Compensation isn't a math problem. It's a truth-telling problem.

[00:00:06] Welcome to Talentless. For those of you that are just joining on your first episode, because we have an awesome guest, I'm so glad you're here. If you are a true fan or listen all the time, I don't know what you're doing with your life, but I'm excited that you're here as well.

[00:00:24] Today we're joined by David Turetsky, and this conversation for me is so essential for recruiters as we talk about moving from disorder takers to actually doing business partner stuff. If we don't understand comp, which I'm going to be honest, I'm still learning. If we don't understand comp, what are we doing? What are we doing really?

[00:00:46] David has been doing this for 35 years. He worked at Workspace ADP. Now he runs HR Data Labs, hosts the HR Data Labs podcast, and consults with companies with his team on the comp problems they don't want to admit they have. Launched the HR channel. He also has HR Data Labs Media and HR Data Labs Tech, which has apps like Workitecture. It helps with salary structure, job descriptions, career architecture, and consultant clock.

[00:01:15] If you can't guess what that thing does from its name, you probably shouldn't be listening to this show. David, welcome to Tavillus. We're so glad you're here. Thank you. I'm so happy to be here, Desiree and Ashley. I really appreciate it. I am a fan of the show and watched many episodes. Have you really? I have, yes. Oh my gosh. First of all, sorry. Ashley's so shocked when people watch us. I literally am. I really am, because I can't listen to me.

[00:01:43] And I don't know, because I actually like me, but listening to me, I'm like, God, make her stop. I think you are in that problem. But what's fascinating is when you listen in context of the conversations, it's really important to hear how the interactions happen. And I watch on the HR channel, on Roku and Fire TV. So I get to see you. I get to see you in your element talking to people, and you're getting the best out of them. Yeah. So I really do appreciate it.

[00:02:13] Aw. Thank you. We love that. Thank you so much. Oh. Yeah. Gang, gang, gang, gang. Okay. So I think we can do it the millennial way. Ashley, do you agree that we start from the basics? No, hold on. You can't do that. This one. I can't do that. This is what the kids do. I don't have children. They told me they do this, too. Like, it makes a little heart. Isn't that the most silliest thing you've ever seen? The tiny heart? Like, what is that? That's very silly. All right. Now, since no one can... Hey, they can't see us, because we're on Roku TV, honey. Yeah. So they're watching this.

[00:02:43] So only the special people watching get to see these... They can. On ladies, when we did this, the Apple used to, no matter what phone we were using, including Riverside, used to throw out parts. They didn't do that anymore. Yeah, I saw that. It used to do it all the time, and now to do the emoji thing, which I'm actually glad for. It's gone. I'm like emoji-ed over. I'm sorry. Like, you do this, and it would throw up... The rock on. We said firecracker or fireworks. Yeah. Oh. Not anymore.

[00:03:13] Not anymore. I think we need to start from the beginning, because I promise you 90% of our listeners are like comp. Like, I don't want any involvement. I don't know where to start. That's too late for that. Or finance. That's too late for it. You know? Recruiters are inextricably linked to the world of compensation, and we in the compensation

[00:03:38] world are inextricably linked to the decisions and the end results of who and how recruiters are bringing people in. And especially in the world of pay transparency, there's got to be a linkage there. And if there isn't, it's broken and needs to get fixed. So we're here to help you fix that. So when we talk about compensation benchmarking, what does that actually mean, David? It means that in the compensation world, where we are asked, the compensation group is asked

[00:04:05] to understand how does the world pay for the jobs that we have in our organization. And so we have to use techniques like using surveys and now using next generation tools like using pay transparency data that's been thrust into the market by great states that ask for it or that have regulations about it. And so there's a lot of information now. The problem with having a lot of information in this world of benchmarking is there's a lot of noise.

[00:04:33] And so compensation people have to be able to help their recruiting as well as all the other partners in the world of human resources and the business figure out what's noise and what's applicable and what's real data and real information and insight that people in the organization need to use to create the best approach to hiring and keeping the best people. So benchmarking is a way for us to sample the population of the people who are getting

[00:05:01] paid in this job or in these jobs and us being able to tell you with some confidence, this is how much is being paid for this type of skill in this market. Yeah. How many different analysis or data points do you think is appropriate to earn that type of benchmark? Because in my mind, I would be looking at like 50 different. Nope. Nope. Okay. Take it back. Yeah. I mean, if you read, I have a, on my, on my wall, I have a book called Statistics and

[00:05:31] Econometrics. And if you go back to your college days or wherever you learn this, it will tell you that the law of large numbers says that there's a certain point in time when the data doesn't matter anymore and you're, you're okay. I will tell you that's never true in the world of pay. Having a lot of data is always better than having very little data. Unfortunately, there are certain circumstances where having some data is better than nothing at all. And so compensation is an art form, Ashley.

[00:05:59] And we use the numbers and the statistics we get to make inferences like scientists do. We make inferences as to what is pay and how much do I need to pay? Then there's the reaction and the four letter word that everyone in the world of work wants when it comes to pay. And you know what that four letter word is? People don't care. They don't care what the survey says. They don't care what the market says. They always want more. And so they're always going to try and challenge you to say you're lying or you're, you're not looking at the right number.

[00:06:29] And now with the advent of all these different sources of data, whether it's employee, employee is putting their data into a certain system on the web that, you know, does crowdsourcing of data. If they're looking at postings on a website like Indeed or LinkedIn, wherever it is, they're always looking at the data source they're going to pull on. They're going to put in front of you and go, hey, this says I deserve more. And the answer is no, you don't. Yeah. And why? And that's the story we have to create.

[00:06:57] I just had this conversation about Glassdoor and LinkedIn Insights. Please stop sending me what you think you need from these crappy data aggregators that like don't mean anything in the world. Right. And they don't do it right. And I only know that from working with David, everybody. But I was actually that was about to be one of my questions. Go ahead. If that's can I? OK. Is because whenever I worked at a company years and years ago is whenever LinkedIn just started

[00:07:26] populating like an estimated salary average or range that you could have. Cannot tell you how many internal employees called HR to be like, what do you mean you're hiring someone at this rate? And it's like that is not ours. That is their thing that they put on there. We didn't even put that. So it caused so many internal equity issues without us even doing anything. LinkedIn took on all that and then didn't explain it to nobody. So there was that. But then it's also how do you now because you already have the pushback that you mentioned right now.

[00:07:55] Now, how do you manage it whenever they have what they would consider viable data on their end to counter that internal benchmark or that analysis? So what does that look like for you? How is that change kind of wiggled in here? Yeah. So it's education, right? People have access to ChatGPT. They have access to Google. They can use the Internet. And when I started in compensation, the Internet wasn't a thing. Actually, email was just starting to be a thing.

[00:08:22] But it was just scientists and educators who were using it. Yeah. Okay. 35 plus years ago. But using the web, now you can find all these things out and everybody has their own source, right? They can go to here and learn the other. Education is the key here. And so we advocate of pay transparency. Pay transparency is not the solution. But I'm going to blame pay transparency to say, if pay transparency is a thing, then

[00:08:48] we need to educate all of the people, all of your workers, all of your candidates, all of your leaders, all of your managers, all your supervisors. And what's the data that they're looking at versus what is the data that we use internally in HR, the recruiters, the comp people, the HR generalists, to be able to judge whether or not we have the right information and insight to understand how much pay should be. Now, Ashley, you are brilliant. Desiree's brilliant.

[00:09:17] You might go into the market and go, hey, I can get a job over there and get paid double. And when you bring it back to your boss, you might talk to each of you and go, hey, I can go over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. And one of them goes, hey, that's great. Go ahead. You're not going to try to keep me here? No, no, no. You said you're going to go over there and get double. Go ahead. Go get it. I can't pay you double. Here are those studies that I have. Here's what I can pay. And here's why we came up to you.

[00:09:45] We came up to you for your pay range and for where you sit in the pay range. Having a lot of information and insight at your fingertips gives you the ability to say, here's what I can do and here's what I can't do. Also, doing the performance valuation, not when we're talking performance, but when we're talking about the after part of performance valuation about where's your career? What's your career in terms of where should you be within this company?

[00:10:10] That's when you should start making those connections between your pay and your skills and how much you have to grow and where's your next job within the company and what does that mean for your pay at this point? Are you on track? Should we be paid more or whatever? Don't wait until someone says, I can go over there and get more. We're going to. And if they're a great employee and you can't afford to lose them, you won't do something drastic. But if you go, I can't pay you anymore. I don't have the money. What are you going to do?

[00:10:40] And so education is the answer. And education means having the script available for the managers, having the education on what are the tools that we have to judge whether or not you're paid effectively. Yeah. And we need to share that. We can't hold on to it like we used to and go, you may not know the answer. Well, and I actually I love the thought of the education piece just because there's a whole mystification in this. Right.

[00:11:10] There is a whole there is definitely a power card holder and someone who doesn't have any cards. And one, pay transparency kind of evens that out. But two, the education also allows them to arm themselves to kind of level that playing field. And to say, because if people are, there's so many companies who are not actually willing to pay what the work is worth. And even if you say the range is 90 to 100 and they're like, we can get homey for 75. I bet. Like, why? For what?

[00:11:38] Like, we already decided this is what the work is worth. Yeah. And so the inequitability versus equitability. And I say this a lot. But to me, as a recruiter, if you're like and in the whole surface of DEI, like you can get as diverse and as inclusive as you want. If baseline is an equitable pay for what the work is worth comparison to each worker, I don't want it. I don't care if it's inclusive if you're underpaying me. Like, I don't care how much you include me.

[00:12:06] Like, Amy, who you? Yeah, that's true. That could be included somewhere else. Yeah. Exactly. Well, Dezzy's heard me say this before, Ashley. I don't think I've talked to you about this, but there are no bargains. Bargains are bullshit. Pardon my French. I like the French. You cannot have bargains anymore. There used to be a way before 1964, before the Equal Pay Act. There were tons of bargains because we opened and discriminated against people.

[00:12:33] Someone told me there was this thing where we were paid 82 cents on the dollar or 86 cents on the dollar to men in the same position. I've heard it. I don't believe it, though. Because since 2026, an Equal Pay Act has been a thing for now, how many years? Since 1964? The Lily Ledbetter. That's 62 years. Well, Ledbetter is different, though. What Ledbetter enabled us to do is to say that the clock resets on statute of limitations

[00:12:59] based on the last payment, the last payment of base pay or the last time you were paid by a company. That could be your severance. It could be your base pay. Whatever it is. So statute of limitations, the run out becomes a joke at that point. It's wonderful because then a person can go way back in terms of how they can sue for underpayment. The problem is that still exists the difference between how men get paid and women get paid,

[00:13:27] how people of color get paid versus people who are Caucasian. There is a disgusting amount of discrimination that still happens based on sexual orientation. And so my—and I'm getting about a pal still here—but my advice to recruiters is— This episode of the Talentless Podcast is brought to you by Do Better Consulting. Hiring is broken. Job searches are broken.

[00:13:52] And honestly, most career advice out there is just recycled nonsense. Do Better Consulting exists for people who are done guessing. They work with mid-to-senior leaders, founders, and talent teens to get clear on their signal, how they show up in the market, how they hire, and how decisions actually get made. No fluff, no templates just to say you have them. Just strategy, structure, and honest feedback that actually works.

[00:14:21] If you're tired of spinning, it might be time to do better. Head to dobetterconsulting.net. Is to enjoy and wrap your arms around pay transparency in order to say they're all-in-all bargains. I have to open up now everything we do. And if you're in New Jersey or Maine where you not only have to tell base pay, but you also have to give benefits and other things as part of that, now you have to be open. Go to Colorado and you also have to tell them what your career path will be.

[00:14:49] So you can wrap your arms around the regulation and say, I can't get bargains anymore. I can't get them because the law requires me to be open and to be fair. It's not about DEI anymore. It's about being fair to every candidate. Where do you think it's failing right now to pay transparency? Because I have seen job posts in states and I'm like, $3 to $999,000 is not a real range.

[00:15:17] Like what are the laws are there, but are they really giving enough guideline about what you're supposed to do? Yes. Yes. In fact, that is actually in the legal range. They call it relevant range of pay. And so it's not even about publishing your pay, your pay range of the minimum midpoint maximum anymore. It's about targeting the, what was the pay range for that level of experience for that job as a new hire. Right.

[00:15:45] So if you're hiring someone who's got a lot of experience, well then your range of pay is going to be higher up in the range. If you're hiring someone who's low in the range, then you're going to choose the lower section of the range. And people might go to quartiles or whatever to be able to choose that. That's a pay strategy. Right. That's a pay philosophy. But the role that regulations are written right now, is that it's focused on making a relevant range of pay as an offer in the listing.

[00:16:12] So if you do see that range that you're talking about, that's an illegal range. And can you report it and there are consequences for that? Yeah, I see it all the time. I like that has to be relevant. Well, you better holler at them and say, since this is a relevant range. So the actual problem is that people don't, and when I say people, I'm talking not about recruiters. I'm saying HR leaders don't understand that part of the regulations. And they're like, well, we're posting a range, so it's okay.

[00:16:41] No, it isn't okay. And no, there's liability there. In fact, you're going to piss people off more and they're going to report it to the Department of State and then you're going to have a problem. Yeah, interesting. Interesting. I mean, I see them all the time and I stress out for the job seeker. Like, that seems so crazy to me. Like, why would you even do that from an employer brand perspective? But that's just, we could talk about that for hours. Because it's terrible internal equity. And if they put anything in there,

[00:17:09] they will lose their internal employees and they will make them upsetty spaghetti in theory. They don't really want to put a tie, like all these different reasons. They internally don't have their stuff together. And by the way, actually, that's what we heard from companies who were saying, Patriot transparency is going to be awful for us. And we have not seen that. We have not seen what happened. In fact, if you ask companies, they're kind of, they're exhaling now because it wasn't that terrible. I think so. And do you know something? I think that that's true too.

[00:17:39] I think that there might be a little bit of wiggle. There may have been some shakeout loss, but if those people are leaving over whatever, like they were already probably a little bit out anyway. But I do think there was a- It's a move for us to go wrong with banana peel to me. Yeah. So I actually do agree because I can't tell you how many companies I worked for that were just like, this is going to ruin us. We're going to be bankrupt. We're going to get like, and it's like, how inequitable are y'all? Like, I mean, one company I worked for

[00:18:08] really removed the E because they were like, we're not, we're not, and we're not going to claim it either. So they just would do, which that's what Sherm did too. So they failed it, but they were trying to act like that's us being true to ourselves. And it's like, cool. So we're self-identifying that we're never going to pay you equitably. Yeah. And by the way, I think that that's kind of the ostrich mentality of compensation fairness. I'm not going to use the equity word. It's not really even about equity. It's about fairness. And if I have two people

[00:18:36] who are exactly the same from a performance and experience perspective, it doesn't matter that their names, one's Ricardo and one's Barbara, it doesn't matter. You have to pay them fairly. And if you're not, what the hell are you doing? I mean, really? I mean, we're in 2026 here. How can you justify that? Well, he's been around. She took time for FMLA. So he's been around. What? Come on, man. That's bullsh. I mean, you know,

[00:19:05] no, no, no. And I can tell you. Yeah, I agree. And the conversations, whenever you have those conversations, because they happen more often than people would like to admit, the language that people use is so interesting because whenever it's for men, it's like, well, he's going to have potential. He's going to make these impacts. He's going to be able to do a lot of predictive analysis on this candidate. But then whenever it's her, it's like, well, she's only had and we're reviewing only the things she's ever done. We're never going to. All of a sudden, our predictor global, whatever is broken. Yeah.

[00:19:35] Well, she's brassy and she's got a big mouth or she's subparated. Right, exactly. It sounds like she's a great employee. What are you talking about? And I'm a podcaster. What? I mean, I got a big mouth. I'm a podcaster. No, you're wonderful. You have a great mouth. I had a CEO, a person and she coaches CEOs. Her name is Christy Brown. She's a CEO of Dr. Knows Best. And she talked about how she's still in 2026 is treated differently as a CEO because, you know,

[00:20:05] she has to push back on people. She's being, you know, she's being bossy. Yeah. Come on. So let's cut through that crap and let's call it what it is, right? You think of men differently than women, especially how they act. Women are under a microscope where men get a free pass. That's bulls crap, okay? And again, from your perspective and your audience's perspective, you know, I don't think you guys do this as much and this is in the recruiting world where what I'm saying is

[00:20:34] tell everybody what the pay range is for the job that they're going to do. Judge each person fairly based on the years of experience and what's in the job description, not what you think they're going to do. Right. Because that's bias then. Right. Yes. Take all that stuff out. Think about how the person will fit into your culture. Yeah. Okay, fine. But still pay them equally based on their on paper as well as their demonstrated competencies and give people a chance. Give them a chance.

[00:21:04] Could I ask you real quick? Because I actually, I think I kind of think of it in a different, and I don't know that this is right. So coach me on this, but I actually think of it in a different realm. I actually don't think the pay should be dependent on the person at all. I think the pay should be actually dependent on the role. And if the person with that experience wants to take on this work for that worth, then that's one thing. And then we're just trying to get whoever is the best qualified and also can be not just a fit, but a contributor to it.

[00:21:32] So I kind of do it a little bit weird unless, again, let's say we have someone and then we find someone awesome and it's like, okay, we could move them to senior. Then, okay, now we're going to base it off of their specific skill set. But if the role is I need a junior software engineer and the rain, and we've decided we're going to pay 95K, we can go to 110 maybe. I, this might sound cuckoo bananas. I'm all for the people. I say 110. That's what I'm going to tell every single one of these candidates. So this is what we're going to do.

[00:22:01] And then if you can't fit that, then we can't fit, then that's okay. But I do kind of do it as a, this is what the work is worth. This might be a fit for you. It might not. I'm not sure. Is that, what would you say about that? Is that kind of counterintuitive? Is it a little backwards or what are your thoughts? And you can totally tell me that. I'm happy to be. Yeah, well, no, you're actually right. I'm getting to learn. But it's a process issue, right? It's a process issue that you're deciding on and a philosophy issue as well. Typically what happens is compels say, here's the range of pay

[00:22:29] that we can use as an offer for a person who has this much experience, right? But what you're doing is you're paying for the role. But people will have gradations of experience where you might need to pay them a little bit more than what the role is asking for. And so there's got to be some discretion in there to be able to have some latitude in order, as you were talking about, to go from the 90 to 115 or the 110 or whatever. Yeah. I'll also tell you

[00:22:58] that your pay philosophy, and you should have one, your pay philosophy sets the foundation and sets the table for how we make that decision, which then impacts how the rest of everything was paid for that person throughout their entire lives in that position and in that company. Yeah. So when they start and then you're offering that first job, you're slotting them into how and what you do, what you do around pay. So that first decision is critical.

[00:23:28] So let me go back to what you said. You said, I want to pay a junior software engineer a certain amount of money and that's what we're always going to pay for that. Yes, that's perfectly legal to do that. It's perfectly relevant to do that. But if you get a junior software engineer who knows more about the business, are you going to value that job and that person more because they won't have to start at the beginning? They're starting where they are. And the answer is you probably will pay them a little bit more because of that valuable insight

[00:23:57] that they have that others don't. And so you'll give them a little more. But now you've still got this tier where this person's here and they're here. Now, do they stay lockstep or do those people catch up? Because then they equalize and learn and now they're all growing together. That's up to your pay philosophy. It's also up to the way in which your merit increases work or your criminal increases work or whatever. However, you do that equalization over time. Now, if you've got people

[00:24:27] who start at higher and they go like this because their performance is so much better, that's also okay. Again, that's part of your philosophy and how you do pay. Yeah, I was really interested to be part of a project working with David right now that we developed the comp philosophy. And it was interesting to see what they brought to the table as their comp philosophy which is like they pay like 75%. It was just really interesting to see how that worked through

[00:24:57] all of the other things that we're working on for them. And if you take that mindset, you take that philosophy and then run it through all the other things, you really get to a good place. You get to this place where merit increases make sense, how we're looking at the market makes sense, they want to be in the top percentile. That makes a difference as they go forward and that's what they've said and that makes a difference. Now, if you say to me like we just want

[00:25:26] to pay the least because we don't have a lot of money, that changes everything else you do in comp, right? And so it's been, it was a really interesting exercise for me to go through that with them because I can't tell you that most companies have a comp philosophy. I would love to know if I reached out to like five companies. Well, most have a comp philosophy but it's not stated, right? They do have one. Yes, yeah. You mentioned at the end of what you were saying which was they don't have one or they were saying that we pay

[00:25:56] at the 25th percentile if we can't afford it or what some companies do is they say we pay at the 50th percentile for base or even 25th percentile at base but we make that up in the boluses that we give and so our total cash compensation is at the median but they will also give benefits that are at a 75th percentile level so we're between the 50th and 75th percentile overall in total compensation because we are targeting this on benefits

[00:26:25] so going through all those steps that we just talked about Desiree when you're doing your offer you won't just say well I'm going to pay you the 25th percentile on base no you have to say I'm going to pay you a little bit lower on base because you're also going to need a bonus and they're going to be like yay, that's great when does that get me? well let's see the median of the market but our benefits package is so rich it takes you to 70% well I'm 19 and I just graduated from high school and I don't care about benefits you know

[00:26:55] does that apply to me? well we won't have a flexible the cafeteria we're used to we're used to give you what you didn't yeah we didn't you didn't you didn't you didn't remember those? remember those? yes but we don't do anymore and so therefore you're only going to get up to 50th percentile so the way that comp philosophy works in terms of the recruiting process is you have to have a good communication strategy to how do I sell this company to the people who are joining and it's true in terms of pay transparency

[00:27:25] as well how do I communicate this and avoid it's enticing and makes people understand why are you paying a little bit less in base well you're going to make it up for me in our incentives and by the way incentives could be quite rich yeah that was actually going to be one of my questions is like how does the EVP play into all of this like from y'all's perspective like how much weight because you're first of all it's going to depend on the candidate there are some people where insurance is the most important thing I've worked some places I worked at a startup where we hired you know a whole bunch of young people they don't understand

[00:27:55] equity they don't get equity they're like what is a stock what is an RSU and I remember telling our CEO if you're trying to use equity as a way to you know leverage a lower salary so that way they can have that which it was a strategy they were a startup out of the garage that's what it was I was like we have to almost give these kids a class on what this is how it works because to them it's just a word it's just a fit like that's just sound coming out of someone's mouth it has no value

[00:28:25] it's nothing until it's executed and so even that which I am someone who people could tell me you can have five billion equity RSUs and I'm like it's fairy dust until it's something and so so yeah how does that all plan into there for y'all well so everything we just went through actually is true about equity pay it is on paper wonderful it's great on paper but it's also valueless until something happens that something could be if it's a public company

[00:28:54] that something could be vesting because the moment vesting happens if it's a public company you can exercise and sell and get a lot of money potentially if the stock is appreciated if it's a restricted stock it actually has value the moment it's granted to you because you get dividends on it and so even if you know it's not granted and the price comes down a little bit it's still worth something because there's actual shares behind your restrictions when your restrictions lapse you can actually sell it as shares of common stock but with options

[00:29:23] there is literally zero value to the person getting an option on day one until not only invest but until the underlying share actually appreciates from the grant value and when it appreciates above the grant value and it keeps that throughout the entire life until it's been vested it's worthless if it doesn't stay up it's worthless what's all what's worse about this whole thing is if you're using it as a component pay in lieu of

[00:29:52] something else then that person really feels a loss a genuine loss in how they eat how they feed their family how they school their kids how they you know save up for their vacation how they take care of an elderly person and so I always look at equity as being a great long-term strategy for keeping people aligned with the goals of a company but yet don't consider it as a short-term part of pay it's a long-term that's right it's called the long-term incentive

[00:30:22] it's a long-term part of pay and it should come into your mind every time you're making a decision that has a long-lasting effect on the company if I take this if I take this decision now is it going to hurt the company three or five or ten years down the road no okay well I'll make the decision if it does maybe I'm a little bit second-guessing it maybe I'm thinking a little bit more closely about it so there's I mean we could spend an entire episode talking about the differences in equity I'm going to have to have you back on for the equity stuff

[00:30:52] because like I bet 99% of our audience still doesn't even understand what they're selling so well well I got a short story for you very quick story so I worked at Morgan Stanley for many years and as part of that I helped coach employees who were sometimes leaders managing directors and one of the things we had talked to them about was stock they traded stock for a living that's what they did but when we got employee stock options or if they got restricted shares they kind of

[00:31:21] lost sight of well wait a minute is this something I can give my kids can I gift it to my no it's an employee stock option it's not giftable yeah I can trade this one no no you cannot trade this and so even the most brilliant people in that world still needed coaching and assistance and training on what these things are and what are the restrictions on it I held a training from my recruiters because they truly had no idea they would say the words but they couldn't explain to me what an RSU was and so

[00:31:51] like I'm like guys you can't explain it to someone who doesn't understand it on the other end of the line like we're in trouble so we held a training a workshop and it was like you know it was an hour and a half and I don't I still think it like boggled people's minds a little bit but they were able to talk about it more intelligently when you're making an offer right that's what we do every day is we make offers and if we can't explain the offer to someone then we're lost already for me

[00:32:20] right that's where a script comes in yeah right that's right a script comes in where a quote on a slide that says here's how you explain what a restricted share is or what a restricted unit is versus an award yeah how is it treated differently and what does it mean from a tax perspective and when can you see the money and stuff like that it's gonna be an hour stuff you didn't know telling outside the box because well we'll save for the spoilers but yes sir you're spot on because that rolls into this so okay hold on I do have one last

[00:32:50] question if that's okay before we go to wherever you were headed next as sure okay hear me out hear me out this is a theory I have and I'm going to say this and you're probably going to be like oh my god girl don't ever say that again I feel that compensation is a mirage and the reason that I say that is because 2020 happened where we had candidates who were calling their shots on the market and all of a sudden all these companies who ain't had no money this whole time

[00:33:19] finding all these little pennies in the couch to pay all these people who needed the money that they were calling the shots on and it made me really start thinking how vulnerable is the compensation structure to where we could have a 2020 where you have recruiters making 240k recruiting for one year experience for one year and but it was it happened like it truly happened now don't get me wrong we saw all the shuffle the reconcilia everybody returned back to the office that was a strategy

[00:33:49] and all these other different things to resettle the ground because the ratio of CEO to recruiter was now completely different but it was more equitable towards the actual all of society to be quite frank like there is no CEO that I think is worth 5,000 of me sorry like I have yet to meet one that I was like wow you're 5,000 of me like no they fall ass backwards into the success but yeah but

[00:34:19] so like how much of this if like we really if like all recruiters in the world were like we deserve 250 and that like if we really hung in here together and we're like this is our benchmark forevermore could people really change the market like that because I think of engineers I think of all these other jobs that aren't teachers that aren't nurses that aren't people saving lives they're not doing you know these grandiose things they're just building a little wonky something but they say well if you want me to be your sales force engineer that's 400k honey and it's like how do we

[00:34:49] get there did they just call their shot and make it or like what is that for you because I've always I live there sometimes where I'm like we should fight the system yeah and it comes back to economics 101 which is supply and demand yeah yes a lot of times and we saw this happen during the there were pits and troughs where first of all we shut down on Monday and then the next day we had to figure out who was going to be in the boat with us yeah and so we used

[00:35:19] certain types of people who had certain skills in order to be able to figure out what the boat looked like and how many people are going to be in it with us during this time well who was the most important person there well it was the recruiter right you had to hire people it wouldn't be able to stay on the tides of what was going on during this period where we've never experienced this as a people before yeah that happens a lot it happened during y2k when we were looking for

[00:35:48] mainframe programmers back when way before you guys y2k millennial it's not before me it's before her cobalt yeah exactly exactly that code who is it is it indeed where they were looking for a zip creator where they were looking for a mainframe programmer and they let's cobalt so no one only the ogs know yeah exactly but that was a time when we were looking for people with a particular set of skills and because they didn't exist anymore people who had those

[00:36:18] skills were rising to the top and being able to be paid what they needed to be paid in order to get this imbalance because there was a ton of demand and not a lot of supply and if you looked at the curve you were like oh my god the price is going with 3 and they did but then they came back down once those things were taken care of the demand wasn't there anymore supply may have been there but the demand wasn't and that's the problem worth pay in legal economics is that it follows

[00:36:48] specifically the supply and demand curves now you were mentioning as well healthcare and nurses they are frontline workers during the pandemic paying for nurses went through the freaking roof and we're still circumstances where there's a lot of demand for especially emergency room nurses because a lot of them left the market what happens when you have a whole bunch of nurses leave the market the supply comes down what happens when the supply comes down the price goes up so that's still true Ashley

[00:37:17] and in the world of artificial intelligence people who do prompt engineering and other things well now they're going through the roof marketing people are going through the roof who know PEL or sorry SEO is going to kill me SEO right and the development of you know the things that Desiree does they'll pay a lot of money because there's a lack of them so hire Desiree Colby she's really working

[00:37:46] but what I'm saying is that if it's not for supply and demand then literally employers should just call the shots and go oh we're all will pay that but they can't and so there is some market strength that employees have to be able to acquire the right skills and I tell employees this a lot I coach a lot of people on this get the right skills so that you're so unique that you can demand more because if you don't know an employer and you say yeah I'm just another comp person they'll be like okay well

[00:38:16] we pay comp for people X well if I also know this this and this well okay we pay that why do you really have those supply and demand still rules the roost here and that's where if you were to ask me if something comes along and happens again like the pandemic we will get some of that power back or certain people will get that power back but not everybody are you wishing for a pandemic Ashley I mean no but I'm wishing for another I just mean

[00:38:46] no the hantavirus gave me enough PTSD I don't even know if y'all saw that like Ebola coming back y'all like chill like we definitely don't want that but what we do want is to be valued at half

[00:39:22] class and saying I support you last question what's a widely accepted comp best practice right now in the world in 20 26 that is total nonsense if you could force every chro cpo cfo to stop doing that one thing what would it be comp ratio yeah it's it's the

[00:39:52] you got to do round one no you don't the reason why we have a salary range is because people have to walk a pattern during

[00:40:22] the market penetration certainly does it tells you how far on the market are you for the job you're in that's much better but I hate comp ratio love it good to know this is the time that we talk about the psychological or cognitive side of what we've been talking about today and today it's been about comp so I'm going to turn it over to Ashley this one is an impromptu every week it's impromptu it's not always impromptu every

[00:40:52] once in a while I got a little plan this time had no plan but it's great because this is going to be organic and this is what it has to so you're going to have to sell the full employee value proposition you're going to be selling the insurance you're going

[00:41:22] to be selling the tuition reimbursement you're going to be selling the equity there is a reason that it is important for you to understand equity why because if the person is already taking a lower salary and comping for this with the equity or with these other things equity can this will be great because I can do X Y Z may not fully comprehend that even when those

[00:41:51] options are not actually bringing in value they can still cost you and so you as a recruiter really need to lean into the clarity and understanding of what it is that your company offers and whether that's like what David and Des said get a script write something that explains it to the candidates that explains it to your managers because what you don't want to do is sell something that actually is going to put the candidate in a worse situation financially and if they're already willing to cooperate and

[00:42:21] say you know what I'll take lower pay because of all these other things you better make sure what you're selling with those other things are you plug all the things that you're doing I don't have time you need to ask me back to plug all the things you can't remember HRDataLabs.com

[00:42:51] HRDataLabs.com HRDataLabs.com Yay! Boo! That's the guy with the weavy arms the HR channel which you can find this amazing podcast on it talentless podcast lives on the HR channel that TV and more things on HRDataLabs.com but we also have the HR DataLabs podcast which is also on the HR DataLabs website plus the HR channel dot TV did I say the HR channel dot TV I mean I'm looking up it's

[00:43:21] on Fire TV as well as Roku it's an app on Fire TV and Roku so you on yeah that's cool wait till you watch yourself on TV oh I'll throw up I can't when my mom do these things and she'll

[00:43:51] be like you look a little fat it's true that it adds 10 pounds when you're on TV look you look like you're eating that's okay just keep the audio portion see that is why I did podcast I actually used to say that I have a face for radio so just hear me out all right a lot of us do that Ashley it's actually my tagline oh that's hilarious I have a face for radio

[00:44:21] I I sit in this stuff every day now but it was super exciting to have you on David as I knew you would be an awesome podcast guest and so I thank you for that thank you so much I want to make sure that we know the big takeaway is that comp isn't actually a math problem it's a truth telling problem so make

[00:44:51] sure that we're telling the truth to our candidates to our employees that we're making sure that they have growth and doing all the things if you really need help with compensation benchmarking or figuring all the career architecture or job architecture out HR data labs does an awesome job at this work and I am inspired by them every day follow us wherever you get your podcast follow us on Instagram LinkedIn Blue Sky YouTube please subscribe on YouTube

[00:45:21] I'd love to see you subscribe to our new newsletter on Beehive and join the community from our website on talentless podcast dot com please please I love everyone who listens to us I'd love to hear your dumb dumb stories I'd love to hear all the things you have feedback on the podcast DM me on LinkedIn you know where to find us thank you so much bye bye thank you bye