VimCal: Recruiters and EA's NEED to check this out. Complex scheduling that Calendly (and others can't handle)

[00:00:00] The Use Case Podcast, WRKdefined

[00:00:30] Did you, so I want you to continue down this path. But when you're searching and your results or your answers are coming up in threads that are six, seven years old, does something in your mind tell you, maybe we're old?

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[00:01:55] Hello, this is Wavetinger listening and watching the Use Case Podcast. We have John Leon today. So John, would you do us a favor and introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about your software?

[00:02:08] Thanks for having me guys. I am the co-founder and CEO of VimCal. VimCal is the world's fastest calendar designed for extremely busy people and their teams. So I like to say that VimCal is kind of like your calendar on steroids. We have a lot of heavy scheduling features, time zone conversion features, basically built for people whose calendars look like a giant block from morning to night.

[00:02:36] And yeah, about a year ago, we launched a second product called VimCal EA, which is a calendar for EAs as the name suggests. And we're really going after again, the most complex scheduling cases, people with the most meetings and for us that EA was the natural customer to go after because they have the most complex scheduling cases.

[00:02:59] So we've been live for four years, going strong. And I'm excited for what's ahead.

[00:03:05] What got you to solve this problem? Or where do we start?

[00:03:09] Absolutely. We did not start as VimCal or as a calendar company. We actually started first as an augmented reality company, pivoted to a fitness company. And then in year three, we became VimCal. And VimCal really started when we were working on our second startup, which is in the fitness space. And I was fundraising for that company. And I remember this was at the end of YC, so demo day, right?

[00:03:37] Right, right.

[00:03:38] Investor mania, you're scheduling. I think I had calls nine to five for three months straight. Yeah, without a break. And when you're scheduling so many meetings and at the peak it was 30 investor meetings to be scheduled, that once my inbox. I just remember messing up the scheduling like crazy.

[00:04:01] You really have two choices as a founder when you're scheduling investor meetings, you either send times out manually, do the time zone conversions in your head using Google, whatever. Or you use a booking link like a Calendly or Mixmax.

[00:04:16] Right?

[00:04:17] Now, when you're asking someone for hundreds of thousands of dollars, you want to avoid any chance of potentially insulting them or, you know, making them unhappy. And sometimes there's this weird power dynamic with sending a booking link.

[00:04:31] Yeah,

[00:04:32] telling the person to, you know,

[00:04:35] you do this.

[00:04:35] Come to my calendar.

[00:04:37] Yeah,

[00:04:38] I used to struggle with that. And for the longest time, I just remember sitting there crafting that final sentence. Here's my, you can send me some time, or if it's easier, here's my link. And I still struggle with that a little bit.

[00:04:56] I had the same struggle, but I would phrase it, send me your calendar widget, or here's mine.

[00:05:03] You do not struggle with that.

[00:05:05] No, no.

[00:05:06] You do not struggle with that.

[00:05:08] I've, no. Your emails say, schedule time on my calendar.

[00:05:14] Yeah, well, I got over it quickly.

[00:05:19] Let's just set the expectations here.

[00:05:22] Sure. It lasts for a couple hours. But anyhow, I do remember putting in there, send me your calendar widget, because it was the power dynamic, which John's talking about.

[00:05:31] It's like, I remember thinking how they're going to receive this.

[00:05:35] And like, okay. And then I thought you're right. Right. I quickly got over it. But John, I totally, you're scratching an itch because we've all had this problem.

[00:05:45] So yeah, good.

[00:05:47] You really have to massage the message if you're going to send a link.

[00:05:50] Sorry.

[00:05:51] Honestly, I like receiving the link because it gives me full control.

[00:05:55] Right.

[00:05:55] I took a time where I want it. The time's remaining.

[00:05:58] But yeah, you never know who's going to take it what way.

[00:06:02] So we built an entire company around just that one interaction.

[00:06:07] Right.

[00:06:07] And amazing. Yeah.

[00:06:08] But going back to when I was fundraising, I did not use a link.

[00:06:13] So I sent out times manually.

[00:06:16] Oh, nice.

[00:06:17] Kept messing up left and right.

[00:06:18] Double bookings, 4am calls with people in Asia.

[00:06:21] Just, you know, I didn't know what I was doing.

[00:06:24] Oh, yeah.

[00:06:24] And I remember at one point, I'm pretty sure I was I had a good conversation going.

[00:06:32] I thought maybe the chances are pretty high of getting one investment.

[00:06:37] And then I double booked, had to reschedule and never heard back.

[00:06:41] You know, investors are busy people, but like, you know, I messed up on the scheduling.

[00:06:45] So it no and their rationale is their rationale is pretty simple.

[00:06:50] I mean, outside of the arrogance, arrogance part, there's is if you can't manage a calendar,

[00:06:56] how can we trust you to manage a business?

[00:06:57] Right. That's a good point.

[00:06:59] That is a good point.

[00:07:01] John, during this time was the the conversations for Vim Cal in its current state or were we still in the other startups?

[00:07:09] The other startup, the Finna start.

[00:07:11] Yeah.

[00:07:11] Okay.

[00:07:12] Yeah.

[00:07:12] So this was like 10 months before Vim Cal ever existed.

[00:07:16] And we didn't think at the moment that, oh, we're going to make something out of this.

[00:07:19] It was just, oh, that sucked.

[00:07:21] You know, this is annoying, but it was just like in the back of our minds and didn't think twice about it.

[00:07:26] Well, that's some of the best ideas.

[00:07:27] That's where they come from is pain.

[00:07:29] Yeah.

[00:07:30] So you had to get pain because of some other things you had that pain.

[00:07:33] You're like, this is a real problem.

[00:07:34] If it's a real problem for me, it's gotta be a real problem for other people.

[00:07:38] Yep.

[00:07:39] Exactly.

[00:07:40] Spot on.

[00:07:40] So the first version of Vim Cal was a calendar built specifically for founders who are fundraising.

[00:07:47] And just our goal early on was pretty simple.

[00:07:50] We didn't pull, we just wanted everyone at YC demo day to be using Vim Cal on both sides, the investor side and the founder side.

[00:07:58] And they're just like pinging them counting back and forth with each other.

[00:08:01] And the way we saw that county handoff was in Vim Cal, you can drag times on your calendar.

[00:08:09] Uh, and as you drag those blocks, you want to give someone will actually type out the, are you free?

[00:08:14] You know, Monday, are you free Tuesday five to six, whatever.

[00:08:17] Right.

[00:08:17] Um, and then we will throw in a booking link, uh, either hyperlink it or say, or if it's easier book here, kind of the massaging that you guys are talking about.

[00:08:26] Um, and that way you get the best of both worlds.

[00:08:29] You get that personal touch where you actually get the times written out, but you get all of the benefits of a book link where you don't have to actually write them out and you don't have to convert any time zones.

[00:08:39] We will convert the time zone for you.

[00:08:40] Right.

[00:08:41] So you can just drag copy paste.

[00:08:43] Everything's taken care of.

[00:08:45] So connecting to kind of the historic platforms of Gmail and Outlook, what's how hard is that for, for Ryan and I, this is actually kind of new, uh, easy, hard.

[00:08:58] Do the like, what's the, what's the bit with those two players?

[00:09:01] Yeah, it is a lot harder than you think.

[00:09:05] I would just say that the APIs are not.

[00:09:08] All I do is click a link.

[00:09:09] It might be hard for you.

[00:09:10] I click a link.

[00:09:12] Just what I always heard Outlook, like sometimes they still have some holdovers.

[00:09:17] They still do the desktop version of Outlook, not the cloud version.

[00:09:21] So, so that, that was hard to sync with.

[00:09:25] Not as much the cloud version.

[00:09:28] I mean, yes, there's still that, but tell us, uh, tell us all about it.

[00:09:31] Take us into that world.

[00:09:32] Absolutely.

[00:09:33] So we started out, I think for the first two or three years only supporting Google accounts.

[00:09:39] Um, when we started, we didn't know anything about calendars.

[00:09:43] We barely worked with any public APIs before.

[00:09:46] So it was just a year and a half of stabbing in the dark a lot of times, because you

[00:09:51] would find bugs left and right, and you would not find the solution in the

[00:09:58] documentation that would oftentimes be in some random forum, like halfway through

[00:10:03] the page, a response from six years ago.

[00:10:06] Right.

[00:10:07] Wow.

[00:10:07] Right.

[00:10:07] Right.

[00:10:08] But it worked.

[00:10:08] Yeah, but it works.

[00:10:10] Yeah.

[00:10:10] This is like you're looking, trolling Reddit or I'm trying to find something

[00:10:16] like, does that work?

[00:10:17] Yeah.

[00:10:18] 2011.

[00:10:20] Let's give it a shot.

[00:10:21] Let's try and, oh, bug goes away.

[00:10:24] Yeah, exactly.

[00:10:25] Did you, so I want you to continue down this path, but at that, when

[00:10:29] you're, when you're searching and your results or your answers are coming

[00:10:33] up in threads that are six, seven years old.

[00:10:36] Does something in your mind tell you, maybe we're old.

[00:10:40] Maybe we were building something that's old.

[00:10:42] Although I obviously not because this is a great product, but I'm just curious

[00:10:48] because a lot of things that I search come up like that.

[00:10:52] Yeah.

[00:10:53] Maybe I'm that far behind that.

[00:10:55] I don't need to worry about this.

[00:10:57] I think it's the way they, I think that the way that it's the way they

[00:11:00] index things, that some of those things that are more popular, they get,

[00:11:04] I'd be there much prior newer in my, my here's how I justify it.

[00:11:09] When I see stuff like that, that pops and I'm looking for something

[00:11:13] specific and it hits Reddit and it's 12 years ago.

[00:11:16] It was relevant.

[00:11:18] I think, well, there's something newer on that topic.

[00:11:21] It just didn't get as many responses.

[00:11:24] So the one that got the most responses, it index higher.

[00:11:28] That's how I mean, again, I could be completely wrong about all that,

[00:11:30] but that's how I've rationalized it.

[00:11:32] I guess we're giving John a complex.

[00:11:35] He came on to tell us about,

[00:11:37] I'm getting triggered right now, guys.

[00:11:40] We're like, dude, you're just, you're outdated.

[00:11:42] You're gone.

[00:11:43] It's all fine.

[00:11:46] Continue down your story.

[00:11:47] Sorry.

[00:11:48] Yeah.

[00:11:48] Trying to think back.

[00:11:49] I think if anything, it's, it's a mix of it being a vote of confidence

[00:11:55] because there is a solution at that point.

[00:11:59] You've tried everything.

[00:12:00] You're basically reverse engineering parts of the API.

[00:12:03] And so I think it makes building a scheduling or countering tool more defensible.

[00:12:11] I always tell like investors when I talk to them, just building a good

[00:12:14] calendar is a competitive mode.

[00:12:17] It's so hard.

[00:12:19] That's why you see a lot of counters being acquired because no one wants

[00:12:23] to build it out.

[00:12:23] It takes forever and you can hire a team of like 50 smart people to do it.

[00:12:28] It's, it's a very visual product.

[00:12:31] So it is a big part art and then, you know, a small part of science.

[00:12:35] Right.

[00:12:36] And I think another thought.

[00:12:39] I started with Google and then somebody at one point said, Hey, love

[00:12:45] Google, but we're an Outlook or a Microsoft shop or something like that.

[00:12:50] Right.

[00:12:51] And we eventually, we always wanted to support Outlook, but being in the

[00:12:56] startup ecosystem, being founded ourselves, everyone was on Google.

[00:13:00] Yeah.

[00:13:01] And then Microsoft's hooking up with their API was another year in beta

[00:13:06] basically just testing things out.

[00:13:10] Um, but we keep getting surprised by how large that market is.

[00:13:14] Yeah.

[00:13:15] Everybody on the enterprise.

[00:13:17] I mean, that's the thing is it's not, it's not like guys like us.

[00:13:21] We're using Gmail and Google, all the Google products and et cetera.

[00:13:24] They're using teams and, uh, and out.

[00:13:28] So we all joke about it, but I mean, you gotta be honest with yourself at some

[00:13:33] point and say they do own the market at that level, at that level.

[00:13:37] And that's why you see responses that are like six years old because that's

[00:13:41] how deep their moat is.

[00:13:44] Yeah.

[00:13:44] You'll, you'll find those answers probably 10 years from now.

[00:13:47] They're still going to be.

[00:13:49] Yeah, that's right.

[00:13:50] Has anyone asked you, uh, to solve the problem of one to many, meaning I'm

[00:13:57] trying to schedule a meeting with the most eight different board members.

[00:14:03] How do you, how do you go about that?

[00:14:05] There used to be a tool.

[00:14:06] I can't remember the name of it now and it doesn't really matter, but

[00:14:09] you would, everyone would go in and fill out their openings and then it

[00:14:13] would then price machine learning.

[00:14:16] It would then connect and say, okay, this is the time that all y'all say.

[00:14:19] And here's the meeting.

[00:14:20] Here's the conference link, blah, blah, blah.

[00:14:22] Has anyone asked you to solve that problem yet?

[00:14:24] Or, or, uh, is it, is it something that comes up?

[00:14:28] Great question.

[00:14:28] We have that exact feature.

[00:14:30] So if I look distracted, it's cause I'm signing up right now.

[00:14:38] That is fantastic.

[00:14:39] That that's a game changer for me.

[00:14:41] I mean, the, the one-to-one stuff is great clearly.

[00:14:45] And I like the way that y'all go about it, but the one to many,

[00:14:48] man, it is, it is, it is a, it's bone crushing soul crushing for a lot of

[00:14:54] people that are trying to get everyone on the same page.

[00:14:58] So I love it.

[00:14:59] Tell us a little bit about that.

[00:15:00] Absolutely.

[00:15:01] So our features called group vote.

[00:15:03] Yep.

[00:15:04] Exactly what it sounds like you pull a large group of people.

[00:15:07] It is often used for board meetings.

[00:15:09] Like you mentioned birthday parties off sites, um, all kinds of events

[00:15:14] where you don't know the specific time, but you know about three, four

[00:15:17] five, and you want people to vote on it.

[00:15:20] And I think the tool you're talking about in the past was called doodle.

[00:15:25] I believe they're still around, but I think they run ads on their links now.

[00:15:29] So fewer people are using them.

[00:15:31] Um, and it's pretty funny because we launched group vote before or, uh,

[00:15:37] our EA product, you know, there's just separate things and it had good usage,

[00:15:42] not great usage because it was very, um, I guess spotty how people would use it.

[00:15:49] But it is actually one of the most heavily used features by EAs because

[00:15:54] they're always, always trying to get groups of 10, 20 people together.

[00:15:59] Quarterly board meetings.

[00:16:00] Right.

[00:16:01] Well, John in our world, uh, yeah, that's exactly right.

[00:16:08] Panel interviews, hiring manager, trying to get the recruiter, trying

[00:16:11] to get all these different people now doing with these people, multiple

[00:16:15] different time zones, uh, uh, around the world, et cetera.

[00:16:19] It's almost impossible.

[00:16:21] Yeah.

[00:16:21] And so, uh, there's a great case in both HR and in recruiting for,

[00:16:27] and I think you'd touch on an interesting point, which is you

[00:16:31] talked about the one to many case.

[00:16:33] And that's something we think about a lot, which, which is the

[00:16:36] combinations and permutations of people scheduling with each other.

[00:16:41] Um, so you have your typical one to one and then as you know, the number of

[00:16:47] people on a meeting increases linearly.

[00:16:49] So you go one to two, one to three, one to four, one to five, two to

[00:16:54] three, two to four, two to five, right?

[00:16:56] And increases linearly the complexity of scheduling the right

[00:17:00] meeting increases exponentially.

[00:17:01] So the more the number of people increases, the more it makes sense for

[00:17:06] software to do the time picking rather than a human.

[00:17:12] We, yeah, we actually build features for all of these cases, the one to one.

[00:17:16] Is that a bot?

[00:17:18] I would assume it's a bot or some type of technology that's going through and

[00:17:22] finding the, uh, the one place where everyone agrees that that should be

[00:17:26] the time for the meeting.

[00:17:27] You could do it that way, but it's actually more simple than that just

[00:17:31] because people are voting.

[00:17:33] So you just see the most, the most popular times.

[00:17:36] Got it.

[00:17:36] And then you can add params around it.

[00:17:38] So just, you know, the most popular time might not be the

[00:17:41] best time because of X, Y, Z.

[00:17:43] Right.

[00:17:43] You might need these two people out of the 10 to be for sure

[00:17:48] voting on this time rather than, again, all these combinations.

[00:17:51] Um, and it doesn't matter in that eight or 10 people that you're going

[00:17:55] after if they're using Gmail or Outlook, it doesn't matter.

[00:17:58] Yeah.

[00:17:59] Doesn't matter.

[00:17:59] It pings them where they are.

[00:18:01] Is there any other, it's going to be a dumb question.

[00:18:05] Uh, is there any other calendars that matter?

[00:18:09] I mean outside of Gmail and Outlook.

[00:18:13] Can anybody think of one?

[00:18:14] I'm biased.

[00:18:14] I mean, there's.

[00:18:15] I'm biased.

[00:18:15] I would say, no, I would say if you have a lot of meetings, it's

[00:18:19] a no brainer to use Vim Cal.

[00:18:20] But again, you can't use like AOL or Yahoo calendar or either of those.

[00:18:29] But those are the two, those are the two ones, right?

[00:18:32] Yes.

[00:18:32] Those are the ones we do for ones that everything else is built on.

[00:18:36] There are some other self hosted options, but I would say those are more

[00:18:39] for people who just care a lot about security and privacy.

[00:18:43] Right.

[00:18:43] Um, so you see a lot of engineers using those because they

[00:18:46] don't want to share their data.

[00:18:47] But mass market is Google and Microsoft are the foundations.

[00:18:52] Right.

[00:18:53] So John, I got a question.

[00:18:54] This is more forward thinking than current conversation.

[00:19:00] Where do, where does calendar scheduling tools and solutions like them,

[00:19:05] like, um, Vim Cal go from here?

[00:19:09] Right.

[00:19:09] So you got the scheduling, we've got the group scheduling and all of that.

[00:19:13] Where's the innovation moving forward?

[00:19:15] Where, where do you end up?

[00:19:17] Absolutely.

[00:19:18] And I think to answer that it's important to break up kind of what are

[00:19:23] the different buckets right now on the market and what you'll see is you have

[00:19:28] I would call the general mass market calendars.

[00:19:32] So that's going to be your Google calendar, your outlet calendar.

[00:19:36] And a lot of the free or lower priced counters you'll see in the app store.

[00:19:43] Um, they are better for college students, for personal use, maybe for

[00:19:49] family use, and then there's a split between that and what's really good for

[00:19:55] work.

[00:19:56] Uh, and so then you start seeing the calendar, these, the Zooms, the Vim

[00:20:00] Cal where it's really built for people who schedule a lot of meetings

[00:20:04] and their use cases are different.

[00:20:05] Right.

[00:20:06] Um, and so I think when you talk about where the innovation is going

[00:20:10] to go, you have to see which book you're talking about.

[00:20:13] We see a lot of.

[00:20:15] All right.

[00:20:15] I want to talk to you for a moment about retaining and

[00:20:18] developing your workforce is hard.

[00:20:20] Recruiting is hard.

[00:20:21] Retaining top employees is hard.

[00:20:24] Then you've got onboarding payroll benefits, time and labor management.

[00:20:28] You need to take care of your workforce and you can only do this

[00:20:31] successfully if you commit to transforming your employee experience.

[00:20:36] This is where I saw off comes in.

[00:20:38] They empower you to be successful.

[00:20:40] We've seen it with a number of companies that we've worked with.

[00:20:44] And this is why we partner with them here at work defined.

[00:20:47] We trust them and you should too check them out at isolved hcm.com.

[00:20:53] I would say more.

[00:20:55] You can talk about AI or like scheduling on your behalf.

[00:20:57] I would say that actually is probably going to happen more in the personal

[00:21:01] scheduling, uh, on the lower end because you're dealing with fewer high-stake

[00:21:06] meetings where you deal with more high-stake meetings, like the work,

[00:21:10] the work environment, you actually don't want AI or, you know, too advanced

[00:21:16] or get too smart for people because people have a very low tolerance

[00:21:20] for mistakes in the calendar.

[00:21:22] If you think about your calendar, it is pristine.

[00:21:26] Every event is completely accurate.

[00:21:29] You don't have any typos on it.

[00:21:31] Right.

[00:21:31] And you want to put things there on the first time, uh, correctly on the

[00:21:34] first time because you're inviting people that you might not know well.

[00:21:37] Now, if you think about your email, your notes, like there's typos ever.

[00:21:40] There's a bunch of drafts and junk that you don't need.

[00:21:43] Right.

[00:21:43] My inbox is there.

[00:21:44] I do that on my work calendars too.

[00:21:46] Right.

[00:21:47] Exactly.

[00:21:48] I'm just going to be honest.

[00:21:50] I'll take the hit for the team.

[00:21:52] Yeah.

[00:21:52] Yeah.

[00:21:52] I, you know, it's, it's, it is there a crossover between per, obviously

[00:21:57] there's a use case here for recruiting William, like you said, right?

[00:22:00] Hiring, interviewing all of that.

[00:22:02] Is there a crossover here for me to manage three kids, sports, travel,

[00:22:09] all of, all of that stuff personally, whatever I'm doing and fitting

[00:22:13] that into a work calendar that I maybe not, maybe William doesn't see it,

[00:22:19] but I see it and it fits into my day.

[00:22:22] Absolutely.

[00:22:23] So the thing that is, I look at email and calendar as sister apps.

[00:22:28] You need both for everything in life.

[00:22:31] And when it comes to email, you want each context to be separate.

[00:22:36] You want your personal email in your personal inbox, you want your work

[00:22:39] email on your work inbox, but you don't want them to get muffled together.

[00:22:43] With calendar, it's different.

[00:22:45] Everyone has one set of 24 hours.

[00:22:47] They want to see all the priorities in one view.

[00:22:50] And that was actually one of the biggest learnings we took away when

[00:22:54] we launched Outlook was just how many people have a work calendar in Outlook,

[00:22:58] but a personal counter in Google or Gmail.

[00:23:02] And just to be able to see them side by side is one of the stickiest

[00:23:06] points of our app for Outlook users, which is funny.

[00:23:09] It's like, basically we're just showing your meetings, right?

[00:23:11] But you can't really do that in Outlook or Google calendar very well.

[00:23:15] There's usually a huge lag if you're trying to sync between the two.

[00:23:17] So there's a lot of different ways where we can make things

[00:23:20] easier between work and personal.

[00:23:22] One is just showing both in one place.

[00:23:25] The other is blocking your work calendar with your personal events

[00:23:30] and just keeping it anonymous.

[00:23:32] And these are all the things that you know, you can do in VimCal

[00:23:34] and some other apps.

[00:23:37] And then, or for example, when you send out a booking link to be able

[00:23:40] to protect both your work calendar and your personal calendar, even though

[00:23:44] people are booking on your work calendar, right?

[00:23:45] So there is a lot of intersection between the two.

[00:23:48] And I would say people probably 80% of time stick with their work calendar,

[00:23:56] at least in our context, VimCal users.

[00:23:59] But the personal calendar is kind of this like hidden thing they don't

[00:24:04] want their coworkers to see, but is absolutely important in determining

[00:24:09] what work meetings get scheduled.

[00:24:11] Right.

[00:24:12] Right, right, right, right.

[00:24:13] Has, have y'all thought about kind of the positioning near term or even

[00:24:20] even longer term as kind of a team's product?

[00:24:25] Because we talk about HR and we're talking about the use case

[00:24:28] inside of recruiting, but truthfully you can see any team, any corporate

[00:24:35] team that's just trying to figure out how to get everyone synced up

[00:24:40] together, struggling with this.

[00:24:43] You know, if they go, if you go all the way back there, like putting

[00:24:46] times in, you know, Tuesday at two, Tuesday at three, Tuesday at four,

[00:24:51] and emails go around around, you know, with 15 different people.

[00:24:55] This just seems to me to be an easy segue into efficiency for teams.

[00:25:02] You are spot on again.

[00:25:05] Our focus this year is on building out more team features.

[00:25:09] Yeah.

[00:25:10] For the first three years, Vim Cal was pretty much a single player experience.

[00:25:13] And last year we started pushing out a lot of multiplayer features and that

[00:25:18] has been a game changer for us and for our users we've traditionally gone

[00:25:24] after because we've gone after the really busy people, it tended to be

[00:25:28] the founders, the C-suite, the, you know, GPs.

[00:25:32] And then as we launched these team features, we just saw usage spread

[00:25:38] throughout the organization when your CEO is the first person using a

[00:25:42] calendar app and he or she is sharing times with the rest of the team.

[00:25:46] Other people are going to start joining, right?

[00:25:48] And again, you're not paying out of pocket because it's on their team plan.

[00:25:52] And so again, all those combinations I was talking about with one to one,

[00:25:56] one to three, three to two, those are all team features that we have

[00:26:00] built out and are building out.

[00:26:02] And that alongside the EA product are two big priorities this year.

[00:26:06] I love that.

[00:26:08] So in the use case of recruiting, talent acquisition, interviewing,

[00:26:13] things like that, is VimCal something you see as a standalone product

[00:26:19] and organization just brings a VimCal in, they use it within their

[00:26:23] recruiting function or is this something where they can get this through

[00:26:28] maybe their tracking system or applicant track and system where

[00:26:31] they're managing all of their candidates?

[00:26:34] Good question.

[00:26:35] Well, we've seen so far is that especially when it comes to recruiting,

[00:26:39] it's been pretty self-serve.

[00:26:41] So recruiting is an interesting use case because I would say recruiting

[00:26:45] and sales are very specific use cases where they're the type of users

[00:26:51] that would really like VimCal and other scheduling apps, but they

[00:26:55] also have a central hub that everything needs to tie into.

[00:27:00] At the moment, we don't do any specific integrations, but that's

[00:27:03] definitely something worth thinking about, right?

[00:27:04] So sales for sales, all the ATS is for recruiting.

[00:27:09] Right.

[00:27:11] So once you start building those hooks, then it could be into their workflow.

[00:27:15] If they don't need it in their workflow right now, they

[00:27:19] could just use the product.

[00:27:20] And it makes sense.

[00:27:22] You can still use it on top of the workflows because those

[00:27:25] hubs usually sync with your calendar and we have a two-way sync with your calendar.

[00:27:31] So anything that gets booked via your ATS or your HubSpot will also show up in VimCal and vice versa.

[00:27:38] Is there really, it's an interesting point, John.

[00:27:41] So we know other solutions tie in and do this.

[00:27:46] And William, maybe you'll definitely have a thought here.

[00:27:50] Is it important for the calendar solution to tie into an ATS?

[00:27:55] Does that matter?

[00:27:56] Yeah.

[00:27:57] Well, in the case of an ATS, yes.

[00:28:00] Cause it's a compliance.

[00:28:02] You want every one of those touches to be, you need to know those things in

[00:28:06] case you ever audited so that you can say, yes, here was the 10 candidates.

[00:28:12] We here's their candidate slots, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:28:16] So you really want everything once post application, right?

[00:28:20] So once they've applied, you want everything in your system of record,

[00:28:25] i.e. the ATS, I would argue the same thing is true of sales.

[00:28:30] That once you engage a prospect, you're going to want everything.

[00:28:34] Every touch point in Salesforce or in HubSpot or whatever, you're going

[00:28:38] to want to be able to see it just so you can track back and say, okay,

[00:28:42] here was the place where it did, where we went sideways or,

[00:28:45] or we were successful.

[00:28:47] Yeah.

[00:28:48] Now the good thing with the meetings that you book, either whether you're

[00:28:52] recruiting or for sales is that it is stored on your Microsoft or Google account.

[00:28:57] So that is the ultimate source of truth for both, you know, the recruiters,

[00:29:01] sales and the Pemcal users.

[00:29:03] Yeah.

[00:29:03] You're the conduit in to which these things happen.

[00:29:08] Yeah.

[00:29:09] And, and, uh, so as you, as you go about, uh, kind of getting more

[00:29:14] and more people to use it, how do you, uh, what's your go to market?

[00:29:18] Like, how do you, cause I've seen a couple of these through the years of

[00:29:21] kids, you know, come to market and it seems more viral.

[00:29:25] Hmm.

[00:29:27] There's a variety to what they do.

[00:29:29] And, um, I'm sure that was all kind of created.

[00:29:32] However, uh, what's your kind of, what's your take and how do you want to,

[00:29:36] how do you want to get more and more people to use the account?

[00:29:39] Yeah, it's, it's interesting because we have pretty much split our

[00:29:44] go-to market in two now.

[00:29:46] So we have our flagship product.

[00:29:48] That's bottoms up PLG.

[00:29:50] Um, we have three availability features, which are basically three

[00:29:55] types of booking links.

[00:29:56] So the dragon copy that I told you about, we have personal links, which

[00:30:00] you can think of as our version of Calendly and then we have the group

[00:30:03] vote, which is our version of Doodle and our users are sending those out

[00:30:09] all the time when they need to book meetings, so they're, um,

[00:30:13] basically advertising Vim Cal on our behalf.

[00:30:15] Right.

[00:30:15] The Calendly Playbook.

[00:30:17] Um, but on the other end with our Vim Cal EA product, we are now

[00:30:23] building out a sales team.

[00:30:24] We're going up market, up market, whereas the other product is more

[00:30:27] in the early stage ecosystem, um, branching out, but still, you know,

[00:30:32] more, more dominant there and EA's tend to be at larger companies.

[00:30:38] So we are going to, you know, now fortune 500 companies getting through

[00:30:42] IT, doing pilots and doing the whole sales cycle.

[00:30:46] And it's interesting because our hypothesis hasn't changed.

[00:30:50] We're just to go for leadership, the decision makers.

[00:30:53] Right.

[00:30:53] Now we're going through a proxy, which is the EA.

[00:30:56] Um, the EA is someone who is underappreciated overworked, but also

[00:31:03] like someone that basically nothing gets done without them.

[00:31:06] They're the ones who actually run the companies.

[00:31:08] Right?

[00:31:08] So they are very, very powerful.

[00:31:10] And if they're really good and they're doing their job well,

[00:31:14] then the executive listens to them.

[00:31:16] I need this go get it.

[00:31:17] I always said, yeah.

[00:31:18] And they're, they're, they're sharp.

[00:31:20] They're, they're on call 24 seven.

[00:31:23] They're in charge of so many, so many high-stake things going on.

[00:31:26] Right.

[00:31:27] Um, it's, it's very impressive to look at them operate now that we're in this world.

[00:31:34] And so no one's ever built anything for them.

[00:31:36] They're doing a very tough job.

[00:31:38] 70% of their day is in the calendar, but they're scheduling

[00:31:41] on behalf of other people.

[00:31:43] Right.

[00:31:43] Which, which means none of the products on the market work for them

[00:31:46] because all the products are for personal scheduling for yourself.

[00:31:49] And that's why we built them Cal EA is to help with that delegated piece.

[00:31:53] And so it's been interesting because they actually welcome you with open arms.

[00:31:57] And because they're mostly told like what to do and no one asks for the

[00:32:02] opinion when you go to them, ask for feedback, you show them, Hey,

[00:32:05] we built this just for you.

[00:32:07] They will just like all our calls run over with them because

[00:32:09] they're so happy to talk to us.

[00:32:11] And it's awesome.

[00:32:12] And so yeah, our go-to-market in short is kind of two ways.

[00:32:17] Early stage is more PLG and then it's more sales going up market.

[00:32:22] But the hypothesis is the same, which is

[00:32:25] Is there any associations for EAs?

[00:32:28] Any national associations or international associations for EAs?

[00:32:31] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:32:32] It's a pretty robust community.

[00:32:34] There's annual conferences.

[00:32:36] There are different communities and groups.

[00:32:38] There's a lot of training for EAs.

[00:32:40] I would say it's pretty, pretty fragmented.

[00:32:42] EAs and admins in general tend to be kind of lone islands within a company.

[00:32:51] You're just by yourself supporting sometimes one, sometimes seven people.

[00:32:55] And yeah, it's a very lonely position.

[00:32:58] And a lot, a lot of times I outside of the company, you'll see

[00:33:01] communities come together and they talk a lot.

[00:33:04] Point one of your salespeople to Hollywood is the EAs in Hollywood.

[00:33:09] No, seriously.

[00:33:09] I'm serious.

[00:33:10] The EAs in Hollywood, they would love this and they don't have the same thing.

[00:33:18] I mean, we're talking about EAs for Fortune 500, you know, the C-suite,

[00:33:23] et cetera, and pretty much all of the C-suite has their own EA.

[00:33:27] But in Hollywood, producers, directors, everybody's got an EA.

[00:33:32] That's a very good point.

[00:33:34] Yeah, the complexity of scheduling meetings with other actors or the whole

[00:33:41] people that make TV show or the movie or whatever, like that's a legit complexity.

[00:33:47] I did have a question around budget or how do you finance everything?

[00:33:54] Is it sold through and in this case, the EA?

[00:33:57] And they buy or they get to have some type of budget to then afford this?

[00:34:03] Or do they basically, do you give them the armament so that

[00:34:08] they can then sell it internally?

[00:34:10] Good question.

[00:34:11] It depends on the size of the company and how strict security is at the company.

[00:34:16] For example, we see EAs at VC funds, which are smaller than

[00:34:22] a Coca-Cola or something, right?

[00:34:23] Right, right, right.

[00:34:24] They can probably just run it themselves or just have their partner approve it.

[00:34:28] Whereas if we go to a larger company, then we have to, after we

[00:34:34] basically get a champion within, we have to talk to IT, talk to the buying department.

[00:34:40] But I would say at our price point and versus how much time it saves for EAs.

[00:34:45] Right?

[00:34:45] This is vertical SaaS for EAs.

[00:34:48] You know, VimCal EA is $75 a month.

[00:34:51] We actually save EAs over an hour a day.

[00:34:54] I'm not saying that as marketing speak.

[00:34:56] Like, that was my next question is what are we saving timeframe?

[00:35:00] Yeah.

[00:35:00] Is that the actual pitch to the EA or is it, we're going to remove

[00:35:05] the stress of all the fucker that happens?

[00:35:08] Well, I think it's, yeah.

[00:35:10] I think I like, I like Lee with EAs and, and John offline.

[00:35:15] I'll need to connect you with somebody that, that, that's

[00:35:18] a professional EA group.

[00:35:20] So we'll, we'll do that.

[00:35:21] Um, but I, Ryan, I, I, the time thing.

[00:35:25] Yeah.

[00:35:26] They're going to kind of see that innately, but they're going to see

[00:35:28] the complexity that they deal with and kind of all the pain that comes with that.

[00:35:34] Yeah.

[00:35:34] You're trying to get eight board members or go back to that same thing.

[00:35:38] The EA that's responsible to get eight board members or eight advisors

[00:35:43] or whatever, you know, that's the, that's the, that's the, that's

[00:35:47] the, that's the, that's the, that's the, that's the, that's the, that's the

[00:35:52] time that they're working together.

[00:35:53] They're working together to get the advisors together, whatever.

[00:35:58] And the hours that

[00:36:01] yeah, yeah, if you could just put a link and say, here are the times.

[00:36:05] Yeah.

[00:36:05] Well, and I could imagine, you know, in some organizations, John,

[00:36:09] you're probably running into, I mean, there could be seven EAs supporting

[00:36:15] this.

[00:36:15] Okay.

[00:36:15] Here's how we're doing this.

[00:36:17] Yep.

[00:36:18] So now does that remove, I don't think this is a debate of eliminating people,

[00:36:24] but does that remove the need to have an EA in a traditional sense only

[00:36:30] focus on calendaring or can if they're, if in a corporate environment,

[00:36:34] for example, there are seven executives, seven EAs, they all manage calendars,

[00:36:39] but they all also do 97 other things.

[00:36:41] Yeah.

[00:36:42] Yeah.

[00:36:42] Can you now remove scheduling from all seven and say scheduling for one,

[00:36:46] and we're going to have an admin over Vim Cal.

[00:36:49] That's, I mean, that is exactly what we're seeing at least the admin

[00:36:54] and EA slash chief of staff.

[00:36:57] Right.

[00:36:57] Right.

[00:36:58] Yes.

[00:36:58] Um, group going towards, which is they're no longer just scheduling.

[00:37:04] Um, the reason they're called executive assistants is because

[00:37:07] they do so many things there.

[00:37:09] They're running the show.

[00:37:09] They're like mini COs.

[00:37:10] Yeah.

[00:37:11] 100%.

[00:37:11] Yeah.

[00:37:12] And what you see is one, they're getting more and more responsibilities

[00:37:17] outside of the traditional appointment, appointment scheduling.

[00:37:20] And two, one EA is now supporting more and more execs per per year.

[00:37:28] So we're seeing three, four or five execs being supported by one person

[00:37:33] being like more and more than norm, which is really tough because these

[00:37:38] are very busy people, high egos on call.

[00:37:41] Hey, do this, do this, do this.

[00:37:42] And you have like five people just pinging you all the time.

[00:37:45] Well, it kind of right.

[00:37:46] It's almost like a personal assistant versus EA and the EA I think has

[00:37:50] morphed on say hasn't morphed into a personal assistant, but it does

[00:37:56] help when that EA can become more personally attached to the executive

[00:38:00] and understand that executive.

[00:38:02] And that's I see those, uh, when someone says, uh, executive

[00:38:08] assistant, personal assistant for me, I'm not saying that that's the way it is.

[00:38:12] I'm just, I've always used those as synonyms, but they're

[00:38:15] actually the same people.

[00:38:18] I, I've always separated them personally because I look at it

[00:38:23] as a personal assistant as okay.

[00:38:25] I need my laundry or my dry cleaning picked up.

[00:38:28] I need this pick up.

[00:38:30] I'm traveling.

[00:38:30] I need you to get my suitcase pack stuff like that, as opposed to

[00:38:34] executive is business corporate in the, in the building.

[00:38:37] Interesting.

[00:38:38] There's a pretty fine separation.

[00:38:41] It, you know, there's a, there's definitely some overlap between

[00:38:44] personal and work, but you, you will see that most of the

[00:38:47] time it is in a corporate setting.

[00:38:49] Um, only the corporate email or like calendar is shared with the EA.

[00:38:56] And that tends to happen more when the EA supporting multiple people.

[00:39:00] Um, when you see a one-on-one relationship, especially if the,

[00:39:05] well, it depends on exec, but especially if, um, the exec and the

[00:39:09] EA have a long standing relationship.

[00:39:11] Like we've seen people with the same EA for 20 years, right?

[00:39:14] At that point, it might lead over more into the personal life and

[00:39:17] more of the personal assistant.

[00:39:18] And also depends on the industry.

[00:39:20] Um, again, corporate versus Hollywood is probably way more personal

[00:39:24] assistance where you're just doing everything for the producer.

[00:39:28] Yeah.

[00:39:28] That's, that's, that's where my head was, was in music and,

[00:39:31] and, uh, and the, and Hollywood more of the arts.

[00:39:34] And it's just, I, I think the assistant part, whether that's a

[00:39:38] personal or executive, it's like you're the assistant, you just do whatever.

[00:39:42] Um, what challenges or what, what things have you, you know, as

[00:39:47] you move into more and more of the fortune upstream, fortune 500,

[00:39:51] fortune 1000, et cetera, uh, security and privacy, like, uh, I'm sure

[00:39:57] once it gets ahold of this, they're, you know, they want to kind of test it, hack

[00:40:02] it, uh, all those types of things.

[00:40:04] So what have you, what have you seen there?

[00:40:06] Yeah.

[00:40:07] Um, it's been interesting because it really, it also depends on one, how

[00:40:14] old the company is and what sector to, to what sector it is in.

[00:40:18] Um, overall, it hasn't been a problem because we, we, you know,

[00:40:25] Stand by the most secure, uh, protocols.

[00:40:28] We have all our certifications of SOC two ISO GDPR compliance.

[00:40:33] Um, so it hasn't really been a problem.

[00:40:35] What we've seen is there are more hoops to go through, for example, with

[00:40:40] government agencies versus, you know, a big tech company and then a big part

[00:40:47] of it also depends on the culture of the company, some just flat out

[00:40:52] say no third party tools you have to use in-house tools.

[00:40:55] At that point, there's not much you can do about it.

[00:40:58] Uh, I would say most of the cases you, it's, it's pretty much standard IT.

[00:41:02] You know, you follow the rules, you have the certifications, you

[00:41:05] do the best practices and it shouldn't be a problem.

[00:41:09] I love this.

[00:41:10] So the rest of the year, what's, uh, you got to what?

[00:41:13] Seven months left, whatever.

[00:41:15] What's success for you by the end of the year?

[00:41:19] That's a great question.

[00:41:20] Um, our goal is to get to profitability by mid next year.

[00:41:26] Um, and then in the short term, again, this year we're focused on our team

[00:41:32] features and our, uh, product and the intersection of the two.

[00:41:36] So I think earlier you mentioned if there's a team of seven EAs at a

[00:41:40] company, you know, working together, they have a hub.

[00:41:43] We are building out multiplayer features for regular VIMCAL users and for EAs.

[00:41:47] Uh, one of these being the ability to hand off the settings and the

[00:41:53] environment for an executive between EAs.

[00:41:54] Cause a lot of times an EA will go on vacation or you'll see this

[00:41:58] EA swap in and out for an executive.

[00:42:00] And right now that is extremely painful.

[00:42:03] Uh, just a lot of calendar sharing, a lot of passing notes.

[00:42:07] Um, and so we're going to try to make it very easy to just like

[00:42:11] download all of the executives preferences into this new EA so they

[00:42:13] can just start, just start in 10 minutes.

[00:42:16] Do you see, cause when Ryan and I talk about AI in our space, we tend to

[00:42:21] talk about it and Hey, it's gobbling up the lower value task.

[00:42:26] It's you know, like it's this is it's, it's okay because we used to have

[00:42:31] and Ryan and I both remember this in the staffing world in particular, we

[00:42:36] would have people that their entire week, entire job was scheduling.

[00:42:41] They were called, they were called schedulers.

[00:42:44] So this was their, this was their job.

[00:42:47] There's candidate schedule, recruiter schedule, hiring manager schedule.

[00:42:50] They had to kind of go through it.

[00:42:52] And you remember those emails going back and forth, Tuesday,

[00:42:54] it to Tuesday for Tuesday.

[00:42:56] Is that East coast is a Pacific?

[00:42:58] I don't know whatever.

[00:42:59] So, you know, there's, there's been movement in our space for bots and

[00:43:05] other things to take over some of that lower value, uh, lower value

[00:43:09] tasks that happened in recruiting and HR to me, what I, what I said,

[00:43:13] what I see in VIMCO is scheduling is, is exceptionally valuable, but a

[00:43:20] person doing it as opposed to a technology enabling it is, is the difference.

[00:43:27] Um, so first of all, I wanted to just tell you a little bit about our

[00:43:30] industry and kind of how we see it playing out in recruiting and HR.

[00:43:34] The other is, is to, uh, I don't know, to just get your take on,

[00:43:40] um, AI being that, you know, like when we say we want a vote instead of a human

[00:43:47] picking the three or four spots, do you see a time in which AI says,

[00:43:52] based on what we know here are the four spots so that a human doesn't even

[00:43:57] have to go and say, okay, why don't we pick this time, this time, this

[00:44:00] time, this time, and I'll send it out to the people.

[00:44:04] Do you see AI or even, I guess this is what she learned.

[00:44:06] Do you see that as a, uh, taking that away from the human in a good way?

[00:44:12] Just, it just, it's enabling the human to do other things, making them

[00:44:15] more efficient at something else.

[00:44:17] So do you see that happening at VIMCO?

[00:44:21] Um, I think in general, that is a near impossible problem to solve.

[00:44:28] And before I get into the reason why, um, I'd like to ask you if you've

[00:44:33] ever used a booking link before, have you ever done a meeting booked at a time

[00:44:38] where you're like, Oh, I don't want to meeting at this time this week.

[00:44:41] Right.

[00:44:42] Right.

[00:44:43] Because of that, even the perfect AI won't know that won't know the

[00:44:49] perfect context because it's going off of your openings on your calendar.

[00:44:53] That's right.

[00:44:53] It relies on you to update it all the time when you have new information.

[00:44:58] Right?

[00:44:58] Maybe, you know, when you, when you said, well, when the AI is

[00:45:02] looking through your preferences, let's say you said Thursday two to five

[00:45:06] free every week, right?

[00:45:08] And next week, it just so happens.

[00:45:11] So happens that you have to go pick up your kids early, you know, but

[00:45:14] someone at 3 PM, the AI is correct technically, but you don't want that

[00:45:19] meeting and so you start trusting in less and this actually happens to

[00:45:23] most people like two, three times a week and they're just like, Oh, I

[00:45:26] had that three hour block.

[00:45:27] I wanted to do deep focus, but right in the middle, a meeting got

[00:45:31] and I have no one to blame.

[00:45:33] Right.

[00:45:34] Like these are the preferences I set.

[00:45:36] Yeah.

[00:45:36] Right.

[00:45:36] This is where you always tell me just put it on your calendar.

[00:45:41] I'm like, but I don't know.

[00:45:42] I want to just be in deep focus until I want to be in deep focus.

[00:45:47] And then that was a great, no, that's a great, that's a great

[00:45:51] example because again, AI can't know what's in your mind over time.

[00:45:56] It might be able to pull up some, maybe.

[00:45:58] Yeah.

[00:45:59] Yeah.

[00:46:00] Yeah.

[00:46:00] Yeah.

[00:46:02] I think the big one of not the, but one of the big sell points into

[00:46:08] the enterprise is your own example.

[00:46:10] Jample John from the very beginning, you potentially lost hundreds of thousands

[00:46:14] of dollars because you couldn't manage your calendar appropriately.

[00:46:19] Now scale that up to a fortune 100.

[00:46:22] Every, every salesperson has lost money.

[00:46:25] Every recruiters lost money.

[00:46:27] And EA screws up a calendar just because they've got 95 other things they're doing.

[00:46:34] That could be millions of dollars in bookings because the sales person

[00:46:38] missed a call or missed a proposal or missed just being, you know, somewhere.

[00:46:45] I think that's to me, that's the, that's the big pitch at enterprise, right?

[00:46:49] Obviously time and all that stuff.

[00:46:51] But I mean, just to security of knowing you're going to do where you need to be.

[00:46:56] Compounds.

[00:46:56] Absolutely.

[00:46:57] Because the way the pitch is, if you go in with just efficiency, people are always

[00:47:03] going to look at it and go, okay, that's cool.

[00:47:05] It saves me time.

[00:47:07] It saves costs.

[00:47:08] Great.

[00:47:10] But what does it make me money?

[00:47:11] And I think that's, I think John, I think that's one of the things

[00:47:14] is the opportunity costs of what you lost because that meeting wasn't

[00:47:18] scheduled or because you missed it, et cetera.

[00:47:21] I think there's something there where you can create a calculator that shows

[00:47:24] people how much money they lost by just inefficient counting.

[00:47:28] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:47:28] So.

[00:47:30] Well, one more question.

[00:47:32] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:47:33] I probably should have asked this way upfront because I know people that are

[00:47:37] listening to this specifically this episode because Vim Cal is just, it's

[00:47:41] in that sweet spot of a lot of people, pretty much everybody, even if

[00:47:45] they don't know it.

[00:47:47] Where does Vim Cal different from the other players?

[00:47:49] And I know you've answered this throughout the call, but let's just

[00:47:52] kind of get the clip nugget here.

[00:47:54] Where does Vim Cal differ from say, Cowlingly or some of the others

[00:47:58] that people are familiar with?

[00:48:02] Vim Cal lets you put guardrails on your calendar and lets you protect,

[00:48:08] protect your time.

[00:48:10] And for example, with our slots feature where you drag and copy

[00:48:14] as you're dragging times to give out to people, you're explicitly

[00:48:18] sending the availabilities.

[00:48:19] You're implicitly designing your week as you go.

[00:48:23] They're saying these times I want to go to these people.

[00:48:26] These other times I want to send to this other person.

[00:48:28] Right?

[00:48:29] And the times you don't drag, you're protecting for yourself.

[00:48:32] Right?

[00:48:32] So indirectly you are protecting your time that way for a hundred

[00:48:39] percent of meetings that get booked through Vim Cal, there are zero

[00:48:42] surprises.

[00:48:42] I think that is the main thing that people don't realize after

[00:48:45] using for awhile, like why they like it.

[00:48:47] They can't like put a finger on it.

[00:48:49] Right.

[00:48:49] But that is why, because we protect their time and we do that for

[00:48:53] people again, who nine to five back to back, just the counters of solid

[00:48:58] color.

[00:48:59] I would say that is a number one thing.

[00:49:01] And then there are the suite features like the keyboard

[00:49:04] shortcuts, the NLP, all the AI features we have, but it is really,

[00:49:07] really giving you control over your time.

[00:49:10] Yeah.

[00:49:10] And for me, I'd add to the solution for AEAs because a lot of

[00:49:16] the solutions that are out there aren't built for AEAs and the,

[00:49:20] the one to many.

[00:49:21] Right?

[00:49:21] I mean, I've been looking for a one to many solution for probably 10 years

[00:49:25] now, so because of advisory board calls and board calls, it's just hard

[00:49:31] to get eight people on the same page with all the different time zones

[00:49:35] and everybody being busy.

[00:49:36] So.