The Evolving Role of Background Screening: Beyond Pre-Employment Checks with Cisive

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[00:01:10] Hey, this is William Tincup and you are listening and hopefully watching the Use Case Podcast. Ryan, how are you doing today?

[00:01:17] I'm good. I thought you were going to skip over my intro again.

[00:01:20] No, I'm not going to because there might be some fishing stories that we get to later.

[00:01:25] Larry, he does this sometimes. He forgets that I exist. He's like my wife.

[00:01:31] It's not true. It's absolutely not true. Larry, obviously you're on the Use Case Podcast. We want to talk a lot about your technology. But before we do that, why don't you introduce yourself to us?

[00:01:41] Sure. I am Larry Neal. I'm the CEO of Sysiv, a role that I took on about a year and a half ago.

[00:01:48] And it's sort of nearing the end of my career more than the beginning.

[00:01:54] And it's been a very exciting opportunity to pull together many things I've done in my career.

[00:02:00] And I'm sure we'll talk more about that.

[00:02:03] But I come from outside the background screening space and even broadly the HR space.

[00:02:10] But bringing lots of experience in other areas, I'm always excited to work in a new business where I can use some of the cool things we did elsewhere and do them here.

[00:02:20] And I'm sure we'll dig into that. I'm sure.

[00:02:24] Yeah. You know, I think we, Larry, we see so many people, a lot of, I was joking about this in pre-show where I had said, if we describe something or talk about something and we attach innovation to the person, they generally come from outside of our space.

[00:02:42] And that's not knocking our space. It's just, you're in the space. You've been in it forever. It's hard to innovate something that you've been in for so long.

[00:02:52] Where did you come from? What was your background prior to getting in and what drove you to getting into this space?

[00:02:58] If we go all the way back, I was an engineer by schooling and I was a mechanical engineer.

[00:03:03] And my father was a nuclear engineer. So that felt like the path for life for me.

[00:03:08] But I did that for a couple of years, but loved the analytical side, but really wanted to be more in a business and sort of dynamic area.

[00:03:16] So I shifted into sales from engineering and gravitated then toward financial information, financial data.

[00:03:25] And I'd say right at that point, the career path that I went down was what I would call vertical applications and often workflow oriented tools for vertical applications that had a heavy data component to them.

[00:03:41] Either data as a critical part of that particular workflow or even more interestingly, data that was sort of a byproduct of that work, but was tremendously valuable to utilize, to understand all kinds of things and so forth.

[00:03:59] So that was, that was, that was really kind of what I locked into was these vertically focused businesses that were heavy workflow tech and data.

[00:04:09] So that's kind of, and I, I described half my career was sort of in sales leadership and, you know, commercial roles.

[00:04:16] And then half the last 20 years, but in just running different business, CEO, president, different business.

[00:04:23] So had a chance to see a lot of different, you know, different ones.

[00:04:27] I love that. I love that.

[00:04:29] Well, you're sitting on top of it, especially the company that you have now, you're sitting on top of a lot of data.

[00:04:35] Tell us a little bit more about CISOF.

[00:04:37] What's, what's going on with CISOF these days?

[00:04:39] Yeah, it probably connects to what drew me to CISOF.

[00:04:43] I think kind of first and foremost, you know, maybe not just even CISOF, but as an industry.

[00:04:48] Yeah, I looked at it as, you know, it's an incredibly important function that companies like CISOF provide.

[00:04:53] And there's a lot of value in doing it.

[00:04:56] And I'd say increasingly, you know, it's important to do it better and better, you know, probably for all the obvious reasons.

[00:05:03] Right.

[00:05:03] But what I did see was untapped opportunities in certain areas.

[00:05:08] Right.

[00:05:08] And the foundation of that to me was kind of re-envisioning the role of a background screener as it typically defined, you know, which is, you know, kind of heavily oriented toward the hiring process.

[00:05:23] Right.

[00:05:23] Pre-employment.

[00:05:24] Right.

[00:05:25] Pre-hire.

[00:05:26] But when you look at, you know, the broader sort of area we operate within the customer's organization and what they're doing, right, their needs go certainly well beyond that.

[00:05:38] And really, we see it more as we're helping, you know, customers manage their workforces, the risks associated with those, you know, with any workforce, the requirements to meet, you know, obligations of the regulatory or – so we're kind of stepping back and seeing, you know, where does a customer have needs that fit where we could, you know, sort of perform well.

[00:06:05] And that's really what drew me in.

[00:06:09] You know, we're very vertically focused at SISIS.

[00:06:12] So this strategy is almost inherent in who we already are, right?

[00:06:17] Right.

[00:06:17] Because main verticals are healthcare, transportation, you know, largely commercial trucking but not, you know, limited to – and financial services.

[00:06:26] And, you know, characteristically, they all – each of those has unique requirements, unique landscape of, you know, again, like, you know, sort of rules they have to comply with, right, and unique needs.

[00:06:42] And, you know, so that's where we feel that the strategy we're undertaking to have that broader role is also very well aligned with being focused by vertical art.

[00:06:54] Because, you know, we're building and we have the knowledge and expertise of what customers are doing in those spaces.

[00:07:01] So we're in a good position to, you know, then work collaborative with customers to achieve those things, right?

[00:07:06] Right. And I would contrast it with, you know, sort of another aspect of the market, the big guys, right, that are, you know, trying to be very broad-based, right, trying to provide, you know, in scale very large-friendly capabilities.

[00:07:20] And I have nothing bad to say about that.

[00:07:22] That, you know, that's a need as well, right?

[00:07:24] So it's not, you know, it's not like one's right, one's wrong.

[00:07:27] It's just, to me, reflective of the diversity of the landscape in the market, right, and what these different customers require.

[00:07:36] So, Larry, quick question here on problem solving.

[00:07:41] Obviously, we know what you do, right?

[00:07:43] I mean, it's pretty straightforward.

[00:07:45] But when a company is looking – what's the problem that a company is truly looking to solve?

[00:07:52] Maybe not on the surface, but a couple of layers deep.

[00:07:54] What is the leadership of that company trying to solve when they reach out to SISIS?

[00:07:59] Yeah, I think it's a few things, right?

[00:08:01] I'd say, you know, kind of on the surface, it's for us to perform our role well and to catch any candidate that they intend to hire and they find out is either maybe not what they thought or there's an issue in the past, right?

[00:08:17] So it's validating that the candidate that they're – you know, one hire is the right candidate and, you know, there's no sort of surprises in their background that are problematic, right?

[00:08:27] So that's sort of kind of, you know, the main element I would say.

[00:08:32] But when you look at the broader need, right, that's a necessity, kind of not an objective, right?

[00:08:37] The objective is to build a talented workforce, right?

[00:08:40] To be able to source, you know, the candidates you need to be able to, you know, hire them over your competitors if it's an area where there's high demand for candidates.

[00:08:51] So that's when things like speed matter, you know, how quickly we can turn things around for our customer and for that candidate because when it is competitive, those things matter, right?

[00:09:04] Hey, it's Bob Pulver, host to you podcast.

[00:09:06] Human-centric AI, AI-driven transformation, hiring for skills and potential, dynamic workforce ecosystems, responsible innovation.

[00:09:16] These are some of the themes my expert guests and I chat about, and we certainly geek out on the details.

[00:09:20] Nothing too technical.

[00:09:22] I hope you check it out.

[00:09:24] It, I think, you know, the experience that the candidate has and the country also matter.

[00:09:30] I'd say more and more, you know, the candidate experience is important because, again, you know, it's a reflection of the company that's hiring them, what that experience is like, right?

[00:09:41] It's, you know, and it, increasingly, we live in a world where if you use tech and it isn't easy to use or it's bad, it creates a bad impression, you know, very broadly, right?

[00:09:54] I think we all are, you know, I guess, well, I'll only speak for myself, but when you come across something that doesn't work very well, it feels dated, it doesn't leave you with a good impression of what, you know, sort of the rest of what that's about, right?

[00:10:06] So, so we're very conscious of it, and I would say Sysive has, you know, work to do there.

[00:10:11] We're not, that's one of the areas where we need to really kind of refresh, and we are, right?

[00:10:18] So, it's really kind of looking at the aspects of what we do that impact them maybe in other ways that aren't as sort of maybe obvious, right?

[00:10:28] Right.

[00:10:28] Is sort of how I would.

[00:10:30] What, it's interesting, Larry, the customers almost also has changed their needs over the years where that, at a point, they just needed background checks before employment to make sure, you mentioned risk management before.

[00:10:45] They just needed it to, it was a checkbox.

[00:10:47] Yeah.

[00:10:48] They needed to make sure, okay, run a screen, make sure this person isn't a murderer, done.

[00:10:52] Did they kill anybody?

[00:10:53] We get it.

[00:10:53] Did they kill anybody?

[00:10:54] Exactly.

[00:10:54] But now, you can see the customers changing and the practitioners changing in their needs in terms of, we want monitoring.

[00:11:03] We need to know, okay, Brad wasn't a murderer before we hired him, but, you know what?

[00:11:10] Now he is.

[00:11:11] Yeah.

[00:11:11] Three months into his tenure, he's picked up or whatever.

[00:11:16] So, you can kind of see them wanting more of a, kind of a SaaS-based model or a model that says, you know what?

[00:11:23] We need to do the pre-employment stuff, but we also need to do this.

[00:11:26] And you also see, especially now with AI and Gen AI, you see them desiring verification.

[00:11:36] So, one's, okay, is this person, you know, a criminal?

[00:11:39] Okay, we can go and search databases and make sure they're not a criminal.

[00:11:42] Okay, fine.

[00:11:43] But is that person that person?

[00:11:45] Yes.

[00:11:47] We've seen practitioners.

[00:11:49] So, tell us a little bit about what you're seeing from customers.

[00:11:53] Really great points and very central to what we're focused on in our strategy.

[00:11:58] Before I sort of jump to that, I just want to, you know, comment your point about needs changing.

[00:12:02] Like, is even within an existing customer, I've seen needs change, right?

[00:12:07] And if you look at how background screen, you know, kind of what it is, right?

[00:12:13] It's not a perfect sort of black and white answer to something, right?

[00:12:18] For, you know, first, right?

[00:12:19] Everybody's doing the best they can, right?

[00:12:21] The other is, you know, the interpretation of what's found is also not very black and white.

[00:12:25] I'll just give one example was we have a particular customer that the individual with responsibility for, you know, the hiring area emphasized verification of employment, even if it was at a, you know, franchise, as a, you know, independently owned McDonald's or something, right?

[00:12:42] It's very critical because it was the way they gauged candidate integrity.

[00:12:47] The candidate, which wasn't into any of their employment, they viewed that as an insight into integrity.

[00:12:53] So, for them, right, that's important.

[00:12:56] I can say for other customers, they go, I don't care if they were working.

[00:13:00] They were working?

[00:13:02] Done.

[00:13:03] Our view is there's no right answer there.

[00:13:06] Right.

[00:13:06] That's right.

[00:13:07] And then, so, to your point about the broader need, what you described is exactly what, you know, we see and are doing, which is it's great to vet an individual when they're hired.

[00:13:20] But that's not the end of the potential, you know, risk or, you know, issue with an employee because things can happen post-hiring, obviously, right?

[00:13:31] So, we're doing a lot of work in that area.

[00:13:35] You know, in healthcare, we have a product called License Manager Pro, which tracks all of the licenses that are required by individuals that are required to be licensed in healthcare and ensures that they're up to date, that they're compliant, that there's no issues.

[00:13:49] So, we're looking at a series of sort of post-hire services that really would be this.

[00:13:56] Obviously, ongoing criminal monitoring is one that's quite important and also quite nuanced, right?

[00:14:04] Right.

[00:14:04] How any employer views, you know, an arrest or some traffic violation even or, you know, DUI, things is all very different as well.

[00:14:18] But what they do want is they do want to be able to monitor and know about that, right?

[00:14:22] So, we are doing, you know, quite a bit of work in those areas to collaborate with customers on what their needs are there.

[00:14:31] And that first defines, you know, our working with customers to where we can expand the capabilities that we have to meet the broader set of needs that are driving their businesses that are important to them these days.

[00:14:45] Larry, what are we looking at here in terms of company, type of company that you work?

[00:14:50] We don't understand the vertical, but is it – are you looking at the complexity of their hiring process?

[00:14:56] Is it the – just the sheer number of employees?

[00:15:00] What makes them a great fit for size?

[00:15:02] Yeah, and I think you hit on a couple of the core elements, right?

[00:15:06] We are best when those needs are specialized, you know, specialized for the industry, to help us, for example.

[00:15:14] But also specialized for that particular customer, right?

[00:15:17] And I'll give an example of that as well.

[00:15:20] One of the ways we are – you know, really kind of integrate tightly with customers is around, you know, workflow integration of our capabilities into their processes rather than it being sort of this experience where they –

[00:15:36] Oh, cool.

[00:15:37] They're outside of what they're doing.

[00:15:38] They run the background check and then, okay, we happen to put it back in, right?

[00:15:41] One of our largest customers literally hires 500 people a day, which still blows my mind to the bottom.

[00:15:50] 500 a day?

[00:15:52] Jesus.

[00:15:53] When you think about what does it take to do that, right?

[00:15:56] Wow.

[00:15:58] A lot of Coca-Cola.

[00:16:00] Ryan just had a heart attack.

[00:16:02] Okay, we're back now.

[00:16:03] I'm a little tired right now.

[00:16:06] My God, the recruiting funnel on that is insane.

[00:16:09] And it's a – you know, it's not a – but it has to be a factory, right?

[00:16:14] Yeah.

[00:16:14] Here's what's happening right now.

[00:16:16] Everybody who's in this space, Larry, that's listening to this show, or we'll see it on LinkedIn, they are thinking, who is this company hiring?

[00:16:26] 500?

[00:16:27] Because I need to get to their team so I can sell my product to them.

[00:16:30] They're going to be digging into this potential.

[00:16:33] Think about that.

[00:16:34] If to hire, how many people did you have to interview?

[00:16:37] How many people did you have to source?

[00:16:40] I get it.

[00:16:41] Oh, my God.

[00:16:42] It's insane.

[00:16:42] Go ahead.

[00:16:43] Tell us more about it.

[00:16:44] So, yeah.

[00:16:44] As you can imagine, they have to run a very rigorous, disciplined process.

[00:16:49] Right.

[00:16:50] So it's an example of – we integrate our workflow with a lot of our large customers, I'd say most, just to make the whole process easier.

[00:17:00] Right.

[00:17:00] They leave and go off.

[00:17:01] In this particular case, with the targets that they're after, they have – one part of it is they have checkpoints at different points during the week.

[00:17:12] I'm making up the time.

[00:17:13] Yeah, yeah.

[00:17:14] By Wednesday at 5 o'clock, we have to be 80% complete through that week's batch of candidates.

[00:17:20] Right.

[00:17:21] So they're monitoring progression through it.

[00:17:25] And we have targets we're getting.

[00:17:26] Because the follow-on is, as you can imagine, right, there's – I've got to do orientation.

[00:17:32] We do all the follow-on setup.

[00:17:34] The manager.

[00:17:35] You can't be a choke point at that point.

[00:17:39] Right.

[00:17:39] You've got to – the through point, they might slow down, and they might want to slow down.

[00:17:45] They can't slow down because –

[00:17:47] No.

[00:17:47] Yeah.

[00:17:48] You are the conveyor belt machine.

[00:17:49] And if – which, you know, sometimes obviously things happen that slow things down.

[00:17:53] They can manage that if they need.

[00:17:55] Right.

[00:17:55] Right.

[00:17:55] So that's where the – you know, this particular element of really tightly managing kind of the flow and the throughput matters because of all the follow-on implications of, well, I thought this guy was going to start on Monday.

[00:18:10] Now it's going to be a week.

[00:18:12] There's a lot to manage beyond – finding and hiring 500 is enough.

[00:18:18] Insimilating them into your organization is also a whole other.

[00:18:21] That's a – yes.

[00:18:22] That's another headache, but let's not deal with that headache.

[00:18:25] But Larry, I got –

[00:18:26] Yeah.

[00:18:27] That's where we see – sorry.

[00:18:28] Our larger role, you know, having, you know, really good context for the customer or, you know, by knowing we can work together to achieve that.

[00:18:39] Right.

[00:18:39] That's sort of how we think about it.

[00:18:41] The more you're integrated into their workflow, the better for them, the easier for them.

[00:18:45] Exactly.

[00:18:46] Two questions, and they're completely different, but I want to kind of gauge what customers are asking you.

[00:18:51] One is about remote hiring.

[00:18:53] Yeah.

[00:18:54] And so the complexities around screening in a remote environment.

[00:18:58] The other is there was a period probably a decade ago where they cared deeply about – recruiters cared deeply about social.

[00:19:09] Yeah.

[00:19:09] There was a period where they were like, okay, I want to know about their Facebook.

[00:19:12] I want to know what they've done, you know, on Instagram, Twitter, and all that other stuff.

[00:19:16] Yeah.

[00:19:16] So two vastly different questions.

[00:19:19] But really what I'm trying to get a feel for is what the customers are kind of asking for these days.

[00:19:24] Yeah.

[00:19:24] And I'll throw another one in too so you look at the marijuana legalization.

[00:19:29] Yeah.

[00:19:29] Point taken.

[00:19:30] Another one that's – it's a dynamic that doesn't have a straightforward answer to it, right?

[00:19:36] Nope.

[00:19:36] And social is a similar one.

[00:19:38] But I think there's obviously a desire to feel more confident that you understand the person you're hiring, right?

[00:19:48] Right.

[00:19:49] That's kind of, you know, without a doubt.

[00:19:51] And remote work angle has introduced some additional, right, dimension to that.

[00:19:57] One we kind of – I don't know.

[00:19:59] I guess the industry may call this too.

[00:20:00] It's a quote-unquote overemployment, which means I have two jobs.

[00:20:04] Right.

[00:20:04] We actually came across someone who had three jobs and had a team of four people in India.

[00:20:12] He was a developer in India doing the work.

[00:20:15] So he was – give it a star for creativity there.

[00:20:20] That is an entrepreneur right there.

[00:20:22] All right.

[00:20:22] Not all bad.

[00:20:24] Not all bad.

[00:20:25] But, yeah.

[00:20:26] That's an example of – it happened occasionally in the past.

[00:20:31] It's much more prevalent now, right?

[00:20:33] So that's an example of sort of the remote work dimension.

[00:20:38] You know, on the social side, it's challenging, I'd say.

[00:20:42] I mean, my observation of it is that in its early days it was a bit more maybe problematic

[00:20:53] due to the how do I interpret this?

[00:20:56] How do I think about this?

[00:20:57] Someone's views maybe that – whatever it may be, right?

[00:21:00] I think the issue now is – or main issue – the dynamic now is that, you know,

[00:21:05] as generational shifts occur, in the younger generations of workers, everybody's got social.

[00:21:11] It's not a one-off anymore.

[00:21:13] And it's also not unusual for that social presence to maybe emphasize certain aspects

[00:21:20] of things that may be, you know, sort of okay or not okay or desirable or not desirable.

[00:21:27] But it's a very challenging area.

[00:21:31] But I think there's a greater acceptance of understanding what is that problematic or not.

[00:21:40] I mean, it's just – it's so prevalent now that I think there's greater comfort for –

[00:21:45] Hey, what's going on, everyone?

[00:21:48] Ryan Leary here from Work Defined.

[00:21:50] You know, if there was one thing that I could change about recruiting, it would probably be

[00:21:55] the amazingly awful candidate experience that job seekers have to endure at one of the most

[00:22:03] stressful times in their life.

[00:22:06] Hiring teams, it is time to step up.

[00:22:09] You've got to create an experience that is memorable, fast and efficient.

[00:22:14] And you can do that with Indeed Smart Sourcing.

[00:22:18] Check them out online at indeed.com or just google Indeed Smart Sourcing.

[00:22:24] This complex finance talk is very hard to do.

[00:22:28] Do I have my own depot ever?

[00:22:29] But you already have a depot.

[00:22:32] No.

[00:22:32] Yes, you have the Vodafone Gigadepot.

[00:22:35] That's right.

[00:22:36] And I have myself in the hand, how big my depot is.

[00:22:38] Now with the Vodafone Gigadepot and the data volume of the next month with us.

[00:22:43] Go on in the 5G-5G-Netz of Vodafone.

[00:22:46] Vodafone. Together we can.

[00:22:49] Hey, everybody's got a life and a persona that may be different outside of work than

[00:22:53] it is inside.

[00:22:54] And I, you know, I need to come to grips with that, right?

[00:22:58] Or be comfortable with that.

[00:22:59] COVID made us all relax a little bit.

[00:23:01] Yeah.

[00:23:02] In a sense of, it stressed us all out, but it aged us.

[00:23:06] But also like seeing cats and kids and, you know, all that stuff.

[00:23:11] More, yeah.

[00:23:11] I think it humanized us, right?

[00:23:12] It did.

[00:23:13] In a good way.

[00:23:14] Yeah.

[00:23:15] Yeah.

[00:23:16] And, you know, that's always my view too is, you know, people have a life and, you know,

[00:23:21] you want to.

[00:23:22] Yeah.

[00:23:22] The job's not their life.

[00:23:23] I don't know.

[00:23:24] I don't know.

[00:23:24] I still don't know how I would take an employer joining a Facebook group just to see the group

[00:23:31] that I'm in.

[00:23:32] Yeah.

[00:23:32] Like that's a private group, right?

[00:23:34] Like I've heard stories like this before where recruiters are following people and then,

[00:23:39] you know, this is obviously not using software.

[00:23:42] So none of this is probably sanctioned by their company.

[00:23:46] We'll just go there.

[00:23:48] But, oh, I saw what Ryan's part of these four groups.

[00:23:51] I'm going to go join these groups and I'm going to, I'm not, I'm not sure I'm a fan of that.

[00:23:58] Yeah.

[00:23:58] Same here.

[00:23:59] Yeah.

[00:23:59] Technology managing the process.

[00:24:01] Looking.

[00:24:02] I get it, right?

[00:24:03] We, we, we need to understand.

[00:24:04] Like a question I've got here, where do you find that most companies are spending their

[00:24:12] brain power on this?

[00:24:13] Is it monitoring post hire or is it the initial go at it?

[00:24:19] I know they're doing both, but where are they really putting their brain power towards

[00:24:24] it?

[00:24:25] Yeah.

[00:24:26] It's a great question.

[00:24:27] And I'd say that the diligence and, you know, of the pre hire just continues to increase,

[00:24:36] I think in importance, right?

[00:24:37] Because the risks are higher.

[00:24:39] Right.

[00:24:39] The uncertainties and the challenge of identifying them is just always gets harder.

[00:24:44] Right.

[00:24:44] So that I think, you know, continues to sort of elevate an importance just as we evolve

[00:24:50] as a, you know, that's sort of a, you know, human race.

[00:24:56] The post hire is, I would say, very much an unmet need at this point where the, the, the need

[00:25:04] and the desire to have a better handle on the things that could happen after I've been

[00:25:09] with somebody in my workforce, right?

[00:25:10] I think is, you know, very much an, an, an unmet need.

[00:25:15] I mean, we're, we're, so we think there's a lot of, you know, room for it.

[00:25:19] And the capabilities that really haven't been there yet, that background screeners can provide

[00:25:26] the optimal solutions to some of these things.

[00:25:29] So I think that's a bigger development for us.

[00:25:32] But I, that's how I would, I don't think it's any less important.

[00:25:36] I think it's just less of a met need.

[00:25:38] And my, my instinct is that as that need starts to get met, it will then continue to evolve in

[00:25:47] its, you know, sort of sophistication because the benefits are sizable, right?

[00:25:52] The, the benefit, the, the, the damage of something bad happening to, right?

[00:25:58] A company is, you know, it can, it can be monumental, right?

[00:26:02] It can be, you know, just really game changing for a business when some, you know, horrific

[00:26:07] incident happens, right?

[00:26:09] So the vigilance and the, and I use good recognition of that.

[00:26:14] Yeah.

[00:26:15] We live in a world where something goes wrong, the world knows.

[00:26:19] Oh yeah.

[00:26:20] Is a lot of this, do you think a lot of this is driven by the fear of retaliation or the

[00:26:25] fear of the PR nightmare?

[00:26:27] Well, I think it's money.

[00:26:28] I think it's, well, yeah, money, right.

[00:26:31] It all comes down to it.

[00:26:33] Fear of a hundred million dollar lawsuit.

[00:26:35] Right.

[00:26:35] That's where I was going with that.

[00:26:37] Is that, is that what's driving this post higher?

[00:26:39] Yeah.

[00:26:39] I think it's kind of all, in many ways, all the thought, especially if you contrast it

[00:26:44] with what might've been before, right?

[00:26:46] Right.

[00:26:46] Where these things probably wouldn't get talked about, written about.

[00:26:49] No, you didn't know.

[00:26:50] You fell in a forest.

[00:26:52] So now we live in a world where everybody knows.

[00:26:56] And then you still get a lot of opinions about it.

[00:27:00] Right.

[00:27:00] Right.

[00:27:00] People are happy to kind of Monday morning quarterback something and be heard of it.

[00:27:05] They didn't stop something from happening.

[00:27:08] And then here's liability.

[00:27:10] It's also, here's a random, random for the conversation question, but not random because

[00:27:16] I was having this conversation the other day.

[00:27:19] So as you're, I'm not sure how you're, where you guys are based and how it's set up.

[00:27:24] If we drive over a bridge, especially from Philly in the Jersey, it is billboard after

[00:27:30] billboard after billboard after billboard with, or into the city of injury law firms.

[00:27:37] Yeah.

[00:27:37] And things like that.

[00:27:39] It is just plastered everywhere for whatever reason.

[00:27:42] Right.

[00:27:42] It's plastic.

[00:27:43] So the guy that I was with, we were having a conversation and I don't know how this came

[00:27:49] up, but it came up because of the billboard.

[00:27:51] So I don't know why my mind went here, probably because I spend my life here talking about things

[00:27:55] like this that are not interesting to people who don't care about this.

[00:28:01] But does, as you're talking, Larry, this is what's triggered in my mind.

[00:28:08] You know what you should know?

[00:28:10] You should know that you should know podcasts.

[00:28:13] That's what you should know because then you'd be in the know on all things that are timely

[00:28:18] and topical.

[00:28:19] Subscribe to the, you should know podcast.

[00:28:22] Thanks.

[00:28:23] Are you monitoring or in theory, could this be monitored where William has five lawsuits

[00:28:32] over the past, you know, we hired him to, you know, three years ago, he's got five lawsuits

[00:28:37] for injuries elsewhere or whatever.

[00:28:41] We need to be concerned about William and monitor him here.

[00:28:45] He may be ready to, you know, bring the suit towards us.

[00:28:49] It's not a protected class, right?

[00:28:50] Yeah.

[00:28:51] So if, so as long as it's not a protected, excuse me, I'm not the expert.

[00:28:55] However, I play one on TV.

[00:28:58] As long as it's not a protected class, if someone's had five lawsuits in there before,

[00:29:05] you can screen them in or screen them out.

[00:29:06] Oh yeah.

[00:29:07] Well, yeah.

[00:29:07] So I'm saying like, so as they're hired though, right?

[00:29:10] Is that something employees or employers are monitoring?

[00:29:13] As long as they have, it's something I would say that's where the unmet need exists.

[00:29:18] The answer is not to the full extent that they would like to, right?

[00:29:23] Yeah.

[00:29:23] But you're hitting on, I think, another key point, right?

[00:29:25] Which goes back to sort of the $100 million lawsuit point.

[00:29:29] Because that is, that's the other reality that companies face is the lawsuits are big, right?

[00:29:36] There's plenty of individuals out there to be happy to pursue them.

[00:29:40] And the liabilities are in several places, right?

[00:29:43] The individual also, I think, you know, we all have a, maybe more self-awareness and self-importance of our own protection of our information, what's right and not right.

[00:29:55] Sort of, right?

[00:29:56] So the employees have to navigate that they do these things in a fair and proper way as well,

[00:30:02] so that they don't expose themselves to, you know, inadvertently to a liability associated from the employer, employee themselves, right?

[00:30:12] Mm-hmm.

[00:30:12] You know, them running afoul of some of theirs.

[00:30:14] It's sort of this overall heightened, you know, complex, you know, world of both reputational and real, you know, sort of legal monetary risk that everyone, you know, has to navigate.

[00:30:28] And, you know, privacy protections, right?

[00:30:32] Look at some of the stuff coming in California, right?

[00:30:35] There's a very strong orientation toward protecting the liberties of, you know, residents in California,

[00:30:41] and that does put onus on employers to adhere to more obligations that reflect that, right?

[00:30:49] So they're all, you know, they can be done, but you have to do them, right?

[00:30:55] They're real obligations.

[00:30:56] Well, in the regulated industries that you deal with, it can be exposed to such a risk if the truck driver hasn't renewed their driver's license

[00:31:06] or their license or a nurse hasn't renewed their or a financial services person hasn't renewed their.

[00:31:12] So, I mean, there's risk associated just with them not renewing things.

[00:31:18] You know, my question is, and in educating the practitioners, this isn't a perfect science.

[00:31:25] It's never been a perfect science.

[00:31:27] Never been, yeah.

[00:31:27] And it will probably never be a perfect science.

[00:31:30] We will pursue that goal.

[00:31:32] However, what's, when you talk to clients, how much do they know of that not being a perfect science?

[00:31:42] Yeah, that's a great point.

[00:31:44] I think it's hard to tell.

[00:31:47] I mean, it's hard to be very, you know, about this because the way I describe it internally, the way I think of it is that we live on the margins in many ways.

[00:31:57] We're a business where 99% of everything can be done, no issue, but it's the one or two, you know, get through it.

[00:32:06] And I respect that, right?

[00:32:08] The joke I sometimes use is, you know, we can vet, you know, an employee's candidates for hiring and maybe we don't, you know, we'll get everybody up to this point or something percent.

[00:32:20] But then you look at it and say, that's 40 people, and if I put them all in a room together with me, it's going to feel like a lot of criminals, you know.

[00:32:29] So the point being that there's validity in it, right?

[00:32:35] I'm not for a second saying that.

[00:32:38] But as a result, we do tend to sort of live and operate on those margins, right?

[00:32:42] So I think that's one important sort of aspect of your question because of the context, right?

[00:32:48] But I do think there's a bit of a, you know, a misunderstanding.

[00:32:52] And I can tell you that I had it myself when I came into this.

[00:32:55] Yeah, yeah.

[00:32:56] As to what was achievable, how hard some of this can be.

[00:33:02] So I think that's a never-ending dynamic in many ways.

[00:33:07] Right, yeah.

[00:33:08] It is very, very complex.

[00:33:10] Is there an element of trust but verify as you're talking with clients?

[00:33:15] There is, for sure, yep.

[00:33:17] And it's something, you know, increasingly for ourselves.

[00:33:21] The best way I see of addressing is becoming more and more transparent, right?

[00:33:26] Because we are confident we're going to do the best we can do.

[00:33:31] We're always going to strive to do better, but it will be imperfect.

[00:33:35] And the more that transparency exists to customers, we believe that that's the right way to go.

[00:33:42] Right.

[00:33:43] Because it's just reality.

[00:33:44] We can't, there's no point in pretending we could be perfect or pretending we don't have any issues, right?

[00:33:50] That'd be a bit of a, you know, fool's errand, right?

[00:33:52] So, but that's an area where we are working more.

[00:33:56] We're doing a lot in our operational team to really capture more, really to the level of full detail of exactly what was undertaken for any one particular, you know, sort of case.

[00:34:12] It's work in progress, but the concept is to have transparency and see.

[00:34:19] And, you know, because at the end of the day, then there's still, you know, there's a judgment that has to also be made.

[00:34:24] Mm-hmm.

[00:34:25] We did a, so we do a show, Larry, on Sundays.

[00:34:29] And recently, it was last week, we talked about a settlement from a screening and services company where they wrongly convicted somebody as a murder, or put it forward as a murderer.

[00:34:44] I might have that backwards.

[00:34:46] But the company just took it for what it was and didn't verify.

[00:34:51] And so it turns out the person had the same name or something like that, but it was the wrong person.

[00:34:57] And this happens a lot, a lot more than we actually believed or thought that it would happen, which is why I asked a question.

[00:35:05] Trust him, but verify.

[00:35:07] Yeah.

[00:35:08] And I think it's, you know, potentially getting harder to do as well, right?

[00:35:12] Again, not to pick on California, but their privacy.

[00:35:16] No, you can pick on California.

[00:35:18] You're in a safe space.

[00:35:20] Their privacy laws are going in a direction that, you know, protects the individual increasingly.

[00:35:26] Oh, yeah.

[00:35:27] That's why a lot of businesses are moving to Texas.

[00:35:30] All that people know is the individual.

[00:35:32] You know, if they start redacting certain persons involved in a nation, that makes it hard for us to confirm we're getting the right person, right?

[00:35:41] That's, you know, it's how you balance those things and understand that, you know, solve one problem, but do you sort of, you know, potentially create a more challenging one to navigate.

[00:35:51] And I think that's also where the world's going.

[00:35:55] You know, I think AI is going to probably turbocharge some of those issues because, you know, as you can imagine, the application of AI in this environment where there's sensitivity to, you know, situations like you just described, right, not happening.

[00:36:15] And, you know, I think that also is going to be a very challenging aspect of we navigate forward and how AI is or isn't applied to the work we do or the work any other, you know, companies like ourselves do when it comes to looking at individuals and, you know, characterizing their backgrounds or understanding their backgrounds.

[00:36:37] So, Larry, the last question for me is it's that triangle of price, quality and speed, right?

[00:36:45] So, there's gives and takes and a negotiation that has to happen.

[00:36:51] If you want high quality, can you get that in 30 seconds, right?

[00:36:57] And can you get that for, you know, pennies on the dollar, et cetera?

[00:37:02] So, like, how do you help both your sales team as well as, you know, your customer team kind of understand there's tradeoffs that are made here, right?

[00:37:14] So, like, what's your big?

[00:37:16] Because I love that you worked in sales, so you fundamentally get this.

[00:37:20] Yeah.

[00:37:21] So, a great question.

[00:37:23] And that, you know, quality is in the eye of the beholder, right, also because it has to attach to what the need is, right?

[00:37:30] So, and that's a, you know, a landscape that's also highly, you know, variable based on, you know, postures on company.

[00:37:39] We have, you know, one customer that had an incident happen, I think it was probably 20 years ago.

[00:37:45] And, but you would think it happened yesterday because they're so vigilant to ensure that that never happens again, right?

[00:37:53] So, so they gravitate heavily toward quality.

[00:37:57] Yeah.

[00:37:57] The way, you know, but it's a hard, you know, it's not the easiest thing to define and convey.

[00:38:05] That's where, though, transparency, that's where transparency can help because, one, you're, you know, you're showing here's what I'm doing.

[00:38:15] The quality is really inherent in the work I do to get to these things, right?

[00:38:20] Right.

[00:38:21] That's probably the first and best reflection of how quality might vary, right?

[00:38:27] And we're also moving to where we can start to see what, which aspects of the work we do drive some of these, you know, like, some of these outcomes.

[00:38:38] Like, what are the things we do that drives quality?

[00:38:40] Right.

[00:38:41] And when does it sort of diminish?

[00:38:43] It can kind of how deep do we have to go?

[00:38:44] How, you know, things like that will become also more transparent to us and customers where there'll be data to say, okay, I want quality.

[00:38:55] Here's how I think I'm achieving that.

[00:38:57] But now here's what it's resulting in.

[00:38:59] And when I did it this way, I got this.

[00:39:01] When I now do it this way, I get that, right?

[00:39:03] So it's sort of revealing the spectrum of things I can do with more insight into when they matter.

[00:39:11] I think those are the, you know, really the core element.

[00:39:15] We are, you know, known in the market as a quality provider.

[00:39:20] I think that, you know, means a few different things.

[00:39:24] In terms of what we do, we are higher priced typically.

[00:39:28] But for us, you know, we look at it as, is that what the customer needs?

[00:39:33] If the customer, that isn't their need, we respect that.

[00:39:36] It's just not a great fit for us.

[00:39:38] Right.

[00:39:39] There's no providers that are fit for that.

[00:39:41] So we try to, you know, we're shifting more toward also, you know, should you be kind of a customer?

[00:39:48] Are we the right person for you, right?

[00:39:50] So we're really trying to be thoughtful about that and also very upfront about that.

[00:39:55] Because if they just want, you know, kind of vanilla, solid, you know, blocking and tackling stuff, that's probably not us.

[00:40:03] And that's probably a better customer for a different provider.

[00:40:08] And again, we respect all that.

[00:40:10] That makes sense.

[00:40:12] It's not a one uniform market of meat out there.

[00:40:18] So let's move on.

[00:40:19] Larry, this has been fantastic.

[00:40:22] 100%.

[00:40:23] Yeah, we actually got a lot of good information in here.

[00:40:26] It wasn't just about the tech, right?

[00:40:27] It was about what you guys are solving.

[00:40:29] So this is super helpful.

[00:40:30] Yeah.

[00:40:31] Great job for the audience.

[00:40:32] What I'm excited about coming into this space is it's, yeah, it's really, it's sort of from, I don't know,

[00:40:39] it doesn't always get the respect it deserves maybe for this.

[00:40:41] Yeah.

[00:40:41] Right.

[00:40:42] Right.

[00:40:43] Right.

[00:40:43] Uh-huh.

[00:40:43] For years.

[00:40:44] Yeah.

[00:40:44] For years, it was the red-headed stepchild.

[00:40:47] Yeah.

[00:40:47] In some ways, it still is, and it'll move.

[00:40:49] I was going to say, and I'm not sure that's escaped, but, but yeah, what excites me is the need.

[00:40:54] There's that, the need is there and there, and that's kind of the exciting journey.

[00:41:00] You either manage your risk, or your risk manages you.

[00:41:03] So again, it could be the red-headed stepchild.

[00:41:06] However, you're not going back.

[00:41:09] That's all.

[00:41:09] No, it's not going back.

[00:41:11] One direction.

[00:41:12] No.

[00:41:13] Brother, thank you so much for your time and your wisdom.

[00:41:16] We really appreciate you.