Generational Shifts and Talent Acquisition: The CHRO's New Playbook

[00:00:00] with Ria and Laura on Today. were we talking about their first CHRO study? And yeah, so I butchered that. Tongue twister. To all the CHROs out there. Or chief people officers, chief people ops. There are some synonyms out there. HR managers, head of HR. Nings.

[00:00:33] So let's do some introductions. Laura, would you do us a favor and introduce yourself and then Rhea. Sure, thanks for having us. I'm Laura Kakaro. I'm the chief people officer at Isems. I'm excited to be here. See, my CHRO joke was not about Laura. She's a CPO.

[00:00:53] Very, very different. It's complicated yet not complicated. Rhea? Sure. Hi everyone, I'm Rhea Moss. I lead the insights program at Isems. If you're not familiar with insights, we are the data and research arm of the company. So we do our monthly insights reports.

[00:01:11] We put out on labor market data and job seeker data. And then we also lead up some of our larger studies like the CHRO report that we're gonna talk about today. And Rhea corrected my pronunciation by saying Rhea. She did. Those nice. She did that last time too.

[00:01:26] Yeah, she did that last time too. I wasn't gonna be the one to bring it up, but she said it last time too. It's fair. So all right, why do we study CHROs? What was the bid? How did this come about? Yeah, I mean, that's a great question.

[00:01:39] So like I mentioned, we do all kinds of research of job seekers to just general society and how they're feeling about talent acquisition. We've done a lot of surveys and studies on recruiters, things like CEOs and top executives, but CHROs this is our first time.

[00:01:56] We really kind of went to them and we did research on them just to give you sense also of the size we spoke to and surveyed 1,000 employees. Excuse me. CHROs of companies with 1,000 employees. And we talked to a lot of them.

[00:02:12] And then we also talked to actual employees and talked to sort of alignment of how they're feeling. And really, one of the key themes that we were talking about, and I know Laura can attest to this, is there's just so much on their plate right now

[00:02:25] and it has always been changed, but the change seems like it's really been accelerated in the space. And one of our main questions that I asked that I find interesting was just what is keeping you up at night? And without giving too much of it away

[00:02:36] and I'll ask Laura kind of what keeps her up at night, but also just really the answer was just like everything. There's so much going on. And so that was really kind of the premise behind doing a study of this particular role,

[00:02:48] this kind of head of all of HR and people and eventually town acquisition does roll into it, which is what we focus a lot on. And just all the changes and everything they're going through and just trying to figure out, how are they doing?

[00:03:01] We don't work in that direction. Did you have a hypo-sort? No. Did you have a hypothesis or a thesis going into it? I mean, short answer, everything. Yeah. And to be honest, we were kind of, sometimes we say with the data

[00:03:15] that the uninteresting thing becomes the interesting thing. We were like, what's gonna be the one thing that really bubbles to the top? And hypothesis was right and wrong and that it is sort of everything. It's a laundry list. Right, yeah. Laura, what about yourself?

[00:03:31] Yeah, I mean, this is a fun one for me because it's a little bit of a test of my own hypothesis too. And to Ray as point, we were, this has been fun from start to finish because it was even hard to narrow down the topics

[00:03:45] that we wanted to talk to CHROs about because the world is so vast. And it's just moving so quickly as well. So it's like, we talk about something today is it still relevant tomorrow? And is that what's, and that's really the crux

[00:03:59] of why this report is so compelling because it's not just about, okay, the landscape is changing and there's a lot sitting on everybody's mind but the role of a CHRO in organizations of these sizes where we were doing the survey, it's evolving.

[00:04:14] The way that they need to influence across their peers, the way that their leaders are looking to them to be an advisor, to opine on strategy to do things differently. That's all sitting and it's happening right now. And so it's also really compelling

[00:04:28] for them to build business cases or for others working with CHROs to go and help either get hearts and minds or help move the ball forward on various agendas. So super interesting. So where did you find, and we might get to this later,

[00:04:43] but where did you find that they are struggling more in the evolving role? Where are the CHROs starting to maybe not just struggle, like really struggle? Like where are they just hitting a wall and saying? Without looking at the report, let's say velocity, speed.

[00:05:00] Yeah, I mean, if you just wanna look at the data, but the top five challenges that came out, and I'll be honest, they were all within two percentage points of each other. That's what I was mentioning to this kind of everything.

[00:05:09] It's really interesting because as I was kind of hearing Laura say sort of her shift in her role is so much of this is so fascinating because it's not sort of what was historically HR's task. So the number one one was changes in compliance and regulatory laws.

[00:05:23] That's really more of like the legal side, but it's made its way in HR, right? Lack of reduced or less budget in general, CFO side, right? So this is kind of this partnering with every side of the business. Hiring swings and fluctuation.

[00:05:36] I mean, you know my day job as kind of the resident non-economist at Isims, right? That is wild. We know that. I mean, you can't keep up. It's just, it's whiplash at the moment. I love that title. The resident non-economist.

[00:05:49] Yeah, well we also call me like chief data nerd because I say like, I'm not an economist. I don't always care what the economy is doing. I care about helping folks like Laura figure out what are people doing? And can their talent acquisition teams find people?

[00:06:02] And that's way less interesting in my opinion than looking at a quit rate of non-farm payrolls in the United States. But I'll get off my soapbox there. And the other two that I think are, where the came out for the top five were integrating AI.

[00:06:16] I mean, if anyone's been to any conference or listened to any podcast in the last two years, they are not just living under a rock, right? I don't think when Laura signed up for this job, she was like, I'm gonna be thinking about

[00:06:26] how artificial intelligence is really key to my team's tasks. That's this quickly, right? And then the last one was lack of qualified talent. We do talk a lot right now about how the numbers are coming back when you think of things like applicants for opening returning,

[00:06:42] but sometimes we're at a point that it's not always quantity we need. I mean, there was a point where we really needed quantity a couple years ago, but that quality of finding the right candidate feels like we're hearing a lot of people say

[00:06:53] it's harder now than it has been historically. It's interesting. You know, one of the things that was pretty surprising coming out of all of that too. So based on what Rhea just said and where we spend so much of our time is in the recruiting space, right?

[00:07:07] If you go back a couple of years ago, you would have ventured to guests to say, okay, that is the number one priority of CHROs. They are so worried about people leaving that all they're worried about is the TA function and it's turning on. The report actually shows

[00:07:21] that more than half of our CHROs are spending more time in talent acquisition today and talking about talent acquisition strategy than they were two years ago. What part of the strategy are they looking at? So this is where it gets interesting.

[00:07:38] I think this is where, to Rhea's point, they're having a hard time finding qualified talent, right? They're having, in most cases, their budgets are being pinched, right? So they have less recruiters to go through the talent that's coming in the door, right?

[00:07:53] There's a whole new element around shaping the workforce for the future and AI, and attrition rates are lower. And so they've got to think more strategically about the talent that they have in C. How are we growing and developing them? Where does internal mobility come into play?

[00:08:08] And so it's not just about, we've got Rex, we've got a Phil. It's, we've actually got to get super strategic about the talent that we have than the talent that we need. So as a part of the survey, did you do any demographic data?

[00:08:25] As far as the respondents are? Yeah. We did not ask questions on that, no. I was just wondering if we could slice it by male, female or generationally or any of that type stuff. Okay, so the number one thing, compliance,

[00:08:41] that was the number of the buys by the numbers. It was compliance, keeping up with the, oh, I'd assume some of this has to do with pay equity and the state laws and things like that, right? Correct. So how do CHRs keep up with that?

[00:08:58] Did they give you any insight in that or Laura, can you speak to, like how do you keep up with legislative moves? So much. I mean, this is where again, Rea mentioned, it used to sit squarely with the general council. Now it's about general council

[00:09:13] and I have amazing teams of people that we are working with that are scouting things that are happening around privacy, employment law, other really critical laws changing landscape. This is just constant. And so one is just strong partnership with general council and their teams to monitor it

[00:09:34] and figure out how we're gonna get it. Two, some of it's still pretty, the stuff you would expect where monitoring legal updates, where seeking external guidance, we're joining webinars, we're reading everything we can. Like some of that doesn't go away, but how we think about implementing it

[00:09:50] has certainly gotten more complex in today's environment, especially when you're so global and you have people working in all jurisdictions and how you need to unpack that every single day when you're looking at your workforce, it's just more complex. And so even if things aren't evolving as quickly,

[00:10:09] our workforce is and so where we're operating, how we're operating, that's just a constant consideration in every single thing we're doing. And I think this is where it's really fascinating because a lot of these things, you know, you wanna think salary transparency, right?

[00:10:21] There's the law and what you have to do. Then there's also what's the right thing to do. I think that's where the CHRO is really critical in partnering with just, not just general counsel saying, this is absolutely what the letter of the law has

[00:10:35] when we should do this and nothing more. Then there's also the candidate experience side and this is the other side of our research comes in to see like we're seeing for example, right now speaking to your question on demographic, when you look at job seekers, for example,

[00:10:47] if you're trying to hire candidates with 10 years or less experience, that's a group that is opting out if you're not posting the salary, regardless of the state that that role is posted in. So there's really this kind of need

[00:11:00] for a strong partnership between what you have to do but then sometimes it's important to go beyond for your candidates, for your recruiters also, right? You don't want them having to phone screen 100 people who the salary expectation is completely off and really find a hitting that sweet spot

[00:11:15] and it is ever changing both the laws but also the candidate expectations because I think that's where that human side is really critical. The law may say one thing and yes, of course, by all means talk to your legal team

[00:11:30] of what is the right thing that you need to do but there's also the side of, you know the people and what do the people want as well not just for compliance purposes? Laura this might be more of a question for you

[00:11:42] or were you able to pull this out of the survey and get a feel for this? How much of a CHRO's role has changed so that we've talked about this William in previous conversations where how much of the role, maybe not change but how much of the role

[00:11:59] is to represent the company and Rhea this is what you were talking about versus you're an advocate for the people of the company. There's that weird line that's kind of there and you're always teetering back and forth

[00:12:13] or how did, was there any insight in the report there one? And if not, what are your thoughts there? No, I don't know necessarily that there was anything in the report that would point to where folks are spending their time but I will tell you

[00:12:28] that what we heard in terms of top priorities in the next 12 months places where CHRO's are going to invest their time are things like looking at their tech stack. Things like evaluating AI, things around improving learning and development for their teams back to what we were talking about

[00:12:48] a little while ago on internal mobility. Workforce planning, looking at DE&I. So when I hear these things and then I think about how this shows up in my role this is, I almost gone are the days of HR policy

[00:13:05] and that's what we're here to do from a company standpoint and the data shouts out loud and clear as well because research is showing what we're seeing when I think about my day to day is that if you don't have sort of the infrastructure

[00:13:20] to foster culture and engagement to drive people from a career growth and development standpoint, you don't get performance. You don't get people who are going to be thinking about the company's best interest. It's just a completely different way of coming at it

[00:13:37] which is a much more bottoms up than a tops down approach. And I think that we see that just in terms of how this strategy and priorities have evolved over these past couple of years and that's what we're also seeing in terms of

[00:13:50] where CHROs are spending their time. But I think that comes hand in hand with the fact that we've seen a real pivot from talent acquisition being fill the bucket and really more partnering in keep people in the bucket. I mean, one of the interesting stats

[00:14:07] that came out of our survey is that folks are looking to stay longer in their roles now than they were even just a couple of years ago. Just feels like every time we talked two years ago it was great resignation, great resignation, great resignation, there are no candidates.

[00:14:21] And now it's like, okay, we've got our people. How do we one, hold on to them, two develop them and three help them see a future in our business. And finally it seems like we have alignment between employees and companies.

[00:14:36] And I do think that's where you see the role of HR or TA even change from just implement the company policy to where the eyes and ears of this whole staff if retaining is a priority, then I think that voice is really elevated in the conversation.

[00:14:53] Should have asked you this at the very beginning but we'll do it now. When you got the data back, were you shocked by anything? And the opposite is also true. Was there something that you just basically, yeah we kind of thought that was the case.

[00:15:09] So both of you, when you first just initially looked at the draft of data and the draft of the results, Reya anything shocking here? I wouldn't say necessarily shocking other than the fact that I've gotten on the soapbox I think with you on this podcast before

[00:15:27] so I'll step off it quite quickly but there is just this external narrative around talent acquisition right now that it seems like everybody has an opinion on talent acquisition and depending where you get your news and I don't mean by which channel you watch on TV.

[00:15:42] I mean people like what your LinkedIn following looks like people kind of have this sense of, I love these blanket statements. Nobody is hiring right now. Or then you have the opposite you have companies nobody wants to work. Like these just high level, right? Everybody is doing layoffs.

[00:15:58] And then you do go look at the actual economic data as dry as it is. And it's like, no actually resignation rates are back down to where they were pre COVID. Rift rates are really not that elevated. Are there some very high sort of publicity situations happening?

[00:16:15] But even some of those you'll hear of companies right? They laid off 5,000 people and you go and they've got 7,000 jobs open on their career site. And they have 400,000 employees. So it's small. LinkedIn is especially wrong with cause they'll do Google lays off 900 engineers. It's like, okay, no context.

[00:16:40] It's like, okay, they have 1.8 million employees. They laid off 900 people. That's not even relevant but yet that's news. So I mean, I can't what you're saying. It depends on it. I think what was interesting when we looked at the report is there were pieces that were validated, right?

[00:16:56] So this, again, if you, I don't know who y'all follow but if you follow who I follow on LinkedIn nobody's allowed to work remotely anymore. Every company is forcing people back to work, right? I mean, we're laughing but that's really what this is. No one can find jobs.

[00:17:12] That's the other thing. I've been unemployed for no recruiter answers and email or response to an application. That's what you see. So I think when we get the data back there are interesting things. I'll give you just throw another strategy. I love numbers, right?

[00:17:25] 56% of respondents said their company's hiring the same number or more remote workers this year. That is not the vibe. That felt right to me but I'm laughing because it's like, not if you read. Not if you read just if you're feed. Yeah, that's right.

[00:17:40] So that's why we like that. I mean, I said we're real like data nerds over here but that's why we love the data because it takes that feeling of nobody's doing this or nobody's doing that and really gives a number to it to say, yeah.

[00:17:53] Internal mobility is key. CHROs aren't trying to let go of their whole company. That is not what they're getting together and discussing. I think you bring up a good point. I think it's important maybe we discuss it here. People have a perception that companies

[00:18:08] are laying people off to save money and yes, that happens. Focus changes in a company but that doesn't mean like you said companies are not hiring, they're changing direction. They're doing different things and you just made a comment that CHROs are not looking to get rid of their,

[00:18:28] no but there is a business that they're also running and that's that line Lara that I'm kind of like it's a tough line. You have to make really hard calls in a room where no one else is just a few people

[00:18:40] that affect five, six, 700, 1,000 people at one time but you're also going to hire another 1,000 or 1,500 or 2,000 people to accomplish the next step in the company. You don't make that call. The company may not be around next year. I think people have a hard time understanding that.

[00:19:00] Yeah, it's very hard to rationalize Ryan your spot on though and I think that's where that is the nature of the business in terms of in operating and saying this is where we're investing, this is where we're not investing and here's why

[00:19:14] and we were talking about communication a little bit before we all got on that's part of why it's so critical to bring your employees along for some of that change. But what we're also hearing from CHROs and we're hearing it from employees as well

[00:19:29] is that this is why workforce planning comes to the forefront in so many ways for priority for CHRO or AI and understanding its impact to our workforce for learning and development initiatives because there is an opportunity if organizations are thinking strategically about those investments

[00:19:48] and where they no longer need to invest it's how do we also get ahead of that from a skill set standpoint? How do we think about the availability of our internal talent to deploy against those future opportunities that may not even exist today in our organization?

[00:20:04] What skills do we need to start to hone and grow internally to be able to meet some of that demand? You're not gonna be able to do it one for one but in large organizations you are able to do that at scale

[00:20:16] and the investment there is worth it because these are people who are ramped in your organization, they usually there's faster performance out of the gate, shorter onboarding time and it'll help you fill needs elsewhere as well. Yeah. Ray, next stat that you have that shocks us?

[00:20:37] Shocks, I don't know if it's shocking. You don't have a lot of one. You know what? I don't have one. I don't think it was shocking. None of again, to Ray's point, some of it's validating, right? But just going back to the whole sort of narrative

[00:20:51] that's out there and we've seen this also in some of the reports we do where we study graduates of graduating classes and all of Gen Z comes out a lot. Ray mentioned the remote work but we also heard 60% of job seekers

[00:21:05] that are 21 to 24 actually saw a return to office mandate as positively impacting their engagement and their opportunity at work. And there's a narrative that's out there in the market today that's Gen Z doesn't wanna go to the office, our new entrance, they wanna be remote.

[00:21:22] The data is actually showing the opposite. They do because that's A, they've been through COVID, they didn't get to go to prom, they didn't go to graduation, they didn't do all those things but also if we remember back to young in our careers, early in our careers,

[00:21:37] that was our social network. Right, exactly. You know you worked, you went out to a bar, you went to a ball game, you went out and did all that stuff. That's where you met people. And so it is a positive thing. I think it's how you learn.

[00:21:51] I think a lot of, I joke that I think spent my first two years in my career learning through osmosis because I would just listen to people. Maybe that was me being a bad cubicle mate. But we would just, I remember saying to my boss

[00:22:02] like if there's ever a meeting, bring me along. It's not done much in the Zoom world without being incredibly intentional. Right. And that's how the younger generations learning. It's not, you know, my boss didn't take me in a room when we did a two hour training.

[00:22:15] It was come along and watch me do it 10 times and eventually you'll find yourself speaking the language. Right? And I think that's another piece that's really fascinating. And I love to add to Laura's stat. The really interesting one is folks over 55,

[00:22:28] you would think they're kind of the old school folks that wanna be back in a normal environment. They were the least seeing us positive going back with only 11% of folks that were getting positive. They're good. They're trained. They've got their life.

[00:22:44] Still hold it on to the fact that we might not be able to, that we might be able to retire at 65. They're holding on to that thought. No such thing. No, no such thing. The thing is they've been through it,

[00:22:55] but also look at all the other things that they have. They have kids, possibly grandkids, depending on, so they've got activities, they've got hobbies. They see the office as an impediment to living their life. Let me throw this out there. It curious to get everyone's take here,

[00:23:13] which is tied to the report obviously, but so you said 21 to 25? Once to be in the, they're okay. They're positive for them to come back into the office. Their parents are our age or slightly older. I have been, it has been drilled into my head

[00:23:34] as a kid growing up, go to work, stay there, be loyal, do this, that's changing, fully understand that. But I'm not sure it's changing really for this generation. In their minds, they want something. They're voicing something different, but they're still in my opinion,

[00:23:53] they're still afraid to take the leap and say, no, I'm free. I don't need internet. I don't need this. I'm gonna go be living the woods somewhere in a tiny home, right? There's some that do that, but I think the generation following will be very different.

[00:24:09] This one now, the 2018, 19, 20 year olds, 25, I don't think they're ready to make the leap. They talk a good game, but once they get there, their parents are still in their mind and I think they need that structure still before they move on. That's just my opinion.

[00:24:28] Well, it's what they knew growing up, if you think about it, right? What you knew. It's the benefits maybe of our generation having take your kid to work day, right? I used to go and I'd sit in my dad's office and I'd use his computer

[00:24:39] and that's what going to work was like. And we really, I laughed because I was working, I was with a customer recently and they asked any advice on getting Gen Z to be a little bit better at video interviews.

[00:24:52] And I said, you gotta give them a little bit of credit cause the folks giving them advice never did this. If you think about it- They are doing it, we're not. Right, I've never got a job through a video interview.

[00:25:05] I took a sick day from work and put on my blazer and walked into the Isom's office the last time I got a job. And so any advice on how to do a video interview, I don't really have it. And they were asking things like,

[00:25:18] what isn't as inappropriate as a background? Or what do you have to wear a suit? And I'm like, I don't know. And I'm sure if I asked my parents, they really wouldn't be helpful in that conversation. And so I think there is a couple facets to this

[00:25:31] I think also worth calling out which is I think every generation had people that didn't follow the normal path. I think you have to remember social media has made people more willing to be out there and open and sharing that they're not doing

[00:25:45] sort of what everybody else did before them. And so I think, again, going back sort of a lot of narrative has shifted and I don't know if it's the trend or if it's that voice of someone doing a non-traditional path is elevated now.

[00:25:59] You see them as I'll be honest, I'm not gonna date myself. I'm not on TikTok, but you see them on Instagram reels or any of that, right? Saying, I don't work nine to five anymore. I've done this. There's always been people that didn't work nine to five

[00:26:12] but their voice is out there for everybody to hear now. Right, it's more transparent. And I will add one more because I gotta add a good stat. I find this one interesting. Right now, would you believe me if I told you

[00:26:23] that more than two thirds of job applicants are under the age of 35 right now? And so there really is critical to think about especially from, I like to say, right? Attract Gen Z, retain millennials. There's a lot of those things to your point though the old taboos, right?

[00:26:41] You can't leave a job less than a year. Gen Z doesn't believe that anymore, right? They get to a job and they were sold something and that's not how it is. They will leave. That's a millennial trait. That's what our parents want us.

[00:26:53] Yeah, I don't, you know, I agree obviously but I don't, I think some of that's bled into other generations as well. So I'm squarely Gen X, right? So like if I got into a gig and it just wasn't working out, I wouldn't stick it out.

[00:27:12] Like I would have years ago, years ago, bad bosses, terrible environment, how to just stuck it out. Now I wouldn't stick it out. So I mean some of that is bled so they've changed the game in that sense of,

[00:27:28] yeah, I don't care about what the rules were before but I don't think it's just them. I think what they've done is now changed the game for all of us. They've given us permission, it's okay to do that.

[00:27:40] You get into a gig, you don't like the gig, deuces. It's hard to, it's really important to remember though that with every year there are no longer this small sort of sliver of our youngest generation of the folks one year out of school, right?

[00:27:54] Gen Z might be five or six years out of school. They're getting into management positions at this point, right? It's no longer, I remember when I started my career and it was like, oh you millennials, you know. And now we're the- You're an elder millennial.

[00:28:09] I'm a very action millennial technically. That's a fun fact, it's a real thing. Geriatric millennial. Geriatric, yeah. That's what they call us, yep. Well, did they give you a wheelchair with that term? I guess so. But it is interesting that this group,

[00:28:28] this is why I like to call out that stat, right? When we talk with customers, when we talk about talent acquisition, we say, you know, attracting Gen Z, they're like, wait, you don't really hire Gen Z. And that's why I love that stat, right?

[00:28:38] Two thirds of your applicants are Gen Z right now, so maybe think about it. You might not hire them, but they're not choosing you. Do you think that it helps or would help that if Gen Z was on the hiring side of that?

[00:28:51] So think of it like this, if Gen Z were the recruiters hiring Gen Z, would that impact them? I think they already are. Okay, yep. Yeah. Okay. The recruiters I talk to are not Gen Z. All the recruiters I talk to,

[00:29:06] but again, a lot of them are global heads of TA, or you're heads of TA, so of course they're not Gen Z. But the frontline recruiters, okay, that tracks. The folks doing your daily phone screens. Right. I mean, Laura can speak to our team as well. Yeah, yeah.

[00:29:21] And I mean, what we're also seeing though, right, and this is why there's so much emphasis being placed on making sure that you're providing authentic experiences from a recruitment standpoint, right? That the experience is high quality, but that you're also being realistic about who you are

[00:29:36] as an organization for this exact reason. Because we are finding that if somebody comes in and you said you were something that you're not, they're way less willing to stay. But if they find a strong alignment, we're actually seeing on the flip side that they wanna stay.

[00:29:57] Our stats are showing that people wanna come in and find a place where they can find a long-term career and stay in a, I think it was like a third of our respondents said that they would only consider a job at the company that they're currently at.

[00:30:11] And that's a pretty significant number. And so it's about being really thoughtful about cultivating an experience that's gonna put realistic expectations out there for people so that they can say, yeah, this is the place I wanna be. And not be stressed.

[00:30:25] But Lord, just more pressure on internal mobility and us being able to offer up those gigs internally and we've historically, not I since, we've historically been horrible at internal mobility, right? That's just not been, cause you get a new situation from a recruiter perspective.

[00:30:44] It's like I placed that person. Now you're gonna take that person and put them somewhere else. Now I gotta replace that person again. So you got that. You've also managers that would like to keep their talent as opposed to letting their talent go into other things.

[00:30:57] So you've got all kinds of barriers, natural barriers that are around forever, but it does kind of highlight, probably put a little spotlight on, you better be damn good at internal mobility or get good at it fast. That's right. Yeah, that's right. And the, and you know,

[00:31:13] internal mobility, William to your point, there's this element of like, okay, we're gonna fill jobs with internal people. And there's a whole process that goes around that, but the reality is and why it's so hard is that it's really culture change

[00:31:27] and change management in terms of the thinking about your internal talent. And that's way harder than, you know, putting a policy out there and putting a process in place, right? 100% Was there anything in the report that, and I know you said there was no shock value here, right?

[00:31:44] There wasn't anything that was completely shocking, but anything that you were hoping to see, maybe personally, as you put it out, you're like, okay, I really hope to see this. And then you were kind of like, oh, that sucks. We didn't get that.

[00:32:04] I think not necessarily, well, some of this report, one thing I would say that we were hoping to see which we did see is internal applicants coming back because that's something last year that was kind of our shock factor, real disappointment was that the trends

[00:32:17] were just showing that folks would just leave your business before they'd apply inside. There wasn't sort of this faith, I used to say maybe they know how the sausage is made, but it was a concerning stat. So I would say a little breath of fresh air,

[00:32:28] okay, we got this, is that the internal applicants are coming back and that aligned really nicely with CHRO saying that internal mobility was so important. Do you think that's because the job market now is very slim, unemployment is very low,

[00:32:45] so they're like, yep, I have a better shot of getting a job internally or have companies really at the CHRO, have they really started to look at internal mobility and do it right? I mean, the job market really hasn't changed much in the last three years, right?

[00:33:00] If you look at unemployment, it's like, woo, we went from three eight to three nine and back down to three eight. That's really what we're seeing. And there have been really big surprises with companies adding positions, but the surprise has really mostly been that economists missed it,

[00:33:16] not that the number is actually so wildly high. I will say one piece that on my side we're looking at is just that we're not seeing recruiter hiring ramp up again. If companies really are thinking about candidate experience, both internal and external candidate experience,

[00:33:33] they're thinking about growing the business and hoping to see an economic turnaround that leads to business growth, they're not doing kind of the pre-steps we would wanna see, which if you think about it, right? It's unfortunate, but who tend to be the first to go

[00:33:47] when a company is reducing in size? Recruiters, right? So you'd hope to start to see that recruiter hiring coming back. And I actually talked about it at our user conference last year, there was a huge decrease in recruiter hiring

[00:33:59] and it was down again from even that number last year. So I think that was a little piece of it that is sort of how do these pieces add up? We have less money to spend, we have less people, we have more applicants

[00:34:11] and we know that candidate experience is critical right now and we don't wanna lose the people that we have, but they don't, CSROS don't really have sort of a lever to pull or something to give to take right now.

[00:34:23] It's just more and more of trying to do more with less. And that's why AI falls to the top and workforce planning and why they're spending more than half of their time looking at talent acquisition as the top priority. I have to say, from my standpoint,

[00:34:38] I was hoping that my peers would give me a little bit more clarity on the things that they're spending their time on, but the reality is that everyone is just across all of the things. They're all important priorities and it's about getting really, really deliberate

[00:34:54] about where you're spending your time. And that's again, why automation and the opportunity to look at tech stack, that's what they're looking at right now for any little piece that they can find a lever to give their team some capacity.

[00:35:07] Rayo, one of the things to think about though, historically, when there's a recovery staffing season first. So they go ahead and hire. Well you remember three years ago, right? What was the headline? What's the hardest job to recruit for? Right. Recruiters, right?

[00:35:22] So we kind of do this to ourselves. We do, but no, it's self-inflicted. This is the time, and we've talked about this before, this is the time when recruiters could be redoing process and redoing technology and making things better if they were on staff.

[00:35:39] But because we cut staff, they can only deal with the load that they're dealing with. So there's not innovation that's typically, there's not a lot of innovation that's happening in the automation, augmentation, all that type of stuff. Can't do it while they're carrying 40 rex.

[00:35:55] Like it's barely enough just to carry the 40 rex. So that tracks for me. Yeah, is that it? Go ahead, Ryan. Oh, go ahead. I think that's where it's really critical to get the rest of the business to see HR and town acquisition as an investment,

[00:36:11] not a cost center. And I think one of the stats that came out, not of the CHR report, but of another report that we did early in the year was that 56% of your candidates say that having a poor experience interviewing or even just applying at your business

[00:36:24] makes them less likely to wanna be a consumer of your organization. So if you can't get your CHRO to care about adding heads necessarily to hire or grow the headcount in your business, getting them to understand, are you willing to take half of this?

[00:36:38] We have a huge increase in applicants right now. We know that the state is showing us that. And half of those applicants, if they have a poor experience, may not spend their money with you as a business. And I think that's really critical

[00:36:50] and the HR leaders that are doing it very well are making that point that even if we're not hiring, we've got more applicants not getting the job. We really need to show them that experience, that we care, here's our culture, let's keep you engaged

[00:37:05] because we can't lose them as customers. So Laura, tear this apart. Hello, starting with that statement. Just please eviscerate everything I'm about to say. So HR is the 100 year old house. That shit's just been added to over the years. Here's your payroll and then you got compliance.

[00:37:25] Now you have performance. You've got rewards and recognition. You've got all these things that have accumulated. And if you look company to company, they're different. The way that they're shaped inside of an organization is different. I think HR has done a poor, I'll just say,

[00:37:42] CHROs have done a poor job of communicating to their brethren as to what they actually do. What they're responsible for. Like in sales, the CHRO versus a CRO. We could all agree really quickly on what a CRO does and what they're responsible for, right?

[00:38:02] But if we were to ask 100 CHROs or down, let's go ask 100 CMOs. What are your peers in HR? What do they do? What do they see? POs or CHROs, what do they do? We get at least 400 different responses based on what their experience has been with HR.

[00:38:24] It could be comp, it could be legal or compliance. It could be anything. Because the tapestry of HR is so complex that I think it's easier for them to just go, yeah, I don't, it happens over there. I'm not really quite sure why it happens

[00:38:42] or where it happens, but it happens over there. So communicating to peers, I don't know if we get to this in the report or if we should. But it's like, how do we change that narrative using Rayo's word? How do we change the narrative inside of an organization

[00:38:59] for the rest of the peer group to understand what the hell do we do? Right. Well, you know, so there's so much in there, William, that I can pull apart and then put back together. But I'll say, you know, the reason why we did this report, right?

[00:39:15] The driver is because we do have this acute awareness that the function, the way that the function needs to operate, the way that things get done across a business has evolved so quickly that even if the CHRO hasn't yet articulated to their peers, their organization

[00:39:34] that times have changed, it's happening. And we see that just in terms of our own customers and how decisions get made for them and who needs to come to the table, right? Investing in technology is not a CHRO conversation. That's a CHRO plus the CFO plus the CIO.

[00:39:50] Everybody's gotta be involved. And speaking from experience, the only way you're gonna get that investment is by painting the picture from a strategic standpoint. So to my CHRO and Chief People Officer friends and peers, this report is here to enable that

[00:40:05] for it to start that fact pattern of, hey, guess what? This is actually where other companies are spending their time. Hey, this is where the strategic priorities are and helping provide that frame for themselves and for their peers to say,

[00:40:21] now let's talk about how our strategy, our investment, our priorities fit into what we're hearing the market is demanding. You know, from HR. If I understand what you're saying, they should take this report and send it to the rest of the C-suite and the board. Absolutely.

[00:40:36] That's really, and there's a fascinating quote in our report from Josh Burson and he also talks about how it can be used and the different use cases of it. And I think it is really important that is a critical call out that we call this the CHRO report.

[00:40:52] And yes, it is very helpful information for CHROs, but it is an incredible resource to help a CIO, a CEO understand what's in the mind of CHRO. And then on the other side, I would also pass it along to your frontline recruiters, your heads of talent acquisition

[00:41:09] because if they understand what Laura's thinking, they can better support her and really kind of bring the knowledge sort of top to bottom in the organization. Because like I said, there's a lot keeping them up at night. Yeah, so final question on my side.

[00:41:25] When, so the role has been evolving, right? It's evolved like from yesterday, we get that. But when does the CHRO, which I know a lot, a lot of organizations, more complex organizations already are there. But when does the CHRO really become part of

[00:41:46] the business discussion of an organization? If they're not already, when does their role, what do they need to do in their role to become part of that conversation? If they're not already, this is the seat of the table, shit that's been around for 30 years.

[00:42:01] If they're not already a part of that, that's on them. I'm gonna take a really hard stance on this. Like, fuck it, here's real simple. If you don't feel like you have a seat at the table, it's on you. It's on you. It's on you. Period.

[00:42:16] Get a new job, go somewhere else. I don't know, bad groceries, whatever. But if that's, if you don't feel like you have a seat at the table, that's a you thing. I'll tell me how wrong it is. I'll say this, the business demands it.

[00:42:30] Like, it can't, you can't, if they're, the way the business operates today demands a CHRO operating at that level. It's here, it's here, Ryan. The talent has to be the center of all strategy. Cause you got the greatest products in the world,

[00:42:47] but if you don't have the talent at the center of your strategy, you're sick. So that's Skype. That was my CEO calling. Oh nice. Oh, that's Skype. Table. I think it's Teams. I think they use Teams, so the team is called. It's Team.

[00:43:04] Tell them you're like, hey dude, I'm standing here talking about it. How the fuck is this? I'm running stuff. Priorities, priorities. More is clearly needed and critical to running our business. Exactly. I will add though to your question, I think that is a valid question

[00:43:19] that we can unpack for another hour long podcast if we want to discuss heads of TA. But I think from a CHRO perspective, if they are not, not just a seat at the table, if they are not one of the closest seats at the table. It's their table.

[00:43:36] That is their job. It's, yeah. I've said this actually to Sirm before where I'm like, yeah, the seat at the table, we're way past that. It's your table. They're sitting at your table. Damn right. I got that applause too. There's a little playing to the audience,

[00:43:55] but y'all, thank you, hey, thank you for doing this research because it's just great research. It's great to hear. It's also great for other people, both in the organization range of to your point for alignment but also for other people to maybe,

[00:44:10] maybe we can demystify a little bit of what happens in HR and the priorities of HR today. So great job. This is something you're gonna do quarterly or annually? What's the bit? Well, to be honest, so we do several large reports like this every year on different topics.

[00:44:26] This is the first time we've done it on a CHRO report. We actually just presented this internally. We do an internal briefing for the company before the research goes live and we got that exact question. And I said, if people like it, we'll do it again.

[00:44:38] And that's really what we've done with our research is we take on topics and there's certain topics that end up that every year people come back and wanna know more about. And so we always appreciate the feedback just by downloading the report

[00:44:50] that tells us that it's being used, it's being helpful for our customers and for the industry as a whole. So I can't promise, but I have a feeling about this one. It's pretty useful information. Drops mic, walks off stage. Thank you all both so much.

[00:45:06] Lauren, you gotta go return a phone call. I do. I'm sorry.