Getting Inclusive AF with Shannon and Tracey

[00:00:00] You're listening to Inclusive AF with Jackie Clayton and Katie Van Horn.

[00:00:07] Hi, Jackie.

[00:00:11] Hi.

[00:00:12] How are you doing, Katie Van Horn?

[00:00:14] I am good, Jackie Clayton.

[00:00:16] Hey, Inclusive AF Podcast, here we go.

[00:00:21] It's time to start this party because, you know, we're spending all kinds of quality

[00:00:24] time together this week.

[00:00:28] It's actually, you all don't know this and are listening, but Jackie and I have been on

[00:00:32] hiatus from each other unfortunately because we've both been traveling and working way too

[00:00:36] much.

[00:00:37] So we haven't seen each other and now this week we're trying to record a couple of episodes

[00:00:42] in a row.

[00:00:43] So we're getting all kinds of quality time together.

[00:00:45] So we're caught up.

[00:00:46] Yeah.

[00:00:47] If you all hear us recording on Saturday, please know that if we start like, bakerying,

[00:00:52] it's just because we're sisters and that's what we do.

[00:00:55] Right?

[00:00:56] So it works out well for everyone.

[00:00:58] But welcome, welcome to everyone.

[00:01:02] We have some amazing guests with us today and so I'm going to, without further ado, turn

[00:01:07] it over to Tracy Lovejoy and Shannon Lucas to introduce themselves and then we'll jump

[00:01:13] right in.

[00:01:14] Katie, Jackie, thank you for having us with you and thank you for jumping in and

[00:01:19] making me giggle right away.

[00:01:20] I so appreciate it.

[00:01:22] My background I am come straight out of graduate school into the corporate environment where

[00:01:28] I went from studying social science and anthropology into being a researcher in technology, totally

[00:01:33] a random connection.

[00:01:35] Ended up spending 12 years at Microsoft where I love to study why do people do

[00:01:40] what they do?

[00:01:41] How do we embed this knowledge into innovation?

[00:01:44] But really my love was always that people side.

[00:01:49] And so once I started being able to be a manager of individuals and then later of teams,

[00:01:54] that's where I started to light up.

[00:01:56] I fell into a coaching class because I wanted to use this as a way to grow my leadership

[00:02:02] and it was a very disruptive moment in my life.

[00:02:05] You know the things you hear like the clouds part, the angels were singing of this is

[00:02:10] something you're meant to do which I was not looking for.

[00:02:14] So after about three years staying at Microsoft once I started that path I finally left started

[00:02:20] a consultancy that was in 2013.

[00:02:23] And once I went into consultancy where I was working with organizations supporting leaders,

[00:02:27] I wanted to figure out who do I specifically want to work with and so I started doing

[00:02:31] a research project because that's what researchers do.

[00:02:34] And I was thinking about who are my favorite clients that I've had at that point I'd

[00:02:38] been coaching for five years and there was this incredible set of trends that

[00:02:43] was a through line.

[00:02:44] There were people who set huge audacious goals that they were scared at first to talk about

[00:02:49] but then they'd come back to our coaching session next time and they had totally gotten

[00:02:53] on the track and they had done their homework and they were so excited to make big powerful

[00:02:57] change.

[00:02:58] And they started to look in the literature for people like this who are those fire

[00:03:02] starters who are the people at the front end of innovation.

[00:03:05] I didn't see anything on the bookshelves I saw the books about how to do innovation

[00:03:09] but this time in 2015 who they were within it was not much talked about.

[00:03:15] And so then I started a second research project of really studying them.

[00:03:20] Income Shannon Lucas.

[00:03:22] At the time she was one of my very favorite clients and I was like hey Shannon I'm doing

[00:03:27] this research project studying people just like you.

[00:03:30] Would you be willing to let me interview you for that project?

[00:03:34] Cliff Hanger.

[00:03:35] Cliff Hanger.

[00:03:36] Did I say yes or no?

[00:03:39] I'm going to go back.

[00:03:40] I have a degree in art history but when I graduated if you could spell TCPIP you were

[00:03:46] allowed to be a network engineer.

[00:03:48] I remember that year.

[00:03:49] That was a very good year if you could spell TCPIP.

[00:03:53] So I also ended up working at Microsoft although we never crossed paths there and just really

[00:04:00] quickly ended up following the tech career always thinking getting further away from

[00:04:04] the tech and more into the why.

[00:04:05] Like why how are people using this?

[00:04:07] Why are they using it?

[00:04:09] When I landed my dream job and I got to build out an innovation program from scratch at the

[00:04:14] world's largest, one of the world's largest mobile telephony companies Vodafone.

[00:04:18] The hypothesis that we were building that innovation program on was that we wanted to

[00:04:22] find the natural positive troublemakers all around the world because Vodafone is truly

[00:04:26] global.

[00:04:27] Unite them, connect them, help them stop reinventing the wheel, give them a shared

[00:04:31] language, some processes and remove as many barriers as we could and get that fly

[00:04:35] wheel going.

[00:04:37] We were wildly successful by and I was super naive about the success honestly.

[00:04:41] We were wildly successful tens of millions of in-year revenue, 12% ARR uplift for companies

[00:04:46] that went through our program completely changing who we were talking to from IT and

[00:04:50] procurement to the C-suite.

[00:04:53] But coming into year four I was burning out.

[00:04:55] Now we had from eight Ragtag innovation champions to this certified gamified CEO

[00:05:00] sponsored innovation champion program.

[00:05:04] I was traveling around the world trying to unlock the problem of why even though it was

[00:05:07] a volunteer program you could not be voluntold to participate in this, people showed up

[00:05:12] differently.

[00:05:14] And I was like if I could just double, let's say it was 100 at that point, if I could

[00:05:17] just double the 30% to the 60%, we would more than 10x the impact.

[00:05:22] It would have just unlocked such insane potential.

[00:05:25] I was burning out.

[00:05:26] I was a single mom at the time too and my college roommate when I studied art

[00:05:29] history, it was back in my life and she said have you ever thought about

[00:05:32] a coach?

[00:05:33] And I was like no, I've never thought about a coach.

[00:05:35] And literally someone compared Aura's and matched me with Tracy and here we are today.

[00:05:40] And so when she sat me down and said can I interview this, it was like being hit by

[00:05:44] a bolt of lightning.

[00:05:45] I remember where I was sitting.

[00:05:46] It explained my entire life.

[00:05:48] I was like oh my God, they don't want change.

[00:05:51] Like they operate differently.

[00:05:52] I just, I really didn't understand.

[00:05:55] And I had created this external executive community that was hand picking change

[00:05:59] leaders that I thought were like me and I was like well, co-created.

[00:06:02] I don't want to own another community.

[00:06:03] Right?

[00:06:04] And the same thing was happening there.

[00:06:06] So I said to Tracy, I said I've been thinking about doing a retreat with these

[00:06:09] people in Northern California with some hot tubs and good wines, good food and

[00:06:13] you know, recharging because this group needs it.

[00:06:15] And I said, do you want to do that with me?

[00:06:18] And she said yes.

[00:06:19] And so that was the beginning of our company.

[00:06:21] I stayed in the corporate world leading innovation efforts at Cisco

[00:06:25] and Ericsson after in 2020.

[00:06:28] We came together and write a book, started our podcast that year too.

[00:06:31] Turned out to be a great year to write a book.

[00:06:33] So our book is Move Fast, Brakeship Burnout.

[00:06:35] You can see it behind Tracy, the catalyst guide to working well.

[00:06:39] And so I hope your listeners can hear that we are very spiritually

[00:06:41] aligned with the work that you're doing.

[00:06:44] Awesome.

[00:06:45] Awesome.

[00:06:45] So I just, I did not realize both of you are Microsofters.

[00:06:50] So I am a prior GoDaddy.

[00:06:52] So we have a lot of mutual connections, all of the folks that moved over

[00:06:55] to GoDaddy after they were spent their one of their lifetimes in Microsoft.

[00:07:00] So we have some mutual connections for sure.

[00:07:03] Love all of this.

[00:07:04] So tell me a little bit about, you know, how do you identify

[00:07:10] who those people are that are the breakers or the, you know,

[00:07:14] whatever you call them?

[00:07:16] Yeah.

[00:07:18] One way is that.

[00:07:19] You call them catalysts just for super clarity.

[00:07:22] Yes.

[00:07:22] Thank you.

[00:07:22] Thank you.

[00:07:23] Yeah.

[00:07:24] Thanks.

[00:07:24] But one way is you can just ask people around you, who are the folks

[00:07:30] that you think are starting the ideas and jumping into action?

[00:07:35] And a lot of the time people will start pointing to the same people.

[00:07:39] So once you begin to look in the organization or organizational

[00:07:43] setting, they're kind of known, if not talked about.

[00:07:47] And breaking down from the research, we know the key attributes

[00:07:51] that really make who we are.

[00:07:53] So you can hear it in the way we're talking about it.

[00:07:56] We are folks that create lots and lots of ideas of how to make

[00:08:00] the world around us better by just walking around and experiencing

[00:08:04] the world.

[00:08:05] And so we're doing it then at a pace that's a little faster

[00:08:09] than everyone else, putting together that information.

[00:08:11] And once we have this idea, we really do, even if we haven't

[00:08:15] articulated it to ourselves, well, we see a vision of how the world

[00:08:18] could be better.

[00:08:19] So it's not just it's broken, it's broken, it's broken.

[00:08:22] But wouldn't it be better if it were like this?

[00:08:26] And before sometimes we can say that out loud, we are tripping into action

[00:08:31] to make it so often.

[00:08:34] Did I just describe you, Jackie?

[00:08:37] Well, I don't.

[00:08:38] So I get nervous because I'm the type of person who like,

[00:08:41] I don't want to deal with anyone.

[00:08:43] I don't want to deal with anyone.

[00:08:44] Someone's going to try to put those things together and then

[00:08:47] full of malarkey right now, whatever.

[00:08:49] It's a good trade.

[00:08:51] I can't help but find the nicest.

[00:08:54] It doesn't mean that it comes from a fun place.

[00:08:56] I can't help that.

[00:08:57] Right.

[00:08:57] That's just, that's just my rearing.

[00:09:00] Right.

[00:09:01] I'm a nice Southern woman.

[00:09:02] However, sometimes it's like a mood day.

[00:09:06] Like I'm like, uh, like I had to figure out when I woke up in the morning,

[00:09:10] I think I can do it today.

[00:09:12] Do I have enough energy today?

[00:09:13] And then there's some days where it's like, nope.

[00:09:16] I mean, literally, I think one of my favorite times, Katie, and you

[00:09:18] remember this very, I know you remember this.

[00:09:21] It was me and Katie.

[00:09:23] And then we, there's another half of me and Katie and there's John and Robin.

[00:09:27] We were all out when we were doing all this stuff.

[00:09:29] And then literally we were at a table for like an hour.

[00:09:33] Nobody talking.

[00:09:34] We were all sitting like this at this table for like an hour.

[00:09:40] And people kept walking by.

[00:09:41] Do you remember Katie?

[00:09:42] People are walking by and I was like, don't, I don't want to talk to them.

[00:09:45] Okay.

[00:09:45] They're like, oh, that guy was looking for you earlier.

[00:09:47] I was like, I don't want to talk to them.

[00:09:48] Okay.

[00:09:48] Don't look at them.

[00:09:49] So we're all just like sitting.

[00:09:52] So it's like a roller coaster, but now it's like maybe it's because I've

[00:09:55] been connecting with the wrong people and I'm exhausted.

[00:09:59] I think there's the right people and the wrong people.

[00:10:01] They saw a hundred percent, a hundred percent.

[00:10:03] So I'm just going to finish the definition and I'll come back to that, Jackie.

[00:10:06] So so that people can sort of self identify on the thing.

[00:10:08] Tracy was like, we move into action.

[00:10:10] We can't help ourselves from moving into action.

[00:10:12] And Jackie, some just sort of building on your point where we haven't

[00:10:16] already, we haven't always primed those around us for the action that we're

[00:10:20] about to do.

[00:10:20] And as Tracy said, sometimes we don't even realize that that's what we've done.

[00:10:25] The research also says we show up with that experimentation mindset.

[00:10:28] We have to because almost by definition, everything we're doing is net

[00:10:31] news.

[00:10:31] So that level of ambiguity isn't like, I don't know, I'll start a

[00:10:33] podcast, we'll figure it out.

[00:10:35] I'm, yeah, we need the world needs the podcast, right?

[00:10:38] The last piece is interesting because it's people will describe us.

[00:10:42] This is the one where it's like not how we self identify, but how

[00:10:45] other people identify us, which is they'll say that they're comfortable

[00:10:48] with risk and ambiguity.

[00:10:50] Now if you ask catalyst and there's a range.

[00:10:52] So like I am an adrenaline junkie, like motorcycle, rock climbing, skydiving,

[00:10:55] all the things.

[00:10:56] Tracy's a researcher.

[00:10:57] So like we do come with personality, different personalities and relationships

[00:11:00] to risk, but more it's like if you ask the catalyst or the catalyst

[00:11:04] might ask you or say it's risky not to do this thing.

[00:11:07] So it's not that I don't see that there's not risk, but I see the

[00:11:11] bigger risk actually in not making that change.

[00:11:14] Um, and so going back to what you're saying, Jackie, there's so many.

[00:11:17] And I was going to say this sort of at the beginning of Tracy was like, if

[00:11:21] you ask people in the organization who those people are, they might all

[00:11:24] point at the same person, but they also might point at the same person

[00:11:27] because they're like that person is a fucking pain in the ass.

[00:11:30] They are constantly breaking stuff.

[00:11:32] They're totally unself aware.

[00:11:34] Right.

[00:11:34] And so, and so we can have this reputation where we are actually

[00:11:38] causing more friction in the system because we don't understand.

[00:11:41] That's why when Tracy shared it with me, that bolt of lightning,

[00:11:44] I was like, Oh my God.

[00:11:45] No wonder I've been causing so much friction in the system.

[00:11:49] And so they've been moving to doing performance reviews like that.

[00:11:54] Like, oh, who's the person who does all the stuff?

[00:11:56] And I'm like, now that doesn't mean that that's positive.

[00:12:00] That does not mean I mean people are like, oh, that's the real

[00:12:02] influencer within your organization.

[00:12:04] So let's figure out what they're doing.

[00:12:05] It's like that.

[00:12:07] I mean, that's good.

[00:12:08] Oh, it doesn't mean that's good.

[00:12:09] And so we're called troublemakers and problem children and all of the

[00:12:12] things and we can wear the badge of disruptor like it's a good thing.

[00:12:15] But that's not often how people are actually what they're saying

[00:12:18] about us behind our back.

[00:12:19] Right.

[00:12:20] Breaking dishes.

[00:12:22] That's it.

[00:12:24] Now that so your thing about the energy though is spot on because

[00:12:28] there's a big piece of us that are that are catalysts that are

[00:12:31] energy givers, like we're putting energy into a system to create change

[00:12:36] during our first retreat that we were talking about one person was

[00:12:39] like, I don't know if I belong here after people were doing intros.

[00:12:42] She's like, I'm really an introvert and I just feel like everyone

[00:12:45] here with everything they've done, they must be so extroverted.

[00:12:48] So we just stopped.

[00:12:49] Well, like, hey, time out who hears an introvert half the people raise

[00:12:52] their hand.

[00:12:53] And then there's just this emotional management like that.

[00:12:56] Like we call like my favorite one is where the sharpest of change.

[00:13:00] And I think now related to like an inclusivity piece, there's a huge

[00:13:03] emotional toll.

[00:13:04] There's an emotional labor.

[00:13:05] If you want to create change, those people don't need to create

[00:13:09] change.

[00:13:09] They're not asking for the change.

[00:13:11] So if you want to create change, you have to bring them along.

[00:13:14] And so then Jackie, we get depleted.

[00:13:16] The burnout is real.

[00:13:17] It's really high in this sort of population.

[00:13:20] And so then you're just at your table with your friends going,

[00:13:22] I just need another wine.

[00:13:24] Don't talk to me.

[00:13:25] Yeah.

[00:13:26] This feels like a safe place.

[00:13:28] But I was gonna say, but I think that's part of it is it

[00:13:31] sounds like what you're doing is actually building a community

[00:13:35] of these folks that can feel safe and come together and have

[00:13:40] like the examples Jackie gave you.

[00:13:44] Yes, I do remember it.

[00:13:45] It's actually happened a few times when we've all been at

[00:13:48] conferences because we go three hundred miles per hour.

[00:13:51] Here's what we should do.

[00:13:52] Here's what we should change.

[00:13:53] Here's how we should change the world and make it better.

[00:13:56] And then we hit a wall and all of us sit at a table and go,

[00:13:59] oh my goodness, I can't talk to one more human today.

[00:14:03] But I love that you're creating this community.

[00:14:05] So what do you do with this energy, with these folks

[00:14:11] that are doing this work and are these troublemakers and catalysts?

[00:14:16] So I'd love to build on the comment that you said we build

[00:14:19] community really intentionally in two ways.

[00:14:22] So our goal is to help accelerate big bold change

[00:14:25] in the world sort of through empowering catalysts.

[00:14:29] And so we look at catalyst leaders because it is lonely

[00:14:32] at the top like you think it's lonely at the top.

[00:14:34] It's really lonely when you're a catalyst leader.

[00:14:36] A lot of us don't ever get the self-awareness to actually make

[00:14:39] it that far. That's true.

[00:14:40] And also we can be noisy and destructive and all the things.

[00:14:43] So we have a catalyst leadership trust where we support

[00:14:45] the executives and create that safe space.

[00:14:47] And this is the community I wish I had been able to have

[00:14:50] access to when I was in EVP in the tech world, right?

[00:14:53] Because I couldn't share all of my thoughts and uncertainties

[00:14:56] about the future with my peers.

[00:14:57] They would have been like, you don't know what you're doing.

[00:14:59] They would have been like, well, not really because it's all net new.

[00:15:02] You were asking me to unlock a new market that you guys have

[00:15:04] never unlocked. Who has that playbook? Nobody does.

[00:15:07] So getting to create the safe space for them is like,

[00:15:09] that is God's gift to me.

[00:15:11] That was just saying to Tracy, like I'm just so grateful

[00:15:13] to be able to bring that into the world.

[00:15:15] We also work with organizations, though, to help them.

[00:15:18] So you asked a great question, Katie, at the beginning,

[00:15:20] which I want to let Tracy answer, which is,

[00:15:22] how do you help organizations identify these people

[00:15:25] and just the bringing them together?

[00:15:27] I still get goosebumps.

[00:15:28] So like we create these like networks,

[00:15:30] informal networks across the organization.

[00:15:33] But when they're in class,

[00:15:34] they're also with catalysts from other industries,

[00:15:36] from other countries, from other backgrounds.

[00:15:38] And we tell them, OK, the skills improve,

[00:15:41] all 20 skills improve every single class.

[00:15:43] It's a phenomenally high impact class.

[00:15:46] The thing that the catalyst love every single time

[00:15:49] and it just happened today,

[00:15:50] I was talking with Sarah, the program sponsor for them.

[00:15:52] She said, you told me that I would,

[00:15:53] that would be my number one thing

[00:15:54] is being in community with the other catalyst

[00:15:56] because it's not just a safe place.

[00:15:58] It's energy giving.

[00:15:59] She's like, we were doing so much work.

[00:16:01] We were doing this in addition to our day job.

[00:16:03] And she said, but the time,

[00:16:04] the second we got together and the second that we left,

[00:16:06] I had more energy.

[00:16:08] So, but Tracy, I'd love for you to talk about

[00:16:11] how we find them.

[00:16:13] We have an assessment that people can answer

[00:16:16] that align to the six attributes

[00:16:18] that we know kind of make us who we are.

[00:16:21] And so we can use that with groups.

[00:16:23] And this is what we use in organizational settings

[00:16:26] so that we can look at it

[00:16:28] and kind of get that sense of where do people fit

[00:16:30] on that scale of catalyticness.

[00:16:33] And then we build out groups

[00:16:35] that begin to work on strategic problems

[00:16:39] and ideas that the organization really wants to make so.

[00:16:43] And so we're training the catalysts

[00:16:46] to see themselves so that they can recognize

[00:16:50] when they were disruptive in ways

[00:16:52] that were positive versus negative, right?

[00:16:54] The ways that we want to be.

[00:16:56] You're going to tell the people.

[00:16:58] What's that?

[00:16:59] You're going to tell the people.

[00:17:01] That time.

[00:17:03] Right. Exactly.

[00:17:05] That, you know, when you when you got angry

[00:17:07] and yelled at everyone,

[00:17:08] that probably wasn't the way to keep your job.

[00:17:12] That is hilarious.

[00:17:13] I understand why you were mad.

[00:17:14] Cracking up one time.

[00:17:16] I am the last for performance feedback.

[00:17:18] And I will never forget it was like,

[00:17:20] Jackie, you haven't given Gordon feedback in like three months.

[00:17:23] I was like,

[00:17:25] Lattice, you need to talk to Gordon.

[00:17:27] Like, I don't know why you're talking to me.

[00:17:29] That was probably not.

[00:17:33] Yeah.

[00:17:34] So then we can find these folks

[00:17:37] and we build out cohorts

[00:17:39] that also fit within the values of the organization

[00:17:42] because someone who's a catalyst

[00:17:45] won't always be a successful

[00:17:46] in one organizational climate,

[00:17:49] then they will in another.

[00:17:50] So Shannon was

[00:17:52] she's speaking about her

[00:17:53] time as executive vice president

[00:17:54] with a hundred year old Swedish company.

[00:17:57] Hundred and forty.

[00:17:59] Hundred and forty, which has a set of social norms.

[00:18:01] It has a pace that it's ready for, right?

[00:18:04] Versus someplace like Go Daddy or Microsoft

[00:18:08] where the pace and the cultural values

[00:18:10] can be really different.

[00:18:12] And so to your point, Katie,

[00:18:13] of like, how are we building community?

[00:18:15] We're building community in ways

[00:18:16] that are going to work within that organization

[00:18:19] to not only connect the catalyst

[00:18:20] but connect them to

[00:18:22] the executives and the strategy

[00:18:24] because what do catalysts want to do?

[00:18:25] They want to make change.

[00:18:28] They don't just want a leadership development program

[00:18:30] that's like, learn, you know,

[00:18:31] what your values are

[00:18:33] and what your goals are.

[00:18:34] They want to take their skills

[00:18:36] and their energy and dive in

[00:18:38] and be able to show

[00:18:40] the impact that they've made.

[00:18:42] So that's awesome.

[00:18:44] It was awesome.

[00:18:45] Yeah.

[00:18:47] So the concept like you do this assessment.

[00:18:51] What about the folks that are not catalysts?

[00:18:53] What do you do?

[00:18:53] Like what happens to them?

[00:18:56] They get promoted to guest.

[00:18:58] OK, that's me.

[00:19:01] No, OK.

[00:19:03] Yeah, she's referring to our

[00:19:05] I worked at Target for a while

[00:19:07] and that was our not appropriate

[00:19:09] in any way, shape or form.

[00:19:10] A. If you were not working out,

[00:19:13] you got to promote it to a target guest.

[00:19:14] So yeah, it worked out.

[00:19:16] So.

[00:19:16] All right.

[00:19:18] Yeah, it's a permanent phrase now for me.

[00:19:20] Anytime. Exactly.

[00:19:21] Yeah.

[00:19:21] I can't. Yeah.

[00:19:23] Within any cohort,

[00:19:26] like Shannon was talking about,

[00:19:27] there can be a spectrum of what it is to be catalytic.

[00:19:30] And so we're looking at not only

[00:19:33] where you fall on that spectrum.

[00:19:34] And so there's folks that we can say

[00:19:36] they're just not going to fit, right?

[00:19:38] They have identified that their

[00:19:40] relationship to change is not a positive one

[00:19:43] or they feel like they don't.

[00:19:44] They can't really contribute new ideas.

[00:19:46] And so there's some things that will make it

[00:19:48] that you're not going to be invited

[00:19:49] to be part of a catalyst cohort.

[00:19:51] But there's not one way, right?

[00:19:54] Like there's the range.

[00:19:55] And so we end up having beautifully diverse groups.

[00:19:59] So for those who aren't a catalyst,

[00:20:00] they don't participate in those programs.

[00:20:04] And we work with the organizations

[00:20:05] to provide training to if you think

[00:20:07] about a normal distribution curve

[00:20:09] and the catalysts are on the sharp end,

[00:20:11] you have the early adopters after

[00:20:12] and there's probably a range of people who

[00:20:14] that I mean, the beautiful thing is

[00:20:15] like for any catalyst program,

[00:20:17] you have to nominate yourself.

[00:20:20] So there's already a self-selection process there

[00:20:22] and this is different from a lot of

[00:20:24] high potential programs where it's like,

[00:20:26] did you crush your KPIs

[00:20:27] and were you good at managing up?

[00:20:28] Right?

[00:20:29] And so this is like, hey,

[00:20:31] I've been flying into the radar

[00:20:32] because the impact I drive is across

[00:20:34] the organization in silos

[00:20:35] with something that nobody had an exact sponsor for, right?

[00:20:38] So anyway, so there's a self-selection process

[00:20:40] but surely we want to also then

[00:20:42] the people who raise their hand

[00:20:43] and are interested in supporting it,

[00:20:45] we're gonna bring the same tools,

[00:20:47] the same language like the things

[00:20:48] that we're teaching catalysts are helpful for everyone.

[00:20:51] They're just essential for catalysts

[00:20:53] because we'll lose people as soon as we leave the,

[00:20:55] I got a vision on moving into action.

[00:20:58] It's really, I like that you said that

[00:21:00] but it's especially hard at startup companies.

[00:21:03] I think we say that we're a startup

[00:21:05] but I always think about various startups

[00:21:07] and it's hard when you're trying to

[00:21:09] change multiple things

[00:21:10] when you have multiple catalysts

[00:21:12] that wanna do multiple things

[00:21:13] because you have the autonomy to be able to do that.

[00:21:20] That's just what stood out.

[00:21:22] I guess, you know, never need to respond.

[00:21:24] Just a thought.

[00:21:25] Oh, we feel you as, you know,

[00:21:27] we came together officially in 2018

[00:21:29] and we have, we've been very excited

[00:21:32] the last two years.

[00:21:33] Like one of our celebrations

[00:21:35] is that we've had the same strategy for two years straight.

[00:21:40] That was a huge shock.

[00:21:42] I guess we were, our original sense of

[00:21:46] kind of our mission statement

[00:21:48] was that we give 360 degree support for catalyst

[00:21:51] because we're naming a category, right?

[00:21:53] And so we want, we love catalysts in the world

[00:21:56] and we wanna help them in all the ways.

[00:21:58] That's not a really good way to scale a business.

[00:22:02] No, I doubt it.

[00:22:03] It's our catalytic desire to serve

[00:22:06] and to really help folks

[00:22:08] that we're seeing how deep needs

[00:22:10] and often are in pain

[00:22:12] have gotten us to exactly that same issue

[00:22:14] that you're pointing to, Jackie.

[00:22:15] We feel you.

[00:22:16] Got it, okay.

[00:22:18] So you mentioned something earlier, Shannon, about,

[00:22:20] you know, the, you know, when you are raising your hand

[00:22:24] or calling something out that maybe isn't working

[00:22:27] and how sometimes that is not received

[00:22:30] or people have a perception of that

[00:22:33] because of the direct communication style

[00:22:34] or whatever that might be

[00:22:36] is part of the work that you do also

[00:22:38] just helping to manage some of those communication tools

[00:22:42] or whatever you wanna call it

[00:22:44] because, you know, to get people onto the bus

[00:22:46] that you're trying to drive

[00:22:47] to get people to come to whatever similar conclusion

[00:22:52] that you have, are those some of the tools

[00:22:54] that folks learn with this program?

[00:22:57] Yeah, totally.

[00:22:58] So there's a thing that's called the catalyst formula

[00:23:00] which is probably helpful to get out right now

[00:23:02] which is vision action iteration.

[00:23:04] This is how we move through the world

[00:23:06] and without intentionality

[00:23:08] we move through those cycles insanely fast.

[00:23:11] Like different levels of fastness as Tracy was saying

[00:23:13] but like catalyst in general

[00:23:15] are much faster than the average bear.

[00:23:18] That causes a lot of problems.

[00:23:19] So that's the name of our book,

[00:23:20] Move Fast, Brakeship, Burnout.

[00:23:21] That's our default position

[00:23:22] if we're not bringing some intentionality to our process.

[00:23:27] So the first thing we have to help them understand

[00:23:29] is like A, just the awakening

[00:23:31] that they're catalyst

[00:23:32] and the understanding the difference

[00:23:34] is like, oh I do need to treat and engage with people

[00:23:37] differently because they're not moving at my speed.

[00:23:38] They will have felt that intuitively.

[00:23:41] But then teaching them the self-awareness

[00:23:43] to know when they're losing people

[00:23:45] and when they're like moving off of vision too quickly.

[00:23:48] So a lot of what we're teaching them

[00:23:50] is to just slow down the process

[00:23:51] and giving them the tools.

[00:23:53] The communication piece,

[00:23:54] we have basically like one whole week out of six weeks

[00:23:57] and it's really more than that in the end

[00:23:59] of communication, communication, communication

[00:24:02] because it makes us, well, again,

[00:24:05] this is my thing.

[00:24:06] I was one of like poke by eye out with a stick.

[00:24:07] It's like it makes me split up so much.

[00:24:10] Like I have to say that a 10th time

[00:24:12] to the team to help them understand, but I will.

[00:24:15] The other interesting thing,

[00:24:16] the other interesting pivot

[00:24:17] that we try and help them understand though

[00:24:19] is a lot of the journey

[00:24:22] is really about more deeply listening.

[00:24:25] And so it's great to have a seat of an idea.

[00:24:28] But the first thing you need to assess is

[00:24:30] is your team organization,

[00:24:31] whatever ready for that kind of change?

[00:24:33] Like what's the organizational appetite?

[00:24:35] And so we talk about a lot of like a listening tour

[00:24:37] and then a co-creation tour.

[00:24:39] And just this week,

[00:24:40] someone in the class and group coaching was like,

[00:24:42] well I really need to figure out

[00:24:43] how to sell my manager better on my idea.

[00:24:45] And I'm like, we need to stop that language.

[00:24:49] Where's the win for your manager?

[00:24:51] How are you helping your manager?

[00:24:53] And so this is the part where we can come across

[00:24:55] as like arrogant and we're doing it in service.

[00:24:58] We feel so misunderstood.

[00:24:59] Like I just want to make the world better.

[00:25:02] But if we aren't like really paying attention to first self

[00:25:05] and then sort of that social, using our EQ,

[00:25:08] we really again, that sends us straight into burnout

[00:25:11] because we've just increased resistance in the system.

[00:25:14] Absolutely.

[00:25:15] And I would guess like you mentioned EQ

[00:25:18] and that was my other question.

[00:25:19] You know, if folks are self selecting,

[00:25:22] you would hope that they would have a little bit of,

[00:25:25] you know, awareness of themselves

[00:25:27] or you know, that kind of thing to be able to say,

[00:25:29] yes I am a catalyst that might somehow transition

[00:25:32] or translate to emotional intelligence, that type of thing.

[00:25:36] And both of you are shaking your heads no,

[00:25:38] so I'm gonna go with probably not the case.

[00:25:40] Okay.

[00:25:41] Save on.

[00:25:43] It's not, in getting to study people

[00:25:45] who are this way in the world,

[00:25:47] our emotional intelligence is really variable.

[00:25:51] When we study executives,

[00:25:53] the folks that are part of our catalyst leadership trust,

[00:25:56] this is a key area that we see difference

[00:25:59] is that they're so good at first always walking in

[00:26:03] and saying, why not?

[00:26:05] Not just why, but why not?

[00:26:08] Why isn't it like this?

[00:26:09] You know, and then they listen, listen, listen,

[00:26:13] listen, listen.

[00:26:16] Our natural instinct is to see and do.

[00:26:19] See and do as Shannon said vision act, vision act.

[00:26:23] We have to intentionally pause.

[00:26:27] And so there was a woman,

[00:26:28] that Shannon mentioned,

[00:26:29] we're teaching one of our classes right now,

[00:26:30] we teach it twice a year.

[00:26:32] And she shared, you are helping me see

[00:26:36] all the ways I've been doing it wrong.

[00:26:39] Oh.

[00:26:40] Help her feel seen and validated and not broken.

[00:26:46] And help her see that there's a way

[00:26:48] that she can be who she is, fully own it,

[00:26:51] not have to hide it and not keep breaking

[00:26:55] the relationships around her.

[00:26:57] And you're exactly right in naming it out,

[00:26:59] Katie, EQ is at the heart of that.

[00:27:05] I wish I would have met all of you about 25 years ago.

[00:27:10] But sorry, Jackie, go ahead.

[00:27:12] No, yeah, maybe 25, 30.

[00:27:15] So I'm just thinking the thing that stands out for me,

[00:27:20] and I'm wondering how,

[00:27:23] maybe it's during the assessment.

[00:27:24] I think what's standing out for me is,

[00:27:29] with people that are neurodiverse and catalysts,

[00:27:32] and there has to be a little bit of a high crossover.

[00:27:35] And I was just talking about it today.

[00:27:39] I have ADHD and it's very similar.

[00:27:42] Like when you meet somebody who,

[00:27:45] I'm not an expert, I'm not a therapist,

[00:27:47] I'm not offering any advice,

[00:27:48] but there is always like,

[00:27:49] and you're high functioning autistic

[00:27:51] in one of these whatever labels,

[00:27:53] people get mad about it,

[00:27:54] but work with me here.

[00:27:56] Then sometimes it can be confused for one of these,

[00:28:01] like I'm a catalyst kind of,

[00:28:03] I'm like, I'm a catalyst adjacent,

[00:28:06] but then there's a breaking point

[00:28:07] is at different levels.

[00:28:09] And it probably,

[00:28:11] I think I was in my 40s

[00:28:13] where someone used a different phrase that,

[00:28:16] oh, I think you're highly sensitive

[00:28:18] to these types of things.

[00:28:19] Like use that phrase.

[00:28:21] And then I was like, what?

[00:28:23] And then I was like, oh, I am highly sensitive.

[00:28:26] Did you read the highly sensitive person book?

[00:28:29] No, because that was scary.

[00:28:30] No, I wasn't trying to learn about it.

[00:28:32] I took their word,

[00:28:33] it's much easier to just take their word for it.

[00:28:35] I get it and I cried my way through it.

[00:28:37] So my husband,

[00:28:39] but it helped my husband contextualize and understand.

[00:28:42] He already supported me that way,

[00:28:44] but sort of like,

[00:28:45] I mean we often get emails from people

[00:28:47] about just how seen they feel

[00:28:48] and what a relief it is to not be broken to Tracy's point.

[00:28:51] And there's,

[00:28:52] so there was an overlap we see anecdotally

[00:28:54] with all of these different sensitivities

[00:28:55] between the neurodivergence

[00:28:57] that we were talking about for sure.

[00:28:59] It just seems to go in there.

[00:29:00] That's what I just think about.

[00:29:02] But that's part of I think

[00:29:04] what is so exciting when you meet people

[00:29:05] and think, oh, there's something wrong with me.

[00:29:09] I didn't,

[00:29:10] and I think even as you learn,

[00:29:12] it takes a really long time to realize

[00:29:14] like we are both looking at the same thing

[00:29:16] and seeing two completely different things.

[00:29:19] There's so much that goes to that,

[00:29:22] and I don't think we teach that.

[00:29:24] And that's okay.

[00:29:26] Like that is why diversity and inclusion

[00:29:28] is so important of understanding

[00:29:30] that now we can get a better picture of what it is

[00:29:33] and how we can move forward.

[00:29:35] And I think it's been such a toxic journey

[00:29:38] of what leaders look like,

[00:29:40] that people try to fit into this box

[00:29:41] and they have absolutely no idea where to go

[00:29:43] because they were like,

[00:29:44] I don't wanna do that part.

[00:29:46] Does that mean I'm not a leader?

[00:29:47] And it's like, oh, well, it depends on who you talk to,

[00:29:49] I guess, you know, and where they are.

[00:29:51] I agree.

[00:29:52] Can I ask you a question, Jackie, building on that?

[00:29:54] Cause this is something that's come up recently,

[00:29:56] which is those different perspectives,

[00:29:59] like we're looking at the same thing

[00:30:01] and there's different perspectives

[00:30:03] and maybe one is more right than the other.

[00:30:07] I don't know, like,

[00:30:09] thinking particularly in like,

[00:30:11] and trying to build inclusivity

[00:30:12] and thinking about systemic patterns that we bring in.

[00:30:16] And I'm just wondering like,

[00:30:18] do you guys have advice for how to navigate that complexity?

[00:30:22] Cause I go back to the emotional labor.

[00:30:25] It's like, am I thinking about it in every interaction

[00:30:29] or only when it starts to become problematic?

[00:30:31] Like how much, yeah.

[00:30:34] How do you guys think about that?

[00:30:35] I will tell you, the thing that saved me a lot of grief

[00:30:39] is going into is accepting other people's truth.

[00:30:43] And that's it.

[00:30:44] Makes it, you're free now.

[00:30:48] Instead of thinking, I have to fully understand exactly

[00:30:51] what it's like being, you know,

[00:30:53] little baby Kathleen Catholic girl at age 12.

[00:30:57] I have to know what that feels like,

[00:30:59] looks like, smells like in order for me to understand

[00:31:02] 45 plus year old Katie.

[00:31:05] And you don't.

[00:31:06] If I just told you this was hard,

[00:31:08] so it's like for me, that's what seems to be helping

[00:31:11] and allows us to continue moving forward

[00:31:13] and not getting stuck in the past or stuck in trauma.

[00:31:16] It's just so when someone says,

[00:31:19] I hate Texas because everybody's there is racist.

[00:31:22] And they're like, oh, okay.

[00:31:24] Now I know the lens that you're going through.

[00:31:26] So what are we gonna do moving forward?

[00:31:27] And you have to keep reminding myself,

[00:31:30] remember they think everyone here is racist.

[00:31:31] So that's the lens and we just have to keep moving forward

[00:31:35] with that.

[00:31:36] That's what has worked.

[00:31:37] What do you say, Kate?

[00:31:38] Yeah, I think it's a listening.

[00:31:40] I recently attended this extremely random luncheon.

[00:31:47] I don't even know how to describe it.

[00:31:49] And it was this gentleman who was a part of the translator

[00:31:55] slash and interrogators over in Iran.

[00:32:00] And so he has done six gazillion interviews

[00:32:04] of different people and he talks about some of these

[00:32:07] like context clues and how you put some of these things

[00:32:12] together.

[00:32:12] And so it goes to what you said,

[00:32:14] both of you said earlier about listening,

[00:32:16] but then it is also taking those tidbits

[00:32:19] and not just going, okay, yeah,

[00:32:22] it's Catherine, Catholic school girl

[00:32:25] at in fourth grade to be clear.

[00:32:28] But like taking that, okay.

[00:32:29] Oh, she grew up, she was Catholic

[00:32:31] or she went to Catholic school or okay.

[00:32:33] Well, what did that do?

[00:32:35] So taking the tidbits of something

[00:32:37] that someone's telling you to then build off of it later.

[00:32:42] And I think that's in my mind part of it

[00:32:45] is just understanding the, are you listening intentionally?

[00:32:49] Are you listening in a way that is engaging

[00:32:53] with the person?

[00:32:54] Not just like the repeating back what you heard,

[00:32:56] but truly saying you said this,

[00:32:59] what does that mean to you versus what it might mean to me

[00:33:01] versus how someone else might perceive it?

[00:33:04] So like that's, I think the listening piece,

[00:33:07] I say listening probably 600 times every episode

[00:33:11] because I think that for all of us

[00:33:13] is such a critical skill to build,

[00:33:16] but that would be my response,

[00:33:18] like just being able to listen

[00:33:20] and truly hear what people are saying.

[00:33:24] Thank you both.

[00:33:25] Yeah, of course.

[00:33:26] No, I appreciate that.

[00:33:27] I think that should be your next book

[00:33:29] or maybe me and Katie already,

[00:33:30] it's like the fallacy of empathy.

[00:33:33] So many people get that wrong.

[00:33:37] And let me tell you, my executive producer,

[00:33:39] I call my husband my executive producer.

[00:33:40] So my executive producer will say,

[00:33:45] do you want chicken artichoke pizza?

[00:33:49] I'm like, no, that's gross.

[00:33:50] He's like, well, why not?

[00:33:51] And if you're like, you don't have to worry about

[00:33:53] why not?

[00:33:55] Does it, we're just getting into an argument

[00:33:58] over something really stupid and we can't move forward.

[00:34:01] And it's the same where somebody's like,

[00:34:03] I want to make this change.

[00:34:04] Do you want to make it?

[00:34:05] No, I don't think that's a good change.

[00:34:06] Well, why?

[00:34:07] Well, now it doesn't matter.

[00:34:09] We're just not going to move forward.

[00:34:11] Now we're not going to move forward.

[00:34:12] And I hate you.

[00:34:13] When it could have just been like,

[00:34:14] oh, different, we could have moved to something adjacent

[00:34:18] because you're not accepting

[00:34:19] that this is how I feel about it.

[00:34:21] And that's okay.

[00:34:22] We don't have to feel the same way

[00:34:24] but we can still find ways that we can connect

[00:34:28] if we want to.

[00:34:29] I hear that and I'm like, I want to be that awesome Jack.

[00:34:35] Remember when I was introducing and telling my story?

[00:34:38] Like for me, the through line is like understanding people

[00:34:41] and like why does it work like that?

[00:34:44] So not being able to ask the, what?

[00:34:48] Oh, you don't like artichokes?

[00:34:49] You don't like the texture?

[00:34:50] That's what I get.

[00:34:52] Yeah.

[00:34:53] But until I have a little bit of that,

[00:34:56] it's like painful.

[00:34:58] It's like there's a book I've been reading

[00:35:00] and I don't get to read the ending.

[00:35:02] So I hear you and I'm like, can I challenge myself?

[00:35:04] And I'm like wanting to like rock in my chair,

[00:35:07] imagining just hearing all people from Texas are racist

[00:35:10] and we're just not going to touch that.

[00:35:12] I'm like, we're not.

[00:35:15] That's a fun part of bias.

[00:35:16] You can make up a different story every single day

[00:35:19] knowing that none of them are true.

[00:35:21] Yeah.

[00:35:22] You just make it up and just, you know, you'll feel better.

[00:35:24] You're not wrong, but I'm like challenging

[00:35:27] my own bodily response.

[00:35:30] I think it is a really interesting question

[00:35:32] that Tracy and I actually have never really had

[00:35:34] this conversation about which is also like,

[00:35:37] what is, I feel like there's a dial,

[00:35:39] like I'm using my pen to like make a gauge sort of thing

[00:35:42] because like maybe on the pizza, it doesn't matter.

[00:35:45] Maybe on the, you know, racism in a whole state

[00:35:47] in the country, it does matter.

[00:35:49] But so that's one metric.

[00:35:51] And then the other metric is sort of like,

[00:35:53] what capacity ultimately does that person have to change?

[00:35:57] Because they may be saying right now, I'm good.

[00:36:01] I'm never going to eat that pizza again,

[00:36:02] but there might be a place where, you know,

[00:36:05] the schools that were, the skills that we're teaching

[00:36:07] catalysts is to find where the shared value is.

[00:36:11] You know what I mean?

[00:36:11] So I don't know that I can extrapolate that

[00:36:13] to an artichoke chicken pizza,

[00:36:14] but I think there's places in change

[00:36:16] where you're just like, I'm invested.

[00:36:19] You think you can or you can't?

[00:36:20] I think you can.

[00:36:21] I think you specifically Shannon Lucas can.

[00:36:25] Yeah.

[00:36:26] But I just think about how like, I think you're right.

[00:36:29] I think we're saying the same thing.

[00:36:31] It like it feels like it to me where it's like,

[00:36:34] we just have to get to where we,

[00:36:35] where we can connect, especially at first.

[00:36:38] Yes.

[00:36:39] And what I was first nervous about

[00:36:41] when we first started talking about having conversation

[00:36:45] to me, it was like, oof,

[00:36:47] how can you get all these things together?

[00:36:49] Then I was researching and learning more.

[00:36:51] And it's like, oh, okay.

[00:36:53] So we can find the gray area

[00:36:55] and a comfort in that gray area.

[00:36:58] And I think that's what I kind of got

[00:37:01] from just the information that's online

[00:37:03] and finding out about catalysts

[00:37:06] and catalyst populations

[00:37:07] and the things that you were implementing.

[00:37:09] Cause it was like, well, you know,

[00:37:12] it's one of those things again,

[00:37:13] there's a moment where it's like,

[00:37:14] well, I feel seen, but I've never met these people.

[00:37:17] So I don't know if they saw me or why they knew,

[00:37:20] but there must be something to that.

[00:37:24] And then it's like, okay, so what does that mean?

[00:37:26] Where else are we?

[00:37:27] And of course, because I do work in it

[00:37:30] like a people function,

[00:37:31] help, yeah, I'm always thinking about the world of work

[00:37:34] and how we can make it better,

[00:37:35] make people feel,

[00:37:36] what will it take to get somebody

[00:37:38] to be able to do their best work?

[00:37:39] And can we ever?

[00:37:40] And I think for some, this might be the answer.

[00:37:43] Yeah, that's actually where I would love

[00:37:46] for us to go next.

[00:37:47] And I know we don't have a ton of time.

[00:37:48] And so I would love to say like,

[00:37:50] how do you transition or how do you take this information,

[00:37:54] pull this team or this group of individuals together

[00:37:57] and create positive change in an organization

[00:38:00] and kind of, you know, harness whatever leverage,

[00:38:04] whatever word you want to use

[00:38:05] to create that positive work environment.

[00:38:10] I'd say the top level where it all throw in

[00:38:12] and it's such a beautiful, you know,

[00:38:14] connection point across is curiosity.

[00:38:17] That rather than me, you know,

[00:38:19] I was kind of playfully with you, Jackie,

[00:38:21] saying I can't ask why,

[00:38:22] why is a hard question?

[00:38:23] Cause it really does put people on the defensive at times.

[00:38:27] But to say like, oh, that's so interesting.

[00:38:30] You know, what's up with chicken and artichoke pizza?

[00:38:34] If, you know, like if we can get to the point

[00:38:36] where we're really interested

[00:38:38] in where someone else's point of view is,

[00:38:42] that's what allows us to not just share,

[00:38:45] find the shared value as Shannon said,

[00:38:47] but to create that understanding of what is it

[00:38:50] that we all really want to be doing here?

[00:38:54] And do we have agreement on the steps

[00:38:57] that will take in the type of change we want to move in?

[00:39:00] The need for change today is no longer up for debate.

[00:39:04] Every organization on the planet constantly

[00:39:06] is in a place where change has to happen.

[00:39:08] And so the more we can help

[00:39:11] and the reason we love working with catalysts

[00:39:14] is kind of the front end.

[00:39:15] If you think about the adoption curve,

[00:39:17] they're the very early folks

[00:39:19] that have that positive relationship to change.

[00:39:22] And so we see them as the fireflies

[00:39:24] around the organization to begin to create that spark

[00:39:28] that then you can have that tipping point.

[00:39:31] And so you'd ask both of you in different moments of like,

[00:39:33] so what about the rest of them?

[00:39:35] Right?

[00:39:36] It's the infection that happens as that continues to grow.

[00:39:40] And so if you can have those people

[00:39:41] with that positive relationship to change,

[00:39:43] come in with that genuine curiosity to say,

[00:39:47] let's make it better for all of us

[00:39:49] and let's include your perspectives on what that is,

[00:39:52] especially if you're resistant,

[00:39:54] then I think that's the magic.

[00:39:59] I love that.

[00:40:00] Just that onto that,

[00:40:02] the curiosity adds a sensing capability

[00:40:05] and one of the problems we can have as a catalyst

[00:40:07] is like this idea that this is the best idea.

[00:40:10] This is the vision of the change

[00:40:11] that we have to make push through.

[00:40:13] And two things that we teach in the class,

[00:40:16] you use the word listening,

[00:40:17] we use it all the time too,

[00:40:19] expectation alignment is the other big one

[00:40:22] because it helps you navigate.

[00:40:24] It's like you have to,

[00:40:25] we tell them the best idea isn't the best idea.

[00:40:28] The best idea is the winningest idea,

[00:40:30] the one that's gonna have the chance

[00:40:31] to actually make it in this cultural context

[00:40:33] and the only way you're gonna do that,

[00:40:35] Katie, is by listening as you go along

[00:40:37] and being able to adapt.

[00:40:38] And that unlocks so much stuff in the way that Tracy,

[00:40:41] because then it becomes inclusive, right?

[00:40:44] You were teaching them that they have to bring

[00:40:46] those other people

[00:40:47] and that's where that ripple effect

[00:40:48] that Tracy was talking about comes from.

[00:40:51] Yeah, like the equivalency

[00:40:54] or like what I'm thinking about is like the folks

[00:40:57] we always think of as like our culture keepers

[00:40:59] or the folks that are able to really drive change

[00:41:03] whether they're in leadership or not.

[00:41:04] Cause that was kind of one of the other thoughts

[00:41:06] I was having is what if they're not in leadership

[00:41:08] or how does it work if they're not in leadership

[00:41:10] but they don't need to be.

[00:41:12] I mean, if they are someone that kind of has

[00:41:14] that ability to bring people along

[00:41:16] and to bring people tell the right story

[00:41:19] and have those right conversations,

[00:41:21] they can drive a ton of positive

[00:41:25] or I guess on the other,

[00:41:26] on the inverte,

[00:41:27] not so positive changes depending on what's going on

[00:41:31] but I also thinking about what is that,

[00:41:35] what are those one or two?

[00:41:37] And the whole concept of,

[00:41:40] here this is our vision,

[00:41:42] let's go do it,

[00:41:43] let's take that action,

[00:41:43] let's iterate on it.

[00:41:45] I think that's one also that so many companies

[00:41:47] could just take that alone and think about it

[00:41:50] because I think so many folks,

[00:41:53] they go, oh, here's what we decided.

[00:41:56] So we're gonna do it

[00:41:57] and even if it crashes and burns

[00:41:59] halfway through the process,

[00:42:01] oh no, but we said we're doing it

[00:42:02] so we have to still keep going this way.

[00:42:04] Like you guys were saying

[00:42:06] we have a three year plan now

[00:42:08] and I laugh because I think every organization

[00:42:12] I've been with or done consulting for

[00:42:14] in the last probably five, 10 years.

[00:42:16] I'm like that's funny because every time they're like,

[00:42:19] oh yeah, we have a three year plan

[00:42:20] and then six months later,

[00:42:21] it's a different three year plan

[00:42:22] and you're like, that's not how this works.

[00:42:25] Not how this works.

[00:42:26] Totally, we have a cohort right now

[00:42:28] where it's a 16 week activation sprint

[00:42:31] after you do the class.

[00:42:32] They're actually like working on meaningful problems.

[00:42:34] As Tracy said that the executives said

[00:42:36] were the things that they wanted them to work on

[00:42:38] and at the exact same time,

[00:42:41] the executives brought in outside consultants

[00:42:43] to work on that and they were upset.

[00:42:46] Reasonably so, they were like,

[00:42:48] you sent me on this mission.

[00:42:48] I said guys, this is what we're teaching you.

[00:42:51] What part can you take?

[00:42:53] And this happened and the program sponsors

[00:42:55] and exec sponsors all acknowledged

[00:42:56] this work was meaningfully informed

[00:42:58] because you guys were the listening mechanism

[00:43:00] for that they were never gonna get.

[00:43:03] And then it becomes this real world situation.

[00:43:05] Like it's always gonna change, Katie.

[00:43:07] Like even in a 16 week sprint,

[00:43:09] it's gonna change.

[00:43:10] Executives are gonna leave.

[00:43:11] The market's gonna switch.

[00:43:13] And so it's that adaptability

[00:43:14] and being able to still celebrate

[00:43:16] what you brought to the organization.

[00:43:20] Absolutely.

[00:43:20] Also we just have to say about the culture keeper.

[00:43:22] The other thing that we try to help people do

[00:43:24] is to make it cool and fun.

[00:43:25] So like the catalysts,

[00:43:28] you wanna be part of that movement

[00:43:30] because they're the fun kids.

[00:43:31] I love it, I love it.

[00:43:33] Right?

[00:43:34] And bling, she loves bling.

[00:43:37] I love shiny things.

[00:43:38] I love full raccoon, anything shiny.

[00:43:42] I want it, whatever it is.

[00:43:44] I love it, I love it.

[00:43:47] Okay, so first off,

[00:43:50] if a company wants to bring you all in

[00:43:52] to help with this movement,

[00:43:55] with this work and to find

[00:43:56] and identify their catalysts and lovers them,

[00:44:00] where do they go?

[00:44:00] Where do they find you all?

[00:44:02] Certainly you can go to our website,

[00:44:04] but also just feel free to ping us on LinkedIn.

[00:44:06] Okay, awesome.

[00:44:07] All right.

[00:44:08] And the last question I think we have is just,

[00:44:12] what is the one thing

[00:44:13] or what are the couple actions

[00:44:15] or the couple things that if you're an HR person,

[00:44:18] if you're a leader listening to this episode,

[00:44:20] what do you want folks

[00:44:21] to have heard from this conversation?

[00:44:24] If the catalysts were listening, you're not alone.

[00:44:27] That's, you know, you are not broken.

[00:44:30] You are not alone.

[00:44:32] To the other folks listening out there,

[00:44:35] you have untapped potential

[00:44:38] that is the key to helping you be resilient and agile

[00:44:42] in the way that every organization needs.

[00:44:45] And just because you worked with one troublemaker

[00:44:47] that was more trouble than maker

[00:44:49] doesn't mean that they weren't an amazing,

[00:44:53] amazing investment with some fine tuning.

[00:44:57] And I would just add one of our visions

[00:45:00] is to have the top hundred catalyst friendly places to work.

[00:45:05] So you're all put on notice

[00:45:07] because the companies that find those catalysts

[00:45:09] and know how to embrace them

[00:45:10] are gonna outperform all their competitors.

[00:45:12] I would bet a lot of money on that.

[00:45:14] Awesome.

[00:45:15] Jackie, what you got?

[00:45:17] I just want everybody to know you're gonna be all right.

[00:45:20] It's really, you're gonna be just fine

[00:45:23] because like it is a lot.

[00:45:26] It's wild and wooly.

[00:45:27] It's already like changed.

[00:45:29] Now you're changing the way that we're making change.

[00:45:31] I know that's a lot of change for some people

[00:45:34] and I just want everybody to know

[00:45:35] you're gonna be fine.

[00:45:36] Everybody's gonna be just fine.

[00:45:38] You're gonna make it.

[00:45:39] I like that.

[00:45:40] I will say one of the things

[00:45:42] that I am gonna take away from this episode

[00:45:45] is I'm like a raccoon.

[00:45:47] I like the bling.

[00:45:48] So that is one I think all of us cherish, Jackie.

[00:45:52] So I appreciate you sharing that with us.

[00:45:54] One time if you ever have cocktails

[00:45:56] I'll teach you how to make a raccoon trap

[00:45:59] and it'll be all more clear.

[00:46:01] Only in Waco baby, only in Waco.

[00:46:03] Only in Waco, only in Waco.

[00:46:07] But I think that the piece for me

[00:46:09] or there were quite a few nuggets here

[00:46:11] but I think one of them that really stood out was

[00:46:14] being able to identify these folks

[00:46:17] and realize that helping them with the storytelling,

[00:46:21] with giving them the right tools

[00:46:23] to actually be able to deliver and drive change.

[00:46:26] And like you said Tracy, change is everywhere.

[00:46:30] This is not a new thing.

[00:46:31] And I always joke when people are talking

[00:46:33] about change management.

[00:46:34] I'm like oh you mean business as usual?

[00:46:36] Like it's just this is how we do this now.

[00:46:39] And so thinking about it of how you leverage

[00:46:42] and how you pull that energy

[00:46:45] and that insight and that intelligence together

[00:46:49] to be able to just rock the world.

[00:46:50] I love Shannon, I want you to come back with the research.

[00:46:54] After you've done the research, come back

[00:46:56] and tell us about the results from companies

[00:46:58] that are using this and how they are doing

[00:47:01] on different measurements.

[00:47:03] Cause I think you're spot on.

[00:47:05] If you can get folks aligned

[00:47:07] and hey this is what we can do

[00:47:09] and how much further we can push.

[00:47:12] And I think it is aligned so much to diversity

[00:47:14] because this is where we bring in those new ideas,

[00:47:18] those fresh ideas, those scary ideas

[00:47:21] and really make changes to companies that are big.

[00:47:26] The whole concept of the big, harry audacious goals.

[00:47:29] Like that is what this group can do.

[00:47:32] So awesome.

[00:47:33] So Shannon, Tracy thank you both so much

[00:47:36] for joining us today.

[00:47:38] So much, so fun.

[00:47:39] Yes, yes and thank you so much.

[00:47:42] So folks you don't know this

[00:47:44] but we have had to work hard

[00:47:46] to make this episode happen

[00:47:49] cause all of us have been going

[00:47:50] in 20 different directions, all four of us.

[00:47:52] So glad that we finally were able to connect

[00:47:54] and record this and we definitely need to stay in touch.

[00:47:59] So this is Katie Van Horn.

[00:48:01] And this is Jackie Clicton.

[00:48:04] Bye.

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