Getting Inclusive AF with Brittany S. Hale

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_00]: You're listening to Inclusive AF with Jackie Clayton and Katie Van Horn.

[00:00:09] [SPEAKER_02]: All right, welcome, welcome.

[00:00:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Hi, Jackie.

[00:00:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Hi, how are you doing, Katie?

[00:00:15] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm good.

[00:00:16] [SPEAKER_02]: I see that you're sitting in a new location.

[00:00:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Are you...you are at home though, yes?

[00:00:20] [SPEAKER_02]: This is for the flood.

[00:00:22] [SPEAKER_03]: So I'm sitting actually in the sitting room where one sits.

[00:00:26] [SPEAKER_02]: In the flood zone?

[00:00:27] [SPEAKER_02]: You're not in the flood zone?

[00:00:28] [SPEAKER_03]: In the flood, right.

[00:00:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I'm just staring.

[00:00:30] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm sitting in front of the window staring.

[00:00:33] [SPEAKER_02]: How much rain have you...have you...you guys have had rain over anything?

[00:00:36] [SPEAKER_03]: We've had like a tenth of an inch.

[00:00:37] [SPEAKER_03]: It doesn't count.

[00:00:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[00:00:39] [SPEAKER_03]: But we're still under flood warning.

[00:00:41] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm in Texas.

[00:00:42] [SPEAKER_03]: We're talking, right?

[00:00:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Hurricane Barrel came last night, hit landfall in Houston and so I'm just sitting by the

[00:00:52] [SPEAKER_03]: window.

[00:00:53] [SPEAKER_03]: I was like, I think I'm going to do the podcast inside just in case.

[00:00:56] [SPEAKER_03]: So I don't run across my office.

[00:00:59] [SPEAKER_03]: My office is out across, but you're not in your office either today.

[00:01:02] [SPEAKER_02]: No, I...well, it's very sunny here and so I needed to sit in my sitting room as well because

[00:01:08] [SPEAKER_02]: it was so sunny in the office.

[00:01:10] [SPEAKER_02]: So you know that the office gets very warm because it's 400 degrees out in Arizona.

[00:01:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[00:01:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Literally.

[00:01:19] [SPEAKER_03]: And I become a meteorologist.

[00:01:20] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm an instant meteorologist, scientist.

[00:01:24] [SPEAKER_03]: I will let you know how it's going around the world.

[00:01:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, that's yeah.

[00:01:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Partly cloudy.

[00:01:29] [SPEAKER_02]: And on radar, radar alert for all of Houston because we have a few members there but yeah,

[00:01:40] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not...I would say I'm a junior meteorologist.

[00:01:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Not...I'm not a full blown.

[00:01:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I still need a lot of work because again, I'm used to Arizona where it's like, oh,

[00:01:49] [SPEAKER_02]: it's hot or it's not hot.

[00:01:51] [SPEAKER_02]: There are only two options we have.

[00:01:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Like those are the only two things we really have.

[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_02]: I love when they have the meteorologists like every day on the weather and it's like, oh,

[00:01:59] [SPEAKER_02]: it's going to be hot again today.

[00:02:00] [SPEAKER_02]: And you're like, thank you.

[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks.

[00:02:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Super helpful.

[00:02:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Anyhow.

[00:02:04] [SPEAKER_02]: All right.

[00:02:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Enough about the weather.

[00:02:08] [SPEAKER_02]: So Jackie, this is the Inclusive AF podcast.

[00:02:11] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if you're aware.

[00:02:12] [SPEAKER_02]: No, I'm glad to hear that.

[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_02]: And I am Jackie Clayton.

[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, very good.

[00:02:16] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm Katie Van Horn.

[00:02:17] [SPEAKER_02]: So this is all good.

[00:02:18] [SPEAKER_02]: So now that we have all that dialed in, you know, usually we forget to do that entirely.

[00:02:24] [SPEAKER_02]: So at least we have that part dialed in.

[00:02:26] [SPEAKER_02]: But we have a guest with us today that I want to turn over and introduce.

[00:02:31] [SPEAKER_02]: So Brittany would love for you to introduce yourself and share a little about who you

[00:02:34] [SPEAKER_02]: are.

[00:02:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Hello, hello.

[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_01]: So I feel a little left out, although it is hot here, but I am based in the Northeast.

[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_01]: But hello, my name is Brittany Hale.

[00:02:46] [SPEAKER_01]: I am founder and CEO of BND Consulting.

[00:02:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And I focus on helping women in leadership gain the clarity that they need to lead their

[00:02:57] [SPEAKER_01]: teams with confidence and make the strategic decisions that are going to allow them to

[00:03:02] [SPEAKER_01]: both excel in their roles and boost their organization's success.

[00:03:07] [SPEAKER_03]: I love that.

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I read that because I was like, oh, now I need clarity when I saw.

[00:03:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[00:03:17] Yes.

[00:03:17] [SPEAKER_03]: A lot of times we don't know the clarity that we need in order to build this.

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_03]: So I'd love to hear more about why you started your consultancy, like what was the gap?

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_03]: What's common?

[00:03:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes, yes.

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_01]: So I am a happily retired trial attorney.

[00:03:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And I say that was pride, but being trained as a lawyer and then eventually moving into

[00:03:41] [SPEAKER_01]: being a trial attorney, you are only successful as your ability to identify the root cause

[00:03:49] [SPEAKER_01]: and to develop the solution.

[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I was very adept at that.

[00:03:56] [SPEAKER_01]: I'd never lost a case that was practiced for years.

[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And eventually I realized the key to winning the case was really in jury selection.

[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_01]: And it was that ability to lean into what used to be called that soft skill, right?

[00:04:14] [SPEAKER_01]: The emotional intelligence necessary to identify the gap between what people said

[00:04:19] [SPEAKER_01]: and how they operated.

[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And not only that, but understanding the relational dynamics between everybody who

[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_01]: ended up on the jury and developing a narrative that was responsive to that.

[00:04:32] [SPEAKER_01]: And I did that in-house for a while and I realized that most organizations are

[00:04:37] [SPEAKER_01]: just scaled out juries.

[00:04:38] [SPEAKER_01]: There's always that gap between what they say and how they operate.

[00:04:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And I know the both of you know a whole lot about that.

[00:04:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And I found that in working with organizations, I built out an HR department

[00:04:51] [SPEAKER_01]: for a $40 million organization.

[00:04:54] [SPEAKER_01]: I've led, I've led organizations myself that were not, you know, my own.

[00:04:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And I found that we were very often creating a budget line item for bad management.

[00:05:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And we were not preparing people.

[00:05:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Because I'm about to pass the fuck.

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm literally like, thank God, someone's getting it's not a line item.

[00:05:20] [SPEAKER_03]: There's five.

[00:05:21] [SPEAKER_03]: Correct.

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Side line items.

[00:05:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Correct.

[00:05:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And so and so it was very frustrating because again, as an attorney, I came in

[00:05:28] [SPEAKER_01]: after the bad decisions were made, right?

[00:05:30] [SPEAKER_01]: But I have to develop the narrative to figure out how we got here.

[00:05:34] [SPEAKER_01]: So then my questions, you know, through depositions are this question

[00:05:37] [SPEAKER_01]: and answer session under oath.

[00:05:39] [SPEAKER_01]: So you have this deposition and I'm reading through it.

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm just like, well, why did you make that decision?

[00:05:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Why did we do this?

[00:05:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Why did no one intervene?

[00:05:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Why do we have people in leadership who may have been high performing individuals?

[00:05:55] [SPEAKER_01]: They may be subject matter experts, but that does not

[00:05:58] [SPEAKER_01]: a people manager make.

[00:06:00] [SPEAKER_01]: So how do we reconcile the two?

[00:06:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And very often the organizations that have come in and provided

[00:06:07] [SPEAKER_01]: strategic advisement to would say, well, you know, we don't

[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_01]: we don't have an L and D budget.

[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And they said, well, you don't you don't have a strategy for growing

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_01]: your organization because I can guarantee you it's going to get expensive

[00:06:23] [SPEAKER_01]: when this person is relying on their common sense

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_01]: and their subjective life experience to identify who's capable,

[00:06:32] [SPEAKER_01]: who has potential, who's high performing and how do we identify

[00:06:36] [SPEAKER_01]: those benchmarks of success?

[00:06:38] [SPEAKER_01]: So so yeah.

[00:06:40] [SPEAKER_01]: So I decided to move into that.

[00:06:42] [SPEAKER_01]: So B and D consulting B and D stands for be nobody's darling.

[00:06:47] [SPEAKER_01]: And that is it's taken from one of my favorite poems by Alice Walker.

[00:06:51] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's my challenge to myself and to my clients to focus on

[00:06:59] [SPEAKER_01]: developing those frameworks for decision making that actually matter,

[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_01]: that are actually going to move the needle.

[00:07:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Get clear.

[00:07:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Right. I say clarity and conflict are the two most underrated

[00:07:14] [SPEAKER_01]: tools to growing an organization and keeping it successful.

[00:07:17] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's my my hot mic moment.

[00:07:19] [SPEAKER_03]: So I think she just solved all the problems in the world.

[00:07:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I want to go back to this budget piece and just

[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_02]: highlight this because I think you're calling something out that I think a lot

[00:07:32] [SPEAKER_02]: of new leaders or new executives don't know that payroll is your most

[00:07:41] [SPEAKER_02]: expensive budget item.

[00:07:43] [SPEAKER_02]: And people are your most expensive budget item.

[00:07:47] [SPEAKER_02]: So you know, just the CFO's viewpoint on.

[00:07:51] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I think saying, hey, we have a line item around bad management.

[00:07:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I made my head go, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_02]: You have to do that.

[00:08:02] [SPEAKER_02]: You have to like plan for who's going to mess up?

[00:08:05] [SPEAKER_02]: What is it going to cost us?

[00:08:06] [SPEAKER_02]: And this is also when I talk to leaders about HR and why HR is important.

[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_02]: It's that like we can save you money by not getting us sued.

[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_02]: We can save you money by getting the right leaders in place, all of these things

[00:08:18] [SPEAKER_02]: retaining the right folks.

[00:08:20] [SPEAKER_02]: So I love that you call that out because I think a lot of folks forget about

[00:08:23] [SPEAKER_02]: that or miss that part.

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_02]: So but correct.

[00:08:26] [SPEAKER_02]: But then let's talk about it.

[00:08:27] [SPEAKER_02]: That's it.

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:08:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And again, you know, HR is very often focused on compliance and is not seen

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_01]: as a revenue generating vertical.

[00:08:39] [SPEAKER_01]: So therefore from a CFO's perspective, it doesn't make sense to put resources there.

[00:08:44] [SPEAKER_01]: However, we know that HR is about more than compliance.

[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Right?

[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Did we interview one of each?

[00:08:51] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, did we do what's federally and state compliant?

[00:08:54] [SPEAKER_01]: But there's a growth element to it.

[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is something that's starting to emerge within the past few years.

[00:09:00] [SPEAKER_01]: We've seen people operations and and you know, we've seen a lot of focus

[00:09:05] [SPEAKER_01]: put on that because we're belatedly understanding what many HR professionals

[00:09:09] [SPEAKER_01]: know, which is that's where it starts.

[00:09:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And when you bring someone into an organization, if you know, what do they

[00:09:19] [SPEAKER_01]: say an ounce of a pound of prevention or ounce of prevention is worth a

[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_01]: pound of pain or whatever it is?

[00:09:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Like that's the space.

[00:09:29] [SPEAKER_01]: That's your opportunity to plug into this person and to help them kind

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_01]: of shrug off their framework for decision making that's informed by

[00:09:39] [SPEAKER_01]: their unique world experience and help and provide them with the support

[00:09:46] [SPEAKER_01]: that they need.

[00:09:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Because again, once you're managing people, if you grew up in a conflict

[00:09:52] [SPEAKER_01]: of verse or conflict avoidant environment, you hear conflict and you think fighting.

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_01]: You hear conflict and you don't see an opportunity.

[00:10:02] [SPEAKER_01]: So you shut it down.

[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And in so doing, create spaces that are highly activated, very low trust.

[00:10:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And then that turnover happens and going back to the HR turnover gets expensive.

[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_01]: We can't have people cycling out before we've received a return on our

[00:10:21] [SPEAKER_01]: investment in them, which takes what 12 months, 18 months, depending

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_01]: on the level at which you're hiring them.

[00:10:29] [SPEAKER_01]: So now if we have this revolving door, it doesn't make sense.

[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not good business sense.

[00:10:36] [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't have, you know, it doesn't further the financial goals of the organization.

[00:10:40] [SPEAKER_01]: So how do we set aside resources in a way that's going to further

[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_01]: the organization's objectives and that that requires a little bit of commitment

[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_01]: to focusing on things outside of just what's immediately in front of you.

[00:10:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, and I think when you say that.

[00:11:02] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm thinking about our listeners that maybe they are individual contributors

[00:11:06] [SPEAKER_03]: or they're not in HR or they don't have that leadership in how it shows up.

[00:11:11] [SPEAKER_03]: They were we're not talking a literal line item that says we're going to

[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_03]: spend five thousand dollars on right.

[00:11:21] [SPEAKER_03]: Our second management.

[00:11:22] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it manifests itself in a lot of different ways.

[00:11:26] [SPEAKER_03]: I've been studying a new way of doing engagement and looking at it.

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_03]: A lot of times it looks like pizza parties or days off or all of these

[00:11:40] [SPEAKER_03]: things that have an actual cost to the organization and that we have

[00:11:45] [SPEAKER_03]: to put together as human resource professionals.

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_03]: And yet when we're like, these are the people that are trainable

[00:11:51] [SPEAKER_03]: and these are the people that are not and you hear, but they've

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_03]: been here for three years and you're like, OK, we just added that's another

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_03]: line item of what it's going to cost plus to replace plus to retrain

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_03]: and all of that knowledge.

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_03]: If I told you that decision that you just made is going to cost us

[00:12:09] [SPEAKER_03]: about eight hundred and seventy five thousand dollars.

[00:12:13] [SPEAKER_03]: Correct. They would look at you like you, you know,

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_03]: we're growing bananas out of your ears.

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_03]: And then and but later we all have to fix that situation,

[00:12:23] [SPEAKER_03]: whether it's individual contributors, other people with HR and then all of a

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_03]: sudden it's not what can we do to prevent this from happening?

[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_03]: It's it's who's the next person that we can try?

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Who's the next round peg that we can put in square hole to try to do that?

[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. And that's how the glass cliff happens, right?

[00:12:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Because we we say, well, this is how we've always done it.

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_01]: And my question to my clients is, OK, well, then why am I here?

[00:12:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Because it's the way that you've always done things.

[00:12:55] [SPEAKER_01]: It's what's working.

[00:12:56] [SPEAKER_01]: You wouldn't need a shift, but OK, we say great.

[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to put women in leadership without any support,

[00:13:06] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, without any concerted thought about providing them with resources.

[00:13:11] [SPEAKER_01]: So great. Katie's phenomenal.

[00:13:15] [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to put Katie in leadership.

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Katie's not going to be provided with an executive coach.

[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Katie's not going to be provided with any sort of L&D budget.

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Katie's not going to be able to do an assessment of the team that she is inheriting.

[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_01]: So now Katie's standing in front of a group of 200, you know,

[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_01]: or even smaller, let's say a group of 50 folks

[00:13:42] [SPEAKER_01]: expected to lead them without having any context on how to build trust.

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_01]: What motivates these people?

[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, most people are motivated by one of three things that work,

[00:13:51] [SPEAKER_01]: power, affiliation or achievement.

[00:13:53] [SPEAKER_01]: If you don't know that going in as a leader,

[00:13:58] [SPEAKER_01]: you're set up for failure.

[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_01]: So then, you know, 12 months out, Katie's unable to hit the goals.

[00:14:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And then we say up.

[00:14:09] [SPEAKER_01]: We tried it, right?

[00:14:11] [SPEAKER_01]: We tried to put women in leadership.

[00:14:12] [SPEAKER_01]: It just didn't work out.

[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Bring Bob back in.

[00:14:16] [SPEAKER_03]: I, my, it's my husband.

[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Direct quote right there.

[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Let's bring Bob back in.

[00:14:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Bob always does that.

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_03]: That is a direct quote.

[00:14:23] [SPEAKER_03]: I think it's John, but Bob, I, Todd likes to call me Mr.

[00:14:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Brown. That's what he said when I get called in.

[00:14:31] [SPEAKER_03]: And he always asked me, did they ask for Mr.

[00:14:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Brown or did they just want Jackie to come in and, you know,

[00:14:37] [SPEAKER_03]: smile and offer cake?

[00:14:38] [SPEAKER_03]: Or do they want Mr.

[00:14:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Brown, which means you're going to have to back up and let me do

[00:14:42] [SPEAKER_03]: what I need to get this done.

[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_03]: And I don't want to hear anything about it.

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_03]: And I will get, I will give you what you asked me for.

[00:14:49] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't want to hear anything about it and we're going to move

[00:14:50] [SPEAKER_03]: on once we get there.

[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_03]: Is everyone understand that?

[00:14:54] [SPEAKER_03]: And, and it's difficult to be in that position.

[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_03]: But I do want to go back to something that you said when

[00:15:00] [SPEAKER_03]: you were talking about conflict.

[00:15:03] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think this is a different culturally.

[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_03]: I see this within different age groups.

[00:15:08] [SPEAKER_03]: And guess where you are culturally?

[00:15:11] [SPEAKER_03]: We were talking about being a parent, like being a parent with

[00:15:15] [SPEAKER_03]: my children to this day.

[00:15:17] [SPEAKER_03]: There's a certain tone in my voice and my children will come.

[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_03]: You are 21 and 23.

[00:15:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Stand right by my side and be like, what's happening?

[00:15:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_03]: There's a certain amount of conflict that is a level of

[00:15:31] [SPEAKER_03]: safety and we have to look at it when you're hearing

[00:15:34] [SPEAKER_03]: conflict. It's an opportunity to get things right

[00:15:37] [SPEAKER_03]: and to make those choices.

[00:15:39] [SPEAKER_03]: But it's unfortunate, especially in teams.

[00:15:42] [SPEAKER_03]: And I want to hear this leads to a question, especially in

[00:15:45] [SPEAKER_03]: teams where some people are more

[00:15:49] [SPEAKER_03]: driven through conflict and understand the outcome.

[00:15:52] [SPEAKER_03]: And you see them where it's like, I feel so happy that we

[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_03]: had this conflict because now we have the solution.

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_03]: And then you see the other half that are dejected and

[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_03]: miserable and upset.

[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_03]: What do you how?

[00:16:04] [SPEAKER_03]: What do you suggest for leaders that see this

[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_03]: kind of split in the organization to try to get

[00:16:11] [SPEAKER_03]: everybody on the same page?

[00:16:13] [SPEAKER_01]: So the first thing that you need to do to get everyone

[00:16:16] [SPEAKER_01]: on the same page is use the same definition.

[00:16:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Right. We all have been in that space where we've

[00:16:22] [SPEAKER_01]: said a word and assume that everyone had the same

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_01]: understanding of that meeting.

[00:16:27] [SPEAKER_01]: So conflict when I speak about conflict with my

[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_01]: clients is conflict is the energy that's created by

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_01]: a perceived gap, emphasis on perceived between

[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_01]: what we want and what we're expecting.

[00:16:43] [SPEAKER_01]: That's how we're talking about conflict.

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Conflict is not blame.

[00:16:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Conflict is not fighting.

[00:16:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Conflict can be expressed in many ways.

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_01]: But when we're talking about this, huh.

[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_01]: OK, so then the question becomes, what were you

[00:17:00] [SPEAKER_01]: expecting and what are you experiencing?

[00:17:03] [SPEAKER_01]: I say and that's how we get to the root of it.

[00:17:06] [SPEAKER_01]: So when one example that I use often is

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_01]: I worked with an organization and there was a director

[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_01]: who I don't I'm not exaggerating when I say would run

[00:17:20] [SPEAKER_01]: over their own mother if it meant getting credit.

[00:17:23] [SPEAKER_01]: This is someone that was highly motivated by

[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_01]: achievement. They need it.

[00:17:28] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, call it the Gold Star complex.

[00:17:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And so there were other directors who had direct reports

[00:17:35] [SPEAKER_01]: and this director, you know, would have tons of

[00:17:38] [SPEAKER_01]: conflict with with them.

[00:17:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And the teams couldn't work together.

[00:17:43] [SPEAKER_01]: That's not sustainable, right?

[00:17:45] [SPEAKER_01]: You can't have whole verticals not communicating

[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_01]: with each other because directors are in conflict.

[00:17:52] [SPEAKER_01]: So what do we want?

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_01]: We may want to hit our individual goals.

[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_01]: This individual director, what do they want?

[00:17:59] [SPEAKER_01]: They want credit, right?

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_01]: What are they experiencing?

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_01]: People who are not willing, people who are obstructionist

[00:18:07] [SPEAKER_01]: in their mind, right?

[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_01]: So the other directors, what are they experiencing?

[00:18:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Frustration, overwhelm, complaints from their team

[00:18:16] [SPEAKER_01]: because it's other directors, you know, inserting themselves

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_01]: and, you know, there's a sense of ownership.

[00:18:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Right? This is my my job.

[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_01]: My project, why is other director telling me what to do?

[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't report to them.

[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_01]: So then when we we get into that that space

[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_01]: and Jackie, to your question, how do we deal with that?

[00:18:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, my question is, OK, what do we want?

[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Because externally someone interacting

[00:18:43] [SPEAKER_01]: with the organization is not like, you know,

[00:18:49] [SPEAKER_01]: the Mark coms team, the marketing and communication

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_01]: team superb, you know, product development team.

[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_01]: No one's thinking about that.

[00:18:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Either they have a good experience with the organization,

[00:19:01] [SPEAKER_01]: with the product, with the brand or they don't.

[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_01]: That's it. Am I getting my money's worth?

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, am I getting whatever it is that I was told?

[00:19:12] [SPEAKER_01]: I should expect. Are you fulfilling the brand promise?

[00:19:15] [SPEAKER_01]: So now in terms of conflict, where's the opportunity?

[00:19:20] [SPEAKER_01]: So I had a conversation with this director

[00:19:22] [SPEAKER_01]: who's again highly activated and always ready to, you know,

[00:19:27] [SPEAKER_01]: go off, right?

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And so we started having this conversation and they said,

[00:19:33] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, I'm just so tired of trying to prove myself.

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And I said, OK, well.

[00:19:41] [SPEAKER_01]: At what point was your inherent worth as a person ever at issue?

[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Who are you proving yourself to?

[00:19:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Right. So we see that this person,

[00:19:51] [SPEAKER_01]: they're holding on to this experience

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_01]: of being a first generation immigrant in a community

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_01]: where they were one of the only, right?

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And constantly having to demonstrate that they were capable

[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_01]: and constantly fighting for their humanity

[00:20:12] [SPEAKER_01]: to be recognized and respected.

[00:20:15] [SPEAKER_01]: That's not this. Right.

[00:20:17] [SPEAKER_01]: So we had to really reset that.

[00:20:20] [SPEAKER_01]: So now their goals, it wasn't just so much about

[00:20:23] [SPEAKER_01]: you get the credit in as much as you're able to collaborate with others.

[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_01]: You're raised, your performance, all of that is wholly predicated

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_01]: on your ability to collaborate with other people because it's not just you.

[00:20:38] [SPEAKER_01]: So when we're talking about conflict again,

[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_01]: if I were conflict diverse or conflict avoidant,

[00:20:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I would say, oh my gosh, this person is shouting.

[00:20:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to log out of the Zoom.

[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to say, who do you think you're talking to?

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Right. We would have gone down another path.

[00:20:56] [SPEAKER_01]: But being conflict curious is, oh, where did that come from?

[00:21:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Right. And so then we got to build trust because this person's now sharing

[00:21:04] [SPEAKER_01]: like a very deeply rooted experience.

[00:21:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Certain 30 years out of, you know, formal education,

[00:21:13] [SPEAKER_01]: but they're still holding on to this and it's impacting work.

[00:21:17] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's why I say, you know, being conflict curious is so critical

[00:21:22] [SPEAKER_01]: because you have to, again, get clear and understand what we're actually solving for.

[00:21:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Are we going to owe you a copay?

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_03]: I feel like I'm going to listen to this over and over.

[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, are we in a therapy session right now?

[00:21:36] [SPEAKER_02]: It feels like it.

[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Are we talking to me? Did you have access?

[00:21:40] [SPEAKER_03]: I've just got a new security thing.

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if I've been using it right, but I feel seen and heard.

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_03]: But it's true. What you're talking about,

[00:21:50] [SPEAKER_03]: I it's one of the things that I hear a lot at work and Katie, tell me if you hear this

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_03]: where people say I didn't want to get in trouble.

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_03]: No one has answered this to me in 20 years.

[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_03]: What is trouble? Right.

[00:22:01] [SPEAKER_03]: What do you mean get in trouble?

[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Because I've gotten I have gotten in trouble.

[00:22:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And when we talk about women and them presenting people.

[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, women and them presenting people, especially don't even get me

[00:22:13] [SPEAKER_01]: started on the eldest daughter syndrome.

[00:22:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if anybody else is an eldest daughter, right?

[00:22:17] [SPEAKER_03]: But we're both youngest.

[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_01]: So OK, so you say you got to you got to benefit from the trials and tribulations.

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. Yes.

[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_01]: But but you know that the space of as a woman,

[00:22:31] [SPEAKER_01]: as a them presenting person in the workplace, work really hard,

[00:22:36] [SPEAKER_01]: keep your head down and hope and trust that someone else will notice.

[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And if you advocate for yourself, well, humility is really important.

[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Right. And then my question is, well, can you be humble about your purpose?

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't I don't know if that's the case, but why do we require this of women at work?

[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_01]: We require the same skill set, but we ask for women, but don't talk about it.

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Don't talk about it and lead, but not that way.

[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_03]: Right. And I don't even know what that means.

[00:23:17] [SPEAKER_03]: I think it's something interesting.

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_03]: I worked for all women up until I was, I guess, like 35.

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_03]: So there was a lot of things I didn't know.

[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_03]: I didn't know better.

[00:23:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Like I just didn't know.

[00:23:29] [SPEAKER_03]: I just didn't know what the rules were at work,

[00:23:33] [SPEAKER_03]: which made me really difficult.

[00:23:35] [SPEAKER_03]: But I was too late by then.

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I can't do any of this.

[00:23:40] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know what to talk about.

[00:23:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Like Jackie, you're asking so many questions and I'm like, well, I have them.

[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_03]: So answer them if you answer them faster, we can get through this.

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_03]: But but then it's not a good necessarily a good example of what the reality is

[00:23:58] [SPEAKER_03]: for other people of having it, like wanting to understand these things.

[00:24:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Do you think that it's changed in any form?

[00:24:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Do you see have you seen it change?

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_03]: Let's just look at, you know, the last four years will say like since COVID.

[00:24:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Have you noticed any change in it or have is it been the same?

[00:24:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Because we hear a lot of noise, but I don't know what the impact has been.

[00:24:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so it's gone up and down.

[00:24:23] [SPEAKER_01]: So when we talk about change and again, I'm I'm a millennial, right?

[00:24:28] [SPEAKER_01]: So I've benefited from Gen X and Boomer mentors

[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_01]: who each have had different perspectives.

[00:24:36] [SPEAKER_01]: But very often when we've plugged in their focus on legacy.

[00:24:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And so they're like, here are all the things not to do.

[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Here are all of the things that I wish I didn't do or didn't, you know, experience.

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I would say within the past four years,

[00:24:51] [SPEAKER_01]: we've had and again, due to an emphasis on equity

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_01]: and the racial reckoning after 2020.

[00:24:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And it felt so hopeful and amazing.

[00:25:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And organizations seem to really get it.

[00:25:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And then we had the pandemic and the pandemic.

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Among being a lot of things was really kind of the testing ground

[00:25:15] [SPEAKER_01]: for organizations and leaders to show improve.

[00:25:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Can you compete?

[00:25:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Does your organizational culture compete with the culture of what's going on at home?

[00:25:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Is your leadership strong enough to withstand?

[00:25:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I've led a completely remote organization before, right?

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_01]: So how do you build trust with someone who's literally in another country?

[00:25:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And what we're starting to see is the answer to that is no.

[00:25:43] [SPEAKER_01]: People people didn't, you know, trust that because we've seen, you know,

[00:25:48] [SPEAKER_01]: the emphasis on return to work policies.

[00:25:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Because we haven't been curious, right?

[00:25:53] [SPEAKER_01]: We haven't gotten clear on what we wanted to achieve.

[00:25:55] [SPEAKER_01]: During that time, it was OK,

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_01]: you're we're experiencing Zoom fatigue,

[00:26:03] [SPEAKER_01]: but we're not developed.

[00:26:04] [SPEAKER_01]: We're not creating environments to develop professional.

[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_01]: So that experience of, you know, popping into someone's office

[00:26:10] [SPEAKER_01]: or like the water cooler talk folks who either had their whole college

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_01]: experience online or a majority of it, they didn't benefit from that.

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And so now we throw the baby out with a bathwater and say,

[00:26:26] [SPEAKER_01]: well, that's we just need to everybody to come back in office.

[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, I need to see butts and seats because I need to trust

[00:26:34] [SPEAKER_01]: that you're working.

[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_01]: So we have that.

[00:26:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And then we have generative AI,

[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_01]: which is incredibly useful, except when we're talking about leadership.

[00:26:48] [SPEAKER_01]: We're looking at people who want to supplant human connection

[00:26:52] [SPEAKER_01]: for artificial connection, and that is a huge issue.

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And I look at, you know, a lot of these like the tech bros, right?

[00:27:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Who just we don't even we don't need people.

[00:27:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, there's an air of like being a relational reject, right?

[00:27:09] [SPEAKER_01]: You've not been able to connect with people to create

[00:27:13] [SPEAKER_01]: an artificial girlfriend who will say all of the right things.

[00:27:15] [SPEAKER_01]: You create an artificial environment that you have soul control over

[00:27:21] [SPEAKER_01]: because you aren't resilient enough to deal with

[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_01]: situations and factors outside of your control.

[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_01]: So once come to women, we're starting to see women being ousted out of leadership.

[00:27:33] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, they were good enough to help us in a crisis.

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_01]: But now that things are starting to level out, well, again,

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_01]: what was it? Bring back Bob.

[00:27:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Bring Bob back in.

[00:27:47] [SPEAKER_01]: This was this was great, Jackie.

[00:27:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Amazing. Thank you so much for your help now.

[00:27:54] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, now we need the real leaders back in here.

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Right. I think that's the piece that's also like there.

[00:28:02] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, you mentioned the glass cliff earlier, and I think there's

[00:28:05] [SPEAKER_02]: also this piece that I've seen time and time again is we've tried everything.

[00:28:10] [SPEAKER_02]: So let's, you know, as our last ditch effort, we're going to bring in a woman

[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_02]: and get different, no resources, give her no training, give her no money,

[00:28:18] [SPEAKER_02]: give her nothing. And if she doesn't pull it off, then we'll know women can't do

[00:28:22] [SPEAKER_02]: this job. Well, this is put by this one situation or, you know, put in whatever,

[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, whatever a descriptor you can use women is whatever because I think

[00:28:32] [SPEAKER_02]: it's how many times have we heard that? Oh, we tried diversity.

[00:28:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, we tried to have a woman in leadership. We tried to do these things.

[00:28:39] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I think there's also this we're expecting miracles from folks without

[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_02]: giving them the right attention and time and also saying to them, you have to be

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_02]: flexible. You have to adapt. You have to do all of these things without

[00:28:56] [SPEAKER_02]: giving them the tools to do that. And it's just unfortunate because I

[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_02]: think that's one of the pieces as well. Like what are we actually doing to

[00:29:04] [SPEAKER_02]: teach them how to have that constructive conflict to teach them how

[00:29:08] [SPEAKER_02]: to not be, oh my gosh, you know, this person just yelled. So now I am going to

[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_02]: shut like you said, shut down my Zoom walk away, whatever it might be versus,

[00:29:17] [SPEAKER_02]: okay, let's ask more questions and let's be curious. So I think that's just

[00:29:23] [SPEAKER_02]: there's so many layers to this conversation that folks we could talk for hours

[00:29:29] [SPEAKER_02]: about it because I think there's just so many. Yeah.

[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Because yeah, it just it's interesting. But when you think about coming into an

[00:29:38] [SPEAKER_02]: organization where they do have where Bob has come back, let's say poor Bob,

[00:29:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know why we're picking on you. Where Bob has come in and it has been, oh,

[00:29:49] [SPEAKER_02]: we tried that thing. It didn't work. So now we're going to bring in Bob.

[00:29:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Hey, during the pandemic, yeah, we had certain people step in, but

[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_02]: now we're going to go back to what we know. How do you pull back from that or how do you

[00:30:02] [SPEAKER_02]: work with an organization in that situation? So the way that I work with that,

[00:30:10] [SPEAKER_01]: an organization like that typically, and this is the beauty of kind of self selecting,

[00:30:16] [SPEAKER_01]: right, is I am very clear. So I will, for example, I default to,

[00:30:22] [SPEAKER_01]: oh, your boss. What's her name? Right? Because there's no reason for me not to assume that a

[00:30:28] [SPEAKER_01]: woman would be in leadership. But if Bob and I are engaging, he says, look, we tried,

[00:30:33] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, we tried the DEI thing. We tried, you know, all of that. It didn't work.

[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_01]: My question is what didn't work? What were you expecting and what happened?

[00:30:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Because I know organizations that have perhaps a decades long finance strategy. So

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_01]: what did we expect to happen in 12 to 18 months with DEI? Did we expect to solve racism?

[00:31:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Did we, you know, this is a, this organization has been around for 100 plus years, right?

[00:31:11] [SPEAKER_01]: 50 plus years. How much time did we expect to dedicate to this?

[00:31:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Bob, what's your tolerance for change? You want things to go back? Okay.

[00:31:26] [SPEAKER_01]: What was really great about the way things were before?

[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And is your subjective need for control a business strategy?

[00:31:38] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay. But you're gonna have to say that because if I say that to Bob, he's going to be very upset.

[00:31:44] [SPEAKER_01]: But again, the, the cure, I'm endlessly curious and, you know, I have it on my, my site.

[00:31:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I am going to ask a lot of questions. If you cannot tolerate being asked questions,

[00:31:56] [SPEAKER_01]: we won't work well together because, and again, I'm trained in the Socratic method, right?

[00:32:02] [SPEAKER_01]: We arrived to conclusions through examination and inquiry. What are we so afraid of learning?

[00:32:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And is that the thing that's holding the organization back from growing?

[00:32:18] [SPEAKER_01]: We live in an incredibly global world, right? We know in just a year,

[00:32:28] [SPEAKER_01]: millennials are going to be a majority of the workforce. We have Gen Z that's going to

[00:32:32] [SPEAKER_01]: occupy a certain amount of the workforce. They're going to be here. They're not going anywhere.

[00:32:39] [SPEAKER_01]: How do you want to engage with them? Do we want to just brush off, you know, 30% of our work?

[00:32:45] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, these kids don't want to work these days. Okay. What does work look like to you?

[00:32:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And also, these are your kids. So if they don't want to work, it's because you

[00:33:01] [SPEAKER_01]: haven't really taught them the value of it. So what are we doing? What are we solving for?

[00:33:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Those are some of the questions I would ask Bob. I feel like I love that response. And I also

[00:33:19] [SPEAKER_03]: feel like there's a lot of DEIB programs that work exactly the way that they were designed.

[00:33:26] [SPEAKER_03]: We had more voices. We had more conflict. We had more innovative ideas and we had people

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_03]: that were at peace. And I think that people's peace is very uncomfortable for certain groups of people

[00:33:38] [SPEAKER_03]: when you're not used to that. Like I was used to you when you were, I liked you better when

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_03]: you were quiet and didn't talk to anybody. But now you're talking about things and it

[00:33:48] [SPEAKER_03]: makes me very uncomfortable. So Bob, Robert, see his friends. Those are, it's the devil you know.

[00:34:02] [SPEAKER_03]: It's what you are familiar with. And because we know why what the conflict is with change or

[00:34:09] [SPEAKER_03]: how change a verse, because we've all, you know, anybody who's tried to change payroll

[00:34:13] [SPEAKER_03]: from anything to anything knows that it's conflict a verse. People are a change a verse.

[00:34:20] [SPEAKER_03]: People come out of the woodworks who haven't talked in public in years will come and tell you not

[00:34:25] [SPEAKER_03]: to change your payroll software. So we know what it is within the organizations. But I do like,

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_03]: of like, what was the expectation and what, what, you know, versus what the outcome is.

[00:34:41] [SPEAKER_03]: And when you put it in those things of what the program is, I think a lot of the programs were

[00:34:45] [SPEAKER_03]: successful. They just didn't go to that. They didn't have an understanding of what that was going to

[00:34:51] [SPEAKER_03]: look like. And now and now what, you know, we solve the initial ask and now what are we supposed

[00:34:58] [SPEAKER_03]: to do with that? And then they want more engagement, which is hilarious, like engage with you. Like

[00:35:02] [SPEAKER_03]: for what? I don't under, I don't know. I'm one of those people I've worked at home for

[00:35:06] [SPEAKER_03]: now for, I don't know, close to 20 years. So I don't know. So there's a lot of things that

[00:35:11] [SPEAKER_03]: are really difficult for me to try to understand because I am one of those people that, you know,

[00:35:17] [SPEAKER_03]: don't like being in the office. I would prefer not to have to engage in the office.

[00:35:23] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know what it is. It's something on some spectrum somewhere where it's like

[00:35:26] [SPEAKER_03]: the omniber amniber. Yeah, I just am not like, I'm on several boards and

[00:35:34] [SPEAKER_03]: nonprofit boards. And one of the things that is always, I try to make very clear, I don't join

[00:35:39] [SPEAKER_03]: these boards to make friends. Like I'm not going to see you outside of the board. Like I'm just,

[00:35:44] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't mean to be rude to any of y'all on this board. Don't ask me to come hang out with you.

[00:35:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Like I'm not on the board to make friends and I feel the same way at work. Like I,

[00:35:52] [SPEAKER_03]: I am going to be friendly, but that I don't want to go to lunch with you and I don't

[00:35:56] [SPEAKER_03]: want to have coffee with you. And so I think there's a lot of people that did find that

[00:36:00] [SPEAKER_03]: they could be at more peace from being at home. And that same thing that makes the leadership

[00:36:06] [SPEAKER_03]: comfortable or is making is what's making other people uncomfortable where I don't want it. I

[00:36:13] [SPEAKER_03]: cannot live in denial if I have to go and see all of the leadership in that hierarchy,

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_03]: like we can pretend that things don't exist because I don't have conflict with myself

[00:36:23] [SPEAKER_03]: at home where I have to say something or do something. And I, and I, but I do like the

[00:36:29] [SPEAKER_03]: point of bringing it like these are your kids. That's what you made. So

[00:36:36] [SPEAKER_03]: and people say they don't relate well.

[00:36:40] [SPEAKER_02]: That's why that's the part I think for me that is also resonating is like yeah,

[00:36:45] [SPEAKER_02]: these are your kids. And it's also the how many leaders will say to oh,

[00:36:50] [SPEAKER_02]: we need to bring them back in the office because we can't trust them or we don't know what they're

[00:36:54] [SPEAKER_02]: doing or we don't. And I'm like, I don't care how much time any of my team members take off.

[00:36:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Just do your work. Do your work. Meet your goals. Have a great time. What do we want?

[00:37:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I want the work to be done. Yes. Or so if Susan has, you know, a powerful four hours

[00:37:15] [SPEAKER_01]: from eight to 12 and then from six to 10, she's, you know, doing whatever because she

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_01]: has childcare and all of that in that block. I don't care if the work is being done.

[00:37:30] [SPEAKER_01]: But if you're so wedded to a system that we already understand research shows

[00:37:38] [SPEAKER_01]: that it's not how people work. That's not how a majority of folks work.

[00:37:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you want the work done or do you want the work done in the way? Is it necessary for you to buy key

[00:37:49] [SPEAKER_01]: stroke software so that you can understand what people are, who's reviewing that?

[00:37:56] [SPEAKER_01]: How much time are you spending, you know, to do that. But the other part of it is

[00:38:03] [SPEAKER_03]: this is the thing that I think it's important to understand about how leadership went through.

[00:38:08] [SPEAKER_03]: It's like what I want is, I want to be like my dad, grandpa, cousin, and I want to go in and

[00:38:16] [SPEAKER_03]: physically tell somebody what to do and watch them do that so I can have an illustration of power

[00:38:21] [SPEAKER_03]: outside of the company being successful because part of that success means I don't have to work

[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_03]: and I force other people to work. And I don't think- And Jackie, I'm so glad, I apologize

[00:38:32] [SPEAKER_01]: for interjecting, but I'm so glad that you shared that because it's what I call the Don Draper

[00:38:37] [SPEAKER_01]: effect. In Mad Men, Don Draper waltzes into the office. He says, give me ideas. He puts his feet

[00:38:46] [SPEAKER_01]: up on the desk, has a brandy, sexually harasses the women in the office and is brilliant. And what

[00:38:55] [SPEAKER_01]: you highlighted this, I want to do what people did before me without examining whether or not

[00:39:02] [SPEAKER_01]: it actually worked and what could we have achieved but for these limitations, right? So I

[00:39:12] [SPEAKER_01]: have to do this because that's how people did it before me. We have to go- I worked in an

[00:39:17] [SPEAKER_01]: organization where every Thursday the men in the office would go golfing. And I said to someone

[00:39:24] [SPEAKER_01]: before I said, how do you know that I don't have golf clubs in my car right now? I've not been

[00:39:28] [SPEAKER_01]: invited. I don't see any women going with you. And to your point, Jackie, you say, I want to work.

[00:39:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to be like, likability has been that thing that's advanced many people's careers, right?

[00:39:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Because it's- I don't want to objectively see are you a high performer or not? And if you're not

[00:39:51] [SPEAKER_01]: a high performer, well, you know, they've got great potential and their potential is solely

[00:39:55] [SPEAKER_01]: predicated on my ability to tolerate them and I like them. And the guy said, oh, well, you know,

[00:40:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean it's just like- it's just a way for guys to decompress and like it's like we want to get

[00:40:09] [SPEAKER_01]: away from our wives. And I was like, I'm not married to anybody here. Right. Right. So again,

[00:40:17] [SPEAKER_01]: those- the questioning and then shortly after that, at least officially, you know,

[00:40:23] [SPEAKER_01]: the discussion of the Thursday golf outings, they didn't happen. But these are people who

[00:40:30] [SPEAKER_01]: left the office a little bit early, right? So objectively, they're not doing as much work

[00:40:37] [SPEAKER_01]: as other people because this is what makes them comfortable. So to your point, like the Don

[00:40:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Draper effect, we have to move past- the benchmark for success can't be comfort.

[00:40:50] [SPEAKER_03]: That is absolutely right. And it's also why DEIB is so important and the next- the next

[00:40:58] [SPEAKER_03]: reckoning that we have, it has to go further than that because what we're seeing is a pattern that

[00:41:04] [SPEAKER_03]: started with slavery to now. It's the same thing. That's why we have to talk. And a lot of

[00:41:10] [SPEAKER_03]: organizations when we had our, you know, this one year where people were paying more attention

[00:41:17] [SPEAKER_03]: two years, maybe three years or paying attention weren't able to go as deep as necessary in order

[00:41:24] [SPEAKER_03]: to break the patterns where we were trying to look at systemic patterns because we call it systemic

[00:41:28] [SPEAKER_03]: patterns instead of white supremacy and racism that happened when you started stealing people

[00:41:33] [SPEAKER_03]: and forcing them to do things beneath them because you didn't want to deal with it. It's

[00:41:37] [SPEAKER_03]: just another version of that. And to be clear, that goes across races and genders because

[00:41:44] [SPEAKER_03]: that's the example of leadership that we're trying to switch. And it changes when you have people

[00:41:49] [SPEAKER_03]: that honestly just want to go to work, do their job and go home. People have no idea what to do.

[00:41:56] [SPEAKER_03]: The first time someone asked me that in HR, like, we were like, oh, what are you inspired by? And

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_03]: they were like, I'm inspired by my paycheck and I just want to get my paycheck and go home.

[00:42:04] [SPEAKER_03]: And I was like, I don't even know what- that is not in the Shurm book and I don't know what to

[00:42:08] [SPEAKER_03]: do with that. There is no chapter on people who just do their job. There is not a chapter.

[00:42:15] [SPEAKER_01]: So for them, it might be freedom, right? Like I value freedom, which means again, this- I'm not

[00:42:23] [SPEAKER_01]: motivated by achievement. I want to get in, get my paycheck, get out. And leadership has always-

[00:42:31] [SPEAKER_01]: it's been about coercive power, right? I can brute force, get your butt in the seat.

[00:42:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to withhold resources from you and extort you. And we have people who are not responding

[00:42:45] [SPEAKER_01]: to that. And there is a leadership crisis because we don't know what to do. Well, if the Don Draper

[00:42:53] [SPEAKER_01]: model doesn't work, well then what do we do? Well, and I think taking your example

[00:42:59] [SPEAKER_02]: once that further, we know what happened with Don Draper. You know, he-

[00:43:05] Correct.

[00:43:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Like you get outdated, you lose that direction, you lose power. And I think that's part of it too.

[00:43:14] [SPEAKER_02]: You are talking about power and that's where I always go is that it's this, I have to assert

[00:43:20] [SPEAKER_02]: my power over someone to show that I'm the boss versus like someone just said to me last week,

[00:43:27] [SPEAKER_02]: well, Katie you're the head of HR. So like, you know, people are going to do- and I was like,

[00:43:32] [SPEAKER_02]: oh yeah, I don't really think of that. Like I'm more like, hey, we're all just working together

[00:43:36] [SPEAKER_02]: and trying to like do cool stuff. And, but it's true because I'm like, I don't look at it

[00:43:41] [SPEAKER_02]: from that perspective or from that viewpoint. I'm like, no, we all contribute in our own way.

[00:43:46] [SPEAKER_02]: And so how do we also value that differently? And like the whole like

[00:43:51] [SPEAKER_02]: someone asked last week, what are the core hours for the company? And I was like,

[00:43:56] [SPEAKER_02]: we're a global company. That's not a thing. Yeah, that'd be a thing. Like I can say, oh,

[00:44:02] [SPEAKER_02]: well you have to work every day from 4am until noon to make sure that you can cover Europe.

[00:44:08] [SPEAKER_02]: And they would all laugh me out of the room. But yeah, I don't know. But I would love to know

[00:44:14] [SPEAKER_02]: if you could share, you know, what are one or two things that you would like our audience to

[00:44:20] [SPEAKER_02]: have heard during this episode or things that they can take away and kind of that

[00:44:23] [SPEAKER_01]: call to action, whatever you'd like to share. Yeah, so I would say again, clarity and conflict

[00:44:32] [SPEAKER_01]: are probably what's holding you back. You probably lack clarity. It's not a judgment.

[00:44:40] [SPEAKER_01]: It's okay. And conflict, your ability to withstand conflict is seen as an opportunity

[00:44:46] [SPEAKER_01]: instead of an obstruction and something to be avoided at all costs. It's probably

[00:44:53] [SPEAKER_01]: what's impeding you. And then, you know, again, examine your relationship with power.

[00:45:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Right? Do you rely on coercive power, right? brute force, I tell you what to do.

[00:45:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Your legitimate power, your title. And you know, what's motivating you at work and how can you

[00:45:15] [SPEAKER_01]: leverage that to become a better leader? Awesome. Jackie, what you got?

[00:45:23] [SPEAKER_03]: This is real deep, Katie. I know. I don't know. I mean, right now I am focused on,

[00:45:33] [SPEAKER_03]: you know, as a person within Gen X and figuring out because that's kind of like the stage we're

[00:45:40] [SPEAKER_03]: at right now, right? Within a majority of leaders and it is very interesting on the impact.

[00:45:49] [SPEAKER_03]: And really, I mean, because we laugh about it all the time, but because, you know,

[00:45:53] [SPEAKER_03]: we were the ones that they had commercials and told their parents to hug them and also

[00:45:58] [SPEAKER_03]: ask them, do you know where your kids are? Because they literally didn't hug us and they

[00:46:02] [SPEAKER_03]: didn't know where we were and they couldn't call us because we didn't have cell phones

[00:46:04] [SPEAKER_03]: and we didn't tell them where we were. We said, good luck and also you want to get home.

[00:46:07] [SPEAKER_03]: And so as a result, you know, we have, we are helicopter parents that did not have parents,

[00:46:15] [SPEAKER_03]: didn't know how to parent. So how does that affect how we micromanage leaders? Don't trust

[00:46:22] [SPEAKER_03]: the ability to do those things. How are those things showing up at work?

[00:46:28] [SPEAKER_03]: And also I really appreciated conflict curious and being conflict curious,

[00:46:35] [SPEAKER_03]: which just cracks me up because it's like, oh,

[00:46:43] [SPEAKER_03]: because it makes me think and that is my mother, like coming back to laugh at me. I think that

[00:46:48] [SPEAKER_03]: phrase, she always would say, she would say, unless you're going to come directly to me,

[00:46:53] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to assume everything is okay. And she used to tell me, I know you're not talking

[00:46:58] [SPEAKER_03]: to me like that because I did nothing to you. And I'd be like, oh, so then I'd have to say this

[00:47:04] [SPEAKER_03]: is what's happening, but it's still smart to be like, whoa, all I did was click yes on the zoom and

[00:47:12] [SPEAKER_03]: all of a sudden now we're here, we're all supposed to be leading toward the same goal,

[00:47:15] [SPEAKER_03]: but something's going on that's going to get in the way. So I think getting more curious,

[00:47:20] [SPEAKER_03]: instead of just sitting there typing about like, oh, such as such seems really angry,

[00:47:25] [SPEAKER_03]: is being, has starting a conversation of getting curious. Instead of just accepting that somebody

[00:47:31] [SPEAKER_03]: is in a bad mood of getting curious. And I think a lot of people do that, especially with the zoom

[00:47:37] [SPEAKER_03]: meetings. So I don't know that was like 35 things. I hope I picked up on a little bit.

[00:47:42] [SPEAKER_02]: I was just going to point out, I might just start my first point Brittany is that,

[00:47:47] [SPEAKER_02]: yes, we are the youngest, but we're also Gen X. So basically our parents didn't even know

[00:47:52] [SPEAKER_02]: we existed. Yeah, we weren't loved. It's a miracle that we are. The fact that we're still alive

[00:47:59] [SPEAKER_02]: and walking this earth is just that alone is a win. Because I'm pretty sure my parents were

[00:48:06] [SPEAKER_02]: just so tired by the time I was of age that they were like, just don't die. Like that's all I ask

[00:48:11] [SPEAKER_02]: for a few shirts, but just make sure you get home at some point, you know,

[00:48:17] [SPEAKER_02]: they had you to distract your siblings. Yeah,

[00:48:21] [SPEAKER_02]: yes, exactly. Yeah, baby, get married, whatever. Yeah, just leave me out of it. But

[00:48:29] [SPEAKER_02]: all jokes aside, I think it's also exactly what you both are saying is this,

[00:48:34] [SPEAKER_02]: not just like conflict, curious, but also the being okay with conflict. If someone is raising

[00:48:41] [SPEAKER_02]: their voice or someone is questioning or pushing or whatever it might be, it's being curious about

[00:48:47] [SPEAKER_02]: that. But also being okay with it because I think so many of us when someone does raise their voice

[00:48:52] [SPEAKER_02]: or does go, well, that's not right, Brittany, you're wrong and here's why we immediately shut

[00:48:57] [SPEAKER_02]: down or go on the defense versus, okay, tell me more about that or say more words. And then

[00:49:03] [SPEAKER_02]: that the last one is also the please don't make people come to the office. That is all,

[00:49:09] [SPEAKER_03]: that is all. Yeah, yeah. And also like you're just brilliant, Brittany, I think you're brilliant.

[00:49:16] [SPEAKER_03]: I really want the biggest thing is just to like listen to your voice. I think you have such a

[00:49:21] [SPEAKER_03]: unique point of view that that is really clear to understand and so many people don't get it.

[00:49:27] [SPEAKER_03]: That's why I was like, we should, we could have shut down, you know, turn this off at minute

[00:49:30] [SPEAKER_03]: seven. I was done. I had work to do. I got a new assignment. I need to get over here and talk to my

[00:49:39] [SPEAKER_02]: team right now. I was actually thinking normally, you know, you have that meeting with your therapist

[00:49:46] [SPEAKER_02]: and then come back in two weeks and tell them all the things that you've done from what you

[00:49:50] [SPEAKER_02]: talked about. So Brittany, we'll be coming back in two weeks. I will be checking in, you know.

[00:49:57] [SPEAKER_03]: We can't afford your hourly rate, but if you can get it to our system, we'll put a payment plan.

[00:50:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Do we get a friends and family discount at this? I was just going to say there's the inclusive AF

[00:50:07] [SPEAKER_02]: discount, you know, that we're working with. Awesome. So Brittany, how can folks find you? How

[00:50:14] [SPEAKER_02]: can they work with you? Where do they need to look to find you? Absolutely. So if you go to

[00:50:20] [SPEAKER_01]: BND, as in B Nobody's Darling, consulting.group, you will find me and there's a section that says

[00:50:28] [SPEAKER_01]: let's talk and we can figure that out. You can find me on LinkedIn, Instagram, Instagram, and

[00:50:36] [SPEAKER_01]: threads and Twitter, X, but we'll call it Twitter, all at BND Consulting. So I'm really excited

[00:50:44] [SPEAKER_01]: to connect with whoever's listening. Awesome. Very cool. Well, Brittany, thank you. This was

[00:50:50] [SPEAKER_02]: an awesome conversation. Really appreciate it. We have our therapy notes now. We have our

[00:50:59] [SPEAKER_02]: we'll let you know how it goes, but thank you so much for joining us. This is Katie Van Horn.

[00:51:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And this is Jackie Clayton. Bye. Thank you.

[00:51:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Do you love news about LinkedIn, indeed Google and just about every other recruitment tech company

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