Getting Inclusive AF with Katee & Jackye - Episode 151

[00:00:00] You're listening to Inclusive AF with Jackie Clayton and Katie Van Horn. Hey y'all! Welcome back to Inclusive AF, the podcast where we make space for the hard combos, call out the BS, and talk about what's really going on under the surface. I'm Jackie Clayton. And I'm Katie Van Horn. What love. Did it just like you? That was great. It was perfect.

[00:00:28] Okay. Today, though, we're unpacking a situation that is no exaggeration, one of the most jaw-dropping immigration stories I've heard or seen in a long time. Yeah, I mean, we're talking about the Alien Enemies Act. I'm not gonna lie, I didn't know what it was. When I saw it, I was like really taken aback.

[00:00:49] But it's a law from 1798 that basically lets the U.S. government detain and deport citizens of foreign nations if we're at war. And that's what's being used right now in 2025 to deport Venezuelan migrants.

[00:01:08] And I guess it's not just Venezuelans. I mean, I think we're already starting to hear, excuse me, about a lot of these stories where current citizens, people with green cards, that type of thing, are getting deported. But let's just focus right now on the current administration and what they're doing with the Venezuelans. And what they're saying is that they are connected to this foreign terrorist organization called Trend de Aragua.

[00:01:37] Aragua? Aragua? It's Aragua. Okay. Aragua. And so they're, you know, pulling these people together and saying they're involved in this terrorist organization, which I think for all of us, if that was the case, okay, yeah, that makes sense that we would want them out of the country. But I don't think that maybe that's as accurate as they're portraying it. So let's untangle it a bit. You don't say. Don't say. Right. So here's the timeline.

[00:02:07] It was February 20th, a normal day in the year of our Lord 2025. And Secretary of State Marco Rubio designate the Trend de Aragua. It's also known as the TDAA, as a foreign terrorist organization. And so Trump takes that, runs with it, and basically he declares that the group is launching an invasion on the United States. And is now saying, hey, acting under orders.

[00:02:36] We're going to have to, you know, do something about this. And, you know, the regime that's in Venezuela, the Maduro regime is coming after us. So what are we. I'm pretty sure he just read a tweet that said that. I feel like that might be the case, but. Very much based on fact for sure. Yeah, there's no way that he read the full document. Like there's none. They said, hey, these people are terrorists.

[00:02:59] And he's like, OK, and I think that means they're involved in irregular warfare, which usually means guerrilla tactics, infiltration and espionage. And based on that, he invokes this alien enemies act. So I think the part that we all need to remember that you said earlier is that what this act is all about is when we are at war and the president needs to take action quickly to make sure we're safe and make sure we're OK.

[00:03:27] But unfortunately, we're not actually at. Maybe I shouldn't say unfortunately. Irregular war. Exactly. But we are not. We are not actually at war with Venezuela right now. And when we talk about invasion, warfare, hostile foreign actors, all of these things. This is where we open up the door for the wartime activities or wartimes law. That's a big stretch here. Right. I mean, I don't.

[00:03:54] I know everyone that listens are millions of fans are really brilliant, but the alien enemies act is part of the alien and sedition acts of 1778. Like when we hear about all those things that we try to like suppress as a country that we did, you know, internment camps, things like that. This was used in World War two against the Japanese, German and Italian immigrants that were detained here in the US.

[00:04:22] And and we could go into that as another topic on another day of some of the folks that were interned during World War two, which was not also not great and also very much a violation of human rights, civil rights. And, you know, we know all of the things that were wrong about the way that people were detained in World War two. And but but also this is. People know, though. I mean, I literally think some people don't believe that it's.

[00:04:52] At that time. No, we absolutely detained. I mean, even here in Arizona, we had Japanese internment camps that people were held at. And so if you don't know, yes, that is absolutely something that was happening is that Japanese, German and Italian immigrants were placed in these camps, similar to what was happening in Germany by the Nazis. I was gonna say camp. The word camp is doing a lot there. Yes. Sorry. Yeah. So when we. Pine Cove. No, no, we're not talking Pine Cove. What's that?

[00:05:23] In Texas, all the kids went to Pine Cove. Oh, I was like, is that like a babysitters club reference or something? It's like a bluebird, like a campfire girl camp. Oh, very nice. So, OK, this one is not that this is not like Holy Oaks of the woods. No, this is not what that was. So this is really, you know, unfortunately, that happened during World War two. We were in obviously in wartime.

[00:05:47] And so I think that a lot of people didn't go, wow, that's not OK at the time, because again, the the story or how it was. How it was presented was we have to, you know, put these people into the camps in case they are working against us. And acts of war and in a time of war. Right.

[00:06:05] But it's never been designated as, hey, we have these gang members here or, hey, we have people that happen to be living here that are Venezuelan expats or, you know, citizens that have now relocated to the US. And so, you know, here we are in 2025. And that's exactly what is happening.

[00:06:22] I think it's gross because we also know that the odds of the current administration, like having a cup of coffee and reading all of the laws just to like brush up in for their roles didn't happen. Somebody came on purpose, letting them know that this was happening.

[00:06:45] And under this, he said any Venezuelan age 14 or older who isn't a US citizen or greenholder and is a member of TDA is fair game. So it's completely broad. It's totally hard to verify. And this is a mess. Well, and I think, again, this is where like how do you verify that someone's a member of a game game? Right.

[00:07:13] For a terrorist organization, I should say. And so I think that's one of the pieces, but also 14 and older. Again, I know that, you know, this is this is entirely broad, but it's also, you know, they're able to be detained, restrained, secured and removed. That's not. That's not a slap on the wrist. Let us go through. No, that's military detention.

[00:07:41] That is literally putting them in some sort of detention camp. I think. Hmm. This is scary shit, people. Like, I don't know because they try to mask it by saying, oh, they're bad people. They were in a gang. Even if they were right. Let's say, you know, you would say these people came from Venezuela and they're part of a, you know, a gang.

[00:08:10] So we're going to send them back to Venezuela. That's what everybody thinks when you say deport. But actually, buckle up, kids. You don't have to send people back to the country where they come from. So these folks were flown to a high security prison in El Salvador. So wait. Okay. Sorry. Pause. So why El Salvador? That that's where, why are we sending people somewhere else without any type of due process?

[00:08:40] Right. I mean, P.S. It's known as like the worst prison like in the world. Like it. And to make it worse, these folks weren't tried. They weren't given access to counsel. They weren't proven to be affiliated with TDA. And some said they had no idea what TDA even was. I mean, to be fair, I'm sure I wouldn't. Nobody's going to fess up and say, oh, yeah, I was a part of it. But that's why we try to go through due process. Right.

[00:09:08] And then, you know, I think the fact that now the president of Venezuela, so President Maduro, he's coming in. He's basically saying these people were kidnapped and he's not wrong. Right. So, you know, he said the people that were not gang members, they need to be returned. They need to be, you know, given due process, all of these things. And so now it's this whole just it's it's a kidnapping. And that's the way it's being framed from the Venezuelan government. Well, and to make it fun.

[00:09:37] Now we've got a diplomatic mess because Venezuela suspense the repatriation flights. So people can't go. And then the oil license for Chevron got pulled literally Chevron. No, you can't get any oil. And now we're back in oil politics, sanctions and migration drama. Like I don't like people.

[00:10:05] This is the FAFO like people are literally prepared. They're prepared. To have things against the United States and they're pulling it like in a second, like. It's only been two months, people like this make the fact that this has even happened at all. It's it's wow. And, you know, I think this is the question that I have is. Where is the evidence that these people are a part of this gang?

[00:10:35] Where is the evidence that they're a threat? Why are there no receipts? And I think we all know the answer to that. But. Where are the receipts? I mean, there were no criminal charges against the people that were deported, to be clear. There was no official gang affiliation data released. And some of these people were asylum seekers like fleeing violence and got branded as terrorists.

[00:11:02] And I think the other part for those of you who are listening, the. This is just where we're at right now, and this is just the wackadoo-ness that is going on constantly. A federal judge then puts in a temporary, a temporary stay on the deportations and. And but the flights are already on the way to El Salvador. So how does that even happen or what what do you do at that point? No, but like turn your ass around there or whatever. Right.

[00:11:32] Land and get on a bus. Like I don't. That's not this. That's not an excuse to not give people due process. Right. I mean, it is a full disregard. And that should concern everybody when the president's going against the actual laws that are protecting us. Everybody needs to be worried. Well, and I think. The real issue here that I think we all need to keep an eye on is.

[00:12:02] I don't think there's anyone in the U.S. that is like, you know what? We have bad actors. We have people that are doing bad things in the U.S. Because of course they we don't want them here. They they should be in a prison or they should be wherever deported, whatever it might be. If we have proof that that is actually happening. But these are, as you said, asylum seekers, other people. Now, maybe they caught one or two that were part of this group as part of this mass deportation.

[00:12:32] But this can this concerns me. I don't know. I think it should concern everyone when you have this whole situation where it's just kind of a random group of people. They go, oh, you're originally from Venezuela. All right. Go over here in this on this bus. Get on this plane. I think adding to that is that it's so sad to think that. There are people.

[00:12:59] That were fleeing violence and they actually got stuck to this prison. That's literally the largest prison in Latin America. It was built for 40,000 inmates. 40,000. There's no outdoor space. There's no visitors. And people think it violates people's human rights. Like this is not.

[00:13:26] I mean, I don't I don't see how this can just get worse. It just keeps getting worse and worse and worse. Well, let's add one more. One more log to that fire. The other part about this is that this prison is actually called the plan. OCO. Yeah. Which stands for zero idleness. So it's basically this is a work camp. So for those of you who have.

[00:13:52] Gone to any place outside of the US where there were work camps, you know, in. In a Mia. The work camps are very different than the death camps and the camps. It's basically you are doing 24 seven work. You're doing construction. You're doing agriculture, textile manufacturing, different things all for government contracts for the Venezuelan government or not. I'm sorry for the El Salvadorian government. Right. I know.

[00:14:21] It's easy to get that mixed up. But it's it's it's a work camp. I. Yes. And they're making uniforms for schools, for police, for hospitals. They have a literal running factory there that makes like over 8000 garments a day. They have inmates fully weight working. I don't know if this sounds familiar for like nothing.

[00:14:49] Building desks doing plumbing milking cows. Then and and again, this is forced labor. This isn't stuff that they're like, oh, let me sign up to go make whatever they are being forced to do this work. And the only thing the only incentive for them, there's no pay. It's you get two days off your sentence. That's the only incentive that they have for doing this work 24 seven. Well, you'll love this.

[00:15:19] This sounds familiar. Some said that the inmates are grateful for the things that they're learning there. Right. But then just like in any system, there are others that have been convicted without a trial or evidence. You know, they don't have access to the Internet. They don't have access to phone calls. And even with the space for 40,000 inmates, there's a problem with overcrowding. Of course.

[00:15:44] And I think the other part that we have taken into consideration is that we're paying for this. Right. That you have to have them actually. And that's the only thing that we have to do is to be constantly kept in these prisons. So not only are we imprisoning people that maybe should not be there, but you know, there's no criminal conviction. As you said, there's no due process that has occurred. We're basically paying the U.S. Government is paying.

[00:16:10] So that means every one of us is paying to have these people outsourced for punishment. I think that's gross. I mean, it's it's. And it sends a really bad message. I mean, when we were kids, we all had to memorize what was on the Statue of Liberty. You know, send us retired, you're poor, you're huddled masses, you're learning to be free. And then when you look at it, this is fitting that pattern of no, don't actually come here.

[00:16:39] We're going to criminalize migration. We're going to connect immigrants to terrorism and then use fear to push policy. I mean, we already do that with the black and brown disabled and all the various people that are from this country. Now we're just bringing it even wider. Absolutely. And I think this is one of the. The buttons that was happening during the election cycle, it was look at all these dangerous

[00:17:07] people crossing the border and look at all these people. And again. We know that those folks are here in the U.S., but I also call out we have a lot of domestic terrorists. So, yes, there might be people crossing the border that are bad actors, but we have a lot of people in the U.S. that are bad actors as well in a no way, shame or form immigrants or whatever it might be.

[00:17:34] And so I think this whole rhetoric during the election cycle is I'm the only one that can keep you safe. All of these dangerous people. I mean, we all know that the during the original election cycle that the current administration was started off with all these rapists coming from Mexico, all these drugs coming from Mexico. Like we know that that's been the rhetoric from day one from our current president. And this.

[00:18:04] Oh, I'm the one that's going to fix it for you. And all of these folks went, yep. He's the only one that could do it. I mean. And this is the one that like, to be clear, they're talking. Are you OK? Yeah. OK. They're talking about this one specifically because of I'm thinking about, you know, they're Venezuelans, but there was a I'll give the source because I don't know what it was. It's like DW news on.

[00:18:34] But what they were doing, I was looking at some of the international news. There was a guy from Germany that had his tourist visa. He was going to Mexico and then flying into the United States before returning home because he was on vacation when he got to the United States, even though he had a travel visa, they detained him and saying that he didn't have all of the papers that were necessary. He was there for 12 days in prison for 12 days. And sorry for breathy.

[00:19:03] If you can hear breathy over there, that's Dakota. Can you hear? Yeah. The other thing that happened was there was a woman from Canada. Same bit. She was in prison for like 15. It was one of them was 12 and one of them was 15 days. An actress from Canada was detained because they were looking at all of their papers like they're literally being incentivized by the arrests that they make and the people that they're looking to deport. I mean, they're doing all of this to try to keep us safe.

[00:19:31] But if our civil rights are violated, then how are we safe? You know, that's not safe. That's theater. And the fallout is there's real lives being destroyed, families being separated, and our human rights are being trampled. It's only a matter of time. Right. And I think that's the piece is it's the so what now? Where do we go from here? What should people be paying attention to? Because I think, you know, all of these episodes where we're trying to highlight stuff for folks

[00:20:00] of, hey, keep an eye out for this. Hey, make sure you're watching this because you might be like, I have heard a lot of these stories, but a lot of them seem like they might not be real. Or is this just something that was, you know, someone put online on a tick tock or on whatever just as a like, oh, we're, you know, they're coming after us. No, this is really happening. And so, you know, what, what should people do? What should they pay attention to?

[00:20:27] Well, and me and Katie are going to go over a couple of things, knowing that this is not our, we are not law lawyers. We're not giving any legal advice. So I don't want anything to be interpreted as that. But I would say start with watching how the courts respond, because the judge has been very clear about what he's trying to do. And he's like, you know, he's saying F-A-F-O and he's really getting mad. So whatever way that he gets treated, I'm really concerned about that.

[00:20:57] Like, watch how the courts respond. Watch how the proclamation is going to be challenged. Watch how, you know, what's being enforced. And I think also watch what they're doing to this dude, the judge, who told them that he shouldn't have sent them because all of this should scare us. I don't want people to be like, I want people to be aware. I say scare. I want people to be, this should heighten your awareness.

[00:21:20] Well, I think it is, it is, it is scare because there is this whole piece of this is continually the narrative of this. Hey, we're trying to frame this in such a way that it is. The boogeyman is coming to get you and we are going to save you. And we're the only ones who can save you. So it's very much a, you know, here's what we're going to do to fix all the things.

[00:21:47] And, you know, when we see that the media is framing this in a certain way and that, you know, depending on what media you're watching, I should say. And, you know, are we seeing this? We need to, you know, there's probably sources. Well, there are sources that are framing this as, hey, national security win. This is great. We're getting all the bad guys out. And then you also have other groups that are saying in other media sources that are saying, no, this is a human rights violation. And that narrative matters.

[00:22:16] Like, how is this being framed by our media? Because we know that people are consuming media as fact. And depending on who's reporting on it or who's pushing a specific narrative, depending on what side of politics they're in, that narrative can be very, very different. And I think we've seen this, unfortunately, for years where depending on what news you're watching, you're getting a completely different story.

[00:22:41] We, me and my executive producer were talking about this just this morning about the messages that we're getting when people are passionately wrong. Right? Like, it's, we're trying to share this because so many people are passionately wrong. And putting these things out there, it's terrifying, terrifying to think that this is happening because you have to ask yourself, like, if they can use this kind of policy on one group and they can determine that those people are.

[00:23:11] And so it's worth it in a lot of conversation. And that's the thing, I think, you know, if these people are terrorists. Then who's next? Because laws like this don't stay in their lanes. And they're obviously trying to say they're above the law. And, and I think that's the thing is, you know, as you said earlier, we're not attorneys. We're just trying to learn more and figure things out. And, you know, we can't let the fear justify injustice.

[00:23:35] I think that's the piece is that we're trying to say, how do we go learn more about these things and encourage people to learn more about these things? Because if we don't know the answers and I think you and I can both say, like, we're reading this with a lens and we're trying to understand it more. We're trying to dig in more. There are probably pieces that we don't know. So we're not saying we're the experts on this topic.

[00:23:59] It's, hey, we're looking at this. We encourage you all to look at this as well. And at least bring a little bit of clarity because the other part is fucking do your job. Because why the fuck do we have a 1798 whatever from World War II? It's a just in case, right? To be clear, 1798 was way before World War II, Jackie.

[00:24:24] No, I'm just saying, OK, if the last time we used it was World War II. In 1940 to 45, yes. Shouldn't we take it out now? Yeah. Why are we still doing it? Or shouldn't we have done it in, OK, then why didn't we take care of it in 1804? Correct. And also, why are we using these types of things to go, oh, yeah, we can justify doing what we want?

[00:24:49] Why do we have laws where people can take away our civil rights anywhere? Anywhere. It's like those old outdated laws, like in Texas. Like you can't drink unless you have food on Sundays before 12. You can do it at home, but not at public establishments. So you go to the places and they all have like carrot sticks and celery.

[00:25:16] That's how they can like sell the alcohol for the football games. But otherwise, it's illegal. Like, can we all just get over ourselves and just be adults here? Because, I mean, you also can't buy liquor on Sundays in certain places. Oh, we threw that out in Arizona in like 96 or 97 because we were like, oh, no, we definitely need alcohol. Because I think it was before noon on Sunday. You couldn't buy it. But now it's just- Well, now y'all went all the way to the devil's lettuce. Y'all did. Yes, we did.

[00:25:45] There's devil's lettuce all over the place in Arizona. But I would also say like, I think there's a law in the books still in Arizona. I could be wrong. I know that like, I haven't looked at this recently, but there was a law in the books that two or more women could not reside together because it was considered a brothel. Shut up. Like, even like sisters couldn't live together or that or legally they were not, they're not supposed to. And I think that, I think that's still on the books, but I could be wrong.

[00:26:15] But you know, brothels, that's what we're all about. That's what we're all about. But so when we had our like slumber party last week. Yeah. Oh, side gig. I mean, it is, I'm just saying it is the time of the side gig. Yes, that is true. Now, just to clarify for the executive producer and others. Right. There was no side gig happening. There was no exchange.

[00:26:43] No exchanging of anything, right? Other than, I mean, there was a lot of cuddling that you did here in. So we had a little doggy cuddling and we did exchange, you know, like a book or two, maybe a. That's true. But can we just agree that if we have laws when we weren't even the United States during the time of colonies, they're probably outdated and we can take them off. Can we agree? I mean, let's start with the two of us. The two of us agree.

[00:27:14] Yes. We have an agreement on this. But, you know, I think here's the deal. You know, I'm sure that there are questions that people have from this conversation or you might even be like, Katie and Jackie are nuts. And that's okay. We would love to hear your thoughts. We are slightly. Askew. Yeah. Askew in the head. But that's okay. But I think that's part of this conversation.

[00:27:39] And that's why we're doing these episodes the way that we are more recently. You know, we haven't had a ton of guests on. We have had some great guests on. And so, but I think it's also, we're just digging in like everyone else is to go, what the heck is going on here? And I think that's what all of us need to be doing. It's just asking that question of what's going on. So, you know, we'll link to the full proclamation in the show notes so that people can read it yourselves.

[00:28:05] And I think that the biggest piece is, as Jackie said earlier, looking at this from a, what is the legal next step that's going to happen? Keeping an eye on it and making sure that you are. I know, you know, we talked about this a few weeks ago. You can't concentrate on everything. Right. Trying to give you some things that we're seeing pop up that we're like, oh goodness, have you seen this? And letting people know when it does come up.

[00:28:34] This is not just about shipping illegal people who are in the country illegally and deporting them to their home country. This is about who gets to determine what's a foreign terrorist group organization. How do you determine if somebody is a member? Giving people due process. The use of a colonial act. The El Salvador prison. Diplomatic backlash from Venezuela.

[00:29:03] How it affects our own oil and human rights concerns. Like, this is the messiest mess. And people are trying to make it as simple as, oh, well, they shouldn't have been here illegally. They weren't. Some might have been. But not under these things. And also, one of the things that no one can tell us is what is an irregular war and who gets to determine that? Is that a formal thing? Is that a Marco Rubio thing? Because Trump doesn't know anything about it. His words don't like it.

[00:29:32] Yeah. I'm sure he's doing a good job. What's good to note for folks is that Trump said something along the lines of, I trust Marco. I don't know what he's doing. Which we all know he doesn't because he stood up in front of the joint chair. He stood up. I don't remember what that was called. The state of the line. Yeah. And said, if we have a problem. He literally said in front of the world, if there's a problem, we can blame Marco Rubio before we even got started. So anyways.

[00:30:02] All right. Jackie. Jackie. Yeah. What is one thing you want folks to have heard in this episode? Do the work. Do the math. Like, educate yourself. I just want people to educate themselves and try to peel the onion because none of what is... All we're ever going to get at best is surface. And that's partly because that's all we have time to get. You know?

[00:30:28] We know that the media isn't doing the best. Right. But we also know that they don't have time to go over on this particular story. There's so much going on in the world. And I just want you to educate yourself and know these things are going on and start paying attention because this is the hot button today. We haven't seen as much detail. We're going to the next thing.

[00:30:55] And it's important to know that the real thing is we have to make sure that our rights are intact. Okay? That was like 47 things. I know you said the one thing. And I'm going to call something out to the audience. Jackie always says that I piggyback on what she says. And it's because she has 92 things. To be fair. It's a little hard to be like... Right. You get a pack. I can't let you come up with something completely different than what Jackie just said. You've covered all of it. I think for me, it's also just, you know, we can't trust politicians right now to...

[00:31:25] To tell us... To tell us... To tell us... To tell us... Honestly. On any side of the aisle. So we have to do this work ourselves to go, what do the documents say? What is actually happening? And really stay informed. Stay as loud as you possibly can be. And then also stay inclusive AF. Oh, I love that. And share this with other people. Yes. Absolutely. Share the recording. Share this.

[00:31:54] If there's anyone who thinks that immigration issues don't touch them, let them know. That's all. And if you have an idea for a future show, if there's anything you want us to dig in on, because we're picking these, we know that we can't do all of the things either. If there's one that you want us to pay special attention, please let us know. Just put it in the comments or respond to one of our social posts. Awesome. All right. Perfect. Well, this is Katie Van Horn. And this is Jackie Clayton.

[00:32:23] Bye.