A story of support

[00:00:03] Kim, thank you so much for coming back. I know that we see each other all the time, but it's been almost two years now since you joined me on the podcast. Crazy. Yeah. Where did that time go? I don't even want to think about where that time went. Who knows?

[00:00:23] Who knows? Well, I traditionally like to start by giving my guests the chance to briefly introduce herself. So I will hand it over to you for that. And then I definitely want us to talk about the collaborative project we've been working on because it is today's topic. And I appreciate how we both nerd out over feedback.

[00:00:49] We nerd out so hard that we can't actually finish this project we're working on because we just keep finding more things to be nerdy about. I know. We will finish it, though. I feel like we're so close right now. We're so close. So close. Well, I'm Kim. I am a veteran people leader and leading people and culture orgs at various tech companies for the last 15 plus years.

[00:01:17] My background is in theater, specifically dramaturgy for any nerds out there. And yeah, my favorite part of the work is the storytelling.

[00:01:33] That translates into employee experience, journey architecture and internal comms and executive communication and even things like your values and your mission and how you connect those things into everything you do in the HR function and beyond. All of these things really tickle the part of my brain that loves story.

[00:01:59] And so I've been the last couple of years, I've been focusing my consulting practice on HR strategy and storytelling. And yeah, that's where I like to spend most of my time. Yeah, I I love that connection that we started. Our our relationship, if you will. Through storytelling and seeing the connection that we've we've done writing groups together.

[00:02:29] We've done co-writing and it's all focused down in this case to this microcosm because feedback. I think at its heart is storytelling. Absolutely. Yeah, it is absolutely storytelling. Yeah. Let me tell you the story of what you've done. Let me tell you the story of the impact you've had. Let's now write the story of what your future is going to look like.

[00:02:57] That those components of feedback create a narrative for the employee. Right. And if you don't understand. Kind of core storytelling principles and like how story connects people to purpose, then feedback is just, you know, it's me. Everyone say it's meaningless, but it's less meaningful. And it's certainly less useful for the for the receiver and for the giver. Yeah.

[00:03:26] Being able to connect. You know, facts and reflections to a broader context. I was just working with a client where we're talking about how you want your reader to see themselves in your communication, in your story that you're telling. I think the most impactful stories are the ones where people can see themselves and how they fit into the story.

[00:03:51] Whether that's, you know, someone reading fiction and identifying with one of the characters or seeing their best friend in one of the characters. Or it's an employee who is reading about organizational transformation and sees how they fit into the next phase of the business's growth. It's all story. And it's all it's all about how you connect people with meaning. Exactly.

[00:04:16] Well, and in our tightly scoped conversation, it's making certain that it is a true story that people do see themselves in. That it's not foreign or so interpreted that it's easy to dismiss. Right. I mean, we've all gotten performance feedback where you read the feedback and you're like, that doesn't sound accurate or that doesn't resonate with me.

[00:04:45] Or you didn't get it. Like, if you think this is how I do, like, you know, we all get defensive and we get negative feedback or even positive feedback. I've gotten positive feedback before that I'm like, wow, that's really cool that you think that about me. But like, that doesn't resonate at all. Like, oh, how do you think that? And so even positive feedback, if you're not centering the recipient in the feedback,

[00:05:14] it's much more about the giver than it is about the receiver. That's exactly right. I feel the sudden urge to pull up the one text you sent me about this topic before one of our co-working sessions. By text, you mean like a rambling voice note that I texted you while driving? Oh, yeah, that's right. It was a voice note. I was so excited to hear your voice in the middle of the day. I was so excited. I couldn't stop driving to text.

[00:05:41] I had to just have my phone transcribe it to you while I was driving. Yes. Because it's. Like we said, we are nerds. Nerds. Well, it's also part of the. This is. Like, this is why feedback matters, because it turns the focus to the receiver. And that mindset, as well as this whole idea of am I helping with this feedback or how can I help through feedback?

[00:06:11] Is what takes it off of you and reduces some of that anxiety burden that so many people experience. Because it's not about you, dude. It's about that person. Right. So take your. Just strip your ego away. Right. Recognize that you have this opportunity, a responsibility, in fact, to reflect to this person, to tell them the story of their work. And not.

[00:06:41] It's not punishment. It's not. You know. Right. It's not. It's ego stroking. The point of it is not to prove what a good storyteller you are. The point is telling them the story so that you can help them. Yeah. That's the best managers get out of people's way. Right. The best managers are not the ones who are like, feedback is a gift. Here's this gift I'm giving you. Aren't you so glad I gave you this gift? Like, that's. That's not what's going to be helpful to someone.

[00:07:11] Maybe that. Kim, I think you've hit on something because we've talked before about. Our mutual disdain for the feedback is a gift language. And maybe that's it because it does. It puts this burden of, well, you have to express gratitude to me for having done this for you. Mm-hmm. As opposed to let's put the spotlight on you or the outcomes.

[00:07:37] Because it's, again, feedback isn't about the value of the person. It's about the impact that they have in the business setting. Let's spotlight that and let me give you what you need to keep performing or to improve performance. And let's say that it's active, right? Like this idea of feedback is a gift. That's a very one directional point in time. I give you this gift. You receive this gift.

[00:08:07] And now you have it and it's yours. And feedback should not be that way. Feedback should be information that is given to someone in a way that it is the beginning of a conversation. Yes. That it can be actively implemented and used and reflected on and iterated on. And like this idea of feedback being like one directional and of like time bound.

[00:08:34] Like a time bound one directional thing that you could give someone and walk away from. Like that's not useful feedback. So I like, I really hate these feedback as a gift. I'm like, no, feedback is a conversation. Yes, it is. You know, I'm going to, I'm going to pause this a little bit and get us not on track. We're not off track by any stretch. You're very good at getting us back on track. Thank you. Well, you know, we need, we need both sides of this, right? We need the flow and the order.

[00:09:04] But it's this because we have so many thoughts on feedback and we're about to someday in the relatively near future, we're going to publish this guide, which I'm going to share the name of because it makes me laugh every time. It's giving feedback. The ultimate guide to supporting performance with confidence, kindness and precision. So this is coming soon. We'll have lots more on the subject in no time.

[00:09:34] But because we could drill into so many relevant topics, I want to set mechanics aside. I'll definitely devote some time later this month to the practicalities. How do you implement? And the guide will be lots of mechanics as well. But what I'd like us to focus on is the impact of feedback.

[00:10:02] We've started that conversation, but I want to get a little more exactness around how does feedback provide support to employees? How does it make demonstrating care a reality in the workplace? And what are the implications for the workplace, for workplaces that lack feedback? Easy. Yeah. No big deal. Easy. I know. It's just so obvious.

[00:10:32] Well, that's unfortunately the thing. It is so obvious. And it's the human element that complicates it. Right. People always complicate things, don't they? We do. It is our, it's our favorite thing. So I think it might be helpful to share how we've talked about feedback, kind of the one liner in the guide, what's drafted so far.

[00:10:56] As well as the way I've defined it earlier this month in notes on leading well. So that we have this, this is what we mean when we say feedback. Yep. Feedback is the way we ensure people know the results of their efforts. That's from the guide. I agree with that. Good. Good. Phew. We're not off track yet.

[00:11:23] And then it's a little wordier, but the way I've described it earlier this month, episode 22, the skill of feedback is the ability to manage by telling the story of work performance to an employee. If those things are true, and we believe they are, how does that translate toward giving support to people?

[00:11:44] I mean, I think if you, if you think about feedback as, like, don't just read your sentence out loud that you just wrote. Like, if you think about feedback in the context of, of story, and story that is specifically about a story of work performance, to paraphrase ourselves. It's the story you want to tell is a story of support.

[00:12:13] And so what I mean by that is what I was saying before in, you know, it's not a one directional gift that you drop on someone's doorstep and then you walk away and you don't interact with it again. The story that you're telling is the story of how I'm going to support you in utilizing the feedback I'm giving you. And so building in this layer of support, I know we have a, um, a page in the book that goes through a couple different types of feedback.

[00:12:42] And there was a call out that we had made as we were doing it, that every single one of those types of feedback is about how you're going to support someone in doing the thing you're asking them to do. So feedback is not, you know, you're not good at this, or you did a good job on this. Feedback is you're struggling with this and here's how I'm going to help you is the rest of the story.

[00:13:07] Or you did this really well and here's how I'm going to support you in continuing to grow in this area, if that's what we want. Right? Like the support is the piece that I think is missing from so many feedback conversations because people think of it as feedback. I remember you wrote something, I think in the, in the book about, um, the origins of the word feedback in audio signals.

[00:13:36] And even if you think to like that most basic technical, literal definition of feedback, where the term comes from, when you get audio feedback, you change something. Right? I love that. You adapt, you adjust. Like it's not feedback. Okay, great, done. It's feedback. And now what do we need to do? And so that second piece of what do we need to do?

[00:14:02] I think so often is placed on the employee and the burden is on the receiver to take the feedback and figure out what to do with it so that hopefully they get different feedback next time. And there's just so much unknown there. It's such a, like a black box for people that the, the whole idea of feedback becomes uncomfortable. But if a manager approaches it less from a, I mean, I've been there as a manager being like, oh, I need to give this person feedback and to give them the feedback.

[00:14:31] I hope they like do better next time. And, you know, early, early manager days. I thought you just give people feedback and tell them what they need to improve on and check in again in six months. The conversations felt weightier and felt more, I felt more trepidation about having those conversations because I was worried about delivering bad news to someone.

[00:14:58] But if you don't think of it as delivering bad news, if you think about it as opening up a conversation about how you're going to support them, it's a lot less scary to have that conversation as a manager or as a person who's giving feedback because you're not, you're not plopping bad news on someone's porch and walking away. Right. You know, you're offering help. I like the metaphor that you haven't quite fully built out there because it is. You know what I mean?

[00:15:27] People are so much more comfortable offering help than they are giving feedback. So if you make feedback about support, it's a lot easier to have that conversation. Like psychologically, it's a lot easier to have that conversation. And if you build a feedback culture, last point on this, if you build a culture where this is how your company does feedback, where the culture of your company is that we don't give negative feedback without adding the,

[00:15:53] and here's how I or the company are going to support you in this, then it becomes less scary to receive feedback as well. Because people know that they're not going to just be told they're doing a bad job and then walk away or they're not going to be told they're doing a great job, but then nothing's going to come of it. If feedback always comes with a supportive action, and that's part of your feedback culture, then the story employees get is that feedback is how the company supports you. Boom. Boom. Yes. Thesis. I love it. I love it.

[00:16:23] We definitely need to capture this for the book. Because that's the piece that we've been working on most recently, this concept of continuous feedback. And if you think about some of the language I've used in this month's episodes is about this ongoing cadence and back and forth that happens between leader and employee, manager and employee.

[00:16:51] So expectation setting and feedback become the currency of how we are accountable to each other in the workplace. And accountability is always this two-way dialogue. And feedback is, I think, what moves it forward.

[00:17:13] If I just set an expectation for you and then leave it in the void, you're stuck. Yep. You're stuck. You don't know how I did. But feedback then becomes the next step. So that either you can iterate or we can move on to whatever the next piece of work is. Right. That's what pulls it forward. This idea of accountability that you mentioned.

[00:17:41] Like, we talk about accountability so much without really defining what accountability means. And who is accountable and what are they accountable to? And that's like, to me, that's, I hate when people just throw the word accountability. Like, we have to give feedback so that we can be accountable. Yeah. So who can be accountable to what for what? Yeah. Like, what are we trying to be accountable to? And there is no accountability without feedback. But there's also no accountability without support, without progress. Exactly.

[00:18:10] Accountability is not you suck. I actually. I'm holding you accountable. I would, I would invert that. I think there is no support in the workplace without accountability. True that. That it is. It's actually kind of the, the linchpin that holds it all together. You know, the, the outline for this particular quarter, providing support, being the leadership

[00:18:34] essential, is that the skills necessary for support are clarity, accountability, and feedback. That you have to start by being clear about purpose, relationships, and communication. Mm-hmm. Then that gives you the platform to genuinely create accountability because you start with a clear expectation. Right.

[00:18:58] You start with a clear knowing of how we do the work together, and there's constant communication with specifics and appropriate directness, always seasoned with kindness, that makes that possible. And then the culmination of that support happens in the moment of feedback. Right. Or the process of feedback, the dialogue, the conversation. Yep.

[00:19:26] And this is where I, I will, mini tangent, I promise it won't be long, but this is why it's so problematic when people who are really good at their jobs automatically become managers and are still expected to do a full plate of IC work. Yep. Because the stuff you're describing is not necessarily, you know, some insurmountable amount of work and it's so hard and who could possibly do it.

[00:19:54] But it requires, A, a different set of skills than most people have in their individual contributor roles. And B, enough time and brain space to be thinking about your people in this way. Yeah. And that's part of the, having this kind of continuous feedback mindset where you are pouring yourself into developing the people you work with. And it's hard to context switch between that and, you know, attending a thousand meetings

[00:20:23] and doing, doing your day job. Right. This is one of the problems we have in the modern workplace is that management has become, here's your work. Also, you're managing people. Right. So, so there's like a distinct skill set and job that has its own development path and its own career ladder and its own set of responsibilities. That's exactly it. It's the, the way the job is scoped.

[00:20:51] It's, we make it, the manager job is first all these tasks. Mm-hmm. And then the leadership of people in those spaces is treated as almost like your other duties as assigned. Right. So it does feel, it becomes extra work for those folks when that is actually the work.

[00:21:13] If you manage clear expectations, observation, feedback, follow through, that is management. The other stuff is, it fills in the time between that constant communication and interchange with your people. Right. That's right. Yeah. You were, you were talking about help before and it reminded me, you know, when I was doing

[00:21:38] very frequent leadership training, feedback, accountability, those were sort of the bread and butter of a lot of the coursework that I developed and led. And what I wanted leaders to come away with was the understanding that what we're talking about here is particularly feedback because people shy away from it. It's actually an act of compassion. Mm-hmm.

[00:22:04] And the story I would share with them is that many years ago, I got a call from one of my partners in HR. I pick up the phone and this person says, hey, Kate, are you open to feedback? Which is just the worst, the worst thing ever. What a way to start a conversation. Right? It's like, oh. Hi. And I'm like, oh. Because they don't ask you that if they're about to tell you something good. No, no. And it's also like, I can't say no because I teach this stuff, right?

[00:22:33] I have to say yes. I'm like, yes, of course. She's like, well, can you meet me in this huddle room? So we sit down and she's like, you know, you and I were in a meeting several weeks ago. Weeks. I was facilitating a talent review conversation with a VP in the organization and some directors. I was a manager at the time. So these are all people that are above me in the hierarchy. And this HR person was present.

[00:23:02] Well, apparently, apparently when I would gesture, because I was standing up to facilitate, the dress I had on hiked up just enough that apparently my opaque tights were not that opaque. Oh. Yeah. I was flashing a VP. And she waited weeks to give me this feedback. Weeks later.

[00:23:25] So the takeaway for that is not only like how unfortunate I was wearing my Wonder Woman underwear that day. It's also this is when we fail to give feedback, we are leaving people exposed. Quite literally. Quite literally. I hate I hate that that happened. I mean, that's like shame. Nightmare stuff. But you got such a good pun out of it.

[00:23:51] It's a perfect example of this is what when we talk about the importance of feedback, it's it is a way to protect people from exposure. It's a way to tell people, I'm not going to let your vulnerable parts be seen by others, whether that's lack of understanding, lack of skill that we're not going to cover it up. But I'm going to show it to you. I'm going to tell you the story. And then we work on it together.

[00:24:20] And that builds trust. I will be very blunt and honest. I did not trust this person who should be my partner going forward. So if I had any HR issues, she was not the person I was calling. Right. I mean, the fact that she waited so long to bring you this feedback. Right. I'm trying. Of course, in my head, I'm like trying to play out like how she could have subtly given you a signal during the meeting or. Oh, yeah.

[00:24:50] You know. Well, here's the thing. Unfortunately, I had another wardrobe malfunction in a different meeting not long after this. Because apparently I needed all new clothes for something or something. But one of my colleagues, one of my peers in that case paused. It was like, hey, Kate, can we can we step out for a second? In the moment. It was awkward in the moment. It was definitely embarrassing. And it was it was kind. It was timely. This is such a good case study. Right.

[00:25:20] It didn't spare me the embarrassment, but it made certain I was safe despite it. And having had those two examples that make me sound like an incompetent moron. But because they're so visceral, it's yeah, you can address even the really sensitive stuff. Quickly, lightly and kindly. Absolutely.

[00:25:45] When I think about whom did I trust as a result of that feedback? Which of those colleagues did I feel most supported by? You know the answer. Well, yeah, of course. Yeah. I mean, it's a very easy extrapolation from that to any kind of feedback. Mm hmm. Right.

[00:26:09] And like the fact that it was presented by one person as I gave you some feedback as if it's something you were doing versus, you know, an accidental wardrobe malfunction or whatever. Yeah. That is there's a way because like if this was something that was like, you know, in every meeting that you're in, this happens in a specific way.

[00:26:34] Then it's like maybe this is that feels more like feedback to me than like what the other person did. Just like, hey, FYI, like you probably don't know this is happening. But here you can help you fix it right now in the moment. There's different. We go into this in the book. But there's different feedback for different circumstances, different feedback for different environments and different issues that you need to get feedback on. Different topics, I should say.

[00:27:04] And this is a very good side by side case study for appropriate and appropriate delivery of feedback. I got feedback from someone this was years and years and years ago. I had a manager for whom I was printing boarding passes twice a week, every week because they traveled a lot. I was the assistant. And one time over the course of the quarter, I printed to the wrong printer. It was a printer that was not closest to their desk.

[00:27:33] It was a different printer in the building. They were like, hey, where's my thing? I thought you were printing it. I did. I printed to the correct printer. That's the whole story. Six months later, it showed up in my performance review. What? That sometimes you print to the wrong printer and you don't have my materials prepared. I'm like, wait, like that one time that I fixed it right away.

[00:28:04] Giving me feedback, like giving someone feedback in the moment was actually helpful there. But then you don't also have to be holding on to this for six months, this little nugget of the one mistake I made. Yeah. I think there's an appropriate way of delivering feedback. Well, it's also so some of the questions I would ask, like if a if a manager brought that performance review to me to review. I would be like, so it's the sometimes you do this.

[00:28:34] Well, how many times? Right. It was just once. It was like six months ago. Okay. How significant of an issue is that? Okay. Okay. It was addressed. Has it happened again? No. All right. So why do you feel the need to say that there's essentially like a lack of effectiveness?

[00:28:53] And if it's something that's deeper than this one-off occasion, then you need to really address the pattern there rather than this one time I was kind of mildly inconvenienced. So I put a note in the file and now it's going to show up on a performance. And that's coming back to our initial points around story and helpfulness.

[00:29:17] How is what you are delivering in this feedback going to enable the recipient to recognize the behavior and do something about it? And if it's not in service of the story, why is it there? Yeah. And that's a good question of like, okay, if we're acknowledging that this is not actually in service of the story we're trying to tell, why are we telling it?

[00:29:41] Because we feel like we have to put something in because there's external pressure to give someone something to improve upon. Like what is the reason? And I think that's something I go over with managers when I'm coaching them on delivering feedback is we'll look at both sides. Like overall, what is your impression of this person? How do you want them to feel you look at them? How do you like, how great are they?

[00:30:10] And how great do you want them to think they are? Like, how do you view them? And how would you like them to perceive your perception? Yes. Right. And then, okay, what are we telling them that's in service of this? And what do we need to tell them that might not be in service of that? And so like, sometimes, you know, I want them to know that they're a great performer. I want them to think that I support them. I want them to, you know, believe that I think they can succeed here.

[00:30:38] But I do need to address these specific issues that I'm noticing. And then we get to have that conversation. We can still give them those pieces of constructive feedback. But because you want them to believe that you support them, those constructive feedbacks have to come along with, and here's how I'm going to support you. Right. Whether that's... In making these improvements. Let's outline the next steps. Let's set a follow-up date.

[00:31:08] The support can take many forms, so we don't need to be prescriptive about that. But it has to be clear. I do want to back us away from an assumption I could kind of imagine some people making. When we talk about, you know, giving that constructive feedback and providing support, it could sound like we are advocating for what is commonly known as the compliment sandwich.

[00:31:37] No. And because, right, you know, what we're not saying is tell someone they're great, criticize them, tell them... Tell someone they're great again. Tell someone they're great. No. That is never effective. Tell someone they're great, criticize them, and then tell them how you're going to help them with that criticism. Or, depending on the severity of the issue, the relationship, all the necessary circumstances, respectfully get right to the point. Yeah.

[00:32:06] Because there is that, like, let me be not cold or unfeeling, but let me be respectful of you by not... Yeah. ...making you feel like I'm blowing smoke, right? Well, and, you know, if there is a but coming, people can feel it, right? So if you start out with that tone of voice that's like, you're really great, you're doing all the things that I want. Like, they know that there's a but.

[00:32:34] So it's like you don't want to fail to acknowledge the things that people are doing well because people need to know that they're being seen. Yeah. For their successes. But you can't shy... It's not giving them a gift. It's not opening up a supportive conversation. If all you're doing is, like, this is not the right...

[00:33:02] I was going to say, like, smooching up the... Oh, yeah. Smooching up the bad stuff. That is not a phrase that anyone should ever use. Right? Well, you don't try to dress up. Like, it's... You can't make a silk purse. Don't put lipstick on a pig. That's it. That's it. I think the evidence of capability can be used as part of the story. That is where the acknowledgement, the I see that you're capable of it. Mm-hmm.

[00:33:29] I know that maybe you haven't done it perfectly in the past every single time, but I can see the level of effort you're putting in. I know that there have been issues that you've resolved. You're bringing in these story elements that are always true to be clear about what needs to change in the case where we're talking about feedback for improvement.

[00:33:56] You know, feedback is hard if you're not used to it. Mm-hmm. I have certainly had challenges giving and receiving feedback. Still do sometimes. Ask my husband. I love getting feedback. It's... I think the best we can do is try to keep in mind that this is...

[00:34:24] Regardless of who's starting the conversation, it is meant to be a conversation. It is meant to be supportive and not accusatory and not full of, you know, blame and putting someone down or scaring them.

[00:34:45] And I think where I'm going with this for my own personal self-reflection and what I hope feedback receivers can reflect on is whatever previous workplace experiences you have had that make you feel a certain way about feedback.

[00:35:05] How can you realize what those are, recognize what those are, and, like, detach those from your self-worth and detach those from how you show up today? I mean, this story about the printers is 20 years ago. And I still think about it. Mm-hmm. Not, like, all the time. But it still comes up to me when I'm doing feedback, when I'm giving people feedback, when I'm doing performance reviews. I think about recency bias.

[00:35:33] I think about relevance to feedback. Because just because something was annoying to you doesn't mean it's the most applicable bit of feedback to give someone. Like, the thing of, you know, not all thoughts are outside thoughts. Some of them can stay inside your head. And so I think about that a lot when I... And I think about it in relation to, like, previous workplace trauma.

[00:36:02] People with all different levels of privilege and all different levels of workplace trauma are going to be in your company. And they're going to be receiving and giving feedback. And so as an organization, if you can come up with some standards around, here's how we think about feedback here. Mm-hmm. We want everyone to be giving and receiving feedback with this mindset in mind.

[00:36:29] Then you're not as likely, I guess, to fall into old habits or other people's narratives around feedback. But even as an individual, if your organization... If you're not responsible for the organization or your organization sucks and you're an individual person listening to this, like, think about the story you're telling yourself about feedback. Mm-hmm. And how you give it, how you receive it.

[00:36:58] And just think about if any of these ideas resonate. You know, I'm curious to hear, send me a DM on LinkedIn. Let me know what you think. Mm-hmm. Because I think we can all do ourselves better. We can do better by ourselves in thinking about what's preventing me from giving feedback or what's preventing me from asking for feedback.

[00:37:24] When I give someone feedback, am I offering to support them or am I just delivering a plop on their porch? Yes. I think you're raising a really important point that has to be a consideration for leaders that when they have the need to provide critical feedback, and this should never stop you if somebody isn't meeting expectations from delivering the feedback,

[00:37:52] but asking yourself, how can I do this in a way that it's not going to be etched on the person? Mm-hmm. Because we are far more likely to remember that negative feedback over time... For sure. ...than any positive.

[00:38:19] And I think when you step into a moment of feedback, you have to remember, I will not... I will not turn away from it. And I want to be remembered as someone who helped them. You have this opportunity to create a memory with the person. Yeah. And is it, I supported them? We moved toward our goal with each other? Mm-hmm. Or I harmed them?

[00:38:46] I think where I'd like to wrap up is reflecting on one of the questions that this month's Other Voices contributors. This lets us be a little practical without getting into feedback mechanics. And it's this idea of what solutions, like practices or mindsets, do you recommend for people to help them be bolder to give feedback? I think wherever you can reduce the emotional component and depersonalize the...

[00:39:16] Depersonalize, I don't mean don't make it about the person. It has to be about the person. But like don't make it about their character. Mm-hmm. Don't make it a... Be wary of things like always, never. Yes. No interpretation. No interpretation. Yeah. Has to be facts.

[00:39:33] Like, right, and connect those facts to, again, to the story of how they belong in the organization, where they fit in in the organization, what their career trajectory looks like, what they're trying to work towards, the impact their behavior has on others, positive or negative. Yeah, using as little kind of editorializing and projection as possible.

[00:40:03] Yeah, the number of times I've gone through and edited people's feedback because they were going to deliver it. I was like, you always show up late to meetings. Like, do they always show up late to meetings? Or like, do they occasionally show up late to meetings? The feedback isn't you always show up late to meetings. The feedback is, you know, you have a tendency to show up late to meetings. There is a pattern. And here's how that impacts the team, right? Yeah. There's a pattern of late arrival and here's how it impacts the meeting.

[00:40:32] And what can we do to help you get to meetings on time? Mm-hmm. Like, that's much better feedback than you're always late to meetings, point taken off your record. I really like this as kind of the final note because it balances in the right way this idea of storytelling that's threaded through our conversation.

[00:41:01] Because the type of story you're telling is a fact-based story of reality. Of what actually resulted, what was observed, measured, known. And then opening that up to the other person to provide missing details. It is not fictionalization. It is not editorializing.

[00:41:27] It doesn't tell you I've characterized you as late person forever. That is the only identifying feature. Yep. Yeah. But when you are tardy to meetings, it has this impact on the team. There has been a pattern of this. How can we solve it together? Exactly. Yeah. And that, like, as a manager, is less scary feedback to give to someone. And as the recipient, that's less scary feedback to receive, right? Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[00:41:57] I know I've talked about this before, whether on the podcast or in newsletters. You know, when you say, oh, you always do this to someone, they're immediately mounting a defense to it. Right. Or you never. Like, nobody never always. But if you say, you say, Kate, you know, you've been tardy to at least six of the last ten meetings that we've attended with each other.

[00:42:28] That's numeric. So if you're bringing those measurements with you into the feedback, you're making it possible then to have the person continue to be engaged with you. And the here's why this matters. Yes. Here's why it matters that you're on time. Yep. And I have had this conversation with executive teams many times over because I've had lots of executive teams who take this meeting start and end times with zero seriousness.

[00:42:59] And I've heard feedback from people who say, like, it doesn't matter if I'm late because we never start on time anyway. Like, well, why do we never start on time? I know, right? Well, we don't start on time because everyone's last meeting doesn't end on time. And so we never can't always get here. Okay. Well, it sounds like we might have a problem with our meeting culture. Right. This is not a you and you and you are always late. This is the meeting that's scheduled right before this one always runs over. So we have some options here, right? We can be better, have better meeting hygiene and end up meeting on time.

[00:43:29] We can start this meeting five minutes later to give you some passing period time. We can, you know, there's lots of things we can do, but this habit of, well, it doesn't matter if I'm late because we never start on time because everybody knows that that meeting runs over. So it's like, yeah, but what about the people who are here on time? And they're sitting here for five, 10, 15 minutes waiting for the meeting to start because not everyone's here. How does that impact them and their feeling of value on the team?

[00:43:59] I finally got to a point when I was still in house where I would be really clear and say, I'm not going to punish you for showing up on time. All right, ma'am. I'm going to pull us back on track a little bit. Yes. Thank you. Yes. No, because you've highlighted some really important things, but I want to be speaking of starting on time, ending early. I'm paying attention to the clock right now. So I'm going to go ahead and do the outro bit before then.

[00:44:28] And thank you so much. It's really fun having you back on the podcast. Thank you. You're welcome. The latest companion toolkit is now available. Check the show notes for a link to request your copy. If this episode was useful, you can support the show by following or subscribing on your preferred podcast platform or by sharing it with someone who's navigating similar leadership challenges. We'll be back next Tuesday with a lesson for effectiveness.

[00:44:57] And later this season, we'll explore the role and importance of creativity. If you want updates on episodes, resources, and upcoming offerings from 123 Limited, including my collaboration with Kim, it's giving feedback, the ultimate guide to feedback. You can join the newsletter at any time. Thanks again for listening.