Workforce Agility: How Skills Shape the Future Cornerstone Connect Live

[00:00:00] Alright, I want to talk to you for a moment about retaining and developing your workforce.

[00:00:05] It's hard.

[00:00:06] Recruiting is hard.

[00:00:07] Retaining top employees is hard.

[00:00:09] Then you've got onboarding, payroll, benefits, time and labor management.

[00:00:13] You need to take care of your workforce and you can only do this successfully if you

[00:00:18] commit to transforming your employee experience.

[00:00:21] This is where ISoft comes in.

[00:00:24] They empower you to be successful.

[00:00:25] We've seen it with a number of companies that we've worked with and this is why we partner

[00:00:30] with them here at WorkDefined.

[00:00:32] We trust them and you should too.

[00:00:35] Check them out at isolvedhcm.com.

[00:00:38] Oh my goodness.

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[00:00:49] avoided.

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[00:01:11] Ladies and gentlemen, this is William Tinke and Ryan Leary.

[00:01:15] You're listening to the Use Case Podcast.

[00:01:17] We're broadcasting live from Cornerstone Connect in Orlando, Florida.

[00:01:21] We've got Anna on with us.

[00:01:24] Anna, would you do us a favor and introduce yourself?

[00:01:26] Sure.

[00:01:26] My name is Anna Goldberg.

[00:01:28] I'm a product strategy director at Cornerstone and I oversee our end-to-end galaxy vision,

[00:01:33] skills and mobile.

[00:01:35] Product strategy.

[00:01:38] What does that mean?

[00:01:40] What I read there, what I heard was I'm a Brooklyn fan.

[00:01:45] Not a Brooklyn fan, a NYX fan.

[00:01:48] Oh, a NYX fan.

[00:01:49] It's really important distinction.

[00:01:51] Very important.

[00:01:52] No, she still thinks of Brooklyn and New Jersey.

[00:01:56] They're a New Jersey team.

[00:01:57] They're a New Jersey team.

[00:01:58] Yeah, I don't understand why you guys have like 17 teams in one block.

[00:02:02] Because we have 9 million people.

[00:02:05] Yeah, yeah, they all have different interests.

[00:02:07] Have you connected or is it a connection between the Jets, Nets and...

[00:02:14] Is there a bit there?

[00:02:16] There is.

[00:02:17] Generally it's like Jets, Nets, Mets.

[00:02:19] Right.

[00:02:21] The Nets and the Nicks not so much but it's like the Jets and the Mets for sure.

[00:02:26] And then Yankees Giants go together.

[00:02:29] Right.

[00:02:30] My brother is the exception to the rule and he has a...

[00:02:34] Black sheep.

[00:02:34] Yeah, he's a Yankees Jets.

[00:02:36] It's a weird combo.

[00:02:38] You like winning and dominance and you like losing?

[00:02:42] Some self-loathing?

[00:02:43] It's unclear.

[00:02:44] We weren't a football family so he just chose the Jets on his own.

[00:02:47] It's really confusing to me of why that is.

[00:02:49] This is conversation at the dinner table.

[00:02:52] It's unclear.

[00:02:52] We have to decide this.

[00:02:53] No, no.

[00:02:55] Your fate is not decided yet.

[00:02:57] It's just incapable of making good decisions.

[00:02:59] So with the use case, we generally and obviously with Galaxy,

[00:03:02] we're going to talk a lot about Galaxy.

[00:03:04] Take us into...

[00:03:06] Because the naming of it and the conception of it is more recent but it goes back further than that.

[00:03:12] Tell us about Galaxy.

[00:03:14] So Cornerstone has always been a unified talent management solution from our birth.

[00:03:20] From starting out we started yes with the LMS but we quickly added performance with that idea

[00:03:25] that everything is connected and we were going to be the ones you would go to

[00:03:29] for learning and development, our talent development platform.

[00:03:32] That legacy continued when we purchased EdCast.

[00:03:36] And that sort of birthed what we would call the talent experience platform or TXP with that acronym.

[00:03:45] And Galaxy is the next sort of iteration of that.

[00:03:49] The talent experience platform was, I would say more of how we architecturally thought about connecting our products.

[00:03:57] And I have to cough so I'm sorry.

[00:03:59] You're fine.

[00:04:01] Whereas Galaxy is really moving to that symphony of experiences where our products seamlessly connect together.

[00:04:09] So I'd say it's an evolution from the initial birth of sort of talent management

[00:04:16] through to what is now Galaxy which is that really linking of learning and development

[00:04:20] and skilling as a golden thread throughout that leads to workforce outcomes

[00:04:24] that can power your workforce to make the decisions they need to make in the future.

[00:04:28] And how does it lead or how is it tied to workforce agility?

[00:04:33] Well, so skills is the golden thread throughout Galaxy.

[00:04:36] Got it.

[00:04:36] Right?

[00:04:37] And so the way organizations become agile to meet the needs of our changing landscape

[00:04:42] is through knowing what skills you need and how you develop.

[00:04:46] And a lot of folks put skilling, I would say with their ERP or HRS provider.

[00:04:52] Right.

[00:04:52] However that isolates skills to just be the source of data where with Galaxy we put skills at the center of learning and development

[00:05:00] and it's integrated into everything we do and so you can therefore update your skills data as you go.

[00:05:04] You can collect data on your people, their proficiency, what skills they have.

[00:05:07] And then you can use it to drive outcomes for your organization that will help you know how to respond to changing workforce conditions.

[00:05:15] Right.

[00:05:16] Do y'all talk much about skills decay?

[00:05:19] A little bit, yeah.

[00:05:21] And one of the interesting things is with our recent acquisition of SkyHive and the refresh in the market data that comes from that

[00:05:27] we now have the data and the ability to look at forward looking skills that SkyHive's able to pull from throughout the globe really

[00:05:36] in order to look at how the world is changing and refresh the taxonomy so that customers have what they need to make those workforce agility based decisions.

[00:05:45] So for those that are listening that may not understand the importance of that maybe talk a little bit about the acquisition of SkyHive,

[00:05:52] the refresh of that data and maybe go deeper into what they can look at going forward.

[00:05:59] I will try.

[00:06:02] So with the acquisition...

[00:06:04] Can you do that in 30 seconds?

[00:06:05] No.

[00:06:08] With the acquisition of SkyHive one of the things that we were able to do is SkyHive has an amazing amount of data from all over the globe.

[00:06:16] It's not just like job description data, it's patent data, it's this huge breadth of different sources of skills and it's I think terabytes of data for more...

[00:06:29] 15 and 9.

[00:06:30] Yeah so it's huge and it's a daily refresh.

[00:06:32] And so a cornerstone of the skills graph is our underlying taxonomy for all of our products and so now we are able to refresh the skills graph almost daily or we will be able to with all of that global market data.

[00:06:46] And so it informs decisions everywhere and every product?

[00:06:50] Everywhere right, yeah in every product because once it's in skills graph then it will...

[00:06:55] All of our customers will see the benefit right?

[00:06:57] So if you're learning performance in talent marketplace, learning experience, so learn and elevate particular...

[00:07:06] So in our new Galaxy wheel right there are three elements of the wheel.

[00:07:09] There's learn, elevate and transform.

[00:07:11] Right.

[00:07:12] And so within that with learn you have like the learning experience platform, learning management guide, extended enterprise, then contents fueling that forward

[00:07:21] and then in elevate you have talent marketplace and performance and recruiting and succession.

[00:07:25] And so skills infused into both of those lets you collect data on your people both from their perspective and the manager's perspective at the same time right?

[00:07:34] And then it feeds into transform that gives you the outcomes to really drive your organization and help you make good decisions and so it really is that wheel of...

[00:07:43] Okay so assess what I know what I have, develop what I need, use the product to close those gaps

[00:07:49] and then use transform to understand the outcomes that will drive for my business and then reset, know again where those gaps might be and start again.

[00:07:59] So onboarding a new customer, onboarding them to Galaxy in particular, what does that look like?

[00:08:07] So that's a good question.

[00:08:10] So when we onboarding a new customer we are still sort of working through the proposed implementation path.

[00:08:16] Every customer has a common set of problems right?

[00:08:19] But an uncommon way to solve them and they have their unique use cases that we need to cater to and that we try to cater to.

[00:08:26] We have like a best practice but each customer is going to be different.

[00:08:30] So sometimes if we take learn for example your LMS or your learning management system is your historical record for data.

[00:08:37] It's your source of truth for a lot of learning data.

[00:08:39] So onboarding them to Galaxy might be you go through a learning implementation first then you add on that experience next.

[00:08:46] As you roll out, roll live and guide will help you also do that user adoption as well to bring everyone to the table.

[00:08:54] How does a company know that Galaxy is where they need to be?

[00:08:59] It's a great question.

[00:09:00] So the full Galaxy wheel will not be right for every customer to start.

[00:09:04] Right.

[00:09:05] And it depends on where you are honestly in your skills journey.

[00:09:09] So for cornerstone 7000 customers, for a lot of our customers the first start is the learning management system

[00:09:15] like learning management system.

[00:09:17] Handle basic compliance regulatory use cases that you need an LMS for.

[00:09:21] When you're ready to start thinking about development, you might add performance to do those check-ins,

[00:09:27] development planning, tie it to learning performance reviews that are more conversational in nature

[00:09:31] and that will start to get you into the skills game through performance.

[00:09:36] Once you do that and you're thinking about the skills game,

[00:09:38] you're ready maturity wise for a learning experience platform to start drive learning and recommendations through skills.

[00:09:43] So it's really about where you are in the maturity model potentially of like if you have starting with the learning management system,

[00:09:53] for example, is a great entry way into the rest.

[00:09:57] But yeah, the gateway, but if you're more advanced and you're thinking about skilling and development,

[00:10:03] then you can go with more.

[00:10:05] Yeah.

[00:10:05] I'm one of these people that believes that people loves a competency framework and model,

[00:10:15] but no one really adheres to those models.

[00:10:19] So I'm fearful about skills in the same way.

[00:10:24] It's like it sounds great like, I don't know, a communist manifesto.

[00:10:29] If you read the communist manifesto, it is a wonderful work of art.

[00:10:35] When you add humans, it sucks.

[00:10:38] It gets complicated.

[00:10:38] It gets real complicated really quickly.

[00:10:41] That's a competency model to me.

[00:10:43] So what's interesting, I wish you could have come to our skill session earlier today.

[00:10:48] And we've done it around the world globally now.

[00:10:50] So we have some good data from about like the 350 people who've now attended and around the world.

[00:10:56] And we start out each session, we say how many of you have implemented skills?

[00:11:00] Do you guys want to guess what the number is?

[00:11:02] So like say each session is about 100 people, how many people do you think raise their hands?

[00:11:06] I'm going to say a third.

[00:11:07] I'm going to say two answers.

[00:11:10] One, either like 80% raise their hand and just don't know they didn't do it right.

[00:11:15] Or I'll go or less.

[00:11:18] Like three?

[00:11:20] Oh, well we got the three right.

[00:11:23] We just added the ERD.

[00:11:25] Wow, but they have, they don't, they have a...

[00:11:28] More people might have played with it.

[00:11:30] Right.

[00:11:31] Or like might have turned it on.

[00:11:32] They haven't implemented it.

[00:11:33] But they haven't implemented it.

[00:11:35] Now of the three that implemented it, have they been successful?

[00:11:38] So I don't know that answer because like it's just like a raise your hand, like let me know how it goes right?

[00:11:44] Wow.

[00:11:45] But one of the things that we talk through is there's barriers to entry from skills.

[00:11:48] And we've been trying to solve the skills problem.

[00:11:51] Like it's the hot thing in the market, everyone wants to do it.

[00:11:54] But really only the most enterprise customers are doing it well, if at all.

[00:11:59] Well it's got to be the center of everything you do.

[00:12:01] You've got to hire to it, you've got to promote to it.

[00:12:04] Yeah.

[00:12:05] And like everyone thinks you need a job architecture for it, which takes two years.

[00:12:09] Oh it is.

[00:12:10] And at least, and it's this huge complicated thing.

[00:12:13] And what we try and say to these customers in these groups,

[00:12:15] I'm getting to your competency answer, I promise, is that...

[00:12:20] She's political.

[00:12:21] Just totally deflected it.

[00:12:22] Absolutely.

[00:12:22] No, I'm going to get there.

[00:12:24] Is that there's barriers to entry, that it's not them, it's skills.

[00:12:28] Like as an industry we've totally like over complicated skills, made it harder for folks to implement.

[00:12:34] We made it this hot thing and then made it unattainable.

[00:12:37] And so we, and part of one of those reasons is competencies.

[00:12:41] Right.

[00:12:41] Because organizations have spent years.

[00:12:44] And a lot of money.

[00:12:45] And a lot of money with a lot of folks.

[00:12:47] Right.

[00:12:48] Consulting firms.

[00:12:48] I didn't say that you did.

[00:12:49] Yeah.

[00:12:52] Putting together competency frameworks.

[00:12:55] And the competencies apply to jobs, just like your job architecture would with skills.

[00:12:58] So one of the things that we are doing actually from at Cornerstone is we're making it easy

[00:13:03] for customers to migrate from competencies to skills.

[00:13:07] So we see, and we're not saying that your competencies is a skill.

[00:13:10] I want to be really clear.

[00:13:11] We have this great functionality called the capability model,

[00:13:15] which makes us super unique I think in the industry.

[00:13:17] And right now the capability models are only made of skills.

[00:13:21] But in the future, skills are just the what.

[00:13:24] They're not what makes you a whole employee.

[00:13:25] They're only a piece of it.

[00:13:27] And so in the future what we want to do is bring competencies into the capability models

[00:13:31] and help customers on that journey to becoming more skills based using the work they've already done.

[00:13:36] And that's hard and soft skills?

[00:13:38] Yes.

[00:13:39] Yeah.

[00:13:39] How do they make that transition?

[00:13:41] So we are adding competencies to the capability library as like a functionality

[00:13:46] and then we'll help them migrate.

[00:13:50] Yeah, migration tool.

[00:13:51] How do we know that we've done Galaxy well?

[00:13:56] That's a great question.

[00:13:59] Well, from the product perspective, you would have known you did it well

[00:14:03] by the number of customers who implemented and are using it.

[00:14:06] So it's usage, consumption?

[00:14:09] From the like brass tacks business piece of it.

[00:14:13] From the idea that Cornerstone was founded on the idea to educate the world

[00:14:19] and from that perspective, I think it's the idea.

[00:14:24] This is me personally.

[00:14:25] So I've been at Cornerstone for seven years.

[00:14:27] I'm a Kool-Aid drinker.

[00:14:29] I'm here because I believe in the mission.

[00:14:30] Totally understand.

[00:14:31] From a personal perspective it's that Galaxy

[00:14:34] enables folks to be agile within their organization.

[00:14:37] We have a customer who's a global, I don't know how to say,

[00:14:43] global shipping and postal service company.

[00:14:46] That's probably the wrong category, but that's fine.

[00:14:49] Whose ideas they want to see, their full Galaxy customer,

[00:14:53] they want to see 90% internal mobility.

[00:14:56] That's the metric they want to hit.

[00:14:58] Got to be skills.

[00:15:00] Got to have the skills?

[00:15:01] Have skills, but they're use case

[00:15:02] and I think this is how you know Galaxy is successful.

[00:15:04] When they think about, if they had a truck driver somewhere

[00:15:11] and the truck driver has skills in IT or tech

[00:15:14] but they're just doing a summer internship as a truck driver,

[00:15:17] they want to say you can have an internal mobility career with us.

[00:15:21] Here's what's next for you.

[00:15:22] Here's what's next for you.

[00:15:24] And that's how we know Galaxy is successful.

[00:15:26] Is 90% attainable?

[00:15:28] They think so.

[00:15:31] They shouldn't hear me say that.

[00:15:33] No, a lot of it comes down to the board and the C-suite.

[00:15:37] They drive it.

[00:15:38] It's a change management thing, right?

[00:15:41] That's the company culture that they want to hit that metric

[00:15:44] and they want to do it right from a cost savings perspective.

[00:15:47] It's also in everybody's best interest.

[00:15:48] Because you know the company culture, you know how to work there,

[00:15:52] the onboarding time is less, so it reduces your cost to hire,

[00:15:55] reduces your ATS costs.

[00:15:58] And oh by the way, the company cares enough about you to invest in you

[00:16:01] so that you can do something to further your career,

[00:16:04] make more money, whatever all the other things are.

[00:16:07] 100%.

[00:16:08] Do you find that companies that are investing in Cornerstone,

[00:16:12] Galaxy, or just invest, let's say Cornerstone,

[00:16:17] do they tend to be more open to,

[00:16:22] or do they tend to be more ambitious with higher expectations

[00:16:26] like 90% and does the leadership actually

[00:16:31] push that down into the organization,

[00:16:33] or is that just someone in HR saying,

[00:16:36] well we're going to hit 90%, but they just don't really know how.

[00:16:39] So for this customer it's definitely a higher level goal.

[00:16:43] But I think it depends on each customer.

[00:16:45] We have 7,000 customers and each of them,

[00:16:48] as we talked about before with the maturity model,

[00:16:50] is in a different place in their journey.

[00:16:53] So at which point of that journey today,

[00:16:55] you say okay, these guys are going to be elite customer

[00:16:59] and they're going to get it right.

[00:17:00] Well also, I will answer your question,

[00:17:02] but part of it is also about size, right?

[00:17:05] Yeah.

[00:17:06] So complexity.

[00:17:07] And complexity.

[00:17:08] So enterprise customers who are larger,

[00:17:10] like our global Fortune 500,

[00:17:13] are generally more able to do,

[00:17:15] even though they're more complex and more complicated

[00:17:18] and more political,

[00:17:19] They can throw people at it.

[00:17:19] They can throw people at it.

[00:17:21] Whereas if you're a mid-market or SMB customer,

[00:17:24] you'll see so much more value if you do it,

[00:17:27] but it's harder to get off the ground.

[00:17:29] And so it's a number of things.

[00:17:32] It's organizational complexity.

[00:17:33] It's where they are when their workforce journey.

[00:17:35] However, when I was a CSM before I moved to product,

[00:17:38] I was a customer success manager first.

[00:17:40] And there are a lot of mid-market customers

[00:17:43] who are super agile because they have really innovative HR

[00:17:46] and executive leadership members who care about this.

[00:17:50] And so for those folks,

[00:17:51] Galaxy is a great fit for them.

[00:17:55] So last question.

[00:17:57] Last question.

[00:18:00] Where do you see this going next?

[00:18:03] I mean, it's a little soon.

[00:18:04] I get it.

[00:18:05] It's a little soon.

[00:18:06] A little soon.

[00:18:06] But where do you want to go?

[00:18:08] Three and a half hours old.

[00:18:09] Yeah, I hear you.

[00:18:09] You're good.

[00:18:10] What do you want to say?

[00:18:11] What do you want to say to Galaxy next?

[00:18:15] So I think...

[00:18:16] I know that you're thinking about like different

[00:18:19] like metaphor, like constellations,

[00:18:21] galaxies, that's all the stuff.

[00:18:23] You get into all the things.

[00:18:28] I think the next piece is how we can...

[00:18:33] It's probably the...

[00:18:35] So Gen A is part of Galaxy,

[00:18:37] but I think we can integrate it better.

[00:18:39] Right.

[00:18:40] And I think that's the next piece is

[00:18:42] we safely and through regulated way

[00:18:47] know so much about our customers

[00:18:48] that we can even make better recommendations

[00:18:51] to drive their careers forward.

[00:18:53] And I think like we are integrating Gen A

[00:18:56] into the product now,

[00:18:57] but the next sort of the level up of it

[00:18:59] is like how do we make a suggestion to you

[00:19:01] and you're not even going in?

[00:19:02] Because one of...

[00:19:04] As a former CSM and a former practitioner

[00:19:06] myself and a former customer,

[00:19:08] like one of the things I see all the time

[00:19:09] is we can...

[00:19:11] We sell product.

[00:19:12] We serve product for business problems,

[00:19:15] but when it gets to the customer,

[00:19:16] the biggest hurdle is change management.

[00:19:18] Oh, always.

[00:19:19] Right.

[00:19:20] And so like the idea of bringing this to light

[00:19:22] is really great,

[00:19:23] but now we want to get people to use it.

[00:19:25] And so Gen A,

[00:19:26] I can help bridge that gap

[00:19:27] to push people towards usage.

[00:19:30] How controversial of a statement would this be?

[00:19:34] That when someone wants to buy Galaxy,

[00:19:38] they need to add headcount.

[00:19:41] And the reason I'll ask you,

[00:19:43] I'll give you a moment to think about it.

[00:19:45] Years ago,

[00:19:46] in a different life,

[00:19:48] we would do a marketing technology implementation,

[00:19:52] Eloqua,

[00:19:54] company that's sold to...

[00:19:55] It was a fantastic marketing automation platform.

[00:20:01] You needed 10 people.

[00:20:03] You needed at least one.

[00:20:05] So people would buy the product

[00:20:07] and go,

[00:20:08] product is...

[00:20:09] I mean it really was a Cadillac.

[00:20:11] It could do anything.

[00:20:12] But if you didn't have a person,

[00:20:15] it would fail.

[00:20:17] Yeah, so...

[00:20:18] a hard disagree, I think.

[00:20:23] Controversial, I guess.

[00:20:24] Awesome.

[00:20:26] So...

[00:20:26] That's the Brooklyn in there.

[00:20:27] Before I said,

[00:20:29] I got to be honest,

[00:20:30] it's like it comes through

[00:20:31] and you just can't stop it.

[00:20:34] You take hard and I'll take some minutes.

[00:20:40] So the...

[00:20:41] I would say that we have different options

[00:20:42] for different people,

[00:20:43] again to meet them where they are.

[00:20:45] Right.

[00:20:46] So if you're a mid-market customer

[00:20:47] or SMB customer

[00:20:49] with not a ton of resources,

[00:20:50] we have a great new product

[00:20:51] called Learning Fundamentals

[00:20:52] that doesn't implementation in six weeks,

[00:20:55] which is the learning management system

[00:20:57] and learning experience platform combined.

[00:20:59] It's a piece of galaxy,

[00:21:00] but it's a great starter pack

[00:21:01] to get you going

[00:21:02] and then you can add things along the way.

[00:21:04] So that doesn't take an extra person

[00:21:06] in a six week implementation.

[00:21:09] That's simple.

[00:21:10] For the more complex use cases,

[00:21:12] those customers generally already have

[00:21:14] an HRIS and LND team

[00:21:15] who is implementing the software,

[00:21:18] a form of this software in some way.

[00:21:21] Probably not as a complex

[00:21:23] and good version that's on them,

[00:21:24] but when they switch...

[00:21:26] The reason I asked,

[00:21:28] I don't want to get you in trouble,

[00:21:30] but the reason I ask is

[00:21:31] if skills are the center of the business,

[00:21:35] don't we need a chief skills officer?

[00:21:39] So a lot of the enterprise customers

[00:21:41] were seeing that

[00:21:42] they're hiring organizational development folks

[00:21:44] to do that skills.

[00:21:45] They're bringing in a person.

[00:21:47] Like the PhDs in OD,

[00:21:52] or an organizational development specialist,

[00:21:56] to really be their chief of skills.

[00:21:59] That's one way to do it.

[00:22:01] The simpler thing is just to say

[00:22:03] you're boiling the ocean with skills.

[00:22:06] Don't be so complex

[00:22:07] and start smaller.

[00:22:08] Right?

[00:22:09] And just turn it on.

[00:22:12] Who made skills complex?

[00:22:14] I don't want to answer that.

[00:22:15] Probably we did.

[00:22:17] No, not like us.

[00:22:18] Like the industry as a whole.

[00:22:20] I don't want to answer that.

[00:22:21] No, no.

[00:22:22] That's the first time someone said that to me.

[00:22:24] I'm not going to answer that.

[00:22:26] Do you want a specific name?

[00:22:27] Because I can give you one.

[00:22:28] No.

[00:22:29] I'm going to answer it in a way

[00:22:30] that I would so people will hate me.

[00:22:33] Consulting firms.

[00:22:35] I can't say that.

[00:22:36] But I would say...

[00:22:36] I think we all made it complex.

[00:22:39] We all have a hand to play.

[00:22:41] The tech was confusing at first.

[00:22:42] All of our hands are bloody?

[00:22:44] Potentially, yeah.

[00:22:45] But I think we can get ourselves out of the woods

[00:22:47] to solve it.

[00:22:48] Right?

[00:22:48] Like we can say that just pick a business case.

[00:22:51] You don't need a skills architect or someone to solve.

[00:22:53] You just need like a...

[00:22:54] I see this problem in my organization.

[00:22:57] Skills might be a solution.

[00:22:59] Then you can use Galaxy actually as a tool to solve it.

[00:23:01] Because you turn skills on,

[00:23:02] you collect the skills that you have.

[00:23:04] You identify the ones that you need.

[00:23:07] And then you fill the gap.

[00:23:09] It makes it sound easy.

[00:23:11] I love that.

[00:23:12] Easy enough?

[00:23:12] It is easy.

[00:23:13] It's much easier than we've made it sound.

[00:23:16] See, you're at fault too.

[00:23:18] Oh, I'm definitely at fault.

[00:23:19] Absolutely at fault.

[00:23:21] My hands are bloody all the way up to my elbows.

[00:23:24] Thank you so much for coming on the show.

[00:23:26] Thank you for having me.

[00:23:27] This has been great.