Carina Cortez on Transforming Your HR Career: From Entry-Level to Strategic Leadership

[00:00:00] Alright, I want to talk to you for a moment about retaining and developing your workforce.

[00:00:05] It's hard. Recruiting is hard. Retaining top employees is hard. Then you've got onboarding, payroll, benefits, time and labor management.

[00:00:13] You need to take care of your workforce and you can only do this successfully if you commit to transforming your employee experience.

[00:00:21] This is where iSoft comes in. They empower you to be successful. We've seen it with a number of companies that we've worked with.

[00:00:28] And this is why we partner with them here at WorkDefined. We trust them and you should too. Check them out at iSolvedHCM.com.

[00:00:38] Deal has helped over 35,000 businesses simplify global hiring, onboarding, payroll and compliance. Visit Deal.com to learn more. That's D-E-E-L.com.

[00:01:04] Hey, this is William Tincup and Ryan Leary. You are listening, hopefully watching the Practitioner Corner podcast.

[00:01:10] We've got Karina on today and we've actually interviewed Karina before.

[00:01:15] We did.

[00:01:15] So this is actually at Connect in Orlando just a mere, what, two or three months ago.

[00:01:22] Yeah.

[00:01:22] So had a fun time there and we're going to be talking a little bit more about her journey, her path to where she is now.

[00:01:30] And so why don't we just jump right in. Karina, would you do us a favor, the audience a favor and introduce yourself?

[00:01:37] Absolutely. Good to see you all again. Hello, everyone. I am Karina Cortez, the Chief People Officer at Cornerstone On Demand.

[00:01:45] I'm currently coming to you from Dublin, California, not Dublin, Ireland, where our offices are up in the Northern California region.

[00:01:55] And I'm responsible for all things related to our people, talent, attraction, recruitment, total rewards, all the fun stuff that you typically would expect a Chief People Officer to be in charge of.

[00:02:09] And I've been here at Cornerstone for just a little over two years now.

[00:02:13] I started back in July of 2022, but excited to be here again.

[00:02:17] So you were a COVID-ish hire?

[00:02:20] I guess it was kind of coming out of COVID. Yeah.

[00:02:23] Yeah. So I started here just about six months after the Take Private event that occurred for Cornerstone.

[00:02:31] So, yeah, I was hired by Hamanchu Palsuli, our CEO. It was an exciting time to come in at that point.

[00:02:37] Y'all have such a wonderful executive team.

[00:02:40] They do.

[00:02:41] Let me ask you a quick question before we go backwards.

[00:02:45] Ryan and I, we do a news show every Sunday, and we've seen such an uptick in EEOC stuff.

[00:02:53] A lot of fines, a lot of stuff coming out.

[00:02:56] Yeah.

[00:02:56] Have you seen the same?

[00:02:58] No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[00:02:59] I'm just like compliance is always important.

[00:03:02] Always.

[00:03:02] Yeah.

[00:03:03] Hiring compliance.

[00:03:04] Yeah.

[00:03:04] It's always important.

[00:03:05] I know that's important to HR.

[00:03:07] But have you seen some of the same things?

[00:03:10] Well, we're doing really well.

[00:03:12] We're actually going through an OFCCPE audit.

[00:03:14] Oh, cool.

[00:03:15] Okay.

[00:03:16] Fun.

[00:03:17] It's a lot of work, but we're in a good place.

[00:03:20] I think we've done really good with our record keeping and making sure that we're staying ahead of that.

[00:03:26] But it is a place you have to stay current.

[00:03:29] We're lucky to have a good legal team internally as well as partners that we work with externally just to make sure that we're staying up to date on all of that.

[00:03:37] But, yeah, it's something that you have to pay attention to.

[00:03:41] It just seems like it's ratcheted up.

[00:03:43] I'm talking about the fines and some of the things that you see because we look at the EOC.gov website every week just to see what's there.

[00:03:52] And before, probably a couple years ago, it wasn't that much.

[00:03:56] It just didn't seem that intense.

[00:03:58] It seems like there's no focus.

[00:04:01] Yeah.

[00:04:01] Gotcha.

[00:04:02] But it is.

[00:04:04] It's fun to look at the fines.

[00:04:06] I'm not going to lie.

[00:04:07] Karina, it's like these are things that shouldn't be happening.

[00:04:12] Like stupid things.

[00:04:12] This is car accidents.

[00:04:13] This is why people stop at car accidents.

[00:04:15] Yeah.

[00:04:15] This is like common sense things are getting fined for.

[00:04:18] Like you're treating people.

[00:04:19] Yeah, that's fair.

[00:04:19] Treat them like a human.

[00:04:20] But it's actually pretty fun to see these, let's say fun, interesting.

[00:04:28] Go interesting.

[00:04:29] The fines that these companies are paying, but they're just paying to get, in my opinion.

[00:04:35] I feel like they're paying just to get rid of the noise.

[00:04:38] They're not actually admitting that they didn't pay their employees backed wages and overtime for four years.

[00:04:44] They're just saying, let's get this off our plate.

[00:04:47] And a lot of it's classification stuff.

[00:04:49] Yeah.

[00:04:50] So you got that bit that I think we've been talking about for 30 years.

[00:04:54] And then Ryan's found a couple of cases where they take the tips that the employees get.

[00:05:01] And then they don't give them the tips.

[00:05:03] And so they reinvested in the company.

[00:05:08] They were buying paper products and stuff.

[00:05:10] Or it was a fast food chain.

[00:05:11] Yeah.

[00:05:12] You've got to be kidding me.

[00:05:14] They were using the tip money to then go and buy stuff like that.

[00:05:19] So anyhow, let's go backwards in time.

[00:05:21] Yeah.

[00:05:22] And let's say college.

[00:05:24] I think that's a good place to start.

[00:05:25] Sure.

[00:05:25] Where did you want to be when you were in college?

[00:05:28] Interestingly, so I went to Cal Poly San Luis Obispo, which is an amazing school.

[00:05:34] Great school.

[00:05:34] And to join there, you have to declare a major.

[00:05:36] So I really didn't know.

[00:05:38] I was 17 when I was going to college.

[00:05:40] I didn't know what I wanted to do.

[00:05:41] But I picked business administration.

[00:05:44] I thought it was pretty broad.

[00:05:45] Could give me enough opportunity to figure out what I wanted to do when I was ready.

[00:05:50] And I took my first human resource management class probably about my second or third year when I was there and just fell in love with the practice there.

[00:06:00] So I think I'm one of the rare humans that actually knew they wanted to go into HR.

[00:06:06] And I can confirm that.

[00:06:09] We don't come across many.

[00:06:11] I can validate that study of one.

[00:06:14] Yes.

[00:06:15] So they make you declare a major.

[00:06:17] I mean, I had literally no clue.

[00:06:19] I mean, I didn't know what I wanted to do when I was graduating.

[00:06:22] Let alone when I was coming in.

[00:06:23] That's what they do at Texas A&M.

[00:06:26] Yeah.

[00:06:26] In fact, when you apply, you have to declare.

[00:06:30] And so Henry knew he wanted to do physics.

[00:06:33] So it wasn't that big of a deal.

[00:06:34] However, you don't just apply to the school.

[00:06:37] You got to get into the school.

[00:06:39] So you got that stuff.

[00:06:40] But you got to apply to the department.

[00:06:42] Right.

[00:06:43] And so like some schools like Cal Poly, the engineering, that stuff lights up pretty fast.

[00:06:49] Yeah.

[00:06:50] Yeah.

[00:06:50] And those, you know, those are perfect SAT scores, you know, all kinds of crazy stuff.

[00:06:56] And it's just they've only got so many spots.

[00:06:57] What's the rate of change?

[00:06:58] That's what I want.

[00:06:59] Like, what's the rate of change from major to major?

[00:07:02] You can't.

[00:07:02] If they're making you declare.

[00:07:04] They make it pretty challenging for you.

[00:07:06] Yeah.

[00:07:06] And I think, you know, at Cal Poly now, you can only change your major once.

[00:07:10] That's right.

[00:07:10] But it's a pretty high bar.

[00:07:12] You have to clearly even do it once.

[00:07:14] Agreed.

[00:07:14] And you've got an add a year.

[00:07:17] Usually in those types.

[00:07:18] Yeah.

[00:07:19] There's a lot of schools.

[00:07:20] It's really more the technical schools that are doing that.

[00:07:23] You know, like University of Texas, you can just apply to school.

[00:07:27] Get into the school and then just declare your major two or three years into it and then

[00:07:31] figure all that stuff out.

[00:07:32] When I went to Alabama, it was that way.

[00:07:35] Yeah.

[00:07:36] So, I think the more technical schools like Cal Poly, I think they want the kids that already

[00:07:41] know what they want to be.

[00:07:43] Right.

[00:07:44] That's what it seems like.

[00:07:45] That's what it seems like.

[00:07:46] So, yes, I guess I was fortunate that I picked a broad area to focus in.

[00:07:51] But what did it for me was I had my professor for my intro to HR management class.

[00:07:57] She actually came from the business side.

[00:08:00] So, she actually worked in corporate America, if you will.

[00:08:03] She was an HR practitioner.

[00:08:05] And so, she just brought a lot of pragmatism into what she was talking about.

[00:08:10] So, it wasn't a lot of theoretical or this might happen and go learn.

[00:08:14] It was very much about, hey, this is what HR management is and this is what I'm doing.

[00:08:19] And this was probably about the time.

[00:08:21] I mean, this was back in the 1990s.

[00:08:23] We're not using dates.

[00:08:25] We're not using dates.

[00:08:26] It's better than the 80s.

[00:08:28] So, we're good.

[00:08:29] Let's not use dates.

[00:08:30] Let's not use dates.

[00:08:31] But the reason I say that, I think it is important to say that, is it was at this point of time where there was much more or starting to become a focus on the strategic nature of human resources, which I can say looking back now, I didn't know it at that particular moment.

[00:08:45] But something struck me about most organizations, and I lived in the Bay Area, still do, were going towards this.

[00:08:54] You have your humans.

[00:08:55] That's the people that are making, right?

[00:08:58] It's not an output necessarily.

[00:09:00] It's not a widget that you're looking at, but it's this knowledge that you have, these knowledge workers.

[00:09:04] And how do you manage that?

[00:09:07] Have you ever been to a webinar where the topic was great, but there wasn't enough time to ask questions or have a dialogue to learn more?

[00:09:13] Well, welcome to HR and Payroll 2.0, the podcast where those post-webinar questions become episodes.

[00:09:19] We feature HR practitioners, leaders, and founders of HR, payroll, and workplace innovation and transformation sharing their insights and lessons learned from the trenches.

[00:09:27] We dig in to share the knowledge and tips that can help modern HR and payroll leaders navigate the challenges and opportunities ahead.

[00:09:34] So join us for highly authentic, unscripted conversations, and let's learn together.

[00:09:38] In terms of the work environment that you're in.

[00:09:41] So it was just really cool to have a professor who had that experience and brought that to bear during that course.

[00:09:47] This was to move from personnel department to HR.

[00:09:50] Right, right.

[00:09:52] Did she become a mentor?

[00:09:56] While I was there, I lost touch with her since then.

[00:10:00] I've been fortunate to have some mentors along the way, but yeah, no, I didn't keep in touch with her, unfortunately.

[00:10:05] Well, the fact that she was a practitioner, I went through an HR class when I was in business school, but it was an academic.

[00:10:15] You had a PhD in human resources, and so it was cool, theoretical, and it was cool.

[00:10:22] It kept us up to date with the latest and greatest type stuff, but not, like you said, pragmatic.

[00:10:28] Right.

[00:10:28] That wasn't a bit.

[00:10:31] Yeah, and interestingly, as I moved through my career, especially when I took a turn to go into learning and development,

[00:10:37] that was one thing that I was kind of bothered by some of the L&D practitioners is many have PhDs, which is awesome,

[00:10:45] but it was how do you take that theoretical and make it work in a work environment where you're having to convince a sales leader

[00:10:52] to take the time to focus on this development program, and it's like, no, I've got to go get sales.

[00:10:57] How do you actually have that conversation?

[00:10:59] Or this is great in theory, but no one's actually ever going to implement it, and so I think that was interesting.

[00:11:05] The way that I was brought up was I was mostly on the HR generalist, people business partner side,

[00:11:11] and I could say, this is great in theory, but there's no way I'm going to get the leaders to buy off on this

[00:11:16] so I could bring that practical edge to the work that I was doing.

[00:11:20] Right.

[00:11:20] So, Karina, I want to go back to mentorship for a moment.

[00:11:24] So you mentioned mentor.

[00:11:25] William asked about your professor being a mentor.

[00:11:28] So you've had, I'm assuming, I shouldn't assume, but you've had mentors throughout your career.

[00:11:34] Absolutely, yes.

[00:11:35] So what is the difference from the time you were in school and looked at your professor there as a mentor

[00:11:42] to, I guess, throughout your career?

[00:11:45] How has your view on mentors changed?

[00:11:48] What maybe you've sought out, the intent behind it?

[00:11:51] Maybe talk to us a bit about that.

[00:11:52] Yeah, I have a strong opinion on this that I really don't think forced mentoring works.

[00:12:01] 100%.

[00:12:02] Yeah, 100%.

[00:12:02] So people ask me to put in place...

[00:12:04] I can validate that.

[00:12:06] Yes.

[00:12:06] When people ask me to put in place formal mentoring programs, I really try to encourage them of like,

[00:12:12] who do you admire?

[00:12:13] Like, they don't even have to be in the work environment.

[00:12:15] Who is someone that you would really like to get to know better?

[00:12:18] You're excited about where they're at in their career.

[00:12:22] Maybe someone who just inspires you and try to make a connection that way.

[00:12:26] What I find when we've had, and I've been through a forced program before,

[00:12:30] is it just becomes a check the box activity.

[00:12:32] That's right.

[00:12:32] Quite frankly, it is.

[00:12:33] Let's have coffee.

[00:12:34] Let's have coffee once a month.

[00:12:36] Yes.

[00:12:36] Let's do the, how are you doing stuff, but you're not really learning anything.

[00:12:41] Exactly.

[00:12:42] And with that too is, I think there's a misnomer about mentorship is like, as the mentor,

[00:12:48] I'm just pouring out all of my knowledge to you and telling you what to do.

[00:12:52] When in reality, it's a great mentor from my perspective is someone who can ask you the

[00:12:57] hard questions, make you do some introspection, maybe make you go read a book or listen to a

[00:13:02] podcast or whatever it might be.

[00:13:03] But it's to help you develop yourself further because generally speaking, I think people know

[00:13:09] intuitively what they need to do is just being asked the right questions to get myself to that

[00:13:14] confidence level of absolutely.

[00:13:16] This is, this is what I need to do.

[00:13:18] So curiosity.

[00:13:22] Absolutely.

[00:13:22] Curiosity is huge.

[00:13:23] That intellectual curiosity.

[00:13:25] And so, yeah, some of those best mentors that I've had have been bosses of mine.

[00:13:30] And I have a former boss who I'm still in touch with today and he's still very, you know, hopeful

[00:13:35] to me in many regards, but also just people I admired.

[00:13:39] And, you know, it's just kind of informal.

[00:13:42] They're not real formal programs, if you will.

[00:13:44] Well, we had Kim Sneeter on from, she's from the Legis Group Career Circle is the company

[00:13:51] she runs for Legis.

[00:13:54] And her bit on mentorship was just like, you got to have an idea of what you want to learn.

[00:13:59] Like, like she was a doer and she's been with Legis for 25 years.

[00:14:04] So she was a doer for a while.

[00:14:05] And her boss said, you're fantastic.

[00:14:07] Kim, you're, you're a great doer.

[00:14:10] You need to learn leadership.

[00:14:12] You need to know how to learn.

[00:14:14] You're going to tap out.

[00:14:15] Yeah.

[00:14:15] You need to learn leadership and I'll start, I'll help you.

[00:14:19] And then you need to seek out other people to then learn these things.

[00:14:23] And so she took us on this odyssey around mentorship became a game for her as what are the things

[00:14:30] I need to learn and who is doing those exceptionally well and then working out a relationship with

[00:14:36] them.

[00:14:37] Yeah.

[00:14:38] So there's an element of, you know, how can you get connected to these people?

[00:14:42] Who do I know that knows that?

[00:14:43] And I think LinkedIn honestly is great for that.

[00:14:46] You can go look, Hey, who do I know?

[00:14:47] Could possibly make an introduction for me.

[00:14:50] Right.

[00:14:51] Right.

[00:14:51] We've had it the other way too, William, where we've had someone who's been at, so Karina

[00:14:57] was a CEO who's been in 30, 35 years, who was also a professor.

[00:15:02] And he was telling us how his students were almost in a mentor position for him where he's

[00:15:10] been in the game so long when he went back in to teach the energy of the students reminded

[00:15:17] him of, yeah, this is why I got into it.

[00:15:20] And the question that they were asking, although elementary.

[00:15:24] Re-invigorated him.

[00:15:25] Right.

[00:15:25] Re-invigorated him where he actually left and started another company.

[00:15:29] Oh.

[00:15:30] Yeah.

[00:15:30] But like use them as a mentor, as a springboard to gain his energy back in that space.

[00:15:37] Do you, do you, do you get asked to be a mentor?

[00:15:40] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:15:41] Yeah.

[00:15:42] I, and I'm.

[00:15:42] I don't, that could be offensive.

[00:15:44] I don't, I don't know.

[00:15:46] No, no, no.

[00:15:47] No, no.

[00:15:49] First of all, I'd never do that to you.

[00:15:51] Second of all, I've never been asked to be a mentor.

[00:15:55] So I'm a little jealous.

[00:15:58] Coming from a position of weakness.

[00:16:01] No, no, no.

[00:16:03] I think, I think people know me well enough to not go down that path, but yeah.

[00:16:06] Anyhow.

[00:16:07] No, I took no offense to that, by the way.

[00:16:09] Okay.

[00:16:09] It's a fair question to ask.

[00:16:11] Yeah, I have.

[00:16:12] And I'm, I'm pretty selective in, in terms of who I choose to mentor.

[00:16:16] And I try to get to the heart of like, what is it that you're asking?

[00:16:19] Why are you asking me this?

[00:16:20] What are the things that you want to do?

[00:16:22] And I also make sure that who I'm mentoring is willing to put in some work as well, because

[00:16:27] I think there's an element of, you know, there's practices that I like, or honestly, like books

[00:16:33] I like to read.

[00:16:34] I'm a pretty avid book reader.

[00:16:36] I like to listen to podcasts.

[00:16:37] I like to learn continuously.

[00:16:39] And I want someone who has that as part of their DNA makeup as well, because I think we

[00:16:45] all learn differently, whatever that might be.

[00:16:47] And so I want to make sure we're not just having a conversation every couple of weeks,

[00:16:51] but something that you're doing in the meantime that can expand your, your knowledge base as

[00:16:56] well.

[00:16:57] I, as we get into your career, one of the things that I'll be fascinated to learn is sometimes

[00:17:03] people take the path of generalist.

[00:17:06] So they start off as a generalist and then they just go, keep going through generalist.

[00:17:10] And then some folks then kind of divert, go into recruiting, go into comp, go into whatever,

[00:17:15] you know, go into a place and never get back to being a generalist.

[00:17:19] They just keep going and stay there.

[00:17:22] And it seems like you've done both.

[00:17:25] You've been able to do the generalist, go into a path, come back to be a generalist and

[00:17:29] go up.

[00:17:29] So I will, I will, cause it's fascinating to me because you can get really good at stuff

[00:17:35] like say comps are great benefits.

[00:17:37] You get really good at something.

[00:17:38] I can see where it would be attractive not to go back to being a journalist.

[00:17:42] Yes.

[00:17:43] I think a lot of that, and I joke with anyone I've ever worked with that's been in compensation

[00:17:49] and benefits.

[00:17:50] It's just not a space for me.

[00:17:52] Oh no.

[00:17:52] I'm like keeping away from a spreadsheet.

[00:17:55] Yeah.

[00:17:56] Yeah.

[00:17:57] You lost me a pivot table.

[00:17:59] I'm sorry.

[00:18:00] Exactly.

[00:18:00] I have to Google how to do that every single time.

[00:18:03] But yeah, absolutely.

[00:18:05] I think that it's good from the perspective of being able to try out the different areas

[00:18:10] as with any function.

[00:18:11] Like what really draws you?

[00:18:13] What is getting you to get out of bed every day?

[00:18:16] What are you passionate about?

[00:18:17] And having the opportunity to try different things out, I think is really important.

[00:18:21] And I was able to do that pretty early in my career.

[00:18:24] And I just know too, like there's things I enjoy doing.

[00:18:27] There's things I don't.

[00:18:28] And if I can keep it on the path of the stuff I like, all the better for everyone.

[00:18:32] Better off.

[00:18:33] Yeah.

[00:18:33] So how did you get it?

[00:18:35] How did you get into people?

[00:18:37] So generalist, how did you end up in the people business?

[00:18:40] Yeah.

[00:18:40] After college.

[00:18:41] So after college, a classic story of networking.

[00:18:45] So I used to, well, after college, I moved back in with my parents as many, many people

[00:18:52] do.

[00:18:53] And my dad's co-worker's wife was working at Visa and they happened to need someone to

[00:19:00] run a very entry level role, which they called their HR help desk, which I was recently a

[00:19:06] receptionist and would answer kind of like a hotline.

[00:19:10] You've been replaced by chatbots.

[00:19:12] Oh, totally.

[00:19:13] This is before employee self-service.

[00:19:16] Correct.

[00:19:16] So before they had the platforms for employee self-services, this was, hey, I forgot my

[00:19:22] login to so-and-so.

[00:19:24] What do we have at Vision Care?

[00:19:25] All of that.

[00:19:26] I'm going out on leave.

[00:19:27] What do I do?

[00:19:28] Yeah.

[00:19:28] Right.

[00:19:28] Total loss.

[00:19:30] Support employee changes that I had.

[00:19:32] That's a deep end of the pool right there.

[00:19:35] Good for you.

[00:19:35] Oh, my God.

[00:19:36] Yes.

[00:19:37] So anyway, she referred me for the role and I started out as a temporary employee, actually,

[00:19:43] and then got hired on permanently after a couple of months.

[00:19:46] But yeah, that was how I got into HR.

[00:19:50] And from there, did you stay at Visa and move up in Visa or do some things different?

[00:19:55] Some time.

[00:19:56] I was there for seven years.

[00:19:58] And so from that role, I moved into doing a recruiting coordinator.

[00:20:03] So I had some time in recruiting.

[00:20:05] I was a new hire coordinator.

[00:20:07] So we had a lot of hiring we were doing back then.

[00:20:10] And so I was just making sure that the new employees were in their programs that they

[00:20:14] needed to be.

[00:20:15] I did some stand-up facilitation.

[00:20:17] Then I ended up going into an HR generalist role and was mainly supporting people on the

[00:20:23] technology side of the organization.

[00:20:26] Kind of worked my way up through there.

[00:20:28] And then after several years, seven years, I ended up moving over to PayPal and became

[00:20:34] a people business partner for, I would say, the non-technical side of the organization.

[00:20:39] So it was product, sales, marketing.

[00:20:41] At the time, we called it the international business.

[00:20:44] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:20:46] What's your take?

[00:20:48] What's your take?

[00:20:49] Because we found through talking to a lot of practitioners, there's strong opinions on

[00:20:54] the HR business partner kind of model.

[00:20:57] Both ways, right?

[00:20:59] So you've actually done it and seen it.

[00:21:03] Do you have an opinion, strong opinion either way?

[00:21:06] So where I think that the best value comes from a people business partner, HR business

[00:21:11] partner role is when they are able to focus on the executive and kind of the higher level

[00:21:18] order of things that need to be done.

[00:21:20] Meaning that there are like where I started my career in terms of answering those day-to-day

[00:21:25] questions.

[00:21:25] If you're having a people business partner, and depending on the size of the organization,

[00:21:29] let me just caveat that.

[00:21:30] But if you're having them having to go from, I didn't get my paycheck today to, by the way,

[00:21:36] we need to go open a new service center in the Philippines.

[00:21:39] And how do I do that?

[00:21:40] That's tough to kind of keep flexing in between those things.

[00:21:43] So if you can have that people business partner who really understands your business and then

[00:21:47] can tell you, hey, from a people perspective, we're noticing this type of attrition, this

[00:21:52] type of talents here.

[00:21:54] Gosh, you're in a lot of high cost locations, whatever it might be.

[00:21:57] Right.

[00:21:57] It's better off than if you have them kind of going back and forth between trying to field

[00:22:01] everyday questions, getting into everyday employee relations issues, et cetera.

[00:22:07] So I think that there's a lot of value and I don't, to me, the conversation anymore isn't

[00:22:13] about, can I get a seat at the table as a people business partner or there?

[00:22:17] And so it's more of what value are you bringing to the business then with that seat that you've

[00:22:22] earned?

[00:22:23] Oh my goodness.

[00:22:25] Bad touching, harassment, sex, violence, fraud, threats, all things that could have been

[00:22:34] avoided.

[00:22:35] If you had Fama, stop hiring dangerous people.

[00:22:42] Fama.io.

[00:22:45] Hey, what's going on everyone?

[00:22:46] Ryan Leary here from Work Defined.

[00:22:48] You know, if there was one thing that I could change about recruiting, it would probably be

[00:22:54] the amazingly awful candidate experience that job seekers have to endure at one of the most

[00:23:02] stressful times in their life.

[00:23:04] Hiring teams, it is time to step up.

[00:23:08] You've got to create an experience that is memorable, fast and efficient.

[00:23:12] And you can do that with Indeed Smart Sourcing.

[00:23:16] Check them out online at Indeed.com or just Google Indeed Smart Sourcing.

[00:23:23] Two questions that I have.

[00:23:25] And I guess you take them in any order here.

[00:23:27] These are actually two drastically different questions, but they're in my head.

[00:23:31] I'm going to ask them.

[00:23:33] Both cowboy related.

[00:23:34] They are.

[00:23:35] So you're going to be fine.

[00:23:35] What's wrong with Dak Prescott?

[00:23:37] No, I'm kidding.

[00:23:39] I'm going to take my break.

[00:23:40] Don't make me hit the play button, people, because I'll do it.

[00:23:44] I will do it.

[00:23:46] All right.

[00:23:47] Two questions.

[00:23:48] One is you've been at big companies.

[00:23:51] Yeah.

[00:23:52] How does somebody who's moving into an HR business partner or whatever the equivalent

[00:23:58] is in their company, how do they think big but act small?

[00:24:06] And by act small, meaning how do you get personal with your individual employees and make them

[00:24:12] feel as if they're at a 30 or a 40 person company and are being cared for?

[00:24:17] Yeah.

[00:24:18] Well, I think that's maybe something where I believe from a people business partners perspective,

[00:24:24] I'm not going to know every single person that's in the organization that I'm taking

[00:24:28] care of.

[00:24:29] And the reality is, yes, I want to be approachable.

[00:24:32] I want people to feel comfortable coming to me.

[00:24:34] But at the end of the day, I'm not there to be, excuse me, but I'm not here to be everyone's

[00:24:38] friend.

[00:24:39] I'm here to help drive shareholder value.

[00:24:41] I'm here to make sure that we're providing the value we need to our customers and that

[00:24:46] we're able to deliver on the promises that we're making to our shareholders and our customers.

[00:24:51] So rather, I think that's a misconception that HR is there to be your friend.

[00:24:57] Yeah, we can be nice to you just like any other one of your coworkers.

[00:25:00] But in reality, it's am I driving the right things for the business?

[00:25:04] Am I having the right conversations?

[00:25:05] And am I able to have that strategic lens as we were just talking about on what do we

[00:25:10] need to do with the people in our organization in order to achieve our goals?

[00:25:13] And so that's why I think this model that we were just talking about works best, too,

[00:25:17] because you may not have a dedicated person to you if you're below that executive level,

[00:25:23] if you will.

[00:25:23] You're not going to have a dedicated person.

[00:25:25] We would have to hire way too many resources.

[00:25:27] But do I know where to go to get information, whether it's our intranet site?

[00:25:32] I know how to submit a request if I have a question.

[00:25:35] And then I'm getting a consistent result, I think, is the better question for people to

[00:25:39] be asking themselves in terms of the service level they're receiving versus having a person

[00:25:44] that they need to go to from the HR function.

[00:25:47] And I think that's been an evolution we've gone through from, you know, and why it maybe

[00:25:52] has gone from HR to people or talent is that that's changed now.

[00:25:56] It's not we're here to serve the each individual individually.

[00:26:00] And thank you for saying that because, Wim, you might remember something and I don't.

[00:26:05] But of all the people we've had on here, Karina, not one of them has answered that question

[00:26:10] that way.

[00:26:11] Agreed.

[00:26:12] It's always been, you got to get personal.

[00:26:14] You got to love and handhold.

[00:26:15] No one's ever just come out and said, no, that's not what we're here for.

[00:26:19] Yeah.

[00:26:20] So I appreciate that because that's...

[00:26:23] Even, you know, the smallest organization I've been at has been less than a thousand.

[00:26:27] Same thing.

[00:26:28] Like, I just, there's no way for me to practically know that.

[00:26:31] Right.

[00:26:32] On an individual level.

[00:26:33] And, you know, largest organization was Walmart, which there's no way you can ever know

[00:26:37] everyone there.

[00:26:39] I want to get your take one.

[00:26:42] And after this, real quick, the, I was interviewing the chief people officer at ADP.

[00:26:48] And our bit was both of our hatred of stay interviews.

[00:26:53] So we bonded over that bit because he really hates them.

[00:26:58] And I moderately hate them.

[00:27:00] Anyhow, but he went on this thing about touch, his touch points.

[00:27:04] He goes, I have seven direct reports.

[00:27:07] I talk to them every single week.

[00:27:10] There is a week that goes by that I don't have an hour conversation about them, about

[00:27:15] what's going on in their world.

[00:27:17] And then that watersheds, you know, through the organization.

[00:27:20] And so things can go bubbled up.

[00:27:22] So he's always got a finger on the pulse of what's going on throughout his organization.

[00:27:26] Mm-hmm.

[00:27:27] What's your bit on your team that you have around you?

[00:27:31] Yeah.

[00:27:32] And how you stay connected to the, you know, what's going on in the organization?

[00:27:36] Yeah, very similarly.

[00:27:37] I have staff meeting once a week.

[00:27:40] And so this is for us just to give updates about what's going on.

[00:27:43] And then every week I'm meeting with each of my direct reports and even some skip levels

[00:27:47] as well, depending on what's going on in the business.

[00:27:50] I might need to be digging into an area a little bit deeper.

[00:27:54] So as an example, one of our people, business partners, doesn't report directly to me.

[00:27:58] We've just hired a new executive.

[00:28:00] I wanted to stay closely connected to make sure the onboarding was going well.

[00:28:04] If there were obstacles, I could quickly remove those.

[00:28:06] So I'm making sure that I'm having those conversations.

[00:28:09] And interesting to the point of the state interviews, if you're getting to a point where

[00:28:13] you have to call it a state interview, you've missed some of those touch points along the way.

[00:28:18] But at the same time, I think it's a helpful tool for someone who may not know.

[00:28:22] And it's like, okay, let's start practicing these conversations.

[00:28:25] But as with so many things, I would say that the people team delivers from a programmatic

[00:28:31] perspective.

[00:28:32] It's just good hygiene.

[00:28:33] And that I think that's where from a manager onboarding, and I'm saying manager, not leader,

[00:28:38] but manager, like making sure that they know that these things are critical.

[00:28:42] So you should never be surprised when somebody's leaving.

[00:28:45] Like you should have an idea because either the role is not the right fit for them, or

[00:28:49] they've reached their maximum potential at the company.

[00:28:51] They don't have an upward path if that's what they're looking for.

[00:28:55] So on the other side of that, William, one of the things I've been talking to my team about

[00:29:00] is how effective are our exit interviews?

[00:29:02] What are we actually doing?

[00:29:04] The data?

[00:29:04] I don't believe a word.

[00:29:09] First of all, it's an IQ test.

[00:29:12] If you're so stupid, you're going to tell the truth.

[00:29:15] Yeah.

[00:29:16] Okay.

[00:29:17] So that's the, okay.

[00:29:19] And if you're really smart, you're going to say everything was fantastic because you

[00:29:23] don't want to burn any bridges.

[00:29:24] So you don't get anything valuable, in my opinion.

[00:29:26] I've always felt exit interviews, or at least the ones that I've been through, have been.

[00:29:34] Hi, I'm Steven Rothberg.

[00:29:35] And I'm Jeanette Leeds.

[00:29:36] And together, we're the co-hosts of the High Volume Hiring Podcast.

[00:29:40] Are you involved in hiring dozens or even hundreds of employees a year?

[00:29:44] If so, you know that the typical sourcing tools, tactics, and strategies, they just don't scale.

[00:29:50] Yeah.

[00:29:51] Our bi-weekly podcast features news, tips, case studies, and interviews with the world's leading

[00:29:56] experts about the good, the bad, and the ugly when it comes to high volume hiring.

[00:30:02] Make sure to subscribe today.

[00:30:04] More about the person giving me the exit interview, if it was with the executive, was it me or

[00:30:10] was it the other people?

[00:30:12] Like, justify that it wasn't me.

[00:30:14] That's kind of the feeling I've got.

[00:30:16] Tell me it wasn't me.

[00:30:18] It's a validation study.

[00:30:19] Like, William, did he mess up somewhere?

[00:30:21] No, it was you.

[00:30:22] I don't get anything.

[00:30:23] It's all trash.

[00:30:24] Yeah.

[00:30:25] I don't know.

[00:30:25] I forgot my second question already.

[00:30:30] But I tried to think of it, and I couldn't.

[00:30:33] But another one came to mind.

[00:30:35] All right.

[00:30:36] That's what happens as you get over it.

[00:30:38] Yeah.

[00:30:39] We've asked this question.

[00:30:39] It happens with age.

[00:30:40] We've asked this question before.

[00:30:42] CPO versus CHRO.

[00:30:45] Is the title different?

[00:30:46] Title's different.

[00:30:47] Is the job different?

[00:30:48] People ops.

[00:30:49] Or is it synonymous?

[00:30:50] Where are you at with that?

[00:30:52] Yeah.

[00:30:53] For me, I think language is really important.

[00:30:55] How you talk about things can make a real difference.

[00:30:58] And so that was one of the things that I was actually adamant about was for the role when

[00:31:03] I came in here at Cornerstone was called a chief talent officer.

[00:31:07] And I wanted to change that to a chief people officer.

[00:31:10] And my reason rationale around that was I'm also trying to reach people who are not in the

[00:31:16] organization.

[00:31:17] And I'm also trying to stay connected some way or shape or form with people who are alumni

[00:31:22] from the organization as well.

[00:31:24] And so for me, it's not about the talent piece only.

[00:31:28] It's broader than that.

[00:31:30] And I also think human resources has a rigidity to it that, you know, I think it was a good

[00:31:39] shift to go from personnel to human resources.

[00:31:41] Let me just speak about that.

[00:31:42] But then we've evolved.

[00:31:43] And so I think with anything, it's just being mindful of what are you trying to convey with

[00:31:48] the language that you're using?

[00:31:49] How do you want to talk about yourself?

[00:31:51] What does it convey?

[00:31:53] What kind of, you know, it's like anything when you're doing with the marketing or branding,

[00:31:56] like what are people going to think when they feel it?

[00:31:59] So I think we've evolved more into what's the experience individuals have.

[00:32:04] I think that's a big piece of the role.

[00:32:06] What's the culture?

[00:32:07] I think is a bigger piece of the role now too.

[00:32:09] And so that's different than being a resource for humans.

[00:32:12] So for me, it is a...

[00:32:14] Human capital had the same kind of connotation that people...

[00:32:19] I hated that.

[00:32:20] Yeah.

[00:32:21] Well, it turns out a lot of people in Silicon Valley, they liked it.

[00:32:25] And Wall Street the same way.

[00:32:27] Yeah.

[00:32:27] I mean, we still talk about human capital strategy, which I think makes sense to talk about it in

[00:32:32] that regard.

[00:32:32] But yeah.

[00:32:33] In that regard.

[00:32:33] I shouldn't call that.

[00:32:34] Yeah.

[00:32:35] I feel you.

[00:32:36] I'm with you on that.

[00:32:37] My only difficulty with CPO is in technology companies, there's a chief product officer.

[00:32:42] Yeah.

[00:32:43] That's my only difficulty.

[00:32:45] The other one.

[00:32:45] That's what we say.

[00:32:46] He's the other.

[00:32:47] The other one.

[00:32:48] Yeah.

[00:32:48] Yeah.

[00:32:49] I've made that.

[00:32:50] That's funny.

[00:32:50] I've made that mistake too.

[00:32:52] Talking to the CPO and I'm like, we're like halfway through the conversation, Karina.

[00:32:57] Tell me about the roadmap.

[00:32:58] Tell me about the roadmap.

[00:32:59] What are we doing next?

[00:32:59] When's the next release?

[00:33:00] They're like, I have no idea what the hell you're talking about.

[00:33:03] We were like, wrong CPO.

[00:33:04] Like, God.

[00:33:05] Oh, that was halfway through the episode.

[00:33:07] What was I thinking?

[00:33:10] I want to get your take on internal mobility.

[00:33:13] Yeah.

[00:33:14] Because when you were talking about your tenure at Visa, people probably identified you and

[00:33:20] just said, oh, she's good.

[00:33:21] Let's move her into this other bit.

[00:33:23] And again, somebody else said, okay, she's good.

[00:33:26] Or you applied to something internally and pivoted and did something different.

[00:33:31] I've said for a long time that internal mobility is very difficult.

[00:33:35] To get right.

[00:33:36] Especially from a recruiter's perspective, because now I got to fill another job.

[00:33:41] That job that I didn't have before, now I got to go fill that job.

[00:33:47] But there is a lot of people that want movement in their career.

[00:33:51] No one wants to, I can probably say that like that.

[00:33:54] No one wants to be like, okay, they just get a job and there's a ceiling.

[00:33:58] There's no growth.

[00:33:59] So where have you seen it work?

[00:34:03] Yeah.

[00:34:03] Like where the company sees that you're about to tap out and you're good, so you're talented,

[00:34:10] but sees that you need a new opportunity.

[00:34:12] Mm-hmm.

[00:34:13] Mm-hmm.

[00:34:14] The way that I try to think about this internal mobility in particular is, isn't it better

[00:34:20] to have the talent stay within your organization than to have them leave?

[00:34:25] So when I do get the pushback of, oh my gosh, this person's applied to this internal role,

[00:34:31] I need a three-month period for them before they can let them go into their new role.

[00:34:35] And I'm like, well, in three months, they're going to find another job externally.

[00:34:38] And so to keep that knowledge internal, we've done a lot of training, we've invested a lot

[00:34:43] in them.

[00:34:44] I think that's the perspective people have to have.

[00:34:46] We talk about it or I talk about it as talent hoarding.

[00:34:49] If you're hoarding talent, that person's going to leave, I guarantee you, because they don't

[00:34:53] want to be stifled.

[00:34:54] Talent hoarding to me is synonymous with bad managers.

[00:34:59] Yes.

[00:34:59] Oh, absolutely.

[00:34:59] Or you're a junior and you just don't know, you're more worried about the pull that's

[00:35:04] going to be there.

[00:35:05] And so, yeah, I think there is a maturity that comes with that as well.

[00:35:11] And what we find in some of the studies that we've done is just having increased visibility

[00:35:16] into roles that are available in the organization actually increases people's engagement in

[00:35:21] the role.

[00:35:21] I can't remember the number off my head, but it's upwards of 60%.

[00:35:24] Just having that visibility makes somebody wants to stay and they may not even move to

[00:35:29] the other role.

[00:35:30] So there's this benefit of just knowing what's available.

[00:35:34] Feeling that there's opportunity.

[00:35:37] The sentiment, yeah.

[00:35:38] Is it not?

[00:35:39] How much of the hiring men or hiring men, how much of the management, mid managers hoarding

[00:35:45] talent is due to a lack of trust in the organization that they can provide them with other talent?

[00:35:52] And I don't know what the number is.

[00:35:55] That's the replacement?

[00:35:56] Yeah, the replacement.

[00:35:57] Yeah.

[00:35:57] To be able to backfill this position or not.

[00:36:00] And I don't know what the number is, but I can guarantee that.

[00:36:04] I mean, I've been there.

[00:36:05] I can guarantee.

[00:36:07] Yeah.

[00:36:08] But then if I, and I think that's when you have more of a siloed mentality versus what's

[00:36:14] the better for the company and really trying to think bigger.

[00:36:18] That's where that can come into play.

[00:36:20] And again, I'll go back to, I think training is important and being able to have management

[00:36:24] fundamentals is a key component of, hey, like, aren't you better off with them staying

[00:36:29] than having them go?

[00:36:32] So to the question you are asking, William, I think there's an element of understanding

[00:36:38] what's available, but then who is helping you?

[00:36:41] Are you having these regular touch bases with your employee to identify?

[00:36:45] You know what?

[00:36:46] I know that over in the marketing organization, they have this role available.

[00:36:50] I know you're doing great here, but might you want to think about it and just being proactive

[00:36:54] and having that dialogue with someone.

[00:36:56] And you have to have some sort of relationship with your direct reports in order to assist

[00:37:02] with that.

[00:37:03] And you want them to feel comfortable coming to you also, if they have an interest in another

[00:37:07] role that they can say, you know what, you know, nothing against you.

[00:37:10] I just really wanted to try out this new thing.

[00:37:12] I saw this new role.

[00:37:14] And hopefully you get the support of that manager as well.

[00:37:17] So added to the complexity that let's say very few firms do internal mobility very well,

[00:37:24] add remote and hybrid to that.

[00:37:28] So what's the level of difficulty now?

[00:37:32] Let's just say a fully remote company.

[00:37:35] They were in the office.

[00:37:37] Now they're all fully remote.

[00:37:38] How hard is it to do internal mobility in that environment?

[00:37:42] I don't know if it's any harder.

[00:37:45] I think initially it was.

[00:37:46] If you would have asked me this four years ago, I'd have been like, oh my gosh,

[00:37:49] there's no way that you could do it.

[00:37:51] But I would say now we're so used to it.

[00:37:54] Most people are able to view either on their intranet site or if you go to a jobs board

[00:37:59] site, you see what openings are available.

[00:38:02] You can understand what's there.

[00:38:04] I think the difference is I'm not having the hallway conversation where, okay, I might see

[00:38:09] that person and it sparks something like, oh my gosh, they would be a really good fit

[00:38:13] for this position.

[00:38:14] I should have a dialogue with them.

[00:38:16] Maybe that's the difference in there.

[00:38:19] But I think the accessibility to being able to find things is still available.

[00:38:24] I think knowing who the employees are within your own team is still there.

[00:38:28] So I don't think much has changed from that perspective.

[00:38:32] I think some of the leaders currently that we talk to struggle with this exact situation,

[00:38:41] how to handle, how to connect with, and how to move people through the organization that

[00:38:46] are remote.

[00:38:48] I don't want to put you on the spot.

[00:38:50] But I'm kind of, maybe you will.

[00:38:51] I don't know.

[00:38:52] When I ask a question, you can always say no.

[00:38:54] Okay.

[00:38:55] Hypothetically speaking.

[00:38:56] Hypothetically speaking.

[00:39:02] Are people overcomplicating this?

[00:39:05] Is it really just common sense?

[00:39:09] Like the same as it was in the office and there's just maybe a little difference in technology

[00:39:14] or how you communicate with people?

[00:39:16] Are we overcomplicating this whole thing?

[00:39:19] I would say that maybe what's driving this, and this is why we've come out with the workforce

[00:39:24] agility for Cornerstone in our new categorization, if you will, is we understand, I think, as

[00:39:32] all of us, actually, there's a skills shortage.

[00:39:36] And we might be concerned about how are we going to make sure that we keep the skills that

[00:39:41] we have?

[00:39:41] Are we able to ensure that our workforce is being invested in?

[00:39:46] How do I even identify that I have a skill gap?

[00:39:48] And so that's where I think a lot of what we're trying to do here at Cornerstone comes

[00:39:52] into play in terms of you can create talent profiles for your organization.

[00:39:57] We can bring in some good labor data with our Skyhive acquisition in terms of here's what's

[00:40:03] going on externally.

[00:40:04] You have an overabundance of this skill in your organization.

[00:40:07] You don't have so much of this skill.

[00:40:09] Well, hey, for me as an HR practitioner, I love this.

[00:40:12] OK, here's what I might need to go focus in some time and energy.

[00:40:16] This technology is starting from the labor market data as well.

[00:40:19] This technology is starting to phase out.

[00:40:21] You're going to need to start phasing up on this.

[00:40:23] I mean, prompt engineering.

[00:40:24] Who knew?

[00:40:25] It's going to be such a big thing.

[00:40:27] We have that skill set.

[00:40:28] Where do we need to have that?

[00:40:30] So I think it's just more of it's changing more rapidly than it has been in the past.

[00:40:35] And do I have a system if I can afford a system?

[00:40:38] Granted, depending on what size of organization you are, you're going to make your decisions

[00:40:41] based upon that.

[00:40:42] But do I have a system that can somehow tell me the information that I need?

[00:40:46] And so that's why I love what we're doing.

[00:40:50] And, you know, we're using our own products internally as well.

[00:40:54] We call ourselves customer zero.

[00:40:55] And so we're testing that out on our own, like create your talent profile.

[00:40:59] Let's understand what's there.

[00:41:00] By the way, here's the different moves that you can make in your career.

[00:41:03] You don't have to stay in, you know, marketing always.

[00:41:06] You can try to venture off and do something else.

[00:41:08] Or if you want this path that goes upward, that's what you can do.

[00:41:11] So that's what I think might be more driving that, Ryan, than anything else.

[00:41:17] All right.

[00:41:18] Last question for me.

[00:41:20] With all the things that you know right now, for just all that knowledge, all that experience,

[00:41:25] and you could go back to, let's say, your senior year of college

[00:41:30] before you're looking for your first gig, what would you advise that person?

[00:41:38] What advice would you, if you could distill it, what would that advice be?

[00:41:44] Not to take HR classes.

[00:41:47] No, no.

[00:41:49] I love it.

[00:41:49] Take stats.

[00:41:50] Take stats.

[00:41:52] Take finance classes.

[00:41:53] I think two things, and my husband will kill me, but he knows this is true, is I got engaged

[00:41:59] my senior year of high school.

[00:42:00] I would say, don't get engaged.

[00:42:02] Go travel at all.

[00:42:03] Go figure it out.

[00:42:04] Is it to your husband?

[00:42:07] This is to myself.

[00:42:08] Oh, yeah.

[00:42:09] Like, go travel.

[00:42:11] Go figure it out.

[00:42:12] Like, go.

[00:42:12] And because that's something that I keep telling my own daughters who are 18 and 16 now, but

[00:42:19] I was telling them this when they were like 10 and 8.

[00:42:21] They're like, Mom, we're only in fifth grade.

[00:42:23] Why?

[00:42:23] Go travel.

[00:42:24] Go see the world.

[00:42:25] That is one thing that I would definitely tell my younger self.

[00:42:28] Maybe it's not so much the don't get engaged, but go see the world.

[00:42:31] Go travel.

[00:42:32] And then from a professional standpoint is take the risk.

[00:42:36] I think there were times that I was a little too conservative in my approach and had I taken

[00:42:41] a bigger risk, I think that things could have been different, but I'm very happy of where

[00:42:45] I ended up today.

[00:42:46] But always take that risk.

[00:42:47] Push yourself out of your comfort zone.

[00:42:49] Yeah.

[00:42:50] So, Karina, I'll end it with this.

[00:42:52] I want to reverse that question.

[00:42:54] What does young Karina tell older Karina?

[00:43:01] That she should have tried out for the Dallas Cowboys cheerleaders.

[00:43:07] I have a first cousin.

[00:43:12] That's what I wanted to do.

[00:43:13] I really wanted to do a DCC.

[00:43:16] So, never mind.

[00:43:17] I have a first cousin who was a cheerleader for three years.

[00:43:22] Did you?

[00:43:23] Oh, that's awesome.

[00:43:23] Yeah.

[00:43:23] Yeah.

[00:43:24] Yeah.

[00:43:25] It's wonderful.

[00:43:25] That's fantastic.

[00:43:26] Wonderful.

[00:43:26] But the real answer to that question, Ryan, is I'm really proud of you.

[00:43:31] I don't know that my younger self would have ever thought I would have been in this place

[00:43:36] based upon my upbringing where I was brought up and that sort of thing.

[00:43:42] And so, I think she's really proud of who I am today.

[00:43:45] Drops mic, walks off stage.

[00:43:48] Karina, thank you so much for your wisdom.

[00:43:50] Oh, thanks for having me.

[00:43:51] And it's just been wonderful.

[00:43:53] So, thanks everybody else for listening, Washington, the show.

[00:43:56] And we'll see you later.

[00:43:57] Bye.

[00:43:57] Bye.