Building Trust and Leadership Through Hybrid Work with Anthony Abbatiello, PwC

[00:00:10] Hey, this is William Tedkup and Ryan Leary, and you are listening to the You Should Know podcast, hopefully watching the You Should Know podcast.

[00:00:18] Today we have Anthony on from PwC, and we're going to be talking about findings from PwC's inaugural Workforce Radar Report.

[00:00:28] So we're very excited about it. We planned this before HR Tech, actually, and didn't get to track Anthony or PwC down to find out exactly what it is.

[00:00:37] So Ryan and I are actually really excited to learn what is the report and obviously all the findings.

[00:00:45] So Anthony, how are you doing today?

[00:00:47] I'm doing well, thanks, William.

[00:00:49] Sure, sure, sure. And tell us a little bit about your role at PwC.

[00:00:54] Yeah, so I lead our human capital consulting business for PwC, so we call it Workforce Transformation.

[00:01:00] So it's everything that we do around HR, talent, leadership, culture, compensation, rewards, workforce technology, AI.

[00:01:08] You know, kind of anything that touches a worker in terms of, you know, process, operation, technology is in our bailiwick.

[00:01:17] I've been in this game for almost 30 years. It kind of hurts me to say that.

[00:01:22] But I've always been in consulting and, you know, kind of always around, you know, human capital.

[00:01:28] And I get the good fortune leading this practice, this business.

[00:01:32] I get the good fortune not just to lead the business and be in the market, but also kind of to lead our research, our eminence, our thought leadership.

[00:01:40] And so as a advisor, practitioner, and student of all things human capital and workforce, I enjoy my job every day.

[00:01:49] That's awesome.

[00:01:50] Not always the case.

[00:01:51] Enjoying the job is a good thing.

[00:01:53] Yeah.

[00:01:54] And don't worry, Anthony, don't worry. We only heard going on 10 years.

[00:01:59] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:02:00] Because you're saying, looking at me, you're like, there's no way this guy.

[00:02:03] My God, what were you?

[00:02:05] Eight years old when you started? What are you doing here?

[00:02:07] Exactly.

[00:02:08] I would have said seven years max.

[00:02:11] Exactly.

[00:02:12] Exactly.

[00:02:12] Thank you.

[00:02:13] I'm glad that your screen and your video is coming through fuzzy for me.

[00:02:18] Wait, never mind. I just cleared up.

[00:02:20] I got you.

[00:02:20] Now I'm done on hard.

[00:02:22] Definitely 30.

[00:02:23] Definitely 30.

[00:02:25] Well, the cool thing about being in an industry for that many years is you get to see all kinds of change.

[00:02:33] I mean, just if we were to just go through any of the technologies, you've been through on-premise to SaaS, from SaaS to mobile or responsive design to social to AI.

[00:02:49] Oh, my goodness.

[00:02:51] What's going to happen?

[00:02:52] Like, you've got to see several of these things that were supposedly, how are we going to survive this new onslaught of whatever, only to find out, you know, okay, yeah.

[00:03:04] It is a change.

[00:03:06] Yes, got it.

[00:03:08] However, it is another transformation.

[00:03:11] Mm-hmm.

[00:03:13] Oh.

[00:03:15] I love that.

[00:03:16] I love talking to people that actually have stayed, because you could have worked in 20 or 40 different industries.

[00:03:22] So, like, you could have done all kinds of different things, right?

[00:03:25] Yeah.

[00:03:26] So, the fact that you've stayed at the large.

[00:03:28] And you joke about that.

[00:03:30] Like, listening to you say it's like the technology landscape, but you just even think about 30 years, people even like in HR were talking about personnel, right?

[00:03:39] Personnel and payroll, right?

[00:03:40] You know, one of my first clients was plugging in PeopleSoft client server version where we had to, like, you know, worry about the little icon downloading to the desktop of the workstation.

[00:03:53] And, you know, that was the biggest change and the biggest threat.

[00:03:57] Oh, that was huge.

[00:03:57] That was huge.

[00:03:58] The CDs.

[00:03:59] They sent you a box of CDs.

[00:04:01] I mean, you had to put the CDs.

[00:04:03] Yes.

[00:04:04] Yeah.

[00:04:04] I mean, it was crazy.

[00:04:06] And, like, uploading it to the server and then distributing.

[00:04:09] It was crazy.

[00:04:10] One of my friends did an install, I think of PeopleSoft at Kimberly Clark.

[00:04:16] And he was the IT lead.

[00:04:17] And he was talking about, man, my whole week, next week, I got all these CDs.

[00:04:22] I got them.

[00:04:22] I got them.

[00:04:23] I got a watch.

[00:04:24] Was his, what he said.

[00:04:25] I got to watch these CDs.

[00:04:27] I'm, like, now thinking, I'm, like, you watch the CDs?

[00:04:31] Like, what did you watch?

[00:04:35] You watched them go in and then run?

[00:04:39] Someone's job was just to put them in and wait for it all to upload.

[00:04:42] I mean, it was.

[00:04:43] 100%.

[00:04:44] 100%.

[00:04:44] And you know what?

[00:04:46] We laugh.

[00:04:47] But that was cutting edge.

[00:04:49] It was cutting edge.

[00:04:50] It was.

[00:04:50] 100%.

[00:04:51] That was cutting edge.

[00:04:52] And if they messed it up.

[00:04:54] Yeah.

[00:04:55] No bueno.

[00:04:56] Wasn't good.

[00:04:56] No bueno.

[00:04:57] No, no, no.

[00:04:57] Wait a minute.

[00:04:58] No.

[00:04:58] You got to call somebody.

[00:04:59] You got to call somebody.

[00:05:01] Actually, I mean, a lot of those installs, they were deployed with consulting firms because

[00:05:07] they were so tricky.

[00:05:10] And it was a massive change.

[00:05:12] Like, we laugh about it now, but it was a big thing then.

[00:05:16] And then the switch to SaaS.

[00:05:19] Oh, my God.

[00:05:20] Like, to not have it on premise, going through all that change and change management and

[00:05:26] transformation.

[00:05:27] So, I actually like, I like that you have that experience.

[00:05:31] I mean, you have that experience.

[00:05:33] You've got client experience.

[00:05:34] So, tell us a little bit about the why this report, why you wanted to do this.

[00:05:40] What was it?

[00:05:40] Yeah.

[00:05:40] So, it's a little twofold, right?

[00:05:43] One was, it was a bit of a, you know, I don't have children.

[00:05:46] So, we'll talk about this like my baby.

[00:05:50] So, part of it was that, you know, just personal passion.

[00:05:52] But two, there was this sort of gap in the market around what research is telling clients.

[00:06:03] And so, we have this hypothesis.

[00:06:05] So, this was 13 months ago.

[00:06:07] We had this hypothesis that, you know, I've led a lot of research programs, you know, around

[00:06:14] human capital, human capital trends, HR trends.

[00:06:16] And, you know, I sort of studied that and leadership and everything.

[00:06:18] Everything kind of looks back.

[00:06:20] You know, I spent time last week at HR Tech in Vegas.

[00:06:22] And everything's kind of like, here's new.

[00:06:24] This is what people are doing now.

[00:06:26] Kind of get on the train, right?

[00:06:28] And, you know, we had this hypothesis that, you know, everyone's constantly looking back and

[00:06:32] saying, what is everyone else doing?

[00:06:34] And should I be doing that too?

[00:06:36] And nobody, there hasn't been a piece of research that has said, here's the map, right?

[00:06:42] If you want to get from point A to point B, here's what you have to do.

[00:06:45] And so, we went after this to say, and hence the radar idea was, is there a place where,

[00:06:51] you know, a piece of sky that we could color that would basically help us advise the market

[00:06:57] around what are the types of levers that they have available to themselves to actually

[00:07:04] achieve their business results?

[00:07:05] I know that sounds very consulting-y and it's like, sort of like, yeah, sure.

[00:07:09] Like, of course, like that's a no-brainer, right?

[00:07:12] Like, who doesn't want the things that help them meet their business results?

[00:07:15] You'd be shocked at how many HR organizations and I mean, HR functions, talent organizations,

[00:07:20] CEOs that really don't understand the workforce lever.

[00:07:24] And so, we endeavored to really prove out, you know, how do we give actionable insights

[00:07:31] that are future-oriented, that are not pie in the sky, right?

[00:07:35] Two to three years, we kind of kept ourselves bucketed at two to three years.

[00:07:39] What are the ways that they could evolve their workforce in order to meet their business

[00:07:43] objective, keep pace with change in today's environment, and drive that?

[00:07:49] And, you know, what came of that was, you know, this concept of a radar, right?

[00:07:54] You know, you kind of, you think about it like spinning and kind of noting these different

[00:07:57] signals on the radar.

[00:07:59] And, you know, you say, that's the GPS, right?

[00:08:02] I can take this route.

[00:08:04] But wait, there's a detour.

[00:08:06] I could turn here and I can save five minutes.

[00:08:09] Where do I have to do that?

[00:08:10] So, it's not that here's the recipe book.

[00:08:12] Go do these 10 things and you'll be successful.

[00:08:14] Because in the end, it's great for marketing, but it doesn't actually work that way.

[00:08:20] And so, we knew that.

[00:08:21] I've just said it.

[00:08:23] Yeah.

[00:08:23] You know, and I've read, I mean, if you look at my bookshelf next to me, I mean, I had

[00:08:27] so many books on like leadership and running business transformation.

[00:08:30] And they all just basically regurgitate the same thing.

[00:08:32] You know, some executive retires and then says, oh, you know, when I was leading XYZ company.

[00:08:38] And it's just, you know, we're saying the same thing.

[00:08:39] Like a lot of it is sort of sophomoric.

[00:08:42] And so, anyway, we sought after this.

[00:08:47] And, you know, again, we recognize that there was an urgent need for businesses to really

[00:08:52] understand the workforce lever, to adapt technology more rapidly and do so in this post-pandemic

[00:09:00] environment is very different.

[00:09:02] And so, you know, it was a year-long research program.

[00:09:06] Myself and four of the partners from my practice, we led the research.

[00:09:10] It kind of took us through 20,000.

[00:09:13] You know, we did a 20,000 person input, data input.

[00:09:18] You know, we studied about 150 companies.

[00:09:20] We kind of, we amassed all the data that PwC sits on and said, okay, how do we triangulate

[00:09:27] all of this information, right?

[00:09:28] And so that led us to Workforce Radar.

[00:09:31] We launched two weeks ago.

[00:09:33] It's been, you know, great pickup.

[00:09:35] You know, I think we're really, what's been great, and, you know, I shared a lot of this

[00:09:39] at HR Tech last week.

[00:09:40] It's been great is that, you know, whether you're a CHRO, a CEO, or, you know, you're

[00:09:45] a HR Tech professional, there is meaning in all of this for everybody because you can apply

[00:09:52] it.

[00:09:53] We constantly were, you know, kind of picking at each other saying, yeah, you know, that

[00:09:57] sounds good, but how would a company do that, right?

[00:10:00] You know, and, you know, this company we research, like Lowe's and Fannie Mae, right?

[00:10:04] They're in the, they're in the research.

[00:10:06] We were just like, how did you really do that?

[00:10:08] Like, what decisions did you make to get you there?

[00:10:10] Like, okay, so how does that map to what we, what we're seeing in the market?

[00:10:13] It's pragmatic.

[00:10:15] It's future oriented.

[00:10:16] It's all about using the workforce lever right through these five signals to drive results,

[00:10:22] to get to the destination where you're headed, whether that's business model reinvention,

[00:10:26] new products and services, cost optimization, moving your headquarters, which is a big one.

[00:10:32] That's really what it delivers.

[00:10:34] Nothing, as it sounds, Ryan, nothing was off limits.

[00:10:38] You went into this without a, you know.

[00:10:41] True.

[00:10:42] Again, us being around for a long time.

[00:10:45] Sometimes research is, you already kind of know the outcome.

[00:10:48] You already kind of know what you want it to say.

[00:10:50] Right.

[00:10:51] And so you do research that basically comes back and says what you wanted it to say.

[00:10:56] So that you can say, hey, we surveyed a thousand people and it says exactly what we said.

[00:11:03] That's.

[00:11:03] It would say, it sounds like y'all had just a, y'all I'm from Texas.

[00:11:08] That's a, it's a.

[00:11:09] To write a married to a Mississippian.

[00:11:11] Oh my.

[00:11:12] There's a lot of y'alls in my house.

[00:11:14] There's a whole lot of y'alls.

[00:11:16] That's just, that's a colloquialism.

[00:11:17] No worries.

[00:11:19] It really does sound like y'all had a white or a blank screen.

[00:11:22] And you just said, you know what?

[00:11:24] Let's see where this thing takes us.

[00:11:26] And not in many ways.

[00:11:28] There's some controversy in the report and the findings because there's not, you know,

[00:11:35] it's easy for us to do a survey, right?

[00:11:38] And say, yeah, here's what the survey told us, right?

[00:11:41] We had to really come off the fence in a lot of places.

[00:11:44] Like, you know, if you look at the location signal, it's a topic that I thought we, you

[00:11:50] know, five years after the pandemic, four or five years after the pandemic, right?

[00:11:53] We would be done talking about location and return to office.

[00:11:56] And we're still here talking about it.

[00:11:58] So.

[00:11:58] I feel like we just started.

[00:12:01] Thank you.

[00:12:01] Yeah, I know.

[00:12:02] And I want to put my head into a wall.

[00:12:04] Me too.

[00:12:05] Because of it.

[00:12:06] Tell me when you do it because I want to do it simultaneously because.

[00:12:10] Yeah.

[00:12:10] Ryan and I have a new show and on Sundays and every week we talk about RTO.

[00:12:17] Every week.

[00:12:18] Yeah.

[00:12:18] You can't get away from it.

[00:12:19] I'm sorry.

[00:12:19] I'm sorry.

[00:12:20] I really.

[00:12:20] It's your fault.

[00:12:22] It is.

[00:12:22] It is absolutely not your fault.

[00:12:25] Since we've got someone that knows what they're talking about here, let me ask you,

[00:12:29] why does RTO, why does return to office fail?

[00:12:32] Why is it failing?

[00:12:34] What can companies do different?

[00:12:36] You know, so what's interesting in the research, we found that of all the employees, right?

[00:12:42] All the workers, right?

[00:12:43] Because we looked at employees, non-employees, gig workers, all the workers, those that are

[00:12:47] most engaged and highest performing are hybrid workers, right?

[00:12:51] So hybrid is working, period, right?

[00:12:53] Highest levels of engagement, highest levels of performance, right?

[00:12:57] Followed by people working in person, right?

[00:13:00] On the job and in person.

[00:13:03] On location.

[00:13:04] Third is remote.

[00:13:05] Right.

[00:13:06] And it's statistically significant.

[00:13:07] I mean, the numbers are not vast.

[00:13:09] It's not like 80% of hybrid workers.

[00:13:11] Right, right, right.

[00:13:11] Hybrid workers are 80% engaged while, you know, people in remote are 20.

[00:13:16] Right.

[00:13:16] You know, but it's statistically significant.

[00:13:18] And so that's one, Ryan, to answer your question.

[00:13:22] One is, you know, hybrid workers are more engaged.

[00:13:26] Forcing doesn't work.

[00:13:27] That's the second point.

[00:13:28] The mandates are failing.

[00:13:30] Every company that is announcing CEO says, everyone has to return to the office.

[00:13:34] Doesn't work.

[00:13:35] Right.

[00:13:36] You disenfranchise the workers.

[00:13:37] Right.

[00:13:38] You create a lack of trust.

[00:13:39] Right.

[00:13:40] Yeah.

[00:13:40] You know, people don't understand.

[00:13:41] Like, I don't know.

[00:13:42] I'm doing, we were extremely effective during the pandemic and productive.

[00:13:46] I'm still working.

[00:13:47] I'm going to the location.

[00:13:51] The second piece is, you know, because of that, they're going to those locations and they're

[00:13:55] seeing that.

[00:13:56] The third part is they don't understand.

[00:14:00] It doesn't work because they don't understand the value, the purpose of it.

[00:14:03] Right.

[00:14:04] We write a lot about, we wrote a lot about this in the report and research because location

[00:14:08] mandates are not working.

[00:14:09] We've proven that.

[00:14:10] So what's mandates without purpose?

[00:14:12] Like people are saying, I'm okay.

[00:14:14] I don't mind going to the office.

[00:14:17] I'm okay with it.

[00:14:18] Can we just understand what am I doing when I get there?

[00:14:21] What's the purpose of this location?

[00:14:23] Because when I get there, you know, I'm sure many of your, of your constituents feel the

[00:14:27] same ways.

[00:14:28] I go into the office, not me, Anthony, but when people go to the office, I'm sitting looking

[00:14:31] at a screen all day.

[00:14:32] Right.

[00:14:33] I'm on a zoom call.

[00:14:34] I'm on a zoom call.

[00:14:35] I'm on teams.

[00:14:36] I'm, you know, right.

[00:14:37] You know, I, I scurry out when I have to go get to the back and go to the bathroom and

[00:14:40] I scurry out when I need to get something to eat if I do that.

[00:14:42] But you know, it's, I'm back into this box again, or I'm, you know, if I'm in an open

[00:14:46] work, you know.

[00:14:48] So you put those three things together, people are basically saying no.

[00:14:51] I mean, and you, you know, you see it.

[00:14:52] I mean, I don't, I don't reference companies that are not in the, in the research, but

[00:14:56] you've seen it in the media, right?

[00:14:58] The, the, there's a lot of companies that are announcing mandates.

[00:15:01] And what do you see?

[00:15:02] You see riots, you see people who are, you know, uproar, you know, surveyed for their

[00:15:06] starting petitions, right?

[00:15:08] Is this what you want people to do?

[00:15:10] And the funny part is, which I will underscore the fourth part, which no one is paying attention

[00:15:15] to.

[00:15:16] Again, it was another one of the big surprises is that what happens, you'll see this in the,

[00:15:20] in the intelligent enterprise.

[00:15:22] What happens when I free up all of that productivity, right?

[00:15:26] So in this signal with the location signal, if I'm a hybrid worker and you're forcing me to

[00:15:31] go back to the office, fine.

[00:15:32] Okay.

[00:15:33] Whatever.

[00:15:33] Let's just say I live in San Francisco, right?

[00:15:35] Not major transportation, right?

[00:15:37] I've got to drive, right?

[00:15:39] 30, 40 minutes an hour commuting and pay for parking, right?

[00:15:42] That hour, two hours that I was productive three days out of the week, I was productive

[00:15:47] for two hours, you know, so that six hours of productivity is gone, right?

[00:15:52] So when I, when I provide that six hours of productivity through hybrid work, who's getting

[00:15:57] that?

[00:15:58] So if I'm getting it and I'm the employer, I'm getting six hours per employee per week

[00:16:04] of productivity.

[00:16:06] That's up.

[00:16:06] So it adds up.

[00:16:08] You start to add up, you look at loaded cost rates and, you know, you're in the hundreds

[00:16:11] of millions of dollars for some companies.

[00:16:13] And so, you know, you see that and, you know, what do you want your workers doing?

[00:16:18] I want them, especially with AI, I want them giving me that productivity back.

[00:16:22] I want that innovation back to me.

[00:16:23] I want them to put more into the job.

[00:16:25] So, you know, this, you know, we're sitting in this conundrum of, okay, I get it, right?

[00:16:32] I've been, I've been at work for 30 years.

[00:16:35] I understand the value of being in person and working with my colleagues, full stop.

[00:16:39] I'm a, I'm an office guy, right?

[00:16:40] Just for the record, I'm an office guy.

[00:16:42] That said, you know, so I can't just tell people, hey, this is the way we all learned,

[00:16:48] right?

[00:16:48] This is the way I grew up.

[00:16:49] This is how I learned how to do my job is because I watched somebody do it.

[00:16:53] It's different.

[00:16:54] It's not like that.

[00:16:54] We didn't have these mediums.

[00:16:56] You know, when I started my career in the nineties, there was, there's no zoom.

[00:16:59] There was no, I mean, you know, I used to get on, you know, conference calls, right?

[00:17:02] That was the exciting technology, right?

[00:17:05] All used to hover around the microphone.

[00:17:06] The speaker.

[00:17:07] Right, exactly.

[00:17:08] Can you move closer?

[00:17:09] We can't hear Ryan.

[00:17:10] Can you move closer to the center?

[00:17:11] They're all mute.

[00:17:12] But, you know, we still do have the mute issue.

[00:17:14] We have the mute issue.

[00:17:15] We do have the mute issue.

[00:17:16] The hybrid thing is fascinating to me because I wonder how much of it comes down to choice

[00:17:22] and flexibility for people, for employees.

[00:17:28] And in the sense of it's not a mandate.

[00:17:31] I understand that there's a value.

[00:17:34] Maybe I do or don't understand that there's value, but I can choose.

[00:17:39] I get to choose when I get to choose how or where that, that type of stuff.

[00:17:44] I wonder how much of it's that.

[00:17:46] Like they get a choice in the matter.

[00:17:49] And I love your, I love your take.

[00:17:52] I love your research on purpose.

[00:17:54] There's a, there's a company here in Dallas, not to be named.

[00:17:58] And they went to one day a week in the office and it's on Wednesdays, but that was mandated.

[00:18:05] Everyone's going to be in the office on Wednesdays and they're not going to work.

[00:18:10] They're just going to do soft skill development.

[00:18:13] And so they're going to have me design charrettes and, you know, like different things.

[00:18:18] But on Wednesday, you're going to, you're going to work, but it's not going to be the work, work that you do.

[00:18:26] And it's, it's a hybrid model as well.

[00:18:28] Like the rest of the office is open on those other four days.

[00:18:31] You can come or not come.

[00:18:32] But on Wednesday, you, you, other than vacations and stuff like that, you got to be there.

[00:18:38] But it's fun.

[00:18:39] And, and like people understand.

[00:18:42] But there's purpose to that, William, right?

[00:18:43] I mean, you're, you're, when you, that, that's a strategy.

[00:18:46] That's an actual strategy.

[00:18:47] That's a strategy.

[00:18:48] Yeah.

[00:18:48] How many, how many CEOs have communicated that?

[00:18:52] Not maybe that per one, but a strategy around why they have RTO.

[00:18:57] That's the, you know, when you look at, when you, when you correlate the second signal around location with the fifth signal around leadership and trust, right?

[00:19:07] The trust, the trust factor is decreasing, right?

[00:19:10] So you put this mandate, right?

[00:19:12] And trusting leaders and trusting companies, particularly, you know, public companies is decreasing, right?

[00:19:17] So the trust index is going down.

[00:19:19] And so you put this mandate on them and they're like, okay, the work workers are saying, okay, for what?

[00:19:25] Right.

[00:19:26] And you don't have an answer.

[00:19:27] Right.

[00:19:27] Again, people, people want to be led.

[00:19:29] I mean, I'm a, I'm a student of leadership.

[00:19:31] People want, humans want to be led.

[00:19:33] They don't want to be out just roaming the earth freely.

[00:19:36] You know, maybe, you know, some do, but most people want to be led.

[00:19:39] Right.

[00:19:39] And you look at, you know, study the Serengeti, right?

[00:19:41] People hunt in packs for safety, right?

[00:19:43] For food.

[00:19:44] See, people don't want to be alone.

[00:19:45] They don't, they want to be led.

[00:19:47] And so if you give them a reason and you give them that purpose, not only is it affecting the location, that's a strategy, but now you're also, you're engendering trust, right?

[00:19:57] In, in the, in the company and in leadership.

[00:20:00] And people are saying, okay, I get it.

[00:20:01] You know, I may not like this, but I, I can understand why we're doing it.

[00:20:05] So, okay, so now it's on me.

[00:20:06] And I, you know, if I want that flexibility, right to your point around the choices that we can offer, then, you know, that there are ways, ways around.

[00:20:14] So the, the, the point about trust, Anthony, I think this is a big one.

[00:20:18] Loyalty, trust from employee to company and how the leadership communicates in Williams example.

[00:20:26] You're going to come in on Wednesdays, but this is for development.

[00:20:30] Don't worry about work, right?

[00:20:31] You're going to, you're going to work at home.

[00:20:33] You're going to do your thing.

[00:20:33] We need you to come in Wednesdays for development, right?

[00:20:37] The communication is key there, but that's not happening, obviously for a lot of companies.

[00:20:43] We should say not, not every company, but what can a company do to help rebuild that trust?

[00:20:49] So the report touches on all this, but what are you seeing that companies are actually doing versus pontificating on how to build trust and loyalty back into the rank and file of the company?

[00:21:03] Yeah.

[00:21:03] I mean, the biggest, the biggest thing, Ryan is, is transparent communication.

[00:21:08] And I mean, you don't need me to tell you that I'm, you know, I'm not a Rhodes Scholar, but in transparent communication, it can increase organizational trust by 35% overnight.

[00:21:18] Right.

[00:21:18] Just being able to say, you know, you know, there's those simple frameworks of here's what I know.

[00:21:23] Here's what I don't know.

[00:21:24] And here's what I'm committed to coming back to you with.

[00:21:26] Right.

[00:21:27] Right.

[00:21:27] That makes sense.

[00:21:28] It works.

[00:21:28] It works.

[00:21:29] And people say, I get it.

[00:21:30] You're being honest.

[00:21:32] I mean, it's funny is we just, we went through COVID and the C-suite got great at this really quickly.

[00:21:40] At least it felt like.

[00:21:41] Because they had to.

[00:21:42] No, it definitely felt like a way.

[00:21:45] Because, you know, there's so much up in the air.

[00:21:48] They wanted to calm everyone down, make sure everyone understood the purpose, et cetera.

[00:21:51] So it seems like we got good at it on some level at C-suite.

[00:21:57] And then all of a sudden, once things settled down and we got out of COVID, they went back to kind of 2019 for some reason.

[00:22:07] Is that?

[00:22:08] Yeah.

[00:22:08] First of all, that's my imagination.

[00:22:10] But is that ish?

[00:22:11] I see it across.

[00:22:12] I mean, I advise and coach chief executives and senior leaders all the time.

[00:22:18] And I'm always talking about transparent communication.

[00:22:20] I talked with one of my clients this morning.

[00:22:23] You can't just lead by, you know, you know what you're doing and you're really smart and you know how to run this company.

[00:22:29] People don't necessarily always want that.

[00:22:32] They actually want to hear, you know, that you're listening.

[00:22:36] They want to know that you're being transparent and you're sharing.

[00:22:38] And actually, vulnerability is really important in today's world.

[00:22:41] Like, we are all humans, right?

[00:22:42] I don't have all the answers, but I'm committed to finding them.

[00:22:46] I'm committed to getting them.

[00:22:47] And I'll come back to you with that.

[00:22:49] But, you know, that's why I use RTO, right?

[00:22:52] When you just say, you know, chief executive X says everyone back to the office five days a week, right?

[00:22:59] And everyone's sitting back and saying, for what?

[00:23:02] Right.

[00:23:02] If you said, okay, I want everyone back to the office five days a week.

[00:23:06] Culture at company X is so important that we want to use the time in the office to invest in apprenticeship and collaboration.

[00:23:13] And so, you know, we're investing in the resources to do that.

[00:23:17] On Wednesdays, we're going to have learning days.

[00:23:19] On, you know, you're going to see new technology in the office to help you with collaborating with other locations.

[00:23:24] You're going to see opportunity.

[00:23:26] You know, it's not just about like the workers told us.

[00:23:29] They don't really actually care about food and the fringe benefits in the office.

[00:23:33] Yeah.

[00:23:34] They really don't.

[00:23:35] They care about none of that.

[00:23:36] I mean, it's like, that's great.

[00:23:37] You know, sure.

[00:23:38] Those, they really care about fair pay.

[00:23:41] And after fair pay, they care about flexibility.

[00:23:44] They care about time off.

[00:23:46] They care about certain benefits.

[00:23:48] They really care a lot about, surprisingly, financial education, financial wellness.

[00:23:52] Financial wellness.

[00:23:53] Really important.

[00:23:53] Really important.

[00:23:54] And so, when you start to look at, you know, we do a lot of conjoint analysis of preferences of workers in terms of so we can help companies select the right benefit programs and where they can reduce costs.

[00:24:05] You'd be surprised.

[00:24:06] You know, people always say, no, no, no.

[00:24:07] We have to have this, you know, yoga benefit.

[00:24:09] Or we need to have this, you know, mental health benefit.

[00:24:12] Because, you know, it's really important for us as our brand.

[00:24:14] And I'm like, totally.

[00:24:15] You probably do need it.

[00:24:16] But do you need to be spending the millions of dollars on it and you're only getting 1% utilization?

[00:24:20] Right.

[00:24:20] Just offer it to people when they need it, you know, and they'll pay by the drink.

[00:24:26] So, it's just, it's all of those things together.

[00:24:29] Coming back to that transparent communication, just being honest and sharing that purpose, well, does really engender trust.

[00:24:39] It's a bedrock for firming up the culture of the organization.

[00:24:44] And culture is not just, you know, like the placards and the mugs that say, you know, we're collaborative people.

[00:24:48] We're innovative.

[00:24:49] Yeah.

[00:24:50] Rah, rah.

[00:24:51] It's the way, you know, the way things get done around here, right?

[00:24:55] It's the way leaders behave.

[00:24:56] If you have to tell people you're collaborative, you're not collaborative.

[00:24:59] You're not.

[00:24:59] Yeah.

[00:25:00] So, as we look towards the future then, what are we looking at in terms of challenges?

[00:25:05] What are companies going to be looking at facing challenges in the next few years?

[00:25:09] You're bringing this back to the report.

[00:25:10] I'll bring this back to the report.

[00:25:11] I see what he's doing.

[00:25:12] I'm doing my job.

[00:25:14] I was going to say, you're doing well.

[00:25:15] You know, when you look to the future, I mean, let's talk about what's happening in the future, particularly in the United States, right?

[00:25:21] In the next two to three years, right?

[00:25:22] Obviously, we're looking at, you know, change in president.

[00:25:27] So, we'll have a new administration, right?

[00:25:29] Regardless of who wins.

[00:25:30] Right.

[00:25:31] But we'll have a change in administration, right?

[00:25:33] We have inflation, right?

[00:25:36] That, you know, continues to be, you know, volatile.

[00:25:40] I don't necessarily see it like that, but people feel like it is.

[00:25:43] We have uncertainty about the economy.

[00:25:46] Again, we've had the fastest growth in our GDP than anyone else returning from COVID, right?

[00:25:51] We are.

[00:25:51] Equity markets are growing.

[00:25:54] Economists are, I mean, you can go talk to 10 economists and they're all like, I have no idea what is going on.

[00:26:03] Yeah.

[00:26:04] And so-

[00:26:04] When you get them alone, they'll tell you that.

[00:26:06] Not on a podcast, but alone.

[00:26:07] Of course not.

[00:26:08] They'll literally go, this doesn't make sense because these indicators are going this direction, but yet people feel completely different than what they should feel.

[00:26:19] And it's just, it is, it's, yeah, it is.

[00:26:22] Mind-boggling.

[00:26:23] It's a climate of fear.

[00:26:24] It's fear.

[00:26:25] Yeah.

[00:26:25] Well, we've become, you know, a culture of fear, right?

[00:26:30] There's been a lot of fear mongering, right?

[00:26:31] Especially in the United States.

[00:26:33] So you add those two.

[00:26:34] Then you add on, you know, obviously geopolitical, right?

[00:26:37] We have three different wars that are happening, you know, with our allies.

[00:26:42] You add into that a probably a decent amount of pent up consolidation that has to happen across industries, right?

[00:26:51] Agreed.

[00:26:52] With capital being more expensive the last three, four years than it was the previous 10, 15 years, you know, since the GFC.

[00:27:01] Something's got to happen.

[00:27:03] Something is going to happen, right?

[00:27:04] You're going to see, I mean, we saw 45% of CEOs that we researched said that they don't believe their organization, their company is economically viable in the next 10 years, right?

[00:27:14] Poof, gone.

[00:27:15] Wow.

[00:27:16] Gone.

[00:27:17] 40%, 45%?

[00:27:18] 45.

[00:27:19] Last year it was 40.

[00:27:20] This year it's 40.

[00:27:22] It's a big number.

[00:27:23] Not going the right way.

[00:27:25] No, right?

[00:27:26] And you say that, it's like, okay, what's happening?

[00:27:28] But that means they have to innovate, right?

[00:27:29] That's the...

[00:27:30] Or reinvent, that is...

[00:27:33] Right.

[00:27:33] I mean, you look at some of these, you're seeing it happen, right?

[00:27:35] You're seeing consolidation happening in oil and gas, right?

[00:27:39] You're starting to see that happen in some, you know, big tech.

[00:27:42] And there's smaller pieces that are happening, right?

[00:27:44] So you see that in communications and telecom.

[00:27:47] I think we're going to see a lot of pent up change.

[00:27:50] We're going to see a lot of transformational change from a consolidation.

[00:27:54] So you look at all that, right?

[00:27:55] So every day I step outside, there's going to be a massive amount of change that's happening in the future.

[00:28:01] So, you know, when you look at that, it really, again, and hence the, you know, the genesis of our hypothesis and how we got to this research.

[00:28:09] You know, you look at those things and you say, okay, for you to actually be successful, right?

[00:28:16] That's where we got to the five signals.

[00:28:17] So we said the five things are, one is you have to figure out everyone has to be a talent magnet and a talent factor.

[00:28:24] Right.

[00:28:24] So it's, you know, number one signal, not ranked wise, but that's the first signal.

[00:28:28] And we thought when we started this research, like it was an either or, like your talent magnet over here, your talent factor over here, kind of where, where are you along the sort of value chain?

[00:28:37] You need to be both.

[00:28:38] So it's both.

[00:28:39] And then how much are you dialing?

[00:28:40] Like it's two dials.

[00:28:41] So how much do you dial up each of them based on your business, right?

[00:28:45] If you're high growth, right?

[00:28:47] Talent magnet.

[00:28:47] If you are, right, stability, innovation, talent factory, right?

[00:28:51] Like develop capabilities versus acquire and attract.

[00:28:56] The second is location.

[00:28:57] We talked about that at Nauseam at the top of the show.

[00:29:00] The intelligent enterprise.

[00:29:01] It's really about, you know, how do we get our workforce technology, right?

[00:29:06] Human capital, like all the stuff that was at HR Tech.

[00:29:08] Human capital clouds.

[00:29:11] You know, workforce experience.

[00:29:13] You know, how do we get ourselves ready for AI and generative AI as a whole?

[00:29:16] And then what do we do without we get that productivity gain?

[00:29:19] I mean, how do we prepare for that?

[00:29:20] So like everyone, when we did our research, right?

[00:29:22] We talked to CHROs and CEOs, right?

[00:29:23] Off the charts, numbers of people that are experimenting with generative AI, right?

[00:29:29] You're in the 70%, 70% in the executive ranks.

[00:29:33] Then you get it down to the individual contributor or the lower ranks.

[00:29:35] It's like 30%, 40%.

[00:29:37] So that should be reversed, right?

[00:29:39] We need our workers on the ground innovating with technology around generative AI.

[00:29:42] I'm not.

[00:29:43] Let me ask you a quick question about that, Anthony, because I've had this thought.

[00:29:47] I don't know how stupid it is.

[00:29:50] I'm willing to tell you the answer to that.

[00:29:51] Okay, fantastic.

[00:29:52] Great.

[00:29:53] Somebody needs to.

[00:29:54] Ryan tells me every day.

[00:29:55] So does my wife.

[00:29:56] But however, this is around how we're going to learn generative AI and AI in general.

[00:30:02] Like it seems that everyone's, the expectation is everyone go home and play or everyone go home and try stuff.

[00:30:11] Why?

[00:30:12] Why isn't it the company, like going back to a return to office?

[00:30:18] Why isn't it we're going to go and learn?

[00:30:21] Like we're going to try a different tool today.

[00:30:23] There's, you know, 8,000 different tools being developed every day.

[00:30:27] All right, let's try this video tool.

[00:30:29] All right.

[00:30:30] And then see what's there, what's not there, what we can use for clients and maybe what we can use for the business.

[00:30:35] Like it just seems that that could be an engagement model and a learning model at the same time.

[00:30:43] It's like, okay, we're all going to learn together rather than everyone go off in their own directions and go learn something that's bespoke.

[00:30:52] That, again, when you learn something, you might not bring it up because you might think that everyone else already knows that.

[00:30:59] Like you think that your prompt is so unique.

[00:31:02] And all of a sudden, I know employees well enough to know that they don't want to look bad in front of their peers.

[00:31:09] Now, if everybody's in a conference room or everyone's on a Zoom call or whatever and we try something, well, there's no bad idea.

[00:31:16] What if we did this?

[00:31:17] What if we did that?

[00:31:18] It just seems like a wonderful opportunity to learn together.

[00:31:22] I agree.

[00:31:23] I think we have to democratize the learning, right?

[00:31:26] Upskilling is the big term, right?

[00:31:27] Upskilling everyone around generative AI, right?

[00:31:31] I'll use PwC as an example.

[00:31:33] We have 75,000 employees.

[00:31:34] We skilled everyone up on generative AI.

[00:31:37] We rolled out of MyAI Academy.

[00:31:38] We have prompting parties.

[00:31:40] We get people together to talk about what are the right ways to use chat PwC.

[00:31:45] It's great, right?

[00:31:46] It's now put everybody in the place where whether you're client service or you're serving the firm, right?

[00:31:52] We've democratized that.

[00:31:53] And that's the model, right?

[00:31:55] I hate to fluff our own feathers, but we are that.

[00:31:58] We're that model.

[00:31:59] I thought you misspoke and said chat GPT the wrong way, but you said chat PwC.

[00:32:05] All right.

[00:32:05] You actually said it the right way.

[00:32:07] And prompting parties.

[00:32:09] That didn't go unheard.

[00:32:11] What is a prompting party?

[00:32:12] That's great.

[00:32:12] Tell me more.

[00:32:13] Well, it's like you remember the days of hackathons, right?

[00:32:16] We'd get in.

[00:32:16] We'd stay up all night.

[00:32:17] We'd eat pizza.

[00:32:18] I mean, granted, we're not doing that.

[00:32:19] But we're getting together and we're talking about effective prompting, right?

[00:32:23] And how to use – what are the right prompts?

[00:32:24] What are the right way to use prompts?

[00:32:26] And like I use this.

[00:32:27] Look, let me show you what happens when you do the difference between this and everyone just gets together and shows.

[00:32:31] And we make it a lunch event and we do that in our location.

[00:32:34] Like it's a reason to get people in the office.

[00:32:36] Not that I want to spend all their time in the office, but it's a great way of being together and networking and building connectivity, right?

[00:32:42] Well, that makes sense, though, because you have – I mean, obviously not all 75,000 care about this, right?

[00:32:48] But I'm assuming there's a healthy number of people at PwC that actually care about this and want to be part of it, right?

[00:32:56] And this is interesting to them.

[00:32:57] So this is something that benefits them to come into the office.

[00:33:00] Correct.

[00:33:00] I don't think anybody wants to be left behind, Ryan.

[00:33:03] So I'd say that all 75,000 do want to learn some element of this because no one wants to be –

[00:33:09] I know some people that would not mind.

[00:33:13] I don't know.

[00:33:14] It just seems like no one wants to be left completely behind.

[00:33:16] They shouldn't.

[00:33:16] They shouldn't.

[00:33:17] They shouldn't.

[00:33:19] Somebody asked me that last night.

[00:33:22] It was my trainer.

[00:33:23] He asked me that this morning.

[00:33:25] He's like, oh, do you use a lot of AI?

[00:33:27] And I was like, yeah, of course.

[00:33:28] I'm like, do you?

[00:33:29] And he said, no, not at all.

[00:33:30] I haven't really tried it.

[00:33:31] I was like, don't you have a phone?

[00:33:33] Like, don't you have an iPhone?

[00:33:34] Do you use Siri?

[00:33:35] Of course you use AI.

[00:33:36] Like, it's everywhere.

[00:33:38] It was Alexa.

[00:33:39] It was Siri.

[00:33:40] It was Google.

[00:33:41] But yeah, I mean, it's – on the intelligent enterprise, like I was telling you, we had – I don't know what to say.

[00:33:50] The number, but it was quite low.

[00:33:52] Like the individual contributor is the worker, right?

[00:33:54] Right.

[00:33:54] It's like only 20% or so of those, probably like 30%, 40% when you add in like middle management.

[00:34:01] Right.

[00:34:02] People are not using it.

[00:34:03] And to your point, William, it isn't like go home and figure it out because that's where people are doing it.

[00:34:07] People – we specifically asked at work, right?

[00:34:09] Right.

[00:34:10] Because people are using it in their personal lives.

[00:34:11] They're using all the prompts everywhere.

[00:34:13] But it's at work and say, I met with a technology – one of our technology clients, big technology client in HR.

[00:34:21] And they're saying, yeah, well, I don't know how – like we're just trying to figure out how do we get the licenses for different – you know, from this one, how we pay for them.

[00:34:27] And I'm like, that's the question you're asking?

[00:34:29] Like that shouldn't be the question you're asking.

[00:34:32] Like this is – you know, what you could do with this is so much different.

[00:34:35] So whatever you can afford, like get it, democratize it, get it into the hands of everyone and let them use it and let's find the innovation there.

[00:34:42] So I think that's where this whole idea of the – you know, everyone is going to migrate to being an intelligent enterprise.

[00:34:49] It's just – it's going to happen.

[00:34:51] I got a quick question there about HR because I believe they've been taught over the last 10 to 15 years to build a business case for software, right?

[00:35:03] So build a business case for, you know, Workday or Taleo or whatever the bid is.

[00:35:07] So build a business case.

[00:35:09] Taleo.

[00:35:09] I know.

[00:35:10] I know.

[00:35:11] I miss it too.

[00:35:12] Verve.

[00:35:13] Verve.

[00:35:14] I miss Verve.

[00:35:16] But the thing is they've been taught to build a business case and this is not that.

[00:35:20] Yeah.

[00:35:20] I mean, so it's funny.

[00:35:22] I mean, I don't know if that was a great segue, but you just gave me a – you put the ball in the tee for me because the next signal is about the workforce balance sheet.

[00:35:30] We found – we proved that point, right?

[00:35:32] HR does – really does not understand the total cost of the workforce and really the levers that they have available to them to do what we're talking about, right?

[00:35:42] So, right.

[00:35:43] Building a business case is like I want to buy X licenses for Gen AI and, you know, I need $2 million.

[00:35:50] Like what is that – what am I going to get for that $2 million, right?

[00:35:52] What type of productivity gain?

[00:35:54] And then, you know, it doesn't happen.

[00:35:56] Whereas finance, right, for generations have been saying, right, we need to invest $100 million in a new, you know, ERP platform and we're going to do X, Y, Z.

[00:36:05] Great, here's – where do we sign the check, right?

[00:36:07] HR needs to be that level of success and that level of hero in the boardroom.

[00:36:11] And so the workforce balance sheet signal, we focus all on do you really understand, right?

[00:36:17] We asked every CHRO, right?

[00:36:19] How often are you asked by the CEO or CFO to reduce your headcount, to cut costs, right?

[00:36:25] Lead workforce reductions.

[00:36:26] Like the go-to answer is cut the cost of HR or go to headcount reductions, right?

[00:36:32] Like just take a blunt instrument to the workforce and just cut out as many heads as we can so that we can prove to the street we're doing better.

[00:36:38] It's like that's the wrong answer.

[00:36:39] If that's what's happening, you've missed the opportunity.

[00:36:42] Your opportunity, CHRO, is to look at all of the accountable costs that you have in your workforce balance sheet, right?

[00:36:51] So think of it in like – it's not just HR costs, which somewhere between $2,500 and $3,800 in the U.S. per employee, depending on the size, right?

[00:37:01] It's what you should spend on HR, right?

[00:37:03] You could say, all right, yeah, we're a little above, we're a little below, right?

[00:37:05] That's great.

[00:37:06] But a lot of the HR functions, what happens?

[00:37:09] Or when cut heads or we're not hiring, let's cut all the recruiters.

[00:37:12] Let's get rid of recruiters.

[00:37:13] We don't need to do leadership.

[00:37:14] Let's just cut talent development.

[00:37:15] And then what happens?

[00:37:16] A year later, oh, we need to build skills.

[00:37:18] We got to hire back.

[00:37:19] We got to go hire consultants.

[00:37:20] Don't get me wrong.

[00:37:21] I have a job because of that.

[00:37:22] So I'm happy for it.

[00:37:24] That's what they miss, right?

[00:37:26] It's this constant pendulum.

[00:37:28] And so look at the workforce balance sheet.

[00:37:30] Understand where are the true direct and indirect costs.

[00:37:34] And you'd think I'm speaking in tongues when I talk to clients about that, right?

[00:37:40] What do you mean, Anthony?

[00:37:42] What does it mean to have look at all the direct and indirect costs?

[00:37:46] And I'm like, it's very simple.

[00:37:49] When you start to think about the opportunities that you have available to you, right?

[00:37:54] You know HR that you've got.

[00:37:56] You know our headcount costs.

[00:37:57] But do we understand payroll?

[00:38:00] There are so many payroll anomalies that happen in organizations that people just don't know,

[00:38:04] right?

[00:38:05] Typically, I always tell companies, if you underpay someone, you're going to hear about it.

[00:38:11] But if you overpay someone, do you think they're calling and saying, hey, by the way, I got

[00:38:15] an extra $100 in my paycheck this week?

[00:38:17] But when you get someone who didn't get $100, they're going to tell you, right?

[00:38:21] So when you add up those underpayments, they're usually about equal to your overpayments.

[00:38:26] It's amazing how it works.

[00:38:28] So if you're underpaying by X, you're probably overpaying by the same amount as well.

[00:38:32] That's their tax efficiencies.

[00:38:35] We're talking about all this RTO stuff, right?

[00:38:37] How are you accounting for tax liabilities for someone who lives in Utah, who says they're

[00:38:43] working in Chicago, who's traveling to this location, right?

[00:38:47] Where are your offices, right?

[00:38:49] Where do you have your office locations?

[00:38:51] What's the labor mix?

[00:38:53] What's on balance sheet?

[00:38:54] What's off balance sheet, right?

[00:38:55] What are the employee preferences?

[00:38:57] Like I was talking before about the conjoint analyses that we do around preferences of

[00:39:00] the workforce, right?

[00:39:01] Like most workers are going to say, I'd rather another day of PTO versus some of these fringe

[00:39:06] benefits you're giving us.

[00:39:07] Right.

[00:39:08] Right.

[00:39:08] Some of them are, and by the way, that could be a benefit, or I want a little bit more 401k

[00:39:13] contribution, right?

[00:39:15] Ding, ding, ding, jackpot.

[00:39:17] That's a tax benefit for you as an employer, tax benefit for me as an employee.

[00:39:20] We'll save us both money by getting you what, and make the workforce believe that we're

[00:39:24] just doing it because they want us to do it.

[00:39:26] But these are all things I can get.

[00:39:28] And I tell companies all the time, and we saw it in the research, you could get $1,000

[00:39:33] to $3,000 per employee by just understanding those preferences in savings.

[00:39:38] And that could be your full, go to the board and say, I found, we had one client that found

[00:39:43] $40 million of savings that they could get overnight.

[00:39:47] $40 million.

[00:39:48] That's huge.

[00:39:48] HR, right?

[00:39:49] I found $40 million.

[00:39:50] I can, and go, go to the CFO, go to the CO and say, I can take out $40 million of cost.

[00:39:55] I want $10 million for my, for my function to invest.

[00:39:58] To invest in, in development, to invest in upscaling, to invest in generating AI.

[00:40:03] You think someone's going to say no?

[00:40:05] You know, I'm going to give you 10 million when I can take 30 million to the bottom line?

[00:40:09] How fast can I say yes?

[00:40:10] Right.

[00:40:11] And I mean, it just, but, but HR, HR leaders don't do that.

[00:40:14] Right.

[00:40:14] And it's shocking to me.

[00:40:16] I was.

[00:40:17] I think I know why.

[00:40:18] All right.

[00:40:19] I'm going to guess.

[00:40:20] Oh, please, please.

[00:40:20] I have no empirical evidence to prove this.

[00:40:23] It's a guilt and shame.

[00:40:26] Because if they, if they could go to the CEO and say, I could save us $40 million in cost.

[00:40:32] Why did, why didn't you tell me this six months ago?

[00:40:35] Why didn't you do this a year ago?

[00:40:37] Because they didn't know it six months ago.

[00:40:38] Yeah.

[00:40:39] Yeah.

[00:40:39] But see that there in lies, they don't, they don't want to look bad.

[00:40:43] They don't want to look bad in front of the rest of their peers or their perceived peers in the C-suite.

[00:40:48] So guilt and shame and idea.

[00:40:51] And I did.

[00:40:52] You never got to the fifth.

[00:40:53] We need to get you to the fifth.

[00:40:55] I did.

[00:40:55] We know we talked about it earlier, but it's leadership and trust.

[00:40:58] Like having the right leaders, right.

[00:41:01] Investing in leadership, building trust, transparent communication.

[00:41:05] That's the fifth.

[00:41:05] So if, if we're, I know we're coming up on time, but if we're, if we're wrapping this up into a nice, big, pretty bow, what can companies do, leaders do quickly, immediately to impact the workforce?

[00:41:18] Yeah.

[00:41:19] That is the.

[00:41:20] You get asked this question every day.

[00:41:22] Oh my God.

[00:41:23] This is why he gets paid.

[00:41:25] Silver bullet.

[00:41:26] This is the silver bullet.

[00:41:28] This is the silver bullet question.

[00:41:30] I was going to say, how many millions of tens and twenties and thirties and millions of dollars that, that, that, that, that question is.

[00:41:35] So, you know, I mean, number one, it's, it's understand like this four things.

[00:41:40] One is to understand, you know, their talent strategy.

[00:41:44] Like what, what's happening in the next three years with the business and with what's happening outside.

[00:41:48] Right.

[00:41:50] What's in my sector?

[00:41:51] Like, do I think we're going to be consolidating?

[00:41:52] Do I think we're going to be around?

[00:41:54] Right.

[00:41:54] What's happening in the next three years, both externally and internally?

[00:41:57] Like, what are we trying to achieve?

[00:41:59] What's happening externally within, within that sector?

[00:42:02] I think that's, that is, you know, first to understand the talent strategy.

[00:42:05] The second is, you know, the, the point around the technology that they have, right?

[00:42:12] So many organizations don't understand, you know, they're sitting in legacy systems.

[00:42:17] They don't understand why, you know, what, what are the, you know, the things that, you

[00:42:23] know, we really need, how can we upgrade?

[00:42:25] Are there ways in that infrastructure, that, that tech stack that we could really drive more?

[00:42:30] Some of it's just getting, yeah.

[00:42:32] Just getting out of the applications that they bought, like adoption and usage.

[00:42:39] Like they bought something that's fantastic.

[00:42:41] They're using 40% of it.

[00:42:43] Right.

[00:42:43] Right.

[00:42:43] That's one, you know, part of it is just like cleaning up the plumbing, right?

[00:42:47] So just understand the data technology that you have.

[00:42:49] Is it fit for purpose?

[00:42:51] Are there places where you could retire, replace, right?

[00:42:55] Re-engineer.

[00:42:57] So the third piece really is about the tech stack, you know, really getting yourself ready

[00:43:01] for generating AI.

[00:43:02] The third is like, uncover the cost.

[00:43:04] Like let's look at the workforce balance sheet, right?

[00:43:06] And figure out what are the true, what's the true balance sheet of the workforce?

[00:43:12] And what are the levers that we have available to us, right?

[00:43:14] So understanding the preferences, how much are we spending on benefit programs?

[00:43:17] How does that benchmark against, you know, the market, right?

[00:43:20] There's so many, you know, health and welfare benefit plan brokers, right?

[00:43:26] They make commissions.

[00:43:27] They're going to convince you, hey, you could save a dollar on this plan.

[00:43:29] If you go to this, this plan and they get it, they get a bigger commission on that.

[00:43:32] It's all available to you.

[00:43:34] That's publicly available, right?

[00:43:35] So you could see where all those commissions are.

[00:43:37] And so many times we help clients just to understand that is millions of dollars in savings,

[00:43:41] but just getting a handle on that true cost and that balance sheet.

[00:43:47] And the fourth one, and you know, you kind of can't have any of these conversations saying,

[00:43:51] it's just, you know, do you have the right leaders, right?

[00:43:53] Investing in building transformative leadership capabilities, right?

[00:43:57] You know, most organizations have abandoned the leaders in the organization, right?

[00:44:01] You get to a certain level, we assume because you make a certain amount of money,

[00:44:03] you're going to be just good at the job and that's it.

[00:44:07] And I'm here to tell you that's not the way it works.

[00:44:09] And I work with executives, chief executives, C-suite leaders who are in their fifties and

[00:44:14] sixties, and they will tell me all the time, Anthony, I would do anything for just more of this,

[00:44:19] right?

[00:44:19] More of someone who can advise me, more of someone who helped me develop my skills.

[00:44:22] Like what I was doing 30, 40 years ago, it's not as relevant today.

[00:44:26] So, you know, I need to continue to invest and I'd love the company to help me navigate that

[00:44:31] investment.

[00:44:32] Those are the four things I would say are the key pieces.

[00:44:36] Everyone needs a coach, a mentor, somebody, a sounding board, stuff like that.

[00:44:40] And again, ripping that out and just assuming that someone has it is, well, we all know what assume means.

[00:44:48] So last thing, Anthony, this is fantastic, by the way.

[00:44:53] I'm so glad that y'all took this on to research and also you put a report together.

[00:44:57] Where can they find this?

[00:44:59] Where can the audience find this report?

[00:45:01] Yeah.

[00:45:02] So, um, pwc.com backslash workforce radar is the place.

[00:45:05] If you just search PwC workforce radar, you will hit it as well.

[00:45:09] You can, my, uh, Twitter, my LinkedIn profile, um, AP Abatello always, you can always see,

[00:45:17] I, I, I am always, I'm always posting on these topics.

[00:45:22] I always tell people I don't post anything about cats or kids or anything else.

[00:45:27] Just work.

[00:45:28] I guess I can't say it then.

[00:45:29] Just workforce, just talent, leadership, workforce.

[00:45:31] That's it.

[00:45:32] So interesting.

[00:45:33] That's it.

[00:45:34] That is my social.

[00:45:35] Well, brother, thank you so much for carving out time for the audience and, and, uh, telling

[00:45:40] us about their research.

[00:45:41] We absolutely appreciate you.