[00:01:06] 014.: David Noe with SpeakEasy HR presented by Payroll Partners. It is Veterans Day. It's November 11th, episode 14. So I want to first just thank all the veterans, the brave men and women who have served our country and have fought for our freedom. Super exciting day for everybody to just thank them and everybody that are impacted by them. Thank you for defending our freedoms. We honor you veterans today and every day.
[00:01:36] So I wanted to make sure to start the episode with that. We have an exciting topic today. Dr. Paul Deschamps is going to get into a topic that I want to learn a lot about, and I'm sure everybody that have tuned in live to watch this with us. We will have the chat on live with YouTube and LinkedIn. So if you do have a question about what we talk about, please chime in.
[00:02:01] So if you've never been on this podcast live, welcome. If you have been on it before, welcome back. But we have a few things to get through before we start in this topic. But I want to first introduce our guest today, Dr. Paul Deschamps or Paul, if you want me to call you Paul. You have 25 years of experience practicing family medicine. You've co-authored a book, Preventing Physician Burnout, Curing the Chaos and Returning Joy
[00:02:31] to Patient Care. You're an Adjunct Professor for the University of Colorado Denver Business School, Principal and Co-Founder of Organizational Wellbeing Solutions, among other things. You create awesome content in social media, TikTok, LinkedIn, and you have a wealth of knowledge on burnout. So ladies and gentlemen, Dr. Paul Deschamps, welcome.
[00:02:54] Thank you, David. It's great to be here. I really appreciate it.
[00:02:57] I don't know if I missed anything with that, but you have done some amazing work. And with some of the things that you have talked about in your speaking and coaching, I think the speaker, coach, author, professor, that's just a quick explanation of everything you've been in.
[00:03:18] So welcome. And I can't wait to get into this topic. So how are you today?
[00:03:23] I'm doing well. Thank you. It's a great day.
[00:03:26] Good. I just wanted to remind everybody that is watching, if you haven't tuned in or checked out the website, it is live, speakeasyhr.com.
[00:03:37] So check out all previous episodes, a new blog that I've started, clips from other episodes, just short clips to catch in and get caught up on some of the topics that we have talked about.
[00:03:49] But we have a couple of items to get through.
[00:03:53] We have a special at the end that Paul will give everybody as a as a special for his services to connect with him.
[00:04:02] And we want to play the envelope icebreaker game.
[00:04:06] Obviously, that's one of the most exciting parts for guests to come on and do that.
[00:04:14] And this show is presented by payroll partners.
[00:04:17] So I want to make sure that we cover what we do at payroll partners.
[00:04:23] Let me see if this is going to actually come up.
[00:04:26] It's been a little bit.
[00:04:28] But do you have a porky peril process?
[00:04:31] Is your current payroll provider hogging your time or money?
[00:04:34] It might be time to check us out at payroll partners dot net.
[00:04:38] See what we can do for you in the space of payroll and HR technology.
[00:04:44] So we are live, like I said, on LinkedIn and YouTube.
[00:04:51] If you are watching live, don't hesitate to comment where you're watching.
[00:04:56] Thank the veterans.
[00:04:58] Ask Paul a question because this this topic we're going to get into, I think, covers a lot of people in in work, in their personal lives and just in anybody's life.
[00:05:09] So this is going to be a really exciting topic that we can get into a little bit.
[00:05:14] So before we start, I want to play a little envelope icebreaker game with.
[00:05:25] Paul, so I've got the 15 questions here.
[00:05:29] Don't know if you read through the questions, but you get to pick one number, one through 15 and and we can see what you pick.
[00:05:37] So, oh, gosh, 15.
[00:05:40] I'll pick three, three.
[00:05:44] All right.
[00:05:47] Envelope three.
[00:05:49] Question is.
[00:05:53] All right.
[00:05:54] What was your first job that you earned a paycheck with taxes deducted?
[00:06:00] I worked in a McDonald's knockoff called Chums, where I cooked burgers, you know, boiled or fried the fries.
[00:06:12] Slopped everything you could slop.
[00:06:15] Had the little hat, the whole thing.
[00:06:17] What was it called?
[00:06:18] Chums.
[00:06:19] Chums.
[00:06:19] Or Chums.
[00:06:20] Where was this?
[00:06:22] Out West?
[00:06:23] This was in Beaverton, Oregon.
[00:06:25] Beaverton, Oregon.
[00:06:27] Yeah.
[00:06:27] I've never seen those in the Midwest.
[00:06:29] So it was only one of them.
[00:06:32] Only one of them.
[00:06:33] OK.
[00:06:34] All right.
[00:06:34] That's that's good to know.
[00:06:36] Do you have any other numbers you want to pick?
[00:06:39] Or I could.
[00:06:40] We have a lead.
[00:06:41] That's fine.
[00:06:43] You what?
[00:06:44] You pick one.
[00:06:45] OK.
[00:06:45] Well, let's I've got a couple people in here.
[00:06:49] We've got Lisa in Namibia.
[00:06:52] Namibia.
[00:06:53] Cool.
[00:06:54] Yeah.
[00:06:54] And we've got Leslie from New Jersey.
[00:06:57] Welcome in, Leslie.
[00:06:58] She is a returning guest or listener.
[00:07:01] So great to have you in here as well.
[00:07:04] Anybody have a number?
[00:07:05] Just put in the comment.
[00:07:07] One through 15.
[00:07:09] One through 15.
[00:07:10] You can't pick three.
[00:07:12] Paul already picked three.
[00:07:13] So let's see if I'll give people about 15 seconds to pick a number and then we'll I've got one
[00:07:18] in mind if if no one if no one picks a number.
[00:07:22] So let's see.
[00:07:25] Anybody have a favorite number?
[00:07:26] One through 15.
[00:07:27] Do not pick three.
[00:07:31] Leslie or Lisa have a number.
[00:07:33] If not.
[00:07:35] Sometimes these feeds are a little lagging, but I'll just pick randomly.
[00:07:40] Oh, four.
[00:07:41] Lisa, pick four.
[00:07:42] All right.
[00:07:42] Perfect.
[00:07:43] Thank you, Lisa.
[00:07:45] All right.
[00:07:45] Number four of the world famous envelope icebreaker game.
[00:07:51] What was your absolute dream job?
[00:07:57] Wow.
[00:07:59] Lisa, you might like this because it actually wasn't a true job job.
[00:08:03] When I was a med student, I spent three months in a small upcountry hospital in Liberia.
[00:08:10] And I was at times I was actually I was a med student.
[00:08:17] So I was learning a lot as I was there for a while and staffing came and went through a
[00:08:21] couple of times when there was a crisis.
[00:08:23] I was actually the senior person at the on site in the hospital is 100 bed hospital.
[00:08:29] It had 30 P dash board with 30 kids with measles.
[00:08:36] It had just amazing array of pathology, although not most of the pathology we see here in the
[00:08:41] States.
[00:08:42] But it was just a fantastic experience.
[00:08:44] People were wonderful, felt so useful in the work that I was doing.
[00:08:48] And every day was an adventure.
[00:08:51] Wow.
[00:08:51] Jeez.
[00:08:52] Nice.
[00:08:53] So that was where in your in your in your career?
[00:08:58] Was that the early?
[00:08:58] Well, I was it was just as in my fourth year of medical school before us while I was finishing
[00:09:05] up med school before I started my residency.
[00:09:07] So, you know, for physicians in the States, four years of college, four years of med school
[00:09:12] for me, three years of residency in family medicine.
[00:09:14] And then I started my first job.
[00:09:16] So still pretty early in my career, but definitely something I look back on really fondly.
[00:09:21] Yeah.
[00:09:22] Wow.
[00:09:23] So have you traveled around the world with your work?
[00:09:27] Has it been a lot of just being in the United States or was that trip just one of many?
[00:09:35] I've done a moderate amount of trips around the world, just but not sort of dipping my toe
[00:09:43] into health care, never really extended shifts somewhere.
[00:09:49] But I've been to India, Mexico, Haiti, seeing a lot of places that are tough places where
[00:09:56] people suffer and a lot of opportunity.
[00:09:59] And I've also worked across the United States.
[00:10:01] I worked in California, Colorado, Pennsylvania, really gotten back and forth.
[00:10:06] And Pennsylvania was rural Pennsylvania, California, mostly Bay Area, sort of suburban,
[00:10:12] urban, and Colorado was rural up in the mountains.
[00:10:15] That was a, that was a great job as well.
[00:10:18] I was, I worked in Breckenridge for eight years as a small town family doctor and the ER doctor
[00:10:22] at the base of the ski hill.
[00:10:24] So that was stories, but also we're going to get into talking about, you know, burnout.
[00:10:30] And to me, so much of burnout, what's important about it is leadership.
[00:10:34] And there I got into leadership as well.
[00:10:36] We merged a bunch of small practices into a larger practice because kind of change was
[00:10:42] happening in corporate healthcare at the time.
[00:10:44] And we needed to do it as doctors just to keep our voice at the table.
[00:10:48] Yeah.
[00:10:50] Wow.
[00:10:50] That's, that's crazy.
[00:10:52] Yeah.
[00:10:52] So let's, let's get into this a little bit.
[00:10:54] Cause I think we have a lot to cover.
[00:10:56] I have, I have a lot of questions for you.
[00:10:58] I'm sure there's a lot that you want to cover.
[00:10:59] So, you know, among the, the, the work you're doing, you are an adjunct professor for a university
[00:11:06] of Colorado.
[00:11:08] That's in, and you're living in California.
[00:11:10] So is that more of a remote kind of role or how's, how's that work?
[00:11:16] So I actually got my MBA at the university of Colorado Denver.
[00:11:20] Okay.
[00:11:21] I got in touch with folks there and this opportunity came up to teach an introductory course on leading
[00:11:26] individuals and teams for the healthcare MBA students at, at CU Denver.
[00:11:33] And, and so I actually was on campus twice.
[00:11:36] I flew in for the first class and the last class, the classes in between we did virtually.
[00:11:41] Okay.
[00:11:42] Very neat.
[00:11:43] So you're still doing that.
[00:11:45] Correct.
[00:11:46] Yeah.
[00:11:46] So I've done it once.
[00:11:47] We're getting ready to do it probably again next year and looking at another class or two
[00:11:52] to teach as well.
[00:11:53] Okay.
[00:11:54] And then you coauthored a book, which that's been more on the physician burnout.
[00:12:02] And, and what kind of struck you to do that?
[00:12:05] Was that something that you thought about for a while?
[00:12:08] Was it something that you just at some point decided like you had a lot to go through in
[00:12:15] this topic and felt like a, a, a book to really help people understand it?
[00:12:20] You know, what led you to write that, that book?
[00:12:22] Yeah.
[00:12:23] Yeah.
[00:12:23] You know, it was really kind of a culmination of a journey, uh, as practicing as a doctor
[00:12:28] for 25 years, every day in my office, I was slowly burning out a little bit wanting to fix
[00:12:34] things that were wrong.
[00:12:36] And I was gradually getting greater leadership positions.
[00:12:39] Ultimately, I became the CEO of a 300 physician group in the central Valley of California.
[00:12:44] Okay.
[00:12:45] And there I saw the opportunity to actually truly make a difference, uh, and started to put into
[00:12:52] place a way to fix, um, fix the challenges that the docs were having.
[00:12:57] You know, as a, as the CEO at the time I became CEO, we were $9 million in the hole.
[00:13:04] The pressure to fix things quickly was intense and it was really tempting to try to micromanage
[00:13:10] and issue mandates.
[00:13:11] But I knew that that would create problems.
[00:13:13] I mean, I spent these 25 years myself wanting autonomy to fix things as a doc and, uh, and
[00:13:20] yeah.
[00:13:20] And so we found a way to actually give people local control to act locally, to fix the problems
[00:13:27] that they identified in their offices.
[00:13:29] But at the same time, not worry that, you know, if we give 300 doctors autonomy, we're going
[00:13:33] to fall apart from entropy.
[00:13:35] If everybody's going a different direction.
[00:13:37] Yes.
[00:13:37] We also had to help people think globally and think about an align around the common values,
[00:13:45] the shared values that brought meaning to our work.
[00:13:48] And so we, we developed this formula, a management system, and that really allowed people that local
[00:13:55] autonomy and collective, uh, vision working together around a shared goal.
[00:14:01] And that was really key to helping us address burnout because burnout, the problem, you know,
[00:14:08] the problem isn't people for the most, for the most part, people are pretty resilient and they're
[00:14:14] put in place in jobs that are very difficult, uh, to do because there's just so many pressures,
[00:14:21] so many changes, all these things happening.
[00:14:22] And if we don't rethink and redesign the job, so they're doable, then people need resilience
[00:14:28] just to cope with it.
[00:14:29] Yeah.
[00:14:30] The other, if we can get ahead of it, kind of like preventive medicine, create a workplace
[00:14:35] where people can thrive, then you don't need as much of the resilience support.
[00:14:40] Yeah.
[00:14:40] And people can, people can do well, businesses do well.
[00:14:44] It just create, and, and, and people bring positivity from their workplace home to their families
[00:14:50] and communities as well.
[00:14:51] Yeah.
[00:14:52] So creating that healthy place for people to work, uh, really became a passion for me.
[00:14:59] And I found a way to do it actually using a consulting firm that helped us was a lean
[00:15:04] consulting firm.
[00:15:05] They focused on first, not just how to be efficient, but how do you respect people who know,
[00:15:11] who have great ideas about how to fix things and give them that opportunity?
[00:15:14] Yeah.
[00:15:15] So I just took the data beyond that.
[00:15:18] And I actually joined the consulting firm that, uh, that I'd used to help transform my group.
[00:15:25] And when I joined that firm, they said, yeah, well, it'd be great to write a book about your
[00:15:30] experience with that.
[00:15:31] So that's how it came to be.
[00:15:32] Yeah.
[00:15:33] So take us back to when burnout started to become something discussed, because I feel like
[00:15:39] mental health and other challenges that people face in the workplace.
[00:15:46] Now, burnout is definitely one of them.
[00:15:49] People get disengaged and they just get, get burned out.
[00:15:54] So when, when did that start becoming a discussion and was that something early on that you felt
[00:16:02] like you had a way to help with that or, you know, take us back to when it first started
[00:16:07] becoming a topic in conversations.
[00:16:11] That's a great question, David.
[00:16:13] I'm trying to think of, you know, it all kind of evolved gradually for me.
[00:16:17] So trying to find a focal point where it really kicked in, it's a little tough.
[00:16:22] I would say sometime, not so much in the eighties, maybe in the nineties, it started to become
[00:16:29] a thing, you know, the world started changing faster.
[00:16:33] Corporate structures, not just in healthcare, but in many industries saw a lot of merger and
[00:16:38] acquisition activity.
[00:16:40] Yeah.
[00:16:41] You know, disruption from technology started coming in.
[00:16:44] And, and so, you know, things started changing faster and faster, made it harder and harder
[00:16:49] for people to keep up.
[00:16:51] And the old management styles just didn't work anymore.
[00:16:55] Yeah.
[00:16:55] You know, the old top down command and control, this is the way it is.
[00:16:59] Um, it just, people would put up with it in the past, but it just failed so many ways.
[00:17:04] Yeah.
[00:17:05] And I think it was at that transition point somewhere in the nineties, early 2000, perhaps
[00:17:09] globally.
[00:17:11] So for some, for someone that has heard the term burnout, uh, in, in your own words, how would
[00:17:19] you define burnout?
[00:17:21] Yeah.
[00:17:21] Yeah.
[00:17:21] I, I'd use the same words that the world health organization uses.
[00:17:25] There's three dimensions of burnout.
[00:17:27] The first is exhaustion.
[00:17:29] You've just given everything you've got.
[00:17:31] Your job is overwhelming.
[00:17:32] You've given everything you've got and you've got nothing left to give.
[00:17:35] And when you get to that point, the next dimension of burnout shows up, uh, which is cynicism or
[00:17:42] depersonalization.
[00:17:43] And it's a natural reaction to a self-protective mechanism.
[00:17:48] When you're overwhelmed, you start to have to protect yourself from your organization, from
[00:17:53] your customers or clients, from your coworkers.
[00:17:55] And that's, that's cynicism as a, as a effective way to do that.
[00:18:00] What it does though, when you combine cynicism and exhaustion, you start to see the third dimension
[00:18:06] of burnout, which is that sense of inefficacy.
[00:18:09] Like what I'm doing doesn't really matter.
[00:18:13] It just kind of gnaws away at you.
[00:18:15] And, and it's, you know, it's in many ways, it's the most deeply disturbing part of it because
[00:18:21] you start to feel like either you're worthless or, or your efforts are not worthwhile.
[00:18:28] So it's those three dimensions of exhaustion, cynicism, and that personal inefficacy that
[00:18:34] are really how burnout shows up.
[00:18:38] Okay.
[00:18:39] No, that, that makes total sense.
[00:18:41] And I think signs of burnout and, and how to identify those as a leader, as someone in,
[00:18:47] in, in an organization that has the ability to make an impact, whether it's HR, uh, direct,
[00:18:56] you know, leadership manager or whatever, what, what kind of signs do you first kind of see in
[00:19:04] somebody that you might feel like there's going to be a future issue where you want to try to get out
[00:19:09] in front of that?
[00:19:11] Yeah.
[00:19:11] Yeah.
[00:19:12] Um, so when, so I think it's important, we'd launch into this discussion that you see the
[00:19:18] signs of burnout in a person, but those signs of burnout in a person are an indication, not
[00:19:24] a dysfunction in the person, but a dysfunction in that person's workplace.
[00:19:28] Yeah.
[00:19:29] And so when, when that person's in that dysfunctional workplace, it starts to show up as
[00:19:36] disengagement as, uh, you know, absenteeism or presenteeism is, um, you know, as disconnection
[00:19:45] from coworkers, uh, as, um, you know, frustration errors happening, um, any number of things where
[00:19:54] it's just, it seems like performance is decreasing, uh, teams are not functioning as well.
[00:19:59] And those are the start, you know, you just, it's a kind of a general gestalt of negativity.
[00:20:05] And then that can lead to, in the individual ultimately leads to things like depression,
[00:20:12] substance abuse, family dysfunction, um, and even suicide.
[00:20:17] Uh, and you know, all those are downstream impacts of this.
[00:20:22] And healthcare, I've heard people in HR burned out right now.
[00:20:27] I've, you know, I've been in the healthcare organization in my previous, uh, career in,
[00:20:32] in, you know, in previous roles.
[00:20:34] And so part of my career has been in the, in the healthcare industry, working in an HR
[00:20:39] function capacity role to support physicians, to support practice managers in a physician
[00:20:46] setting.
[00:20:46] So I have seen it.
[00:20:48] And, and at the time I, I wasn't having to face it in a way to make a, a change or an impact
[00:20:55] of burnout.
[00:20:56] It was more how to boost morale, how to fix environment issues when there were issues with
[00:21:02] physicians, butting heads or staff not getting along and, and trying to create a better,
[00:21:08] you know, healthy workplace environment.
[00:21:11] So I guess for burnout, does it, does it vary based on generation?
[00:21:17] Like, are there, are there signs or ways that people in their twenties and thirties get
[00:21:22] burned out versus people that are like at the later stages of their career, or is it all
[00:21:27] pretty much similar in, in nature?
[00:21:30] You know, that again, good question.
[00:21:33] The, um, in healthcare, it seems to be a bi- across generations.
[00:21:38] It's kind of bimodal.
[00:21:40] Um, there's also big gender gaps as well.
[00:21:43] Um, more women burn out than men because, you know, just unfortunately the way our societies
[00:21:48] are designed, women have two jobs, their job of running the household as well as running,
[00:21:54] you know, doing their job at work where men often aren't as involved in the household.
[00:21:59] Um, not fair, not the way it should be.
[00:22:01] Um, we have a lot of work to do to fix that, but that's a reality and it shows up.
[00:22:06] Um, the younger generations, um, are burning out, uh, a little faster mid-generation, not
[00:22:15] quite so much necessarily.
[00:22:16] And then older generations of physicians are till you get close to the point where they're
[00:22:21] a few years from retirement and then they kind of, um, it starts to decrease at that point.
[00:22:26] But there's so many factors that, uh, it even varies sometimes, uh, by organization, by
[00:22:32] organization, which who's feeling it more intensely.
[00:22:35] Yeah.
[00:22:36] Yeah.
[00:22:37] Okay.
[00:22:37] Yeah.
[00:22:38] Now we have people working remotely, people work in the hybrid environments in office.
[00:22:44] I think more and more companies are going back to the way it was pre-COVID in, in office
[00:22:49] setting, you know, and getting back to where they were, you know, before 2020.
[00:22:54] But, you know, I feel like from what I've seen, what I've heard with, with work groups,
[00:23:00] it's more challenging to keep an engaged workforce when they are virtual.
[00:23:05] I feel like, so I, I, I don't know what you've seen with the latest statistics or, or how workplace
[00:23:13] environments when they are remote, are they seeing a lower rate of burnout or is it, that's not really
[00:23:22] a factor is, is, is that work schedule playing a factor in, in helping people not get so burned
[00:23:29] out, I guess.
[00:23:31] Um, you know, there are so many dynamics there because if, if you're not as in, if you're working
[00:23:37] virtually, you don't get the stress of the commute, which can be a real benefit.
[00:23:42] Oh yeah.
[00:23:43] But you also don't get the personal connection to the same degree with your coworkers.
[00:23:48] Right.
[00:23:48] Um, and there's a lot of challenge there.
[00:23:51] The workload itself can, you know, it can be just as overwhelming virtually as it is,
[00:23:56] as it is in the office.
[00:23:59] Yeah.
[00:23:59] Um, there's actually maybe one way to think about this.
[00:24:03] There, there's five, there's six drivers of burnout that the, the, the researchers, um,
[00:24:09] 40 years ago, um, research Christina Maslach and Michael Leiter identified those three dimensions
[00:24:15] of burnout.
[00:24:15] They also identified six drivers that they call job person mismatches.
[00:24:20] Right.
[00:24:20] And when we can think about how those apply in both the in-office and virtual setting,
[00:24:25] uh, the first of, the first of which is, um, uh, those drivers is work overload and they
[00:24:32] showed it drives exhaustion.
[00:24:33] And I like to sort of joke, uh, really, I think we all could have figured out that when you're
[00:24:40] working too hard, you get exhausted.
[00:24:42] Yeah.
[00:24:42] Um, and the challenge is most people that they think all there is to burnout is I'm overloaded
[00:24:47] and I'm exhausted.
[00:24:48] They stopped there and there's so much more to it.
[00:24:51] Yeah.
[00:24:52] And there's opportunities.
[00:24:54] So many opportunities, almost every work, every job to redesign the work so that you take waste
[00:25:00] and administrivia out of the work and let people focus on what is most important, valuable and
[00:25:05] meaningful to them.
[00:25:06] And people don't burn out if they're focused on things that are valuable and meaningful.
[00:25:10] Um, that's one of the big problems in healthcare.
[00:25:12] Doctors only spend a third of their time doing the things that actually bring them professional
[00:25:16] fulfillment in two thirds of their time.
[00:25:18] It's crazy.
[00:25:19] You know, you've got doctors acting as stenographers or typing, they're fighting with
[00:25:23] insurance companies about prior authorizations or running all over the hospital or the clinic
[00:25:27] looking for support.
[00:25:29] Um, so redesigning work can make it have a huge impact on that work overload and not that
[00:25:35] many places invest the amount that they could to realize the value of that redesign.
[00:25:41] But these other five drivers of burnout that Maslach and Leiter identified include a lack of control
[00:25:48] and autonomy, insufficient appreciation, recognition, and reward breakdown of community connection
[00:25:54] and collegiality absence of fairness and, um, values conflicts.
[00:26:00] And those five drivers have everything to do with how you lead, whether you're leading a team as
[00:26:06] small as two or three people, or you're the CEO of a 20 to 30,000 person organization.
[00:26:11] If you lead in a way that make those drivers worse, you actually, if you micromanage,
[00:26:17] you actually drive cynicism and you can lead in a different way that drives engagement that
[00:26:23] actually counters that completely by reducing the impact of each of those drivers.
[00:26:28] And that's where the opportunities to lead and manage are so great.
[00:26:32] And the opportunity for true management and leadership development, um, because so many
[00:26:38] people don't know a different way to lead or manage they're under the under, under such pressure to
[00:26:43] deliver on some metric that they're one up is expecting them to achieve, whether it's achievable
[00:26:49] or not.
[00:26:49] And they've never been mentored or shown a way to lead differently.
[00:26:54] So they micromanage just hoping to achieve that outcome when in reality, being able to take the
[00:27:01] approach to empower their people and align their people, um, and then achieve that out, you get so
[00:27:08] much more engagement.
[00:27:09] You're, you're able to achieve outcomes.
[00:27:11] You wouldn't imagine you could, you know, at the end of five years, as CEO of this large medical
[00:27:16] group, I was in charge of, we got recognized as the top performer in quality of care among 170 other
[00:27:24] medical groups across the state of California two years in a row.
[00:27:28] And this was a formal study by consumer reports in the California health performance information
[00:27:32] system.
[00:27:33] We did not even know they were doing the study one day by one of my doctors came walking
[00:27:37] in with consumer reports on his hand and says, Hey, we're the best group in the state.
[00:27:41] Um, but we, and we weren't, we weren't trying to achieve that.
[00:27:45] We were just trying to, you know, make the thing work well.
[00:27:48] And in the process, our physician satisfaction went from the 45th up to the 87th percentile.
[00:27:53] You know, that our doctors were thriving and it's, it's just, it's a matter of how we put into
[00:28:01] place the, these opportunities for people to achieve what they're there.
[00:28:06] You know, most people are motivated.
[00:28:08] They come to work.
[00:28:08] They really have something they're interested in.
[00:28:11] Um, they want to achieve, they find their professional fulfillment, their self-actualization
[00:28:17] through this process.
[00:28:18] Um, but they just get so little opportunity.
[00:28:21] And by managing differently, we can give them that opportunity.
[00:28:26] Yeah.
[00:28:27] That amazing discussion as Lisa had said.
[00:28:30] So thank you for, uh, the comments.
[00:28:33] Same with Lucy.
[00:28:36] It's, it's definitely accurate.
[00:28:38] And so I think a lot of that falls in line with, like you said, it's, it doesn't matter if it's a
[00:28:43] manager that has two or three direct reports or CEO of, of a 30,000 employee company.
[00:28:51] Cause it, it really all is the same focus and helping to understand what motivates
[00:28:59] your team and what will keep them motivated in, in their work, giving them purposeful work,
[00:29:07] making sure that they understand what, what it takes to be successful in their role.
[00:29:14] Because a lot of people aren't just going to come to you and say, oh, I'm burned out.
[00:29:18] What do I do?
[00:29:19] Like they don't bring that up.
[00:29:21] Some people will, I I've rarely heard someone come to me and say, I'm burned out.
[00:29:26] I've heard it just a couple of times.
[00:29:27] And it's kind of like, you know, they're, they're sharing their frustration with me about,
[00:29:36] yes, I'm burned out.
[00:29:37] Here's why.
[00:29:38] So let's try to figure out solutions to help you with that.
[00:29:42] Are you, are you needing us to hire more people?
[00:29:44] Are you in a managerial role, but you have so much on your plate because you don't know how to
[00:29:51] keep your team in line. So you're getting involved in problems that you shouldn't be.
[00:29:55] So it really just, you have to identify where, where people are in their, in their position to
[00:30:04] eliminate the, the, you know, waste of efficiency. Right. So I always try to find that. Where can you
[00:30:12] avoid wasting time so people don't get burned out? Because every, every organization is going to be
[00:30:20] different. So I think, you know, are there, are there, are there some examples where you have
[00:30:24] seen that, where people share that they are burned out and you don't even, you don't even know it
[00:30:33] because they don't really, you know, show it, but they, they truly come to somebody or it may not be
[00:30:39] you, but someone you work with and say, Hey, I'm, I'm burned out. Like, what do I do? Like, I, I love my
[00:30:44] job. I love this company. I love working here, but I'm burned out. You know, has that come up before?
[00:30:50] It's becoming more acceptable, but there's a huge stigma for most people to admit to burnout. It can
[00:30:57] be, depending on the culture you're working, it can be a real career limiting statement to make.
[00:31:03] Yeah. And so people are very hesitant to do it. I mean, that's been a huge challenge with physicians.
[00:31:09] You know, there's, there's three to 400 physician suicides in the U S every year, and there are
[00:31:14] physician suicides across the world, but the, um, the stigma of a doctor saying they're burned out.
[00:31:21] You know, the impact that would have on their future career is, is huge. And so there's a,
[00:31:27] there's a significant effort going on actually across the country, right across the U S right now,
[00:31:32] and actually going international around reducing that stigma of people admitting that they're stressed,
[00:31:39] that they're doctors in particular, or nurses stressed, burned out, looking for, uh, psychological
[00:31:45] health connecting with the therapist that, um, and, and, and having that be something that's valued and
[00:31:51] seen as a sign of strength rather than a sign of weakness. Uh, it's a big, it's a, it's a big
[00:31:58] challenge and a big deal. Yeah. In terms of redesigning the work, that's where, you know,
[00:32:04] bringing in some outside resource can be really helpful. If that resource is, uh, takes the approach
[00:32:12] of not, not coming to say, we know how to do it better. Here's what you do, but you all know how to,
[00:32:19] you have a lot of good ideas you'd like to try. You just have never gotten the opportunity to do those.
[00:32:24] Yeah. Let us, will we have the expertise in helping a team do that process far more efficiently?
[00:32:32] So the team's not wasting time trying to figure out how to do something like that, that they've never done before.
[00:32:37] Um, but people come out with amazing, amazing improvements, reductions of the time it takes to get work done,
[00:32:44] reduction in the number of hours people spend, um, and what, particularly in HR, uh, there's many places.
[00:32:51] I certainly am familiar with healthcare work. It can take months and months and months to replace a nurse who leaves by the time it goes through all the
[00:32:59] complexities of the HR process, the credentialing processes, all these other things.
[00:33:04] And so much of that time we've gone, we've taken groups through processes where they've taken it from
[00:33:09] six months down to 30 days. Yeah. And, um, and you know, there's no deterioration in this, in the quality
[00:33:15] of the service. In fact, it's improved. Um, and it's just a matter of everybody and everybody who
[00:33:21] touches that process. All those stakeholders have no idea what impact, what they do has on everybody else.
[00:33:27] And once they all come in a room together and learn it, it's amazing what you can do. So, you know,
[00:33:32] even this burnout that does hit HR officers, it does hit the HR process that gosh, there's just so
[00:33:38] many opportunities to make a difference. Yeah. And, and, uh, Lucy commented, many people do not care,
[00:33:44] uh, when you tell them you are stressed, this occurs even in HR. So it's, uh, it's unfortunate.
[00:33:51] And I think it's, it's becoming more and more of a conversation, especially with,
[00:33:57] you know, my previous guest last Monday was talking about mental health. We kicked off the
[00:34:03] month it's men's national, uh, health awareness month. So it's just really,
[00:34:08] it's really interesting that this is becoming more and more of a conversation to, to find the right way
[00:34:15] an organization to, to support their team, knowing that they're dealing with a lot in their life, work,
[00:34:21] life, family, you know, outside stressors and things that they will bring into the workplace.
[00:34:27] And it may cause burnout. It may cause them frustration to decide to quit the job and move
[00:34:34] on. So then you have positions that are sometimes hard to fill. So I think trends into next year,
[00:34:41] obviously recruiting and filling jobs and, and folks that are still having a hard time
[00:34:48] finding good people to hire is still going to be a problem. It's still going to be a challenge.
[00:34:54] So I guess what, what advice would you give if somebody is watching that is in an HR role,
[00:35:01] a manager role, someone that can make a, uh, an influence on the workplace, you know, what would some
[00:35:06] of those steps be or things to look out for or, or tell them kind of what would be some good steps to
[00:35:15] focusing more on burnout and, and, and how to, uh, I guess, avoid it, how to help, you know, is there,
[00:35:22] is there some, some steps to take and just evaluating, getting feedback, you know, how,
[00:35:28] where would you tell someone to start if, if they're trying to make this an impact?
[00:35:31] Yeah. You know, depending on what role you have, there's different ways to start. Um, the, the,
[00:35:39] the person who has the most influence on burnout is the CEO of the organization. No question about it.
[00:35:46] They set the tone for the culture. And if they make the statement that, you know, if they commit
[00:35:51] themselves to this and own it, this is not a, it's something you can delegate some of the, the steps
[00:35:58] involved, but you can't delegate ownership of this kind of transformational change in the culture of
[00:36:03] an organization. And, and too often, I think we, you know, CEOs have so much on their plate.
[00:36:09] If there's an opportunity to have a wellness officer director, they can think they can assign it away.
[00:36:16] And it doesn't, it doesn't work that way because we really have to change the culture
[00:36:19] in the organization itself. Um, and it's doable once you have the process and you can see how to do it,
[00:36:26] what you can. And then what I tell people in high leadership level positions, the first thing they
[00:36:31] can do is to go shadow people while they're working, actually see the challenges they have trying to
[00:36:38] do the job because it's when you're in a high leadership position, you have no clue. Um, you can't,
[00:36:45] it's impossible for you to know because people aren't going to come and tell you the problems.
[00:36:48] Um, and, but if you go and look and with the supportive approach of I'm here to help,
[00:36:54] and it takes preparation. You don't just drop in out of blue, unannounced and not freak people out.
[00:36:59] But if you come in and say, Hey, we're here to, we're trying to figure this out. We're going to
[00:37:02] try to make a difference. I'd love to understand what the challenges are. And I'd love to just watch
[00:37:07] your work, see what you're doing. Um, then it can, it can make a difference, uh, and particularly over
[00:37:14] time. So watching, observing, asking people what could be improved, asking them what they think
[00:37:21] you as the CEO or the senior leader need to know in order to help them do their jobs better,
[00:37:26] taking notes, taking action, even small actions immediately and communicating those broadly.
[00:37:30] Yeah. If you're, if you're a frontline manager with a smaller team, um, just thanking your people
[00:37:38] every day for something they did that made a difference and being specific about what it was
[00:37:43] they did, how it made a difference, what impact it had, and even how it made you feel. Um, to have those
[00:37:50] kind of things are huge and they're easy to do. It doesn't take a whole program design to do that.
[00:37:55] We're doing that tomorrow. Um, and you can start shadowing pretty quickly if you're in a leadership
[00:38:01] position, but even the CHRO, um, can benefit from going and shadowing and seeing what the challenges
[00:38:08] are. Uh, it's, it's something that everybody can do.
[00:38:13] Yeah. I'm just bringing up some of the comments because I think some of these things are,
[00:38:18] they're basic. It's empathetic leadership. People want to feel heard and cared for.
[00:38:23] They're coming to do a job and they, they want to feel like the managers, the leaders are going to
[00:38:31] show empathy and just some of the things that a lot of people don't focus on enough. So it's,
[00:38:38] it's one thing to say that you do these things. It's another thing to actually show it and, and
[00:38:45] improve that you are going to show empathy. So acting and being that, you know, model of the company
[00:38:53] in that kind of role, the CEO, the CFO, whoever it is, the manager,
[00:38:57] you know, acting and talking about empathy and showing it and, and really just helping people
[00:39:03] understand when they have issues, they, they want to feel heard and they want to have someone to go
[00:39:09] to, whether it's an HR or somebody so that they can find a way to address it and, and, and help them
[00:39:15] through those things. And, and that's going to go a long way. And, and when you have people like that,
[00:39:20] that feel like their company is behind them and supporting them, you're going to probably keep that
[00:39:25] employee longer. And if they're a good worker and a good employee, then you're not going to have open
[00:39:31] positions and having to fill positions every month. So, so there's organizations that have been doing
[00:39:38] this well for a long time. They, you know, they went through whatever major crisis we've had over the
[00:39:44] last few decades and did not lose employees. And, you know, they, they did not have a great resignation
[00:39:51] and they've never had trouble recruiting people because their culture is so well known in their
[00:39:58] communities. People want to come to work there. It's just a matter of invest, create, it takes time.
[00:40:04] The other thing is when you first, if you're trying to do this and you're motivated and you go in and
[00:40:08] you do something different, it may not be well accepted right at first immediately. If it's a
[00:40:13] significant change, people will be suspicious. You got to stick with it. It takes time. It can take weeks,
[00:40:20] months or years, depending on how big the changes you're trying to achieve, but you're doing the
[00:40:25] right thing. So it's, and you're in a position that makes a difference. So it's worth pursuing it.
[00:40:31] Right. Yeah. As Brittany said, something small can make a big difference and it's free. And that's
[00:40:36] spot on. Lisa, this is the main podcast. This is an amazing podcast and guests. Thank you, David.
[00:40:42] It seems basic, but it is not. So it, it really is like, it's the basics and, and not overcomplicating
[00:40:51] it because it doesn't have to be complicated. And if you have a culture and core values that
[00:40:58] really align with that, then people are going to see it. And you're going to have employees who
[00:41:03] are going to make the workplace better, make the culture better. So as you said, like the,
[00:41:10] the top shelf topic, the problem with burnout is the workplace, not the worker. So,
[00:41:14] you know, fixing that workplace issue isn't going to happen overnight. Like you said,
[00:41:19] it might take some time, but if everybody is bought into it and the CEO, the owner leadership are kind of
[00:41:27] steering that, that shift and, and showing employees that they, they will feel heard and,
[00:41:34] and they will feel valued and, and hopefully see that the empathy behind the, the leadership team,
[00:41:41] it really might make a huge impact on the mental health, the burnout ratio of the company. Because
[00:41:47] if you gave everybody a poll and said on a scale from one to 10, how, how are you with burnout right now?
[00:41:54] You know, some people may not even respond in an honest way. They might just say, oh, I'm,
[00:42:01] I'm good, you know, because they don't want to maybe put themselves in a position where,
[00:42:06] like you said before, if you bring up the fact that you're burned out, you know, what is the company
[00:42:10] going to do in that situation? Feel like, oh, they can't handle this job? Should we find a replacement
[00:42:18] or help them and support them and say, yeah, we, we hear you. You're burned out. We hear you.
[00:42:24] Let's, let's find ways to fix it. So what, what other trends in, in, in this topic of burnout
[00:42:34] do you feel like leaders and, and business owners and HR are going to face next year in 2025?
[00:42:40] Yeah, 2025. Wow. You know, real quick, one thing about if you're in a middle management position
[00:42:46] and you start to pursue this and you don't necessarily have support from above you in the
[00:42:50] company, which unfortunately is the case. I've certainly been in those situations myself.
[00:42:55] You can still make a big difference. It's also important to do as much as you can to keep connected
[00:43:02] with the people you report up to explain to them what you're doing and why. Because it's you, if
[00:43:08] you're acting very differently, even if you're getting great results, people may think this person's
[00:43:14] not really a team player, even if they're a great, you know, getting great results and that can even put
[00:43:19] your own career at risk. So do pursue this work, but do to make sure you're talking to your one up and
[00:43:27] making sure they understand why you're doing what you're doing and that you've got, you know, some
[00:43:33] agreement and approval and support from them in the process. Going into 2025, the, I think we're going
[00:43:43] to see, well, there's a couple of things. First of all, we're coming out of this election that's just
[00:43:48] been brutal on personal relationships and, you know, in so many companies, people, you've got people on a
[00:43:56] team who are on both ends of the political spectrum and helping those teams heal is going to be so
[00:44:03] important. Coming back to those basics of building that community and respect, finding what common
[00:44:10] values we can find and building around those, absolutely vital. With the changes that are happening
[00:44:17] with technology now with AI, there's going to be so much threat of disruption that being on top of,
[00:44:25] you know, being as on top of it as we can is really key. And, you know, being aware that people
[00:44:32] will start to feel threatened. There's, you know, not only are blue collar jobs going by the wayside,
[00:44:37] but white collar jobs could go by the wayside as well. Helping be learning to work with AI,
[00:44:43] use AI to your advantage rather than develop the sense of fear that it's going to take away from my job or
[00:44:51] the jobs of my people. Those people who figure out how to work it well are far more likely to be the
[00:44:57] ones that succeed and actually maintain theirs and their people's jobs in the process. I think those are
[00:45:04] the two big, between the political factions and the, which are going to lead to some financial
[00:45:10] disruptions probably as well. But the tech disruption, I think is the thing I wonder about the most.
[00:45:16] Well, next Monday you can tune in. We'll be talking AI. I have an expert in AI coming on. So she will,
[00:45:23] I've seen her live and she's incredible. So AI is the next topic for next Monday. So you have a really
[00:45:35] good, clear content on your website, pauldeshauntmd.com. So anybody that is watching,
[00:45:43] this takes you out to his website. It's got a lot of information. It's got his book,
[00:45:47] if anyone is interested in looking at that, but you've got some really good content. You've got a
[00:45:51] blog, you've got, you've got some really good key aspects of, of your focus. So if anybody wants to
[00:45:58] learn more about Dr. Paul Deshaunt, what he does, look him up. And for those watching live, because this
[00:46:06] will be on demand on podcast platforms after it's finished live. But if you scan this QR code on the
[00:46:13] screen, it's a 30 minute free consult with Paul. If you want to connect with him personally and kind
[00:46:21] of see what your personal struggles are, challenges, things that you want to talk to him about, see what
[00:46:25] he can maybe do for you and your organization. If you are on TikTok, he's got some great content on
[00:46:31] TikTok. That's how he and I connected and LinkedIn as well. So you can find his information on there,
[00:46:38] or you can go to pauldeshauntmd.com. So anything else you want to add to the conversation, any comments
[00:46:48] or anything that we didn't cover that you think are worth bringing up? You know, David, first of all,
[00:46:53] just, I appreciate so much the work you do this opportunity, you know, your podcast, it's amazing.
[00:46:59] You're covering so many great topics and the opportunity to share my topic here as well. I
[00:47:04] really value, I think the one thing for people to be aware of, while all of my prior experience has
[00:47:10] been in healthcare, I'm the work I do now is really industry agnostic. So don't feel like, you know,
[00:47:15] if you're wondering if this would work for you and you want to talk to me, don't feel like, oh,
[00:47:18] I'm not in healthcare, I can't talk to them. The same principles apply. I've worked with podcast
[00:47:23] companies. I've worked with franchise companies that do hair salons, you name it. They all,
[00:47:31] the same principles are everywhere. So feel free. My mission now is just to help make as many
[00:47:36] workplaces, healthy workplaces as I can. Yeah, you're doing amazing work and we need more of
[00:47:42] people like you out there to help. So there's, there's a lot to be done, but you can only do so
[00:47:47] much. So we obviously rely on people watching this podcast and learning about what you do and find
[00:47:55] ways that they can bring what they learn back to their workplace and their job and personal life.
[00:48:00] Cause like I said, there's, there's a lot that people have gone through the last few years and in,
[00:48:05] in a pandemic. And if it's been a layoff, they've dealt with HR individuals, you know,
[00:48:12] I've had some really struggled, you know, challenging situations in my career the last few years. So
[00:48:19] it's, it's something that we will always, I think, focus on in the future, mental health awareness and
[00:48:26] trying to avoid burnout because as different generations come into the workplace, how they
[00:48:32] work and how they interact and how they are managed is going to be very different as what we've seen in
[00:48:38] the past. So you've, you've seen a lot of that. You've seen the evolution. So again, anybody that
[00:48:43] wants to hear more about how Dr. Paul Deshaunt can help you personally in your position, certainly
[00:48:50] scan that QR code or go to his website and make sure to connect with him. So I really appreciate
[00:48:58] your time today. It's been great to talk and, and finally get connected. We've been, you know,
[00:49:04] chatting about this for quite some time. And so keep doing what you're doing. And I, I really,
[00:49:09] you know, value what you do and appreciate your time. So, um, wish, wish you the best.
[00:49:16] And, uh, you have any, uh, upcoming books or anything you're working on in the future?
[00:49:22] Um, no, well, I have, I think about books, books are, it's a lot of work to write a book. So
[00:49:28] I'm, I've thoughts, but I'm sticking right now. I think the tick tocks and blog posts and podcasts.
[00:49:34] Yeah. Well, I so appreciate, uh, you and the work you're doing. Yeah. Hosting a podcast is a lot of
[00:49:41] work. Um, yeah, I haven't taken that on yet. I just, I'm happy to be a guest and I really, I'm glad for
[00:49:47] what you're doing there making a huge difference. Yeah. That's, that's why I do it. Cause I want to
[00:49:52] bring people on like you that are passionate about a topic and really help that person share
[00:49:59] what they know in their world and in their insight with whatever topic it is. But like I said, next
[00:50:04] week's AI and I, I don't use AI as much as I probably could. And she asked me, she's like, are you doing
[00:50:10] this? Are you doing this? And I said, Nope. So there will be things that I'm sure I'll learn just
[00:50:15] like everybody else on the, on the show watching. So, um, but hope everyone has a great veterans day.
[00:50:21] If you are off work or if you're working, thanks for making this part of your day. And Paul, we'll
[00:50:27] talk to you real soon. Have a great rest of your day and, uh, take care. Thank you so much. Take care.
[00:50:33] Alrighty. See ya.
Sponsors
