The Pivot Effect - How to evaluate a job offer using real worker outcome data and what 12 million workers reveal about how you actually get ahead.

[00:00:00] I think that's a good thing. I think both companies and workers will be better served with greater transparency and hopefully it will lead to better outcomes, not just for workers, but for businesses as well. We see here that some of the best performing companies are also some of the most successful companies. If these data can help reduce turnover and churn costs, can help companies understand how well they are doing with regard to some of the investments they're making in people.

[00:00:27] There are efficiencies to be gained and there's benefit to all stakeholders, not just workers, but also to shareholders. Welcome to the HR Huddle Podcast presented by Sapient Insights Group, the ultimate resource for all things HR. It's time to get in the huddle.

[00:00:56] Hey everyone, welcome back to The Pivot Effect, the podcast about the moments, decisions and data that shape the way we work. I'm your host, Terri Zipper. I'm the CEO and managing partner at Sapient Insights Group, alongside my co-host, Susan Richards, the founder and partner at Sapient. Hi, Susan.

[00:01:17] Hi, everybody. On this show, we are going to talk center stage about you as an employee, as a leader, a mentor, a coach, whatever's possible and how to get where you're going. We're going to focus on the skills and capabilities you need to thrive in the future of work, regardless of the work you do, because there's always a future.

[00:01:41] Sometimes we just have to be the ones to make it. Today, we are tackling a question that almost every job seeker asks, but very few can actually answer. Does where you work really matter? And how do you tell the difference between a company that just looks good and one that's actually good for you? I'm excited about our guest today. Our guest is Rajiv Chandraskaran. Rajiv leads the Where You Work Matters Initiative.

[00:02:11] It's an independent data-driven rating of how well America's largest employers create high-quality jobs. So this is going to be fun. Rajiv, welcome to The Pivot Effect. Great to be with you guys. Yeah, you're on our second episode. So you are our first guest on this new show that we just started. And so we're really excited about this topic. It's something that we've been talking a lot about over the last two months since we kind of learned about it.

[00:02:38] Well, I'm excited to talk about it with you. And so it's, you know, not only where you work matters, but what you listen to matters. Yeah. If you like that, we might adopt it. Yeah, I like that. I'm still tweaking the intro to this thing anyway. So the Where You Work Matters list is fascinating. And I know that we talked about this covering something like 12 million workers across more than 1,700 employers, some 55,000 jobs, so to speak.

[00:03:06] And different from a lot of the best places to work type ratings, companies can't just opt into it, right? They're, it's not pay to play. And as we were thinking about this, this is a really important thing for employers. But the reality is, this is huge for employees and candidates and people looking for work and trying to find the places to work.

[00:03:29] So hoping you could start off by just giving our listeners a sense of, you know, what you're measuring and why you and the team felt this kind of independent rating was missing out there in the marketplace and, you know, why you did it. Yeah, great question, Terry. This is data insights that have never really been available to the American worker before.

[00:03:52] It's really an unprecedented look into where are the great places to work and where are the jobs that will help get you ahead. And you're absolutely right. You were throwing out some big numbers there. And I think the key takeaway for people here is this is a big data project. Unlike every other list of great places to work and good jobs in America, because it's not based on how well a company filled out a survey from a glossy magazine.

[00:04:19] It's not pay to play. It's not based on the size of a check. A company's marketing department might have cut to somebody giving you plaques to hang on the wall. This is based on analyzing what's really happened to 12 million workers over the past five years across 1750 employers in the United States. And so it's based on true worker outcomes.

[00:04:44] And through that analysis, we can actually see the jobs at companies where people are able to get ahead, where they're paid well and where they see strong retention. And we can see the jobs down to the company level where that's not the case. People tend to think that we can we can talk more about this later in some detail. But that two people who are doing the same job are roughly getting paid about the same.

[00:05:12] They're roughly seeing the same kind of upward mobility and similar retention. Sure, you know, people in, let's say, the New York metro area obviously will have a larger or a higher base salary, perhaps, than somebody working in Des Moines, Iowa. In the main, there's this sense that you're an accountant, I'm an accountant. We have roughly similar kind of career trajectories.

[00:05:36] And what we find in the analysis in the aggregate is that couldn't be further from the truth, that people's career trajectories, their ability to get ahead, what kind of job they get if they leave their employer, how they're paid, how they're retained, can be profoundly different based on the employer. And most people today haven't known where are the good jobs and where are the jobs that may not be as great.

[00:06:04] And what this list does is it finally reveals all of that. And so when we launched this earlier this year, we were recognizing companies and we still we recognize those that are doing best overall and best at creating different kinds of good jobs. But you're absolutely right, Terry. There is a profound power here for the worker and powerful insights. And we're in the progress of starting to make that data available to workers.

[00:06:33] But, you know, in some ways, those listening here can get a head start on trying to understand some of that before we are kind of coming to the market with a consumer facing tool. That's exciting, Rajiv. So when I think about most job seekers, they look at a potential employer based on the salary they might command, the marquee of the name, how well the brand stands up and reviews.

[00:07:01] So Glassdoor reviews and others. The data that you guys are providing reveals something really different. It's that worker outcome that's important. It's whether the company actually helps people advance or earn more over time or actually stay with their organization. What did you find that was specifically surprising about the gap between a company's reputation and how it performed in your data set? It's a great question.

[00:07:31] Yeah. So most people think, oh, this is a highly respected brand. It's a well-known company. It's been, you know, a high-flying stock. It's got to be a great place to work. So let's use an example like Apple. We all love Apple. Most of us have iPhones. And Apple does pretty well overall on the Where You Work Matters list. We rate it as an overall gold employer.

[00:07:58] And it receives a recognition even at the platinum level in our stability archetype. But the truth is there's some great jobs at Apple. And they do well at bringing people up in the early stages of their career, helping them grow and paying them well. And they see strong retention. But not every job at Apple is a great job. You think about, let's say, I'm looking at the database right now.

[00:08:26] If you're a project management specialist, Apple's not a great place to start your career. They don't hire a lot of those people with literally no previous experience. It's also not a great place to grow your career. There's not a whole thing. They don't do as well as many other employers at helping to advance project management specialists. But they do pay well. And they see strong retention in that role.

[00:08:48] So if you're at a stage in your career as a project management specialist where you're really just looking for pay and retention, Apple is a good place to go. But if you're earlier in your career and you're looking to gain experience, move up, and sort of build your resume as it were, Apple may not be the right place for that.

[00:09:10] And so what we see in this is that even well-regarded companies or companies that we rate highly overall, not every job within those companies is great. Now, Susan, let me talk about the converse to this. And let's go not company first, but occupation first. Let's say you're coming out of college this spring. And you want to be a, you've studied business and you are looking for a first job as a financial analyst.

[00:09:41] And you'd love, maybe you're a little anachronistic, you'd love to find an employer where you can get your foot in the door. You can gain some skills. You can get not just that first promotion, but you can also be at a place where you might grow your career and eventually, you know, be at a place with good pay and strong retention in this roiling labor market. Great.

[00:10:02] So I assume many of us might think, all right, the financial analyst, young woman, young man, go look at Wall Street. Go look at the big banks and the financial services industry. That's the first place I would go. All right. Well, Susan, I'm going to, I'm going to tell you a little something. Are you going to burst my bubble? I would burst your bubble a little bit.

[00:10:24] And I'm going to tell you that of the 1,750 companies we look at, something like seven or 800 of them have financial analysts as part of their workforce. So we analyze financial analysts across hundreds of companies. There are just 29 of those companies where the occupation of financial analysts, we rate as platinum across our key, three key archetypes of early career growth and stability.

[00:10:49] Now, of those 29, Susan, how many of those do you think are in the financial services and banks? I think half. Half. Guess what? Only six. What? Only six out of the 29 are in the banks and financial services sector. Now, other great places? Everon, Nike, General Mills. Like, there are other great employers. If you're looking for a great job that, you know, you might just associate with a single sector, a key takeaway from this is think again.

[00:11:19] There are great software developer jobs still today that are not in Silicon Valley or not at tech companies. There are great financial analyst jobs that are beyond the financial services sector in America. And so it's a moment that demands a wider aperture and greater creativity among the job seeker.

[00:11:42] And this is data that can help point away to where some of those kind of lesser recognized great opportunities are. You know, you use that term widen the aperture. And as you were talking, that's exactly what I was thinking about.

[00:11:58] And what a phenomenal opportunity this is for job seekers who are at any level of their career who are looking for that next great role that's going to help them fulfill what what they're looking for, as opposed to just finding the next job. That's absolutely stunning to hear that.

[00:12:22] Now, you categorized the positions of good jobs in early career growth and stability. If I'm a listener at any point in my career, if I'm a graduate versus someone who is in that software development realm, who's one of the 9000 people that's been laid off in the last month, how do I use how should I look at the list differently or how should I dig into the data and find my next great place to work?

[00:12:51] That's a great question, Susan. And we we developed these three key archetypes. And it's a real it's how we assess jobs at kind of the individual occupation level and how we assess companies, because we believe there really isn't a one size fits all definition of a good job in America today. We we want to provide actionable insights to people who are just starting their careers out. And so the early career archetype looks at a couple of things.

[00:13:17] It assesses whether the company is actually hiring people with little or no previous experience into an occupation. So it's not just hiring for that, but it's have you been hiring people who actually have just come out of school or are maybe a year into their career as opposed to, yeah, we hire, but we only hire people 10 years of experience for this role. And then does that company give the worker that first step up in a five year period?

[00:13:44] Are they getting that internal promotion or let's say in the case of a large retailer, you're working there. There aren't as many opportunities to move up internally. You're you're leaving and you're going to your next job. Are you going to a next job that is commensurate better or worse? And if you're going to a better next job, we actually view that as positive to that first employer,

[00:14:07] because we believe that first employer has equipped you with some of the skills and training that are enabling you to move to a better job elsewhere. Then we have this growth archetype. And that's really when you're at that stage in your career, when you are looking to gain skills, you're looking to seize new opportunities, maybe start to move into some levels of management. And so is this occupation at a company a great place to grow your career?

[00:14:35] Do they actually like let people rise? Do they have the pathways internally to help do that? But we also as part of that look at if you leave, are you leaving to grow into other jobs? It was recognized a lot of mobility in the labor market happens as people move from one employer to the other. And so are you in a place that is that is really helping to build your skills so that you can continue to grow?

[00:14:58] And then the third key archetype here is the stability archetype for those people who are at a stage in their career when they're looking for. Leading pay and strong retention. When we look at companies overall, we look at how they do across all three. But we recognize for many workers, they're going to want to maximize to one or the other.

[00:15:20] The recent college graduate who really would want to be focused on the early career archetype because they're trying to get their foot in the door. The person who might have five years of experience who is looking at the growth archetype because they want to rise. And they know that rising is the path to better pay and greater opportunities. And then for people who are, let's say, have a little more experience, who are really indexing toward wanting more stability.

[00:15:49] And we recognize that we're in a highly transforming labor market. Every occupation is seeing disruption of some sort, some more than others. But we think this is strong directional data. It doesn't mean that a company that has, you know, stability rating for software developers, you're going to be totally protected for the next several years. We recognize that things are churning a lot, but it's an important relative measure.

[00:16:15] And what I would say, and just going to throw in the, you know, the obligatory AI point here, right? None of us, Susan and Terry, know how, with all the great predictions out there, nobody knows for certain how AI is going to, how quickly and how significantly AI is going to impact any particular occupation, company, or sector. We know it's coming. We know it's going to create disruptions. We know it's going to create opportunities.

[00:16:44] What I would say is that the companies that have, do well on the Where You Work Matters list are companies that have, that are building and have built strong internal mobility pathways. And those are places when, you know, faced with these sorts of changes where we need fewer people in this role, more people in this role, as AI impacts every company's labor force.

[00:17:10] You might be better off being in a place that has already developed that mobility muscle to help cross-train you for a lateral move, to move you up. If, let's say, there's constriction in your occupation, but new needs in a different occupation. Be in a place that knows how to grow people and move people, as opposed to a place where, historically, people have been more stagnant.

[00:17:34] That just opens up a whole new world of potential options for those who are out there looking for their next great role. Yeah, yeah. And it's interesting because as you think about what organizations have been trying to do for years around mobility, right, this should be illuminating for them whether or not they are succeeding in that effort.

[00:17:58] And then giving, you know, on the flip side, giving the employee the opportunity to see where they can, you know, where they might best use their skills in order to achieve the goals they're looking to achieve. You're really right about that, Terry. You know, every large company has voluminous internal HR data. And it's far more detailed than anything that's on the list. Remember that feeling the first day of school, looking for your table in the cafeteria? Do you know anybody? Where are you supposed to sit?

[00:18:26] You don't know, but you definitely feel like there's toilet paper on the bottom of your shoe. Ugh, this is the worst. Well, you know what they say, high school never ends. I'm Anna Morgan, former corporate recruiter turned entrepreneur, and I know the workforce can feel just as complicated and clicky as high school. Trust me, I've been there. The layoffs, the imposter syndrome, the what the hell am I doing moments at 3 a.m. It all brought one point into focus. We all deserve a place to belong and learn.

[00:18:54] So I started this podcast just for us. Welcome to your career BFF podcast, a place where everyone has a seat at the table, complete with masterclasses, no BS advice, and candid conversations with some of my favorite people. It's the breakfast club meets the boardroom. So whether you're the rebel challenging the status quo, the brain strategizing your next move, or the quiet wizard making magic behind the scenes, you have a seat.

[00:19:23] So grab your backpack, find your spot, and get ready to learn, laugh, and lead together. Because in this classroom, everyone's got to BFF. Class starts soon. See you there. Bye. Where you work matters, Liz. Of course. But what this enables companies to do is to see how well they're stacking up at the occupation level vis-a-vis competitors in their sector, in their geography.

[00:19:48] And it gives them a sort of a standard yardstick by which to measure their performance against. Because for most companies, their internal data doesn't give them insight into what's happening at their competitors. It also enables them to see how well people who are leaving their companies are doing. Most companies don't track people once they've left their employee.

[00:20:14] And so this is also a measure of, well, how well are we preparing people to, you know, not just to rise within our company, but how well are the people, you know, who leave us, how well are they doing elsewhere? Absolutely. I've got a couple of other questions about the, at the employee level. One is, I don't, let's say I'm, I've got a couple of job offers.

[00:20:37] You know, I'm really comparing two different jobs and I find out about, hey, there's this world at work, there's this where this work matters thing. I want to go check this out and see how I can, you know, maybe look at comparing these two offers. And, and so what would you look at? And are there some green flags, some red flags I might immediately notice? How would, how would I use that? Well, first, first step is I would say go to where you work matters.org.

[00:21:05] And there is a, uh, uh, there is a comparison tool right there up at the nav bar. And it's very simple. You, you select, you got your offer a from pick the company, select the occupation. And then you can select up to two other companies who employ people in the same occupation.

[00:21:24] So you can put in the competitive offers and you can see how well does, do all three companies do at the, at the occupation that you're want to get a job in, in terms of early career growth and stability. So it's not just what they're saying to you, the, the hiring manager, but you can see what is the, the, the, the historical data show.

[00:21:47] Do people rise in this occupation at this company is pay and retention significantly above the median or is it, you know, do they not receive a platinum or gold rating there? And so it's, uh, it's powerful insights. And what I would urge a job seeker to do is then take that and then use that in conversations with your hiring managers. Say, Hey, look, I, I'd love to talk to you about what does growth look like in this job? Because I went to the, where you work matters list.

[00:22:16] And you guys, uh, you guys don't receive a recognition for growth for this occupation, but guess what? Your competitor who I have an offer from is, is platinum rated for growth. And, you know, I I'm looking to build my career. So use it to, to really probe a little deeper. And, uh, it's a helpful input in making a, making a selection. Now, why does this matter? Let me, let me just throw out an example to you guys.

[00:22:43] Let's go to, uh, pick a, let's pick a career here. Let's say you're looking for a job as a network and telecom engineer. How does that sound? Is that reasonable? Or you want to do a, do a sales manager? Well, let's do sales managers. Sales manager. Okay. So the difference on average for a sales manager at a company where the occupation of sales

[00:23:06] manager is platinum rated by us versus the sales manager at a company on average that is unrated by us. What are the differences guys? Well, when it comes to getting a better job, when you leave, if you're leaving, if you're at a platinum rated company for growth, you're 71% more likely to get a better job when you leave. Um, let's see here. Inferno, the likelihood of getting a promotion within five years.

[00:23:35] If you're at a platinum rated growth company, you are 89% more likely on average to get that promotion. Let's talk about pay. Uh, if you're platinum rated for stability, um, for that sales manager job, you are, uh, 83% more. Or you make, oh, sorry. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm mangling this. You make on average 83% more. Wow. That's huge. Dang.

[00:24:04] And your three year retention rate is 26% higher. So that's a profound difference for, you know, two, you know, a worker here and a worker there. So this is, this is why, this is why we call it where you work, Matt. Yeah, it does. It really, I mean, gosh, it opens up a whole new dimension of evaluation criteria and power for the job seeker.

[00:24:31] And, you know, for so long, um, it, it felt like the employers had all the power. Um, and I, I love that this feels like it's going to, um, even the playing field a bit for our job seekers out there. I'm really excited about that, especially for my kids. Yeah. I would say, even if you're not a job seeker, go check it out and see what's happening in your organization around your job and, or the job you're, you know, you'd like to move

[00:24:59] into in the future and think about how you talk about this in your next conversation with, with your manager. Right. I mean, this is, is, I feel like, you know, we're at the dawn of something really profound here. You go back to, so there was a, there was a time when people didn't know what their blood cholesterol level was or, and we, there were tests and now, you know, most people get a some form of blood test every year to see how they're doing. Right.

[00:25:28] This is, this is the start of trying to provide these levels of insight to the American worker, right? Most of us, at least if we're, you know, well-behaved, try to go get a, you know, an annual checkup. We go to the car in for servicing, hopefully like every 10,000 miles or so. But yes, the ordinary person, like when's the last time you checked the health of your career? And they'll, they'll look at you like you have a third eye growing out of your face because

[00:25:57] like, it's not possible. Right. Historically to check the health of your career. Well, this is the start of it. We're trying to provide that insight to people. So it's not just when you're evaluating two different job offers or, you know, you've just graduated from college and you're looking for that first job, but you're in a role and you're asked, you're wondering, well, how am I doing compared to other people in this occupation? Well, this is a, a, a way to get a sense of that.

[00:26:24] And we are trying to build a tool, which we'll have available in the coming months that it's going to make it even easier for people to do that. There's a lot changing. Yeah. There's a lot changing in the world or, you know, especially with AI economic pressures, you know, just reshaping how we get hired, how we get promoted. This is changing our whole mindset. Like, I think we kind of just answered the question, but if I was to leave you with a final

[00:26:50] question, if there was one thing you wanted the job seeker to take away from this one sort of mind shift about how they choose where they work, what would that be? Use this data to help guide you that, that data can be your friend here. And even if you are, let's say working at a smaller or mid-sized business, think of larger businesses that are.

[00:27:16] Employ people in your same occupation, get a sense, comp here a little bit. But the key takeaway is really that your choice of employer really does matter. We all know, right, that if coming out of school, Terry decides to become a lawyer and Rajiv decides to become a teacher, right? You're almost certainly going to earn more money over the course of your professional life than I am.

[00:27:41] But most of us think that if we're both going into become, you name it, getting in the world, we're both going to be pharmacists that will have roughly similar career outcomes. And what we see here is that there are profound, profound differences. There is a, you know, and now we have, and I think, you know, to some degree, people get to have a sense of that.

[00:28:07] Like, oh yeah, you know, there's some places that are better to work than others, but you kind of hear about it anecdotally. You're not really sure. This finally like starts to demystify that. Yeah. And it's personal. Like I'm imagining the new cocktail conversations, right? Around, hey, did you know that my organization really focuses on people like me just coming out of college for this particular type of role? People have a totally different conversations about where they work, right?

[00:28:36] And on the flip side, and then conversely, right, hopefully it creates a whole new set of conversations for HR professionals out there. Yeah, exactly. Because now they're able to see this down to the occupation level compared to competitors. And we're going to be in a world, right, where more workers are going to be able to see this data. And so there is a, there will be a change in the power dynamic, if you will. Yes. Sounds like there's going to be a lot more transparency out there. I think that's a good thing.

[00:29:04] I think both companies and workers will be better served with greater transparency and hopefully it will lead to better outcomes, not just for workers, but for businesses as well. Um, and, uh, you know, we, we see here that some of the best performing companies are also some of the most successful companies. You know, if, if, if these data can help reduce turnover and churn costs can help companies

[00:29:30] understand how well they are doing with regard to some of the investments they're making in people, right? There are efficiencies to see efficiencies to be gained and there's benefit to all stakeholders, not just workers, but, but also to shareholders. Yeah. Well, Rajiv, that sounds like a whole additional topic that we're going to have to dig into in a future edition. Thank you so much for joining us today.

[00:29:55] This is the kind of conversation that genuinely changes how we approach our next moves. And tell us again, where listeners can explore this list for themselves. So where you work matters.org, where you work matters.org. And, um, I'd love to come back on in a couple of months when we have a really cool new tool that will be even, even easier and more intuitive for, uh, for workers, but your listeners can

[00:30:24] get a headstart by playing around with the data now, but then we'll have something else to, to, to, to share with you coming up that will leverage this data in a whole new way for work. Well, we're going to hold you to that special. Thanks to our producers, brand method media group and our marketing team. And thank you for tuning in to our first guest edition of the pivot effect. If today's episode gave you something to think about, do us a favor, follow the pivot effect

[00:30:51] under the HR huddle umbrella, wherever you listen and share this with one friend who's out there on the job hunt. We'll see you next month with another conversation about the pivots that matter. In the meantime, check out the annual HR system survey for 26, 27 out and it's ready for participation. Go to the sapient insights.com website and click the link and share your data

[00:31:16] about your HR tech stack. Be heard and be sure to listen to our other shows under the huddle. Stacy and Cliff do spilling the tea on HR tech and Cliff has taken over HR. We have a problem and you know, that's always spicy. Thanks again. Have a great week, everybody. Thanks everybody. Thanks for G. Thanks guys. Really appreciate it.