[00:00:00] You're listening to Inclusive AF with Jackie Clayton and Katie Van Horn.
[00:00:07] Hi Jackie. Hi Katie, how are you doing?
[00:00:13] You know, we're recording this on a Monday. I couldn't be better on Super Bowl Monday.
[00:00:19] Because Taylor won. Taylor won the Super Bowl.
[00:00:24] Taylor was the biggest winner.
[00:00:26] Yes she was.
[00:00:27] Actually Ice Spice was the biggest winner because
[00:00:30] Taylor won the Super Bowl.
[00:00:32] That's true.
[00:00:33] Lots of people didn't know about Ice Spice.
[00:00:36] They knew about Taylor.
[00:00:37] Ice Spice was the biggest winner of the night.
[00:00:39] That is true.
[00:00:40] And actually Lana Del Rey got some good love too.
[00:00:43] So yeah, it was all around.
[00:00:45] And then I did see something which actually kind of made me sad.
[00:00:48] So what is the guy's name?
[00:00:50] The performer in Las Vegas that is like dark hair singer.
[00:00:54] He's been around forever.
[00:00:55] Wayne Newton.
[00:00:56] I was like, I'm like Instagram or Tik Tok.
[00:00:58] There was like, oh, all the celebrities at the Super Bowl and they said that
[00:01:01] they identified him as like some random person.
[00:01:05] And I'm like, no, that's Wayne Newton.
[00:01:07] Like how?
[00:01:08] I didn't make me sad for him.
[00:01:09] I was like, the guy's been around forever.
[00:01:11] But you know, Alas, what are you going to do?
[00:01:14] This is the Inclusive AF podcast.
[00:01:18] And we have a guest with us today that would like to have a great
[00:01:24] conversation with.
[00:01:25] We're going to have a great conversation with.
[00:01:27] So Rolando Talbot, I'm going to turn it over to you to introduce yourself
[00:01:30] and share a little bit about who you are.
[00:01:32] Awesome.
[00:01:33] Well, thank you so much for having me here.
[00:01:35] I'm a big fan of listening to you all for a while.
[00:01:38] And I do appreciate, I've done these type of things before.
[00:01:41] And it's always very sort of hoity-toity and kind of,
[00:01:44] I just, I appreciate the dialogue and the conversation without all the
[00:01:47] pretense.
[00:01:48] So thank you for having me here and looking forward to our conversation.
[00:01:52] And I'm going to turn it over to you.
[00:01:54] Thank you.
[00:01:55] As I call it, it's my, my origin story.
[00:01:58] So I'm a Southern California native.
[00:02:01] And grew up in the LA area.
[00:02:04] And for me, went to college out here.
[00:02:07] I joined the military and joined the Air Force.
[00:02:10] Right out of college.
[00:02:12] And as I started my career and sort of progressing my career is
[00:02:16] really where this sort of intersection of DEI and the work that I do
[00:02:20] is really, really, really important.
[00:02:22] And I started to get these tables of all these, you know,
[00:02:25] very important people and generals and all that type of stuff as a
[00:02:28] young officer.
[00:02:29] I look around and I wouldn't see anybody who looked like me.
[00:02:32] And I began to realize that in these conversations,
[00:02:35] we were making decisions,
[00:02:36] oftentimes life and death decisions about people who did look
[00:02:39] like me.
[00:02:40] And I got really just interested in like, how does that happen?
[00:02:43] Like, how do I end up in this room?
[00:02:45] Like what did I do to get here?
[00:02:48] And like, why is it that I'm the only person here?
[00:02:50] And then why is it that there isn't this sense of representation?
[00:02:54] Although I didn't know.
[00:02:56] That's what it was at the time.
[00:02:58] But just like, why, why was this not sitting well in my soul?
[00:03:01] Like what was this?
[00:03:02] How did it happen both historically and systemically?
[00:03:05] And so when I left the military,
[00:03:08] it was really just this intense desire to want to understand
[00:03:12] that a lot better and create situations or environments and
[00:03:17] where that wasn't the case.
[00:03:19] Because I know that going through the military,
[00:03:21] I had a very traumatic experience being those only people and
[00:03:24] having to speak up and sort of advocate for others in a way
[00:03:28] where I didn't necessarily have the power,
[00:03:30] nor really the voice that I do today to have that.
[00:03:33] And so that's really what kind of just,
[00:03:35] I'd say catapulted me into the DEI space was just really
[00:03:38] getting interested in how to make that type of change.
[00:03:42] And so as, as I joined different corporations and did different
[00:03:47] roles, that's really just how my career sort of progressed.
[00:03:51] And you know, in increasing roles and having this type of
[00:03:56] responsibility.
[00:03:57] So the point where I met now,
[00:03:59] I'm in a large entertainment company leading the diversity,
[00:04:02] equity and inclusion efforts of the organization.
[00:04:05] And that's really my focus is how to create these spaces
[00:04:11] of inclusivity, of belonging,
[00:04:14] bring voices to the table.
[00:04:17] I often say, and it's not my quote, but I love saying it is,
[00:04:20] you know, if you don't have a,
[00:04:21] if you're not at the table, then you're on the menu.
[00:04:23] And so it's really how do I get people off that menu and to
[00:04:26] the table so that we can do this work together.
[00:04:29] And then along with that, I mean, I really do,
[00:04:31] I'm sort of a believer in this is not just a job,
[00:04:35] it's lifestyle.
[00:04:36] And so I do a lot of this work in my community from a volunteer
[00:04:41] aspect, whether it's through our educational equity efforts.
[00:04:47] I work with our police in my local city and policing equity.
[00:04:52] Gosh, it's a lot of stuff, not nonprofit type stuff that I do,
[00:04:57] but really my current interest right now,
[00:04:59] my current focus in my work is really this desire to bring
[00:05:04] a lot of intersectionality into the work that I do.
[00:05:07] So we're in the middle of Black History Month.
[00:05:09] You know, it feels like we've got 29 days to cram in all the
[00:05:12] great things about Black people,
[00:05:14] but really looking at more of a 365 year long strategy,
[00:05:19] but also that intersectionality to say that, hey,
[00:05:21] there are, you know, how do we put the lens on Black women?
[00:05:25] How do we put the lens on Black neurodiverse individuals?
[00:05:28] How do we put the lens on different pockets of the
[00:05:31] community that don't often get that spotlight shown on them
[00:05:36] and doing that across all dimensions of identity?
[00:05:39] So really interested into that right now.
[00:05:41] I'm a technologist by background,
[00:05:43] so really looking at the intersection of DEI and technology.
[00:05:48] So really interested in immersive technologies when it comes to
[00:05:51] DEI is something that I'm really kind of into.
[00:05:55] And then also looking at trauma-informed workplaces
[00:05:59] and how do we sort of take the workplace as we know it today,
[00:06:03] make it more trauma-informed and looking at the impact that that has
[00:06:07] on the different communities.
[00:06:09] And doing all of that and trying to tie it to the business
[00:06:13] and you know, and all the fun things that capitalism has in
[00:06:17] store for us.
[00:06:18] But other than that, I'm married.
[00:06:21] I have two kids.
[00:06:24] They've been married to my wife for over 20 years now
[00:06:28] and she works as an attorney in our area.
[00:06:32] And two kids that are just amazing.
[00:06:34] I've got a 15-year-old daughter.
[00:06:36] So we're just getting to that, like talking about college
[00:06:39] and like, okay, trying to map out where we're going to go
[00:06:42] and you know, visiting things like that.
[00:06:44] And then I've got a 10-year-old son who's amazing.
[00:06:47] He's testing for his black belt and tight pondo
[00:06:49] in a couple of weeks.
[00:06:50] I'm just really super excited about that.
[00:06:53] And yeah, and other than that, you know,
[00:06:55] I'm just trying to live life the best way I can.
[00:06:58] Just trying to get through it.
[00:07:00] Trying to get through it.
[00:07:01] Day by day.
[00:07:02] You know, I love that every time we have a guest on,
[00:07:04] it just makes me feel like I'm the laziest human on the planet
[00:07:07] because all of our guests are like, and I'm also doing,
[00:07:10] and I'm also thinking about you too, Katie, actually.
[00:07:13] You know, they make me think you are the laziest person
[00:07:17] every time.
[00:07:19] No, stop.
[00:07:20] Are you kidding?
[00:07:21] No.
[00:07:22] And you forgot to mention,
[00:07:23] you're also a published author of a children's book.
[00:07:27] Yeah.
[00:07:28] Why was that not like one of the first three things?
[00:07:32] Yeah.
[00:07:33] It's on the resume.
[00:07:36] I don't know.
[00:07:37] We're going to rewrite your bio right now.
[00:07:39] That's what we'll do for the rest of this podcast.
[00:07:41] But before that,
[00:07:45] I had some questions.
[00:07:47] Oh, I was taking notes.
[00:07:49] I'm sorry.
[00:07:50] I was just taking notes.
[00:07:51] I'm just taking notes.
[00:07:52] I was taking notes.
[00:07:53] I'm just taking notes.
[00:07:54] I'm just taking notes.
[00:07:55] We're going to go all the way back.
[00:07:57] Why did you join the Air Force?
[00:07:58] Yeah.
[00:08:03] So that's it.
[00:08:04] I was sort of, as I say,
[00:08:05] vol untold I'm a third generation Air Force members.
[00:08:08] I was in Vietnam and my grandfather is in Korea
[00:08:10] all in the Air Force.
[00:08:11] And so it was one of those things where.
[00:08:13] You know, it was like, Oh, this is the family legacy.
[00:08:16] It was like, you know,
[00:08:18] I was in the military and I was a military officer.
[00:08:25] You know,
[00:08:26] it wasn't the easiest time being in the military in my particular
[00:08:29] generation. And so when I look back at my, you know,
[00:08:31] not that it was easy for my father and my grandfather either.
[00:08:33] Cause my grandfather went through segregation and my father did
[00:08:35] as well.
[00:08:36] But it was more sort of like, can't.
[00:08:39] I mean,
[00:08:40] I'm not sure if I can figure out how to get out and retire and figure
[00:08:43] out something else or can I start that? You know,
[00:08:45] my own legacy right? My own chapter and story.
[00:08:47] As well. So, you know,
[00:08:49] it was one of those where I just had been ingrained in that
[00:08:52] culture is the only thing I knew quite honestly, if I'm being
[00:08:55] be honest, I don't, that's all I knew.
[00:08:57] Was serving.
[00:08:58] And while I don't.
[00:09:00] Discount what I've learned and who,
[00:09:02] and it's made me who I am today.
[00:09:04] A lot of the other work that I do is really helping those
[00:09:07] people who have acted duty really understand the corporate role
[00:09:10] that they're walking into and really help prepare them for
[00:09:13] whatever that next chapter is in their lives.
[00:09:15] So.
[00:09:16] I can appreciate that. I was just really curious because
[00:09:19] especially it was after college,
[00:09:21] it wasn't like during or before and you hear about that.
[00:09:24] And sometimes that happens and sometimes it doesn't.
[00:09:27] So I was really curious about that.
[00:09:30] And I'm glad that you brought up and this is now I'm
[00:09:33] jumping all the way in the other direction because it
[00:09:36] is.
[00:09:37] I was so glad to hear about trauma informed.
[00:09:40] The idea of being like it is black history month.
[00:09:43] And.
[00:09:44] I don't think organizations know how traumatic.
[00:09:47] That is for a lot of black people.
[00:09:50] Like, I don't want to.
[00:09:52] I'm not doing your stuff.
[00:09:53] I'm not going to participate with you.
[00:09:55] Like if you don't handle it in a certain way or it just
[00:09:58] seems like.
[00:09:59] Just.
[00:10:00] We all.
[00:10:01] I don't know what to say.
[00:10:04] Just.
[00:10:05] We all all black kids have the same story about when you
[00:10:08] talked about slavery and history and you know,
[00:10:11] you have this.
[00:10:12] That alone causes trauma and people don't realize,
[00:10:16] especially if you're not a member of a particular group,
[00:10:19] those of us, you know, we're learning second hand,
[00:10:21] third hand, trying to get all these things together.
[00:10:24] And so the intersectionality piece.
[00:10:26] Is great, but I appreciated you sharing that and just
[00:10:30] wanted to make note of that.
[00:10:32] I know, I know.
[00:10:33] I appreciate it. Absolutely.
[00:10:35] And that's the challenge with it is because it is not widely
[00:10:39] recognized what we find and I can speak from my own
[00:10:42] personal experiences.
[00:10:44] Oftentimes we're forced to have to relive that trauma to
[00:10:47] help inform others of that trauma because you're not in
[00:10:50] it. You don't know.
[00:10:51] You don't know me having to recount my entire lineage to
[00:10:55] prove, you know, my blackness this month is,
[00:10:59] is trauma. It's causing trauma.
[00:11:01] And so I'm going to do it with a smile,
[00:11:03] but you're never going to know that. Right?
[00:11:05] And so it's, it's how do we, how do we stop that?
[00:11:08] How do we inform and stop that and make the place better?
[00:11:11] But yeah.
[00:11:12] I agree with that.
[00:11:13] And I always say I'm not going to sell my soul out for
[00:11:16] your aha moment.
[00:11:17] I refuse.
[00:11:18] I don't share any of those personal things except for
[00:11:21] with my therapist.
[00:11:22] Like those are things that I am going to reserve for
[00:11:25] my own healing, not your education.
[00:11:27] And the, the it is so important that we can learn from
[00:11:32] all, all of us, but we did a presentation today for
[00:11:36] Black History Month and learned more in that hour than
[00:11:39] any of the education that we had.
[00:11:41] There's so many things.
[00:11:43] And this is just one month and we're looking at one
[00:11:46] particular group.
[00:11:47] There's so much to learn.
[00:11:49] I wanted to ask through the, your history of all of
[00:11:52] these different roles.
[00:11:55] Has there ever been a common thread that you think you've
[00:11:58] had to go over in each new location kind of from scratch?
[00:12:01] Like, okay, here's the list of things I do.
[00:12:04] Here's the list of things I don't do.
[00:12:06] Here's the list of things we're not going to do.
[00:12:09] Those are all, you know.
[00:12:11] Yeah, absolutely.
[00:12:12] And I'll tell you the ironic piece about that is that
[00:12:15] at least in my, in my history, I don't know that
[00:12:18] I've ever really lasted that long to get through that arc.
[00:12:21] Right. Because I think you, for me, it was very, as I started
[00:12:25] getting more into this work and learning my own sort of
[00:12:28] boundaries and kind of what I will and won't do.
[00:12:31] A lot of it was understanding where the organization
[00:12:34] was at and how much sort of emotional labor I was going
[00:12:37] to have to put in because oftentimes I was one of one or
[00:12:40] one of a few doing this work.
[00:12:42] And it was really sort of like, okay, where are we at?
[00:12:45] So one of the current themes that I even see today in
[00:12:49] the work that I do is really like, hey, can we just all get on
[00:12:52] the same page as to what diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging
[00:12:56] to, like, can we just all agree on what these things mean?
[00:13:00] Because oftentimes I've found throughout the course of my
[00:13:03] career, you know, I'll speak to a leader and they'll go,
[00:13:06] oh my God, we are so diverse.
[00:13:08] I don't even know why you're here.
[00:13:10] And I'm like, okay, tell me more about it.
[00:13:12] Well, we've got her and him.
[00:13:14] And it's like, you know, and it's like, okay, like let's
[00:13:17] dial it back a little bit.
[00:13:18] Let's have these conversations about what this means or, you know,
[00:13:22] yeah, hey, I'm in, I'm inclusive, you know, I make sure everybody's
[00:13:26] invited to the meetings and it's like, that's not what
[00:13:28] that means, right?
[00:13:29] And so I think a lot of what I'm very interested,
[00:13:32] especially in entering new organizations as one is what's
[00:13:35] the propensity for change?
[00:13:37] Like, are they really, really about this change?
[00:13:39] Or is it just like, where is it coming from?
[00:13:41] And then, you know, there's different ways to sort of
[00:13:44] understand where the truth lies.
[00:13:46] But then it's also, it's like, hey, can we level set here for a
[00:13:49] second and get on the same page as to what this means and
[00:13:52] really build that foundation of here's where these terms mean,
[00:13:56] here's how it shows up, here's how it affects the business
[00:13:59] and then building on top of it.
[00:14:01] So I'd say probably throughout the course of my career doing
[00:14:04] this now close to 20 years, that has always been fundamental
[00:14:07] is I have yet to go into an organization that truly
[00:14:11] understands what these things mean and are looking at it from
[00:14:15] a more systemic change perspective as opposed to,
[00:14:19] well, hey, my competition is doing it.
[00:14:21] So I, you know, or, you know, we're in a moment post George
[00:14:25] Floyd everybody's doing it.
[00:14:26] You know, I've got to do it or whatever that is.
[00:14:28] And so, you know, usually when I get to that point where
[00:14:32] I'm like, oh, you sound it, you said all the right
[00:14:35] things, but now I'm not seeing the money there or I'm
[00:14:37] not seeing the leadership commitment there.
[00:14:39] You know, it's kind of it's that decision matrix, right?
[00:14:42] It's like, do I continue in this work or is it or have I hit
[00:14:45] my guard rails and you're not really interested in continuing
[00:14:48] this journey with me and I got to move on.
[00:14:50] So that's usually how it's coming out.
[00:14:54] Yeah, I love what you just said about just defining what
[00:14:57] does diversity, equity inclusion mean because I think
[00:15:00] there's also the whole layer in the political pieces of
[00:15:05] it and then also the complete misinformation that people
[00:15:08] are getting and how this topic has been politicized in
[00:15:12] such a way that it's like, no, that's not what it means.
[00:15:15] And no, that's not what anyone is trying to do.
[00:15:17] So just the fact that, you know, it is that going back
[00:15:20] to the very basic of what are we actually talking
[00:15:23] about here?
[00:15:24] What are we actually trying to, how are we trying
[00:15:27] to define these things?
[00:15:28] Because I think that is such a basic tenant of this
[00:15:30] work, but I don't think folks sometimes stop to do
[00:15:34] that and getting on the same page is such a critical
[00:15:37] thing.
[00:15:38] So I love that you call that out.
[00:15:40] Absolutely.
[00:15:41] And I think that's part of the challenge too is I meet
[00:15:43] some really well intentioned folks who are like, hey,
[00:15:46] yes, I get it.
[00:15:47] I want to do this.
[00:15:48] And they're doing so many things and it's hard to say,
[00:15:52] okay, let's reel that back in a little bit and let's talk
[00:15:54] about really what the impact is here.
[00:15:56] What are you trying to do?
[00:15:57] Are you causing more harm and you're all those type
[00:16:00] of things.
[00:16:01] And that's a tough conversation to have, especially for
[00:16:03] those who are super motivated in this work to
[00:16:06] say like, hey, let's take a moment out.
[00:16:08] Let's reeducate ourselves on this.
[00:16:10] Let's get on the same page and then let's move forward.
[00:16:13] And oftentimes that there's a lot of resistance to that,
[00:16:16] whether it's the naming of just DEI in general and
[00:16:21] feeling sticky and icky as it is now to just doing
[00:16:25] the work and just how are we funded?
[00:16:28] Where are we putting our money?
[00:16:29] All that stuff is what I spend most of my time
[00:16:32] having conversations on.
[00:16:34] And I'm not sure what it feels like.
[00:16:36] Yeah.
[00:16:37] Jackie's in Texas and I'm in Arizona.
[00:16:39] So we can completely appreciate.
[00:16:41] Unfortunately.
[00:16:42] Yeah.
[00:16:43] I think, you know, and one of the things that it's like
[00:16:47] saying there's people that are well-intentioned,
[00:16:49] but I always feel it's like diet where it's like, you know,
[00:16:52] I had sugar snap peas for dinner last night.
[00:16:54] I'm healthy.
[00:16:55] Like that's all I have to do.
[00:16:57] I walked to the mailbox.
[00:16:58] I exercise.
[00:16:59] And then when you get down to it,
[00:17:01] like, do you want to make a life change or do you want to
[00:17:04] make this investment or two different things?
[00:17:07] And some people do have that pushback.
[00:17:10] But I think a lot of it has to do with people have it
[00:17:14] broken down, not just the definition of diversity,
[00:17:17] but it's like what is what is inequitable right now?
[00:17:21] Where do people not feel like they belong?
[00:17:23] They don't take all of the other initials.
[00:17:25] Like let's just look at another initial today.
[00:17:27] Let's see where we're at and putting all those things
[00:17:30] together.
[00:17:31] And but you're right.
[00:17:33] It's like people are all over the place.
[00:17:35] They're in a different place in their journey.
[00:17:37] And I haven't met one organization that had a
[00:17:40] propensity for change.
[00:17:42] I mean, like even like we're going to change the
[00:17:44] corporate font.
[00:17:45] Like people fall out when they're like, don't use
[00:17:48] comic sans.
[00:17:49] Like people will literally die on that hill.
[00:17:52] But also don't use comic sans just so we're all on
[00:17:55] the same page.
[00:17:56] Perfect.
[00:17:57] Perfect.
[00:17:58] Perfect.
[00:17:59] Yeah.
[00:18:00] You know, and so that's where I sort of like that
[00:18:03] challenge in a lot of ways unless it becomes, you
[00:18:06] know, untenable.
[00:18:07] But I like that challenge.
[00:18:08] And that's where I sort of leverage my own sort of
[00:18:10] intersectionalities to sort of, you know, bring
[00:18:12] different approaches, bring different strategies to
[00:18:15] it to get folks to understand, you know, that yes,
[00:18:18] there's this business case for DEI, but then there's
[00:18:21] also this morality case for DEI.
[00:18:23] And it's it's if you say who you say you are.
[00:18:27] If you really do mean that, then this is just another
[00:18:30] piece of it.
[00:18:31] This isn't something that that is meant to, you
[00:18:35] know, change you in a fundamental way that you are
[00:18:38] no longer recognizable to yourself.
[00:18:40] This is this is who you say you are.
[00:18:42] So let's put your money where your mouth is.
[00:18:44] And so it's usually when I'm when I'm trying to
[00:18:47] approach things from that sort of perspective that
[00:18:50] oftentimes for some leaders, there's this aha
[00:18:53] moment and it's like, oh, okay, you're not
[00:18:56] trying to whatever put a bunch of women in
[00:18:59] leadership positions because it looks right.
[00:19:01] It's like, no, this is actually here's the case
[00:19:04] study. Here's the data.
[00:19:05] Here's how we're going to do it.
[00:19:07] This is what you're talking about and all the
[00:19:09] materials that you put out there to clients.
[00:19:11] This is what makes sense.
[00:19:13] Let's move forward and let's get this done.
[00:19:15] And so there seems to be some success when
[00:19:18] you approach it that way.
[00:19:19] But but I think to your earlier point, yeah,
[00:19:21] you know, there's there's no organization that
[00:19:24] you know, if it ain't broke, you know, why are
[00:19:26] we trying to fix it?
[00:19:27] Right. If we're making profits and we're able
[00:19:29] to lay off people and keep revenue up high
[00:19:31] and keep stockholders happy, why are we going
[00:19:33] to, you know, put together a more inclusive
[00:19:36] hiring strategy? Like why would we do that?
[00:19:38] Right?
[00:19:39] Imagine how fast we could solve the world's
[00:19:44] biggest problems if more SaaS startups would
[00:19:46] gain traction sooner.
[00:19:48] Welcome to the Tech Entrepreneur on the
[00:19:50] Mission podcast.
[00:19:51] This podcast is dedicated to sharing
[00:19:53] experiences from B2B SaaS CEOs who are
[00:19:56] going above and beyond to deliver chains
[00:19:58] that is noticed.
[00:19:59] You will hear their secrets and learn
[00:20:01] what is required to build a SaaS business
[00:20:04] that the world starts talking about
[00:20:06] and keeps talking about and how to
[00:20:08] overcome the roadblocks to do so.
[00:20:10] I think that's the piece that always
[00:20:14] is interesting when I'm working with
[00:20:16] organizations is that exact thing of
[00:20:18] like helping them to understand and I
[00:20:22] won't call it a business case because
[00:20:23] it is that but it isn't that.
[00:20:25] It's more just the like informing them
[00:20:27] of what are the business reasons why this
[00:20:30] is important but also to your point
[00:20:32] it's again it's not about I'm going
[00:20:34] to change who you are or your belief
[00:20:36] system.
[00:20:37] I'm going to change the behaviors that
[00:20:38] you have while you're at work and
[00:20:40] I think that's another piece that
[00:20:41] people get very stuck on is oh,
[00:20:43] you're trying to, you know, make me
[00:20:46] vote a certain way or make me believe
[00:20:48] a certain thing and it's like no,
[00:20:50] these are just how we're going to
[00:20:51] work together, how we're going to
[00:20:53] actually achieve things but I think it
[00:20:55] also goes back to the earlier point of
[00:20:57] this informed trauma and like how you
[00:21:00] actually deal with that and focus on
[00:21:02] that in such a way that people
[00:21:04] understand.
[00:21:05] For example, the black history month
[00:21:07] that you just mentioned, how does
[00:21:09] that actually impact all of your
[00:21:11] employees that identifies
[00:21:13] black?
[00:21:14] How does that or anyone that
[00:21:16] identifies as a person of color
[00:21:18] because there are those stories
[00:21:20] pretty much within every culture
[00:21:22] that they can say oh yes,
[00:21:24] I was also traumatized, you know,
[00:21:26] or I come from a country
[00:21:28] that was colonized by the British or
[00:21:30] whatever it might be and so you have
[00:21:32] just these
[00:21:34] traumas that come up all the time
[00:21:36] and it is how do we
[00:21:38] define these things, how do we think
[00:21:40] about the moral application of them
[00:21:42] and then also how do we start to
[00:21:44] build a space that is, we aren't
[00:21:46] just saying is inclusive, we aren't
[00:21:48] just saying that we have a
[00:21:50] connection to these boxes, but
[00:21:52] truly is.
[00:21:54] So I think that's just another piece
[00:21:56] that comes up all the time, but
[00:21:58] I don't think people understand all
[00:22:00] of the different nuances that come
[00:22:02] into play when you say hey, we need
[00:22:04] to do this because it's the right
[00:22:06] thing to do for the business or
[00:22:08] for any reason.
[00:22:09] No, absolutely and I guess going
[00:22:11] back to the books, I totally
[00:22:13] forgot to mention the books, but
[00:22:15] that was kind of the reason why
[00:22:17] I came up with this.
[00:22:19] I come from a multicultural, multi-
[00:22:21] ethnic background and that's reflected
[00:22:23] in my family so it was really this
[00:22:25] intention to say hey, this new
[00:22:27] generation, what are we calling them
[00:22:29] alphas now or whatever this newest
[00:22:31] generation is, you know, it sounds
[00:22:33] cheesy but they're going to take this
[00:22:35] work forward and what we realize
[00:22:37] when we look at technology and we
[00:22:39] look at sort of the connectedness
[00:22:41] there, this new generation is more
[00:22:43] technologically advanced and
[00:22:45] it's a little bit more
[00:22:47] complicated than the previous
[00:22:49] generation was in the ones before
[00:22:51] and why can't that be the same in
[00:22:53] this space, right, is why can't
[00:22:55] my children who are growing up
[00:22:57] already be equity minded.
[00:22:59] They don't have to be taught this
[00:23:01] later in corporate life, right, they're
[00:23:03] just going to grow up with this
[00:23:05] equity minded sort of sense of
[00:23:07] self and that was really the
[00:23:09] impetus of sort of writing the
[00:23:11] book was like hey, there's all
[00:23:13] the things that we need to do
[00:23:15] and so is everybody else and it was
[00:23:17] really just an exploration in that
[00:23:19] and then as my daughter got older
[00:23:21] and she started to experience
[00:23:23] microaggressions in school, I was
[00:23:25] like oh, we need something for her
[00:23:27] age, we need something for that area
[00:23:29] to understand here's what we go
[00:23:31] through that may seem very subtle
[00:23:33] but again causes trauma
[00:23:35] and how do we change that and so
[00:23:37] I wrote a book specifically around
[00:23:39] microaggressions for sort of
[00:23:41] the purpose that by the time my
[00:23:43] children and that generation get to
[00:23:45] where I'm at now, hopefully
[00:23:47] we have made some changes
[00:23:49] and it is more of a
[00:23:53] sort of ubiquitous sense if you will
[00:23:55] of equity in these type of things
[00:23:57] because they grew up hearing that
[00:23:59] from the stars so that's the whole
[00:24:01] idea behind the books.
[00:24:03] Well, I mean and in talking about
[00:24:05] that, like
[00:24:07] it is
[00:24:09] my kids are older than your kids, my kids
[00:24:11] are about to be
[00:24:13] 22 and 24
[00:24:15] I don't even know when that
[00:24:17] happened but there wasn't a lot
[00:24:19] of books for them and then
[00:24:21] I ended up giving them books
[00:24:23] later. One was for my oldest
[00:24:25] that was like big hair don't care because
[00:24:27] my oldest has the biggest hair you've ever
[00:24:29] seen, it's just big and they used to
[00:24:31] like not
[00:24:33] want anybody to see it
[00:24:35] and they didn't have those kids books
[00:24:37] and then there was another one for my son
[00:24:39] my son was born and
[00:24:41] he just is unique looking
[00:24:43] and was just
[00:24:45] compare themselves to other people but the fact of the matter
[00:24:47] is that
[00:24:49] especially if you're not teaching these things in schools
[00:24:51] people like conveniently
[00:24:53] forget that the whole
[00:24:55] reason why we started seeing more black
[00:24:57] history in schools was
[00:24:59] and why they
[00:25:01] desegregated schools when you look at Brown
[00:25:03] versus Board of Education had to do
[00:25:05] with the psychological study that kids
[00:25:07] that were asked
[00:25:09] the doll test, which
[00:25:11] one's the better doll? Is it the black one or the
[00:25:13] white one and they realized that we weren't giving
[00:25:15] people these opportunities to see
[00:25:17] success from their own race and culture
[00:25:19] now we're going back to that and the trauma
[00:25:21] that the
[00:25:23] overall impact
[00:25:25] that people like to turn away from
[00:25:27] is from just not learning
[00:25:29] your basic history and
[00:25:31] you know
[00:25:33] it would be great if we could pick every
[00:25:35] day to be you know black history month
[00:25:37] or you know black history
[00:25:39] day and we have all these things but
[00:25:41] what it should remind people
[00:25:43] is that
[00:25:45] we are not getting everything from our
[00:25:47] from our education and we're going to have
[00:25:49] to do the work ourselves
[00:25:51] and just going in like all of us
[00:25:53] that are DEI practitioners have to go in with
[00:25:55] the mindset that I don't know everything
[00:25:57] and I want to keep learning
[00:25:59] from you I want to learn
[00:26:01] and learn as much as I can
[00:26:03] to take that attitude because it's
[00:26:05] not like teaching someone
[00:26:07] how to use Excel
[00:26:09] right where it's like okay
[00:26:11] this is a pivot table and this is a this
[00:26:13] and now you're done and you can get your certification
[00:26:15] it's not like that it's very nuanced
[00:26:17] and so
[00:26:19] you bring a lot to the table when
[00:26:21] you're you've talked about the intersectionality
[00:26:23] and you know
[00:26:25] people with multiple cultural backgrounds
[00:26:27] within the books I'm so glad it's going to
[00:26:29] take more of those types
[00:26:31] of books that children can read because
[00:26:33] they're not getting it the education in school
[00:26:35] so I love and you know
[00:26:37] that's part of the reason why I do what I do
[00:26:39] in my community as well because
[00:26:41] I've also recognized you know there's people
[00:26:43] that are well versed in this type of work
[00:26:45] but they're
[00:26:47] they're labor only goes to corporations
[00:26:49] or labor only goes to those
[00:26:51] areas that aren't really going
[00:26:53] to make that change that we're talking
[00:26:55] about and so it's that recognition
[00:26:57] that hey we need those in our school districts
[00:26:59] we need those in our police force
[00:27:01] we need those in our communities
[00:27:03] we need that level of skill
[00:27:05] there as well
[00:27:07] I can't be everywhere and it's not that great
[00:27:09] on my mental health but you know I'm doing what I can
[00:27:11] to be where I can
[00:27:13] but that you're absolutely right is it's
[00:27:15] that's what it's going to take to sort of combat
[00:27:17] this
[00:27:19] trend of sort of reeling all this stuff
[00:27:21] back and you know it's just funny you bring up
[00:27:23] the you know desegregation
[00:27:25] because right it wasn't that long ago
[00:27:27] I work with it
[00:27:29] who you know and so it's like when you think
[00:27:31] about that it's like
[00:27:33] it's like okay this is just
[00:27:35] bringing back all the things
[00:27:37] that were there not that long
[00:27:39] ago and we're just kind of repeating this history
[00:27:41] so it's like let's be smarter than this
[00:27:43] and not just sit back and wait till this happens
[00:27:45] and it's across the board
[00:27:47] we're seeing it with
[00:27:49] LGBTQ community we're seeing it
[00:27:51] with women's health rights like it's
[00:27:53] scary and ridiculous
[00:27:55] you know and here we go
[00:27:57] we're in an election year so we know
[00:27:59] that 2024
[00:28:01] is going to be interesting
[00:28:03] that's the word I'm choosing
[00:28:05] to use today
[00:28:07] it is definitely causing us
[00:28:09] to sort of prepare and sort of think about
[00:28:11] it but again I go back to that community
[00:28:13] aspect it's like
[00:28:15] how do we mobilize
[00:28:17] locally within our communities in this
[00:28:19] work as well again
[00:28:21] kind of taking it out of the board rooms
[00:28:23] and the corporations where it needs to be
[00:28:25] but also infusing that in our
[00:28:27] you know our local politicians
[00:28:29] our local laws
[00:28:31] that are happening that are inequitable
[00:28:33] or taking away our rights it's like how do we stand
[00:28:35] up there as well
[00:28:38] I think that's a piece that you know
[00:28:40] all I'm thinking about right now is you know
[00:28:42] you both said this like the education
[00:28:44] piece in schools right now
[00:28:46] we know that there is such a challenge
[00:28:48] to even sharing
[00:28:50] history and what actually
[00:28:52] has happened and you know this being Black History Month
[00:28:54] and as kids learn about
[00:28:56] slavery and the trauma that
[00:28:58] black children go through
[00:29:00] during you know that learning
[00:29:02] and yet we're
[00:29:04] trying to say oh no it's actually traumatic for the
[00:29:06] white kids so we can't talk about this
[00:29:08] sorry
[00:29:10] hey you know the trauma
[00:29:12] that we're going through by talking about this as
[00:29:14] you know oh these people were considered less than
[00:29:16] or they you know this happened
[00:29:18] or whatever it might be
[00:29:20] and how that
[00:29:22] has touched so many people
[00:29:24] and yet the concern
[00:29:26] right now is well we don't want to hurt the feelings
[00:29:28] of the white kids
[00:29:30] and we don't want them to feel bad about themselves
[00:29:32] and so there is just this weird
[00:29:34] you know
[00:29:36] logic to all of it as well
[00:29:38] but I love the idea that you're saying
[00:29:40] I think you know Jack and I both are
[00:29:42] very much into
[00:29:44] kind of the grassroots and the community
[00:29:46] and how can we talk to folks
[00:29:48] and share with politicians and share with our
[00:29:50] local
[00:29:52] folks in charge
[00:29:54] what's important to us and I think that's just such
[00:29:56] a critical piece
[00:29:58] and we'll start saying it now
[00:30:00] because I think we're at that point where everyone needs
[00:30:02] to be registering to vote so
[00:30:04] go vote go register to vote I should say
[00:30:06] at this point go register to vote
[00:30:08] but
[00:30:10] when you think about you know
[00:30:12] a person going into an organization
[00:30:14] who doesn't have the 20 years of experience
[00:30:16] that you have doing this work
[00:30:18] what are the things that you would recommend
[00:30:20] you know that someone does it maybe it's like a leader
[00:30:22] of HR or that is
[00:30:24] recruiting or you know the folks
[00:30:26] that maybe are leading a small
[00:30:28] team and our frontline leaders things like that
[00:30:30] yeah definitely
[00:30:32] so I think part of what I
[00:30:34] always tell leaders
[00:30:36] especially who are kind of new to this or new to their
[00:30:38] roles is you got to get out
[00:30:40] and start you know reaching out
[00:30:42] to those infrastructures and those resources
[00:30:44] that can bring that knowledge in I think there's
[00:30:46] a hesitancy
[00:30:48] at least in a lot of the folks that I work
[00:30:50] with to sort of well I don't you know
[00:30:52] not every resource is created equal
[00:30:54] there's so many out there I don't know who to go
[00:30:56] to or I'm going to go
[00:30:58] to the top four consulting areas
[00:31:00] and in the DEI space because
[00:31:02] they you know I'm gonna pay them a ton of money
[00:31:04] but they're they're the voice
[00:31:06] and authority that I know of
[00:31:08] and so part of that is really getting down
[00:31:10] your research and understanding the culture
[00:31:12] that you're in because not
[00:31:14] not every size
[00:31:16] is going to fit your particular organization
[00:31:18] and then I think there's also a certain
[00:31:20] level of humility
[00:31:22] that one has to have I think
[00:31:24] forget who said it earlier but it's like sometimes
[00:31:26] we don't know what we don't know
[00:31:28] and it's sort of recognizing that
[00:31:30] there's nobody's expecting
[00:31:32] you to be the sort of the expert in all of this
[00:31:34] but we do expect you to be the expert
[00:31:36] and figuring out how to get this done
[00:31:38] and I think that's part of
[00:31:40] you know
[00:31:42] how this work sort of progresses
[00:31:44] one thing that I tell people very seriously
[00:31:46] and I'm very very serious with this
[00:31:48] is you know when they go
[00:31:50] and they look for consultants and things like that
[00:31:52] I'm like if I look at their boards
[00:31:54] look at the diversity
[00:31:56] of their boards particularly just
[00:31:58] for me what I advise is
[00:32:00] how do they position black women
[00:32:02] is it somebody at the top
[00:32:04] have they been there for just three months
[00:32:06] have they rotated a lot
[00:32:08] look at that backup understand kind of
[00:32:10] what you're getting yourself into
[00:32:12] and if you don't see that representation
[00:32:14] if you don't see that change that's your red flag
[00:32:16] you may not know all the ins and outs
[00:32:18] but that's a flag that you need to look at
[00:32:20] is how do they position
[00:32:22] this work I have worked with organizations
[00:32:24] where again
[00:32:26] well-intentioned people but if your entire
[00:32:28] board is white and there's no intersectionality
[00:32:30] there's no diversity within it
[00:32:32] and you're in the DEI space
[00:32:34] I'm questioning what exactly are we doing here right?
[00:32:38] how exactly are we positioning
[00:32:40] this organization to come in and help
[00:32:42] and so that's really you know how
[00:32:44] I start you know helping
[00:32:46] these organizations start to put together
[00:32:48] those foundations if I'm not
[00:32:50] in that particular position but simply
[00:32:52] helping out
[00:32:54] well and along with that
[00:32:56] it's do the research
[00:32:58] of the people that are there
[00:33:00] like is this somebody that should be on the board
[00:33:02] you mean you have to you know do your math
[00:33:04] because it's not
[00:33:06] just about optics right?
[00:33:08] there are plenty of people
[00:33:10] who optically
[00:33:12] look a certain way
[00:33:14] and that was always the challenge
[00:33:16] when you first started in my lifetime
[00:33:18] at Gen Xers
[00:33:20] like when you saw people
[00:33:22] starting to
[00:33:24] get more leadership positions but they
[00:33:26] still had the same pedigree as everyone else
[00:33:28] right? like they still
[00:33:30] graduated from
[00:33:32] Yale or went to a top
[00:33:34] prep school or lived in these communities
[00:33:36] and had different things so it was like
[00:33:38] okay what is this person
[00:33:40] offering to the table? are they looking
[00:33:42] at other people with the experience that
[00:33:44] maybe they don't have that same pedigree?
[00:33:46] are they looking at all of those things
[00:33:48] and what are they doing to try to
[00:33:50] get that because the other thing
[00:33:52] that we're seeing now is
[00:33:54] people are done being only
[00:33:56] like I'm just not you know I always say
[00:33:58] I'm not going to be a
[00:34:00] volunteer as tribute but it's like
[00:34:02] what have you done up to this point?
[00:34:04] because some people are like I see
[00:34:06] and I appreciate you asking me but I'm not doing that
[00:34:08] I'm not going to be tokenized
[00:34:10] or be your only one so dig
[00:34:12] deeper
[00:34:14] I love that
[00:34:16] I'm looking at Katie
[00:34:18] is talking to her dogs
[00:34:20] no I just can read lips really
[00:34:22] male man it's a problem
[00:34:24] male just trying to get us
[00:34:26] I say that all the time too with my dogs
[00:34:28] but you know
[00:34:30] you do the best that you can
[00:34:32] one of the things that you had brought up
[00:34:34] was about bringing voices
[00:34:36] to the table
[00:34:38] how can someone you know
[00:34:40] what is a good way because you want to
[00:34:42] enable people to feel confident enough
[00:34:44] and create an environment where people feel
[00:34:46] like they can share
[00:34:48] but you also don't want to put somebody on the spot
[00:34:50] like maybe there's a reason Marcia
[00:34:52] hasn't said anything during this meeting
[00:34:54] I'm going to do something else
[00:34:56] so how can you
[00:34:58] safely bring voices
[00:35:00] out that may not have been
[00:35:02] heard and may have
[00:35:04] experienced that
[00:35:06] it's not a good place for them to speak up
[00:35:08] oh for sure so yeah I mean
[00:35:10] it sounds a lot simpler than it is
[00:35:12] when simply saying if you don't have a seat at the table
[00:35:14] you're on the menu but that is where
[00:35:16] at least in the work that I do
[00:35:18] that's where I sort of leverage the privilege
[00:35:20] that I have within the organization
[00:35:22] to be able to bring voices out
[00:35:24] to those thought leaders
[00:35:26] to those idea generators and bring them along
[00:35:28] with me on that journey so if I'm
[00:35:30] if I'm privileged enough
[00:35:32] to be part of those conversations
[00:35:34] I'm reaching back out to those
[00:35:36] to those groups to say what do you all
[00:35:38] think about these type of things let me
[00:35:40] let me be that catalyst
[00:35:42] to elevate and then it's less about
[00:35:44] me it's saying hey I've reached out to this group
[00:35:46] they've got some really great ideas to move the business
[00:35:48] forward
[00:35:50] and I can do it justice and I've got them sitting there
[00:35:52] right with me one of the things that I
[00:35:54] love in my current world that I'm doing
[00:35:56] right now is we have a
[00:35:58] mentorship program but it's
[00:36:00] it's a it's a mentorship
[00:36:02] aligned with
[00:36:04] those historically excluded or
[00:36:06] actively marginalized groups right so
[00:36:08] we're bringing in women we're bringing
[00:36:10] in vets we're bringing in black and african-american
[00:36:12] we're bringing in those of the AAPI
[00:36:14] community to partner
[00:36:16] and mentor with senior executives
[00:36:18] to say hey
[00:36:20] I may not understand your perspective
[00:36:22] but you're going to sit in that room and we're going to have
[00:36:24] these offline conversations and you're going to
[00:36:26] educate me right and that's
[00:36:28] it that is a ton of psychological
[00:36:30] safety work that has to be built up
[00:36:32] it's a ton of educational
[00:36:34] work as to what are some of those again
[00:36:36] historical traumas
[00:36:38] of being the only or the one
[00:36:40] of one but it's understanding
[00:36:42] and it's helping you know in my case
[00:36:44] executives understand the privilege
[00:36:46] that they have to sit in those
[00:36:48] rooms and sit at that table
[00:36:50] and then bringing those voices along
[00:36:52] and then I just I really just you know
[00:36:54] I model that behavior for them
[00:36:56] a lot of times so it's like hey
[00:36:58] I'm going to bring one of our hourly
[00:37:00] workers with us because you know what
[00:37:02] they said something that I didn't even consider
[00:37:04] here I'm being humble as a
[00:37:06] D.I. practitioner here's
[00:37:08] something I didn't consider this
[00:37:10] happened recently when we were talking about
[00:37:12] ways better ways
[00:37:14] to communicate to all our employees
[00:37:16] and you know
[00:37:18] emails all the technologies
[00:37:20] right the slack the teams and everything
[00:37:22] like that and I was just casually
[00:37:24] having a conversation
[00:37:26] with some of our hourly workers because
[00:37:28] again that's that touch point and they go
[00:37:30] I'm working all day I don't have time to
[00:37:32] check email yeah
[00:37:34] I don't what is teams what is slack
[00:37:36] and it's like it's such a you know
[00:37:38] aha moment but when you're
[00:37:40] working you know you've got those blinders
[00:37:42] you're like yeah how
[00:37:44] would this ever get to you right
[00:37:46] but again it's not just me
[00:37:48] going into a meeting with executives and going
[00:37:50] hey how are our it's like
[00:37:52] hey no I'm gonna bring in this individual
[00:37:54] because they've got a really great idea
[00:37:56] on how to communicate better with our
[00:37:58] hourly workers and then that's how we
[00:38:00] and then leveraging really our employee resource
[00:38:02] groups to be that catalyst to be
[00:38:04] that sort of entity is really
[00:38:06] something that
[00:38:08] I'm really proud of in the work that I've done
[00:38:10] in the past couple of years is to again
[00:38:12] bring that group with me
[00:38:14] hey you're coming along with me we're
[00:38:16] not just going to leverage you in its black
[00:38:18] history month and we want to know something cool
[00:38:20] to do right it's like no how are you
[00:38:22] actually going to affect the business hey
[00:38:24] do you want to increase sales with the
[00:38:26] African-American population here's how
[00:38:28] we're going to do that because of these
[00:38:30] ideas that are and then obviously compensating
[00:38:32] them you know not just using their free
[00:38:34] intellectual labor but obviously
[00:38:36] compensating and rewarding them for that
[00:38:38] you know but that it sounds
[00:38:40] simple but
[00:38:42] but that's years that's years
[00:38:44] of work that's years of conversation
[00:38:46] that's years of
[00:38:48] modeling that behavior
[00:38:50] that's not it's not an easy thing
[00:38:52] by any means the Jim's
[00:38:58] trial podcast explores the discoveries
[00:39:00] and trends forming the future
[00:39:02] of our lives
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[00:39:12] are all happening
[00:39:14] now if you want to know what's happening
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[00:39:18] to the Jim's trial
[00:39:22] well and I would also say it's years of
[00:39:24] building trust with the folks that
[00:39:26] you are bringing because it probably is
[00:39:28] scary for them when you're saying hey
[00:39:30] come talk to the CEO or hey come talk
[00:39:32] to the entire leadership team or whatever
[00:39:34] so they are trusting in you that
[00:39:36] you're going to keep them safe in that
[00:39:38] situation if they are saying
[00:39:40] this doesn't work for us or hey you know all of these
[00:39:42] things so it's building trust but it's also
[00:39:44] I think the key
[00:39:46] and Jackie and I talk about this all the time
[00:39:48] listening
[00:39:50] you're going out to folks and saying
[00:39:52] is this working are you getting the messages
[00:39:54] that we're trying to share with you are you getting
[00:39:56] what you need from us and then listening
[00:39:58] to the responses and taking action from
[00:40:00] there because I think that's
[00:40:02] so and I
[00:40:04] have been guilty of this I am
[00:40:06] willing to admit it that it's the you know
[00:40:08] you're getting in the group and to your point
[00:40:10] you're in meetings you're in whatever and
[00:40:12] so like oh you just make a decision this is what
[00:40:14] we're going to do for the employees and then
[00:40:16] you're like wait a minute is this truly
[00:40:18] what the employees need or want or
[00:40:20] would be helpful and supportive of them
[00:40:22] but slowing down and doing that it's such
[00:40:24] a critical piece especially
[00:40:26] in this work but I think just
[00:40:28] in any piece of culture and engagement
[00:40:30] at a company the listening
[00:40:32] and making sure and checking back
[00:40:34] in and did I hear this right all of
[00:40:36] those things and I love
[00:40:38] the idea of just bringing them into the meeting
[00:40:40] with you so they can
[00:40:42] you're you reminded me of this
[00:40:44] story when I first started in this role that
[00:40:46] I was I you know sometimes
[00:40:48] things I just think of things I'm like yeah why wouldn't
[00:40:50] you do that but you know apparently they're like revolutionary
[00:40:52] right and so I just was
[00:40:54] like oh so when's a good night
[00:40:56] for me to work overnight and they're like
[00:40:58] what do you mean work overnight and I said well
[00:41:00] we have employees who
[00:41:02] work from like 11pm
[00:41:04] to 8am in the morning like how
[00:41:06] do we know
[00:41:08] what they think if we don't work overnight and was like
[00:41:10] why would you do that
[00:41:12] because that's where they're at like you know
[00:41:14] I want to work overnight to get
[00:41:16] to know them and to hear from and it's just stuff
[00:41:18] like that where it's like
[00:41:20] really like that's
[00:41:22] okay
[00:41:24] revolutionary
[00:41:26] this is where we're starting nobody
[00:41:28] thought of working overnight to hear from
[00:41:30] our overnight employees okay well let's
[00:41:32] do that and what are we going to learn
[00:41:34] we're going to learn so much from these
[00:41:36] employees who already feel like
[00:41:38] there's not that safety because nobody ever
[00:41:40] listens to what they've got to say and so it's
[00:41:42] stuff like that where it's just like okay
[00:41:44] um
[00:41:46] let's do this let me let me bring you in I'm
[00:41:48] going to share with you and show
[00:41:50] you that
[00:41:52] I at least care
[00:41:54] that you're here you know that you
[00:41:56] exist and I want to understand how
[00:41:58] you see about these things and you know again
[00:42:00] it's all the dimensions you know
[00:42:02] I leverage my veteran space to say
[00:42:04] hey you know um in Southern
[00:42:06] California we just lost five service people
[00:42:08] in a helicopter crash and it's like hey
[00:42:10] I just want to check in oh well nobody's
[00:42:12] checked in on us
[00:42:14] okay
[00:42:16] I just want to check in and see how you all are doing
[00:42:18] it's not you know no agenda just
[00:42:20] how are we feeling like I know what it's
[00:42:22] like to lose somebody in their service
[00:42:24] how are you all doing and it's
[00:42:26] things like that again
[00:42:28] it's not like it's part of
[00:42:30] a strategy of mine but it's like
[00:42:32] that's just what empathetic human beings
[00:42:34] do and
[00:42:36] I'm going to bring your story
[00:42:38] of experiencing
[00:42:40] loss when you were in the service to our
[00:42:42] executives we can talk about you know what are ways
[00:42:44] we can support our veterans it's
[00:42:46] small stuff like that but somebody's got
[00:42:48] to do it I guess
[00:42:50] well but it's another group of that's
[00:42:52] overlooked like
[00:42:54] and that's when it goes back
[00:42:56] to education and teaching people
[00:42:58] like there's a reason
[00:43:00] why we put veterans in this
[00:43:02] in the DEIB space
[00:43:04] because they're often discriminated against
[00:43:06] and still discriminated
[00:43:08] against it's not a box
[00:43:10] to check like there's a real support
[00:43:12] that needs to be had
[00:43:14] and to know how people are treated
[00:43:16] and it makes me
[00:43:18] you know
[00:43:20] think about like what are we doing
[00:43:22] to support each other as humans at some
[00:43:24] point it seems like we just got off the rails
[00:43:26] and it is
[00:43:28] important to understand
[00:43:30] that a differentiator for
[00:43:32] what we do at
[00:43:34] work and what if we
[00:43:36] diversity at work versus DEIB
[00:43:38] outside of work can look
[00:43:40] like two different things and
[00:43:42] you know
[00:43:44] you do want to be in all the places where
[00:43:46] people are working you know at least
[00:43:48] to check it out make sure that you're listening
[00:43:50] but then do something with it after you
[00:43:52] have it. You're absolutely right
[00:43:54] it says communities that we often
[00:43:56] overlook and they
[00:43:58] don't fill that safety they don't and then it's
[00:44:00] we end up missing these critical critical voices
[00:44:02] I'm neurodiverse
[00:44:04] the percentage of
[00:44:06] black men who are neurodiverse or at least
[00:44:08] at willy new admitted are so
[00:44:10] small yet we have so much to offer
[00:44:12] in terms of
[00:44:14] what we bring to the table and how we can
[00:44:16] improve but nobody's talking to us
[00:44:18] nobody's reaching out
[00:44:20] and it's like okay well then somebody's got to do it
[00:44:22] somebody's got to reach out to these
[00:44:24] communities and do it so it's like I can't
[00:44:26] be everywhere but I try to be as many
[00:44:28] places as I can be.
[00:44:30] Well I love that it's also you've
[00:44:32] mentioned kind of modeling the behavior
[00:44:34] which I think is another
[00:44:36] factor that
[00:44:38] if no one else is doing it
[00:44:40] we have to stand up and do it and I think
[00:44:42] that's a piece also that folks maybe
[00:44:44] miss is like oh no one's doing it oh
[00:44:46] well I guess we're just not going to do it
[00:44:48] but we just know we need to hear from folks
[00:44:50] that like there's such a subculture
[00:44:52] of folks that work overnight
[00:44:54] and it's a completely
[00:44:56] different world I feel like because they are just
[00:44:58] they have
[00:45:00] different things going on at home they have different
[00:45:02] things going on as to why they're working
[00:45:04] overnight whatever it might be and it is such a
[00:45:06] fascinating thing when you do get to sit down
[00:45:08] with them to go just tell me all the things
[00:45:10] tell me you know what's going on how is
[00:45:12] your world
[00:45:14] whatever it might be and so I like
[00:45:16] to see that you know
[00:45:18] so I'm just like you know
[00:45:20] I don't think we should
[00:45:22] be talking about this
[00:45:24] because it's a very
[00:45:26] important thing and we are
[00:45:28] recommending that approach
[00:45:30] I've learned so much from that you know
[00:45:32] and it's
[00:45:34] as a D I practitioner it's almost
[00:45:36] embarrassing sometimes because it and it's
[00:45:38] very humbling because you know doing this
[00:45:40] so long but doing it from the corporate lens
[00:45:42] you you
[00:45:44] know how about getting your emails on your
[00:45:46] phone maybe when you're off shift and things
[00:45:48] like that because I can't afford
[00:45:50] a smart phone
[00:45:53] right like man
[00:45:55] even in
[00:45:57] think of a solution I'm not
[00:45:59] thinking at that level right and it was just
[00:46:01] it was eye-opening for me and it was very humbling
[00:46:03] because it was like oh I need
[00:46:05] to I need to get out of this
[00:46:07] sort of corporatist level
[00:46:09] of thinking that these are people with all
[00:46:11] individual stories I need to understand
[00:46:13] what what is it that
[00:46:15] motivates them you know yeah I know
[00:46:17] why I'm here but you're just here trying to
[00:46:19] survive and make whatever you can in our
[00:46:21] that we're coming from two different
[00:46:23] paradigms when it comes to
[00:46:25] this work and I need to understand
[00:46:27] yours very very
[00:46:29] intimately and quickly
[00:46:31] or everything I'm doing is
[00:46:33] is only going to cause you
[00:46:35] wrong so it's
[00:46:37] that level that it's just you know it's
[00:46:39] like I need to understand
[00:46:41] you know those outside of my privilege I need to
[00:46:43] understand single parents I need to
[00:46:45] understand all these type of things
[00:46:47] and maybe that's my own fixation
[00:46:49] it's like I got to know all the things
[00:46:51] because I can't do this
[00:46:53] work if I'm not informed if I'm just
[00:46:55] making assumptions I don't know it just I think
[00:46:57] that's where as practitioners we get
[00:46:59] a lot of trouble and we sort of harm
[00:47:01] ourselves in this work when we make these
[00:47:03] assumptions of like oh we're just going to
[00:47:05] do this because this sounds great and it's
[00:47:07] like
[00:47:09] what I said yeah just
[00:47:11] well I think the other one and I
[00:47:13] actually have this slide in one of the trainings
[00:47:15] that I do and it's like the world who
[00:47:17] who has access to
[00:47:19] Wi-Fi and obviously
[00:47:21] this became a major you know factor
[00:47:23] when people were being sent home from work
[00:47:25] and it was
[00:47:27] oh I don't have I need a hotspot or I need
[00:47:29] you know something for reliable internet
[00:47:31] which again you know very similar example
[00:47:33] where it is like oh I didn't even
[00:47:35] think that
[00:47:37] would be something we would need to talk about
[00:47:39] but we need to and we need to make sure that
[00:47:41] everyone has what they need just to
[00:47:43] like you said survive and get the basics
[00:47:45] of work done it's just
[00:47:47] it's fascinating I'll take it once that
[00:47:49] forward when I was working in higher
[00:47:51] education we were it was in the middle
[00:47:53] of the pandemic what again was an eye
[00:47:55] opening moment was that sort of
[00:47:57] technological equity right it's like who
[00:47:59] has their own laptops versus who doesn't
[00:48:01] which our students have the access
[00:48:03] power was another thing that I just was
[00:48:05] like we don't we have students that had
[00:48:07] unreliable power that's right
[00:48:09] you did not have access to power it was
[00:48:11] like oh yeah
[00:48:13] but then it was also it was not only
[00:48:15] the access to technology in those
[00:48:17] infrastructure services but it was also how
[00:48:19] do we use it right we were asking
[00:48:21] students for some of the first time like
[00:48:23] hey you need to you know configure
[00:48:25] your you know your hotspot
[00:48:27] or configure your zoom for
[00:48:29] students who have never used that before so it was
[00:48:31] this whole sort of like just understanding
[00:48:33] technology we've given you this expensive
[00:48:35] laptop we give you a hotspot
[00:48:37] maybe we've been giving you a portable generator
[00:48:39] if you didn't have power security but
[00:48:41] like do you even know how to use it
[00:48:43] like are we just creating a barrier
[00:48:45] in our
[00:48:47] in our you know
[00:48:49] had ourselves on the back moment of
[00:48:51] inclusivity and we're just we're creating
[00:48:53] a situation where students can't thrive
[00:48:55] so it's it's like
[00:48:57] you just learn you keep learning
[00:48:59] I mean it's still
[00:49:01] happening my husband works for the
[00:49:03] Waco independent school district
[00:49:05] somebody stole another kid's laptop
[00:49:07] when you're without a laptop
[00:49:09] you have to pay $200
[00:49:11] to get a lap to replace
[00:49:13] it and so people are stealing
[00:49:15] people's laptops and if you're not on
[00:49:17] TV you can't prove that somebody
[00:49:19] stole your laptop and
[00:49:21] but so what are you supposed to
[00:49:23] do like I don't like so I
[00:49:25] just don't have to go to education or I'm not a lot of graduate because
[00:49:27] I can't come up with extra
[00:49:29] $200 like we are
[00:49:31] so far
[00:49:33] from getting this right
[00:49:35] and you know there
[00:49:37] there's these inequities unless you put yourself in the spaces that we keep
[00:49:41] iterating over and over and let you put yourself
[00:49:43] you're not going to know and
[00:49:45] PS you can do everything right
[00:49:47] and it still not go well
[00:49:49] you can do everything right
[00:49:51] and but somebody's going to be mad
[00:49:53] that you don't have anybody with red hair
[00:49:55] on the company picnic
[00:49:57] and you can do everything right
[00:49:59] so give yourself grace
[00:50:01] hey, genders need love too
[00:50:03] okay
[00:50:05] absolutely
[00:50:07] don't harm the genders
[00:50:09] so
[00:50:11] Rolando
[00:50:13] one of the questions we like to ask folks
[00:50:15] is what is one thing
[00:50:17] you want to make sure folks here
[00:50:19] in this episode that they can take away
[00:50:21] that they can implement whatever it is
[00:50:23] what is your kind of one either call the action
[00:50:25] or one thing that you want to make sure people heard
[00:50:27] oh that's a good question
[00:50:29] I think right now I'm in this
[00:50:31] space of sort of
[00:50:33] I'm calling it empathetic
[00:50:35] diversity equity inclusion
[00:50:37] because I think what I'm seeing
[00:50:39] is
[00:50:41] this frustration in my
[00:50:43] industry and it's very
[00:50:45] recognizable and understandable frustration
[00:50:47] that we're in this moment
[00:50:49] where we're seeing
[00:50:51] senior diversity equity
[00:50:53] and inclusion leaders lose their job
[00:50:55] we're seeing them openly
[00:50:57] attacked on twitter we're seeing
[00:50:59] this backlash
[00:51:01] of
[00:51:03] just this push
[00:51:05] towards equity inclusion we're eating ourselves
[00:51:07] we're fighting amongst each other
[00:51:09] I can't believe you said that
[00:51:11] I can't believe you support this cause
[00:51:13] and I see that
[00:51:15] in our own communities as DEI
[00:51:17] practitioners
[00:51:19] I feel like we've forgotten
[00:51:21] in my opinion the sort of
[00:51:23] the core of
[00:51:25] maybe why we got into this work
[00:51:27] to begin with
[00:51:29] that's why I call it the origin story
[00:51:31] superhero you know Marble fan
[00:51:33] every superhero has got their origin story
[00:51:35] they didn't just
[00:51:37] Superman didn't just show up as Superman
[00:51:39] well that's DC I was talking about Marble
[00:51:41] but anyway we didn't
[00:51:43] show up that way right
[00:51:45] we went through something
[00:51:47] that may have come out the other side
[00:51:49] of the story
[00:51:51] and I think we forget that sometimes
[00:51:53] we forget where we came from
[00:51:55] and so I guess that's my big take away
[00:51:57] is I always try to humble myself
[00:51:59] and remember that origin story
[00:52:01] and also remember along with that grace
[00:52:03] and empathy that there may be
[00:52:05] other people out there that are just like me
[00:52:07] that are looking for that same grace
[00:52:09] and empathy on this journey
[00:52:11] and yeah it's easy for me to sit back
[00:52:13] and go you don't recognize your privilege
[00:52:15] it's easy for me to go
[00:52:17] and go with my finger and everything like that
[00:52:19] and not really pay attention
[00:52:21] to the consequences of doing that
[00:52:23] and so it's just
[00:52:25] remembering
[00:52:27] it's just reminding myself kind of
[00:52:29] from once we came in and you know
[00:52:31] taking a moment to just appreciate
[00:52:33] the progress we have made
[00:52:35] when it feels like there's just so much more
[00:52:37] to do you know when I look at my career
[00:52:39] you know pre George Floyd to now
[00:52:41] and see kind of what I've been able
[00:52:43] to do and been able to accomplish
[00:52:45] it's been slow
[00:52:47] it's been excruciatingly frustrating
[00:52:49] but
[00:52:51] when I do have I just
[00:52:53] spoke in a panel this past weekend
[00:52:55] I did two talks on one on inclusivity
[00:52:57] and the other authenticity
[00:52:59] when I have somebody come up to me and say
[00:53:01] I never thought of it
[00:53:03] like that I didn't realize
[00:53:05] what I was doing I didn't
[00:53:07] realize how much harm I was causing
[00:53:09] and now I'm going to change
[00:53:11] it's like those are the wins
[00:53:13] I'm just watching on to those
[00:53:15] and saying I love that
[00:53:17] how can we work together to take this forward
[00:53:19] you know those are the moments
[00:53:21] that I try to hold onto
[00:53:23] and kind of at least fill my cup
[00:53:25] because it's hard
[00:53:27] we know this
[00:53:29] but yeah I think that's the one thing
[00:53:31] I can just leave is don't forget where
[00:53:33] you came from remember your origin story
[00:53:35] remember your why and approach
[00:53:37] your work with empathy and grace
[00:53:39] love it
[00:53:41] I think I want people to just remember
[00:53:43] that intersectionality piece
[00:53:45] like keep telling
[00:53:47] these stories but
[00:53:49] understand we're not a monolith
[00:53:51] and there's a lot of different
[00:53:53] places that
[00:53:55] we identify
[00:53:57] and so don't forget
[00:53:59] that you know
[00:54:01] that there are different places
[00:54:03] that people
[00:54:05] might need your assistance
[00:54:07] in showing up and then also to be the voice
[00:54:09] for people that look
[00:54:11] for the voices that are missing to make sure
[00:54:13] that everybody's being heard
[00:54:15] love it
[00:54:17] and I think that the piece that
[00:54:19] you said in many different ways
[00:54:21] is just giving people the agency
[00:54:23] to actually have the choice
[00:54:25] to have the ability to learn
[00:54:27] to have the ability to say
[00:54:29] this is what I need
[00:54:31] this is what would make me feel safe
[00:54:33] all of those pieces because I think that's
[00:54:35] we talk about trauma informed work
[00:54:37] and just listening and actually saying
[00:54:39] what can I do
[00:54:41] to make this better to make this
[00:54:43] safe to make this okay for you
[00:54:45] and how do we actually do that
[00:54:47] in real life
[00:54:49] and you gave some great examples of how you do it
[00:54:51] so I appreciate that
[00:54:53] so Rolando I think
[00:54:55] we could probably talk for another
[00:54:57] six to seven hours but alas
[00:54:59] our editors make us cut it at a certain time
[00:55:01] so
[00:55:03] they keep us in line
[00:55:05] but thank you so much for joining us
[00:55:07] truly appreciate it
[00:55:09] this is Katie Van Horn
[00:55:11] and this is Jackie Clayton
[00:55:13] bye
[00:55:37] we also provide the context and nuance that these stories deserve
[00:55:39] at Fruit Loops we're serving up true crime
[00:55:41] with a side of history, society, culture
[00:55:43] and some fun
[00:55:45] listen to Fruit Loops Serial Killers of Color
[00:55:47] on Spotify, Google Play, Apple Podcast
[00:55:49] or wherever you get your podcasts
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