Building Neurodiversity at Work: Challenges and Opportunities

[00:00:00] . You know what the moment was? I know you guys are gonna think it's it's crazy but it's

[00:00:06] the moment where, you know, and I haven't told a lot of people this but you know the

[00:00:11] few that know it's when I'm on the ground face down and I'm getting cuffed.

[00:00:16] Yeah, you know, it does. Yeah, that does kind of shock you. Yeah, like, you know.

[00:00:26] That's a wake up call. It sure is but it's mental health in general is a wake up call for everybody

[00:00:33] but Ryan at that moment, getting stood up and and having people around me even bringing

[00:00:40] me to to where I needed to go who were compassionate. Yeah. And I knew I needed to build the

[00:00:47] compassion or send the compassion right back at people. You know what I like about I solved everything.

[00:00:54] I solved these people's centuries and in a people's centric world, you need a people's

[00:00:58] centric solution. I saw people cloud is comprehensive human capital management solution that helps

[00:01:03] you employ, enable and empower your workforce throughout the entire employment life cycle from

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[00:01:19] high solves for more information. Go to isolvedhcm.com

[00:01:23] And this way we've picked up and Ryan Leary welcome to the practitioner's corner. Today,

[00:01:34] we have Anthony on. Hey, Ryan. Hello. And hey, Anthony. Hey. And we have Anthony on

[00:01:40] and we're going to be learning all about his story, his journey if you will. So Anthony,

[00:01:44] would you do us a favor and introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about yourself.

[00:01:48] Yeah. Well, thank you for having me. William and Ryan. I appreciate that. My name is Anthony

[00:01:53] Pizzoio. I am the vice president of CAI Nero Diverse Solutions. A couple things of what I do

[00:02:01] and who the heck I am here. I do a couple things. I'm the brand and media ambassador for CAI Nero Diverse

[00:02:07] Solutions. But I also help clients and organizations build neuro diversity and work programs. I'm sure

[00:02:14] we're going to get into what neurodiverse is a little bit. But you know, my 10 years long in

[00:02:22] Arduous to get to this point. I'm eager to share my journey with you and how it's come to helping

[00:02:30] neurodiversion individuals try to get employment, right? That's where we are today. So I'm excited

[00:02:37] to talk to you all. So little five year old Anthony's running around in school, in the school yard

[00:02:45] and you say I really like managing people and telling and you knew your career was set. Is that right?

[00:02:53] Yeah. So, you know, and I think it, uh, it, it, it does start at about five years old, right? So

[00:02:59] I come from a large family. My dad had nine brothers and sisters. My mom has three brothers, you know,

[00:03:07] we're an Italian family. So there's lots going on and a lot of diversity within my family, right?

[00:03:14] Even in the early 70s, I'm aging myself at this point. So I fit the half a century mark. But

[00:03:21] I knew something was a little bit different about me and what I wanted to do, what I wanted to be,

[00:03:28] who I was going to be. So people didn't know exactly what being neurodiversion is and really the

[00:03:35] definition is people who think differently and, you know, go about things in a different way

[00:03:41] process information differently. I am neurodiversion. I'm very open about it. I have extreme social

[00:03:49] anxiety disorder which I think is funny because I get the podcast, the media events. Yeah.

[00:03:53] Good stuff. Yeah. And I have depression. I'm super open about it. But I think way back when in the

[00:03:59] 70s, different time period, right? Everybody's kind of like, you know, there's something. Yeah.

[00:04:04] Yeah. Exactly. Like dad is in love. My dad loved my mom loved my family. But we were a sports

[00:04:13] family. That's what I did baseball basketball football all through that. But I had a lot of anxiety.

[00:04:20] And I think I'm masked that and, you know, even till a couple of years ago, I still masked all the

[00:04:25] anxiety. Like I was a different human as a child going up, growing up and then, you know, getting to

[00:04:37] junior high school and high school, I tried to say, hey, listen, you know, I'm an introvert but I'll

[00:04:43] try to be extroverted. And I saw all these forcing gunpoint. Amazingly difficult, right? So

[00:04:51] you're trying to navigate, you know, your teen years and, you know, no, who the heck are at that

[00:04:55] point. But, you know, I told my folks like, you know, hey, you know, I love sports. I do all

[00:05:02] the stuff but I think I want to go a little bit further so I did some drama and I went to college

[00:05:10] and I was in, you know, radio and television, mass media. I thought I was going to be the next,

[00:05:15] you know, broadcasts around ESPN. And I thought that was cool, right? Got my degree. And then

[00:05:22] I realized that I was going to be eating ramen noodles with that degree. So now think about it,

[00:05:30] right? So a guy who's not diagnosed understands who he is but can't really tell people and is

[00:05:37] trying to figure out his way in life. So, you know, what's the normal thing that you would do

[00:05:42] with that point? You would go into banking. You would make a change to go from radio and television.

[00:05:49] Absolutely. And you're like, all right, well, now I can eat. So that started the 20-some-odd

[00:05:56] career in finance. So understanding that, going back to kind of like managing people,

[00:06:03] though, that banking job was my first job of really managing the efforts of others.

[00:06:10] But also understanding there's people like me that weren't being assisted help, weren't having

[00:06:18] accommodations as a person who is looking from an HR perspective. I'm like, we're not allowing

[00:06:24] these people to be who they are at work. We're not giving them the tools to be successful.

[00:06:29] We're not doing a lot of things right. So there goes your 20-year journey of not being able to

[00:06:35] kind of say something, do something until, you know, and stop me when I'm long-winded here,

[00:06:41] when I get to finally a larger financial institution, JP Morgan Chase. And I'm in the

[00:06:47] the mortgage banking technology piece and chief staff there. And they go to start in autism at work.

[00:06:55] Initiative. Real quick, just for the audience. Set the stage on where are we at in years here?

[00:07:03] We in the 2000s. Yeah, so that's 2008.

[00:07:10] You're close. So you were roommates with Bernie. We get it. Yeah, exactly.

[00:07:15] We transferred funds together. So I think the banking time started in the mid-90s, right?

[00:07:26] After graduation probably 97. I was two years out of college and I'm like, yeah, not going to be

[00:07:32] able to survive doing this. So then we fast forward. I've journeyed through banking. I've tried

[00:07:38] to figure things out, not doing a good job. I've gotten married, had a child, all of those

[00:07:47] different things. And then we get to probably 2014, 15, 16 somewhere in that range where the program

[00:07:59] at the financial institutions starting to ramp up, there's people throughout the world who are like,

[00:08:06] we now recognize that people who think differently can bring business value, return on investment,

[00:08:13] profitability, all this other good stuff. But also the return on investment in that human being as well.

[00:08:19] So that program starts and I'm like, I'm all geeked about it, right? I think this is the greatest

[00:08:25] thing I'm going to step in. I'm going to help out. I'm going to start that. And it's going

[00:08:31] swimmingly. And now I'm going to get to a tougher part of this journey, which is now we're about

[00:08:39] three years into that. It's about, I don't know, 2018, 19 or so. And everything that I have in my

[00:08:49] being, I haven't told anybody really who I am, you know, family members, all that other good stuff.

[00:08:56] And it got to be a little bit too much for me. You know, anxiety was overtaking everything I do,

[00:09:04] even though I was helping people eat believe each day get employed and starting this wonderful program.

[00:09:11] You know, I decided to take my life one faithful day in December. And you know,

[00:09:20] everything was a bit heavy. I went out and this park area had my, you know,

[00:09:30] the weapon of choice at that time. And, you know, it was a great mistake because I'm still here.

[00:09:39] Right? So but what happened that day? I lost my family. I lost my wife. My son

[00:09:48] was unable to connect with him for quite a long time. That changes a person just like that.

[00:09:57] That changes the way that you think, the person that you are and how are you going to change yourself so

[00:10:04] that you can help other people be successful, succeed, fulfill their own expectations. So

[00:10:12] with that dark day comes a bunch of sunlight, right? So moving forward past that now I'm not masking.

[00:10:24] I'm able to tell people what I told you in the beginning of this podcast. I'm able to be open about it.

[00:10:32] Obviously, well, not obviously but I've reconnected with my son. You know, I've gotten married again.

[00:10:38] Like there's a lot of good things rolling through. But taking that moment and translating it into

[00:10:46] what I do today, which is finding folks who are dyslexic, dyslexic, who have dyscalcul, who are autistic,

[00:10:55] who have PTSD, finding them employment opportunities because they've struggled traditionally to get

[00:11:01] through the hiring process. It's almost to me, Willie Minrion, it's almost like an archaic process.

[00:11:09] You gotta go through 72 interviews and you gotta have a panel of 32 people asking questions.

[00:11:16] It's built for the quote-unquote norm. So when it's built for the quote-unquote norm,

[00:11:23] then those people that fall off of that chart of what is and isn't normed,

[00:11:28] normed, normal, then they don't fit that. And so it's easy for recruiters, they chart everyone else,

[00:11:35] hiring managers for them to just say, yeah, past, move on, don't even think about it, etc.

[00:11:40] Let me quick question the whole journey so far. So I had a very similar, if not the super-seminer event in 2015

[00:11:50] was undiagnosed. What back then they called manic depressive, which is bipolar or at least re-branded.

[00:11:57] I think really efficiently as bipolar. It's a newer kinder, manic depressive. So I was diagnosed

[00:12:06] as hypomania, which is 80% in mania, I think that's the arch behind you. And then when depressed,

[00:12:18] it would be suicide, suicide tendencies at least, suicide thoughts. Like I found myself driving

[00:12:25] around on a Sunday morning trying to run into people. So my own choice was going to be my vehicle.

[00:12:33] And then I couldn't do it. Well, this is how the thinking goes at that particular moment for those

[00:12:42] that are listening. I'm trying to get away with killing myself, meaning I have a life insurance policy.

[00:12:49] I want my wife to benefit, I want my wife to have money and my kids to have some money.

[00:12:54] So I'm actually trying to kill myself but not make it look like I killed myself.

[00:12:59] Right. If that makes sense. Now that it makes perfect sense.

[00:13:04] After that event then I went to a pharmacologist. I didn't really have daddy issues,

[00:13:11] mommy issues and that type of shit. I just had main brain chemistry problems. For me, not everyone has the same

[00:13:17] stuff. And so I went to a great pharmacologist here in Fort Worth and it took maybe nine months

[00:13:26] to get the medicine right, 300 milligrams of well but you shouldn't.

[00:13:31] Milligrams of Prozac, but it took forever to calibrate that. To where I don't have the high highs

[00:13:38] and I don't have the high low lows. It's a chemistry experiment. There's no doubt about that.

[00:13:45] It was a chemistry experiment. Right. So same process with me, I'm very

[00:13:52] enthused that you are able to share your story because I think...

[00:13:57] Everyone knows.

[00:13:58] Yeah. I mean that's...

[00:14:01] That's the first step in the 12-step program, right?

[00:14:04] Being able to have a problem.

[00:14:07] Right. You're able to talk about that.

[00:14:09] Both. But think about it this way as we talk about HR and all those things,

[00:14:15] all these things Ryan and William that we're talking about right now, if anybody is listening to

[00:14:20] this podcast, they know somebody somewhere who is one of the things that we've described in the

[00:14:27] past 10 minutes, right? So it hits home for absolutely everybody. Maybe not to the degree.

[00:14:35] Right. But this also leads to, well how do we help these people who weren't employed or

[00:14:42] or they were employed and they couldn't sustain a job because they didn't have all the support systems

[00:14:48] built in place, right? I wish I had those way back when too people would recognize. I might

[00:14:54] have had a different career trajectory. I mean Ryan and William, I'm glad you guys are doing what

[00:14:58] you're doing right now because it gets to a lot of folks. But we have an opportunity to keep talking

[00:15:04] about this and making the conversation not feel so stigmatized and awkward. And there's a lot

[00:15:13] of junk that goes along with having people who aren't diagnosed, get diagnosed and then fear

[00:15:22] that they can't get promoted. Right? Yeah, I'm like these folks are, they were amazing

[00:15:28] employees before. They're still going to be amazing employees after but now they might be even

[00:15:34] more amazing because you're giving them the tools to do their job. So stop there.

[00:15:40] So and this is all super fascinating to me. I'm loving this conversation. Where was that moment

[00:15:49] for you where you were able to get the courage to them? And I know it was building over time and

[00:15:55] he kind of alluded to it. What was the trigger that said? Yeah, I'm going to be me now.

[00:15:59] And I'm going to trigger probably. Yes, what is? Yeah. Sorry. Dark humor. No, no, it's all good.

[00:16:09] I think you know what the moment was. You guys are going to think it's it's crazy but

[00:16:14] it's the moment where you know and I haven't told a lot of people this but you know the few that know

[00:16:21] it's when I'm on the ground face down and I'm getting cuffed. Yeah.

[00:16:28] You know, the middle of December. Yeah, that does kind of shock you. Yeah. Yeah. Like

[00:16:35] you know, it's a wake up call. It sure is but it's mental health in general is a wake up call for

[00:16:41] everybody but Ryan at that moment getting stood up and and having people around me even bringing

[00:16:49] me to to where I needed to go. Who were compassionate? And I knew I needed to build the compassion

[00:16:56] or send the compassion right back at people who were like me. So you know, empathy is a huge

[00:17:05] determining factor of how successful organizations can be. And that that goes for, you know,

[00:17:12] your Fortune 100 fortune 500 companies but it goes for your nonprofits, goes for your public safety

[00:17:19] officials. It goes for absolutely everybody. If we get just married the two together, I think we

[00:17:25] just be a society that's way better off. We just got some work to do. So with neurodivergent

[00:17:32] talent as you see it right now, what's the bigger challenge is it's getting people that aren't

[00:17:39] familiar with neurodivergent talent to understand what's there and how to interact with it

[00:17:47] or is it a coach neurodivergent talent to be more advocate related? Like this is what I need to

[00:17:54] be successful, etc. etc. etc. etc. What do you think the bigger opportunity is or where shall we start?

[00:18:01] Yeah, so loaded question because they're both. Yeah. So let's take the person themselves right?

[00:18:10] So as we've talked about it over the past 10 years or so acceptance awareness, it's out there

[00:18:16] right people you know it's autism acceptance month in April and then there's national disability

[00:18:22] employment awareness month and I don't see anymore. Correct. Like literally it's it's ready to

[00:18:29] be out there. Now talking to to young people who are coming up who are getting through IEPs and

[00:18:36] all those different things in school to advocate for themselves that is starting to turn the corner.

[00:18:41] I can tell you that we're doing a better job and they are getting what they need to say yep

[00:18:47] I'm on the spectrum I process information information this way this is how I like my feedback

[00:18:52] literally telling people this is what they who they are and this is how they need it now let's go

[00:18:57] to the flip side of that I'm I'm Mr. ABC company we still hear and feel that there's a risk involved

[00:19:07] with bringing in neurodivergent talent even though like the like felons yeah it's like like

[00:19:14] felons it is a I mean I don't want to equate it to that so much but it's it's darn close because

[00:19:24] listen they're thinking it's a bag of whatever and I don't know it's somebody

[00:19:29] going to a bag of risk is what they're thinking of it isn't there also a fear that

[00:19:35] of the employer not hiring them for fear of discrimination and so they hire people anyway.

[00:19:41] Well that goes with masking right asking right that goes to the talent trying to not trying but

[00:19:49] passing not really advocating because you're right you're absolutely right we've and we've

[00:19:54] heard it on the show before where people are like you know what I'm not going to tell them what

[00:19:58] my needs are I think crystal told us about this I'm not going to tell them my needs are I'm not

[00:20:03] going to be different I'm not going to do that stuff so that I can get through and then once I

[00:20:07] get in then I'll figure it out yeah yeah that does happen you're right yeah and and I think

[00:20:15] um yep the discrimination piece is is probably a little bit separate right because they are

[00:20:22] people are masking and you're almost you don't know now the people that are coming in and we're

[00:20:29] starting North diversity of work programs so obviously if if it's a program per se you already

[00:20:36] know up front that the individual is neurodivergent right so you're not that part of it's kind of

[00:20:42] taken out of the equation now now where people are coming in who are not part of a program who are

[00:20:47] saying that I'm on the spectrum and I need noise canceling headphones because I have sensory issues

[00:20:53] yeah if if you either get turned down for that job or there's a statement made

[00:21:01] that is just a little off base well you didn't want to work for that company anyways because

[00:21:07] they weren't neurodiverse friendly so to speak right they didn't even know how to do what they

[00:21:13] need to do to hire the best talent um it's this is not charity this is a business case literally

[00:21:21] you are looking at people who can do a fantastic job giving given the opportunity going back to the

[00:21:28] companies I think it's about education and training and making sure that just like they do you know

[00:21:35] reg Z reg a reg all this other good stuff neurodiversity training disability training is part of that

[00:21:43] of that when you on board like that's just a piece of what needs to be done um and I think

[00:21:51] a good thing about companies though is that they have ERGs and BRGs that are you know blossoming

[00:21:56] and understanding and we talk and I specifically talked to a lot of companies who are

[00:22:01] are doing a great job of trying to bring this awareness and bring people into the workplace

[00:22:07] do you stuff do you stuff now or in the future around manager training with with neurodiversion

[00:22:17] talent because it's running I have this discussion all the time around hiring managers don't aren't

[00:22:22] hiring they're not experts in hiring right right they're bit their experts at doing their whatever

[00:22:28] their job is right um but they're like they get very little training I don't know if you know this

[00:22:33] bit but basically they get very little training thrown into the mix like okay have you open rack

[00:22:38] great I'll talk to recruit her fantastic right and now I'm supposed to interview these five candidates

[00:22:44] I don't and then then you know then you get kind of the cluster that happens with that

[00:22:52] of all the different biases that play out the like me bias the recency bias all the type stuff that

[00:22:59] plays out but my question actually is it relates to kind of something that's happened over the last

[00:23:05] five years or so with standard interviews you know you've seen this kind of uptick in conversations

[00:23:13] around we need to standardize the interview process the only thing interview process is the same

[00:23:19] everyone same questions and that'll reduce the bias and every time someone says that like a dolphin

[00:23:27] dies because I think that is because again you're doing with different talent that needs different

[00:23:35] talent things out of you both in the line of question or what you want from them but also in the

[00:23:40] question question that they want from you so yeah where are you where are you where am I at

[00:23:46] all right so so a couple things you got a lot a lot going down there so I'm gonna answer them all

[00:23:50] so the first thing I get that's some media yeah that's it's a and before you jump into that

[00:23:56] there's a one to mention this earlier but this is I think a good time I was in Walmart the other day

[00:24:02] walking through and this is William to your to your hiring manager stop laughing I see you

[00:24:07] lamb it up so you mentioned hiring managers not being hired right then they're not hiring managers

[00:24:15] or good weather that's right right right so I'm in an aisle I'm shopping and the the employee has

[00:24:22] noise canceling headphones like you had mentioned she was stocking shelves a woman had made a comment

[00:24:28] and I was asking her a question and she didn't hear or she didn't notice her okay I could see the

[00:24:32] challenge there they're just so happened to be another employee I know she was a manager or an

[00:24:37] employee co-worker but she said she needs she the woman had questioned why is she wearing headphones

[00:24:43] at work she can't hear me etc she just said well she needs them to focus but I can help you and it

[00:24:49] was a really nice situation to see so clearly they have some training going on there and I just thought

[00:24:55] you had brought that up William so and you had mentioned noise canceling headphones and I'm gonna

[00:24:59] forget and I think you'll see your answer see in how simple of a an accommodation is that how

[00:25:09] how simple is it to train somebody else to intervene if necessary to say listen the most

[00:25:16] perfect response Ryan that that person could ever have as that co-worker for that individual now

[00:25:24] that lady who was like you know what the heck was and she answered me not oh light bulb moment for

[00:25:32] her hopefully and now the next time she goes into target and she sees somebody you know not

[00:25:38] Walmart just switching department service at this point like she's gonna understand and maybe

[00:25:44] she educates somebody else so there is that kind of you know training really nice transaction

[00:25:50] both of you are always I appreciate that I doubt seriously that she'll connect those dots she'll

[00:25:56] still think because most people self-absorbed she'll go into target go this asshole wearing headphones

[00:26:02] again I understand I can only hold I can only hope there's a cum by a moment fair enough

[00:26:10] fair enough like I like to stay an optimist stay an optimist my job is to see the best in people

[00:26:17] all right so yeah the vending diagram man there's a lot here it's good we're close to

[00:26:28] making our target target shoppers and our Walmart shoppers somewhere in them yes

[00:26:34] it makes it a little bit since us yeah no way else that's where you at tomorrow where you at so

[00:26:42] you started training go right you started with training first I did so listen we definitely do have

[00:26:50] training before somebody ever sets foot in an organization button seat we make sure that the

[00:26:56] managers the colleagues the senior leaders they all have CAI newer solutions is that whole kind of

[00:27:02] perfect you know the the the coterie of trainings right are meshed in so they got that before

[00:27:09] they get in right is it perfect is everyone going to get it but we're hopeful that the major concepts

[00:27:16] are in there all right let's go to interviewing the standardized questions listen I'd love for when

[00:27:21] I described to be universal design I could could only hope I hope that that would be the case but

[00:27:27] you do need to tailor your interviews you can't take the same behavioral and cognitive set of

[00:27:34] questions and apply those to every individual first thing we should be doing is throwing out where do

[00:27:39] I see myself in five years holy cow I keep that's my least favorite question of all time I don't

[00:27:46] even know what I ate yesterday why how am I going to know what I'm going to do in a month or two the

[00:27:51] next thing about that is just think about just stick it out yeah think about how hard that is if you've

[00:27:58] got like my son has both of our sons both of our kids have so i.e.p.s this and stuff going on

[00:28:07] neurodiversion stuff going on so my youngest is expressive receptive so he can hear the question

[00:28:13] understand the question and then it just takes them a second process and think about it be reflective

[00:28:18] as answer so someone asked him a question that's you know pretty important question like that let's say

[00:28:25] what do you see yourself in five years he'll hear that he'll be processing it and he'll be

[00:28:31] thinking about it he'll want to put a thoughtful response together and they're judging how much

[00:28:36] time it takes into them you know what I'm saying I do it's delayed processing right we

[00:28:41] that's the piece it doesn't necessarily mean that your son doesn't know the answer to that

[00:28:47] no the time it gets from here to here he's put all of the words together to get that out what happens

[00:28:53] in those interviews is oh man yeah oh he doesn't know the answer to that we got to move on

[00:28:59] imagine that his panel interview oh my god it's even worse

[00:29:03] oh i would not like panel interviews is it is it is there a place for professional

[00:29:09] interviewers at a company where the hiring managers don't partake in interviews that can adjust

[00:29:16] to every person's type that they need to and then provide that feedback or the or the hiring

[00:29:23] manager can sit in and watch or watch from you know behind the glass but they're not part of

[00:29:28] the actual interview they're there for a meet and greet but there's an actual interviewer that can

[00:29:33] handle this it's uh i don't know then it's i'll wait i'll let Anthony think about it while i'm

[00:29:42] answering it for him yeah I don't think hiring managers like I don't think hiring managers will

[00:29:46] relinquish the power well sure but i mean is there a place for is that oh yeah and i'm thinking

[00:29:54] i'm thinking first responders right the police come out there's an issue with someone who has

[00:29:58] mental health don't take your gun out and shoot them they want to have right a unit come out that's

[00:30:04] trained for mental health sure that makes sense right so could we have interviewers that are able

[00:30:09] to handle this and still were successful hiring practice so how about this so the leaders of

[00:30:16] and you guys can correct me when i'm wrong but shouldn't the HR organizations and you know

[00:30:22] the recruiters and all those people be the people who are first okay and then if they're assigned

[00:30:31] vertical within that company right you know Sally's got technology and that's her you know

[00:30:38] five other recruiters got technology maybe they do need to sit in for three months until these

[00:30:44] people understand how to ask a question they'll get that feedback i mean it's just like a performance

[00:30:50] of brazil in essence right yeah there's a lot of overhead to that too so yeah think about think

[00:30:56] about what we're asking so the educated public education system has fought accommodations since

[00:31:02] the beginning of time yeah so like and think about how much money we throw at education every

[00:31:08] single year from the federal all the way state municipal um and they fought it i mean but not

[00:31:15] with the unions have fought it the teachers have fought it so now we're asking employers who by

[00:31:20] the way we're not throwing a bunch of money at they're making their own money and we're asking

[00:31:25] them to then say hey create a bunch of neurodiversion specialists within your organization

[00:31:32] now the upside for them which is and these point earlier there's a market opportunity here

[00:31:38] there's talented people that you're missing schools don't see it that way because they're just

[00:31:44] it's a cookie cutter approach they're trying to they're trying to especially public schools are

[00:31:50] trying to do the lowest common denominator they want to actually get as many people through

[00:31:54] a similar tube as possible right so you think the approach of going carbon neutral by 2050 and we

[00:32:01] have a 30 years then that we're working towards getting this done sure maybe too late but you know

[00:32:07] my point is if anyone could ever explain to me what carbon neutral actually fucking means

[00:32:12] i take that class i take that update literally just told me i can become more carbon neutral by putting

[00:32:18] my computer on battery savings mode did the Easter bunny tell you that as well

[00:32:25] we'll find out there's a rough crew in here

[00:32:32] Ainson EZ's around soon or it's all good tell us some of the work without names and clients

[00:32:36] all the time stuff tell us some of the good programs that you're doing right now

[00:32:40] yeah some of the things that you're seeing that is working

[00:32:44] yeah so let's take a step back right so we've taken baby steps probably over the past

[00:32:49] you know 10 years we've we've been doing this for a little over 10 years

[00:32:53] so getting COVID to help that or hurt that you know COVID actually helped it right so a lot more

[00:33:00] remote work made geographically the talent pool that much bigger right and now so if we had

[00:33:08] a company that we were working with in in Philly right you know that talent can now come from

[00:33:13] Idaho you know which which is fantastic obviously we would like local talent too

[00:33:20] but think about the different verticals that we're in so we're in healthcare legal

[00:33:26] finance manufacturing back office operations here's what that speaks to

[00:33:32] that speaks to the depth and the breadth of the untapped talent pool that you guys were just talking

[00:33:38] about right so we're just not you know people thought neurodiversity in general was just all IT stuff

[00:33:44] right they're like oh you know you're coder in your QA analyst and all that's good no I mean

[00:33:50] we've taken people from you know your local Wawa and put them in operations roles because

[00:33:57] they had the skill set maybe we had to kind of pull that out we figured out transferable skill sets

[00:34:03] but we're doing a deep dive into that human being and what they're good at what their passions are

[00:34:09] they might have challenges okay big deal we all have challenges I got challenges

[00:34:13] willing you got challenges Ryan we definitely know you have challenges

[00:34:17] you know so for the for the texan on the call Wawa is like half the size of f**kys

[00:34:23] but same idea yeah yes yes yes exactly I thought you were talking about the bank all right so

[00:34:32] he got it I'm like that's good that's the drink there's a Wawa drink is so yeah

[00:34:38] something actually it's not a bucky's because bucky's got like everything it's like think of like

[00:34:42] your your largest gas station convenience to eat yeah that is but okay it's so they're based on

[00:34:50] Tulsa or yeah anything real quickly is remote good for neurodivergent talent comma how many

[00:35:00] if you could put a finger in a number hmm how many neurodivergent people are there in the UDSAs

[00:35:06] oh my gosh all right so let me give you some context of why I'm asking that question

[00:35:14] there's 70 million fellins in the United States okay not so one equals the other I'm just trying to

[00:35:23] get an idea right and there could be a vendigre between fellins and neurodivergent talent

[00:35:28] all right how about that oh how many how many are diagnosed how many are undiagnosed

[00:35:33] wow yeah that's right that's a great question I was undiagnosed for 45 years yeah you're you're

[00:35:40] edging to that yeah so so let me let me give you a big one convicted as a felon

[00:35:48] and I'm thankful for that yeah I'm thankful for that sometimes long misdemeanors

[00:35:54] again definitely a rough crew on this on this podcast um I'll give you a bigger number so let's

[00:36:01] even take the United States out of it there's over a billion people who are neurodivergent in the

[00:36:07] wow right that number is increasing of course every year with advocacy with self-idee campaigns

[00:36:16] all that other that other good stuff so have we even and then you talked about remote work right

[00:36:22] so now I'm going back to the the other piece remote work was great for a subset of individuals who

[00:36:32] like to work by themselves there are other neurodivergent individuals that do

[00:36:40] love the interaction the human touch so to speak right of working and going physically to somewhere

[00:36:46] but I will tell you the bigger percentage lies in remote work was a boondoggle for most um I mean

[00:36:55] I you know I work for a company which is awesome very accommodating we are worked from anywhere

[00:37:02] company um you know eighty seven hundred folks that that work everywhere um and I think

[00:37:10] for companies who have allowed that um and we know we're trying to ran a random back in a little bit

[00:37:17] well you know it's it's remote to hybrid to hey we're all back that's never going to be I don't

[00:37:24] think we're ever going to get back to just you know bring your shoulder no we've we you me Ryan what

[00:37:33] you know neurodivergence in general have shown that we can be justice productive if not more productive

[00:37:39] doing the work with awesome paintings in artwork behind you versus uh you know a static background

[00:37:47] of a cube right you know the collaboration piece I get to a degree I think that's necessary but

[00:37:55] for most neurodivergent individuals remote work has been awesome very good very good Ryan what's

[00:38:04] your next question I'm just a I'm a listener today man I'm good this has been really I don't

[00:38:12] do you have any other questions yeah yeah go for it go for it I I'm I'm still listening I'm just

[00:38:18] soaking in your proudest moment right now so far and dealing with clients and again kind of

[00:38:25] coaching people up because I'm sure that some of that can be frustration frustrating and if they

[00:38:31] don't get it but when they do get it there's probably some pride when when the light bulbs go off

[00:38:37] and I can see a lot of people are age that didn't have kids they're going through this

[00:38:42] that they're fast track quickly to then understanding like they might not have understood it before

[00:38:48] but they understand it now so I want to know that and then I want to know your take on the

[00:38:54] relationship between just depression and anxiety because I've come to come to the realization

[00:39:02] that there's a there's a yet in the yang or checking an egg relationship between these two anxiety

[00:39:08] creates depression depression creates anxiety it like it kind of there's a circle I don't know which

[00:39:13] one comes first first but I want to get you take on that as well so yeah so what are you proud

[00:39:17] most proud of and then what do you think about the relationship between depression and anxiety yeah

[00:39:23] um I think the the cap moment is when I'm able to get a phone call or an email from a parent that

[00:39:35] said you know I didn't know what Michelle was what was she going to do when I was gone now you've

[00:39:42] given her the opportunity to not only go to work have employment make a good wage you know she's

[00:39:49] now living independently on her own an apartment she's using public transportation she's getting

[00:39:56] a drive results all these things sometimes that we take for granted of course um those are the the

[00:40:03] proud moments right we got somebody who was just hanging out and not fulfilling who they were

[00:40:11] and how they are but it doesn't change just certain lives right you you just we just talked about

[00:40:17] it changed families lives um so to see the smiles and the tears at the same time that's that's

[00:40:25] the proud piece um you know and I think um the the other piece of I am not a clinician or a

[00:40:32] diagnostician by any stretch and right and my anxiety yes works hand in hand with my depression

[00:40:41] there's no doubt I take my medicine every single day to make sure that I am is even kill as I could be

[00:40:49] I think there are days when one or the other will stop right the other um and those are days where

[00:40:58] I need to take a day for me and I need to reset myself and that's okay with C.A.I like that's why

[00:41:07] work for who I work for so C.A.I understands who I am to do this podcast they know not to bug me

[00:41:14] an hour before I do this because I have to be in a state after we're done it's going to take me

[00:41:21] another hour to reset myself and get back in but they allow me to be that and you know and I think

[00:41:28] uh you know and I know you guys you know there's there's no distinction between neurodiversity

[00:41:35] and felons and all the other good stuff you know I know we're joking about that um there's there is

[00:41:41] just there's just human beings on earth who are trying to exist in the things that we're talking

[00:41:48] about today if it helps just I know it's it's cliche as hell but if you help just one person kind of

[00:41:54] figure it out what you've done what you've needed to do this moment this life yeah we've we've

[00:42:02] joked about the neurodivergent and and fell on seal and it is it is a joke so let's make sure

[00:42:09] the audience does get that but if you think about I've done been years but I've done this business

[00:42:16] case competition in prison before so I did it for a couple of years where we go into prison

[00:42:23] you get locked in and uh can you go through a business case competition just like a like you

[00:42:28] would at a b school and these guys are presenting their you know their cases uh they've done their

[00:42:34] research they build a business plan you know the whole bit and it's really I mean it's first of all

[00:42:40] that when that door shuts and you hear that oh yeah you're you're stripped of all your you know

[00:42:45] stuff and you hear that door shut it gets real it gets real real fast but like I'm thinking about

[00:42:53] like maybe that's the next frontier is to actually intervene with talent that is either on the

[00:43:02] cusp of going to jail or even maybe hopefully interviewing before they get into trouble right

[00:43:08] to find out because because I think a lot of like one of the things I learned in doing that

[00:43:13] competition for so long was was these guys are just entrepreneurs they I mean their form of

[00:43:21] entrepreneurship was selling math however they know sales they know distribution they know

[00:43:28] make you think yeah they know all they know supply chain logistics exactly they know legit they know

[00:43:33] all the aspects of business that I do I went to a business school they know all the same thing

[00:43:39] that I do sure they just know them in a different way and they put them to a different use but what

[00:43:44] if we could actually teach them how to put that towards a good use and so it's similar but

[00:43:52] different in dealing with neurodivergence neurodivergent talent it's like I think a lot of these guys

[00:43:58] and gals in jail and again I'm not talking about the hard and criminals and the folks that do

[00:44:05] really heinous shit I'm talking about the other the folks that are really really and a lot of

[00:44:11] instances they made a wrong decision sure and it's like okay how much of that wrong decision was

[00:44:17] because they were going through some type of episode that was a very nice so in listen you're

[00:44:26] talking about channeling skills and aptitude into an acceptable format that does good and you can

[00:44:36] make the case for both you know what you're speaking about and neurodivercy right we're trying to

[00:44:43] figure out what you're good at all right we see what you're good at but now let's take that and put

[00:44:49] it where it'll work itself as tier advantage versus your disadvantage and I think there are

[00:44:57] you're gonna have although deep but but separate parallels to how that really works

[00:45:04] yeah hey this has been fantastic Ryan do you have anything

[00:45:08] I did I did have one more I know we're running up on time and we keep saying this okay so

[00:45:14] I want to go back to the IEP conversation so my one of my daughters is on an IEP but they never

[00:45:21] we just got through review it's you know 50 some pages long right yeah the teachers have been

[00:45:26] the support is actually really strong in our district and they really care they they help

[00:45:31] they help out a lot but nowhere in there and nowhere in conversation have they ever mentioned the

[00:45:38] term nor the neuro divergent they just say IEP yeah why why are they not well because they don't

[00:45:48] they they're not some of those folks on that call and I'm very familiar with them are not

[00:45:54] diagnosticians or clinicians and you don't if you do not have a formal diagnosis to present to

[00:46:00] them that will never pop up unless the parents you Ryan say hey listen you know there's some

[00:46:08] traits and behaviors and some cognitive things that are going on that you know we may want to

[00:46:15] you know think about X right whatever that maybe I'm not gonna obviously say anything here but

[00:46:22] I think if you feel as a parent that there are some things that are not being discussed

[00:46:30] you either you bring it up and you hit them head on with it or you go get that diagnosis like

[00:46:35] if you do I can't I don't want to ask you here but you know if if your child does have a diagnosis

[00:46:42] you would have obviously given given that to them so that they were changed their tune

[00:46:49] to that in speaking with you yeah just giving you even though yeah there's a lot of privacy laws

[00:46:59] yeah you they get liabilities and stuff until it's brought to them and presented to them

[00:47:05] they're we're gonna do their best but yeah that makes kind of dance around it a little bit I

[00:47:12] went in to his and Montessori of good god since he's 18 years old so this is a long time ago

[00:47:19] this is probably pre K might have been pretty school who's it man it was at Montessori

[00:47:25] and their teachers in our first parent teacher conference said hey great kid

[00:47:35] there's something going on we don't know what it is right can't put a finger on it could be

[00:47:39] attention could be autism could be anything we literally don't know he's be tested and they

[00:47:46] didn't have to do that right yeah that was a risk for them but it also gave me so much of

[00:47:54] appreciation for that type of learning environment but also those teachers we're still Michael and

[00:48:00] our still friends with them on Facebook because they intervened early on and just just said hey

[00:48:07] this kid all the kids love him and all the teachers love him but he never finishes anything

[00:48:13] he just starts something go to somewhere else starts something and he plays in the sandbox like

[00:48:18] he's he's on his own he's on his own deal and they were right he what nothing I mean once we got him

[00:48:25] diagnosed we understood kind of what was going on with the kids like okay all right and so

[00:48:31] so well you they were telling yeah they were telling you without telling you and I hope that

[00:48:36] they would be doing a little bit of those similar things and they had a coalition and they had

[00:48:42] an anti-thana coalition with them so as the teachers the administrator and a clinician while they said

[00:48:48] we're not diagnosing right we're just telling you and conveying you because we love you

[00:48:53] we're just conveying your kids great like this isn't a behavioral we don't have those problems

[00:48:59] this is he thinks differently we can tell right now so you know just go to a clinician get them

[00:49:08] actually tested and we'll start to figure it out and if the monastery is an option great if it's not

[00:49:14] then it's the then that's the best thing for Henry which again they need to have to do any of

[00:49:19] the chips right I was a check yeah yeah it wasn't funny they didn't have to do that yeah well you know

[00:49:29] Ryan you're the biggest advocate right for your child short so if you ever feel that something is

[00:49:36] just not sitting right with you beat me yeah I know you're pointed I know you are as a human being

[00:49:42] um you you you just go at it and let them either backpedal or say yeah we agree right and then once

[00:49:53] they say we agree you're like all right I got it all right we gotta get it yeah yeah that makes

[00:49:59] sense to me yeah Anthony again you've been wonderful thank you so much for Carve Atom

[00:50:06] now I appreciate it educating us we appreciate you and thanks for the audience thank for

[00:50:10] appreciate y'all