The Lens of the Modern CHRO with Special Guest Jon Lowe

[00:00:09] So welcome to a very special episode of The Source. I'm Pete Tiliakis and we are live here with Jon Lowe, the Chief People Officer of Daily Pay. We are live on the Workday Future Forward bus at the HR Tech Conference and we are like literally on the expo floor with a bus. And is this thing cool or what, Jon?

[00:00:25] I'll tell you that we've done a couple of podcasts together. I don't think we've done one on a bus yet. So this is like the new high gold standard that we have together. So everything's probably downhill from here.

[00:00:35] We're living. We're living right now. I want to crank this thing up and drive it out of here and see what kind of party we can have on the strip, but I don't know if Workday would appreciate that. But thank you so much to them. I know you guys are great partners at Daily Pay with Workday and we really appreciate their hospitality. So look, man, I think you said this might be your first HR Tech. Am I right?

[00:00:53] This is my first HR Tech.

[00:00:55] Yeah, yeah.

[00:00:55] And to be honest with you, I don't think I've spent this much time in Vegas in a long time. And so, yeah, I'm like ready to go home and see my family.

[00:01:03] Already? Okay.

[00:01:04] Yeah. It's kind of like a cruise ship. After a while, you're ready to, you're ready, you're fat enough, right? The buffet and the, and the, and the, um, the, the booze and the, and the partying. It's like, all right, I'm tired.

[00:01:13] Oh, me and Anytime Fitness have like probably a solid six weeks of like spending some solid time together.

[00:01:19] Yeah, but the good news, check out your, your, your, your miles. Cause you're probably, or your steps, you're probably hitting, you know, 10,000 easy a day. So that's a, that's a trade-off, right? So.

[00:01:26] I'm pretty efficient with Uber.

[00:01:27] Okay. All right, all right, all right. So look, man, first one, um, what, what do you, what, what's your observations? What do you see? What do you think?

[00:01:34] Oh my God. Like, you know what? I think that one of the things that we've been starved for, especially on a COVID basis is actually having events like these come back.

[00:01:42] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:01:43] It's, it's hard not to be inspired when you walk around, you see the quantity of innovation that's taking place and it's in like every single corner.

[00:01:51] It's in every single facet of like the space of HR and, and technology and that interplay between the two of them.

[00:01:57] Um, you know, I think there's a couple of key themes that came out this year. AI is like here to stay. Right. And so this idea of this new frontier of, um, capabilities that are being unlocked vis-a-vis AI is incredible.

[00:02:10] And, and, you know, it's these use cases that you don't immediately think about. Uh, and I think that that's creating a ton of upstream value for like HR leaders and HR professionals, but an equal amount of downstream value for employees.

[00:02:23] So, you know, again, there's, it's really hard not to pick up on that buzz of excitement that's taking place within these four walls right now.

[00:02:31] Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, um, you know, as an HR practitioner of the past, I said this when we were on stage a little while ago, like if I'd have had this stuff 15 years ago or whatever, you know, 20, whatever it was, I was, I was leading, uh, payroll and HR, I could have taken over the world, man.

[00:02:44] Like the things we were doing, it was like, you know, we, we were working harder than we had to, and we weren't really drawing out the athleticism of, of our team.

[00:02:52] And I, and I look at it now and I'm like, man, you can really activate the HR, uh, skillset and, and make them a value added, um, enabler of strategy versus just a processor.

[00:03:02] Right.

[00:03:02] You know what? Honestly, part of the magic, it's almost like witchcraft to be honest with you. I'm looking at some of the stuff that they're able to do, uh, and following on the analogy of athleticism.

[00:03:11] It's almost like an performance enhancing drug.

[00:03:14] Yeah.

[00:03:14] Uh, where you take a look at like this scope and span and reach.

[00:03:17] Yeah.

[00:03:18] Uh, and it's, it's, it's nuts, man. Like I just, you know, I,

[00:03:22] I'm, yeah, it's just, it's just nuts.

[00:03:24] Yeah. So look, you're, you're on the front lines, right? You're a CHRO out there helping drive and shape and, and, and grow, right. A, a, a very, uh, future forward, innovative fintech organization, right?

[00:03:37] Like what, what gets you excited, but what also keeps you up at night when it comes to that as a CHRO through that lens of the CHRO.

[00:03:43] Sure. Sure. So I think that, you know, one of the, one of the things that has been exciting or all the things I just shared, which is that, you know, we've now got this multiverse of scenarios, multiverse of technologies, multiverse of, uh, you know, ways that we can go and create value for our organizations, create strategic value, tactical value.

[00:04:01] Yep. And value to our frontline employees. Um, I think the thing that, you know, keeps me up at night is that whereas technology has been quite linear up to this point and you kind of just embrace what comes down the pipe.

[00:04:13] It's now like a, a multifaceted choose your own adventure. And so suddenly this element of trying to not screw up the next decision is not as simple as like, you got three options and which one fits the best. There's this multiverse of like scenarios. Uh, and I think it's that, that portion of like, you know, which direction and almost a necessity on the part of HR leaders to actually become really forward thinking about like, what do we do from here? How do we play transition from playing checkers to, to, to

[00:04:43] playing to chess, playing chess, to playing 3d chess? Yeah. Eight moves ahead. Right. And so, you know, I, I think that, you know, we, we represent the part of the role that we now represent is as gatekeepers to making sure that what it is that we select to go and institute isn't just what's, you know, fresh and shiny, but rather is things that create derivative value.

[00:05:03] Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. You know, one of the things that was interesting at, I was at Workday Rising last week and on the stage, I don't remember the company, but one of the CHROs said, you know,

[00:05:12] we got to understand that, that HR, HR leaders are actually business leaders who happen to sit in HR. And I thought that was really resonating. And I, and I could see, you know, a lot of folks really resonated with that. But I also think that I don't know that HR has necessarily woken up to that or leaned into that yet. And I think that's where their opportunity is, is thinking like business leaders and using this tech and saying, Hey, we're going to amplify the opportunities for the business through, through tech and our expertise. Oh, what are your thoughts on that?

[00:05:38] No, I couldn't agree more. Listen, the, if you think about any of the other disciplines that are out there, finance, engineering, accounting, you know, the legal space, none of them have gone through the level of re invention.

[00:05:53] Yeah.

[00:05:53] As at the rate that HR has. So like, if you consider the, the underpinnings of where HR was as recently as, you know, 15, 20 years ago, we were personnel, right?

[00:06:02] Like, let's just be honest about where we started, which was like bookkeeping and personnel.

[00:06:07] Yeah.

[00:06:07] I was like a glorified librarian.

[00:06:09] Right.

[00:06:09] And so this idea of like being able to carve out space and define what that space is, is so evolutionary and represents like, like this, this up into the right opportunity for us to be able to go and create value for our organizations.

[00:06:23] And that skill sets that are inherently, you know, most apropos for being, you know, a, a, a, a, a personnel person are very different.

[00:06:33] Yeah.

[00:06:33] And we're starting to go and see that as cross, you know, what the, the, the role that CHROs are playing in the field and, and the value that they're creating the, the, the conversations that they are becoming participant in.

[00:06:44] And so, you know, we are now very much a knowledge-based economy and I'll tell you that knowledge is just code for people-based economy.

[00:06:53] Right.

[00:06:53] Meaning that, you know, the structural, the, the strategic value that we can go and create and the strategic value that we can, you know, degrade if we don't make the right decisions is, is material to businesses.

[00:07:02] Yeah.

[00:07:03] No, absolutely.

[00:07:03] You know, you know, someone said earlier something that I thought was really interesting.

[00:07:06] I hadn't thought about recently was that like, what other asset, and I, and to say that people, you know, people are asset, I guess you could say in the organization, but whatever asset in the organization is actually appreciating the way people and skills are.

[00:07:18] Right.

[00:07:19] And I, that's pretty, pretty interesting.

[00:07:20] I hadn't thought about it that way.

[00:07:22] And, and, but what are your thoughts on that?

[00:07:23] Like.

[00:07:23] Yeah, no, I, I think that that's right.

[00:07:26] Um, in a lot of ways.

[00:07:27] To be invested in is.

[00:07:27] Yeah.

[00:07:28] Totally.

[00:07:29] And, and, you know, what, what's what the, the issue with this is that, um, it's a moving target, right?

[00:07:34] Like if you consider the skillsets that we needed as recently as 10 years ago.

[00:07:38] Yeah.

[00:07:39] Um, 10, 15 years ago, they're radically different.

[00:07:41] Like I would actually, um, you know, if you take any individual role within your organization, any of them.

[00:07:47] Yeah.

[00:07:47] And you ask yourself like, you know, what does this look like?

[00:07:50] And you jump in the DeLorean, you go back 10 years and you take, you put those two roles side by side, they're radically different roles.

[00:07:55] And so even things is like our, our frontline employees, the integration of technology into, um, being able to go and make sure that they're efficient to be able to go and drive.

[00:08:04] Uh, consumer value.

[00:08:05] Right.

[00:08:05] The integration of that, of technology into every single one of those roles is incredible.

[00:08:10] And so what ends up happening is that, you know, part of this is around, yeah, sure.

[00:08:14] It appreciates with time, but we need to cultivate it.

[00:08:17] It doesn't happen inherently naturally.

[00:08:20] Right.

[00:08:20] Yeah.

[00:08:20] Not, not to go and knock like the post office, but, you know, if you consider most organizations are, are growing and, um, in, in competing within, within, within competitive environments.

[00:08:31] That, that growth and that investment is a necessity.

[00:08:35] This isn't, this isn't like an optional, you can just keep on doing the same thing.

[00:08:39] It is a necessity in just about every organization to be able to go and cultivate and continue to upskill your late, your, your, your, your teams and your employees to be able to go in, you know, one, create value for your employees, create value for the organization, create value for shareholders.

[00:08:51] Yeah.

[00:08:52] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:08:52] That, that, and that's the thing, like the whole ecosystem feeds off of that, right?

[00:08:55] Everybody wins, win, win, win, win, right?

[00:08:57] Right.

[00:08:57] Customers, the business, the employee.

[00:08:59] Um, what, what do you think about, you know, you guys do a lot of work right in, in this space as daily pay you're, you're helping organizations, um, empower employees, right?

[00:09:08] With financial wellness and education around financial wellness.

[00:09:11] But what do you think, um, you know, is, is, is still kind of holding companies back from engaging with that?

[00:09:17] You know, there's, there's, there's not enough people using things like earn wage access and, and some of these integrated solutions that could really solve problems and bring a lot of value back to them.

[00:09:24] But what, what do you think is holding them back?

[00:09:26] Yeah.

[00:09:26] You know, I think a bit of it's fear.

[00:09:30] Yeah.

[00:09:30] Um, I also think that it's like one of these benefits that is just very non-standard.

[00:09:35] Yeah.

[00:09:35] So like we're, we're right in the middle of benefits renewals.

[00:09:37] We were going through and we took a look at the menu of options that we always look at counseling services, EAP, enhanced EAP programs, maybe some fitness benefits.

[00:09:47] You know, in a lot of ways, um, this idea of like actually engaging with, you know, the financial health of employees is limited to 401k, 401k match, maybe a employee stock purchase plan.

[00:10:00] And if you're a public company, uh, and so, you know, when you think about that idea of like space for evolution, that's one of those things that like for the longest time, those have been the tools that have been available.

[00:10:10] Um, one of the things that I think in makes me excited about the space of, you know, financial wellness programs for, for employees is that a lot of those tools of like, you know, um, uh, 401k match or ESOP, um, cater to a very specific group of employees, but inherently also leave out a portion of the employee growth, the employee basis.

[00:10:33] And so, you know, when you, you think about this idea that benefits are designed to cater to the needs of our employees, like part of this is around, you know, trying to get our heads out of the sand and understand the lived experiences of what.

[00:10:46] Employees and what struggles they face today.

[00:10:48] And, you know, I think that earn wage access as a starting point is like an incredible segue into it, but the things that also have me excited are being able to go and invest in financial literacy, being able to allow people just the tools to be able to go and make it.

[00:11:03] Make efficient decisions, uh, with when they work, how they work, what money do they earn and being able to go and track and glide path into the obligations that they have.

[00:11:13] Yeah.

[00:11:13] It's incredibly fraught out there.

[00:11:15] I mean, I'll tell you, you know, I, I consider myself pretty on top of my finances.

[00:11:20] I don't know what my water bill is going to be.

[00:11:22] Yeah.

[00:11:22] Like last month it was last month.

[00:11:24] It was like $200 and normally it's like $120.

[00:11:27] So I walked around my backyard.

[00:11:29] I was like, where did the swimming pool come from?

[00:11:31] Right.

[00:11:31] And so for me, you know, there's an element of liquidity that I have, so I can absorb that $80 pretty, pretty easily.

[00:11:37] But if I'm living paycheck to paycheck, not having access to those tools that allow for liquidity, like we're about to go and roll into cold season.

[00:11:45] I don't know.

[00:11:45] I don't know what my heating bill is going to be.

[00:11:47] I don't know what the weather is going to be.

[00:11:48] Yeah.

[00:11:48] Right.

[00:11:49] And so in a lot of ways, this is the reality for a large percentage of America.

[00:11:54] And so when we think about that value of benefits and like being able to meet people where they are and understand the volatility that they have, I would say that that hits creates so much more value than like me being able to go and take time off of work to go and talk to a counselor to talk about why I'm stressed out about my finances while digging myself further into a hole.

[00:12:15] Yeah.

[00:12:15] Yeah.

[00:12:16] Yeah.

[00:12:16] I mean, yeah, compounding it.

[00:12:18] Right.

[00:12:18] And the worst part is like schlepping yourself down the hall to tell HR, hey, I need to, I need, I need to advance because I got to get the alternator fix in my car.

[00:12:25] You know, I think, I think earned wage access is just another empathetic way that an employer can create flexibility for their employees, solve challenges, solve problems, and ultimately keep them at work.

[00:12:38] Right.

[00:12:38] Get them, get them focused and productive on their, on, on what they do best, not some problem that they're trying to overcome that, that, you know, is unforeseen or something they just didn't expect.

[00:12:48] You know?

[00:12:49] Yeah.

[00:12:50] It's the beauty of tech.

[00:12:50] I think that's the beauty of fintech.

[00:12:52] Right.

[00:12:52] Pete, listen, we all walk around with things that we're carrying with us.

[00:12:55] Yeah.

[00:12:55] Today, I thought I lost my wallet.

[00:12:57] Right.

[00:12:57] So the, the, the whole morning that I was at HR tech, part of my brain was at like, wow, this is like an incredible opportunity.

[00:13:04] Yeah.

[00:13:05] And in the back of my mind, I was like, just beleaguered with the fact that I don't know how I'm going to be able to go and pay for my cab ride to be able to get back to the airport.

[00:13:12] Yeah.

[00:13:12] And I don't know how I'm going to get onto the, the airplane.

[00:13:14] Right.

[00:13:14] Right.

[00:13:15] And so this idea that we carry it, like, you know, leave your baggage at home is just like, it's like an impossibility.

[00:13:22] Right.

[00:13:22] And so when you really understand the baggage that our employees carry with them and any opportunity for us to be able to like alleviate that, we should do it.

[00:13:31] Yeah.

[00:13:32] Win-win.

[00:13:32] Win-win.

[00:13:33] It's a win-win because now suddenly, you know, I'm not worrying about like how am I going to, how I'm going to pay for lunch.

[00:13:38] Very real today.

[00:13:40] Right.

[00:13:41] I, I, I, I looked around.

[00:13:42] I was like, you know, at least I have like a team of people here.

[00:13:45] And you could probably like, they know that I'm generally good for it.

[00:13:48] Right.

[00:13:48] But like, the case in point is that there's an element, like there is, there are people are multidimensional.

[00:13:55] There's, there's many facets to them and those things weigh on them.

[00:13:58] And so it's really difficult to come and do your best work if you have things that are like very clear and present concerns for you that are just beleaguering.

[00:14:06] Yeah.

[00:14:07] Agreed.

[00:14:07] Yeah.

[00:14:07] And we're all coming with different lenses, right?

[00:14:09] What we want, our expectations, our, uh, you're right.

[00:14:12] Your, our burdens, our challenges, things we're dealing with that, that maybe everybody doesn't know that we're dealing with, but they are, they are present with us always.

[00:14:18] Right.

[00:14:18] So yeah, it's a distraction.

[00:14:20] And if they're distracted from, you know, life has them distracted.

[00:14:23] How can they focus on, you know, your presentation today or whatever?

[00:14:26] You're like, how the hell am I even getting home?

[00:14:28] You know?

[00:14:29] No, no, I hear you, man.

[00:14:30] So look, I could keep going on and on.

[00:14:32] I know, I know we're getting maybe closer to time here, but, uh, tell me about 2025.

[00:14:36] What's 2025 looks like for you as a CHRO and what does it look like for daily pay?

[00:14:40] Yeah.

[00:14:40] So, I mean, 2025, I think technology is going to continue and have a heck of a ride.

[00:14:45] Yeah.

[00:14:45] Um, I think, you know, we are at the very tip of the iceberg, uh, in all the use cases that are going to be able to come down, uh, and, and create incredible value for organizations.

[00:14:56] And, you know, one of the things that I'm, is front of mind for me is like, how do I prepare my team for this?

[00:15:01] Yeah.

[00:15:02] How do I prepare my organization for this?

[00:15:04] Um, because it's not only a question of unlocking it, it's around unlocking it and gaining traction within organizations.

[00:15:11] Right.

[00:15:12] Um, specifically as it relates to our, our product.

[00:15:14] Um, I think that we'll continue to see these macroeconomic effects.

[00:15:19] Um, you know, part-time work will continue to grow.

[00:15:22] Gig economy is here to stay.

[00:15:24] Um, and people will continue to freelance.

[00:15:27] Yeah.

[00:15:27] And so more and more the necessity of having a convergence tool that recognizes the fact that the modern nature of work includes multiple income sources is here to stay.

[00:15:37] And, and for, you know, there, there's going to be a natural requirement for organizations to go and embrace it because it'll be such, it isn't necessarily.

[00:15:46] I actually view it as, it's not even going to be viewed as a benefit.

[00:15:49] It's going to be viewed as status quo.

[00:15:51] Yes.

[00:15:51] And if you're not able to go and offer something that a status quo, like those terms and conditions, like, I, you know, the analogy would be that if we had two jobs, they paid the same thing.

[00:16:02] They were technically the same.

[00:16:03] One got paid weekly.

[00:16:04] The other one got paid monthly.

[00:16:05] Yeah.

[00:16:05] A monthly one would have a real difficult time in being able to go and compete.

[00:16:09] And so I think that this is kind of the natural evolution of what that's going to look like.

[00:16:13] And I would expect that all of those macroeconomic labor factors are going to continue to go and blow.

[00:16:19] Yeah.

[00:16:20] Yeah.

[00:16:20] I agree.

[00:16:21] I agree.

[00:16:21] Yeah.

[00:16:22] You know, I, I want to tell you a story here.

[00:16:23] I was at an event recently with one of the, one of the big tech vendors and, uh, we were, um, you know, they had like this outdoor, uh, thing and it was catered.

[00:16:31] It was beautiful.

[00:16:31] And the gentleman who catered, it was his, his firm was, he actually had, uh, beaten Bobby filet.

[00:16:36] Right.

[00:16:36] So that was, you know, if you'd watched, you know, in grilling or whatever, you'll know that that's prestigious.

[00:16:40] Right.

[00:16:40] So, uh, it was interesting.

[00:16:42] I went over to, to the bar and I was going to get a drink and I was talking to the two gentlemen behind the bar, um, two young men, very nice men.

[00:16:48] And they were telling me, uh, they had shirts on with their company logo and under the logo, it had daily pay.

[00:16:54] And I got curious, of course.

[00:16:55] Right.

[00:16:56] So I started asking them, well, different questions.

[00:16:58] And it was interesting because oddly their answer always led back to, well, that's just how we get paid.

[00:17:04] They didn't know how to explain what the heck daily pay even was to them.

[00:17:08] That's just how we get paid.

[00:17:09] And I think that's really what we're talking.

[00:17:11] I think earned wage access is fundamentally the new direct deposit.

[00:17:14] I think it's the type of flexibility enabler that organizations are, well, employees are coming to work expecting to shape their experience.

[00:17:22] And I think it's just another way that an employer can show empathy, you know, empower both their employee, but also their, their payroll team to, to solve problems for their, for their organizations.

[00:17:32] And I think it's just another one of those things that, you know, you're going to need to engage in order to create that flexible environment where employees can shape an experience that that's unique to them.

[00:17:41] So I love it.

[00:17:42] I'll leave you with one thing is that everyone's like, oh man, daily pay is like something new and novel.

[00:17:47] It's actually not.

[00:17:48] So for millennia, you would go to work.

[00:17:52] You'd like, I don't know, dig trenches, pick apples, like whatever it is, build homes and you get paid on a daily basis.

[00:17:59] Right.

[00:17:59] Yeah.

[00:18:00] 60 years ago, 80 years ago, we went to this idea of direct deposit and this, you know, you get a check in the mail or whatever that might look like.

[00:18:07] And the only reason on why they couldn't pay on a daily basis was that technology could not keep up with that, that change in payment format.

[00:18:14] Yeah.

[00:18:15] We're now there.

[00:18:16] Yeah.

[00:18:16] Right.

[00:18:16] So like this idea that this isn't inherently new is actually a fallacy.

[00:18:20] This is actually how for millennia, maybe not millennia, but like in the last 2000 years when like currency existed.

[00:18:27] Right.

[00:18:28] Right.

[00:18:28] How people got paid.

[00:18:30] And again, being able to reconnect that input of like effort to output of, you know, monetary gain and like being able to get rid of all of the other complexity around it.

[00:18:40] I think it's just inherently just the way that a much more natural way for people to go and conceptualize that exchange with their employer.

[00:18:47] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:18:47] And that relationship, I'm hoping that relationship, we've got to do a better job of bringing that C-suite and frontline worker together.

[00:18:54] And I think these are the types of things that can help level the playing field and undistract people and give them the opportunity to be the best athletes at work that they are.

[00:19:02] So yeah.

[00:19:02] I dig it, man.

[00:19:03] Yeah, man.

[00:19:04] Listen, we got to do this again.

[00:19:05] Well, hopefully, I don't know if we're ever going to get these digs again, but this is amazing, man.

[00:19:08] Thank you so much to the Workday team for the hospitality, man.

[00:19:11] And thank you, John.

[00:19:11] It's always a pleasure.

[00:19:13] So good to see you.

[00:19:13] Awesome, man.