Transforming HR from the Inside Out: Neil Lenane’s Journey at Progressive

[00:00:00] Alright, I want to talk to you for a moment about retaining and developing your workforce.

[00:00:05] It's hard. Recruiting is hard. Retaining top employees is hard.

[00:00:09] Then you've got onboarding, payroll, benefits, time and labor management.

[00:00:13] You need to take care of your workforce and you can only do this successfully if you commit to transforming your employee experience.

[00:00:21] This is where ISOF comes in. They empower you to be successful.

[00:00:25] We've seen it with a number of companies that we've worked with.

[00:00:28] And this is why we partner with them here at WorkDefined.

[00:00:32] We trust them and you should too. Check them out at isolvedhcm.com

[00:00:49] This is William Tidcup and Ryan Leary and you're listening, hopefully watching, the Practitioner Corner.

[00:00:54] We've got Neil on today and we're going to learn all about his career.

[00:00:58] So we're excited to have him on the show.

[00:01:00] Neil, would you do us a favor, the audience a favor and introduce yourself?

[00:01:04] Neil, I lead our talent acquisition group at Progressive Insurance Company.

[00:01:11] All right. So how long have you been in TA?

[00:01:15] Ish.

[00:01:16] TA specifically eight years.

[00:01:19] Okay.

[00:01:21] HR, I'm probably celebrating my 24th, 25th year and been in the insurance industry 37 years.

[00:01:29] Oh my goodness.

[00:01:30] So you got good in talent in insurance and you just stayed there.

[00:01:37] Outside of college, joined the insurance industry and been with it ever since.

[00:01:41] It's a great industry.

[00:01:43] It's super stable.

[00:01:44] And when you think about careers and skill sets, insurance companies offer a lot of those.

[00:01:50] It's more than just, you know, hey, a claim or, you know, being a product manager and selling a policy, but all kinds of roles there.

[00:01:58] But yeah, I've been 37 years with two different companies.

[00:02:01] And like I said, I have enjoyed being in the insurance industry.

[00:02:06] Two things you don't often hear, Neil, is 37 years for two companies.

[00:02:12] Number one.

[00:02:13] Yeah.

[00:02:14] Yeah.

[00:02:14] That's an accomplishment there.

[00:02:16] And then being in HR, right, right, you know, through the thick and thin of it that long.

[00:02:21] So we've got a lot to learn.

[00:02:23] I'm excited for today.

[00:02:25] Appreciate you having me.

[00:02:26] Insurance, highly regulated industry.

[00:02:30] And then you got HR with that as well.

[00:02:33] Yeah.

[00:02:33] So why don't we go back?

[00:02:35] We'll get back to progressive, of course, but why don't we go back to high school, college?

[00:02:41] Sure.

[00:02:41] What was the dream?

[00:02:42] What did you want to be?

[00:02:44] Well, I wouldn't have said, we wouldn't have had said be an insurance, right?

[00:02:48] You know, so we always like to say like, hey, I didn't grow up to say, hey, I wanted to be a claim rep.

[00:02:52] But somewhere along the line, that's what I ended up doing, you know, coming out of the University of Georgia.

[00:02:58] So I was a New York City kid.

[00:03:01] I transferred to Atlanta, finished up high school.

[00:03:05] And then University of Georgia was a great option, has a great business school.

[00:03:10] I'm a college football junkie.

[00:03:12] So, you know, SEC football was great.

[00:03:14] I didn't grow up on it, but I didn't come out of there saying, hey, I was my major actually was human resources.

[00:03:22] And it's really tied to, I love sports and I love coaching.

[00:03:27] And HR really has all those elements.

[00:03:30] It's about, you know, think about whether it's college or pros, it's about selecting good players, developing good players, managing, coaching good players.

[00:03:40] All those elements come into the HR space, paying players.

[00:03:44] All those things are HR elements.

[00:03:46] So there was the connection and I was fascinated.

[00:03:48] Yeah.

[00:03:49] And then from there, once I graduated, I was in Atlanta, but it was tough for a graduate trying to get an HR job in Atlanta because a lot of headquarters there, a lot of regional headquarters there.

[00:04:04] And so it was tough to break in at a certain job and needed to pay the bills.

[00:04:12] So I started applying for jobs.

[00:04:14] One of them was an insurance company.

[00:04:16] I was with Aetna, happened to be there only three years altogether before I joined Progressive.

[00:04:22] But it gave me a good foundation from a business perspective.

[00:04:27] And that's where really good HR practitioners and particularly recruiting practitioners come from when they come from the business because they know the business.

[00:04:36] And so that's kind of how I got in there from college into the insurance industry.

[00:04:42] That's interesting because that's kind of like the – I remember being at that moment of graduating college and thinking you were just going to own the world, right?

[00:04:52] And you couldn't.

[00:04:53] You couldn't get in.

[00:04:54] So you had to take what you could get to break into the company and build your way.

[00:04:58] Absolutely.

[00:04:58] So I think it's interesting that you bring that up because actually a lot of people that listen to this particular show, they're at the age of graduation, coming out of college.

[00:05:08] And so hearing that I think is super helpful for them, at least coming out of college and starting their career.

[00:05:16] I remember interviewing post-college and it was a – happened to be an HR job and it was for a dairy company in Athens, Georgia.

[00:05:27] And I had a really good interview, especially for being a college kid.

[00:05:31] And I was able to hold my own just coming out.

[00:05:33] So, hey, I don't really have much work experience in space.

[00:05:36] But ultimately that's what ended up being some of the – hey, manager, I love the interview, but I've got a really tenured group.

[00:05:45] And without some of that business knowledge of being in the dairy industry, relatability is going to be a challenge.

[00:05:54] And to Ryan's point earlier, I think you're right.

[00:05:56] You've got to start somewhere to learn the business and then kind of work your way over.

[00:06:01] It's really hard to just jump into it from the very beginning unless it's some really entry-level role.

[00:06:07] Maybe you're working for a staffing agency and, you know, you're doing recruiting coordinator type of activities.

[00:06:13] But for the most part, whether it's, you know, HR or talent acquisition, learning the business is really key.

[00:06:21] You know, what I like about it is you can actually – you can talk to people, especially early in your career, both on the HR side and recruiting.

[00:06:30] It's like, I did that job.

[00:06:32] Yep.

[00:06:33] I did that bit.

[00:06:34] So, you know, it's – I grew up in retail, so a little bit different.

[00:06:40] The people that were really successful when I was in retail were the people that started as cashiers.

[00:06:47] Yeah.

[00:06:47] Or started grabbing the buggies and stuff like that, the people that bag groceries.

[00:06:51] They're the ones that were all store managers.

[00:06:54] That's right.

[00:06:54] Because they did the job.

[00:06:56] They knew – they worked around and worked their way up, and so they knew all the jobs.

[00:07:02] That's right.

[00:07:02] Right.

[00:07:02] That's that credibility piece, right?

[00:07:04] Yeah.

[00:07:04] Because particularly when either you're a leader or if you're in HR or even if you're a recruiter trying to get someone to work, having that credibility that I've done it allows you to have a leg up on influence.

[00:07:15] And a lot of these jobs are about influencing people.

[00:07:17] And they don't teach influence at SHRM.

[00:07:21] That's not one of the – that's not one of the bits.

[00:07:23] Don't teach it in college either.

[00:07:24] I don't remember Influence 101 either.

[00:07:27] No.

[00:07:28] They might teach negotiation.

[00:07:30] That's right.

[00:07:30] You might get a class on negotiation or something that might help you, but not pure influence.

[00:07:38] How do I actually get this person to get from A to B?

[00:07:41] That's right.

[00:07:41] And that wouldn't be a bad class to offer.

[00:07:45] That's great.

[00:07:45] I think that's actually –

[00:07:45] It would be a great class, right?

[00:07:46] It's a needed skill.

[00:07:47] Yeah.

[00:07:47] It would be a matter even in your personal life, right?

[00:07:49] Influencing others when you're not really necessarily the decision maker is a key critical skill.

[00:07:56] Yeah.

[00:07:56] For young folks, older folks, whatever.

[00:07:59] Because every day it leads into negotiations at times.

[00:08:02] Yeah.

[00:08:03] But it also means, hey, how do I get others to follow along?

[00:08:08] It takes trust and credibility.

[00:08:10] Yeah.

[00:08:10] And that's where influence plays a part, to Ryan's point.

[00:08:12] Yeah.

[00:08:13] I'd even argue that a class on influence would be more valuable than a class on negotiation.

[00:08:19] Hey, it's Bob Pulver, host Q Podcast.

[00:08:22] Human-centric AI, AI-driven transformation, hiring for skills and potential, dynamic workforce ecosystems, responsible innovation.

[00:08:31] These are some of the themes my expert guests and I chat about, and we certainly geek out on the details.

[00:08:36] Nothing too technical.

[00:08:37] I hope you check it out.

[00:08:39] It's just going to happen.

[00:08:40] I'm working, Ryan.

[00:08:41] Yeah.

[00:08:42] William doesn't work.

[00:08:43] I had a really, really good negotiation.

[00:08:45] Oh, no, no, no.

[00:08:46] But it was, I was in an MBA program.

[00:08:48] So I had a, I had a professor that was an expert at negotiations and he had done union negotiations, both for and against.

[00:08:58] And so he was just great.

[00:09:02] And the entire class, y'all would love this.

[00:09:04] The entire class was scenarios.

[00:09:08] So, you know, we'd have a class of like 30 students and you'd break out into 15 or 15.

[00:09:14] One was pro, one was against.

[00:09:16] Yeah.

[00:09:17] All right.

[00:09:17] And then here's the scenario.

[00:09:19] Everybody read the same thing.

[00:09:20] And that was a class.

[00:09:22] So like you're going through all the steps and you had to, you had to, by the end of the class, you had to reach a settlement.

[00:09:29] You had to, you had to somehow, you had to get there.

[00:09:33] Yeah.

[00:09:33] Yeah.

[00:09:35] So I would definitely take the influence class.

[00:09:38] Yeah.

[00:09:38] However, if I would have Professor Gerhard, definitely take the negotiation.

[00:09:42] I like, after I took his first class, I changed my schedule to then take his more advanced classes because it was so good.

[00:09:50] So, anyhow.

[00:09:51] I've never had that experience at college.

[00:09:53] Oh my God.

[00:09:54] I never did.

[00:09:55] It was so good.

[00:09:55] Well, I just never had, I think it was, I went to school and I went to school.

[00:09:59] I never had to do a professor.

[00:10:00] You had the same, you had, so I went to public school, high school.

[00:10:04] Mm-hmm.

[00:10:05] Then I went to Bama, big giant public university.

[00:10:07] Then I went to University of Arizona, big public university.

[00:10:10] Mm-hmm.

[00:10:11] And then I went to a private school or a private college.

[00:10:14] Mm-hmm.

[00:10:15] Completely different experience.

[00:10:17] Right.

[00:10:17] We had a, we had a 100 professors for 300 students.

[00:10:25] Yeah.

[00:10:26] One on three.

[00:10:27] No.

[00:10:27] So I could just walk down the halls and step into somebody's office and go, hey, tell

[00:10:32] me a little bit about.

[00:10:34] Yeah.

[00:10:34] No.

[00:10:35] Most of my class sizes were 100, 200.

[00:10:37] Oh no.

[00:10:38] We were in a stadium.

[00:10:40] But anyhow, Neil, curious.

[00:10:41] Okay.

[00:10:42] So you took a claims rep job.

[00:10:44] That's it.

[00:10:44] Get in there.

[00:10:45] You're grinding away.

[00:10:46] How was it?

[00:10:47] Yeah.

[00:10:48] One, how was it?

[00:10:49] And two, how did you start to kind of navigate?

[00:10:51] Did you see a path?

[00:10:52] Did you know where you wanted to go?

[00:10:54] Or did it just organically happen?

[00:10:56] Walk us through that.

[00:10:57] When you're in, when you're in a business operations kind of role, after a while, if you're

[00:11:02] talented and you're willing to work hard, you know, you start to become real good.

[00:11:06] And then after a while, folks start to come to you and they start asking advice.

[00:11:09] And then, you know, you're informal mentoring.

[00:11:11] And then over time, you may be asked by, you know, some leaders in the organization to maybe

[00:11:17] be formal manager.

[00:11:18] And you start to get the roots of trying to be a leader in the organization.

[00:11:22] That interested me.

[00:11:23] Again, it was tied back to my, you know, love of sports, you know, that coaching.

[00:11:27] And so over time, you gain to a level of performance and subject matter expertise.

[00:11:35] And then you start competing for leadership roles.

[00:11:38] And again, there's where the press skills.

[00:11:41] Now, insurance being a claim rep taught a lot.

[00:11:43] William talks about negotiations.

[00:11:45] You're learning that on the fly.

[00:11:46] You're learning about interpreting contracts.

[00:11:49] You're learning about empathy, right?

[00:11:51] Sometimes you, maybe just a bumper claim, you know, but then there were times where I had

[00:11:58] to handle a fatality and that's a totally different game.

[00:12:01] You're walking into someone's house and you're, um, before you even thinking about anything

[00:12:06] about trying to settle a claim, you're, you're, you're faced with life, right?

[00:12:10] Right.

[00:12:10] My three year old kid was just killed in this car accident.

[00:12:14] And that's where you start to learn all kinds of things about, you know, empathy and all

[00:12:20] all the other social and, you know, aspects of human nature go into play at that moment.

[00:12:26] So you just kind of grow as a human in that space over time.

[00:12:30] Right.

[00:12:31] So what are the things that you did at Aetna?

[00:12:34] What made you switch?

[00:12:36] What made you attracted to progressive?

[00:12:38] Just, you know, I always had that growth mindset and it was the opportunity to learn stuff.

[00:12:43] So at Aetna, I was handling just primarily injury claims.

[00:12:48] Right.

[00:12:48] You know, for third party losses and I had a territory and I would go around the state

[00:12:52] of Georgia and I would negotiate with, you know, individuals and sometimes attorneys.

[00:12:58] Uh, but I wanted to learn other aspects.

[00:13:02] And that was kind of the progressive model, right?

[00:13:04] You know, that growth mindset, Peter B. Lewis, right?

[00:13:06] Risk, learn, grow.

[00:13:07] So, and, um, the opportunity to come in and learn and do different things, maybe learn

[00:13:13] the property side, maybe learn, you know, other things like medical, maybe homeowners, just

[00:13:18] those things was, was attractive in switching companies.

[00:13:22] And they were hot.

[00:13:24] Progressive was hot.

[00:13:25] When you joined them, that were, that was, they were the up and comers.

[00:13:29] Uh, they were, I mean, you know, you think about it, they started in 37 as a non standard.

[00:13:33] By the time I get there in 1990, we're just starting to, you know, we're maybe 8,000 employees

[00:13:38] at the time and we're getting into, you know, standard and other products.

[00:13:42] And, you know, that's kind of their, um, kind of their mission, like where they'll, they're

[00:13:47] offering, they want customers for life.

[00:13:49] And so they offer a lot of different products to keep, uh, folks, you know, connected to

[00:13:54] the, you know, the overall mission.

[00:13:56] You know, today we're about 60 to 65,000 employees.

[00:13:59] And so the growth has been there.

[00:14:01] So the opportunities to do different things.

[00:14:03] And what do I admire is really heavy culture on internal movement.

[00:14:08] And it's sort of like, Hey, I'm fascinated that, um, I can drive my own bus.

[00:14:13] If I want to go try something, um, you know, again, that mentality, risk, learn, grow.

[00:14:19] I can try it.

[00:14:20] And if I can do well, I can take it from there.

[00:14:23] And if I don't have opportunities to do something else.

[00:14:25] But let's unpack that a little bit.

[00:14:28] So my, my, I went from a small company, right?

[00:14:32] I'm going to use my personal experience here.

[00:14:33] We're from a small company in Conexa, a couple hundred people to 3000 and then IBM acquires.

[00:14:40] So becomes a massive company and we were given serial numbers, right?

[00:14:45] And so 2G5772, that should just get it on me somewhere.

[00:14:49] That was my serial number at IBM.

[00:14:52] I love the people that I worked with because they transitioned from the previous company, but I never acclimated to the big culture of the company.

[00:15:01] So when you, when you come in at 8000 people, you're right in the middle of that, like you're starting to grow, right?

[00:15:07] So now you're 60, 65,000.

[00:15:09] Talk about that a little bit.

[00:15:11] How does one go from 8000 to 60,000 and maintain sanity and build a career?

[00:15:17] It's a targeted effort.

[00:15:19] And think about Ryan, you were talking favorably about what you enjoyed about that small atmosphere.

[00:15:24] So you're right.

[00:15:25] So we're about 8000.

[00:15:27] And, you know, even before I, you know, before I joined, you know, I would talk to my manager when they were like a couple of thousand.

[00:15:33] Right.

[00:15:33] But what we learned is, Hey, what do you like the most about being here?

[00:15:38] Because the job is hard, right?

[00:15:41] You never know with how much volume may come in.

[00:15:44] We talked about earlier the types of claims that you may get, you know, you may get, you know, like I said, a simple auto damage claim, but then you may get, wow, you got a fatality claim and that, you know, that tugs at you.

[00:15:55] But what I learned across the way that people loved about the company was the people they worked with, no matter how tough the job was.

[00:16:02] And we realized that if we're going to grow and scale and continue this culture going from a thousand to 8000 to eventually 60,000, we had to be intentional about our ability to be leadership and how to make that cultural experience scale to that size.

[00:16:19] So I think it starts with leaders just being intentional and the willingness to pay it forward.

[00:16:24] I love that.

[00:16:25] Oh, my God.

[00:16:26] So when you came over from Edna to Progressive, you were still in claims.

[00:16:31] That's right.

[00:16:31] Or an operational role.

[00:16:33] That's right.

[00:16:34] What was your, because your degree and your background and love of HR, what was the kind of the first movement over into that area?

[00:16:43] What did, first of all, how did you get over there?

[00:16:45] Yeah.

[00:16:46] That's a great story.

[00:16:47] So I went to, I was three years with Edna and then about 1990, I moved to Progressive and I was in that claims organization all the way to about 2000.

[00:16:57] Yeah.

[00:16:58] And a personal circumstance happened where I lost a family member.

[00:17:03] And at that point, it was my spouse at the time.

[00:17:07] And it gave me a reflection point like, hey, what is it that I, you know, when you lose someone you're close to, you're like, what's your purpose in life?

[00:17:15] Right.

[00:17:15] And so here is, I have this degree.

[00:17:18] There's something I really loved.

[00:17:19] I enjoy doing what I'm doing and I'm making good money.

[00:17:23] How do I merge those things?

[00:17:26] And you both have been really tied to the HR and talent acquisition space.

[00:17:32] The one thing you can say that you enjoy is that you get to make a difference in someone's life.

[00:17:38] Sure.

[00:17:39] Right.

[00:17:40] And so we all get, we all thrive about making a difference.

[00:17:43] So there's the opportunity there was right staring at me.

[00:17:46] It was an opportunity to think about doing something different, coming off, you know, a personal tragedy of the situation.

[00:17:57] And I said, I'm going to do it because I need, I need, I need a new purpose to make sense of what just happened to me.

[00:18:05] And that was my purpose.

[00:18:07] It was the ability to jump in into space.

[00:18:09] At that point, I was an established leader in claims.

[00:18:13] We know HR, you know, really good HR professionals.

[00:18:17] Many of them come from the business.

[00:18:19] And so I made the leap over.

[00:18:21] And then, you know, that was about 2000.

[00:18:23] And I haven't looked back from the HR world since then.

[00:18:27] 24 years later, you're still in HR.

[00:18:29] That's right.

[00:18:29] Still moving along.

[00:18:30] So let's start maybe, let's run through that HR journey.

[00:18:35] Right.

[00:18:35] So we eventually get into talent and you're about eight years in this particular space.

[00:18:41] But prior to that, what does that journey look like?

[00:18:43] How did you end up here?

[00:18:44] Yeah.

[00:18:46] So I started off as supporting a, one of the states in progressives claims organization.

[00:18:52] Right.

[00:18:53] Eventually that grows.

[00:18:54] And then over time I worked my partner role.

[00:18:58] Business partner role.

[00:18:59] Great.

[00:18:59] Yeah.

[00:18:59] That's, yep.

[00:19:01] Okay.

[00:19:01] So I'm supporting a business.

[00:19:03] And because I was a leader in claims, I connected well with some of the claim reps and the leaders

[00:19:08] because, hey, back to your point earlier, I did the job.

[00:19:12] Makes sense.

[00:19:13] Right.

[00:19:13] So I can relate.

[00:19:15] Then I had the opportunity to kind of compete for roles where, you know, I'm leading, you

[00:19:22] know, HR organizations for several states.

[00:19:25] And so I stay on this, what I call field HR track for probably 10 years of that first 24,

[00:19:33] of the last 24, I should say.

[00:19:35] And then I have an opportunity to move into a corporate setting.

[00:19:40] And from there.

[00:19:41] That's different.

[00:19:43] Totally different.

[00:19:44] That's different.

[00:19:45] That's a different animal right there.

[00:19:46] Yeah.

[00:19:47] So I'm then taking my, hey, business experience, my business leadership experience, my field

[00:19:53] HR, and I'm wrapping it up.

[00:19:55] And Progressive happens to create a role and it's called the director of employee experience.

[00:20:00] So you're managing elements of talent management, you're managing elements of, you know, DE&I

[00:20:08] programs, and you're saying, hey, I want, we want you to build out what the ideal employee

[00:20:15] experience could look like.

[00:20:17] Dude, that's so far ahead of people.

[00:20:19] So did they create this for you specifically?

[00:20:23] The job was created and I competed for it.

[00:20:27] Right.

[00:20:27] Got it.

[00:20:28] Okay.

[00:20:28] So this is like 2010.

[00:20:30] This is way before.

[00:20:32] This is 2010, exactly.

[00:20:33] So it wasn't created specifically for me, but I was, you know, one of a handful of people

[00:20:40] who had the opportunity to compete.

[00:20:44] Where, before we jump on, where are we at employee size at this point?

[00:20:47] Well, that's a good point.

[00:20:50] Probably in the 30s.

[00:20:51] I'm going to have to guess at that.

[00:20:52] Yeah.

[00:20:53] So the next half of the journey.

[00:20:56] Like now, now we're getting serious about people.

[00:20:59] But you're at corporate.

[00:21:00] Don't hold me to that.

[00:21:01] But we're probably in the 30s at that point.

[00:21:03] Somewhere in the 30s count.

[00:21:04] 30,000s.

[00:21:05] I'm always fascinated, Neil, with practitioners, the decision on which to stay a generalist,

[00:21:14] you know, and kind of move up the ranks of a generalist, or to then go out and do specialization.

[00:21:20] And, you know, going to comp, going to benefits, going to any of the silos.

[00:21:25] And you have all this wonderful HR experience, and then you do the employee experience.

[00:21:33] Yep.

[00:21:34] So you made the decision to do some type of specialization.

[00:21:38] Did you ever?

[00:21:39] I think as you think about it, look at them as critical experiences, right?

[00:21:43] So let's say you're in job X, and you want to move to job Y.

[00:21:48] Right.

[00:21:48] You ask yourself, what are the critical things that I need to be good at, or I've had done?

[00:21:54] Before we move on, I need to let you know about my friend Mark Pfeffer and his show, PeopleTech.

[00:22:00] If you're looking for the latest on product development, marketing, funding, big deals happening in talent acquisition, HR, HCM,

[00:22:10] that's the show you need to listen to.

[00:22:12] Go to the WorkDefine Network, search up PeopleTech, Mark Pfeffer, you can find them anywhere.

[00:22:22] You know what you should know?

[00:22:25] You should know the You Should Know podcast.

[00:22:27] That's what you should know.

[00:22:29] Because then you'd be in the know on all things that are timely and topical.

[00:22:34] Subscribe to the You Should Know podcast.

[00:22:37] Thanks.

[00:22:38] In job X, in order to be in job Y someday.

[00:22:41] So you look at it, and so let's say, I'm making an example.

[00:22:43] Let's say you want to be the chief financial officer of a company.

[00:22:48] You know, I have to have some steps that I've had to have taken in order to get there.

[00:22:52] So I think, depending on where I was wanting to go and be a senior leader in an HR organization,

[00:22:57] I needed to have some different experiences, both on the corporate and on the field side,

[00:23:03] plus the business side was helping me, if I was going to be successful ever being a senior leader in HR.

[00:23:09] Right.

[00:23:10] Right.

[00:23:11] No, I can see that.

[00:23:12] I can see that.

[00:23:13] And the role of EX, which is now what we call it, the role of EX, y'all were pioneering.

[00:23:19] Y'all were way early in that game.

[00:23:22] Yeah.

[00:23:22] So what did you, all of a sudden you get the job.

[00:23:27] What, how did you, because there's not like the books written on it.

[00:23:30] There's no conferences that are running tracks on it or anything like that.

[00:23:34] Not a lot of tech at that point.

[00:23:35] Not a lot of tech?

[00:23:36] There's not a playbook?

[00:23:37] Like, how, how'd you create it?

[00:23:40] Well, you know, you're getting different elements, right?

[00:23:42] So part of your job is you're getting engagement surveying.

[00:23:46] You're getting, you know, the DE&I pieces.

[00:23:48] And, you know, there's a learning to that.

[00:23:51] And how do we grow those programs and make them part of your culture?

[00:23:55] There's aspects of performance management, you know, setting expectations through objectives, right?

[00:24:02] You know, evaluations, assessments.

[00:24:04] For a period of time, I had the, you know, leadership learning development group.

[00:24:09] So you're getting all of these pieces that make up what an employee is going to be going through.

[00:24:15] And the job continues to evolve.

[00:24:17] But again, it's all centered around what do we want an employee here at this company?

[00:24:23] What experiences do we want them to have?

[00:24:25] And we're centralizing some of those efforts.

[00:24:27] And that was the crux of the job.

[00:24:30] It was how do we centralize them to get traction versus having them live in all the different business groups and having different, you know, experiences from there?

[00:24:40] How do we have a unified experience?

[00:24:42] You mentioned the word intentionality earlier.

[00:24:44] This is intentionality, right?

[00:24:46] Personified is you're thinking about their experience and then you're trying different things.

[00:24:52] I'm sure, you know, some things worked well.

[00:24:55] Some things didn't work well.

[00:24:56] Like, that's just life.

[00:24:57] Yeah.

[00:24:57] So you try programs to move people through this experience.

[00:25:02] And again, it's never done.

[00:25:05] You never get to a point where you're like, ah, we got it.

[00:25:08] No.

[00:25:09] So to build on that question I have here, it's curiosity really, is today companies will do this for a business reason, right?

[00:25:21] Business reason.

[00:25:22] At that time, companies were doing this, but it really wasn't the foundation of a lot of companies, right?

[00:25:30] They knew they had to do.

[00:25:31] They wanted to do something.

[00:25:32] Yeah.

[00:25:33] Was this more of a business decision?

[00:25:35] Yeah.

[00:25:41] You can't be churning.

[00:25:43] You can't be churning.

[00:25:44] You can't be churning people.

[00:25:45] Or was this more people got together and said, you know what?

[00:25:48] We really care about employees.

[00:25:50] Let's make a good experience.

[00:25:52] But there really wasn't tied to a business reason.

[00:25:55] There was probably four things that I would say were the pillars, right?

[00:25:58] If you build it on Ryan's question, right?

[00:26:01] You're scaling to growth, right?

[00:26:03] You can't have like 30 different versions of this if you want to go from an 8,000 base employee to a 30,000 or someday be 60.

[00:26:14] And well, by the way, we have aspirations to maybe be over 100 based on where things go.

[00:26:19] So preparing for growth.

[00:26:23] Retention, right?

[00:26:24] You've got to have, you know, William talked about it.

[00:26:26] You've got to have an ideal profile about what things employees need if they're going to continue to stay with you.

[00:26:35] Right.

[00:26:35] Same thing is from an engagement.

[00:26:37] If I'm going to go and go that extra mile as an employee to service, whether it's external or internal customers, my engagement is a critical aspect of that.

[00:26:48] So you're building on those experiences.

[00:26:51] And then lastly, we've got to remember this is a business.

[00:26:54] We've got to do this efficiently, right?

[00:26:57] And so, you know, the centralization allows you to scale, build subject matter expertise, but do it in a manner where it's not breaking the bank in terms of how much it's costing you to do these programs.

[00:27:10] You know, I'm fascinated because you're consumer facing.

[00:27:16] So there's a customer experience somewhere in this process, right?

[00:27:21] Sure.

[00:27:21] There's a customer experience.

[00:27:24] Did you ever lean or pull from some of the things that were the customer experience and pull those into the employee experience?

[00:27:31] Yeah, there are really almost three or four customers, right?

[00:27:35] There's the policyholder.

[00:27:36] Right.

[00:27:37] Right.

[00:27:38] There is the person whom your policyholder may have had, you know, an accident with.

[00:27:43] Okay.

[00:27:44] That's a different experience.

[00:27:46] There is the vendors whom you partner with to bring those external and, you know, customer experiences, you know, to life.

[00:27:56] You know, example, you know, body shops that you partner with to get someone's car back on their driveway.

[00:28:01] A key thing, right?

[00:28:02] And then lastly, it's like how do we service each other?

[00:28:08] Like how does IT service a claim rep in the field who's servicing an external customer?

[00:28:16] So you're really managing all those four dynamics when you think about some of those things.

[00:28:21] Right.

[00:28:23] And you pulled some of that learning into the employee experience.

[00:28:27] You have to, right?

[00:28:29] Because the employee, if I'm an employee servicing an internal employee, you know, I may be like, hey, how do I get your laptop up and running?

[00:28:37] There's a service level there.

[00:28:39] I'm on the phones and, you know, how do I talk to customers in terms of, hey, I'm here to help you service your policy today.

[00:28:47] What changes would you like to make?

[00:28:48] Or if you've had a claim.

[00:28:50] So you're bringing what skills and experiences people need to service all of those different types of customers scenarios.

[00:28:59] Did you look at offboarding during this?

[00:29:01] What the offboarding experience would be?

[00:29:04] Well, let's calibrate.

[00:29:06] Offboarding is when people leave the organization, right?

[00:29:09] Correct, yeah.

[00:29:09] And, you know, think about it this way.

[00:29:13] From a human perspective, there's respect.

[00:29:15] There's the dignity piece.

[00:29:17] From the business side, remember, hey, Ryan, you know, you're a talented individual.

[00:29:23] You're going to leave us at some point possibly and go on to do even bigger and better things.

[00:29:27] Let's also remember, you could be a progressive policyholder.

[00:29:30] So how I have that interaction there.

[00:29:32] Good point.

[00:29:33] Exactly why I was asking that question.

[00:29:35] Plus, what can I learn from Ryan?

[00:29:37] Hey, I'm going to miss Ryan.

[00:29:40] He added a lot to the organization.

[00:29:41] But what can we learn from Ryan's experience is he could be helping us, giving us by the feedback he gives us and say, hey, here's the things that I think worked well.

[00:29:50] Here were the things that I think you guys could have done better.

[00:29:53] So offboarding, a critical aspect in this human space, particularly to learn and grow your business.

[00:29:59] Yeah, and that was the reason I was asking is, you know, if you're, and I don't know how many people were offboarding at that time or what happens here.

[00:30:07] But if 1,500 people leave a year, that's potentially 1,500 customers or at least a high percentage, I would assume, are policyholders at some level that you have to manage that expectation.

[00:30:21] It varies.

[00:30:22] But, yes, first of all, you have employees who are current policyholders.

[00:30:27] You never know a candidate.

[00:30:29] So when you're going through the hiring process, you know, candidates will even say, hey, what interest?

[00:30:34] Well, I'm a policyholder, right?

[00:30:36] And so I get to know about your company and its culture because I'm one of your customers.

[00:30:41] And so now I'm really moved by that.

[00:30:43] And now I kind of want to work in, you know, that same industry and or, you know, company.

[00:30:49] So absolutely.

[00:30:50] It is a big circle.

[00:30:52] And you never know where you're interacting with folks.

[00:30:57] You may even be working with a vendor today.

[00:30:59] And tomorrow they may be a person who applies for one of your jobs inside your own company.

[00:31:04] So there's a lot of connection in this particular industry and this space in general.

[00:31:09] Hi, I'm Stephen Rothberg.

[00:31:11] And I'm Jeanette Leeds.

[00:31:12] And together we're the co-hosts of the High Volume Hiring Podcast.

[00:31:16] Are you involved in hiring dozens or even hundreds of employees a year?

[00:31:20] If so, you know that the typical sourcing tools, tactics, and strategies, they just don't scale.

[00:31:26] Yeah.

[00:31:27] Our bi-weekly podcast features news, tips, case studies, and interviews with the world's leading experts about the good, the bad, and the ugly when it comes to high volume hiring.

[00:31:37] Make sure to subscribe today.

[00:31:40] Yeah.

[00:31:40] So what did you do after EX?

[00:31:43] What was the –

[00:31:44] You know, over time the job continues to grow.

[00:31:47] You get more pieces and you're now codified it and you're calling it, hey, now you're leading our complete talent management efforts.

[00:31:55] Wow.

[00:31:55] Wow.

[00:31:56] So you're now like – you know, so think about the three-legged area, right?

[00:32:02] So you bring people in.

[00:32:04] One, they're here.

[00:32:05] What's their experience?

[00:32:06] And then you've got this experience like how do people get rewarded, right?

[00:32:11] And so those are kind of your pillars that you're looking at from, you know, where do you move to?

[00:32:16] I was always fascinated with the acquisition side.

[00:32:19] Again, it goes back to the coach side, the sports side.

[00:32:24] You know, pro-teens, you know, acquire talent, college teams, recruit kids.

[00:32:30] That was where I had a lot of passion in.

[00:32:34] Plus, it came from that operational side of the business, right?

[00:32:37] So I was in claims for years.

[00:32:39] And so recruiting is like the closest operational job in the HR sense because it's got a clear line of sight.

[00:32:47] Oh, you want to grow.

[00:32:48] Or, you know, Ryan talked earlier about, you know, retention.

[00:32:51] You've got people leaving.

[00:32:52] You've got to backfill.

[00:32:54] There's a clear line of sight.

[00:32:56] If you can do it well in recruiting, you're helping the companies, you know, profit and growth right there.

[00:33:01] You don't have to sell the mission about why what you do is important.

[00:33:06] We all want to grow or we all need help to help us with our jobs, hire people.

[00:33:10] There's where the connection was for me for talent acquisition.

[00:33:14] Challenges.

[00:33:14] I want to talk about challenges.

[00:33:16] So we went through some of the bottlenecks you hit coming up in the space.

[00:33:23] Where does that differ?

[00:33:24] Obviously, recruiting talent management is very different than the other things you were doing.

[00:33:29] Like I said, it has a lot of tie-ins, but it's different.

[00:33:32] Where is it very different?

[00:33:34] Where are the differences that people who are in talent management may not or making that transition may not realize that they're going to face?

[00:33:44] Let's use the comparison to when you're an operational leader.

[00:33:47] I'm leading a team of seven, right?

[00:33:49] And we say today, and we say, okay, Ryan, we've got all these claims today, and I want you to handle, you know, this side of the city.

[00:33:56] And, you know, William, I need you to go uptown and handle this, you know.

[00:34:00] So as a leader, you're making operational decisions all day long.

[00:34:04] Right.

[00:34:04] When you're in the HR space, particularly in, you know, field talent acquisition, talent management, you're relying heavily on the influence, right?

[00:34:14] I've got leaders out there who are consuming.

[00:34:17] So let's just take the talent management.

[00:34:18] I've got learning products.

[00:34:21] I've got performance management things.

[00:34:23] I've got D&I programs for folks.

[00:34:25] I've got, you know, engagement programs.

[00:34:30] I'm a leader.

[00:34:31] I've got to run my day-to-day business.

[00:34:32] But I also, if I want to be a great leader, I've got to figure out how to ingest this thing.

[00:34:37] Now I've got to learn how to collaborate and influence people to use those products to be even better leaders.

[00:34:44] There's where that separation starts to come into play is I'm relying a lot more heavily on influence.

[00:34:51] How do I make the business case?

[00:34:53] Ryan, here's why I think these tools would be great for your organization to help your team continue to grow and for you to continue to be the great leader you are.

[00:35:03] You've got to influence on that stuff.

[00:35:05] Which is why we needed a class on influence.

[00:35:08] Exactly.

[00:35:09] That's why we needed it in college to start with.

[00:35:11] You could have cut 20 years off your career.

[00:35:15] Exactly.

[00:35:16] You probably would have hair back then.

[00:35:21] What shocked you about recruiting?

[00:35:23] I mean, just in general, when you, you know, because we have a good friend of ours that actually grew up in recruiting, did it so well that they moved the company, moved them over to HR.

[00:35:37] And in analytics and things like that.

[00:35:40] So it's like we talk to him occasionally.

[00:35:43] I think of him more as an advisor and friend.

[00:35:47] And it's like he's constantly learning new stuff because it's like it's not what he thought.

[00:35:52] Because he grew up in one thing and all of a sudden now he's managing, leading something completely different.

[00:35:58] And so it's like a brand new day.

[00:36:00] Every new day it's like, oh, okay.

[00:36:02] I didn't know that was going to be there.

[00:36:04] What was the, what was the shock?

[00:36:06] Not shock, but what was unexpected, I guess.

[00:36:09] The most part you interact with people operate with a good sense of core values.

[00:36:14] But there are, there's a handful of people who, for whatever their circumstances are, are really needing to get a job.

[00:36:23] And we'll go to different lengths that are probably not appropriate to get that job.

[00:36:28] Right.

[00:36:29] And the uptick of that recently that we're seeing is where you sit back and say, that doesn't always feel good.

[00:36:37] Right.

[00:36:38] Because you don't think, you don't think, and like when you're moving into the job or you're coming at a call, you don't, you're not wired to think about that.

[00:36:45] Right.

[00:36:46] And so, you know, was I as sticker shocked as some, I don't know.

[00:36:50] I grew up in New York City, so you get to see a lot of stuff.

[00:36:53] And, you know.

[00:36:54] You can't be shocked.

[00:36:56] Come on.

[00:36:57] Yeah.

[00:36:57] So, you know, work there for a period of time, you know, as a leader in claims.

[00:37:03] So, but it is a little disheartening when you see that type of activity going on.

[00:37:09] And you've got hundreds of thousands of people who are doing it the right way.

[00:37:13] And then you've got some handful of folks who, for whatever reason, feel the need to cheat the system.

[00:37:18] That's probably where you're getting into.

[00:37:20] You know, hey, that's probably where it's like, I wasn't thinking that was going to be happening on an everyday basis.

[00:37:26] Right.

[00:37:27] Ryan can attest to that because he was in staffing, executive search.

[00:37:31] Yeah.

[00:37:31] Yeah.

[00:37:32] It takes a little, it steals a little of your humanity.

[00:37:35] That's a great way to say it.

[00:37:37] It does.

[00:37:37] But in the end, when you're helping somebody get to their next step, get them out of a jam almost.

[00:37:43] You know, it's like they get really, they genuinely get excited.

[00:37:46] Absolutely.

[00:37:46] You almost want to be friends with them.

[00:37:48] And then you remember, no, I'm just making money.

[00:37:49] I need to go.

[00:37:51] And move on.

[00:37:52] That's right.

[00:37:52] I'm the person he doesn't want to hire.

[00:37:56] But at that time, I was money motivated.

[00:37:58] You know, it was executive search.

[00:38:00] I needed to.

[00:38:01] Right.

[00:38:02] But even there, that's okay.

[00:38:03] You still have legitimate external and intrinsic motivations.

[00:38:07] Right.

[00:38:08] Okay.

[00:38:08] It's when you don't.

[00:38:10] Listen, there are some people who are trying to get in to do something nefarious once they're in.

[00:38:14] And then there are others who just, they're that desperate to get a job because they need one.

[00:38:19] Right.

[00:38:19] Right.

[00:38:20] That's the thing.

[00:38:20] You're pulling on this, you know, the heartstrings there about, hey, you're able to make it.

[00:38:26] Because we know that what happens when you feel valued as a human, when you're able to contribute by working.

[00:38:32] Right.

[00:38:33] And that's what makes it really tough.

[00:38:35] It's like, that difference that Ryan was talking about earlier, it gets a little bit muted when you have that kind of situation every once in a while.

[00:38:43] Yeah.

[00:38:43] You see that in AI?

[00:38:45] Do you see some of this in technology or the misuse of technologies?

[00:38:51] Or is it just bad actors doing bad things?

[00:38:55] I would say, listen, some people are using AI as a tool.

[00:38:59] But I think it just comes down to there are bad actors.

[00:39:02] And we've had that no matter what industry and what parts of society.

[00:39:06] Bad actors live in every corner of the neighborhood.

[00:39:08] So that just is what it is.

[00:39:12] But for the most part, many folks, many companies use AI responsibly.

[00:39:18] And there are some people who take advantage of that.

[00:39:22] Yeah.

[00:39:23] So you've been at this for a while.

[00:39:25] And we're coming down on time.

[00:39:26] So I'll make this my final question.

[00:39:28] But you've been at this for a while.

[00:39:30] What's the next act?

[00:39:31] Where are we looking at?

[00:39:32] Where are you growing to in the organization?

[00:39:35] I'll say in the organization.

[00:39:36] It could be outside.

[00:39:37] Yeah.

[00:39:38] Definitely.

[00:39:39] Why leave?

[00:39:40] You've got a good thing going.

[00:39:43] You're almost in my head, William.

[00:39:44] I think you're a retirement.

[00:39:47] Is it retirement?

[00:39:48] I've got to go learn a new company?

[00:39:50] Exactly.

[00:39:51] Yeah.

[00:39:52] So I still have a lot to where I want to take the organization in terms of what I want to accomplish.

[00:39:59] You know, there's always that challenge like, hey, this is a new job coming.

[00:40:02] Can I find new sources of skills for the company to continue to grow?

[00:40:06] Can we continue to scale?

[00:40:09] Can we find that really cool technology that makes folks' lives a lot easier?

[00:40:15] So you have those day-to-day challenges.

[00:40:18] I think if I was to leave tomorrow, here's what I would do.

[00:40:21] I think the biggest challenge in the talent acquisition space, particularly just recruiting and for particularly young folks particularly, is learning how to compete.

[00:40:31] Remember how we were talking about how they didn't offer influence in college?

[00:40:35] They didn't do a whole lot of teaching yet.

[00:40:37] Like, how do you compete for jobs in the real world?

[00:40:40] Right.

[00:40:40] Yeah, they had a career center, and you may get some tips.

[00:40:43] Yeah.

[00:40:43] But, you know, listen, sometimes you don't get a job not because you don't have the skills.

[00:40:49] It's just that there was someone better.

[00:40:51] And so that notion of how do I compete?

[00:40:54] Maybe I go up against Ryan, and we're neck and neck.

[00:40:56] But Ryan brings something new and different to the role, and that's why they hire Ryan.

[00:41:01] Right.

[00:41:01] It's not that I was bad or I didn't have the skills or I didn't meet the minimum quality.

[00:41:05] It was just Ryan's better.

[00:41:07] So that ability to compete.

[00:41:09] And so I think what I would do in my next, you know, journey is helping young people learn how to compete for jobs.

[00:41:17] Because we all agreed on this call on one thing is the feeling you get when you can get a job and how that makes one feel and the difference you can make in terms of, A, your personal life, your family, and society.

[00:41:31] It all starts with helping people compete.

[00:41:34] And really, isn't that what coaches do with players?

[00:41:36] How do I compete?

[00:41:38] How did, you know, Dave Roberts help the Los Angeles Dodgers compete and ultimately, you know, beat my Yankees?

[00:41:46] Right?

[00:41:46] It's all about helping people compete and win.

[00:41:48] You're going to get a thumbs up to me there.

[00:41:50] Which part is that?

[00:41:52] He's a Phillies guy.

[00:41:54] Definitely, definitely helping people compete for jobs.

[00:41:56] I actually think that could be your own podcast.

[00:41:59] Like, I love that as a series of episodes.

[00:42:03] That would be fantastic.

[00:42:04] But definitely the Yankees not winning.

[00:42:06] Oh, stop.

[00:42:07] It was fantastic.

[00:42:08] That was a bonus for you on the podcast today, right?

[00:42:10] Way too soon.

[00:42:12] Yeah.

[00:42:12] Last thing for me, Neil, is advice you'd give your younger self.

[00:42:17] If you could go back into that kid at UGA taking his 300-level HR classes and stuff like that, what advice would you give, Neil?

[00:42:29] You know, when you're motivated in life and you're trying to move up the ladder, you know, sometimes you may push a little too hard, right?

[00:42:37] And so at times there's a time where you've got to think space and grace and allow the human elements to kind of work their way in.

[00:42:44] And, you know, if you're wired to do the right things in life, it'll pay off in the end.

[00:42:51] But, you know, sometimes we forget that as we're trying to compete and move up the ladder.

[00:42:55] But sometimes you don't know what other folks are going through.

[00:42:58] Space and grace sometimes.

[00:43:00] Dude, that's the episode title right there.

[00:43:03] Space and grace.

[00:43:03] That is awesome.

[00:43:04] Here you go.

[00:43:05] Neil, thank you for carving out time for us.

[00:43:07] Hey, I appreciate you guys.

[00:43:08] This has been absolutely fantastic.

[00:43:11] Thanks to you and thanks to the audience.

[00:43:13] And we'll see you next time.

[00:43:14] Bye.