Getting Inclusive AF with Meaghan Walls

[00:00:00] You're listening to Inclusive AF with Jackie Clayton and Katie Van Horn.

[00:00:09] Hi, Jackie.

[00:00:10] Hi, Katie.

[00:00:11] How are you doing?

[00:00:13] You know, living the dream.

[00:00:14] Every day is a holiday up in here.

[00:00:16] I'm home.

[00:00:18] So you know, things are going.

[00:00:19] Miracles.

[00:00:20] You've been traveling a lot.

[00:00:22] Share with others.

[00:00:23] There are some of the places that you've been.

[00:00:25] I'll share as well.

[00:00:26] Yeah.

[00:00:27] Houston.

[00:00:28] Excuse me, I live in Waco and I did not drive for three hours to see you.

[00:00:34] Normally I would.

[00:00:35] Yeah.

[00:00:36] I am sad about that.

[00:00:38] But I was busy the entire time so it really would have been a complete waste of a drive

[00:00:44] for you.

[00:00:45] But let's see, I was in Germany.

[00:00:49] I was in France.

[00:00:50] I don't know.

[00:00:52] And now I'm going to do that again starting Saturday.

[00:00:55] So you know, it's great.

[00:00:57] It's great.

[00:00:58] I'm not tired.

[00:00:59] You're tired.

[00:01:00] I know.

[00:01:01] All of my travel has been local.

[00:01:03] It's been at California.

[00:01:04] I spent some time in Dallas.

[00:01:06] I just got back from Austin, a lot of local traveling and exciting, the exciting times.

[00:01:17] As long as I am not at home, it's been pretty exciting.

[00:01:22] It's very good.

[00:01:23] Well, hey, by the way, this is the inclusive podcast folks.

[00:01:27] So welcome.

[00:01:29] Jackie and I have a special guest today and so want to turn it over to her to introduce herself

[00:01:36] and share a little bit about her background.

[00:01:38] So Megan, I will turn it over to you.

[00:01:42] I'm excited to be here.

[00:01:43] I've heard so much about you all.

[00:01:45] We share some mutual people that insisted that this would be a good conversation.

[00:01:52] So I'm glad to be here.

[00:01:54] Yeah.

[00:01:55] I'm here as well.

[00:01:58] I love you guys.

[00:02:00] I love the girls.

[00:02:01] I am in Omaha, so, I don't know where that triangulates all of us.

[00:02:04] I am, you know,

[00:02:16] Book puzzle nature, plant loving wife and mom of two girls.

[00:02:19] Keep busy with activities and work in the disability realm of things in a

[00:02:24] lived in Chicago, South Bend, Indiana, Boston, and suburbs, I guess. And then made my way back here,

[00:02:35] where I had more family. I drugged my New England-born husband out of Boston and got him back here to

[00:02:42] the Midwest, which was a miracle. A miracle I didn't think was going to happen. But yeah,

[00:02:48] my journey here in Omaha, my mom co-founded a medically based child care when I was young.

[00:02:55] So my exposure to the disability world was really organic and just I was immersed in it. I was around,

[00:03:02] you know, the kids and the educators and the therapists and the parents. And it just became

[00:03:08] a natural kind of process of learning what things got in the way of families and kids being able

[00:03:15] to do what they wanted to do. And then I volunteered and worked at the organization.

[00:03:24] And then as I got older, I realized, hey, I'm really good at problem solving. I'm kind of good

[00:03:29] at this engineering thing. And I really got interested in the adaptive technology side of

[00:03:37] what kids and the families and the therapists were using. And I'm not that old, but it was

[00:03:42] really at the, it was still at the very beginning stages of when assistive technology was mainstream

[00:03:49] and beyond just hospital beds and wheelchairs. And so it was really still an emerging field.

[00:03:55] And I decided to pursue rehab engineering, which is a mashup of physiology and

[00:04:05] engineering, really to solve human access problems. I have a blog on my website about

[00:04:10] what the heck is a rehab engineer, because I got asked that question so many times. So

[00:04:15] it'll take you all in depth if you want to, you want to explore that. But really, I just went to

[00:04:21] learn how to take devices or things, tools that are out there and use them to remove barriers

[00:04:30] for people to do the things that they wanted to do. And that's really been

[00:04:33] the driving passion behind the journey I've taken through grad school and working for

[00:04:38] Easter Seals, Massachusetts. And then into my current role as the CEO for Center for Disability

[00:04:43] Inclusion, it's really been centered around all different ways of removing barriers to

[00:04:50] participation so that people can do what they want to do in the way that they want to do it.

[00:04:55] And so sometimes that's technology based, sometimes that's training, sometimes it's

[00:04:59] environment, sometimes it's just straight up attitudes. So that's me in the very big

[00:05:07] nutshell. It's a very big nutshell. Yeah, exactly. There's so much to unravel. You're welcome.

[00:05:20] I wanted to jump in. I know Katie has questions too, but like,

[00:05:26] I think of adaptive technology and there's so many things, you know, there's so many

[00:05:32] things that we need or places where I could be a need for assistive technology. How do you,

[00:05:39] like what is the most common thing that you work on? I can't imagine it's like, oh, I want to,

[00:05:43] I would want to solve so many different things. It's like, how do you know where to get started?

[00:05:48] You know? Yeah, there is no one starting place really. The, I shouldn't say that in terms

[00:05:56] of the technology, but this the starting place is just understanding the need. And so it's very

[00:06:02] specific to what's the barrier and kind of following that direction. But I think one of the most

[00:06:10] fun parts of talking about assistive technology is that people often think it's really complex,

[00:06:20] like exoskeletons or talking robots that, you know, can clean your house or, or it's very simply,

[00:06:29] you know, wheelchairs and things that you use in the bathroom or, and it's really just helping

[00:06:35] people understand it's any tool that makes your life easier. I tell people, I get chronic migraines

[00:06:40] and when we jump to this highly remote workforce, my migraines went through the roof and I came

[00:06:47] to realize it was a computer screen induced thing. So I wear blue light glasses, everyone thinks I wear

[00:06:54] glasses typically. But that's assistive technology. That's just a tool that makes it so that I can

[00:07:01] function to my optimal amount throughout the day. And so it's really starting with that conversation

[00:07:08] and with those whoever it is or whatever the situation is like, what's getting in the way?

[00:07:13] What are you having trouble doing and why? And then problem solving through what,

[00:07:21] what could solve that. And sometimes you find it in a store and sometimes you get to make it.

[00:07:25] And that's when it gets really fun. But it's really understanding the person and what they

[00:07:32] want to do and why they can't do it. Like left handed scissors. I was looking at

[00:07:38] pin snips. It was a version of the amazing race. This woman was trying to make a

[00:07:44] and that my husband is brilliant and I am not brilliant. And so I'm looking at it. I'm like,

[00:07:50] why are they having a problem? She's like, I can't get it. I'm crying. I'm like, what is going on?

[00:07:55] He's like, those are left handed snips. And I was like, well, should she change hands?

[00:08:00] And he's like, they're not gonna work. I was like, what is happening? Like I don't understand

[00:08:05] and it was like, it's those types of things. Like you said, it's not, it doesn't have to be as

[00:08:11] major. Like you said exo-stellar and sometimes it's just like, oh, if you had a product that

[00:08:17] built it upside down, I could use it. But in this way I can't. And sometimes it's putting in place

[00:08:25] a strategy of using color coded cards to mark things. And so it's really, it's understanding how

[00:08:35] people process information, what physical barriers are in the way and just kind of trial and error

[00:08:45] a lot of times. Absolutely. I will say I have a very slight impairment from I'm over 40 now and

[00:08:55] my sight, if I don't have these on everything slightly blurry on my computer screen. So that is

[00:09:01] a very minor inconvenience. But what is the one thing that you think from an organizational

[00:09:10] perspective? I know you do a lot with children, but is there something that like in organizations

[00:09:16] is requested the most or is the most needed today? Yeah. So most of my work today falls kind of in two

[00:09:27] different realms actually. So under my consulting brand, I do mostly either sensory equipment work

[00:09:38] with schools. So right now I'm in the middle of well the tail end of a year long project

[00:09:43] working with the school district to understand what sensory equipment they have available to their

[00:09:50] teachers and their students, educate them on how to use it, what that means, how they understand,

[00:09:56] its purpose and architectural access. But with the Center for Disability Inclusion,

[00:10:04] we're working with businesses who are striving to be employers of choice for people with

[00:10:10] disabilities. And so we are doing training and consulting with that sole lens of positioning

[00:10:19] them to be successful in that diverse hiring. So you know, we like to say you have to look inside

[00:10:27] before you can project outside because if your insides aren't prepped to train, retain, promote

[00:10:38] people with disabilities in your workforce, then going out and recruiting them and hiring them is

[00:10:42] going to be a wasted effort because they're not going to stay. They're not going to see a place for

[00:10:47] them in your business. And so we do a lot around accommodation process with companies as well as

[00:10:58] a lot of training just to sometimes tell them it's okay to talk about disability. And it

[00:11:06] sounds so simple, but sometimes they just need it's like they need permission. Not a bad word.

[00:11:13] Let's normalize this conversation. And then from getting some of those foundational elements around

[00:11:20] let's have a conversation about mental health and wellness, let's have a conversation about

[00:11:24] neurodiversity. Let's talk about accommodation processes and understand that it doesn't have

[00:11:31] to be super complex and it can be really streamlined so that you get to a good endpoint.

[00:11:36] Then it really, those are those channels to open up the doors to actually change processes and

[00:11:43] change programs so that all of those things are in place. So again, there's another long answer, but

[00:11:53] really from the business standpoint, there's been a really

[00:12:01] elevated interest in talking about it, which has been great because that's how progress gets made.

[00:12:14] Imagine how fast we could solve the world's biggest problems if more SA Startups would gain

[00:12:19] traction sooner. Welcome to the Tech Entrepreneur on the Mission podcast. This podcast is

[00:12:24] dedicated to sharing experiences from B2B SA CEOs who are going above and beyond to deliver

[00:12:30] change that is noticed. You will hear their secrets and learn what is required to build a

[00:12:35] science business that the world starts talking about and keeps talking about and how to overcome

[00:12:41] the roadblocks to do so. I'm glad that you said that. I feel like there's so many things,

[00:12:47] especially with children that we mask as being a child that isn't, that might be

[00:12:56] a disability and you don't realize it until much later. One of the examples that I always say is

[00:13:04] I didn't have an active imagination. I had an anxiety disorder. This was not an active

[00:13:12] imagination. So many times as children, you'll say, oh, they're just being little or when you

[00:13:18] get older, like, oh, you forget things because you're just getting old. No, no, no, no.

[00:13:24] It's because I couldn't hear you because something was going on. So you never got it.

[00:13:29] And there's something that we can fix there so that you can be more active and be more of a part

[00:13:36] of that. You had mentioned more about having the conversations and helping organizations in

[00:13:43] that way. Do you also help people with disabilities know how to communicate with

[00:13:49] their employers? Because there's two sides. If your employer hasn't gotten that, but I still

[00:13:55] need to be able to get my needs met. How do I do that in a non-threatening way of saying, hey,

[00:14:03] so I have this thing and so I'm going to bring this thing with me. I don't want anybody to

[00:14:08] freak out. Let me explain why this is in place. And I don't want to put it back on the person

[00:14:14] with the disability, but it's always one of those things where it's like I know that I'm going to

[00:14:19] bring this thing with me and there's going to be a conversation. So if they don't have it ready

[00:14:25] and I'd like to prep them, is there anything to help the person with the disability as well?

[00:14:31] I mean, there are. So we don't work directly with candidates. So if someone's out there

[00:14:37] job searching, right? We don't work directly with them in their processes. But the way that we

[00:14:45] and we never call anyone out in our consultation with companies, if people share and disclose,

[00:14:53] then that just enhances the conversation. But it's never something that we require or point out.

[00:15:02] But when we're talking to the workforce in general through the training and the consultation,

[00:15:07] you know, we let them know like there are 500 different types of disabilities.

[00:15:12] 74% of them you can't see. They're not apparent. And 26% of U.S. adults identify with the

[00:15:20] disability. So in this room, let's say where I have 100 people, 26 of you

[00:15:27] more than likely have some level or some type of disability. So there are people with

[00:15:30] disabilities are already in their workforces. And so when we talk to them, we talk to them

[00:15:35] with that assumption. And so we talk about language, inclusive language and, you know,

[00:15:42] building that culture where it's like, you want people to talk to you about this need that they

[00:15:48] have, but you have to put a culture in place where there's trust and they know that it's

[00:15:51] not going to come down on them later and it's not going to, you know, not gonna,

[00:15:56] you know, they're not going to experience limited progression in their career because

[00:16:02] they've told their manager that they need this. So it really comes out not one-on-one with

[00:16:08] individuals or individual consulting with the employees with disabilities, but from that

[00:16:14] cultural angle of it's all tied together, you want your employees with disabilities

[00:16:21] to talk to you because then it becomes a performance issue to what you were saying

[00:16:24] about masking things and, you know, kind of brushing them off. And if within your culture,

[00:16:30] you don't have a safe space for me to come tell you that I've been diagnosed with type one

[00:16:38] diabetes and I'm trying to get my insulin managed and I need to take,

[00:16:45] I need scheduled 15 minute breaks to be able to like check and take care of that stuff.

[00:16:50] Then I'm not going to tell you and the side effects of me not taking care of myself are going

[00:16:55] to look like work performance issues, but they're really unmet accommodation needs.

[00:17:02] And so if you've had these conversations where you put in place the structure and the trust

[00:17:10] to have those conversations, you're actually better able to manage the performance of your

[00:17:16] workforce and have more, and then be able to turn some of those accommodation requests into

[00:17:25] best practices that benefit everybody. But you don't get to have those conversations if people are

[00:17:29] afraid to talk about disability. And the other side of it is not every disability is going to

[00:17:36] come with an accommodation request. So sometimes, you know, they just want you to better

[00:17:42] understand them and how they work. So for me, right, if I come to use a manager and I say,

[00:17:46] hey, I get chronic migraines, they're pretty well managed, I have tools, but if a front comes through

[00:17:52] really quick and I don't catch my tells, here's what you're going to see from the pain.

[00:17:59] I may all of a sudden not communicate the same way. I'm going to have a harder time finding

[00:18:03] the words. And if you don't know that I live with chronic migraines, you may think I had

[00:18:09] a lot of fun over lunch and make this assumption that I went out and had fun. And now there's this

[00:18:16] perception of job performance and irresponsibility versus what's actually going on. So I may just

[00:18:24] want you to know if you see this, this is what I'm going through and this is what I need.

[00:18:29] I don't need a whole accommodation process tied to it. So we try to talk through those types

[00:18:36] of scenarios and help with the cultural approach to disability and those conversations.

[00:18:42] And it going all the way back to children. And if you can't tell, my dad likes to say that I tell

[00:18:52] connect the dot stories. So I hope you can keep up because I go around. But what I thought of

[00:18:58] when you first were talking about behaviors with children, my daughter was diagnosed with ADHD

[00:19:04] this last summer. And so much made sense because I always described her as

[00:19:13] a child with big emotions on all sides of things. Someone who saw with their hands, she touched

[00:19:21] everything everywhere all the time. And some other things that kind of got her in trouble in

[00:19:28] kindergarten. And then as we put pieces together and she got diagnosed this summer, it all made

[00:19:35] sense. But for so long, I was just like, she just has big emotions, like happy, sad, mad.

[00:19:43] They're just big. But there was more to it. And so you if you don't raise that level of

[00:19:50] awareness to your point. And that's when I was like, Oh, and then it becomes a performance

[00:19:54] issue, whether that school or social or work. Because those personal needs aren't being met.

[00:20:02] Absolutely. I think you know, at first of all, I love your stories because it reminds me of my

[00:20:06] sister who does the same thing. So we're all good with that. So I think the part that I

[00:20:14] well, I liked everything about you said, but talking to the HR leadership, whoever it is

[00:20:20] to share with them that it's okay to talk about these things. But at the same time,

[00:20:25] it's not outing someone or or or assuming something or going, Oh, do you have this? Is that why,

[00:20:32] you know, you know, obviously you'd never want to do that because that shuts people down very

[00:20:37] quickly. So I love the idea of just having some open conversations and some educational programs

[00:20:42] to help people with how do we how do we talk about these topics in such a way. And

[00:20:49] especially when it comes to mental health or neurodiversity, I think there's so much unknown.

[00:20:55] And it isn't a one size fits all in any way, shape or form on any of these topics. So I like the idea,

[00:21:02] you know, we have an HR, you know, the ADA interactive dialogue where we ask questions of,

[00:21:08] you know, what do you need? All of these things. What I found recently, you know,

[00:21:12] to your point on maybe they don't need an accommodation. The other side of that is

[00:21:16] maybe they don't know what what to ask for or what they need. And so, you know, I think that's

[00:21:21] also just a great way to start the conversation. And as an HR person, as a leader, obviously,

[00:21:27] it's usually HR that's having this conversation. It's the having some suggestions of what might

[00:21:32] help like to your point, Okay, I need an extra break or I need, you know, some of the I need

[00:21:36] to step away during a meeting or whatever it is. So having those in your back pocket to

[00:21:41] suggest to folks is I think such a really important piece as well. But just being able to have an open

[00:21:51] dialogue. I think that means the world to folks when you are just listening and trying to show

[00:21:58] empathy of, you know, I make might not understand it completely but try to help me understand

[00:22:03] and what can we do to make you successful in your in the workplace. So I love that.

[00:22:09] So not a question. Just a comment. Yeah. Well, I'm blown away though by your

[00:22:15] shows up as a performer. And you never thought about it. But I never thought about the fact that

[00:22:22] like it was it was easy for people to understand that like when my mom passed away that maybe

[00:22:28] I wasn't fully pregnant. It was easy for them to understand that. But what if you're just

[00:22:33] depressed? Right. And so and all I needed was maybe an extra 30 minutes in the morning with my dog

[00:22:42] so that I can ease into my day. But instead of doing that it creates all of this anxiety and

[00:22:48] resentment. And now I'm really not focused at all of these different things. And it's

[00:22:52] because I just heard something frightening to me the other day that was like,

[00:22:57] if people stop showing up the way that they used to, you know, they're having a behavioral

[00:23:01] issue, they're probably looking for another job. And it's like, whoa. That is you how are you drawing

[00:23:07] that line without realizing maybe there's something else that we can do. And it or maybe just giving

[00:23:14] people the space because they don't need an accommodation from me. They need this space

[00:23:21] for them to take that extra step blown away. Well, and that ties into that that empathy

[00:23:29] piece. We talked about that in some of our trainings, you know, the different types

[00:23:32] of workplace empathy that you, you know, that exists and how to choose the level that's appropriate

[00:23:39] for the situation. But that how it's like an underappreciated superpower.

[00:23:48] Right. Understood. Do what you have to do, Megan.

[00:23:54] I got three big ones.

[00:23:56] Do you have to do three? All right. Well, we'll let Megan settle. So I think the other piece that

[00:24:04] is really interesting, I want to find out about is just the thoughts on kind of those accommodations

[00:24:11] and what are some of the technological, you know, what technology, you know,

[00:24:17] whether that's robotics, you know, I think the basics that

[00:24:21] the MDS has been years ago, where, you know, just even a, the technology that goes over your screen

[00:24:27] on your computer to enlarge text or to print it in a certain way that someone with dyslexia

[00:24:33] is better able to read it and recognize. I actually, this was years ago and

[00:24:39] one of our friends actually called this out to us that like when you put hashtags

[00:24:43] on a tweet or wherever, capitalizing every word just so it's easier for folks to read it. And,

[00:24:50] you know, and again, this is just, it's such a simple thing that I'm well, I don't have any

[00:24:57] reading issues. And I still at times I'm like, wait, what is that hashtag? I don't know what

[00:25:01] that means. That just basically is because I'm not cool enough. But yes. But, you know,

[00:25:06] I think that would be another part that I would love to understand is just from a technology,

[00:25:11] what are some of the like technologies that you see commonly used?

[00:25:16] Yeah, that's called camel casing for anyone listening. Thank you because of the hump. So

[00:25:23] let's have a hump every time there's a word. You know, and I want to share, I'll share a few

[00:25:28] of those. I'm going to back up a moment because Jackie was when she was to a point

[00:25:36] that Jackie was making, you know, one of the things we tell HR teams, you know, is the lived

[00:25:43] experience of the person with a disability that's coming to you from accommodation or having that

[00:25:47] conversation matters the most in the process because of that if they've lived with it lifelong

[00:25:56] and they've been in other jobs, they may have an idea of what strategies worked or what they

[00:26:02] needed. But if they were in an accident or it was an injury, it's been an onset of an illness,

[00:26:09] they have no idea what's out there. And so being able to know that there are

[00:26:15] experts out there, organizations, the tech app program within your state that can help

[00:26:21] both rehab, different resources to help come up with a list of what's out there versus just

[00:26:32] pulling something off the shelf because I was and the story always comes to mind. There was

[00:26:37] an organization, they had a an admin personnel that they'd had. She worked there like 30 some years

[00:26:45] and she was diagnosed with a degenerative eye disease can't remember which one. And so

[00:26:51] they really wanted her to be able to stay in the role that she was in and keep doing the

[00:26:56] things that she was doing. So they gave her a catalog of assistive technology for low vision

[00:27:03] and blindness and told them told her to tell them what she needed. And she doesn't know. So,

[00:27:10] you know, they bought this and then it didn't work. They bought this and it didn't work. And so

[00:27:13] it was just the cycle of trying trial and error but not in a like an informed way. So then

[00:27:21] that creates more frustration and you don't end up with the right tools, right ripple effect after

[00:27:26] that. So that's why like so my background in assistive technology it's one of the things we

[00:27:32] talked to our partners about is like I'm a certified assistive technology professional

[00:27:35] like I've been trained to have those conversations and help narrow it down, right? Figure out

[00:27:40] what features we need, what the functionality needs to be and give you a few options to

[00:27:46] consider. Because without that it's like you could walk into a poll's pharmacy and like

[00:27:52] pick some things and not actually know what they do or if they're gonna meet that need.

[00:27:57] And so much of those the elements that will make that come within a lot of those accommodation

[00:28:06] class are actually just kind of built into things that technologies that we use now. So

[00:28:10] whether it's closed captioning or contrast or magnification, audio to the speech to text or

[00:28:20] you know audio out. Most of those things are built into the systems that we're using and it's just

[00:28:24] making sure that they're set up in the right way and utilize the right way. So if you're someone

[00:28:32] who can better articulate yourself through speech and writing is hard maybe it's

[00:28:37] because you have dyslexia or maybe it's just the way you process working with your manager to allow you to

[00:28:47] submit voice or video you know versus writing a paragraph or an email or paper like how you're

[00:28:55] communicating information. So sometimes it's tapping into what you already have which is why

[00:29:03] most of the accommodations don't cost anything because you're already it's already incorporated in

[00:29:09] things that you have. You know sometimes it's going to be a footstool lighting a lot. Old buildings

[00:29:17] that have fluorescent lighting are terrible for migraines, provision, they're really disruptive

[00:29:22] to people with sensory processing disorders and so if offices have fluorescent lighting

[00:29:32] it might be more desk and floor lighting that gets requested but not complicated

[00:29:38] and not going to break the bank either which another practice that we talk about that helps

[00:29:48] doing a presentation at the HR Nebraska conference this summer that's on accommodations through an

[00:29:54] equity lens and it's so it's looking at all of those things in the process and one you know when

[00:30:01] we talk about equity in this space having a centralized accommodation fund in an organization

[00:30:09] so that the money that's paying for the accommodations isn't coming from an individual

[00:30:14] manager's budget because right they want to protect their budget so they're less likely to

[00:30:19] be willing to extend on accommodations if it's going to negatively impact their budget but if the

[00:30:26] organization has said here's our pool of money this pays for whatever people tend to get what they

[00:30:33] need faster. Welcome change agents to your go-to place for stories that ignite your spirit fuel

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[00:31:20] love listening to your favorite podcasts. Absolutely and I will say from the HR side of

[00:31:28] things I was told very early on in my career and this was at a very large corporation so this

[00:31:33] is different in smaller organizations but there aren't when you're thinking about

[00:31:40] accommodations there are so many things and usually for folks that have had

[00:31:45] the issue whatever it might be for their entire life they are able to identify very easily here is

[00:31:51] what I need to your point on someone that you know maybe this is a recent situation they might not

[00:31:58] know as well but there isn't any budget like unless it truly is going to break the company

[00:32:04] whatever is needed for the person to be able to do their job is what you should do and

[00:32:09] that you know just from a fair and consistent and also knowing that a lot of folks with disabilities

[00:32:17] unfortunately are underemployed or skipped over for roles for promotions for different

[00:32:24] things like that and that just creates a whole societal issue and kind of perpetuates

[00:32:31] other problems and so those accommodations are just so critical but to your point

[00:32:37] they don't usually break the bank it's usually something fairly simple of just I need a floor lamp

[00:32:43] or I need a stool or whatever it might be and you know how easy that is to fix to be able

[00:32:49] to bring in folks with different ways of thinking about things different way of processing all of

[00:32:54] that so thank you for saying that as well. So many of these things are I'm sorry Katie

[00:33:03] but it's like what came to mind as I was listening is like we give people

[00:33:12] there's I love the equitable process and thinking of having a standard budget but it's almost like

[00:33:19] anything where we give people a budget their own like a stipend because they have a work at home

[00:33:25] need I feel like there everybody there's it wouldn't surprise me if everybody had some kind

[00:33:31] of accommodation that makes things easier for them to be their best especially I'm thinking of a

[00:33:36] remote or hybrid environment so many times we already give people additional resources for an

[00:33:42] extra screen or a specialized chair or all of these things to to make it make it easier for

[00:33:50] them to do their day-to-day tests and I think language is really important I think just the

[00:33:56] word accommodation can be intimidating and the big piece for HR professionals is trying to be a

[00:34:05] movie star and think that you're like the end all of everything like you don't it's not your job

[00:34:10] to know every discipline I'm talking about. I am a movie star. Come on. There's so many people

[00:34:17] that are because they don't know about accommodations don't want people to have the

[00:34:22] conversation because of their own issue like we don't talk about disabilities here because

[00:34:28] everybody's going to need an accommodation like are you listening to yourself right now I like

[00:34:33] number one first of all put trying to handle it all by yourself like get someone to help you start

[00:34:39] with that but then if everybody needs an accommodation and well guess what then they just need an

[00:34:44] accommodation and won't we be so great after we get them all in place. Yeah well you know

[00:34:51] what you bring up is something we talk about too is that connotation that comes with the word

[00:34:57] accommodation and so like if we can find a way to shift the corporate mindset around

[00:35:05] accommodation and what that triggers and what that means it would just make it so much easier

[00:35:11] if we could look at them as tools to be to perform your best in your role like

[00:35:18] if you're a graphic artist I'm not ever going to ask you to and expect you to do your job without

[00:35:26] your preferred software or just do your marketing and fundraising without a CRM or

[00:35:33] you know those types of tools that you need to actually perform the role and succeed in

[00:35:39] your job so if we look at the even something as simple as you know when you're talking about the

[00:35:47] extra screen or you know if we put them on the same playing field and say do you need two screens to

[00:35:53] most efficiently do your job yes okay great do you need a screen reader to most efficiently do

[00:35:58] your job yes great so if we put them on the same playing field then there isn't this sense of like

[00:36:06] accommodations or taboo but extra resources are okay um yeah I'll get off my soapbox no I mean

[00:36:16] that's about why we want to hear you it's not it's not a soapbox I mean I feel like again like when

[00:36:22] we're onboarding we go through a process of making sure people have things for their job

[00:36:26] but allow people to fill in the blank and stop giving people you know your three you know standard

[00:36:34] whatever clauses like number two pencil blue black and red ink like maybe I know what I need in order

[00:36:42] to get my job done because maybe I'm a grown-up maybe allegedly supposedly

[00:36:48] uh I uh I can't help myself because I always go to the HR language because that's just

[00:36:55] where my brain always is so but it it's such a good point like how are we thinking about

[00:37:02] this and talking about this because I mean even just something as simple as I want a mac versus a

[00:37:09] whatever non non-mac I don't even know what you want to call them anymore yeah what is that yeah

[00:37:15] what is that even um but it's funny because it is like our finance folks always want you know the

[00:37:20] the other laptop uh but I love the idea of just thinking of it as tools like how are we making

[00:37:26] sure that people can be successful in their role and going back to what both of you have said

[00:37:31] like we need to take away that scariness of just having a conversation of what is going to best

[00:37:38] help you to do the job what is going to help you be successful um I think that's just such a critical

[00:37:44] piece so uh you know I would love to know like from a advice for professionals that are in this

[00:37:52] space in HR uh you know I think Jackie just nailed one of them with you know get help but what

[00:37:57] are some things that you would recommend for HR folks who are facing some of these asks or I don't

[00:38:04] know where to start or how do I start the conversation in my own company how should they do that?

[00:38:18] There's no I mean it just depends where you're starting in the process you know

[00:38:26] shameless plug at Center for Disability Inclusion we put on a lot of uh we put out a lot of

[00:38:32] programming um we have a webinar that's coming up that's on digital content accessibility

[00:38:40] but we have monthly network meetings that we love to have guests come check us out

[00:38:44] this month we talked about how compliance and culture can work together for innovation

[00:38:49] and how you need both um and and how to start some of those conversations but our inclusion

[00:38:55] summit that's in September is all about it's our theme is audacious dialogues it is all

[00:39:00] about how to start these conversations so our keynotes and our learning sessions will all be centered

[00:39:06] around um these kind of taboo tough topics how to build the framework for them how to build the case

[00:39:14] how to prepare for the conversations how to create psychological safety um because you really have to

[00:39:20] first make sure that you've created a safe space to have those conversations um so I'd say

[00:39:27] if there's one if there's one answer it's it's look look there first what what kind of culture do you

[00:39:34] have for innovation conversation um you know honest honest dialogue and and fix that first

[00:39:44] awesome and and that I wasn't even trying to give you a softball to have you share all of that

[00:39:49] but I mean all those things are perfect so I think that's this is what folks you know need

[00:39:55] and and want to just be able to learn because I think it's also you know we talk about all

[00:40:00] types of diversity and I think for so many people it is I don't want to talk about it because I don't

[00:40:06] know what I'm talking about I'm afraid to approach it because I don't want to say the

[00:40:09] wrong thing or I mean even just the the term disability it has a certain connotation in

[00:40:16] some folks are like I am not disabled I am differently abled or I uh you know have

[00:40:21] special abilities you know certain language just you want to make sure you're you're saying the right

[00:40:26] things and doing the right thing so having a conference having some of these places where

[00:40:31] you can have that honest dialogue and have those open conversations and learn

[00:40:36] is huge so thank you for for doing that and and for starting those conversations

[00:40:41] because I think any way that we can do this the right way and teach people to do this right

[00:40:46] way is such a great thing to be doing so that is awesome so um would love to know

[00:40:55] what are you working on right now that you are most excited about 16 balls in the air right now

[00:41:16] you know I will say I really am enjoying um and the response from the school district

[00:41:22] on learning what resources and the equity of the distribution of their resources

[00:41:27] and giving them tools to try to meet the needs of students with sensory processing needs in the

[00:41:33] classroom and rather than sending them to the office or elevating them for behavior

[00:41:40] that's been a really fun ongoing project but I think from honestly we're we're

[00:41:46] we're neck chin deep in in our inclusion summit planning and it we are it's a collaborative

[00:41:55] conference so the Kansas City Chapter of NAP the Kansas City Chamber the D&I Consortium

[00:42:02] and us and we have been so intentional on how to demonstrate how to walk the walk so

[00:42:09] our we're demonstrating you know vendor supplier diversity and action in the way that

[00:42:14] we've chosen our vendors everything from the book fair vendor to all of our food

[00:42:20] and and just really integrating all of those aspects in and so putting together something

[00:42:26] this unique and pulling the people together that are going to be giving the content

[00:42:35] is just a really fun thing to see developing and you know it's it's gonna be it's gonna be

[00:42:43] it's gonna be awesome so it's ongoing it's it's not gonna sound like a one thing right now but

[00:42:50] you know the intentionality that we're putting behind it I think is gonna it's giving us something

[00:42:53] to be really proud of awesome very cool so we are ending our time with you here shortly but

[00:43:00] I would love to ask what is one thing you want to make sure that the folks listening

[00:43:05] heard one take away one take this action right now what is one thing that you'd like

[00:43:10] folks to know disability awareness is everyone's responsibility and it's okay to talk about it

[00:43:22] and you're going to with with disability being the most intersectional of all the identities that we

[00:43:28] protect in this space it impacts your entire workforce so it's it's a it's the right thing

[00:43:35] to do and it's a business thing to do and it's an innovation thing to do to start talking about

[00:43:41] it awesome thank you Jackie what you got I think don't steal this one Katie but

[00:43:49] I think what I'm taking away is as you're working from a HR perspective or HR BPE perspective

[00:43:58] helping with different things that are coming up I'm thinking about performance

[00:44:02] as you're looking and doing that performance audit make sure that you consider

[00:44:07] that there could be an underlying disability that potentially the person who you know is being

[00:44:12] affected doesn't even know yet just throw it out just let out you know friendly reminder of the

[00:44:19] benefits that we have that maybe people should explore start there because you can save a lot

[00:44:26] of grief and you can also save your company a lot of time and dollars just by being a better

[00:44:36] advocate for people and just doing just it doesn't like it doesn't take a lot just to get those things

[00:44:43] started and I think that to me that's the most important thing that I I took away as we look into

[00:44:50] performance feedback and becoming a culture of of of feedback and actually looking at those

[00:44:56] things can be helpful in more ways than one yeah I think for me you know I recently had

[00:45:02] a conversation with the leader and they said oh every time we're putting someone on a corrective

[00:45:06] action or a performance improvement plan all of a sudden they have an ADA issue and I was like

[00:45:12] or let's flip that around maybe the reason why we're now at performance so I think just your

[00:45:18] call out of is their performance changing because of something that you know is going on

[00:45:23] that maybe has changed for them or that they've recently been diagnosed or maybe hasn't

[00:45:28] been diagnosed yet and are we looking at kind of all of the things that might be going on externally

[00:45:34] there's as we all know a lot going on and a lot of mental health pieces just have been ignored

[00:45:40] for a very long time so I love that call out of don't just assume oh they're just not performing

[00:45:46] anymore there could be so many other pieces to this and so I really appreciate you saying that

[00:45:52] and you know calling that out for folks that are on the front lines um you know working with

[00:45:57] leaders on this so awesome so it's not always burnout it's not oh well

[00:46:05] um so yeah so Megan thank you so much for taking the time to meet with us where can

[00:46:15] folks find you if they want to connect with you um so you can find me on linkedin you can

[00:46:21] check us out at center for disability inclusion dot org and my email is pretty simple it's just m

[00:46:27] walls um m w a l l s at center for disability inclusion dot org awesome very cool uh well thank

[00:46:36] you for taking the time today to chat with us we really appreciate it this has been a very

[00:46:41] eye-opening very interesting conversation so so thank you uh having me of course uh so Jackie

[00:46:49] have a wonderful rest of your day me too i'm gonna be at home are you gonna be at home

[00:46:55] I am yes I am yes well actually I have to look at my claws trimmed because uh I broke one so yes

[00:47:03] but yes kind of at home uh thank you all for listening this is the inclusive af podcast

[00:47:10] bye bye

[00:47:15] hi my name is sarah and I want to tell you about my podcast called can I offer you some

[00:47:20] feedback I'm a business consultant and executive coach with over 20 years experience in change

[00:47:25] management leadership development and naturally providing feedback to high performers my podcast

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[00:47:35] avoiding or seeking feedback is essential for our development in each episode you'll hear

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[00:47:46] I'll also be sharing business bites with you simple explanations of organizational tools

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[00:47:56] you can listen to can I offer you some feedback on your favorite podcast app or learn more at

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