I had the pleasure of speaking with Michael Towers, the owner of HR Avenger, about a powerful topic: leadership and the importance of silencing the lies that hold us back from becoming our best selves. Michael is deeply committed to empowering HR professionals to confront the often-overlooked mental health challenges within their organizations.
Get ready to be inspired and take actionable steps to improve not just your own well-being, but also that of those around you!
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[00:00:59] Hey, what's going on everybody? David Noe with SpeakEasy HR presented by Payroll Partners.
[00:01:05] It is November 4th, episode 13. Start of November, which I couldn't ask for a better guest,
[00:01:12] better topic to kick off this month of men's mental health awareness. So I've got live on LinkedIn and
[00:01:21] YouTube for people who are watching. We have it streaming so the chat is open if you want to
[00:01:27] comment where you're watching. Any questions along the way, please chime in. We love the engagement with
[00:01:33] our audience. So Michael Towers with HR Avenger. Welcome. How are you today, Michael?
[00:01:41] I'm wonderful. Thanks for having me, David.
[00:01:44] Yeah, absolutely. We've talked for a while. So when I first started thinking about topics to talk about
[00:01:52] and guests to bring into the show, you were on my list. And the entire time you said, yeah, when you're
[00:01:59] ready, I'm ready. So it's been, like I said, several months back to earlier this year when we first
[00:02:06] started interacting with messaging and just we got connected and I said, hey, here's my idea of a
[00:02:12] podcast. And you've got a lot of experience with speaking on some of these topics that are really
[00:02:18] near to your heart and you have some personal stories that you'll probably get into. But, you
[00:02:24] know, certainly happy to have you on finally. And like I said, couldn't could ask for a better guest
[00:02:29] to start this month off. So I've got a couple of things that I want to go through. First off, I have
[00:02:36] a really exciting announcement over the last week or so. I've been building out a website. So all of my
[00:02:43] previous previous episodes, I have a blog. I've got some clips from different episodes that I've had
[00:02:50] and also where to go into the podcast platforms to find previous episodes. So speakeasyhr.com is live.
[00:02:59] So please check it out. Any feedback, I would love to hear it if you are open to being a guest in the
[00:03:04] future. I am planning out next year into next summer. So I've got an amazing guest of lineup.
[00:03:11] I have amazing guests lined up between now and next summer already. But again, if you are interested
[00:03:17] in coming on and have a topic that you're passionate about, please check it out and connect with me. So
[00:03:24] again, the chat is open. And we are going to be doing the envelope icebreaker game, which had fun doing
[00:03:32] this. I gave you the questions, Michael, when we we first were interacting. So I want to invite you to
[00:03:40] introduce you a little bit with, you know, quickly what what you have been working on in the past. So
[00:03:46] you are a top rated SHRM presenter, mental health counselor, leadership speaker. You have
[00:03:56] teach the leadership principles, self care strategies to unleash, unleash potential personal
[00:04:03] potential. You flex with empathy muscles to help leaders reverse the deficit in their workplace by
[00:04:09] showing leaders how to create a healthy supportive culture. Employees engage positively impacting the
[00:04:14] bottom line. You are the go to source for employee engagement and retention. Your presentations are
[00:04:20] engaging, entertaining and vulnerability creates genuine connection. You seek to identify organizational
[00:04:27] challenges and teach practical solutions. You challenge audiences to take action and level up
[00:04:34] their organizations. So you are a mental health trainer and life coach. You have an incredible story of
[00:04:40] resiliency, perseverance and determination, which I cannot wait to get into. Because of your personal
[00:04:46] struggle, struggle with mental health illness, you are passionate about your stories to help everyone
[00:04:51] who wants to rewrite theirs. You are morally, ethically and occupationally obligated to take action and
[00:04:59] support hurting people. Unfortunately, many aren't trained to support their co-workers. So you train
[00:05:05] organizations on mental health first aid to support co-workers in crisis. So I wanted to just bring all of
[00:05:13] that up because I think it is super important. So Michael, if you just want to tell a little bit about
[00:05:18] yourself beyond what I just said, and then we'll get into some of the other things. So I will, I will hand
[00:05:25] it over to you, sir. All right, that's great. Yeah, I mean, you covered a lot of it. Of course,
[00:05:31] those are all the highlights. Though, you know, I have been in recovery for 25 years. I have been a mental
[00:05:43] health and addiction counselor for 22 years. You know, when I decided I wanted to be a speaker,
[00:05:48] and I spoke for years in the recovery space, many different organizations, venues, hurting people.
[00:05:55] But when I decided to try to pursue it as a mission, I started in colleges because it took me 17 years
[00:06:02] to graduate college. I earned my degrees after a lot of dropping out, a lot of failure. And I, when I got my
[00:06:09] diploma, I remember this accomplishment that I couldn't wait to help people accomplish what I just
[00:06:15] accomplished. So I think, you know, being a subject matter expert is important in the speaking,
[00:06:20] you know, world. And what I can tell you is, is that I've suffered with mental illness my whole life,
[00:06:25] one of three serious mental illnesses. And if you look at the statistics for people like me,
[00:06:30] the outlook is precarious at best. But I've gotten up every time that I've fallen down,
[00:06:35] and I continue to fight to be the best, most healthiest person that I can be. And as a result,
[00:06:41] I've accomplished things that I could never believe have accomplished. My life is beyond my wildest
[00:06:46] dreams. And for that, David, I'm a 100% expert. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's really incredible.
[00:06:53] And I did wear this shirt in my previous episode about mental health, but I did want to just wear it
[00:06:59] again because I think it's important. So if you can't read it is, everyone is fighting the battle you
[00:07:04] know nothing about. And this shirt actually is from a company that I found. It's I put it up on
[00:07:12] as a QR code. So it's Alex and Andy pet bandanas.com. They've got a line of different shirts,
[00:07:20] t shirt, sweatshirts, bandanas for pets. So this this daughter, uncle kind of collaboration team
[00:07:30] started making these shirts. So he makes all the easy handwrites these, these really impactful
[00:07:38] quotes on these shirts. So if you've never heard of them, I know they're very popular on TikTok.
[00:07:43] That's actually where I found their shirts. So anyway, just I wear this anytime mental health is
[00:07:48] talked about. So wanted to bring that up as as we got into this because it's again, mental health
[00:07:56] awareness for men is November. So like I said, great time to get into this topic. So all right,
[00:08:03] before we jump into your topic, Michael, I want to play the world famous envelope icebreaker game.
[00:08:19] So one through 15, you have the questions. If you have a number that you want to call out,
[00:08:26] I will open it up and see what we got. All right, let's go with number one.
[00:08:33] Number one. You're the you're the first person to pick number one.
[00:08:37] All right. Who is the greatest rapper of all time?
[00:08:42] We talked about this. I personally thought the questions that you were offering up were numbered.
[00:08:48] And this was an inside thing between you and I that I would pick the number and it would reveal
[00:08:52] the question. So that is not the question that I picked. But as I shared earlier in an email,
[00:08:57] it is Rakim from Eric B and Rakim, a rapper in the mid eighties, early nineties. He would be the best
[00:09:04] yeah, rapper, technical rapper of all time.
[00:09:07] Okay. Very good. You want to pick one more? Because there's a lot of questions in here. No one's
[00:09:12] no one's picked. You got another number you want to pick?
[00:09:15] Let's go since I have no idea. We'll go with seven.
[00:09:19] Seven. Seven. Yeah. At least give everyone the questions beforehand, but where they're at in the
[00:09:25] numbers. Okay. When you were in grade school, what did you want to be when you grew up?
[00:09:33] That's was number one on the list. And one of the questions I definitely wanted to answer, you know,
[00:09:37] it's funny. I speak, I've spoke the last four years presented to primarily HR professionals. And I
[00:09:43] talk about that time when we, you know, as an exercise did a test to try to discover what we
[00:09:49] would be good at, what our career choice could be. And, you know, as I spoke to HR professionals,
[00:09:54] I thought, you know, was anybody sitting there sophomore, junior year of high school going,
[00:09:58] you know, I want to be an HR professional. And, and honestly, if, if you were, because I know I saw
[00:10:03] the list of people listening, a lot of HR professionals, you probably were also an RA in college.
[00:10:08] Um, just fun killers, just always catch me at 2am trying to sneak back in the door. That was my idea
[00:10:14] of what HR was for the longest time, by the way, uh, hall police. Um, but I've fallen in love with HR
[00:10:21] pros since, um, I wanted to be an advocate for native Americans. Uh, bottom line, I, every movie that I
[00:10:27] watched, what I learned in school, I was a big, um, I'd say fan. Um, the civil rights movement really
[00:10:34] moved me because I just couldn't figure why, uh, the levels type of hatred and atrocity, uh, dictated
[00:10:41] by a, uh, uh, uh, culture or a color. And, um, and that's always kind of been my deal and, and, and,
[00:10:47] and, uh, uh, an advocate for native Americans. And I'll tell you my last year counseling in California
[00:10:51] in 2017, uh, I got a full-blooded Apache as a client. Um, he had done 15 years in San Quentin
[00:10:59] and he was as difficult as can be never trusted a male authority figure. And, uh, and I'm, I'm happy
[00:11:04] to say that I broke through, uh, in his time and treatment and, uh, and consider him, um, someone
[00:11:10] I'm really proud of. Wow. That's very interesting. Thanks for sharing that. You're welcome. Okay.
[00:11:16] Lightning round. What was your first job with taxes deducted out of your paycheck? Oh man. Good
[00:11:25] question. Um, I would say, uh, the first, I'll just make it fun and interesting. I spent, uh, 25 years,
[00:11:34] in the international alliance of theatrical stage employees, which is a union in the entertainment
[00:11:39] industry. And, uh, my first paid paycheck, uh, at 16 years old was working on the James Brown concert
[00:11:46] at Pier six concert pavilion. There you go. Very cool. Very cool. All right. So, um, again, for those who
[00:11:54] are chiming in and watching, it's a little after it's about two 15 Eastern time. So the chat is open
[00:12:02] on YouTube and LinkedIn. If you have a question for Michael, definitely put it in the chat because
[00:12:09] you might be thinking of the same question. Someone else is who are watching. So all previous episodes of
[00:12:17] Speakeasy HR will be on the website, speakeasyhr.com. There's new blog, past episodes and all kinds of
[00:12:24] clips. So be sure to tune into that. I've got a couple of quick questions for our audience who are
[00:12:32] involved in their payroll. Does your current payroll provider hog your time? Do you have a porky payroll
[00:12:41] process? If so, it's time to contact us at payroll partners to see how we can help you visit more,
[00:12:50] visit and learn more at payroll partners.net. So every year, Michael, we go to SHRM conferences,
[00:12:56] mostly state this year. We had the pig as a little, uh, giveaway last year we had a cow. So don't have a
[00:13:04] cow. So every year we have a fun animal. So those are just the most recent, but this was a hit,
[00:13:10] especially at Kentucky and Ohio SHRM. So if you were at one of those conferences and you stopped by our
[00:13:16] booth, hopefully you've got one. Um, all right. So for those who have not watched this show before,
[00:13:23] maybe you're new because you follow Michael and want to listen into his topic. This podcast that I started
[00:13:30] over the summer and all of the ideas that I had, I really wanted people to come on and bring topics
[00:13:35] that are super passionate to them in their work in what they do and how it's related to their
[00:13:41] upbringing, their previous career path, and all of the experiences they've had because everybody's
[00:13:48] perception and everyone's experiences are a little different. So, you know, your topic being something
[00:13:53] that you've always told me about since we first, you know, connected Michael was, was on mental health
[00:14:00] and, and really just finding a way to bring that out in somebody when they feel like there is no end in
[00:14:07] sight. So you brought up the limitless leadership, silencing the lies and BS. And so again, everybody
[00:14:15] that comes on this show will have a perception of, um, or, or, you know, really an understanding of,
[00:14:22] of why that topic means so much to them. So going through what you have talked about and going to
[00:14:29] SHRM conferences and everything, I'm sure along the way, every single one has been a little different,
[00:14:33] but you know, why, why did you bring this topic? Can you explain that a little bit? And we'll,
[00:14:39] we'll dive into it from there. Yeah. You know, the way my, um, mental health journey has evolved,
[00:14:46] you know, I was sentenced by a judge to psychiatry. Uh, I was looking at 33 years in jail and, uh, all of
[00:14:53] it, all of it was suspended, but I had to see a psychiatrist with bipolar and that judge, uh,
[00:14:58] had a roommate in college to gotten to a shootout with police outside their dorm. So needless to say,
[00:15:05] I, I, I ran in, uh, to the right judge and, you know, psychiatry was medication management. It was,
[00:15:13] you know, checking in around that with a psychiatrist, you know, as I look at some of
[00:15:17] the things that I've struggled with and an aim to be a better man, a better husband, a better person,
[00:15:21] you know, therapy is something that, uh, I've done a lot of therapy and it wasn't until it was right
[00:15:27] around 2019, the end of 2019, I was doing SHRM BLBM. I was doing it from the audio visual side.
[00:15:33] I was a project manager and I just got in an argument with a disgruntled coworker that was
[00:15:39] loud enough that, uh, SHRM attendees could hear it outside the office. And my supervisor came to me
[00:15:45] and he came down on me pretty hard and, and the opportunity I wanted to be perfect. And it went
[00:15:50] so well up to that moment and we're, you know, an hour away from the conference ending. And I had
[00:15:55] these messages going on that, you know, you, you screwed up, you know, you failed, you're nothing.
[00:16:01] You know, these are the message that I carried when I took a radio call to go help a SHRM presenter,
[00:16:06] uh, that was a keynote in another room. And when I met Mary Shetty, who's a division director for SHRM,
[00:16:12] um, my dad had fallen down the stairs three hours before and broke some ribs. I would lose
[00:16:18] him to addiction three weeks later. Mary's brother had died an hour before I met her. And I,
[00:16:25] you know, just kind of mentioned that I want to use my story, uh, to help people with mental illness.
[00:16:30] And she made a phone call. She's ready to do a keynote, right? She's not prepping. She made a
[00:16:35] phone call. And that person she called Felix Massey introduced me to Carrie, Kathy Harris,
[00:16:40] the director of SHRM speakers bureau. And within a month I was listed on speakers bureau,
[00:16:45] not because I was a corporate speaker, but because Mary Shetty wouldn't take no for an answer.
[00:16:49] And, you know, my love for HR, you know, started in that moment because I understood that HR does the
[00:16:58] most, they care the most. And most often they're overlooked the most and burnt out the most.
[00:17:04] And in helping HR professionals just have a true desire. When I say I was morally occupationally and,
[00:17:12] and, uh, um, obligated to help hurting people as a part of my job as a counselor,
[00:17:17] but HR professionals aren't obligated. Well, maybe obligated, but not occupation. It's not part of the,
[00:17:23] the SHRM, you know, bask or Bach or whatever it is now. And so a lot of, uh, people that desire to
[00:17:29] help people, but really didn't know how. And then in 2020, I went on a retreat and in that retreat,
[00:17:35] I went through a weekend and I didn't know where we were going. This retreat was like fight club.
[00:17:41] All the mentors didn't tell me what it was. I just showed up. And on Saturday evening, I confronted
[00:17:47] the wounds of my past, the wounds of my childhood, the wounds that caused the voices that are in my
[00:17:56] head that I'm not good enough. I'm worthy. I'm not deserving of success. Why try? You're going to
[00:18:01] fail anyway. And I confronted those bullies and pushed them out of my life forever. And the first two
[00:18:08] years of teaching leader leadership principles to help HR professionals and workplaces improve
[00:18:14] mental health conditions was kind of the, the way to become a corporate speaker. But in the last two
[00:18:20] years, it has been all about confronting the limiting beliefs that hold us back and to move into
[00:18:25] a possible mindset where anything is possible. And David, I did it out of an overflow of my love for HR
[00:18:31] professionals. And it's not as sexy as the talks the first two years, because when I watch people
[00:18:37] start to confront their trauma in real time, in my audiences, I could take a safer route,
[00:18:42] but I'm willing to take a risk to help the people and specifically HR professionals.
[00:18:48] Yeah. Wow. So that was one of my questions back to, cause you know, reading some of your bio on your,
[00:18:54] on your website, HR Avenger, I, I saw, and I'll, I'll pull this up. And if anybody is,
[00:19:01] is watching. So HR venture.com is, is where you have all of your speaking engagement topics,
[00:19:08] which you have a list of them, you have a workbook out there, you've got some amazing content
[00:19:12] that you're adding probably over time as you go. But, you know, looking at what you dealt with growing
[00:19:19] up, I mean, it, it didn't start like when you were in your twenties, it was back,
[00:19:23] it was back when you were young, young. And that was obviously at a different time in our,
[00:19:29] in our world. Now it's like, I'm sure there's more and more kids that are battling the same
[00:19:35] problems you did, but it wasn't as common maybe back then as you thought, you know, that you just
[00:19:41] didn't fit in. You had to go to a counselor, you had all of these, you know, things. And, and, and,
[00:19:48] you know, I, I had to go through some of that with my parents getting divorced and going to
[00:19:52] counseling. And so I have, you know, I have had that and, but now it's just, I feel like more
[00:19:59] people are talking about it. There's better conversations, they're better, there's better
[00:20:03] resources, but there's still a whole lot more that can be done. And you're just kind of scratching
[00:20:08] the surface with what really HR professionals can use as a, as a resource. So it's just, it's
[00:20:15] incredible that you have brought this all to light. And so, you know, I think what, what I want to
[00:20:21] find out from you and, and I'm sure there's some other folks out there that might be watching
[00:20:26] that have these questions, but you know, when myself, anybody in an HR role and, and they are
[00:20:34] trying to find the right path to supporting their team members with mental health without knowing what
[00:20:40] everybody's battling, like my shirt says, everyone's fighting a battle, you know, nothing about.
[00:20:46] And, and so you, Michael might be working at my company and I might know nothing about what you
[00:20:52] have going on. So how, how can you kind of tell HR professionals that really want to focus on this
[00:20:58] as a priority within their organization? You know, what are some of the first steps that they can
[00:21:04] really take, um, you know, to really make it a focus and try to find the best way to approach it
[00:21:09] and make an impact within their organization? All right. That great, great question. And,
[00:21:16] and I'm just going to push back a bit. I want to answer your question the way you asked it, but
[00:21:21] you know, this, this transition into a new type of presentations, uh, is, is after realizing that so
[00:21:28] many HR professionals are tasked with the job to raise morale or do something with mental health.
[00:21:34] Like, you know, we've got this, these issues and people hurting and leadership, you know, puts it
[00:21:39] on HR to plan something and then leadership doesn't show up and leadership buy-in is a thing. And
[00:21:44] again, my, my love for HR now, um, it's, it's about putting you on a pathway to eradicate the fear,
[00:21:52] doubt, and shame that's holding you back and to teach you steps, uh, so that you can be the,
[00:21:57] the, you're the best, most healthiest person. Right. And so that's number one, right. Uh, again,
[00:22:04] you all do the most, you all have private lives and plenty of things to do. We only have so much time,
[00:22:12] but great leadership in means leading yourself greatly. Self-care is vital yet. We, uh, sacrifice
[00:22:21] it constantly for other things. And those things end up, uh, paying the price, right. By us not taking
[00:22:30] care of ourselves. So I can certainly talk about, you know, identifying hurting people by keeping your
[00:22:36] head up and paying attention to those around you so that you can identify who's hurting. You can
[00:22:42] intervene. I can teach you motivational interviewing skills and, and, and in ways that you can, um,
[00:22:48] act out of them to, to show that people are heard and valued, which is really all anybody wants across
[00:22:54] the spectrum. Um, but only one in four people have a, not only one in four people have a serious or not
[00:23:00] a serious, but let's say one in four people have a diagnosable mental health condition, but four out
[00:23:06] of four of us have mental health and we have got to all be mindful of the impact stress, unhealthy
[00:23:12] relationships, past trauma, negative experiences in our environment has on our mental health. So we've got
[00:23:18] great leadership as an inside out job. And, and yes, I can teach you how to go on to work and do the
[00:23:24] deal, but are you living, um, in a way that's, uh, are you caring for yourself mentally, physically,
[00:23:32] and spiritually? Yeah. One of our viewers on LinkedIn, Lucy, uh, Ellis, she said, I'm a work-related
[00:23:42] PTSD survivor. Do you ever see that in the workplace?
[00:23:46] I think all of us have trauma. Yeah. All of us now, as far as, um, you know, utilizing that
[00:23:53] in the workplace, I mean, so often we're told to take our problems and stuff them down and show up
[00:23:58] on the job, um, and be okay. That first of all, that paradigm has got to be blown up. The more we
[00:24:04] speak up and come around, rally around each other. Um, and I, I, I challenge leaders to do this, to speak
[00:24:10] up about the things that they struggle with the, the kind of the me too. Oh, you struggle with that?
[00:24:14] Me too. And so much can be built from that. But listen, um, my dad drove my sister and I around
[00:24:20] drunk all the time. We knew what kind of day it would be if he ended up at the liquor store at
[00:24:24] 6am and put a bottle of gin underneath his seat. And he wrecked the car with my sister in it.
[00:24:29] Fortunately, her screaming had him, uh, correct the car in time to just side swipe the telephone pole.
[00:24:35] I remember my dad waking up the next morning with windshield glass in his shoes. And the first
[00:24:39] thing he thought was, how can I get myself out of this and not my sister? Um, I would have, um, uh,
[00:24:46] discounted trauma like to those relegated to serious, like military experiences or, or things like that.
[00:24:53] And, and when I met my wife who is an army veteran and I'd watch her, uh, jump out of her seat. If I
[00:24:58] dropped a fork, trauma is real that my dad driving me around drunk was traumatic and we need to own that
[00:25:04] trauma. Um, and again, uh, for that person, would you say her name was? Uh, Lucy, Lucy, find ways to
[00:25:11] speak up about your trauma. There's, there's oversharing as a counselor. I don't overshare,
[00:25:15] but I can certainly say some things have happened to me when I was younger and they've affected me in
[00:25:20] this way. And, um, you know, if there's anything that you have that you want to talk about, I'm here
[00:25:24] if you ever want to talk, that's how you change workplaces. Yeah. Yeah. And I think a lot of people
[00:25:30] in HR, depending on their capacity, they might be viewed as more of a support role, you know,
[00:25:37] dealing with whatever it might be from an employee standpoint, having those conversations,
[00:25:43] difficult conversations and trying to help managers navigate through that. And so, you know,
[00:25:49] it just depends on the HR role that that individual has within the organization, because
[00:25:53] they might have an EAP program. I think those are underutilized. They've been offered
[00:25:58] 7 out of 10 people. I'm sorry, 7% of people, uh, end up using their EAP when the resources are so good.
[00:26:07] Yeah. Yeah. So I think those are evolving or kind of becoming something of the past,
[00:26:14] you know? So I think what, what you are doing is really like the next version of what an EAP program
[00:26:22] is supposed to be doing, but it's drilling down what each organization needs and finding the tools
[00:26:28] that are going to help them because every individual, every organization is different. But
[00:26:33] like I said, everybody's fighting battles that you know nothing about and you expect someone to show up
[00:26:39] and be a hundred percent, you know, they might be going through a divorce. They might have something
[00:26:43] going on with their kids, their spouse, financial problems, everything else going on in the world.
[00:26:48] And then you expect them to come to work and be a hundred percent every day, all the time. And it
[00:26:53] fortunately just doesn't work that way. So, um, she looks like Lucy, I did speak to HR and I was
[00:27:01] suspended at work after they denied my ADA. So that was, uh, you know, I, I came up with the HR
[00:27:09] Avenger David because I'm making this speaking, you know, as a business thing up and, and again,
[00:27:15] back to wanting to empower HR professionals, right. By conquering their limiting beliefs,
[00:27:22] you know, superheroes don't, uh, become superheroes by giving in the limiting beliefs. Um, and, and
[00:27:28] they just take action and wanting that HR Avenger, you know, was what I came up with again, making it up.
[00:27:35] But when I hear getting suspended around an ADA, ADA and PTSD, I just want the address and the name of
[00:27:44] your supervisor. Um, but that was my old life, but, uh, that's, that's how I feel. That's how I feel. Uh,
[00:27:50] yeah. So you talked about that Saturday where it really, you, you conquered, uh, voices in your head
[00:27:59] and you conquered things that you might not have ever been able to overcome. So was that really the
[00:28:05] turning point that you were able to, to, to find that motivation and strength to change your life?
[00:28:11] Or was there a combination of, of life events that really led up to that? Like, how did you get to that
[00:28:17] point where you just felt like, all right, you know, I'm, I'm going to use this for good and I'm
[00:28:22] going to help other people and other organizations and people in HR. Yeah, that's a great question. The,
[00:28:27] um, the getting sentenced to psychiatry was 2006. Right. And so I'd been on a journey, um, and
[00:28:34] understanding how exercise and what I ate and the meds that I took, the meds that I don't take
[00:28:42] or things I don't put in my body therapy, like all those things I grooved. Um, and then it was, uh,
[00:28:49] it was summer of, uh, 2019. I was at a men's retreat for my church and a pastor and my best friend
[00:28:56] shared that his father's anger, um, had affected him. Right. And it showed up in his life in, in later
[00:29:04] years and how, um, basically his dad taught him, um, to love God, um, was a great father and he had
[00:29:15] tears streaming down his face and he said, and then I went to crucible and, and you can, uh, share, uh,
[00:29:22] the crucible project.org. Um, what I would say about it is it is Christian, although you don't have to be
[00:29:28] Christian to go to these retreats and there's many retreats like it. So I'm just sharing what he
[00:29:33] introduced me to, but I signed up a half hour later because it sounded like he had a stop, a lot of
[00:29:37] stuff. Yeah. And then he went to this place and reconciled the stuff and it lives out of that power.
[00:29:42] And January, I went to Colorado and, and what happened for me, um, as I regressed with what my
[00:29:48] current problem was to finding out what the, uh, now I did not regress to my father's alcoholism,
[00:29:54] which certainly his drinking and the decisions that he made communicated to me that I didn't matter,
[00:29:59] that alcohol mattered more than me. Right. I didn't go there because my dad had died three weeks before
[00:30:04] that. And I, and I was good with my dad on that Saturday, but you know, what did do it? The bullies,
[00:30:11] the bullies that called me a loser, four eyes, geek dork, uh, that, that called me crazy because
[00:30:17] I had to see a, uh, a nurse in middle school to get my medication. Um, those bullies, um, were the
[00:30:25] messaging that programmed me for the rest of my life. And I, I confronted those bullies. So that was 2020.
[00:30:33] And what I can say is it took me about two years to really move into this next phase of speaking,
[00:30:38] which is how to conquer those beliefs and then adapt a positive, positive, a possible mindset.
[00:30:45] But I was reluctant David, because it, it, I'm very careful around toxic positivity being in the
[00:30:52] entertainment and commerce industry for 30 years. I've seen hundreds and hundreds of speakers
[00:30:57] and we are struggling with real stuff. Right. So to go from not even recognizing that to someone in
[00:31:04] the audience, you can climb any mountain and achieve, you know, any aspiration or goal and
[00:31:10] live a life beyond your wildest dreams. I feel like is irresponsible when somebody can't get out of bed
[00:31:16] every day. So it's been, I've been reluctant to move into this, but I care about you all so much
[00:31:22] that I've just got to, got to. Yeah. It's, and, and my, my three word slogan to this whole thing is
[00:31:32] listen, share, inspire. So really what I have wanted to do with, with all of this is to bring
[00:31:39] folks on like yourself and listen to their stories because you have some really impactful personal
[00:31:45] stories that you have shared just like others and, and really share those experiences to help people
[00:31:51] that might be facing the same similar stuff and really help them be inspired and be a better person.
[00:31:56] So, you know, you brought up, um, you know, your father and people that are watching that are
[00:32:01] fathers, you know, it's kind of like you have a responsibility in your, in your role at, at your
[00:32:06] job. That's, you know, maybe an HR role. You are inspiring other people to be a better version
[00:32:12] at your company. Potentially you're trying to help them in their career, make them a better version of
[00:32:17] themselves. But then if you are a father of, of children, you know, growing up now with social
[00:32:23] media is just a completely different situation than you and I growing up with social media. Cause I mean,
[00:32:30] I didn't grow up with social media. It wasn't really a thing until I was an adult. Most,
[00:32:35] you know, so that just imagine what you dealt with if you were some in some capacity on, on some social
[00:32:44] media that, you know, is really the main reason why, why kids are battling so much in, in the mental
[00:32:51] health space and suicide, because a lot of it is how they are perceived from other people in,
[00:32:58] in their day-to-day lives at school or whatever. And, you know, a lot of that goes back to some social
[00:33:03] media that, that we didn't have growing up. Um, so anyway, I, I just wanted to bring that up because
[00:33:10] fathers that are watching, you know, obviously this, this, this month being men's mental, uh,
[00:33:17] you know, uh, you know, mental awareness month. It's, it's so important and, and finding the right
[00:33:24] resources, finding the right advice, the right help. So, you know, what, what advice would you
[00:33:30] give someone who is struggling or, or if someone watching does know somebody that is struggling,
[00:33:37] you know, what, what could you share with them as like a, a first step to either getting help
[00:33:42] or, you know, finding the right help for someone that they know, their loved one, their friends.
[00:33:48] Um, is there, is there kind of some advice that you would give those kinds of folks watching?
[00:33:53] Yeah. I, uh, I want to, um, at least acknowledge that it's not, um, easy, uh, to reach out for help.
[00:34:05] Um, stigma is real. The, the, uh, idea that will be judged. It might even affect our job.
[00:34:11] So that, that makes it tough. Um, I was sentenced to psychiatry, but I knew I had serious mental
[00:34:19] illness, uh, in 2001 and the issues that it caused up until 2006 are profound and, um, you know,
[00:34:28] barriers to treatment. I mean, I was unemployable. I mean, I worked here and there, but, you know,
[00:34:33] with bipolar, untreated bipolar, I mean, I got fired a lot of times. I didn't make it to 90 days,
[00:34:37] uh, to get health insurance. And so I just, I, I, unemployable, I can't afford to pay for
[00:34:42] market, uh, meds out of pocket. Um, but you know, I was in recovery and I think, you know,
[00:34:48] some of the things I learned there is, is we find someone, um, who, who is healthy, who lives the life
[00:34:55] that we want to live and see if you can't get that person as a mentor. Uh, again, it's not easy to go ask
[00:35:01] somebody to be your mentor to be, you know, to be that for you. Uh, but I think at the end of the
[00:35:06] day, us speaking up to someone, that's the thing about EAPs. I mean, a lot of them nowadays have,
[00:35:12] uh, video visits to that. You don't have to leave the house, right? You can set up a video visit or,
[00:35:18] you know, bare minimum is do an assessment online when it comes to mental illness to see what that,
[00:35:22] where that assessment, I'm not telling you to be the person. If you're on here, I apologize. I'm
[00:35:27] making fun of you just a little bit. That person that gets on doc MD and diagnosis them,
[00:35:31] themselves, but just an assessment to kind of find out where you're at on a burnout scale
[00:35:35] or depression and then take action. We got to speak up. We got to take action. And when it comes
[00:35:42] to people that we see that are hurting, we have to be brave and courageous. Um, I don't think, um,
[00:35:48] it's, uh, normal or, or common when you reach out to someone that you don't know that well and say,
[00:35:54] Hey, um, I just wanted to see if there's any way that I can, you know, help you or anything that
[00:36:00] you'd like to share, um, where it went badly. It went poorly and there's lives out there to save.
[00:36:06] And I'm not being dramatic about that. Right. Oops. So, um, you have traveled over the last few
[00:36:14] years. You've done, you've done a lot of SHRM conferences. Have there been any conferences
[00:36:19] where you went to speak that kind of stands out to you, whether it's somebody that came up and
[00:36:25] approached you after it and just really moved you and just, they either thanked you, they shared
[00:36:31] their stories or one that comes to mind with your traveling? Yeah. Yeah. And I'll tell you,
[00:36:37] you know, I've, I've been at SHRM conferences. Uh, I, I don't know. I could, I'm not gonna say I
[00:36:41] count on one hand, but, uh, of the conferences I've been at for 30 years, it's rare to get a standing
[00:36:48] ovation, you know? And, and a lot of times with the mental health speakers, they're a big time
[00:36:52] politician, entertainer, or they, you know, climbed a mountain or they did something, you know, super
[00:36:57] special. Um, I spoke to twin city SHRM and got a standing ovation, um, simply for sharing my story.
[00:37:06] Um, most importantly, sharing the, what I learned from my story and, um, was able to pass on, but it
[00:37:12] is always David. Uh, I spoke to an insurance company in Virginia and when the room cleared out,
[00:37:17] and since I'm not a professional, well, I I'm a, I've been, I'm compensated to speak, but it's not
[00:37:22] a full-time endeavor quite yet. Um, so I'm like setting my camera up, tearing my camera down. I'm
[00:37:27] like the AV guy in the speaker, um, where a man would stay till the room cleared out and would sit
[00:37:32] in the front row and tell me that he had bipolar disorder. I mean, those are the victories. Honestly,
[00:37:38] I'm not, not being, um, you know, uh, self-righteous when I say those really are the moments I didn't get
[00:37:44] into speaking to, to get paid. Um, but one of the, uh, most common recent ones, which meant the most
[00:37:51] was I was speaking for the state council for Indiana SHRM. And I was talking about this particular
[00:37:57] topic. And if I got into some of the questions that I asked that audience, um, they're only going to
[00:38:02] hear that a therapist's office. Um, they certainly are not going to hear that in a keynote presentation,
[00:38:06] but I took the risk and I asked some questions and she shared with me through the HOVA app,
[00:38:11] which is a conference app. I was the one in the front row bawling her eyes out that your message
[00:38:17] was the message that I was supposed to hear today. Um, I, I followed up with her and navigated her
[00:38:22] steps a bit because if she was crying her eyes out in that talk, it meant she had experienced some
[00:38:29] serious trauma that was holding her back. Um, so that, that was definitely number one.
[00:38:36] Yeah. And it's, I think for someone to have a situation, whether it's considered trauma or not,
[00:38:45] but people that have gone through the workplace landscape for the last four or five years,
[00:38:50] it's just, it's really changed and it's going to continue to change and evolve. And so people have
[00:38:57] had to adjust, like my board says, champions adjust it's, it's, you know, finding each person that
[00:39:06] sits and listens to your, uh, speaking, uh, topics. And I would assume most of them have had something
[00:39:16] go on in their lives over the last four or five years that, that really hit them when you are
[00:39:21] speaking on some of these topics. And so I think for men having the, the, the willpower to speak up and,
[00:39:29] and find the right help is very difficult for a lot of men. And so not that it's not, you know,
[00:39:37] hard for women either, but I, I think just the, and I don't know the right statistic from men versus
[00:39:42] women with seeking help, you know, you might have some of those, those statistics, but I would assume
[00:39:47] it's, it's maybe higher for women. I don't know. Is that, is that true for getting help? Yeah. Yep.
[00:39:54] And, and, and, and you think about males across all cultures, you know, um, uh, black communities,
[00:40:01] Hispanic communities. I mean, these, these are men that have got to be tough and fight through it.
[00:40:06] Um, you know, one of my favorite movies is central intelligence with the rock and, uh, Kevin Hart.
[00:40:10] Uh, it's a, it's a, um, anti-bullying messaging, but, uh, uh, the rock mentions, uh, therapy for Kevin
[00:40:17] Hart. And he goes, no, we go to barbershops. We don't, or we watch barbershop. So just an idea of,
[00:40:23] you know, stigma being baked into this movie, but, um, yeah, men for sure.
[00:40:27] Yeah. And I think like you talked about nutrition, you talked about stress management and depression,
[00:40:36] anxiety. I think the more and more that this conversation and this topics talked about,
[00:40:42] I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm hopeful. And I would say you are too, that there are going to be more people that,
[00:40:48] that offer this kind of service and what you do and help individuals and organizations because everyone,
[00:40:57] uh, doesn't have a personal trainer. Everyone doesn't have a personal nutritionist, um, therapist,
[00:41:04] and, and all of those things are really important. And some people do take it serious and think that,
[00:41:10] yeah, my mental health, my physical health and what I put in my body, what foods I eat and,
[00:41:16] you know, everything is so important from an overall health perspective. It's not like you can
[00:41:21] go to a therapist and over whatever, you know, period of time, everything's going to be perfect.
[00:41:29] It's how to navigate through where, where there's really some room for improvement to make yourself
[00:41:35] a better version, whether it's what a therapist can do somebody that if you want to lose weight and you
[00:41:42] want to be more confident in how you look your, your image, if you're 200 pounds overweight,
[00:41:48] obviously a therapist isn't going to probably help you with that. So I'm hopeful that there are more
[00:41:53] people that are going to see this as a need because it's just, I think going to be, it's going to
[00:41:59] become a more and more important topic, especially for organizations to focus on when someone's like,
[00:42:06] Oh, we offer an EAP program. That's great. But like you said, it's not utilized. It's something
[00:42:11] that just kind of checks the box and it's not really going to do a whole lot. And so having resources
[00:42:19] like you for organizations, I think will be super, super important. So, um, what future speaking
[00:42:27] engagements do you have in case people are watching that they can potentially see, see you in action
[00:42:34] live? Yeah, that's great. Thank you for asking that. I do want to, um, offer some value around what
[00:42:38] you were just saying. Um, you know, I read a lot, a lot. That's probably one of the biggest things I've
[00:42:46] done since the beginning of 2022 is read at least 10 pages of a professional personal development
[00:42:51] book a day. So I've read some amazing books. Um, when I was in California for two years, 2015 to 2017,
[00:42:58] uh, for a bit of time, I was a personal trainer certified, uh, for Equinox gym. And one of the
[00:43:04] things they suggested was finding out whatever your, uh, wheelhouse was and then presenting on that
[00:43:08] particular thing. And I had been a power lifter. I'd played college football, but, uh, exercise for
[00:43:13] mental health was what it was. And look, the benefits just for 20 minutes of moderate exercise
[00:43:18] are profound, right? Um, regulates our, our sleep helps us get deeper and better sleep, uh, regulates
[00:43:25] cortisol and, um, and that's the stress hormone, uh, leads to, you know, the dopamine reward system
[00:43:32] and endorphins, which is the natural painkiller and happy chemicals. Um, we all know what we need to do,
[00:43:38] right. But we're more burnt out than ever and unhealthier than ever. And recently I read two books,
[00:43:43] the mind diet, and this is your brain on food. And, uh, I just brain fog and memory and energy
[00:43:49] levels. And I'm like, you know, am I getting older? I mean, what is this? How can I improve this? And
[00:43:54] here's the deal. Two books, 600 and some pages in two days. Um, it's the same 25 foods y'all.
[00:44:02] It's the same foods, berries, nuts, olive oil, omega threes. I cannot, uh, overstate how important
[00:44:12] it is to eat right. And then with exercise, I mean, who wants to do it? Nobody got time for that.
[00:44:17] Right. But we'll watch every episode of Yellowstone in a weekend or game of throws,
[00:44:22] but we won't take time to exercise. So you, you hit on it, confidence, self-esteem, right? I just
[00:44:30] wanted to start exercising, um, uh, earlier this year consistently. I had read atomic habits a year
[00:44:37] and a half before that, right? To be disciplined, you have to be disciplined. It's so annoying. Um,
[00:44:43] inspiration and motivation become after, come after action, right? So I've got to take action,
[00:44:49] right? So I start by putting my shoes out the night before, right? I go to the gym for two minutes,
[00:44:54] even though I don't feel like it. And then maybe the next time it's for three or four,
[00:44:57] I do things that, uh, I like to do like swimming or shooting basketball on the basketball,
[00:45:03] uh, court, right? We take these small steps and what happens is we get healthy. You want to talk
[00:45:09] about obesity rates and things like that, but all of them tie into the type of parent we are,
[00:45:15] right? When we take care of ourselves, it's net positive for everyone. And it starts with exercise
[00:45:21] and it starts with eating right. And then the last thing, um, you had said, you had said therapy might
[00:45:27] not help around the physical part, but the reality of it is there are so many people of us
[00:45:32] that, that have these limiting beliefs, these childhood wounds as trauma. And, and we say,
[00:45:37] we're not even worth the self-care that we need, or we give up before we try. Cause we're going to
[00:45:42] fail anyway. I think it all matters, but the least we can do is, is clean out the fridge,
[00:45:48] put in the healthier foods. Let me tell you, Greek yogurt, berries, some walnuts and a little bit of
[00:45:54] honey, some chia seeds is better. Uh, tastes better for me now than ice cream. And it's so much more
[00:46:02] productive for us. So it's funny you say that I just went through a two week flush and, uh, my gut
[00:46:09] health is way better. Uh, and so I now know what chia seeds are and having these shakes and being on a
[00:46:18] strict diet, a strict meal plan for two weeks. It's incredible. It's it's, I've never done it.
[00:46:25] I, my wife, that's some of her work is in the, in, uh, you know, supplements training. So I got
[00:46:33] connected to one of her health coaches and she put me on a plan and I was like, all right, let's see
[00:46:38] what we can do. Drink two gallons of water a day. And it just, it is amazing. So if anyone hasn't done
[00:46:45] a two week flush something, you know, find somebody that you feel like can help you down that path.
[00:46:51] And just from a nutrition standpoint, like you said, it's, it's incredible what some of those
[00:46:55] little things can do and people that crave sugar, those kinds of things, just it's, it's well worth
[00:47:02] finding something that you can improve. I did want to bring this up because you probably spoke a little
[00:47:07] bit about it, Michael, but this 30 day, 35 day challenge, I'm going to scan this because I want to
[00:47:14] bring it up myself. So anybody that is watching, I would bring this up and go through this workbook
[00:47:22] that Michael has put onto his website, because this is a 35 day self-care challenge. So it's
[00:47:29] November 4th. You start this, uh, and you could be right before the holidays, just in a much better,
[00:47:35] much better place. So it's journaling three things you are grateful for each day.
[00:47:42] Do 90 seconds of box breathing per day, which I what's, what's, what's box breathing.
[00:47:49] So I learned about it, uh, through the Navy SEALs who use it in battle to deescalate the anxiety that
[00:47:55] they have currently. You're going to breathe in and you're going to, you're going to breathe in.
[00:47:58] So you expand that rib cage and you're going to breathe in through your nose as much air as you
[00:48:02] can for a count of four. You're going to hold at the top for four. And then you're going to breathe
[00:48:07] out of your mouth, all of that air for a count of four. And you're going to hold it a count of four
[00:48:11] and listen to a man or woman on this podcast. I promise you, you do it and you will instantly feel
[00:48:20] better instantly. So you do that for 90 seconds. Yeah. Read 10 pages of a book per day, professional
[00:48:29] or personal love it. Do 20 minutes of moderate exercise each day. Obviously 10,000 steps a day
[00:48:36] is what people say is great. Drink 10, eight ounce glasses of water per day, which I try to stay up
[00:48:43] on that and make or maintain one healthy dietary adjustment each day. So there you go.
[00:48:50] And to, um, to, to, you had asked a question earlier about, you know, what can someone do to get
[00:48:55] started? And, uh, and the, the truth is, is we got to take contrary actions. You know, a lot of the
[00:49:00] things that we don't want to do, especially in the recovery space, when I'm dealing with a, with an,
[00:49:04] with an addict, new client is whatever it is you don't want to do. You've got to do, you got to go
[00:49:09] to that meeting. You got to talk to the sponsor. You got to, you got to work a step, you know, you just
[00:49:13] have to take contrary actions. And, um, and, and the why, I mean, we got to win the day. So pick a
[00:49:19] habit, pick a goal, any habit, any goal, right. And come up with some incremental steps and it doesn't
[00:49:24] have to be to clown climb a mountain. Maybe it's just to lose 25 pounds. Right. Um, and, and whatever
[00:49:30] that is, you break it down into small steps. If you want to read a professional personal
[00:49:34] development book, you start with atomic habits, in my opinion, and, um, and then make one day to day,
[00:49:40] right. Get off this podcast and say, today's going to be the day I'm going to make today today. And then
[00:49:45] you take small steps, you be consistent and you win every day. What was the book you said? Atomic
[00:49:50] Atomic habits, top 50 lists. Every list you look at, you're going to find atomic habits,
[00:49:56] atomic habits. It's great. So for those who scan that 35 day challenge workbook,
[00:50:03] highly suggest looking at that. You can look at everything that Michael is living and breathing
[00:50:09] every day in his work and, and passion at hravenger.com. Amazing content. Some of the
[00:50:15] programs that you are focusing on is an exceptional leader cares, identify inquire and intervene
[00:50:23] extreme mental health makeover and leadership re-imagined were some of them that you have on
[00:50:28] your, on your website. So I'm, uh, currently right now building out, uh, identifying choir
[00:50:34] intervene for an HR education network, uh, HREN, and, um, there'll be a booklet with it and everything.
[00:50:41] Um, I'm teaching it to 300, um, people from the Gulf coast community services association who deal with
[00:50:48] impoverished communities and really tough cases. So I'm doing that. And, uh, and I do appreciate
[00:50:54] you asking when I'm speaking again. Um, and honestly, I'll share this and never use this platform as a,
[00:50:59] as a sales opportunity, but you know, uh, you probably are familiar with, um, maybe not Heystack ID,
[00:51:05] but they're a company that, uh, uh, uh, a guy I played rugby with works for a company like yours,
[00:51:11] David. And, uh, he introduced me to, uh, an HR professional with, uh, Heystack ID global company.
[00:51:17] And they wanted me to do a monthly, uh, mental health, uh, thing. And I was given license about
[00:51:22] what I created and I created a really good lesson plan and takeaways in the works, right? Much like a,
[00:51:26] a presentation. And I don't know, uh, when I logged in that morning, it was on my heart to, uh,
[00:51:32] and you can look on my website, uh, sashay emotions, sad, angry, scared, happy, excited,
[00:51:38] tender. I decided to lead off with a little bit about my story and why it's why the stuff is
[00:51:42] important and to get everybody to check in around how they feel. And I cannot tell you the, uh,
[00:51:48] response and feedback. Like, first of all, they were sharing things where I was like, ah, I don't,
[00:51:52] I don't even know if I would share that, right. Just they don't know each other and this big
[00:51:57] corporate company, but then the feedback from everybody else about the bravery and the courage
[00:52:02] and I could, and all I did was facilitate a discussion, much like I've facilitated many
[00:52:09] addiction groups in my career. And now I do that. I'll, I'll model that and get organizations
[00:52:15] started on that so that they can have these types of meetings where people can speak up
[00:52:20] about what they're going through. Wow. Yeah, it's incredible. I'm, I'm a huge proponent in
[00:52:28] all of this work that you're doing. So I, I really appreciate your time, Michael. And I think
[00:52:34] there's a whole lot to be done. So just hopefully in the future we can reconnect and find other ways
[00:52:41] to, uh, to just really get your message out there. So do you have any, any SHRM conferences
[00:52:48] that you'll be going to over the next few months? Well, I'm regular at, um, SHRM Baldwin County,
[00:52:54] which is awesome in Alabama, but I've applied to, uh, you just call us for presentations to SHRM,
[00:53:00] Virginia. And by doing that, I've been pretty successful getting, getting SHRM opportunities,
[00:53:05] but right now I have none in the spring. So, um, yeah, but that's, that's kind of what I'm doing
[00:53:11] now is, is canvassing the industry, looking for opportunities to speak.
[00:53:15] Awesome. Well, good. Is there anything you'd like to add before we wrap up here? Any final comments or
[00:53:23] just, yeah, just, um, you know, do what you can to, um, to get through the trauma, uh, your past,
[00:53:31] bury, bury dead yesterdays, you know, give your past a eulogy, um, and, and, and, and step into this
[00:53:39] moment right now. And when I said, make one day to day, identify that habit, identify that goal. Um,
[00:53:46] take a look at how that would show up in your life with your loved ones and work and all of that. And,
[00:53:50] you know, when I decided to, uh, um, get myself together consistently, it was leading up to my
[00:53:56] talk with the Gulf Coast community association. I did a keynote and a presentation in July.
[00:54:00] And I, and, and though I'm not typically extremely motivated, I knew that they mattered 300 burnt
[00:54:07] out people dealing with the worst cases. The least I could do was go for a walk in the morning, um,
[00:54:12] throw some weights around in the evening and eat strawberries and walnuts to step on that stage
[00:54:17] authentically. Um, and, and I want you all to do the same thing. What is your, why, who can you help
[00:54:22] and what do you need to do to do that? Yeah, absolutely. And next Monday, my topic is about
[00:54:28] burnout with my guests. So I'll be there now. Burnout is the next topic in this, in this month.
[00:54:34] So, uh, Michael, thanks again for coming on. I really appreciate your time and insights and
[00:54:39] sharing your stories that are very personal and, and things that, that you have gone through over your,
[00:54:45] uh, career and your childhood. And I think it's just amazing what you're doing. We need more people
[00:54:50] like you and, uh, just keep fighting the good fight, my friend. So hopefully, uh, you have a
[00:54:56] great rest of your day, have a great month and, uh, hopefully we'll talk real soon. And thanks
[00:55:01] everybody for tuning in. Like I said, you can visit Michael's website, HR venture.com, get all his
[00:55:08] content and everything that he is focusing on right now. So, all right, Michael. Well, thanks again.
[00:55:14] And we'll, uh, talk to you real soon and thanks everybody for tuning in and we'll talk to everyone
[00:55:19] real soon. Awesome. Thank you very much. Thank you.
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