Strategies to Keep WFA from Becoming WTF with Special Guest John Lee

[00:00:09] Welcome everyone to another episode of HR & Payroll 2.0. I'm Pete Tiliakis and as always, I'm joined by the legendary Julie Fernandez. Welcome Julie.

[00:00:16] Thank you, Pete. Great to be here and we're closing out the year soon enough.

[00:00:21] Yeah, yeah. And we got a guest this week. I'm so excited. We've got the co-founder and CEO of Work From Anywhere, my good friend John Lee. Welcome, John.

[00:00:29] Good to be here, Pete and Julie. Nice to be here with both of you. Looking forward to today's episode.

[00:00:34] Yeah, likewise, man. I'm excited. I know for those that don't know, John is my go-to expert for remote work, global employment and all things related to that subject. And I think it's a very, very fitting, relevant, current, hot topic.

[00:00:51] I literally before the show Googled return to office and it was just, ah, you know, all kinds of good, bad and indifferent. So I think there's a lot here we can talk about.

[00:01:01] I'm really excited to have you because I know you're out there helping companies make this happen and you've got some great insights. So good to have you.

[00:01:08] Hey, John, I in good faith cannot start a conversation on our podcast without an answer to the burning question.

[00:01:16] How on earth did you end up in HR, HR payroll? How did you get into this space?

[00:01:22] Cool. Well, it's interesting for me. I was always passionate about people and different cultures.

[00:01:27] In fact, my first startup was an intercultural startup. And that's where I got to connect with people in travel and HR and then would work from anywhere.

[00:01:35] It's in the global mobility rewards payroll space. So I just got to get to meet this wonderful community of people in the payroll space and HR around the world.

[00:01:43] And I think for me, it's such a beautiful position to be in and so many companies that you can literally have such an impact in a really positive way on the lives of literally millions of people.

[00:01:53] So for me, I'm very, very proud to be part of the community.

[00:01:57] Yeah. Is that I assume that's what gives you here, right?

[00:02:00] Exactly. Exactly.

[00:02:01] What could be better?

[00:02:02] It's funny. You know, I, I remember I did a post, like speak my RTO, you're touching it there, your peak, but I did a post on RTO, a bit earlier, two weeks ago, and it was about the bolt RTO.

[00:02:14] And somebody responded how that you were working in a pharmaceutical company. And a couple of years ago, they asked their boss, look, could I go back and visit my grandfather back in South Africa?

[00:02:24] And they said, no, they'd only just joined the company and they more or less ruled it out.

[00:02:29] And they went and rebooked the flights a couple of months later and their grandfather died in the meantime.

[00:02:34] And I said to myself, wow, you know, as people in HR as leaders, by, by some small things that you can do that can transform people.

[00:02:42] And the other end of the scale, I've heard so many stories of people that got to spend such quality time, you know, with their grandparents, with their loved ones, with their nephews or nieces or sons or daughters, whatever it was, people all around the world.

[00:02:53] And I think those moments, you know, I suppose that Maya Angelou said people will might forget what you said, but they'll never forget how you how you made them feel.

[00:03:02] And for me, I was very close to my grandfather. So when I saw that, that post, you know, that's the kind of stuff that keeps me in this industry.

[00:03:10] Yeah, yeah. And that's the kind of crazy stuff you hear that just destroys the employee experience and erodes that trust.

[00:03:16] What do you do as an employee? You know, if you don't have maybe leave options, that's the other way that folks sometimes handle that is you have to take a leave.

[00:03:23] But you don't have any other options. You have to choose between, you know, a potential family regret that will stay with you forever and just leaving a new employment experience that you might love.

[00:03:36] Here's a question for you both. One of the things is for me, when a lot of CEOs think, and you could see this from the bold CEO, for example, when they think of work from anywhere, they think of somebody lazing about by a beach, you know, with a laptop, half working and, you know, with a margarita beside them.

[00:03:50] But I think that story was spending time with loved ones is really what I'm seeing with companies, what's happening more and more often.

[00:03:57] So having that as a benefit package, I just, for me, why is that misperception there?

[00:04:01] Yeah, agree.

[00:04:02] Well, there's probably some of the beachgoers for sure.

[00:04:05] For sure.

[00:04:06] They wreck it for many of us.

[00:04:09] Well, I think there's just there's and I want to get into this.

[00:04:12] I think there's a little bit of an ignorance and maybe even a skills gap in the leadership today that are looking at this and saying, well, that's not what got us here.

[00:04:19] And I don't know how to manage that.

[00:04:20] So let's just avoid it.

[00:04:22] And you're right.

[00:04:22] There's a there's a lot of awful marketing.

[00:04:25] I have I have whipped the EOR industry over this.

[00:04:28] They created this idea that, you know, we're all trying to work from the beach, yet I can't find a CFO or CEO on a planet that's looking to staff a beach full of people.

[00:04:37] It's all glamorous and pretty and cute and all that, but it's not reality.

[00:04:41] But there is a reality in in in remote work being incredibly effective.

[00:04:45] And I think you just touched on those intrinsic impacts on the employees experience and their lens that they're bringing to work that that work from anywhere or work from home can can provide.

[00:04:55] But look, I want to kind of talk about the angst that's out there.

[00:04:59] Right.

[00:04:59] Like I said, if you were to go right now and just Google return to office and click on the news section of Google, it is pages of bad stories, honestly,

[00:05:10] around this sort of, you know, return to offices is a Trojan horse for layoffs.

[00:05:17] It's a it's it's just control by, you know, by the leadership that doesn't understand the sort of modern workplace.

[00:05:24] It's just on and on.

[00:05:25] Right.

[00:05:25] But then also there's plenty of great stories.

[00:05:29] Spotify is a good one and others who are really having a lot of benefit from this.

[00:05:34] And it's working really well for them.

[00:05:35] But but what are you seeing, John?

[00:05:37] Like what what are kind of the good and bad out there?

[00:05:39] Yeah, well, it's for me.

[00:05:40] What I'm seeing is I would say, you know, certainly the startups back in the day, they were, you know, very aggressive on this and seeing as a way to poach talent from the bigger companies,

[00:05:49] particularly in certain roles like protecting software engineers, for example.

[00:05:53] It was a no brainer.

[00:05:54] But what we're seeing now is a lot of the other industries are starting to catch up.

[00:05:58] I would say at an enterprise level, probably half are going we're active implementing a work to money or policy with technology, whatever they need to make it happen.

[00:06:07] And maybe half are going not quite for us just yet.

[00:06:10] Or maybe they want to be a bit more conservative.

[00:06:11] Or maybe they're very heavily regulated companies like, for example, banks, where they say, look, the risk is just too great, which is also fine as well.

[00:06:17] It's not for everyone.

[00:06:19] I think that the challenge is as well, to be fair, it's also a marketing issue for the employees.

[00:06:25] Like, I don't see when people think work to money or think I can actually work to money.

[00:06:29] I'm sorry you actually can't.

[00:06:30] I don't see too many Instagram photos of a beach in North Korea, for example.

[00:06:34] We all recognize there's like logical limitations.

[00:06:37] So on the one hand, there's communication gap with CEOs, misunderstanding what it is.

[00:06:41] And there's a communication gap sometimes with employees who go on things like hush workations.

[00:06:45] And that loads of trust as well.

[00:06:47] So it's something trying to look at it holistically.

[00:06:49] How can we make this into a benefit that becomes a key part of any company's package, but do it in a way that's balanced, that's sustainable, that doesn't throw yourself off the cliff in terms of risk?

[00:07:00] Yeah.

[00:07:01] You're reminding me something, John, that I knew when I first started in the marketplace in HR and Hewitt Associates was really big, right?

[00:07:12] It was the Hewitt Exalt days and things were taking off and growing.

[00:07:15] And they were known, known enough that I actually was applying there at the time to have a sabbatical.

[00:07:21] And within the course of seven years or whatever, you could then take a year sabbatical and whatever, get further your education or do whatever you wanted to do.

[00:07:33] And I love the fact that you just mentioned in your commentary that maybe there's a benefits angle to this that should be explored.

[00:07:41] Yeah.

[00:07:42] Because there are situations, heart-wrenching situations where there's a need and an employee need, but there's also the advantage that you could create from a benefits perspective.

[00:07:53] Well, I completely, and that's exactly what we see.

[00:07:55] So a great resource for anyone here that's looking to explore benchmarks in their industry is a resource called Flexa.Careers.

[00:08:02] When you go on it, you can search for companies in your industry and see companies that have a work from your policy, how many days do they offer?

[00:08:10] What are the benchmarks?

[00:08:11] And they really put a position at very, very high as a benefit.

[00:08:14] So I think one of the things that we do see that's really disappointing at the moment, and I've gone, I couldn't tell you how many talks I've gone on.

[00:08:22] And I ask people, hands up if you have a work from your policy.

[00:08:25] Probably tends to be maybe 75% of companies actually do.

[00:08:28] But then I ask that 75% and say, how many of you actually measure the ROI of this?

[00:08:33] Crickets.

[00:08:34] Yeah.

[00:08:35] Like hardly any.

[00:08:36] Mercer did a survey.

[00:08:37] 93% of companies do not measure the ROI of their work from your policy.

[00:08:40] So what's fascinating is if you look at global mobility functions pre-pandemic, who are they looking after?

[00:08:47] It was expats.

[00:08:48] It was typically senior executives.

[00:08:49] It was less than 1% of the employee population.

[00:08:53] And now they're implementing a work from your policy.

[00:08:55] It's either payroll teams or leaders doing it or maybe global mobility or rewards.

[00:08:59] But they're launching this policy for the whole full global employee population, and they're not measuring the ROI.

[00:09:04] So, again, it does tie back to the RTO because a lot of companies have spoken to that actually are pushing RTO, but they're not measuring the data, including Amazon.

[00:09:14] So the most data-centric company in the world, and they measure data.

[00:09:18] Anything that moves, it has data measurements attached to it.

[00:09:21] But for the biggest policy is RTO, we just have blinkers on, and let's ignore the data.

[00:09:26] So I think that's at least my understanding of it.

[00:09:29] So I think there is, again, that kind of – if we at least focus on the objective data points and build something together, focusing on what's right for your company.

[00:09:36] And it's not about remote work or not, RTO or not.

[00:09:38] It's focusing on the data.

[00:09:40] What's best for us?

[00:09:41] John, when it comes to data, what a great point.

[00:09:43] I wonder if – you're talking about measuring the ROI.

[00:09:46] That's certainly important.

[00:09:47] But I wonder if part of the problem, too, is employers struggle with figuring out how do I measure productivity?

[00:09:53] Like, how can I prove – how can I create a use case that says that folks aren't sipping margaritas by the beach?

[00:09:59] And they are accomplishing their work, especially when you also hear generations saying, hey, if I can do a day's worth of work in three hours, I should just be able to get paid for a day's worth of work.

[00:10:11] Like, all of those messages are conflicting, right?

[00:10:14] And the measures are key.

[00:10:15] It is.

[00:10:16] And if you look at the measures pre-pandemic, what would we give management out of 10?

[00:10:20] Probably maybe 5 out of 10, 6 out of 10.

[00:10:22] And you throw the biggest, most complex management change in the world on top of them.

[00:10:25] They're going to struggle.

[00:10:26] Pre-pandemic, we were very much input-focused, presence in the office, how many hours, et cetera, volume.

[00:10:32] Whereas now, you know, there's a shift towards being more output-focused.

[00:10:35] And I think companies do absolutely, Judy, they struggle with that.

[00:10:38] They really do struggle with that.

[00:10:40] But if you go into the data piece of this, there are easy ways you can measure this.

[00:10:43] You can just look at the people that have taken a workation or didn't.

[00:10:46] What was the employee satisfaction?

[00:10:48] What was their productivity?

[00:10:49] What were their results, for example?

[00:10:50] You can look at retention.

[00:10:52] Like Spotify, great example.

[00:10:53] They reduced attrition by 15%.

[00:10:55] So you can measure this for that employee population that you did get this benefit and those that didn't.

[00:11:00] What are we seeing?

[00:11:01] So there are ways you can look at this in a very objective way to be able to see it very transparently.

[00:11:06] What is working or not working for you?

[00:11:09] Yeah.

[00:11:09] You know what's interesting?

[00:11:10] You go back to that Amazon story, right?

[00:11:13] And it's out there.

[00:11:13] I think it hit the market this week.

[00:11:15] They're talking about a five-day work week again.

[00:11:18] Okay, whatever.

[00:11:19] Like I get that a lot of their businesses, maybe they're frontline workers, right?

[00:11:22] The factory, or not the factory, the distribution centers and things like this.

[00:11:26] That's not going to be remote.

[00:11:28] We get that.

[00:11:28] But with employers already hamstrung with all the layers of complexity with talent, right?

[00:11:35] There's a shortage of talent, shortage of skills.

[00:11:38] You know, the skills you need are different.

[00:11:40] You know, having to go get them in different locations.

[00:11:43] There's plenty of data from all over about the fact that organizations can't necessarily find all the talent they need locally.

[00:11:51] They've got to go further.

[00:11:52] Why wouldn't you be using every means necessary to compete for that?

[00:11:56] I don't get it.

[00:11:57] And I listen to what you're saying about Amazon not measuring that, but measuring everything else.

[00:12:02] And I just hear immaturity and disrespect for that, not respecting that thing.

[00:12:06] Like, ah, who cares?

[00:12:07] It's just HR or it's whatever.

[00:12:09] But like that just tells me they don't care about that.

[00:12:12] You regularly make me groan and think, how do I walk back some of the things?

[00:12:16] Well, I mean, let's be, look, I'm well, listen, I'm well, I've well documented my opinion.

[00:12:21] And I've been saying this for probably three, four, five years, maybe.

[00:12:25] I think one of the biggest skills gap that we have on the planet are the C-suites that can't manage a hybrid workforce.

[00:12:30] And I don't get why, like, why put up with it?

[00:12:33] If a board is, I mean, and I'm not saying it's just returned to, or excuse me, it's work from home.

[00:12:38] But like, if I'm a board and I'm looking at my leadership and I'm like, you know, why are we not competing?

[00:12:43] Why are we struggling when our competitor is competing so well?

[00:12:46] Like, what are you doing?

[00:12:47] You know, and what do you need to help you get in the game here?

[00:12:49] And is that maybe the issue?

[00:12:51] Is it maybe an ignorance or a skill gap?

[00:12:54] And I don't mean ignorance in a disrespectful way.

[00:12:56] I mean, just not knowing, not understanding, not caring, right?

[00:12:59] If you don't want to measure it, you obviously don't care about it.

[00:13:02] So is that maybe the problem that these leaders just don't know how to manage a hybrid workforce?

[00:13:08] For sure.

[00:13:08] There's no doubt about it.

[00:13:10] It's a challenge because you talk to any C-suite, they'll talk about ROI until the cows come home.

[00:13:15] Yeah.

[00:13:16] But on this, consistently across the board, they don't want to look at it.

[00:13:19] They're looking the other way.

[00:13:20] There can be lots of different various motivators for that.

[00:13:23] And if you look at the case of Amazon, you know, in lots of ways, their EBITDA, their profit is probably going to get away with this because at the end of the day, they're going to be using this as a way to de-layer the organization, I suspect.

[00:13:34] And the productivity improvements they're going to get from AI deploying that, that will more than probably make up for it.

[00:13:40] So for me, they'll get away with it in the short run.

[00:13:43] I would question in the next five, 10 years, is it still going to be the case?

[00:13:47] I would bet my mortgage that they will not be still doing that in five, in 10 years.

[00:13:52] You know, and like you said, the talent, it's a global world of talent.

[00:13:56] Why would you not?

[00:13:57] You can get, you know, an engineer for 500K in San Francisco, you can get a really high quality and equally qualified not-so-wise engineer for a fraction of that in other jurisdictions.

[00:14:08] So why would you not at least explore that?

[00:14:11] Yeah.

[00:14:12] So, Don, don't you think another thing that I think just practically, like pragmatically is a challenge for some of these conversations is the idea of compensation maturity.

[00:14:23] You know, even before you start talking about work from anywhere and something that might be a temporary, you know, situation for someone, it used to be that global mobility and these conversations were reserved for like the top 1%, like you said, or less of the organization.

[00:14:38] Now, when you start talking about this broadly, you have a whole host of issues that are aggravated.

[00:14:43] Not only is it already aggravated in companies who don't maybe have a firm grasp of whether their compensation policies or ranges change, you know, from their California employees to their Ohio employees.

[00:14:56] But now you start talking about globally, you know, what happens when you're making accommodations and if you don't have a solid grasp of what your compensation structures are and how you approach compensation, it just becomes a big head scratcher.

[00:15:11] And companies throw up their hands and go, I don't want to deal with this, right?

[00:15:15] And compliance too, right?

[00:15:17] Like that's a whole other part of the soup.

[00:15:19] Completely.

[00:15:20] I mean, if you look at it, what we see is you've got like the kind of the startups and then the corporates, the bigger companies.

[00:15:27] So the startups, you know, they can have very fixed views on this to either localize it or have one, you know, one package across the world.

[00:15:34] But I think as soon as you start to scale beyond 500,000 people, you need a more sophisticated, nuanced approach.

[00:15:39] Yeah.

[00:15:40] For the large corporates, it really depends whether they're a centralized organization or a decentralized organization.

[00:15:45] But even so, I mean, if you start with, for example, compliance, look at social security alone, never mind payroll tax.

[00:15:51] Social security can vary, can be nearly like half your salary in certain countries and it can be 0% in all those.

[00:15:56] So why, exactly, why should you, you know, why should you not localize the package?

[00:16:02] Now, at the same time, you need to have a degree of equity and fairness in your pay package is absolutely vital.

[00:16:08] But I think, you know, having a one size fits all and certainly in the large companies, we don't see that.

[00:16:13] We tend to see that, you know, just even for tax reasons alone, you need to have a more nuanced approach.

[00:16:19] But I think it's a good point because, you know, in expats, they were kind of in the senior executives, they were treated an ad hoc case by case basis.

[00:16:26] You can't do that when you're rolling this out for, you know, tens of thousands of employees.

[00:16:30] Yeah.

[00:16:31] Yeah.

[00:16:31] Yeah.

[00:16:32] John, I apologize.

[00:16:33] We didn't get a chance to talk about what you guys do at work from anywhere.

[00:16:35] Maybe tell us a little bit about that.

[00:16:37] And then I'd love to talk about some of the other trends that you see kind of around the companies that are getting it right.

[00:16:42] Yeah.

[00:16:42] What are some of the commonalities there that people maybe can pick up on and learn from?

[00:16:46] Because I think you have a good point there about that small business, bigger business.

[00:16:49] I think the little guys today always have to fail much faster and they have to fail hopefully smaller because they don't have the budgets and the time,

[00:16:58] the runway to be failing big.

[00:17:00] So I think there's a dynamic there, but I'm just curious what, you know, tell us everybody what you guys do.

[00:17:05] I know, but I want to share it and then what you guys see.

[00:17:08] So for us, it kind of all started a couple of years ago where we could see people in HR were tearing their hair out because people were requesting the ability to work in a different country for a few days or weeks or months a year.

[00:17:20] And they're like, how am I going to assess all these risks?

[00:17:21] I've got payroll tax, social security, permanent establishment, immigration, right?

[00:17:26] To where I really struggle.

[00:17:28] Sometimes it's maybe a digital mud visa for a shorter term trip of less than a year.

[00:17:32] Maybe it's a structural scenario that maybe it's an employer of record or maybe it's a legal entity or an independent contractor.

[00:17:37] So it's so mindingly confusing.

[00:17:39] So we said, okay, well, could we build an algorithm that would automate this in seconds for both temporary remote work, like workations, and also structural remote work, hire from anywhere.

[00:17:50] And initially, we were the only ones really doing this in the world.

[00:17:55] And so, of course, you're a new product.

[00:17:58] Our company is going to want to be using this.

[00:17:59] We're quite nervous.

[00:18:00] But more or less in the last two years, we've onboarded Fortune 500 companies all around the world and startups and won multiple awards in the last couple of months.

[00:18:09] So I would say probably 80% of companies are coming to us primarily for the workation piece of it because that's the big need for big companies now.

[00:18:15] And maybe 20, 25% are coming for more of the hire from anywhere piece.

[00:18:19] So the hire from anywhere is like, I want to hire two engineers in Indonesia.

[00:18:22] What's the model?

[00:18:23] Is it legal entity, employer record, or contractor?

[00:18:26] And so what we tend to see is that companies are really getting so many of these requests primarily for workations from employees.

[00:18:35] And they're like, well, how do I deal with this?

[00:18:36] I can't keep going to my tax advisors all the time.

[00:18:39] Or maybe if they're conservative, I can't keep saying no.

[00:18:41] And that's where they need the technology to be able to facilitate a program like that.

[00:18:46] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:18:47] It's very cool.

[00:18:48] But what are some of the trends you guys are kind of seeing beyond what we've already talked about?

[00:18:52] Like around just with the customers that you're working with that are getting this right, if you will.

[00:18:57] The companies that are getting this right have got clear accountability and responsibility for who's in charge.

[00:19:03] And that's probably what makes this a bit of a unique problem in lots of ways.

[00:19:06] Because some of our customers, it's the payroll team, the payroll operations team.

[00:19:10] Sometimes it's HR, HR director.

[00:19:13] Sometimes it's the global mobility team.

[00:19:15] Others, it's the corporate tax team.

[00:19:17] Sometimes it's the immigration team.

[00:19:18] And what you tend to see, a general trend is nobody wants to take ownership of this.

[00:19:22] Because A, they need budgets.

[00:19:24] And they're going to get these requests.

[00:19:27] They're going to manage it.

[00:19:28] So you know what that sounds like in my experience?

[00:19:30] It ends up in payroll somehow.

[00:19:31] That's what I was just going to say.

[00:19:32] The same thing.

[00:19:33] Oh, nobody wants to do something else.

[00:19:35] Yeah, payroll.

[00:19:36] People are like, I'm gone.

[00:19:37] I'm out of here.

[00:19:38] Yeah.

[00:19:38] Oh, yeah.

[00:19:39] Yeah.

[00:19:39] Compliance?

[00:19:40] Ah!

[00:20:08] Yeah.

[00:20:10] But then, for example, this year, you've got the companies like manufacturing companies,

[00:20:14] companies like insurance companies, the kind of companies that we work with.

[00:20:17] It really varies.

[00:20:18] We have retailers like Little.

[00:20:20] We have FMCG companies like A record, for example.

[00:20:24] We have companies like NXP, makers of parts for the iPhone.

[00:20:27] We have a wide range of different companies in UK, mainly in Europe, US, Asia, Latin America.

[00:20:33] I would say as a general trend that the US and Europe are farther ahead in this in terms

[00:20:38] of being an employee.

[00:20:39] Then, I would say, followed by Asia and Latin, really don't see much of a pull from this in Africa,

[00:20:47] if I'm honest yet.

[00:20:48] We do see isolated cases.

[00:20:50] We see a lot of requests and cases within Europe and also in US, combination of interstate,

[00:20:57] but also international.

[00:20:59] What is fascinating about the US, from what we can see, is that if you look at work from

[00:21:05] anywhere as a benefit, and work from anywhere, let's define what that is.

[00:21:08] Work from anywhere is saying, look, there's 220 countries in the world.

[00:21:12] Straight away, there's 100.

[00:21:14] We're never going to be allowed because there's war going on there, sanctions, whatever it

[00:21:17] is.

[00:21:18] Too high risk.

[00:21:19] But that leaves us with maybe 100, 120 or so, 150 that we say we're willing to consider.

[00:21:24] For those countries, we're going to allow X number of days.

[00:21:28] And so what we then see happen is that in the case of the US, that's where it gets very interesting

[00:21:34] because typically, what's PTO in the US?

[00:21:36] 10, 15 days a year?

[00:21:38] Yeah.

[00:21:38] But if you can say to somebody, you know what?

[00:21:40] You can go back and visit your family or your friends in Indonesia for maybe 30 days

[00:21:46] a year.

[00:21:46] That's a very interesting employee benefit that creates a lot of stickiness, a lot of

[00:21:51] stickiness, you know?

[00:21:52] Flexibility enablers.

[00:21:53] All that you, every, the more flexibility enablers that you can offer, the better that

[00:21:57] employee is going to be able to shape their experience.

[00:22:00] Hey, John, is there a scale for this, right?

[00:22:02] Like, so, you know, even very small employers right now are recognizing not only that they

[00:22:08] might have to have somebody outside of the US that's there with them, but that they might

[00:22:13] have these situations crop up.

[00:22:14] And oftentimes solutions are really only scalable beyond a certain threshold.

[00:22:20] What does that look like?

[00:22:21] Well, yeah, it's a great question.

[00:22:24] So what it looks like is, you know, you've got three components of any well-run processes.

[00:22:29] You've got the policy.

[00:22:31] So your written policy, how you do it?

[00:22:33] And I can walk you through that.

[00:22:34] You then have the people, be it your internal people and stakeholders or external advisors

[00:22:37] and the technology piece.

[00:22:39] So we start with the policy.

[00:22:41] The policy, you need to have very clear rules around what countries are going to allow.

[00:22:45] You need to have a traffic light system.

[00:22:46] So for example, red countries, forget it.

[00:22:48] We're never going to allow it.

[00:22:49] You're going to have green countries, maybe where we've got a legal entity below a certain

[00:22:52] number of days.

[00:22:53] That's pretty much automatic as long as they've got the right to work and visa.

[00:22:56] And then you've orange countries.

[00:22:57] That's where you need to assess on a case by case.

[00:22:59] That's where you're going to need the technology piece of it.

[00:23:01] For the actual implementation of the policy, what's first and foremost is that what we tend

[00:23:06] to see best practice companies will never allow requests unless an employee has signed

[00:23:10] off in the policy, which typically says you need to check immigration visa.

[00:23:13] For example, I used to check right to work.

[00:23:15] Then it typically goes up to the manager.

[00:23:17] If the manager says, no, it's not going to work.

[00:23:19] Well, then it dies there.

[00:23:20] If it gets approved, that's where it goes into the global mobility, the HR, the payroll

[00:23:24] team.

[00:23:24] And that's typically where they'll use technology.

[00:23:27] What kind of technology do they use?

[00:23:29] Three different types.

[00:23:30] Excel, used by most, believe it or not.

[00:23:32] Because especially if they have less than 20, 30 cases, they don't need a fancy technology

[00:23:36] platform.

[00:23:37] Now, next bit is if you have a lot of cases, if you've got, let's say, more than 20,

[00:23:40] 30 or 50, you can't keep going to your tax advisors or ignoring the risk.

[00:23:44] It's a lot of work to do it.

[00:23:45] And that's where you've got a choice between, I would say, oil tankers or speedboats.

[00:23:50] Both equally.

[00:23:51] Some companies have a lot of cases, like tens of thousands of cases.

[00:23:55] Well, then maybe full automation that might work for you.

[00:23:57] It'll cost more, but it'll work.

[00:23:58] Others, it might be more of a speedboat.

[00:24:00] And again, speedboat, plug and play, it'll do exactly what you need.

[00:24:03] But then you'll have your own process engineering workflows in your own ERP system or like a

[00:24:07] workday.

[00:24:08] So that's kind of the landscape of what we tend to see for companies and how they go about it.

[00:24:12] Before we move on, I need to let you know about my friend, Mark Pfeffer and his show,

[00:24:18] People Tech.

[00:24:18] If you're looking for the latest on product development, marketing, funding, big deals

[00:24:24] happening in talent acquisition, HR, HCM, that's the show you need to listen to.

[00:24:31] Go to the Work Defined Network, search up People Tech, Mark Pfeffer.

[00:24:35] You can find them anywhere.

[00:24:39] Yeah.

[00:24:40] Yeah.

[00:24:40] Do you think that, I mean, when you think about it, is it, is this, is maybe part of

[00:24:44] the problem that this is too much of a bottoms up pull and not enough of a meet in the middle?

[00:24:49] Leadership saying, hey, we want to be strategic about our talent.

[00:24:52] We want to be more, you know, broader with how we're opening our channels.

[00:24:56] And oh, by the way, we've got this demand.

[00:24:58] So let's meet in the middle and figure this out.

[00:25:00] Or do you think it's more of the employees are still trying to pull, please let me do this.

[00:25:04] Please let me have that.

[00:25:05] Yeah.

[00:25:06] Combination of factors.

[00:25:07] On the one hand, you know, work from anywhere is basically below the hierarchy of domestic

[00:25:14] remote work.

[00:25:14] So companies figuring out what is their domestic remote work policy.

[00:25:18] That's been one of the challenges.

[00:25:19] A lot of companies haven't settled on that.

[00:25:21] So how can they settle on work from anywhere if they haven't figured out their domestic

[00:25:24] remote work policy as well?

[00:25:25] So we are seeing that's beginning.

[00:25:27] I know there's RTO coming up a lot, but the data from Nick Bloom and many others, Castle data,

[00:25:33] tells us it really hasn't changed.

[00:25:35] People, you know, there can be as many RTOs as you want, but people are still living their

[00:25:39] lives the same way as we have been living the last year and a half.

[00:25:42] But I think it does come back to it that part of it is just measuring the data.

[00:25:46] If you can see the data that we're losing people because of this, then you're at least empowered

[00:25:51] to be able to make the right decision.

[00:25:52] So asking like exit interviews, did you leave because of the lack of a work from your policy?

[00:25:56] If you don't ask it, well, then you're never going to find out.

[00:25:59] Yeah.

[00:26:00] You know, and you had a great, that great blog.

[00:26:02] I think you, I think it was titled how it work, how work from anywhere policy can drive

[00:26:06] business growth and innovation.

[00:26:07] You just recently published that.

[00:26:08] And in there, you talked about this issue.

[00:26:11] I think you brought up earlier about the ROI, people not measuring that.

[00:26:14] Do you think that some of that is that it's just too, I don't know, soft, right?

[00:26:19] Like maybe they think retention or maybe they're not even thinking retention, maybe not

[00:26:23] even thinking engagement, they're just more thinking, oh, I can't put a hard dollar value

[00:26:28] to this.

[00:26:28] So there's no ROI or, which is short-sighted, but.

[00:26:32] Yeah, it's a good question.

[00:26:33] So I think when we look at it, some people think, hold on a second, this is so immensely

[00:26:40] complex.

[00:26:40] I can't even wrap my head around it.

[00:26:42] Other times it might be their corporate tax team that says, you know, you know what?

[00:26:46] We just don't feel comfortable about the risk.

[00:26:50] But the part of the challenge there is, is that too often when people think about rolling

[00:26:55] out a work from our policy, think, oh, listen, the compliance risk is too much.

[00:26:59] But the problem is, is yeah, that's absolutely a risk, but there's also the risk of losing

[00:27:03] talent.

[00:27:04] That has a clear business cost.

[00:27:06] You know, you can never getting them, never getting them in the first place.

[00:27:09] I'd never get them.

[00:27:09] Exactly.

[00:27:10] So when we talk about risk, you know, when I'm speaking to, you know, C-suites and

[00:27:14] the leaders, apparel leaders, I say, look, measure risk holistically.

[00:27:17] I don't have the right answer whether you should do it for your company, for what you

[00:27:21] should do, work from your program, but at least measure risk holistically.

[00:27:24] If you're a bank, maybe having a very limited work from your program is perfect.

[00:27:29] But, but maybe if you're into software engineering, you know, in the software space, you need to

[00:27:33] be pushing it.

[00:27:33] And so when we talk about measuring that, you know, things like exactly like you mentioned,

[00:27:37] the job, the percentage of job offers rejected due to a lack of a policy, do we measure that?

[00:27:42] What about employee satisfaction?

[00:27:43] What about employee engagement?

[00:27:44] You know, people that did request to work for an hour trip or not.

[00:27:47] What about employee attrition?

[00:27:49] So don't just focus on the obvious compliance costs.

[00:27:52] Focus on these other costs.

[00:27:54] And they're not soft.

[00:27:55] They're hard measures we can measure that have a big impact, particularly employee attrition.

[00:28:02] Yeah, agreed.

[00:28:03] And I think there's, I mean, obviously on the front end, there's that quality of hire,

[00:28:06] speed to hire, right?

[00:28:08] And I think even on the back end, you're right.

[00:28:10] You can look at some outcomes.

[00:28:11] It would take some time, but you can gather some outcomes on the retention, the engagement,

[00:28:15] the ability to have more applicants at all, candidates at all.

[00:28:19] I think there's a boost to all of those things.

[00:28:21] So I think you're right.

[00:28:22] There's almost like a, do you almost have a scorecard, right?

[00:28:26] Model for remote work?

[00:28:28] Yeah, we absolutely do.

[00:28:31] But it's also what's really interesting is two key drivers are your industry sector and

[00:28:36] your risk appetite, your compliance risk appetite.

[00:28:38] So what we find is that in your industry sector, if your competitors are not offering a work

[00:28:43] from any risk benefit, you can still do it.

[00:28:45] It might be a massive employee benefit, but you're not going to have a huge push because

[00:28:49] at least we were to say to your employees, look, we're in a highly regulated banking industry.

[00:28:53] No one's doing it.

[00:28:54] They're all, you know, five days are into office.

[00:28:56] You know, leave me alone.

[00:28:57] But if your competitors are doing it, well, clearly, you know, you're going to be leaking

[00:29:01] talent if you don't.

[00:29:03] The other side of it is your compliance risk appetite.

[00:29:05] So within an industry sector, looking at what is your risk appetite?

[00:29:09] How do you see it?

[00:29:10] Are you conservative or do you feel like you're happy to take on more risk?

[00:29:13] That needs to come from the C-suite.

[00:29:15] That needs to come from all of the different cross-functional stakeholders coming together

[00:29:18] to go, okay, we see it as a benefit.

[00:29:20] How far are we willing to push it?

[00:29:22] For example, do you want to maybe offer a 30-day work render policy?

[00:29:24] Or maybe do you want to go up to as far as maybe an Airbnb or a Spotify?

[00:29:29] Let's say Airbnb does like 90 days work from anywhere, for example.

[00:29:32] Oh, wow.

[00:29:32] Nice.

[00:29:32] So we actually see even in the banking industry, we see some of the technology, you know, the

[00:29:37] companies like the Revoluts and whatnot, they do like up to 90 days, whereas maybe the traditional

[00:29:41] banks, you know, they don't do it at all.

[00:29:42] So it's fascinating even within an industry and it's linked to the risk appetite.

[00:29:46] Yeah.

[00:29:47] Yeah.

[00:29:48] Interesting.

[00:29:48] Do you, I mean, we talked a little bit about the cultural, I guess you could say, sort of

[00:29:55] lens around the world, but like, do you see any commonalities in the companies that are

[00:29:59] winning with this?

[00:30:00] Is it the high-tech guys, you know, companies, whatever, that are only benefiting or do you

[00:30:05] see any other characteristics?

[00:30:06] No, no, absolutely not.

[00:30:07] I mean, I would say of our clients around the world, we probably have, I don't know,

[00:30:10] maybe 20%, 20% are technology companies, but there's like 80% are not.

[00:30:15] So we find that the companies that are actually doing this well is, again, clear ownership,

[00:30:21] a very clear policy.

[00:30:23] And they're, you know, they're measuring this stuff and they have, you know, they have a

[00:30:27] clear understanding of how far they're willing to go with this.

[00:30:31] But I think what's also vital is they're communicating it, they're marketing it well.

[00:30:35] Go back to the Airbnb example, you know, literally the month after they launched their policy,

[00:30:40] their careers page went from, I think, below 500,000 visitors to, I think, 900,000.

[00:30:45] Like, it only doubled, it's nearly a million.

[00:30:46] Probably the quality of people too boosted as well.

[00:30:49] The quality of people coming in, I mean, it actually was so successful.

[00:30:52] They turned, like, they practically had a whole business unit built around us.

[00:30:55] They could see it actually, you know, what these longer term stays that remote workers

[00:30:58] are doing is massive.

[00:31:00] Now, I think, you know, one of the things I will say as well is we've also got to be honest

[00:31:04] on what exactly it is as well.

[00:31:05] So, like, digital nomads that move around country to country, sorry, that's never going

[00:31:10] to work for a company.

[00:31:11] You can employ them ad hoc as a contractor every now and again for skills, but people

[00:31:15] that are moving every month, that's, you know, that's never going to work.

[00:31:18] So, you've got to be honest with people up front.

[00:31:20] So, the companies that are doing this well have that very clear and say, look, here's

[00:31:23] what we offer.

[00:31:24] Here's how many days.

[00:31:25] And here's the approach that we take with it.

[00:31:27] So, the expectations are very clear up front.

[00:31:30] Yeah.

[00:31:30] You know, kind of going along that lines, I mean, do you think there's this sort of,

[00:31:33] and I would say this is probably more of an enterprise thing.

[00:31:36] Julie, you've probably seen this, but like, you know, look in, here we go, in my day, in

[00:31:41] my day, it was always, you know, these were expats, right?

[00:31:43] I've managed big populations of expats in my remit.

[00:31:47] And I felt like we were very reactive, you know, obviously just sort of doing whatever

[00:31:51] the, you know, HR sort of sent to us and legal had worked out as payroll, you're kind of

[00:31:56] downstream.

[00:31:57] But I think now more than ever, it's almost like, do you need, and is it just simply the

[00:32:02] global mobility team that is sort of the heart of this, that is controlling and matrix,

[00:32:06] making sure, if you will, managing, matrix managing across the organization to make sure

[00:32:12] that HR and payroll and legal and everyone is in lockstep with making this happen?

[00:32:16] Do you see that sort of evolving at all?

[00:32:18] Yeah, well, it's, we, again, we tend to see different owners and different companies'

[00:32:22] payroll have a huge role to play in this, rewards because of the employee benefit piece

[00:32:27] of this, huge role to play, global mobility, huge role to play.

[00:32:30] You know, for me, I, for me, I do, I will say, I do get frustrated very often when payroll

[00:32:37] people, rewards leaders, yeah, global mobility leaders, they say, you know what?

[00:32:43] I want a seat at the table.

[00:32:44] I want a seat at the table.

[00:32:45] Well, then fucking measure the ROI, measure the data.

[00:32:48] Yeah, yeah.

[00:32:48] Have the data so you can elevate.

[00:32:50] I go with companies, again, I've spoken to some isolated cases where, you know, we're doing

[00:32:54] RTO, and I said, well, why didn't you measure the data?

[00:32:56] You could have measured the data when you had a policy in place to show the impact of

[00:33:00] this.

[00:33:00] So for me, I'm a big believer in payroll and rewards and mobility having a role at

[00:33:05] the table.

[00:33:06] I think it's such a powerful, such a very influential role in such a positive way.

[00:33:12] Those examples I spoke about with the grandfather in South Africa, like, that's so special.

[00:33:16] But let's think about how we can measure the ROI to be able to have the data, to be able

[00:33:21] to have that seat at the table.

[00:33:22] Yeah.

[00:33:23] Julia, you poke around in the shared services world.

[00:33:25] Do you see enterprises beefing up their global mobility teams?

[00:33:28] Is it still a global mobility sort of remit in terms of owning it all around?

[00:33:33] You know, I'll tell you what, because it has always been that top 1% or less, right?

[00:33:38] Yeah, exactly.

[00:33:38] It really isn't the biggest nut to solve for.

[00:33:41] It ends up being, you know, a really discreet number of folks that are touching it.

[00:33:45] You're touching it with a few key vendors that are handling tax or, you know, or the mobility

[00:33:50] process itself.

[00:33:50] And so it's not usually the place that's ripest for opportunity.

[00:33:55] But I do wonder, when I think about shared services, like, certainly contact center reps

[00:34:01] and the contact center role is evolving incredibly, not only because maybe there are more virtual,

[00:34:06] you know, location.

[00:34:07] You can do virtual call centers as opposed to a physical building, but also because AI is moving

[00:34:13] in and taking, you know, potentially.

[00:34:15] So now can I replace people with how much, right?

[00:34:18] Of AI generated activity.

[00:34:20] And it is, you know, something that maybe you can log in and sign in from anywhere.

[00:34:25] So it does make me think, like, maybe contact centers as an industry might be something, you

[00:34:31] know, that has those types of characteristics to it.

[00:34:35] That's what I see the most.

[00:34:36] And then I know this probably won't be, you know, too much of a conversation because, because

[00:34:41] John, you're in the sticky wicket of the global bit of it.

[00:34:43] But I work with a number of domestic companies.

[00:34:46] And quite honestly, the issue is the same.

[00:34:49] If you're just talking to a domestic company that's trying to deal with, you know, we're an

[00:34:53] Ohio hospital and we have somebody that, you know, we want to hire somebody in California

[00:34:58] or in another state and there's, you know, less complexity, sure.

[00:35:03] But there's still the same challenges and the same issues that don't have policies and

[00:35:07] don't have compensation structures.

[00:35:10] Yeah, no, you're absolutely right.

[00:35:11] I mean, in the US, it's a, it's a, it's very much a probably say 60, 65% of the time, maybe

[00:35:17] 70% of the time is domestic.

[00:35:18] And maybe 30, 35% varies by company.

[00:35:21] It's a, it's international.

[00:35:22] It really depends.

[00:35:23] Yeah.

[00:35:23] Yeah.

[00:35:24] You know, Julie, there, there's a major, I would say there's a major risk to, you know,

[00:35:30] there's, there's a lot of folks who have allowed remote work who have, and we saw this during

[00:35:35] the pandemic, for example, the, the, the camper van folks, right?

[00:35:38] My cousin was one of them sold his, sold his home and his family.

[00:35:41] They tooled around in a big RV, like rock stars and saw the whole country.

[00:35:44] But, but that's happening, right?

[00:35:46] People are working remote and doing things in America, in our 50 States without Nexus, without

[00:35:51] telling their employers there, Hey, I'm, I'm in Wyoming.

[00:35:53] This month or I'm in California.

[00:35:55] And the client is only in New York, Ohio and Pennsylvania or whatever, or company.

[00:36:01] That's an issue.

[00:36:01] That's a massive risk.

[00:36:02] I think, I think Topia did some good research on that a while back.

[00:36:05] Um, and there was a lot of, a significant number of people working that were working remote that

[00:36:12] their employers did not actually know where they were and they're not meeting the compliance

[00:36:16] requirements.

[00:36:17] Yeah.

[00:36:17] Two key things to mention on that.

[00:36:19] And you mentioned New York, you mentioned, for example, AI, the New York state, we actually

[00:36:23] published an article on this recently.

[00:36:24] They have reduced the number of tax auditors by 5%, but they increased the tax audit letters by 50%.

[00:36:33] Again, using AI to do basically risk targeting and then send automated letters out.

[00:36:39] So I think that's one aspect of it.

[00:36:42] But the other component of it is like also the digitalization of borders.

[00:36:45] We have the S down in the US, but also we're seeing that also in Europe as well.

[00:36:48] And so, you know, we were thinking like with the pandemic, it was, uh, you know, obviously,

[00:36:53] you know, businesses getting more digitalized.

[00:36:55] We see commerce go through the roof, et cetera.

[00:36:56] We see remote work.

[00:36:57] Yeah, well, guess what?

[00:36:58] The tax authorities, their immigration authorities, they're well as well.

[00:37:02] So that's, that's something that we do see.

[00:37:04] And we also see that probably in the first year after the pandemic, you know, there was

[00:37:08] a lot of hush locations, people not telling their bosses.

[00:37:11] We, we have seen, you know, a lot of companies go, hold on a second.

[00:37:14] We know we really can't have, we really can't have this.

[00:37:16] It's a crackdown.

[00:37:18] I think tech is going to catch up to that.

[00:37:20] I don't know.

[00:37:21] Don't, don't quote me on this, but I remember reading recently, there was this, I want to

[00:37:24] say it was somewhere in Europe.

[00:37:26] The government's using like a Google maps type of a view or aerial, maybe aerial photo.

[00:37:31] I don't know to find out who has pools in their yards so they can tax.

[00:37:35] Have you seen that?

[00:37:36] That's the one we actually mentioned that in our article as well.

[00:37:38] The French tax authorities, they basically did a partnership, but I think IBM and Google

[00:37:43] Google maps and they took images of all of people's basically houses and those that had

[00:37:48] pools that weren't declared, they were able to then send tax.

[00:37:50] I mean, this was a couple of years ago.

[00:37:52] So you said, if they're doing that now, a couple of years ago, what are they going to

[00:37:55] be doing now?

[00:37:56] How far off, right?

[00:37:57] I mean, cause there's a lot of independent contractors that are probably doing things

[00:38:01] historically that didn't, you know, I worked for the big four and they were all over that,

[00:38:05] right?

[00:38:05] Like at Deloitte, you had to, you know, I got a W4 or whatever for two from every state,

[00:38:11] whatever that is for each state.

[00:38:12] Uh, and, and that was, you know, that was a big part of year end was us, you know, declaring

[00:38:17] all of our, all of our earnings and going through our taxes.

[00:38:19] If you look at remote work, you have the temporary and the structural pieces of it for the temporary

[00:38:23] remote work, like locations.

[00:38:24] We see this huge battle going on with digital nomad visas, these countries that are seeing

[00:38:29] for tourism revenue.

[00:38:30] Wow.

[00:38:30] This is a big opportunity.

[00:38:32] And the countries that are seeing people leave them, they're like, hold on a second.

[00:38:35] We want to stay grabbing onto that.

[00:38:36] And so trying to create an attachment in some cases, uh, where we can see, for example, in

[00:38:41] France recently, you know, they're looking at going closer to the American model of citizenship,

[00:38:46] basically, where there's a risk of, uh, of, uh, even if you leave, for example, being able

[00:38:50] to, uh, being stuck with paying higher taxes.

[00:38:52] And then on the other hand, you have the likes of employers of record and legislation waiting

[00:38:56] to catch up on those as well, being very diverse.

[00:38:58] So there's a, there is definitely a sense that the governments have a way to go to catch

[00:39:03] up on how we're working today.

[00:39:06] Yeah.

[00:39:06] Well, and companies too, as you mentioned very plainly, employees don't disclose, you

[00:39:11] know, a lot of times, you know, where they are.

[00:39:14] I think it would be challenging for my employer to know where I am in what state, just because

[00:39:20] I'm at a conference that they know.

[00:39:22] That's a tricky one.

[00:39:23] That's a, that's a very tricky one.

[00:39:24] What we do see is companies.

[00:39:25] Um, sometimes we see some cases where they do anonymous VPN pings because they can't

[00:39:29] due to privacy, track it down to an individual person, but they also have responsibility to

[00:39:33] make sure people are safe duty of care and also the property is safe.

[00:39:37] So sometimes you see companies that do a ping and all of a sudden, what the hell?

[00:39:40] Somebody's working in Russia.

[00:39:41] Well, I, that wasn't, that's not supposed to be, you know, things like that, for example.

[00:39:44] So, but it is a tricky balancing act.

[00:39:46] And I think the legislation around this is, uh, it's very, very tricky.

[00:39:49] I think companies have to make sure they, uh, you know, they, they get the right advice

[00:39:52] to, to, to do it in the right way now, but it's tricky to just, just thinking about all

[00:39:56] the, uh, engagement you do around the global EOR, global employer of record space.

[00:40:00] Like, but what are you seeing in that way?

[00:40:02] Do you think that's meeting the challenge?

[00:40:03] I mean, I think that's been a huge vehicle to help.

[00:40:06] Um, obviously I'm seeing more of the VMS solutions start to step up and create, you

[00:40:10] know, better technology.

[00:40:11] We talked about Workday Venly helping with, you know, direct sourcing, but like, what

[00:40:14] do you, what are you seeing in that way, man?

[00:40:15] Do you think the, any insights you're, you're kind of gleaning?

[00:40:18] It was really interesting.

[00:40:19] It started off very much with startups a couple of years ago, primarily with contractors and

[00:40:24] then the actual employer records adjusting to have that employer record model within

[00:40:28] them, for example.

[00:40:29] Um, and I think corporates in general have still got a ways to catch up.

[00:40:34] We can see that a lot of the employers of record are staffing up their global mobility,

[00:40:38] um, you know, account, uh, and sales team members basically to try and go after that corporate

[00:40:42] space.

[00:40:43] Uh, but in general, we find that with corporates, the bigger corporates, they tend to have very

[00:40:47] strong kind of, kind of talent hubs and they're happy using that for now.

[00:40:53] But at the same time for me, I'm trying as much as I can to educate the large corporates

[00:40:57] to go, look, having an employer of record there in your back pocket, it's a helpful

[00:41:01] tool for some companies.

[00:41:02] It's not the right cultural fit, but for some it's very helpful.

[00:41:05] And a good example, there was a, an insurance, a global insurance company.

[00:41:09] Uh, I was speaking with only in the last two weeks and I'd been talking to them for years.

[00:41:13] I said, look, you've got to at least consider this.

[00:41:15] Of course, then deciding which is the right employer of record for you is the next question

[00:41:19] can be very different.

[00:41:20] It's not a variation.

[00:41:21] But I spoke to him a year ago and I said, you've got to look at this.

[00:41:23] I said, no, no, no, we're, we're, we're happy not looking at this.

[00:41:26] And, and then I spoke to him a couple of weeks ago.

[00:41:28] I said, well, how did you get on since?

[00:41:29] I said, what do you say that?

[00:41:30] I had an executive of a, of a, one of our big divisions and he said, if I can't fucking

[00:41:35] hire this person, it's going to cost us a hundred million dollars.

[00:41:38] Get it done.

[00:41:39] So that's one way to just crack open the nuts.

[00:41:43] I love it.

[00:41:43] I love it, man.

[00:41:44] I love it.

[00:41:44] It's done two weeks later, I bet.

[00:41:46] Exactly.

[00:41:47] Yeah.

[00:41:47] Exactly.

[00:41:48] Exactly.

[00:41:48] Yeah.

[00:41:49] So John, just to kind of maybe round this out, man, any, uh, any sort of, um, inside

[00:41:54] sauce that you would share as far as, um, you know, maybe the hidden things that

[00:41:59] people don't realize about get, you know, getting, getting this to be, to be an enabler

[00:42:02] to strategy versus maybe just being a burden, uh, that we didn't mention yet.

[00:42:06] Yeah.

[00:42:07] No, I think the big one that becomes so clear is that last year for me, it was about advocating

[00:42:12] for here's how you put together a policy.

[00:42:14] We put some, you know, taught leadership and white papers and resources up on that.

[00:42:17] Whereas this year, very much shifting to focus on the data, look at the ROI.

[00:42:22] And for me, it's not about me saying you need to do work money or not.

[00:42:26] It's no, it's looking at the data to elevate the role of payroll.

[00:42:29] Of rewards of global mobility.

[00:42:30] So you can find out what's best and have those conversations with C-suite and not being afraid

[00:42:34] to confront them with the data.

[00:42:36] It's uncomfortable sometimes, but I think looking at the data is where we can then start to

[00:42:40] really build on, okay, well, based on the data, what is it we're going to do that's

[00:42:43] right by our employees and right for our company?

[00:42:46] Yeah.

[00:42:46] If somebody asks you like, what are the, give me a handful of things and just rattle it

[00:42:50] off.

[00:42:50] What kind of data should I be capturing?

[00:42:52] I know you've mentioned one or two throughout, but like, what would you tell them?

[00:42:56] Yeah.

[00:42:56] The most important one is attrition and making sure when exit interviews, you capture the

[00:43:00] right reason codes for your company to be able to capture why people are leaving.

[00:43:04] The amount of people I speak to that say, we're losing a lot of talent because people are

[00:43:09] saying we don't work on our policy.

[00:43:10] I said, well, do you measure?

[00:43:11] No, we don't.

[00:43:11] So any company you mentioned, you can speak to like hundreds more, they'll take the same

[00:43:16] thing in the vast majority of cases.

[00:43:18] But then if you do actually have a policy, equally measure it.

[00:43:21] Measure it to see do you need to push it more?

[00:43:23] Maybe do you need to be more conservative?

[00:43:25] You need to pull it back.

[00:43:26] It all comes back to that data piece of it.

[00:43:28] Yeah.

[00:43:28] And there's no reason not to be using data today.

[00:43:30] I mean, this is, we are in the data age.

[00:43:33] It's the most valuable thing, you know, on the planet.

[00:43:35] You can look at our stock market, right?

[00:43:36] It's not oil anymore.

[00:43:37] No reason to struggle, right?

[00:43:38] There's tools, there's help.

[00:43:39] And yeah.

[00:43:40] So what's, look, Johnny, you know, I love you, man.

[00:43:43] I could keep talking, but what's 2025 look for work from anywhere?

[00:43:47] And how do we get in touch with you guys if folks are looking for help?

[00:43:50] Yeah.

[00:43:51] So the website is wfa.team.

[00:43:54] So you can reach us there, basically.

[00:43:56] Feel free to reach out, connect me on LinkedIn.

[00:43:57] If you have any questions, always happy to help or share best practices or benchmarks.

[00:44:02] I think to get in touch, also your local Mercer account manager, they're all around the

[00:44:07] world.

[00:44:07] We partnership with Mercer.

[00:44:08] They've been fantastic partners for us over the last year.

[00:44:11] And for us, you know, I think this year, obviously we've gotten three global technology awards

[00:44:16] in the last couple of months.

[00:44:18] Yeah, congrats, man.

[00:44:18] Which is fantastic.

[00:44:19] But I think that and all of the feedback, all the testimonials, it gives us such an opportunity

[00:44:24] to really shake up the world of benefits and work from anywhere the next year.

[00:44:28] So we're excited.

[00:44:29] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:44:30] It's awesome, man.

[00:44:31] I'm excited for you.

[00:44:31] And look, man, let's stay in touch.

[00:44:34] Let's maybe do an update next year.

[00:44:35] I always appreciate speaking with you, man.

[00:44:37] I learn something every time.

[00:44:38] Thank you so much.

[00:44:39] It was great.

[00:44:39] Thanks so much, Julian.

[00:44:40] Really appreciate it.

[00:44:41] Thank you so much.

[00:44:42] Yeah, likewise.

[00:44:43] Take care, everyone.

[00:44:44] Bye.