Catching up with Jackye and Katee

[00:00:00] You're listening to Inclusive AF with Jackie Clayton and Katie Van Horn.

[00:00:07] Hello, hello.

[00:00:10] Welcome to the Inclusive AF Podcast.

[00:00:12] This is Katie Van Horn.

[00:00:14] And this is Jackie Clayton.

[00:00:16] Hello.

[00:00:17] Hello.

[00:00:18] It's just you and me, baby.

[00:00:20] Just you and me.

[00:00:21] I know.

[00:00:22] Right?

[00:00:23] Like old times.

[00:00:24] So, uh, you know, I know this has been a minute since you and I have recorded just

[00:00:29] solo, well not solo.

[00:00:31] What does it mean?

[00:00:32] It's just you and I, but solo would be just me.

[00:00:35] Is it a duet?

[00:00:37] What do we call it?

[00:00:38] Oh, it's already starting really, starting off really well.

[00:00:40] I can't.

[00:00:41] We go on vacation, get sick, go do work things and literally we're back at three years ago.

[00:00:50] We're like literally at square one.

[00:00:53] Yes.

[00:00:54] Yes.

[00:00:55] So we can start talking about Thanksgiving food again.

[00:00:56] So it's going to be perfect.

[00:00:57] Yeah.

[00:00:58] I think that was like one of our first episodes with Thanksgiving food.

[00:01:01] Oh, that's right.

[00:01:02] So new year, new us.

[00:01:04] So it's 2024.

[00:01:05] That's right.

[00:01:06] Jackie's got the coolest Bob happening right now.

[00:01:11] It's uh, if you aren't looking, watching on YouTube, you should probably go onto YouTube

[00:01:16] just to check out the sassy britches that is Jackie right now because she's got the

[00:01:22] coolest, uh, sexy like gray Bob happening and I'm just, I love it.

[00:01:29] It's like an ombre.

[00:01:30] Yeah.

[00:01:31] Ombre black, like gray.

[00:01:33] I don't listen.

[00:01:35] Yes.

[00:01:36] I was bald for a couple of years and then I was in Las Vegas for my sister's birthday

[00:01:42] and she had this wig sitting there and I was really feeling myself.

[00:01:46] Oh, you should.

[00:01:48] You should because it's hot.

[00:01:49] You look freaking hot.

[00:01:50] So I support your sister in this decision that she bought it and gave it to you.

[00:01:56] Or you're falling from her.

[00:01:57] One of the two.

[00:01:58] A little bit about that's fair.

[00:02:00] That's fair.

[00:02:01] I still stuff for my sisters all the time or I used to when I was a kid, not so much

[00:02:04] anymore.

[00:02:05] Um, I feel my Tupperware.

[00:02:07] That's really all.

[00:02:08] Um, so you've been a world traveler.

[00:02:12] Yes.

[00:02:13] Literally just got back from New York.

[00:02:16] I literally went to New York like four times and as many weeks.

[00:02:21] Yeah.

[00:02:22] Which is kind of like the world.

[00:02:24] Yeah.

[00:02:25] But it's well.

[00:02:26] Yeah.

[00:02:27] It absolutely is.

[00:02:28] Feeling mentally focusing.

[00:02:30] Okay.

[00:02:31] So it's 2024.

[00:02:32] We know all of the crap that happened last year around DEI and, you know, POTUS or not

[00:02:40] POTUS, uh, sorry, Penny is getting up into her new spot.

[00:02:45] Um, uh, the, uh, Supreme court, all of these things.

[00:02:50] So tell me how what's, what's new and exciting?

[00:02:54] What have you heard?

[00:02:55] What is making you excited about DEI in 2024?

[00:03:01] I think what's really, really important is that, that people are not considering is that

[00:03:09] we're still having layoffs.

[00:03:10] We're still having, you know, people that are looking at what we can do best for the

[00:03:15] organization.

[00:03:16] I don't think it's, this isn't really exciting, but I think that what I'm hoping is that

[00:03:21] there will be a drive to fairness.

[00:03:23] If you don't, people don't want to call it DEI.

[00:03:25] That's okay.

[00:03:26] You don't want your employees leaving the organization saying, well, you don't care about

[00:03:30] me because I am blah, blah, blah.

[00:03:32] And that's why you let me go.

[00:03:34] And we know that you publicly said that you don't like DEI.

[00:03:36] And so all of those things, like I don't feel like people are understanding that

[00:03:41] they're putting themselves at risk.

[00:03:42] And the reason I say exciting is because I feel that there will be a research

[00:03:47] of how we can actually get finally past the D to the E, the I and the B that has

[00:03:55] actually incorporated this work and get over the optics and actually showcase

[00:04:00] more of the work because people can say all day, like, oh, I don't want, you know,

[00:04:08] like DEIB just that phrase sounds like poison.

[00:04:13] But what gets me excited is that you're going to have to double down to

[00:04:17] prove that you don't need regulation in order to show that this is something

[00:04:22] that doesn't have to go back to the Supreme Court.

[00:04:25] And you are just one freaking sugar cube away from this being a total resurgence.

[00:04:34] So I don't know.

[00:04:34] Is that good thing to be excited about?

[00:04:36] Potential trauma?

[00:04:37] That doesn't sound like fun, but you know where I'm going.

[00:04:39] Yeah, I do.

[00:04:40] And I think I would agree with you wholeheartedly that I think it's also,

[00:04:44] there is a, I feel like there's a difference now between people who were

[00:04:50] making the statements when this was such a hot topic.

[00:04:56] And now it feels like the real work is happening kind of longer, a pretty,

[00:05:02] pretty, oh, hey, shiny DEI thing.

[00:05:05] It's no, but seriously, how do we have like inclusion in such a way

[00:05:09] that people feel truly like they are a part of the conversation?

[00:05:15] And I think, you know, there are some, as we know, very recent examples where

[00:05:21] that was not the case.

[00:05:22] As we've seen, you know, in, especially in higher ed, where, you know,

[00:05:26] you've had women who have been placed into positions that they had zero

[00:05:31] opportunity to actually succeed and, you know, have gone through that trauma.

[00:05:37] And I think it's highlighting what I think we've tried to highlight for some time of,

[00:05:43] you can go and hire 10 wonderful, amazing, brilliant black women.

[00:05:49] But if you don't have the structure behind it to actually support those women

[00:05:54] and to create an environment where they can be heard, be seen,

[00:05:58] and their ideas taken into consideration and taken into account,

[00:06:03] it's never going to work.

[00:06:05] And so I'm hopeful that people are truly at a point now, like at this turning

[00:06:11] point or whatever you want to call it of, let's actually do the work in such

[00:06:15] a way that it's inclusion, not diversity for the sake of diversity.

[00:06:20] It's the optics that get in there and you're forcing activism because

[00:06:25] if I can't go to the University of Texas at Austin because I don't feel safe

[00:06:31] because you just shut down the, you know, Latina trans engineers group,

[00:06:38] then I'm going to go Berkeley.

[00:06:40] Right. Period. Like that's OK.

[00:06:43] Right. Right. So you're making it.

[00:06:46] Berkeley, but I mean, I don't know if it's Berkeley.

[00:06:50] But you know what I'm saying?

[00:06:51] It's like, like, like for an example, and we know with Sweet Baby T.J.,

[00:06:57] like he's in Austin, his girlfriend goes to UT.

[00:07:01] They are having all of this upheaval through their student government.

[00:07:05] Flash forward. T.J., he goes to an HBCU in Austin.

[00:07:10] And his because of being inclusive stays at St.

[00:07:15] Edwards, the Catholic University in Austin.

[00:07:18] And so that in and of itself and integrating these two communities

[00:07:23] where they eat together and they spend time together

[00:07:26] is like you can do whatever you want to over at UT.

[00:07:30] But if you want to feel safe, you can come over here

[00:07:32] and this is what we're doing at this university that's like five minutes away.

[00:07:36] And I feel like especially,

[00:07:39] you know, you're you're making it

[00:07:42] easier for people to know where they should go and vote for their feet,

[00:07:48] especially when like there will I feel like there will be a second reckoning.

[00:07:53] It doesn't have to be you don't have to have those major traumas

[00:07:56] where somebody has to die in order to do this.

[00:07:58] It's I'm going to look for the organization that is going to be able to support me.

[00:08:02] And I think prime examples are those leaders.

[00:08:08] I know let's talk about this.

[00:08:09] I think you might find this interesting.

[00:08:11] So. We see these leaders that are at these organizations,

[00:08:15] such as Disney or Netflix or Target and all of these people leaving

[00:08:21] solid leaders and going to industries that have that intention,

[00:08:25] places that have that intention that were built in order to share the messages

[00:08:29] of underrepresented people and others are following them.

[00:08:35] Others are following those leaders, right?

[00:08:37] And I think what we're seeing and you can look at

[00:08:41] even with like Dionne Sanders and his voice, how they went to an HBCU

[00:08:44] and then they went to another thing.

[00:08:46] It's like you have all of these groups that did what.

[00:08:50] You said to do, right?

[00:08:52] I went to I followed the rules.

[00:08:55] I went to college.

[00:08:56] I got my degree.

[00:08:58] I worked at a top company and you're still not giving me those opportunities.

[00:09:02] So I will create those opportunities.

[00:09:05] We will have the others will go there and to support that we haven't seen

[00:09:10] in years past. Absolutely.

[00:09:13] Do you love news about LinkedIn indeed Google

[00:09:17] and just about every other recruitment tech company out there?

[00:09:20] Hell, yeah. I'm Chad.

[00:09:22] I'm cheese.

[00:09:22] We're the Chad and cheese podcast.

[00:09:25] All the latest recruiting news and insights are on our show.

[00:09:28] Dripping in snark and attitude.

[00:09:31] Subscribe today wherever you listen to your podcasts.

[00:09:35] We out.

[00:09:36] And I think that's the piece that I feel like people are actually

[00:09:42] waking up to this topic in a different way.

[00:09:46] And and and I'm not trying to paint some, you know, rose colored glasses.

[00:09:50] Everything's fine.

[00:09:51] Don't worry. Don't look over here.

[00:09:52] Everything's fine because there are there's still a ton of work,

[00:09:56] but I think there's just some nice things that are showing up like

[00:10:00] I'm going to give an example, a recent example.

[00:10:02] So the backlash and I want to call it backlash,

[00:10:07] but just the like kind of not excited and not happy about the Joe Coy,

[00:10:13] you know, his kind of dogging of Taylor Swift and dogging of the women

[00:10:18] of Barbie and, you know, some of these things where you do look at that

[00:10:21] and you go, yeah, it's not cute anymore.

[00:10:25] No one thinks that's cute.

[00:10:26] No one thinks that's cool, but it isn't at least I don't feel like it's

[00:10:32] like it's not a, oh, Joe Coy is getting canceled.

[00:10:35] It's just a dude, really that's not funny.

[00:10:37] So be funny.

[00:10:38] Like if you're going to be funny, be funny.

[00:10:40] Um, and so it's just very interesting to see and hear some of these topics.

[00:10:46] And for me, I, so I just recently was in Germany for some work stuff.

[00:10:52] And I'm sitting around a table with folks from, I think like eight different

[00:10:59] countries, European countries, plus some folks from the US, myself included.

[00:11:04] And, and it was like, this is so fascinating because so many of us were

[00:11:07] talking about like one of the guys was like talking about on the weekends,

[00:11:11] he goes in hikes and the Alps.

[00:11:13] And I was like, I just like in my backyard in Arizona, not anymore because

[00:11:18] I'm broken, but you know, like theoretical.

[00:11:21] And so like talking about some of this different stuff and how diversity

[00:11:25] is being perceived and people asking me a ton of questions about diversity

[00:11:30] in that type of environment.

[00:11:32] And it's the, you know, hey, they might all be white men sitting around

[00:11:36] the table.

[00:11:36] However, the country of origins, the backgrounds, their experiences are

[00:11:40] very different, which is not a defensible like, oh, this is real diversity.

[00:11:45] But it is a, it's another facet and it's another conversation and it's

[00:11:50] another piece to the puzzle.

[00:11:52] And I think that's something that also makes me happy is it like people

[00:11:57] recognize that.

[00:11:58] And it was like a, wow, we have a lot of representation here from a lot

[00:12:02] of different backgrounds, even though it, you know, you look around

[00:12:06] the table and you could go, oh, they are all related.

[00:12:09] I think it's important.

[00:12:12] I agree with you because what we're understanding is, is, is we are looking

[00:12:19] to embrace people's differences, whereas maybe 30 years ago, you would have

[00:12:26] gone to another country and then everyone's going to default or fold

[00:12:29] to the US representative who has the biggest ear.

[00:12:34] And instead, they're like, since you're going to be responsible and you have

[00:12:38] the ear of the person, you know, our CEO or are they here to actually

[00:12:42] drive sustainable change and inclusion?

[00:12:45] Let me tell you what my experience is like.

[00:12:47] Yes.

[00:12:49] Right.

[00:12:50] And let me tell you how I can support it.

[00:12:52] And it's, and what people also are recognizing is that we're all

[00:12:57] coming to this place of uncertainty, but I know the best way of getting

[00:13:00] there is if I can support you and you can support me.

[00:13:03] Absolutely.

[00:13:04] And so we have people supporting each other, whereas the thing that we

[00:13:08] started doing when all of this went down in 2020, even when we started

[00:13:12] hopping on to do inclusive AF was let me tell you a little bit more about

[00:13:18] my experience and as much as I think you and I were both guilty where

[00:13:24] it's like really like you didn't know that, you know, insert stupid

[00:13:31] trope here.

[00:13:32] Um, no, we realized people really didn't.

[00:13:35] And now people recognize at the very least, the fact that someone

[00:13:39] could recognize that I might have a different experience at all is progress.

[00:13:46] Absolutely.

[00:13:47] Well, it's, it's recognizing, acknowledging, but also believing

[00:13:53] that you have a different experience because I think that's also part

[00:13:55] of it is when you would sit down with leaders and you'd say, this

[00:13:59] is the experience of black men at your company.

[00:14:02] They would be like, Oh, well, is it?

[00:14:04] I mean, it wasn't that way for me.

[00:14:06] So is that really the issue?

[00:14:07] Do you really think that's a problem?

[00:14:08] And you're like, that's their experience.

[00:14:11] Like they aren't making that up.

[00:14:13] They aren't just saying that.

[00:14:14] Like it's happening.

[00:14:16] But I also think it's the, that acknowledgement, but also I can

[00:14:21] honor you better if I don't just go, let me support Jackie.

[00:14:26] But it's also saying Jackie, what can I do to support you?

[00:14:30] So it's not just going, Oh, what Jackie needs is X, Y and Z.

[00:14:34] It's going, Jackie, what would be the best thing?

[00:14:36] And I think you and I are both in environments where that is

[00:14:39] happening now, where it truly is.

[00:14:41] You have someone and someone's asking you, what do you need?

[00:14:46] How can I best support you versus, Oh, well, what I needed

[00:14:49] it in her role or what I needed when I was at her stage of her career

[00:14:53] was this. And so that must be what she needs.

[00:14:56] So there's not that assumption of what you need is the same

[00:14:59] as what I need as well.

[00:15:00] That's right.

[00:15:01] I agree with you there.

[00:15:02] And I feel like I don't, what is people?

[00:15:09] The way that I've always implemented like these types

[00:15:12] of things is slow is the fastest way to get there.

[00:15:18] Right.

[00:15:20] Because we know when things happen or when you have

[00:15:24] these traumatic traumatic things happen and you're trying

[00:15:27] to do things overnight, it is so unorganized and disjointed.

[00:15:31] And then it's unclear.

[00:15:33] And then you have this immediate response where people

[00:15:36] haven't gone through strategy and have these things thought

[00:15:39] out. That's what we're seeing right now is I don't want

[00:15:44] to have up end and then not have any outcomes.

[00:15:48] And I think it's because it's not measurable, but it also

[00:15:51] allows people to know that this is a whole ass job.

[00:15:55] Right?

[00:15:56] Yes.

[00:15:56] This is you, you the qualification can't be.

[00:16:01] Oh, the only qualification you need is to be a member of one

[00:16:04] of these groups in order to understand what millions and

[00:16:07] millions and millions of people have been discussing

[00:16:10] the challenges at work and they can actually look at some

[00:16:14] of the science.

[00:16:15] But then on the other side, people who have been saying

[00:16:17] and doing this work forever are being taken a task as well of,

[00:16:23] OK, we do this thing because the expert said to do this thing.

[00:16:27] What is the output supposed to look like?

[00:16:29] Yep.

[00:16:30] And what has been the joke or what has been

[00:16:40] what have we been been sold to as something that's

[00:16:44] a positive thing for DEI, but it really isn't.

[00:16:47] That's really not the answer.

[00:16:49] And not all of those conversations are fun, but I've been

[00:16:54] looking at there's another point of view that has happened

[00:17:00] that has come out of this where it's like you're not.

[00:17:04] I don't you can't just like super liberals try to define

[00:17:08] these things either.

[00:17:09] Like you're not understanding it from either one of these

[00:17:12] major extremes and we're starting to see people

[00:17:18] on you have the people that were like overly performative,

[00:17:22] but then you have the people that mask by looking like

[00:17:26] they're really active, but not doing anything.

[00:17:29] It's like giving people socks, but no shoes on the other side.

[00:17:33] Right.

[00:17:34] And I think the amount of money that has been

[00:17:37] and I'm going to use the word wasted, but and that might

[00:17:40] not be the right word, but the amount of money that has

[00:17:42] been wasted on those performative activities

[00:17:46] when so much of what actually needs to happen is free.

[00:17:50] And I go into organizations and I don't mean you shouldn't

[00:17:54] pay for someone to come in and help you with this,

[00:17:56] because we've already talked about that a chazillion

[00:17:59] times that that's not the case, but it's more the idea

[00:18:02] that how are you treating the people in your organization

[00:18:07] today?

[00:18:08] How are you giving them career opportunities?

[00:18:10] How are you talking about them when they're not

[00:18:12] in the room?

[00:18:12] All of those things that cost nothing.

[00:18:15] That we just have not been good at doing in the past

[00:18:19] and helping leaders to understand how critical that is.

[00:18:22] And even, you know, I'm trying to build in this new

[00:18:25] organization, this conversation around feedback.

[00:18:29] And I've been in environments where feedback was

[00:18:34] mandatory and was given to the point where it was

[00:18:37] like it didn't mean anything anymore.

[00:18:40] And I've also been in organizations where people

[00:18:42] did not get feedback at all until they got their

[00:18:44] review and then they were like, wait, what?

[00:18:46] How I thought I was great.

[00:18:47] And now I'm getting this poor performance review.

[00:18:50] So I think even just some of these little things that

[00:18:53] people like Kieran have been talking about for years

[00:18:55] and other folks that it's the how do you give good

[00:18:58] feedback?

[00:18:59] How do you have conversations around development?

[00:19:01] Just some of those, what I would say, kind of basic

[00:19:06] topics.

[00:19:07] However, they are now, I just feel like people

[00:19:12] are more aware of the importance of them.

[00:19:14] And again, I'm making a sweeping generalization

[00:19:17] because I don't think everyone is, but I think

[00:19:20] people are seeing the importance of it.

[00:19:22] And again, it's not the super liberal, hey, everyone

[00:19:27] gets a pony.

[00:19:30] Even though I would love a pony.

[00:19:33] True that.

[00:19:33] Yeah, I would also love a pony.

[00:19:36] The puppy right now is on the counter just so

[00:19:39] we're all on the same page here listening in to

[00:19:41] the inclusive AF podcast.

[00:19:43] Seren.

[00:19:45] Oh, Lord.

[00:19:46] Seren's in trouble.

[00:19:48] Seren's in trouble.

[00:19:49] Here's the problem.

[00:19:49] I just got a new couch and so the old couch is sitting

[00:19:53] in the hallway basically so he can climb on the

[00:19:55] couch and then get on the counter.

[00:19:57] And so he thinks he's very fancy.

[00:20:00] So, you know, I have to tell you because

[00:20:05] I never, I do not do this as long as we've

[00:20:08] ever known each other.

[00:20:09] I would say so at Textio, we launched another

[00:20:13] product called Textio Lift that helps with feedback.

[00:20:17] And I will tell you it has been life changing for me

[00:20:24] of understanding what good feedback is, how I

[00:20:26] communicate even with my children.

[00:20:27] Like I have been in this space for a really

[00:20:30] long time, but we're going to continue to try

[00:20:31] to build tools that do that.

[00:20:33] I don't usually talk about Textio unless it's

[00:20:35] relevant.

[00:20:36] So like this isn't a sales pitch.

[00:20:37] This is just my personal testimonial.

[00:20:39] We're looking at this product and we have to

[00:20:41] have clear actionable feedback.

[00:20:43] And I just learned, I was this many years old

[00:20:47] when I learned like the worst possible

[00:20:49] feedback that you could give somebody is

[00:20:51] you're doing a good job.

[00:20:52] Right?

[00:20:53] Yes.

[00:20:54] Oh yeah.

[00:20:55] What?

[00:20:56] Exactly.

[00:20:56] Right?

[00:20:57] Like what is good about it and why is that

[00:20:59] relevant and what does that have to do with

[00:21:01] my job description and is this something that

[00:21:03] you've expected and how can I continue to

[00:21:05] do a good job?

[00:21:06] Like so now it's like even in a rush since day

[00:21:10] one and looking at the things that were flagged

[00:21:14] to say you need additional help in these

[00:21:16] areas to make sure this is good and actionable

[00:21:19] feedback, change the way that I communicate

[00:21:22] feedback and also makes me feel more confident

[00:21:25] that when I give that feedback, it's

[00:21:26] something that's clear.

[00:21:28] And I'm not basing it on like my own

[00:21:32] anxiety, which has been.

[00:21:34] That's been the joke for years that I've

[00:21:36] said to people like in giving feedback is

[00:21:39] the whole you know, you sit down with your

[00:21:40] boss and it's the you're doing a great job.

[00:21:42] Keep doing what you're doing.

[00:21:43] And you're like, cool if I'm doing a great

[00:21:45] job, where's my raise?

[00:21:47] Where's my promotion?

[00:21:48] Where my, you know, start the list of all

[00:21:51] the.

[00:21:51] Oh, I didn't say it was a great job.

[00:21:53] Exactly.

[00:21:53] And then it's like, oh, well, wait a minute

[00:21:55] what I really meant was you saw 20

[00:21:57] different things and then you're like, oh,

[00:21:58] okay, this is what I need to work on.

[00:22:00] Thank you for at least acknowledging that

[00:22:02] there are things that I need to work on.

[00:22:04] But I also would say one of the things

[00:22:06] I have a fairly.

[00:22:11] Jew, I won't say junior level.

[00:22:13] I won't say not as tenured team.

[00:22:17] And and so it's been so fascinating

[00:22:19] also to talk to them.

[00:22:21] And I am giving them feedback and it is

[00:22:24] I think they're slightly shocked by it

[00:22:26] at times because it is like I am a

[00:22:30] some might know I'm a slightly direct.

[00:22:33] Oh, sure.

[00:22:35] And so, you know, and obviously delivered

[00:22:37] with kindness and with the best intentions

[00:22:39] of like, hey, no, I want you to get better at this.

[00:22:42] So I'm going to tell you the things.

[00:22:44] But it's also I have had my peers

[00:22:47] have been shocked when I've given them

[00:22:49] feedback or talk to the the CEO and given him

[00:22:52] like and they've and I'm not like

[00:22:54] coaching him in front of others because that's

[00:22:56] I would never but like it's more of like,

[00:22:58] hey, wait a minute, like why are we doing it

[00:23:00] this way? Let's talk about that.

[00:23:02] Or can we have a conversation about that?

[00:23:04] And I'm trying to model

[00:23:07] what what I know he wants, but also what I know

[00:23:10] we all need to be doing to help him get better.

[00:23:13] So it's the like there are so many different nuances to it.

[00:23:16] But Jackie.

[00:23:20] Twenty-four is January.

[00:23:22] Now, there is a conference going on today and tomorrow

[00:23:25] that I know did you already do your

[00:23:27] you already did spoke or you'd speak tomorrow.

[00:23:31] We'd never admit it, but deep down we all get at least

[00:23:34] some pleasure from bad things happening to somebody we don't like.

[00:23:37] Histories full of stories about bitter enemies being mutually horrible.

[00:23:41] Usually nothing good comes of it.

[00:23:43] But sometimes, sometimes you get soul singers James Brown

[00:23:47] and Joe Tex or 17th century nun,

[00:23:49] Sor Juana and the entire Catholic Church

[00:23:52] duking it out and dramatically changing our world on beef with Bridget Todd.

[00:23:57] We tell the stories of those petty feuds behind

[00:23:59] some of the greatest art, innovation and global events.

[00:24:02] Listen to be wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:24:07] No, I speak tomorrow today.

[00:24:08] I'm doing a hackathon and are going to be going over some things.

[00:24:13] So tonight is the hackathon for the inclusion.

[00:24:22] Oh, did you get that?

[00:24:24] Nope. Jackie Fros on us.

[00:24:28] All right, Jackie, come back to us.

[00:24:29] My internet connection is unstable.

[00:24:32] I'm just unstable.

[00:24:34] Aren't we all?

[00:24:36] Please, I'll come right back.

[00:24:37] Yeah, no, no, you're there.

[00:24:38] You're there. You're good.

[00:24:39] All right.

[00:24:40] The conference.

[00:24:42] So it's in collusion by design.

[00:24:45] And our inclusive by design,

[00:24:49] which is Rocky Howard has launched

[00:24:51] an organization called Diverseology and is put on a T.

[00:24:55] Day conference that's called Inclusive by Design,

[00:24:58] which is really going through of re imaging

[00:25:03] D.E.I. to drive impact and looking at how we can

[00:25:06] re image D.E.I. with a different framework

[00:25:09] so that we can be sustainable and do those things to move forward.

[00:25:12] So that has been the speaker list is absolutely ridiculous.

[00:25:19] There's 35 speakers, first of all, for these like 15 minute pitches.

[00:25:25] And it's like what?

[00:25:27] Like, huh?

[00:25:30] Yeah.

[00:25:31] So this it's Inclusive by Design is the conference.

[00:25:34] Now, by the time this airs, it will be over.

[00:25:38] But what I would say to everyone listening is if you're not

[00:25:41] connected to Rocky Howard, connect with her immediately

[00:25:44] because she like if this is any indication of some of the stuff

[00:25:48] that she's going to be doing with this new organization that she's launched.

[00:25:52] Wow, like I literally was looking at the lineup

[00:25:55] and I am like, holy Hannah Batman, like every single person

[00:25:59] that you want to hear from that has a voice

[00:26:02] that is doing just amazing stuff in the space is there

[00:26:06] and is speaking and it's awesome.

[00:26:07] So super excited to hear.

[00:26:10] I have been kind of jumping in as a day today

[00:26:14] and doing the same thing tomorrow.

[00:26:17] But please, you know, if and I don't know if they're going to be doing

[00:26:20] replays or how how they'll be handling that, but connect with Rocky

[00:26:23] and definitely jump in for the next one.

[00:26:26] What are some other conferences that you're excited about this year?

[00:26:31] You know, I don't know.

[00:26:34] I really am trying to focus on stuff that can really help.

[00:26:37] Like I've been really concerned about a lot of these mini conferences

[00:26:42] and all of these like Q Lollipalooza, whatever types

[00:26:47] like hug it out conferences.

[00:26:49] Not that hugging isn't great.

[00:26:51] Right in this world of covid.

[00:26:53] Maybe we can do some things where we're not just hugging

[00:26:57] and we can get down to the work of this.

[00:27:00] So I think what I am

[00:27:04] I'm always excited about

[00:27:08] seeing like H.R.

[00:27:10] Tech is still going to be a go to conference for me

[00:27:13] of seeing the different technology that was going.

[00:27:15] But what I learned last year that I'm excited about for this year

[00:27:18] is actually Black Men in Tech Conference.

[00:27:21] They have one that was really great last year and was

[00:27:27] diverse topics.

[00:27:28] I mean, I'm not a Black man and I'm not like looking for a job in tech.

[00:27:34] But the content and seeing the conversations that people are having,

[00:27:38] I think they're really great and seeing more opportunities

[00:27:42] for people to look like me to have a conversation.

[00:27:45] Real talk about how can we negotiate this space?

[00:27:49] And I found it really beneficial in this way.

[00:27:51] But I don't know, are you excited about any conferences?

[00:27:54] So I think both of the ones you mentioned at some point in time

[00:27:58] and I try to be very, very cognizant that this is not my

[00:28:03] not my place.

[00:28:05] And what I mean by that is not that I would not be welcomed,

[00:28:07] but that I would rather folks on the team attend these Afro Tech

[00:28:12] as a conference that I've always watched from afar and gone.

[00:28:16] At some point in time, I want to be there just to see it

[00:28:19] because every piece of it looks so cool.

[00:28:22] And also like we have some of our friends at like,

[00:28:25] you know, Ashton DJs for it.

[00:28:27] And, you know, we have things going on that like just are super, super cool.

[00:28:32] And I agree with you.

[00:28:32] H.R. Tech is just always such a good one because there are,

[00:28:36] hey, we get to see a lot of our people, but it's not just a

[00:28:40] stand around and talk to the people you know, you're going out

[00:28:43] and speaking to folks that are building these like new cool things

[00:28:46] that you're like, wow, I hadn't never thought about that.

[00:28:49] And we really need that.

[00:28:50] Or some of them you're like, huh, interesting.

[00:28:53] I don't know if that's going to fly, but OK.

[00:28:56] But there are so many that are so good that you're like,

[00:28:59] this would be cool if you could also plug it into that.

[00:29:01] And I just think that team does a good job of pulling like George,

[00:29:06] you know, running his pitch fest.

[00:29:10] I think it's so cool because like you get to see some neat, cool ideas.

[00:29:14] And a lot of them, I think he's had a lens of DEI for a while.

[00:29:17] And so he's trying to pull in diverse voices and diverse,

[00:29:22] you know, groups that are building cool stuff, different startups.

[00:29:27] And I think like the other one for me, so this is just

[00:29:29] and this is kind of a selfish one.

[00:29:32] I'm going to be a panelist at CloudFest in March

[00:29:35] and it's in Germany and we're it's like the first time

[00:29:39] they're really and I shouldn't say this is one of the first panels

[00:29:44] they'll be hosting around DEI and again in a very different

[00:29:48] environment than maybe here in the US.

[00:29:50] So they have CloudFest in Austin every year, but they also

[00:29:54] you know, have they also have, you know, some good options for

[00:30:01] how how to actually think about, you know, diversity

[00:30:05] in a different way in Europe.

[00:30:07] So those are kind of the two that are front of mind right now.

[00:30:10] But I think there's also just some other stuff that's kind of percolating

[00:30:14] that I'm watching from the sidelines to see how it

[00:30:18] you know, kind of how it starts and how it kind of

[00:30:22] how it all comes together.

[00:30:24] Because there's also there's a conference that a few of us will be

[00:30:27] attending a little bit later in the year.

[00:30:31] I think it's in April and there's just like some

[00:30:34] some good stuff that like new conferences and new faces and new speakers

[00:30:38] that you haven't heard from before, which makes me happy because that's always

[00:30:43] something that I I like to see is new voices that we haven't heard from before.

[00:30:49] Yes, I could appreciate that.

[00:30:51] And I think more than conferences, I'm excited about doing the work.

[00:30:57] I, you know, I have been networking and looking and listening

[00:31:02] and I am excited about, you know, reaping some of these seeds

[00:31:08] that have been planted in the room, you know.

[00:31:11] Yeah.

[00:31:14] So I think that the pieces I would also say

[00:31:23] I want to make sure that as folks are going into this year

[00:31:30] and obviously a lot of people are either goal setting or set their goals

[00:31:34] set their idea of what they want to do from an education,

[00:31:36] from a conference, from all of these things is keep an eye out on LinkedIn

[00:31:41] for those new voices and in all the folks that we've always recommended

[00:31:46] yourself included Rocky, you know, some of these other terrors, another one.

[00:31:53] There's just so many different voices out there that

[00:31:56] you can follow who are recommending those new and different

[00:32:01] conferences and new people to follow and listen to,

[00:32:04] which I think is just a critical piece to the entire puzzle.

[00:32:07] But I think there's just some good stuff coming up in this year.

[00:32:11] But it's still it's, you know, the it's the the battle is not

[00:32:16] the battle might be one, but the war is still going on or whatever

[00:32:19] the expression is.

[00:32:20] Is that even close to what the.

[00:32:22] Yeah, yeah. What is it?

[00:32:25] Right? Maybe one, but not the marathon.

[00:32:27] What is it, Jackie? What's the.

[00:32:28] I don't know, but I like that. We'll say that whatever it is.

[00:32:33] But like, I think that's a piece too, is I hope that anyone doing this work

[00:32:38] got to take some time off over the holidays to reinvigorate, unplug,

[00:32:44] have a quiet time, nap, do whatever they needed to do to

[00:32:49] to get ready for this year because it's still going to be hard work.

[00:32:53] But it's just, you know, it's I feel good about.

[00:32:58] How we're starting off and I'm hoping for the best.

[00:33:02] Yes, I absolutely agree with you.

[00:33:04] And I think, you know, I feel really solid about what we are going into.

[00:33:11] I think that we also need to protect each other. Right?

[00:33:14] We know, especially within these election years,

[00:33:17] it can be really stressful. There is.

[00:33:20] I mean, we can talk about the things that we're really excited about.

[00:33:23] But there's other things that I'm really nervous about as well.

[00:33:28] And I don't.

[00:33:30] I just think that it's going to be important to support each other

[00:33:35] and know that we're doing the good work

[00:33:37] and make sure that you can connect with other like-minded people.

[00:33:40] I have gone through a million

[00:33:44] conferences and wanted to kind of look at these relationships

[00:33:47] to kind of build and enhance on these relationships.

[00:33:49] But if you haven't had the opportunity to do that and you do now,

[00:33:54] do take those opportunities to go and meet other like-minded people.

[00:33:57] Look at the agendas and let people know that these agendas that you appreciate

[00:34:03] and nurture those relationships because it's going to take all of us

[00:34:05] to be able to get these things together.

[00:34:07] All right, 100 percent and connect with the people that are speaking

[00:34:13] because even if you don't get to meet them at the conference

[00:34:16] because, you know, a lot of times the speakers will have four, five,

[00:34:18] ten people waiting to speak to them.

[00:34:20] If you connect with them and then send them a note,

[00:34:23] hey, I heard you at this conference and you are awesome.

[00:34:26] Those those land really, really well with folks and they appreciate it.

[00:34:29] So anyhow, all right, here's to 2024, Jackie.

[00:34:33] Can I pick up my Pepsi now?

[00:34:35] Yeah, I'm going to raise my squirt.

[00:34:41] Not sponsored.

[00:34:42] Not sponsored.

[00:34:44] But if they want to sponsor us, we would be happy with that.

[00:34:48] But here's to 2024.

[00:34:52] Right. Cheers.

[00:34:53] This is Katie Van Horn.

[00:34:55] And this is Jackie Clayton.

[00:34:58] Bye.

[00:35:06] Hi, my name is Sara and I want to tell you about my podcast called

[00:35:10] Can I offer you some feedback?

[00:35:12] I'm a business consultant and executive coach with over 20 years

[00:35:15] experience in change management, leadership development

[00:35:18] and naturally providing feedback to high performers.

[00:35:21] My podcast is for those of you who have a complicated relationship

[00:35:24] with feedback, whether giving, receiving, avoiding or seeking.

[00:35:28] Feedback is essential for our development.

[00:35:30] In each episode, you'll hear from real people across industries

[00:35:33] with their ideas, perspectives and best practices on feedback.

[00:35:37] I'll also be sharing business bites with you.

[00:35:39] Simple explanations of organizational tools, management techniques

[00:35:43] and leadership philosophies that will help you and your businesses thrive.

[00:35:47] You can listen to Can I offer you some feedback on your favorite

[00:35:50] podcast app or learn more at evergreenpodcasts.com.