Why employer authentication is more important than authenticity

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[00:00:30] Welcome to Episode 77 of the High Volume Hiring Podcast. I am one of your co-hosts, Stephen Rothberg. I'm the founder of College Recruiter Job Search Site, where we believe that every student and recent grad deserves a great career and that it should be easy and inexpensive for employers to hire them. I'm very excited about today's episode, but I'm not going to steal the thunder this time. Instead, I'm going to be polite and I'm going to hand it over to Jeanette to say hello and welcome our guest.

[00:01:10] Hello. You're always polite, Stephen. Hi, everyone. Jeanette Leeds, as you know me, HR tech entrepreneur, and we are here today with JT O'Donnell, and she is the founder and CEO of Work It Daily. So welcome. So happy to have you here today, JT.

[00:01:28] Thank you, Stephen and Jeanette. This should be fun. I'm ready.

[00:01:32] So for Episode 77, we have as a topic, for those who saw the post before, why employer, I can't even say this, I can't even speak today.

[00:01:44] It's not St. Patrick's teaching that. What's going on?

[00:01:46] I've had like four cups of coffee. I think everyone always talks about so important for employers to be authentic, right? You have to be who you are. You don't want to pretend to be something else. So like, I know we were talking beforehand in the green room that you were just on Chad and Cheese podcast talking about this. You're at LinkedIn Connect. Was that last week? And that was a big topic you spoke about. What the heck does that mean?

[00:02:15] And aside from the fact that like, I can't even pronounce it. So fill us in. Like, what is this all about?

[00:02:22] So I saw this trend a while back, and I think I'm really lucky in the sense that I work with job seekers every day. And I've watched the rise of AI on both sides. Right? So when you think about what's happening, it's incredible.

[00:02:34] We had this idea that employers needed to be authentic, you know, starting maybe a decade ago, the employer branding specialists that are on here will will chime in and correct me.

[00:02:43] But we realized pretty quickly that brands needed to start to reveal more of who they were as an employer as a way to attract talent. Right? And I think we all understand that now.

[00:02:51] But there's a whole different layer that's come into play, which is authentication.

[00:02:55] And that is validating you are who you say you are, especially in what is right now the biggest white collar job recession we have ever seen.

[00:03:05] Because the rise of scams and problems are unbelievable.

[00:03:11] And I think a lot of talent organizations, high volume hiring organizations don't understand what's happening to the job seeker over there.

[00:03:18] And so I'm going to give you a great example.

[00:03:21] You know, when I was at Talent Connect, 1800 global talent professionals invitation only sitting there.

[00:03:26] And I was lucky enough to be the only person brought in to speak from the point of the job seeker.

[00:03:30] And I say that because they're very far removed from it.

[00:03:34] You're very far removed from what's really happening to that job seeker.

[00:03:38] And so I actually read a post from a job seeker that had gone up 24 hours before I got there to speak about him going through an entire AI generated process.

[00:03:50] Coming from data science assumed it was completely normal, getting an eight page job offer, right?

[00:03:55] Giving all this information in and finding it a little odd that he hadn't spoken to a human yet.

[00:04:01] Finally, swallowed his pride, called the company and said, can I talk to HR?

[00:04:05] They gave him the email address.

[00:04:06] He messaged HR.

[00:04:07] So can I just confirm this offer is real?

[00:04:09] Immediately responds back.

[00:04:10] No, this is a scam.

[00:04:11] I've gotten 20 of these today.

[00:04:12] Okay.

[00:04:13] So this is a high level individual had been out of work 10 months, you know,

[00:04:17] and this is the kind of thing that's happening all the time.

[00:04:20] And so authentication, we already know you're struggling with authenticating your talent.

[00:04:24] I get that.

[00:04:25] You're doing everything you can to authenticate the people applying to are real,

[00:04:28] but it is also happening on the other side, which is making talent really,

[00:04:32] if you aren't authenticating yourself, they're not clicking, they're not applying,

[00:04:36] they're not engaging because they're so afraid of it.

[00:04:39] Fascinating.

[00:04:40] So at Calder Group, we were hiring a bookkeeper.

[00:04:43] And when you talk about from the employer experience, finding candidates that actually

[00:04:48] aren't real, they're impersonating somebody else, they're an AI bot or whatever.

[00:04:53] I'm about 97% sure that one of our finalists for the accounting role was just somebody.

[00:05:00] And again, it was just like, this is a little bit off.

[00:05:03] This is a little bit off.

[00:05:04] They were like a bunch of red flags.

[00:05:06] And what finally tipped the scales for me was looking her up by name and the address she gave

[00:05:12] and the address didn't exist.

[00:05:14] And her phone number area code was wrong.

[00:05:17] And she had never lived in that area code.

[00:05:19] Like there were things like that.

[00:05:20] And so we ended up rejecting her, it, him, my dog.

[00:05:25] I don't know what it was.

[00:05:27] So what you're saying, JT, is the same thing is happening in reverse, right?

[00:05:32] The candidates.

[00:05:33] So if you're an employer in a high volume kind of environment where you're not like out

[00:05:39] there, like shaking hands and you know, this is a real person and they live down the street

[00:05:44] from you.

[00:05:44] How, what can you do to help those candidates see that this is in fact is your company.

[00:05:51] This is in fact your job opportunity.

[00:05:53] I think you have to be very intentional about your entire candidate experience and understanding

[00:05:58] how it lands.

[00:05:59] So let me give you a beautiful example.

[00:06:00] Many, many companies right now are using AI tools to create a hyper-customized email that

[00:06:05] goes out to a big batch of candidates.

[00:06:07] Yeah.

[00:06:07] And they say, Hey, I think you're a fit for this job.

[00:06:09] If you're interested, could you send me your credentials and your availability for an interview?

[00:06:12] You need to understand that the first time that happens to a job seeker, they drop everything.

[00:06:16] They drop everything, fill it out, send it back.

[00:06:19] And then they tell me, JT, I'm getting an interview.

[00:06:22] We all know the first time they're really being looked at is when they send that information

[00:06:26] back.

[00:06:27] And then that company is deciding whether or not they want to interview them.

[00:06:30] So if they decide not to interview them, nothing happens.

[00:06:33] Do you know what that is to a job seeker?

[00:06:34] That's ghosting.

[00:06:35] Yeah.

[00:06:36] You've just ghosted that candidate and they're going to tell 17 of their friends about the

[00:06:39] horrible experience they just had with that company.

[00:06:41] Because they have no idea that hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands of others got the same email.

[00:06:46] That's it.

[00:06:46] So I have to be the bearer of bad news, right?

[00:06:49] So that piece happens.

[00:06:51] Now let's talk about more of the automation.

[00:06:52] Hey, you've made it past the first piece and we're sending you on to the hiring manager.

[00:06:57] Okay.

[00:06:58] What they heard is I'm getting an interview.

[00:07:00] Yeah.

[00:07:00] That's not what happens.

[00:07:01] Right.

[00:07:02] That hiring manager is going to look and then decide who to actually call.

[00:07:05] In the age of authentication, the word is communication.

[00:07:10] Never before have we had to think about everything we say and everything we do and how it lands in

[00:07:16] an automated AI generated world.

[00:07:17] If you don't, it is open for misinterpretation and that's exactly what's happening through this

[00:07:23] process with them.

[00:07:24] Hi there.

[00:07:25] I'm Peter Zollman.

[00:07:26] I'm a co-host of the Inside Job Boards and Recruitment Marketplaces podcast.

[00:07:31] And I'm Steven Rothberg and I guess that makes me the other co-host.

[00:07:34] Every other week, we're joined by guests from the world's leading job sites.

[00:07:38] Together, we analyze news about general niche and aggregator job board and recruitment

[00:07:43] marketplaces sites.

[00:07:44] Make sure you sign up and subscribe today.

[00:07:48] That's so, it's so interesting.

[00:07:51] I'm reminded of these times where you see, you know, I'll see this sometimes on social

[00:07:56] media and some posts where it's like, oh, so-and-so is hiring X amount per hour, you

[00:08:00] know, and it's again, big high volume kind of companies.

[00:08:02] And it might be Amazon, Walmart, whatever.

[00:08:05] Like it's interesting because what we're saying here is that, you know, a lot of times, some

[00:08:10] are very obviously scams and people may be aware of them.

[00:08:12] But now because of the personalization through automation and AI is just next level, right?

[00:08:19] So you're saying once someone's in the process of being very, very clear in what you're saying

[00:08:25] and doing, which makes a ton of sense.

[00:08:28] But any tips, like taking a step back even earlier from a candidate side, right?

[00:08:34] Like what should they be looking out for?

[00:08:37] Or again, I mean, as an employer, this is not my content that's going out, right?

[00:08:41] It's the scammers.

[00:08:41] It's this or that.

[00:08:42] Like, is there other ways that you've started to see to combat that, which is a little tricky,

[00:08:49] right?

[00:08:49] Because it's sort of like, how do I stop this, you know, noise that I don't have necessarily

[00:08:54] control over, but any tips there?

[00:08:57] Yeah.

[00:08:58] So the first thing that I tell people is be really open and honest and promote the fact

[00:09:02] that you're using AI.

[00:09:03] Because the truth is job seekers want it as much as you do.

[00:09:07] They understand that AI is here to try to make the process faster.

[00:09:11] So when you're really honest that you're using an AI bot, or this is an auto-generated message,

[00:09:15] but if you message back, this is what's going to happen.

[00:09:18] That is where you gain the respect.

[00:09:20] Also make it very clear.

[00:09:22] Here's where eventually you will talk to a human.

[00:09:25] Right.

[00:09:25] You can explain the stages and say, you know, for the first three stages of this process,

[00:09:29] you will not be talking to a human.

[00:09:30] If you get this far, you will be.

[00:09:32] Just managing their expectations is going to go so far in you getting them to do the things

[00:09:38] you want to do.

[00:09:39] And let me tell you why that's important.

[00:09:40] Because I mentioned the first time that they have that happen to them and they get ghosted

[00:09:43] or they feel burned, not only do they tell 17 people, every subsequent employer that tries

[00:09:48] that technique with them, they will not respond to.

[00:09:51] So really great talent.

[00:09:52] I hear recruiters say to me all the time, I can't get the good ones to respond to me.

[00:09:55] Yes, because previous employers burned them and now you're paying the price.

[00:09:59] Right.

[00:09:59] So you're going to have to really get at them and say, look, you know, this is AI, but

[00:10:04] if you do this and respond, this is what happened next.

[00:10:06] Or quite frankly, start thinking about certain places where you want to lead with the human

[00:10:11] interaction and then allow AI to take over.

[00:10:13] And I know that sounds crazy, but as we really progress with all of these tools this year and

[00:10:17] this becomes so standard practice, we're going to be able to look at those places where maybe

[00:10:20] a human or a high touch point could carry so much weight with them that we could get them

[00:10:26] to do the rest of it.

[00:10:27] Let me give you a great example.

[00:10:29] They hate autonomous interviewing, the video interviewing where I'm sent a link and I get

[00:10:35] asked questions.

[00:10:36] I have no control over what I'm being asked.

[00:10:38] I'm being recorded and I don't know where my likeness is going.

[00:10:41] I don't know what they're doing with that video.

[00:10:43] So very quickly, you're going to see that a big prediction on my end.

[00:10:46] People might come at me later.

[00:10:48] That will go away.

[00:10:49] And instead, are you ready for this?

[00:10:51] The candidates will produce authenticated video and send it to you.

[00:10:54] That is going to be a new normal because that's the new interview.

[00:10:58] Why do we do interviews to authenticate somebody is who they say they are?

[00:11:01] Very quickly, job seekers are going to go, wait.

[00:11:03] So if I record a bunch of videos answering the five most common questions you're going

[00:11:06] to ask me anyways, and I can send that to you in a URL and you can watch it, that's going

[00:11:10] to get me in faster.

[00:11:11] Oh, I'm on board because I'm controlling my brain and my message.

[00:11:15] So this stuff is going to shift really, really fast.

[00:11:18] And I think we'll just get smarter to know which side should do what.

[00:11:21] But in the interim, you've got to be really intentional and clear.

[00:11:25] So I think the video interview that you're talking about that the candidates really hate

[00:11:29] is the asynchronous.

[00:11:31] Yes.

[00:11:31] It's the one way.

[00:11:32] The recruiter records one video and it's sent out a thousand times, a hundred thousand times

[00:11:38] or whatever, right?

[00:11:40] It's kind of the traditional hire view type of process.

[00:11:44] And let's talk about that.

[00:11:45] I had a client go through it with a company and there were five different positions that he

[00:11:50] was available for.

[00:11:51] He had to do it five times.

[00:11:53] Yeah.

[00:11:55] He's like, you can't just take what I did and replace it.

[00:11:58] Nope.

[00:11:59] Yeah.

[00:11:59] So which leads me into the three least favorite words in the English language, ATS.

[00:12:07] Before we move on, I need to let you know about my friend, Mark Pfeffer and his show, PeopleTech.

[00:12:14] If you're looking for the latest on product development, marketing, funding, big deals

[00:12:19] happening in talent acquisition, HR, HCM, that's the show you need to listen to.

[00:12:26] Go to the Work Defined Network, search up PeopleTech, Mark Pfeffer.

[00:12:31] You can find them anywhere.

[00:12:36] And so some of that might be simply because they're using an ATS and it's not flexible

[00:12:41] enough for it to share files between applications.

[00:12:44] You know, the end of the day, the employer selects the ATS, the accountability is the employers

[00:12:48] for stuff like that.

[00:12:50] But is a strategy that employers should use to bolster their authentication, to have candidates

[00:12:59] apply on the employer's career site, the ATS versus, say, a job board?

[00:13:04] Or do you feel like that doesn't matter?

[00:13:07] Or maybe you feel like, no, you know what?

[00:13:10] Actually, the candidate knows ZipRecruiter or Indeed or LinkedIn better than XYZ Corporation.

[00:13:15] So you're better off having them apply in a job board.

[00:13:18] So I'm going to take the liberty of telling you what it's going to look like in two years,

[00:13:21] not 10.

[00:13:22] Okay.

[00:13:23] And I think that this is where ATS platforms need to be really, really careful.

[00:13:27] So if we understand what's happening, the data that we're getting, right, is not good

[00:13:32] data.

[00:13:33] So you have people making up resumes, making up things about themselves, but that's garbage

[00:13:37] in, garbage out.

[00:13:38] Yeah.

[00:13:38] So that data set by default is not strong.

[00:13:41] If you know anything about AI, you're hearing a lot about large language models, which is the

[00:13:47] way AI works really well is when it has a whole language.

[00:13:50] What's very quickly going to happen with video, because you've heard a picture's worth a thousand

[00:13:56] words, right?

[00:13:57] Well, video's worth a million.

[00:13:59] So with the way the technology is right now, imagine this world.

[00:14:03] Recruiter and hiring manager record a chat, a chat of what they need in this candidate.

[00:14:10] Okay.

[00:14:10] And they're talking to each other.

[00:14:12] Yeah.

[00:14:12] They're on Google chat, right?

[00:14:14] But it's recorded.

[00:14:15] Okay.

[00:14:16] They take that video audio and put it through a tool.

[00:14:21] And that tool comes up with some clips and tells you exactly what the job is.

[00:14:25] Think about that.

[00:14:25] This is what large language model is going to do.

[00:14:27] An accurate job description, right?

[00:14:30] All there with video clips of the recruiter and the hiring manager talking about it.

[00:14:35] That becomes, forget job posting.

[00:14:37] That's the new job entity.

[00:14:40] Now you've got talent out there.

[00:14:42] This is going to be a world where you're going to get on your phone and like a diary, you're

[00:14:46] going to be like, here's what I did today.

[00:14:48] Here's what I worked on.

[00:14:49] Here's what I liked about this or that.

[00:14:51] That is going to all be stored up and become your living resume, your living document and

[00:14:57] authentication of who you are.

[00:14:59] And now this large language model on both sides will sit in a world where the recruiter is

[00:15:03] saying, this is who I'm looking for and it can go out and find that person and match them up.

[00:15:08] Why is that huge?

[00:15:09] Because no longer does your resume, which is the history of what you're done, dictate

[00:15:14] whether or not you can get this job.

[00:15:15] If you can talk about it and you can validate and authenticate and prove and provide the evidence

[00:15:20] that you can do it, you will be matched with the job.

[00:15:23] That's what's going to start to happen in two years.

[00:15:26] Yeah, that's what we're already seeing.

[00:15:28] And I think that's what's been exciting for me.

[00:15:30] I get it's a little scary, but being on the job seeker technology side and the employer

[00:15:35] technology side, and I'm watching what these two sides are doing.

[00:15:37] This is where it's ending.

[00:15:39] This is what's happening next.

[00:15:40] And so my advice to ATS systems is you need to start thinking right now about how you're

[00:15:46] going to deal with this new large language model, how you're going to capture that because

[00:15:50] all that old content you have isn't accurate.

[00:15:53] It's not a good source to create and leverage the AI tools.

[00:15:55] Right.

[00:15:56] Well, it's so much what you're saying.

[00:15:58] It's like that snapshot of not just a day in the life of a candidate and the hiring manager

[00:16:04] and recruiter, right?

[00:16:05] It's like multiple days, right?

[00:16:07] It's like, this is what's real.

[00:16:09] You talk about being completely authentic and like what's real, like on both sides.

[00:16:16] It's, and then just having AI magically match it up.

[00:16:20] You nailed it.

[00:16:21] And authenticated.

[00:16:22] And authenticated.

[00:16:24] Authenticated.

[00:16:25] You know, they're both real because the technology will be able to validate that.

[00:16:29] Hey, this isn't a bot.

[00:16:30] This isn't somebody made up.

[00:16:31] Hey, they said this in the last 30 days, right?

[00:16:33] There's so much.

[00:16:34] This is all going to be able to do that ATS can't do right now as it is.

[00:16:38] As it's so.

[00:16:39] You're going to watch a lot of disruption in the space.

[00:16:40] And I'm here for it.

[00:16:41] I am here for the death of the resume.

[00:16:43] I am.

[00:16:45] Wow.

[00:16:46] Wow.

[00:16:46] So, um, somebody who's going to celebrate at a funeral.

[00:16:49] That's not, uh, it's not, uh, it's not, not something that I thought we were going to get

[00:16:53] into in this conversation, but JT, it has been.

[00:16:57] As always a pleasure.

[00:16:58] I'm so happy also that, uh, that LinkedIn is going to be giving you 25% of the gross revenues

[00:17:04] on this new product.

[00:17:05] I wish.

[00:17:06] And, uh, if not, I can create a fake document that you can probably get authenticated someplace

[00:17:11] and you can go for it.

[00:17:13] Jeanette is awesome.

[00:17:14] Uh, is always awesome.

[00:17:16] And we'll, uh, we'll huddle up again in two weeks.

[00:17:19] Until next time.

[00:17:20] Thank you, JT.

[00:17:21] This is great.

[00:17:22] Thank you.

[00:17:22] Thank you.

[00:17:23] Take care.

[00:17:23] Bye-bye.

[00:17:24] Bye.