Navigating Difficult Bosses: The Power of Tailored Communication and Empathy w/ Mason Farmani

[00:00:00] .

[00:00:27] All right. I want to talk to you for a moment about retaining and developing your workforce is hard. Recruiting is hard. Retaining top employees is hard. Then you've got onboarding, payroll, benefits, time and labor management.

[00:00:40] You need to take care of your workforce and you can only do this successfully if you commit to transforming your employee experience.

[00:00:48] This is where I solve comes in. They empower you to be successful. We've seen it with a number of companies that we've worked with and this is why we partner with them here at work to find.

[00:00:59] We trust them and you should too. Check them out at I solved HCM dot com.

[00:01:05] What is going on everybody? Ryan Leary, William 10 Cup here with the You Should Know podcast. Thank you all for listening and for watching today.

[00:01:16] We have a wonderful guest, Mason Farmani. Did I get that right? Absolutely. I got it right. All right. Mason Farmani. Welcome into the call.

[00:01:26] We're gonna have a good call today about bosses. So we, William, you and I have spoken about this a lot.

[00:01:34] Actually, we had a call. We had an episode we did a couple weeks back maybe a month ago and I kind of feel bad because I threw my bosses, my old bosses under the table and I don't think I've recovered from the trauma of making them feel bad.

[00:01:51] Well, the question was, do you ever remember a moment where your boss made you feel where you felt belonged?

[00:02:01] So it was a tough question. It was. It was a tough question and you were like, I don't think I've ever felt belonged.

[00:02:09] I felt, yeah not even just at work. I just don't belong. Yeah, it put me, yeah, it was a question. Like I wanted to just answer the question, Mason, right?

[00:02:24] But I couldn't. I'm like, huh? Like it made me actually think. He went through his jobs like from high school and he's going through his jobs. You can see that he's going through his jobs. No, no, no.

[00:02:36] It made for a really crappy podcast because unless you're watching, you didn't hear a thing. Everyone just sat there in silence and they're waiting for me. I'm just like, hmm.

[00:02:47] I couldn't come up with an answer and I felt awful and I still think about that. No, no, no. Look, there's good bosses. There's bad bosses.

[00:02:56] We're going to talk about how to deal with the bad boss. Is that what we're doing today? That's the difficult focus. Yeah, difficult boss.

[00:03:03] And Mason's an expert. He consults with people on several things. He'll tell us a little bit more about his company, but he's in this discussion around difficult bosses is tied to several other things.

[00:03:18] Right. It's not just that you have a difficult boss. We've all ran into difficult bosses and we can define that in a lot of different ways because it can be subjective from person to person.

[00:03:29] But Mason, why don't you tell us a little bit about because your company, your consulting company, you go into companies and basically help them and help them not just with difficult bosses but with other things.

[00:03:41] Sure. Sure. Well, first of all, thank you so much for inviting me to be on your show. It's my pleasure to be here. So, you know, when I went to school, I studied industrial psychology.

[00:03:54] I know. And yeah, so I and this was years ago without dating myself. I just said, you know, this is years ago. But, you know, it gave me a lens to look at things that, you know, in the corporate world and also in the personal world.

[00:04:15] And so for years and years I owned companies and I both through acquisitions and organic growth. I made them thriving companies and the last company that I owned that I sold was a global company with presence in Dubai and Paris and London and all of the West.

[00:04:42] So I always managed people and, you know, I owned and operated them because I wanted to be involved and I interviewed every single person that worked for us, which was a daunting task.

[00:04:57] But I believe that you can hire one person that does not belong. And it upsets the apple cart. Right.

[00:05:06] So then a few years ago, I decided that I wanted to really make an influence at a different level. So I sold those companies and what I do now is I do corporate and personal coaching.

[00:05:18] So all the experiences that I've gained over the years and all the education and everything else that I did along the way contributes to what I do with my clients.

[00:05:29] And so among the many things I do, one of them is I walk into organizations that have issues that have either in transition, they're growing or they're challenging.

[00:05:48] They're they have challenges. And one of them that is apropos to this conversation is when especially at a high level employees and founders or CEOs that are at odds with each other.

[00:06:06] And, you know, and these people were hired at some point because they there was a thought that they all got along and they all work together and everything was going to be beautiful.

[00:06:18] At least there was a dream of it. Right. Because we don't hire people thinking, oh my God, they're going to be so terrible.

[00:06:25] I'm going to hire.

[00:06:28] I'm going to buck the culture and change. Yeah, right.

[00:06:33] So then what happens that along the way something goes straight. Something doesn't mesh anymore.

[00:06:42] And so what I do is I come in to these organizations. And one of the first things that these people notice is that their productivity of everybody's gone down because they're dealing with so many emotional traumas and problems.

[00:06:58] They don't get along, whatever it is I'm saying, a and they hear B, and then they go after B and then we're not aligned. Right.

[00:07:07] So the first issue usually is in productivity and efficiency. But then the most important one is that everybody's miserable. Right.

[00:07:17] Right. Yeah, they go to they go home and they have that misery. Follow them to their personal life. Oh, yeah.

[00:07:26] And that's I've seen just through the years. Not only does that make for a really unhappy workplace, one, it affects your home life.

[00:07:36] Oh yeah. With your spouse, right? Like divorce and all that stuff.

[00:07:41] But coming back to work that next day or next week or God forbid you take a vacation and you're complaining your whole vacation and you were just on a beach for 10 days and then you come back to work.

[00:07:53] You don't want to deal with the work stuff that has been happening and you disassociate more. Yeah, that's what I see.

[00:08:02] That's I've been in that situation where you just are, you know, like I can remember this is years ago at a staffing firm went on the honeymoon.

[00:08:11] Like I didn't like it when I was there. I went on my honeymoon. I came back.

[00:08:16] Set up all my boss said was one thing. I'm gone. That was it. Yeah, that was it. I didn't want to be there anymore and I didn't even want to have a conversation.

[00:08:26] So that was just a staffing firm at the executive level that has a lot of repercussions of what really happened. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:08:35] So, yeah, I mean, I think you said something really good at the beginning of our talks about, you know, when was it the last time that you belonged?

[00:08:46] Yeah, I just kind of go try to figure that out if you're feeling judged by both of you now.

[00:08:53] Yeah, or bad bosses. We want to call it like kids would then they have that in common. They don't make you feel like you belong right?

[00:09:03] Yeah. And feeling belong one of the things that contributes to feeling like you belong to the organization is when your contributions and your opinions are not really there.

[00:09:16] Right. Right. If your boss brings you in says, Gosh, I'm thinking about starting this new division and I want your opinion. Right. And then really told you about it and intently listened right?

[00:09:29] Not that it's I'm just going to make you feel good and I'm not going to listen to you no matter what.

[00:09:34] But then really listened and repeated what you're saying and then followed on some it doesn't have to agree with everything you're saying. Right. Then you're like, Oh my God, I feel a little ownership here.

[00:09:44] I feel like my opinion matters. And as soon as you feel like that's your opinion, you're going to have to change your opinion.

[00:09:54] Right. Right. Then you're like, Oh my God, I feel a little ownership here. I feel like my opinion matters. And as soon as you feel like you have a little bit of an ownership there, guess what? You belong. Right. Right. You feel like I belong here and this is where my opinion matters.

[00:10:14] Right. Right. So they kind of look at that meeting and you feel like you want to contribute even more. The best boss is the boss who has a certain amount of insecurity.

[00:10:26] Understand that. Right. Because we've got to look at that. That's exactly right. Look at them. What is happening in them that they're acting like this? Right. Right.

[00:10:37] So there's certain insecurities. And then I always say that in the work environment, it's really helpful to put our somatic lenses to figure out what traumas people go through during work and what traumas gone through their lives to be this way.

[00:10:57] And even if you were working for someone, if you put on that lens to look at it and say empathetically, why is it that my boss is this way? Right. Right. And rather than just taking everything so personally that he's just he doesn't like me.

[00:11:16] He doesn't have any good opinion of me. So just kind of like, okay, so this is how he acts. This is how he likes to be treated. Right. Rather than just kind of sticking with whatever it is that we want to always do.

[00:11:31] This is how my boss likes to be treated. And gosh, I wonder what has happened to him that he is like that. But not my job. But I will treat him the way he likes to be treated rather than the way I want to be treated. Right.

[00:11:50] So I can tell you this story, Mason. Get your take.

[00:11:54] So in high school, I thought I wanted to be an industrial psychologist. So so there's a lot there.

[00:12:04] Well, so I reached out to a network of network folks and I meet guys in Dallas that works for Xerox, Team Xerox.

[00:12:14] And I scheduled a time, you know, like 17, 18 years old. And I just said, hey, listen, I'm thinking about this path and I'd love to come and meet you and just kind of learn about your journey, whatever.

[00:12:23] Drive to downtown Dallas. He's about 30 minutes late to the appointment and he's wearing sweats. So he shows up. I'm like in a suit, you know, like I'm my Easter clothes, you know, I'm ready.

[00:12:37] And so I said, OK, just tell me what do you do? Like, what's the bit? And he goes, here's the thing, William, what you have to learn about what we do.

[00:12:50] Now it's about understanding employees and getting them to productivity, max productivity, the faster, the better.

[00:12:58] He goes, and this is the 80s. I'll date myself. He goes, we have employees that have cocaine problems, that have alcohol problems, marriage problems, they have gambling problems, whatever the problem is.

[00:13:11] My job is to find out what that is. Take them out of work. Go go play golf, go do go play handball, whatever, go do something and start to work with them to find out an unbiased job.

[00:13:23] To then get them back to productivity. That's the job. And I can have fun with them because we are going to sit in an office.

[00:13:31] Because that's it. Then it looks like it's a box and people are clam up and it becomes different. I'm going to take them out and understand what's going on in your life.

[00:13:40] I fell in love with that concept and I didn't do that obviously. But when I was watching Billions, the TV show on HBO, they have an inside psychologist.

[00:13:51] And it brought me right back to the, I can't remember his name, with Team Xerox, but I'm like, that's what she does. She has an office.

[00:14:00] Okay, so it's a little bit different context. But she's about unpacking that person and getting them to their max productivity. Whatever that may be. Define that as you wish.

[00:14:10] So begs the question, like when we deal with difficult bosses and you've done an array of these with your consultant, what are the things that you're going to do to get them back to their full productivity?

[00:14:50] I actually do both right now. They're companies that I'm with, that woman that has that office.

[00:14:59] And figures out and I usually deal with the CEOs and the C-level people where they come in and their issues get played out.

[00:15:10] And then I got to put them in their place so that they walk outside and they don't display that kind of misbehavior to their employees.

[00:15:21] And they have to be strong to be able to do that because they're the people that are...

[00:15:29] I've got to want it.

[00:15:31] So my position is if you've hired me, you want it.

[00:15:35] Yeah.

[00:15:37] After paying you to be there.

[00:15:40] Well, some people, Ryan, some people, especially in the consulting world, they hire you...

[00:15:47] To say yes.

[00:15:49] To say yes. Yeah. So it's not just the hiring. I mean, yes, like I think that's definitely a litmus.

[00:15:54] You got to get past that. There's a consulting fee and you're going to spend money on this. Okay.

[00:15:58] But accepting the advice like you're not getting the most out of your employees because you're domineering.

[00:16:08] Like, okay, let's unpack why you're domineering in a conference room with people. Like, why is that?

[00:16:16] They've got to want that.

[00:16:18] So the way I confront that usually is I say to them, look, you know that I could say yes to you and win your heart and be great with you. Right?

[00:16:31] And you're going to love it.

[00:16:33] Extend the contract for another two years. Yes.

[00:16:35] And then I say, but you know, it's not a good productive use of my resources and my time for you and your company.

[00:16:45] And you have an obligation to your company not to have me say yes. Right.

[00:16:52] So I love that.

[00:16:54] And there's been times where I said, look, if you really want to just hear yeses, I'm not the right person for you.

[00:16:59] I'm here to just really tell you straight out the way it is.

[00:17:03] And if you don't appreciate it, then I'm just not the right person for you.

[00:17:08] That tracks with me because it's been years.

[00:17:12] But basically I would tell clients prospects before we got even into a client relationship.

[00:17:17] I'm going to tell you your baby's ugly.

[00:17:19] You're either going to accept that.

[00:17:21] I see my job as an external consultant.

[00:17:25] As you know, when your baby is not ugly, I'll of course say that as well.

[00:17:30] But I'm not going to play around and try to use 15 different words to say your baby's ugly.

[00:17:37] I'm just going to say your baby's ugly.

[00:17:40] And like, OK, now what do we need to do to kind of go in a different direction?

[00:17:45] Make it better.

[00:17:46] And again, probably I'd say half and half of the CEOs I interacted with when I was doing that, half of them were attracted to that.

[00:17:55] It's like I need somebody in my life that will just cut through all the stuff.

[00:17:59] And half of them were like they didn't want that.

[00:18:03] So there's an art in communication, right?

[00:18:06] We all know that. Right.

[00:18:07] And each one of us would like to be communicated in a certain way.

[00:18:14] And each one of us also, if we're communicated in a different way, we don't hear everything you're saying to us.

[00:18:22] It's a design of a human being. Right?

[00:18:26] And it's very hard to see that as well.

[00:18:30] Oh, I understand.

[00:18:32] When you're not being communicated to properly.

[00:18:34] Exactly. And you miss so much.

[00:18:35] Mason, because you're an IO psychologist, do you think that's something to assess for?

[00:18:44] Because I'm thinking about the Berkman in particular.

[00:18:47] I took the Berkman 100 years ago and it was with my firm.

[00:18:52] So everybody in the firm took it.

[00:18:54] Me and my business partner at the time, one of the things because it broke everything down like how you like it, how they like it, all that stuff.

[00:19:02] And one of the things that we learned about each other is I make decisions in seconds.

[00:19:08] Maybe not the right or wrong, but I just process and make the decision.

[00:19:13] I've already moved on.

[00:19:15] And he was a really reflective, really empathetic, liked to do research, needed time to process, wanted time to process, not needed, and reflective, all of those things.

[00:19:27] So once we learn that, we read this in a report.

[00:19:30] We read this and we read it together.

[00:19:32] It's like, you know what?

[00:19:34] Here's what we're going to do when I make a decision, when I come to a conclusion, I'm just going to tell you what it is.

[00:19:39] And then we'll wait 24 hours or 48 hours to talk about it.

[00:19:45] That'll give you enough time to do you.

[00:19:47] And I won't be stressed out because you're not going to like I am.

[00:19:52] And you won't be stressed out because I'm forcing you to make a decision quickly.

[00:19:58] Our relationship from that point, it spiked because I understood how he liked his communication.

[00:20:06] He understood how I like my communication too.

[00:20:09] So long-winded kind of a bit to understand your take on assessments and understanding kind of how people like things.

[00:20:18] Yeah, totally.

[00:20:19] So all right.

[00:20:21] I want to talk to you for a moment about retaining and developing your workforce is hard.

[00:20:26] Recruiting is hard.

[00:20:28] Retaining top employees is hard.

[00:20:30] Then you've got onboarding payroll benefits, time and labor management.

[00:20:34] You need to take care of your workforce and you can only do this successfully if you commit to transforming your employee experience.

[00:20:42] This is where I saw comes in.

[00:20:44] They empower you to be successful.

[00:20:45] We've seen it with a number of companies that we've worked with.

[00:20:49] And this is why we partner with them here at work to find.

[00:20:53] We trust them and you should too.

[00:20:55] Check them out at I solved HCM dot com.

[00:20:59] There's a new actually assessment test that a lot of people take.

[00:21:05] It's called disc the ISE.

[00:21:07] You probably heard that.

[00:21:09] That's valuable.

[00:21:10] And it's valuable for you to take it for you first.

[00:21:15] You got to know what is what are you made out of.

[00:21:19] What are your ingredients once you get to connect with who you really are.

[00:21:25] Then what happens is that other people really become faster study quicker study.

[00:21:32] Right. I can look at somebody and one of the things I always recommend to my clients.

[00:21:37] I also do a lot of executive coaching and I do also is when I get into the environment the first few minutes I'm safe.

[00:21:47] Right. I'm completely saying hello and all that but I'm just really studying what's happening around me and who is doing what.

[00:21:57] How are they communicating.

[00:22:00] And during that first few minutes I know from that point on how to communicate with each person.

[00:22:10] Right.

[00:22:12] That's something that I think that our employees should learn our employers for sure got to learn because productivity is really up to them.

[00:22:23] They're responsible accountable for productivity so they got to know how their employees would like to be communicated to one person is a social person.

[00:22:34] Like I've had employees that are totally totally type A.

[00:22:38] I've also had employees that they like to be in a dark room.

[00:22:42] They like to just be left alone.

[00:22:44] They are socially not capable of interacting right.

[00:22:49] But I'm like OK but this person is great at what they do.

[00:22:52] You know by all means I'm not going to invite them to every social settings.

[00:22:57] I'm going to invite them but I'm not going to force them to come in to any social setting.

[00:23:01] They're going to be uncomfortable sweating the whole time.

[00:23:03] Why. So you and they look at me every time like oh my god thank you so much for not making me come here.

[00:23:10] I was like yeah.

[00:23:13] That is ideal.

[00:23:15] It goes down and guess what he feels belonged.

[00:23:19] Right. Right.

[00:23:21] Right. Right.

[00:23:24] So how Mason how do you handle this is this is so fascinated by this conversation that my mind's going everywhere but how do you handle an executive or what's the process I should say when an executive comes in

[00:23:40] and you don't believe in what you're talking about.

[00:23:43] For example meditation.

[00:23:45] Yes. Right.

[00:23:47] Maybe I'm not a big believer in meditation.

[00:23:49] So when someone says let's go to a meditation retreat let's like you're a little weird.

[00:23:56] How do you brain.

[00:23:58] Yes. I reason I don't do you meditation meditation.

[00:24:02] I literally would have to take a quail or something like that or 300 milligrams conversation.

[00:24:12] To self medicate if I want to actually meditate I'd have to do 300 milligrams of animals and then I believe I would get to a state or maybe some shrooms where I could Ketamine where I could actually focus on.

[00:24:26] I can't. I've.

[00:24:28] Yeah. That's my brain.

[00:24:30] I can't.

[00:24:32] I wasn't thinking of any of that.

[00:24:35] But I because my ego I had to then think about myself like I've been invited to meditation before I've been invited to yoga camps and things like that.

[00:24:46] All right. So how do you handle William who doesn't believe in them in the power of meditation.

[00:24:51] I've never done it but how do you an executive comes in there mandated to come see you and they're just like they're looking at you thinking you're a quack like you're this is the first of all handled that because I can see that happening all the time.

[00:25:06] So first of all I would say and I'm not calling you a quack but we'll put it.

[00:25:11] I think meditation is useful in a lot of different cases and for a lot of people.

[00:25:17] Right.

[00:25:18] 100 percent.

[00:25:20] You can't say 100 percent.

[00:25:23] Not after all that.

[00:25:25] For a lot of people.

[00:25:27] Everybody.

[00:25:28] A lot of people.

[00:25:30] That was the key word.

[00:25:32] He didn't say.

[00:25:34] Operating.

[00:25:35] I would ask that executive.

[00:25:40] What is it that you're trying to accomplish.

[00:25:43] Right. Are you trying to accomplish.

[00:25:47] I don't know more productivity through innovation.

[00:25:53] You know people bonding with each other.

[00:25:56] Are you trying to get them to turn the noise off so they can be better at their work.

[00:26:02] Are you right.

[00:26:03] So you got to figure out what gap are we filling first.

[00:26:05] Right.

[00:26:06] So I would ask him that first and then I would say like you understand that that exercise is really good for a lot of people but not so good for a lot of other people.

[00:26:19] Find those activities that appeals to those other kinds of people that have the same outcome but it's not sitting down and turning the noise off.

[00:26:33] Right.

[00:26:34] Maybe if you brought those people for example and gave them canvases and painting and you know something to paint on these canvases would have the same effect.

[00:26:46] They're still disconnected from their minds.

[00:26:49] Right.

[00:26:50] And they're actually now doing something creative in their mind which we know.

[00:26:56] Right. Once you turn that part of the brain on the other analytical part of the brain gets less activity.

[00:27:04] So it's all the same as meditation or bring them to the nature and see if they want to do I don't know if they're really active people.

[00:27:15] See if they want to do jumping around or doing something.

[00:27:21] Right. Yeah.

[00:27:22] So it's a good exactly would be open to doing all of that.

[00:27:27] The problem is that he probably has benefited from meditation and he thinks that everybody will.

[00:27:35] So right. Right. But you know what's funny is it Mason in both those instances of communication and also in this getting unlocking your brain to be more productive in whatever ways that that is both of those comes down to as you've already said understanding the person understanding the audience right.

[00:27:57] So know thy audience and understanding your employees understanding executives understanding the board and understanding what makes them tick and then tailor making something that the outcome is is what it's what's important.

[00:28:12] How you get to the outcome.

[00:28:14] Not as you got to meet your audience where they are.

[00:28:19] Right.

[00:28:20] It's like the same thing with public speaking right.

[00:28:22] If you're a good public speaker, you'll spend the first few minutes trying to figure out where is everybody.

[00:28:29] What is the knowledge of everybody.

[00:28:31] Right.

[00:28:32] And it's just reading the room.

[00:28:34] You really yeah comics do this all the time.

[00:28:38] Yeah, they'll tell their first they'll tell their first joke or two and they'll be okay.

[00:28:43] So this is what I got to deal with.

[00:28:45] Yeah.

[00:28:46] Now in organizations we have tools available to us.

[00:28:51] You can make people take tests.

[00:28:53] You know, I mean I've always done that right.

[00:28:56] It's like you know when you first hire people by the way you have the most leverage later on making them take tests a little more difficult.

[00:29:06] That's why you have to do a lot of things as an employer and also as an employee right before you get hired.

[00:29:16] That's where both sides have the most leverage.

[00:29:20] So as an employer, you can have them take tests.

[00:29:24] You spend a hundred bucks upfront.

[00:29:26] $150 upfront and a lot of good assessment tastes tests that they're there.

[00:29:31] And you like look at things and you just figure out my god this is not even a good fit for the organization.

[00:29:38] Why do I want to bring somebody like that here?

[00:29:41] Right.

[00:29:43] One of the things that's worth mentioning right now is, you know, cultures of organizations always gets trickled down from the top.

[00:29:54] Right.

[00:29:55] So if you if you run into or if you go to an organization that's like 500 employees and you walk in and the receptionist is straightforward, the little on the root side, I always say you got to know that the CEO on top is pretty much similar to this person.

[00:30:14] Is that why?

[00:30:16] Because it's what's accepted.

[00:30:18] You are what you are, you know what you accept.

[00:30:21] And again, the top has set that forth on what's willing or what they're willing to accept and not accept.

[00:30:29] And culture, so many people don't understand culture in general, but they don't understand the hourglass of culture that there's new inputs.

[00:30:37] And then there's things that are going out of culture.

[00:30:40] That's all still directed by the time.

[00:30:43] And that's true.

[00:30:44] And people hire people that are like them.

[00:30:49] Right. Oh, so I mean, you know, you walk into want to buy a car, you're going to gravitate towards the salesperson that are like you.

[00:30:56] Right.

[00:30:57] So like people always hire people like them.

[00:31:01] And then those people hire other people that are like them.

[00:31:06] Right.

[00:31:08] Homogenous.

[00:31:11] So if you well, I'll tell you, I'll tell you the upside of that.

[00:31:16] Of course, you'll both hate this.

[00:31:18] But the upside of that is that everything's easier because they all go to the same country club.

[00:31:26] They all were in the same school.

[00:31:28] They're all in the same fraternity.

[00:31:29] They're all middle aged white guys.

[00:31:31] There's no conflict.

[00:31:33] It's easier until it's not.

[00:31:35] And then it hits the fan and then it just tanks.

[00:31:38] It just tanks.

[00:31:39] There's no safety net.

[00:31:41] I see how you build companies.

[00:31:43] I mean, I'm not making a business case for it.

[00:31:47] Here's how I got there.

[00:31:49] I looked at a Silicon Valley VC firm.

[00:31:52] This is 10 years ago and it went to the team part partners where I was team part and it was all the same guy.

[00:31:59] They had differences in their haircuts and eye color, some other things.

[00:32:04] But it was all the same guy.

[00:32:05] And immediately I got angry and then a part of me then get, you know what?

[00:32:10] That's gotta be very easy.

[00:32:11] Like that's a whole bit.

[00:32:12] It's gotta be easy.

[00:32:13] They have to agree a lot.

[00:32:14] But that's also the problem.

[00:32:16] You're looking at the problem.

[00:32:18] I know, I know.

[00:32:19] I appreciate that.

[00:32:20] But there's also a problem.

[00:32:22] It's the same hiring somebody who is a yes person.

[00:32:26] Right.

[00:32:27] Where is the diversity in that?

[00:32:31] By diversity, I mean thought diversity.

[00:32:35] Right.

[00:32:36] Right.

[00:32:37] Right.

[00:32:38] So yeah.

[00:32:39] Where is the?

[00:32:40] I think you have to have conflict to have innovation.

[00:32:45] There's got to be some level of I agree with you.

[00:32:48] I hear you.

[00:32:49] But I think this and then there's some type of rainstorm.

[00:32:52] I think that can't a brainstorm.

[00:32:55] That's a brain breeze.

[00:32:57] Yeah.

[00:32:58] Actually, we should use that.

[00:32:59] I like that.

[00:33:00] That's the title.

[00:33:01] That's the title.

[00:33:02] That's great.

[00:33:03] This is the brain brings with me.

[00:33:04] Right.

[00:33:05] Do you have a question?

[00:33:06] Because I have one.

[00:33:07] I've got a lot of questions, but I'll let you go first.

[00:33:10] OK.

[00:33:11] So what's your take on hiring mavericks?

[00:33:15] So and I'm thinking of the in our industry is a wonderful man named Jerry Crispin.

[00:33:21] And I'm thinking of the.

[00:33:25] And his boss basically said, Go break ship.

[00:33:30] I'll protect you.

[00:33:31] Go bounce around.

[00:33:32] Find out what's being not being done well.

[00:33:35] And it was all in recruiting.

[00:33:37] So it was all in town acquisition and pre hire and all that stuff.

[00:33:40] He said, Go break stuff.

[00:33:42] And he protected him like he had a so he hired a maverick.

[00:33:46] He knew he was a maverick.

[00:33:47] He said, Go break stuff.

[00:33:50] And he protected him like he had a so he hired a maverick.

[00:33:53] He knew he was a maverick.

[00:33:54] There's a known quantity, knew what he was getting, but he protected them.

[00:33:58] And so is there first of all in your work, do you see people seek out mavericks in that sense?

[00:34:09] Second part of that is, is there any relationship between a person that is a maverick?

[00:34:15] We can define that a little bit more and a difficult boss.

[00:34:22] Like like I have this bit you because you've got a PhD.

[00:34:27] I think what college did you go to?

[00:34:30] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:34:31] And I owe psychology, right?

[00:34:33] Everything comes down to what school you went to and what professors were on your thesis.

[00:34:37] So, I've spoken the same page, Mason.

[00:34:45] I've spoken SIAP three times and in every case there's clusters of school.

[00:34:51] Like there's a University of Tulsa, there's UCLA like.

[00:34:55] Yes, maybe not to the level I'm saying.

[00:34:59] So, is there any it's like what I think of teachers, professors in particular.

[00:35:07] In my experience, there were professors that were great teachers and there were professors that were great researchers.

[00:35:15] And I said all the time when I was in college, I always said, why don't you just split these two?

[00:35:20] Let the researchers go research.

[00:35:22] Let the teachers go teach.

[00:35:24] Why are we forcing one to do the other?

[00:35:28] So, again, I think about those as renegades and those mavericks.

[00:35:32] I think to myself, do you see in your work and in your in your in your experiences?

[00:35:38] Do you see people seek those folks out?

[00:35:40] And if so, is there any relationship whatsoever between those folks and difficult bosses?

[00:35:46] So, I think that since we haven't put a lot of parameters around mavericks, let me see if I understand that correctly.

[00:35:55] So, you're talking about people that would come in and cause breakdowns so they can cause breakthroughs.

[00:36:04] That's exactly right.

[00:36:08] I myself am one of those people in the sense of I don't believe in rules.

[00:36:14] I understand the rules.

[00:36:16] I just don't believe it.

[00:36:17] I have to say it depends on.

[00:36:19] Yeah.

[00:36:20] Well, you have to understand them in order to break.

[00:36:24] I was his response there was like, yeah.

[00:36:32] OK, we need a longer session here.

[00:36:36] Here's my hourly rate.

[00:36:38] I know all about you.

[00:36:40] I don't think I was obvious.

[00:36:44] But breakthroughs you got you got to the place you got to whether or not it's renegade or maverick like the term breaking.

[00:36:53] So I always come down to the breakthrough.

[00:36:58] Right.

[00:36:59] Yeah.

[00:37:00] So I would say that the organizations that are looking for that, they're either a chaotic organization, somebody who is always believing that we got to just continuously break down to breakthrough.

[00:37:14] Or there's a kind of organization that is actually dealing with challenges.

[00:37:20] Right.

[00:37:21] They're like, you know, we've been around, we've been stagnant.

[00:37:24] We're just we're like our organization is stagnant and there's no such thing as staying in your organization.

[00:37:31] If you're staying stagnant, you're going down.

[00:37:33] Right.

[00:37:34] There is water doesn't stay still.

[00:37:36] So either it's going to get rotten or it's going to change.

[00:37:40] So, so if it's the first one, then they really need help.

[00:37:49] Right. If it's a chaos that is going to be right.

[00:37:52] It's never going to survive.

[00:37:54] You know how I've seen that play out.

[00:37:57] Mason is it they didn't say chaos.

[00:38:01] They said change.

[00:38:04] Change like they nothing could ever stand still because they were addicted to.

[00:38:09] OK, we need to we need to innovate.

[00:38:11] We need to change and even set it like that.

[00:38:14] We need to change.

[00:38:15] We need to change this process with customer.

[00:38:17] We change this.

[00:38:18] And I came away from that believing that they were just addicted to change for change sake.

[00:38:25] But I think your chaos word is a little bit better.

[00:38:27] Yeah, because once you mix those two change and chaos, you've got to there's an issue.

[00:38:32] Right.

[00:38:33] Because yes, change has been known to be good for human brain.

[00:38:39] Right.

[00:38:40] If you keep doing the same thing, you're not growing brain cells.

[00:38:44] Right.

[00:38:45] You're right.

[00:38:46] So if you're doing ceremonial stuff every single day, well, ceremony stuff is good for calmness and, you know,

[00:38:56] regulation of the system.

[00:38:58] But then you need to have a certain amount of change in order for you to stay excited about life.

[00:39:04] Right.

[00:39:05] So it's the same thing with work.

[00:39:07] Right.

[00:39:08] Chaos is very different from change.

[00:39:11] Staying on top of the changes in your industry, for example, or, you know, what is it?

[00:39:18] New way.

[00:39:19] What is a destructive way to create better, to create more?

[00:39:24] It's again goes back to output.

[00:39:26] Right.

[00:39:27] If you're doing it because you want to have more of an output, then you've got to look back and say, well, so what changes helps not to just do it to do it.

[00:39:38] So how are you defining chaos in this way?

[00:39:46] So are you defining chaos?

[00:39:48] When you say chaos, I'm thinking the fuckery of leadership.

[00:39:53] Like no one can make a decision if they make a decision.

[00:39:56] They're arguing it's very noticeable to the employee population.

[00:40:00] So I took it right that there's no North Star, that they have no either moral ethical code or moral code, but there's no true North.

[00:40:09] So similar to what you're saying.

[00:40:11] But it's like they've lost their way and they don't have a compass.

[00:40:15] That's what I think to me.

[00:40:17] How do you mediate the two of us on this?

[00:40:19] Because well, what is chaos?

[00:40:22] Hell, you're the expert.

[00:40:25] We're just saying when you said chaos, that's what I heard.

[00:40:29] They don't have a compass and Ryan heard something.

[00:40:31] I don't want to do an interview, but I don't want to turn it into a therapy session.

[00:40:35] But let's do it.

[00:40:37] Right.

[00:40:38] No, no, no, no.

[00:40:40] Let's do it.

[00:40:41] Hey, this is this is free therapy.

[00:40:42] I'm all in.

[00:40:44] So when was the last time you were in a situation where you felt it was chaotic?

[00:40:54] Probably the very recently, like last year.

[00:41:01] Give me the ingredients of what made it chaotic.

[00:41:06] I think probably lack of decision making.

[00:41:15] Decision making and communication.

[00:41:20] Yeah, so you've got two of them right.

[00:41:24] Right.

[00:41:25] I mean, and there's no wrong because that was yours.

[00:41:28] Right.

[00:41:29] Those are the ingredients that you were experiencing.

[00:41:31] So there's right.

[00:41:32] No right or wrong.

[00:41:33] Right.

[00:41:34] So so there is no decision making and there is no communication.

[00:41:40] So there's either lack of communication or maybe even possibly poor communication, you would just say, where people are communicating.

[00:41:49] They're not hidden it on the head.

[00:41:52] Right.

[00:41:53] Which I say that the reality of the people that were involved were not aligned.

[00:42:05] Right.

[00:42:06] They came from different realities.

[00:42:09] I look at this and I call it the clock.

[00:42:12] You call it watch.

[00:42:15] You can't see that right the same thing.

[00:42:19] Right.

[00:42:20] So the reality changes when reality changes.

[00:42:25] The communication suffers because we're not communicating anymore because we're just looking at it.

[00:42:31] And then communication changes.

[00:42:34] The affinity changes, which means I don't really like you because I can't you can't see my way.

[00:42:46] I mean, you look at any relationships, those three things, right.

[00:42:51] Same thing.

[00:42:52] With your partners with work with every time the reality changes.

[00:42:59] What happens is the communication suffers and the affinity goes out.

[00:43:02] When the affinity goes out the door.

[00:43:04] Now I have made up my mind that you don't like me and I don't like you.

[00:43:09] And then it's really falling apart.

[00:43:13] Right.

[00:43:14] Everything is falling apart.

[00:43:15] Right.

[00:43:16] One of the biggest scholars of our time has passed away.

[00:43:20] I don't know if you guys are familiar with him.

[00:43:22] Wayne Dyer said that when you change the way you look at things, what you look at changes.

[00:43:34] I'm going to say that again.

[00:43:36] When you change the way you look at things, what you look at changes.

[00:43:43] Right.

[00:43:45] So that's the title of the show.

[00:43:47] If you are able to actually look at this watch clock thing and then as an expert bring everybody in alignment that they look at it and they say, wow, now I see when you said watch, you meant clock.

[00:44:06] And when I said clock, you meant watch.

[00:44:09] Right.

[00:44:10] So, right.

[00:44:12] We're saying the same thing.

[00:44:13] Exactly.

[00:44:14] Right.

[00:44:15] It's just using different words.

[00:44:16] And I teach this concept in political arenas.

[00:44:22] I teach it in family and emotional healing.

[00:44:27] You know, it's like, okay, so this happened to you but this is how you looked at it as a seven-year-old.

[00:44:33] Now as a 30-year-old, let's look at that same incident and see if we can replace.

[00:44:41] And that's where neuroplasticity and neuroscience comes, right?

[00:44:45] See if we can change the way we looked at it.

[00:44:50] The four-year-old made a decision about the way he or she saw it and that decision has been running the rest of your life.

[00:44:59] But let's as a 30-year-old look at it, see what you see today.

[00:45:04] And then the decision changes and as the decision changes, there's neurons that are starting to fire together differently.

[00:45:14] And then when they fire together, they wire together.

[00:45:17] You do it long enough, there's a new network created.

[00:45:21] And when that new network is created, that becomes your behavior.

[00:45:24] Right?

[00:45:25] So it's the same exact thing, right?

[00:45:29] The reality when it changes.

[00:45:31] And when you're able to look at it differently, then all of a sudden that issue becomes something different.

[00:45:38] And then you get in alignment.

[00:45:41] Sometimes you just need a good guide to bring you along to have you see what it is that is because the guide as an observer should really be able to see what the conflict is.

[00:45:57] Well, in consulting, we used to say the term the force of the trees.

[00:46:03] So when you're in it, you're so close to the tree, you can't see the forest.

[00:46:08] So an outside, I mean, I was a horrible consultant, but when I was consulting, I would tell people about the forest and by and large, it was like, yeah, we've talked about that before.

[00:46:20] Like it was they knew about it, but they just couldn't see it because they were too close to it.

[00:46:25] So I have one last question.

[00:46:30] Ryan does, too.

[00:46:31] So you obviously believe that difficult managers can change.

[00:46:39] I struggle with that concept.

[00:46:44] Yeah, if they don't want to change is like all the other things are in society.

[00:46:49] If they don't want to change, I don't think no, I don't think you can change them.

[00:46:54] It's like at 36, I realize giving people unsolicited advice is a waste of my time.

[00:47:02] At 36, I finally decided at 36.

[00:47:06] Al did that.

[00:47:07] No, no, no.

[00:47:09] Just be very, very clear with this one.

[00:47:14] Fair enough.

[00:47:16] But come to that realization, Ryan.

[00:47:18] Nobody had you for what you were giving away.

[00:47:20] Yeah.

[00:47:21] That's it.

[00:47:22] So I think what you should do, blah, blah, blah.

[00:47:25] OK.

[00:47:26] And I finally said, OK, I'm going to wait when they ask me, hey, William, what do you think?

[00:47:34] Then I'm going to preface it.

[00:47:35] OK.

[00:47:36] You sure you want to hear what comes next and then give them what I think.

[00:47:40] Right.

[00:47:41] So I've learned that.

[00:47:42] And I've learned that.

[00:47:43] I've learned that.

[00:47:45] It's very similar.

[00:47:46] If they're not ready to stop drinking or whatever, it's a waste of time until they decide.

[00:47:51] Now, I'm thinking about that and thinking about difficult bosses or horrible bosses

[00:47:55] and thinking if they don't want to change, if they've not gotten to the point where

[00:48:00] they're going to be able to do that, I'm going to have to wait.

[00:48:04] I'm going to wait for them to decide.

[00:48:06] I'm going to wait for them to decide.

[00:48:08] I'm going to wait for them to decide.

[00:48:10] I'm going to wait for them to decide.

[00:48:12] And I think that's a really good question.

[00:48:14] Right.

[00:48:15] And I think that's a really good question.

[00:48:16] Right.

[00:48:17] Because if they don't want to change, if they've not gotten to the place where

[00:48:21] they want to change, what can we do?

[00:48:25] A great question.

[00:48:26] Right.

[00:48:27] Because I kind of insinuated this at the very beginning when you go to an

[00:48:32] organization and you see a wait the receptionist act a certain way.

[00:48:37] Right.

[00:48:38] So you can have a difficult boss that seems difficult to you.

[00:48:44] But in that culture, they thrive.

[00:48:48] Right.

[00:48:49] Because their boss is that way.

[00:48:51] Right.

[00:48:52] And the expectation to if there's a kind boss and then you've got an

[00:48:58] entire run in the organization, well, they're going to be at odds with

[00:49:03] each other.

[00:49:04] Right.

[00:49:05] So it's probably not going to get hard to begin with.

[00:49:07] Right.

[00:49:08] So you've got to know that that's the culture of this organization.

[00:49:13] And if you are a highly sensitive person, which is actually a personality

[00:49:17] type, you probably know, then you're going to be miserable in that

[00:49:22] organization.

[00:49:23] Right?

[00:49:24] So you've got to keep your eyes open at the very beginning before you

[00:49:29] even start to interview.

[00:49:31] If that receptionist is kind and offers you water and tea and brings

[00:49:37] you in and what else do you need?

[00:49:40] And you're like, wow, yeah, that's an organization.

[00:49:43] That's a good fit for me.

[00:49:44] And if you're the kind of person that you yourself know that I'm a

[00:49:49] mean person and, you know, blah, blah, blah, then you're like,

[00:49:53] well, this is way too nice of an organization for me.

[00:49:57] I'm going to be like, yeah.

[00:50:00] Yeah.

[00:50:01] Yeah.

[00:50:02] Well, Wall Street has a job for you.

[00:50:04] You're good.

[00:50:05] Don't worry about it.

[00:50:06] I think the challenge with that is oftentimes people looking for a job

[00:50:11] are desperate for a job.

[00:50:13] Yeah.

[00:50:14] And so if they get the interview and the call back, they go through

[00:50:17] it.

[00:50:18] They accept whatever.

[00:50:19] They accept whatever it comes through.

[00:50:21] But Mason, the final question.

[00:50:23] Yeah.

[00:50:24] The final question that I wanted to ask is earlier, but I want to ask

[00:50:26] it now.

[00:50:27] I think it's important to kind of ties in how many just off the top of

[00:50:32] your head, proximate of the executives that you work with in this

[00:50:37] way cannot come to a resolution, but they come to the understanding

[00:50:43] that this is not the organization for me or the position.

[00:50:47] I need to remove myself from this role.

[00:50:50] And is that a success point at that point as well?

[00:50:53] I think that the ultimate goal of us as a human being when we come to

[00:50:59] this earth is to have joy.

[00:51:02] I think that's the ultimate.

[00:51:04] Right.

[00:51:05] And if your work is taking that away from you and there there's

[00:51:11] nothing you need to be accountable for.

[00:51:14] Right.

[00:51:15] Because then I emphasize on that.

[00:51:17] Right.

[00:51:18] I think that's the key to our organization.

[00:51:20] Right.

[00:51:21] Because we have to be accountable for situations that are there for us

[00:51:26] to heal something and grow.

[00:51:30] That's our accountability.

[00:51:32] Right.

[00:51:34] If you have used up your opportunity, and by the way,

[00:51:37] same with marriage.

[00:51:38] Right.

[00:51:40] I'm one of the few coaches that when I work with couples,

[00:51:43] I say, this is not working. You guys.

[00:51:45] I'm going to help you get separate.

[00:51:47] I'm like, OK.

[00:51:51] You're paying to help us.

[00:51:53] I am.

[00:51:54] There's no help for you.

[00:51:56] You're good.

[00:51:57] I have the divorce agreement right here.

[00:51:59] You get the house.

[00:52:00] You get the car.

[00:52:02] You work it out based on your personality.

[00:52:04] I know what you want.

[00:52:05] So we got the same thing with the war.

[00:52:07] Right.

[00:52:08] And once you know that your accountability is not at play here.

[00:52:14] Right.

[00:52:15] And it's just the wrong place.

[00:52:17] And I've had a lot of people that I work through this with.

[00:52:21] And then what I do is I actually work with them on how to transition out.

[00:52:26] Because just like how you do the romance thing to get a job,

[00:52:32] there are certain ingredients that you have to have in place

[00:52:35] in order to get out of a job.

[00:52:38] And you don't want to burn your bridges.

[00:52:40] Right.

[00:52:41] You want to make sure that you've done the right thing.

[00:52:43] If there is some mistreatment that needs reporting,

[00:52:46] that's got to be done correctly and done.

[00:52:49] And then also you've got to play your cards right.

[00:52:52] You've got to go to the market.

[00:52:54] You've got to do your interviews.

[00:52:56] You've got to have something in the background

[00:52:59] before you start rocking the boat here.

[00:53:01] But it's ultimately to help them find their place of joy.

[00:53:06] And then you've got to know what you learned.

[00:53:08] So it's in their best interest.

[00:53:10] Same relationships.

[00:53:11] When you get out of a relationship

[00:53:12] and the job is a relationship, right?

[00:53:15] You've got to know what lessons you learned from this job.

[00:53:19] And then you've got to figure out what it is that you want

[00:53:23] in your professional life.

[00:53:25] Where is it that your most contribution is going to be playing out?

[00:53:29] And once you figure that out,

[00:53:32] then whether you call it manifestation,

[00:53:35] whether you call it clarity, whatever it is you want to call it,

[00:53:38] then you can actually start looking for jobs that you want.

[00:53:43] But more importantly, as you go to interviews,

[00:53:45] like that's not the one I want.

[00:53:48] It doesn't matter.

[00:53:49] It may take me two more weeks to interview.

[00:53:52] But yes.

[00:53:55] You know what this reminds me of, Mason,

[00:53:57] is why the number of second marriages had a higher divorce rate.

[00:54:03] Yeah.

[00:54:04] Because they bring the baggage from the first marriage

[00:54:06] into the second marriage.

[00:54:08] Brother, we could talk to you all.

[00:54:10] No, we haven't healed.

[00:54:11] We could talk to you forever.

[00:54:13] Thank you so much for carving out time for us in the audience

[00:54:17] and schooling us on a bunch of different things.

[00:54:19] So I know Ryan and I are really going to enjoy this

[00:54:22] because you just got us to think.