Payroll Is Coming to the C-Suite with Special Guest Ciaran Strachan

[00:00:00] Welcome everyone to another episode of HR amp, Payroll 2.0 I'm Pete Tilly-Akkus and as

[00:00:12] always I'm joined by the legendary Julie Fernandez. Welcome Julie. Thanks so much Pete just

[00:00:17] back from a conference we'll talk about at a later time but yeah. Yes I did to be here.

[00:00:20] Yeah welcome it is yes a special episode we have guests this week and I'm so so excited

[00:00:26] about I can't wait to talk about this. We have Kieran Strong from the Australian Workforce

[00:00:32] Compliance Council he's the managing director and CEO and he and I got connected over

[00:00:37] the Payroll profession, Confidence Survey and I'm so excited about what they're doing

[00:00:41] I had to have him on so welcome Kieran great to have you. Thank you Pete thank you Julie

[00:00:45] Pleasure to be here. Yeah likewise it is so cool to have you look I want to start off with

[00:00:50] our question we ask all of our guests Julie you love this one. How did you land in the

[00:00:55] world of payroll Kieran and what in the world keeps you here? Actually I'll be a little bit

[00:00:59] of it anomaly Pete and Julie I actually joined the Air Force 2 do payroll so. Wow hey number

[00:01:06] one first one look at that look at that I was in the Marines and did and worked in the HR

[00:01:10] data payroll as well so yeah I think I was statistical anomaly I'm one of the less people

[00:01:16] that actually joined to do it. That's so cool. That's a profession and then funny enough

[00:01:20] right after I joined to do payroll they got rid of payroll in the Air Force. Of course

[00:01:24] right so you still did it but you didn't officially exist. That's great. It's a it's a common

[00:01:30] tragic story and then from there around 2005 I left still stayed into fence got into fraud

[00:01:36] control. So that's the Australian Department of Defense of course and then left. Yeah

[00:01:42] that and work private sector for 10 years naturally gravitating towards initiative that I've

[00:01:46] been working on for years now and we're public with in October last year. Yeah wow well

[00:01:51] congrats that's amazing thank you for your service too by the way I think that's you know

[00:01:55] it was a great part of my career and starting it in the HR world which I didn't know I was

[00:02:00] doing in a shared service center in the Marine Corps auditing pay entitlement records

[00:02:04] that affected payroll. I never thought it would take me where I am so hey it's cool

[00:02:10] to meet another person like that. Yeah I think one of the best thing that I think Australia

[00:02:15] is slowly picking up from your service men and women needs to thank their service men and women

[00:02:18] so yeah not that going around for sure. I know we need to take care of our veterans for sure.

[00:02:23] This might be our two peas in the pod. I know right this is so cool. This is so cool. So look

[00:02:29] I want to jump into the AWCC. I want to I want to I got to be honest with you I was completely

[00:02:34] blind to you guys I did not know what you were doing and payroll brought us together

[00:02:38] here we are but tell me about the Australian workforce compliance council say that three times

[00:02:44] fast tell me about it and I'm and you told me before the show there's a story about the

[00:02:48] origin of the name so I want to hear that too but tell me what you guys do and how it came

[00:02:52] about. Yeah certainly perhaps I might just start with the origin of the name because it

[00:02:56] kind of tells the story in where we are and what we do now. So AWCC I want you say that

[00:03:01] ten times you get the acronym down patent AWCC everyone on the board we haven't practiced

[00:03:05] the name when we finalized it on the board we went through about four or five different

[00:03:09] iterations and like a lot of the initiatives that will be releasing over the next two years

[00:03:14] the name was the last thing we came up with kind of started with what is it we're trying

[00:03:18] to do. What's the framework we need to enable it and how do we execute it was kind of a

[00:03:23] methodology that we came up with during our research and adapted and evolved and changed

[00:03:28] the name itself so there's two parts to the name there's the obvious Australian so we'll

[00:03:32] just drop that off because obviously we want to kind of denote where we sit in the world

[00:03:38] the next party's workforce compliance now how we came up with that was the initiative

[00:03:42] and it's one of the capabilities that we're putting out was we realised that the whole

[00:03:46] challenge we have in Australia in and around how we pay people and the legal instruments

[00:03:51] behind that is it's an unsupported framework so what I mean by that is when it was the

[00:03:55] latest iteration was done in 2010 which was huge and we can talk about that later when

[00:04:00] we get to the complexity of our parallels in Australia. It was unsupported as in there

[00:04:05] was no professional framework or standards or guidance implemented by all of nine governments

[00:04:12] in Australia participated in that that made it a fatal scheme so the other thing we then

[00:04:16] did too is we went what are our oppositional what's our competition so accountants, HR

[00:04:21] and lawyers are our three primary competitors and in the description that we have when

[00:04:27] we did our analysis and what they're doing versus what payroll does is that they have

[00:04:31] what we call partitioned into payroll so partitioning think an example I use is Napoleon

[00:04:37] during you know his expansion was Poland didn't exist on a map but it was still there

[00:04:42] you still have Polish people that were still around right they still spoke Polish that's

[00:04:47] currently payroll in Australia for many different reasons so we went well what can we do to

[00:04:51] establish the primary focus of what payroll does and we went workforce compliance that's

[00:04:57] the generic banner that we want to put it under and sit it in the C-suite say all C-suite

[00:05:02] have a risk management framework we went how do we carve out a section there for people

[00:05:08] legislation compliance and we haven't started with terms like what do we call a people compliance

[00:05:13] well problem with that was that you gravitate towards very quickly to work health and safety

[00:05:16] what if we call it workplace compliance well again goes to work health and safety workforce

[00:05:21] is more generic and under that will have subsets including safety compliance and of course

[00:05:26] payroll compliance so that was how we came up with the name workforce compliance we were terrific

[00:05:30] we've got a great name and it was just originally called workforce compliance Australia and then

[00:05:35] we realized that it's one thing to come up with the set of standards but it's another thing to

[00:05:39] execute them we need we need a workforce and we are yeah okay it's going to have to be payroll

[00:05:46] and that's when we found a lot of and I kind of went back into payroll so there's a lot of

[00:05:52] payroll people do you tell the payroll is not a job or a profession you should become an

[00:05:55] accountant or HR well that that was me yeah partly HR sorry I partly did an accounting degree

[00:06:01] realize that that's not payroll yeah yeah I've got two to HR degrees now actually both post

[00:06:08] graduate including industrial relations realized again that's not payroll and landed into okay well

[00:06:14] now we need to create an association for payroll because we technically don't have one in Australia

[00:06:19] until we were created and we can talk more about what that actually is in the eyes of the government

[00:06:24] later and then we went all we need to bring this other industry along that's just as heavily

[00:06:29] involved in 90% of the issues are overlapped which is employee tech and that's the term we've

[00:06:33] created and governments agreed with that so employee tech is any kind of software that sits

[00:06:39] in and around executing payroll yeah okay to save on bureaucracy we're standing them up as divisions

[00:06:45] but for all intents and purposes they're their own associations they have their own purpose their

[00:06:48] own vision so on and so forth and then the third one will stand up will be the the standards division

[00:06:55] of course and then anything else to help execute that yeah so yeah yeah that's a lot wow I mean

[00:07:02] that's amazing so it's so are you saying then that the AWCC was fundamentally formed around

[00:07:07] and for payroll then is that what is that what you're saying that's that's where we sing to

[00:07:11] around yeah and the research of course all started and you would have heard some international

[00:07:15] waves recently with our labor government getting in so for US viewers and anyone else it's gone

[00:07:21] Australian labor government is like it democrats so they just came back in after being out for 10 years

[00:07:29] and they're catching up on all the workers types reforms that they've been wanting to do for

[00:07:34] the past 10 years now and that they've criminalized wage theft so of course for those who don't

[00:07:39] know the history behind wage theft we actually adopted it from a US union movement yeah I think

[00:07:43] you're right about this yeah got into it around 2007 we're defining an annual risk management

[00:07:50] framework for the C-suite that we'll be working on over the next couple of months as wage fraud and

[00:07:56] then we're categorising that into other sub risk categories which payroll I think we'll love

[00:08:00] including underpayments over payments and maladministration and we're going to be using an

[00:08:06] association that I love is is ACFI certified fraud examiners association it's both out of the US of course

[00:08:13] we're going to be utilizing a similar risk management framework for that and pulling in multiple

[00:08:17] data sources so the idea behind that is it's one thing to create these professions formerly like

[00:08:22] payroll but how do you impound them and that's what the standards frameworks design to do certification

[00:08:27] all these other great things we're going to work on over the next couple of years so are you the

[00:08:31] founder as well I mean is this all your brainsharter did you have a did you have a team or I

[00:08:35] definitely had it yeah we've definitely had a had a team I guess it started with me and then I

[00:08:40] kind of like the mafia I pulled out the people in and they're like they can't get out so that's

[00:08:46] right that's payroll that's payroll it pulls me back in exactly yeah so this is so this is

[00:08:53] so amazing though I mean I mean certainly the payroll needs this around the world right there's

[00:08:58] there's just not been this progress of focus I guess and I want to get into more because I know

[00:09:03] some of the things that you guys are doing but like talk to me a little bit about like what makes

[00:09:08] payroll unique in Australia because I have to be honest with you my perception of Australian

[00:09:13] payroll is that it's a bit more forward in terms of digital practices than say some of the other

[00:09:18] countries I think you guys have had some mandated expedited out a little bit or do you still feel

[00:09:23] you guys are a little behind maybe other countries and what's the challenge primarily

[00:09:28] that's a that's a huge question that we could

[00:09:32] so I'll be as brief as I can yeah when you initially fly that with me a couple of weeks ago I thought

[00:09:37] okay what I want to do is go and look at the US market some of the other international markets yeah

[00:09:42] perhaps the best way I can answer your question is focus on our points of difference

[00:09:46] so this is how deep and dark my research went I don't know if you guys are aware of this

[00:09:51] and all you listen is but the founding of Australia with their initial six colonies was a result of

[00:09:56] the US American revolution I did not know that I did not know that guaranteed no one knows that

[00:10:03] I did not know that and so what happened then was the after the American revolution was the

[00:10:11] English government said well let's explain to an expand I'm going to use consulting to

[00:10:15] me yeah other known countries around but we won't do any deals with natives and we're just

[00:10:21] going to go straight in take over and set up colonies now around about 18 the mid 1830s to 50s

[00:10:28] was of course the start of industrial revolution and in a modern context that's where payroll comes

[00:10:32] from an Australia is no different what happened basically in China squeezing nearly 200 years of

[00:10:38] history between the 1850s to now is we had a much stronger labor or democratic equivalent

[00:10:47] type presents in our colonies so we had eight colonies originally and six opted into former

[00:10:53] Australia the two that didn't was New Zealand and Papua New Guinea they decided to shave off and

[00:10:59] become their own countries and then we stood up a couple of territories so now we have nine

[00:11:03] governments one federal two territories which is the ACT and six colonies and that federation happened

[00:11:10] in 1901 now unlike the tax system the tax system went federal in World War II because we were

[00:11:15] to fund a war and about a quarter of our men at the time are in uniform I'm more or another

[00:11:20] interesting that never happened with the workplace relations or industrial relations side of the

[00:11:24] house you had state-based or former colonial agreements right up until a whole bunch of

[00:11:30] consolidation happened around the 90s and then further consolidation under our liberal governments

[00:11:35] from 96 to 2009 which was so our liberals like your Republican tight party so they're right wing

[00:11:42] and then the nearly 4,000 state-based mod what they call awards so how you pay people the rates

[00:11:50] got rolled up so there was 97% reduction to 122 what they call modern awards in 2010 so that was

[00:11:57] the first on the whole lot got chucked together and then just to give a good point of comparison

[00:12:01] what also got brought into that was an arbitration scheme for anyone that's unfairly dismissed so as

[00:12:07] you know data are aware and I subscribed to a couple of US lawyers and plumber lawyers it's typical

[00:12:12] I think the stats about 33% of US employment agreements have an arbitration call so for those who

[00:12:18] don't know what arbitration is it's simply an appointed third party dispute person but of course

[00:12:24] if your employer is paying for that yeah I'm expect to you know generally a fair representation

[00:12:29] of the stats back that up all in Australia we don't have that it's a it's a federally government

[00:12:34] run system also brought under the same thing so to answer your question Pete what I would say is

[00:12:39] that as a result of a very heavy left presence of industrial relations we have more workers rights

[00:12:47] a bit a pretty expensive safety net and of course what comes with that is more law

[00:12:52] and in turn regulations so until you understand that context it can be very easy to look at a

[00:12:58] Australian go wow you've got a lot of stuff here that makes payroll hard well I don't kind

[00:13:02] of go the other way and say well we actually have a lot of labor laws that need to be operationalised

[00:13:07] yeah yeah interesting what what what we're actually trying to do and this is where AWCC comes into it

[00:13:13] is that system when it was brought in was brought in by so the prime minister we had at the time

[00:13:18] that we had two labour prime ministers to start off with Kevin Rudd but then we went on to

[00:13:21] Julian Gillard now Julian Gillard brought this in and she's an ex-class section litigation lawyer

[00:13:27] so this whole framework was brought in and when as far as lawyers and it's what we call a

[00:13:31] tripartate system so its government left and right and that's it whereas opposed to you go to

[00:13:37] the Australian taxation office and remember it's a much older grander institution because that

[00:13:41] was federalised around World War II they also have operational or what we call professional

[00:13:46] peak bodies come to the party and they build trust with them and work on behind the scenes which

[00:13:52] we already have a great director by the name of Dean Windsor she's representing us on one of those

[00:13:55] committees there right now and the relationship is very different so what what that portfolio does

[00:14:02] is they don't just simply arbitrate between unions and employer groups which is how the fair work

[00:14:07] system is set up they also pull in the operational peak bodies all the accounting bodies

[00:14:11] the war bodies as well as the so institute account merrexers the direct spotty and say how do we

[00:14:15] operationalise this policy and is there anything else we should consider the fair work site doesn't

[00:14:20] do that and that's what basically trying to fix with our initiative yeah that's fantastic man I

[00:14:25] mean it's a lot of complexity right I mean at least it sounds complex Julian I don't know how much

[00:14:29] there Australia people you've done but it's yeah a lot of nuances there that make it make it

[00:14:35] well you know very very you know navigationally complicated right and I think that but my

[00:14:41] understanding is that you guys are really forward with your tech though is that and the digitisation

[00:14:46] of how you communicate payroll to the government is that is that true am I wrong about that yeah there's

[00:14:50] been a lot of very good initiatives that have come up recently and I think we're going to have a

[00:14:54] lot of the other countries in that way yeah we're we're I think we're quite lucky that we've got

[00:14:58] reciprocal government departments that are open to working with industry so for instance the fair

[00:15:03] work commission which is the they have the delegation from the federal government to

[00:15:08] very modern awards that's those 122 awards now that's yeah something we're involved with right now

[00:15:14] the first time ever that a non-left or right group spending involved and we're in there actively

[00:15:18] changing things right now thanks to again another director called Jen McKinney she's done a terrific

[00:15:23] job in there in the past couple of weeks now the fair work commission has a back-end what we call

[00:15:28] API which helps tech integrate and update those awards I'm probably butchering exactly what it

[00:15:34] does here and tech guys are probably spas and outright now while I butcher what they're doing

[00:15:39] the Treasury also has something other various initiatives as well and they have consultation groups

[00:15:45] that help but the tech side I mean you can have from so for Australia has about 13.5 million

[00:15:50] employees that support the entire economy about 25 million people and 43% of those employees

[00:15:57] are serviced have a me what we call small to micro businesses and have a roundabout

[00:16:02] a main average of nine employees well that market in its entirety was created in around payroll

[00:16:09] and the calculators sit on the side of that including shift time and attendance system and so on

[00:16:14] all 2012 yeah and our markets grow exponentially and we have unicorns now and some of them are

[00:16:19] pushed into the US oh yeah yeah I think it's totally fascinating and the rule of the government

[00:16:25] you know is just I think definitely unique I'm sure it makes things complex what

[00:16:31] what I think I hear most around Australian payroll has to do with the superannuation

[00:16:36] which is just an operational complexity but a way I think it's really interesting is that none of

[00:16:42] all of this movement and all of the activity that's happening in Australia has garnered the same

[00:16:46] attention as like Brazil's e-social and maybe that's because Brazil's e-social has been you know like

[00:16:53] difficult not easily implemented and it seems like you know it feels to me like this is all

[00:16:59] flying a little bit under the you know the news radar and stuff because it's you know maybe

[00:17:04] it's that smooth right well some of it something initiatives and that's a very good point

[00:17:09] Julie I think you know until you start looking internationally you realize we actually

[00:17:13] we are in some guards ahead of the game for instance some dn were tibley on something called

[00:17:19] single touch payroll and a single touch payroll she would be the best person to speak about it

[00:17:24] but basically that was an initiative with industry and Australian taxation office to measure

[00:17:30] what we call the tax gap in addition to it does several other things too but ensures that everyone's

[00:17:36] you know taxation is measured accordingly and it was so highly effective that the ATO leased out

[00:17:44] their head guy so Australian tax office or at least the other head guy to implement the same thing

[00:17:48] in the in Canada right now and of course if you start looking at the tax gap that means you can then

[00:17:53] start to estimate what is the under payment gap what is potentially people not being paid they should

[00:17:59] be paid and are they even employed uh quickly classified so with the whole wage theft argument

[00:18:04] in Australia it's been heavily focused on cases class action litigation of course we've got a

[00:18:10] terrific regulator here called the Fair Work on Butsman and there are annual reports where they've

[00:18:14] been going after the big businesses so the top ten ASX listed entities through to your bottom

[00:18:20] ones however what's gone under the radar is the impact single touch payroll had on that by working

[00:18:25] out labor hire companies were incorrectly classifying contractors and so on and so forth so there's

[00:18:32] been so many different angles from so many different departments that yes it's definitely challenging

[00:18:36] to keep up keep up what I'll just say on the on the complex thing here we had to work out certain

[00:18:41] terminology that we want the payroll profession to start utilizing one is we don't want to go into

[00:18:46] the trap of using the term complex the reason being is in Australia the term complex is a poison

[00:18:50] cellarce and that's because it was politicized a few years ago with a former coalition government

[00:18:57] where they tried to basically undermine the entire Fair Work system so 150 years of industrial

[00:19:03] relations framework to push you a high case the high court case that went through and the whole

[00:19:10] political narrative was the systems too complex now what we've decided to do instead was get

[00:19:15] was take a fresh look at what payroll does compare it with other professions and what we

[00:19:20] projecting steadies that it's a highly sophisticated profession right so what I'd encourage payroll

[00:19:26] to do is start looking at that looking at what you do compare it to lawyers and accountants we've

[00:19:30] actually found that when we combined five degrees under end postgraduate from lies and accountants

[00:19:36] payroll operationalisers all of those combined and there's still gaps so it's the most sophisticated

[00:19:42] profession working in this space is what I would love to hear from everyone yeah I love that too

[00:19:47] and I'm glad you kind of came to that point because I want to talk about just this this concept that

[00:19:51] payroll has been so less than for so long less than in so many ways right in the way it's viewed

[00:19:57] in the way it's treated and I know you guys are fighting to make this an official profession and

[00:20:02] I don't know if anybody in any country is doing that I know there's some it's been some work by

[00:20:07] the UK to do some things around degree programs which I know you guys are aiming to do as well

[00:20:11] but just making it a profession and recognizing it like you're saying on par with a certified

[00:20:17] professional right a lawyer a CPA something like that they are doing there's kind of straddling

[00:20:23] a little bit of both of those worlds and so I love that so tell me I tell us about that I love to

[00:20:27] see here what you guys are kind of envisioning and how you're going to get there to that like how do

[00:20:31] you do it yeah yeah certainly um so we worked out the map last year and even the costings on how

[00:20:37] to do it yeah so generally this is the way um degrees work in Australia we're based on an international

[00:20:44] agreement so even some of how I'm going to structure what we're doing here is the way Scotland

[00:20:48] does it Ireland does it parts of England I'm not too sure about the US if it's on so generally

[00:20:54] you have an undergraduate degree and then you have a postgraduate degree now in Australia an undergraduate

[00:20:58] degree is what we call an industry preparation degree so if you want to become a lawyer or a top

[00:21:02] what we call a skill level one profession generally you go and do your undergraduate degree

[00:21:06] it doesn't mean you're actually technically qualified to do your job just means you've done a

[00:21:10] condensed industry degree and there's two types there's what we call an associate degree

[00:21:16] and then you've got a bachelor's degree now the associate degree is just a part of bachelor's

[00:21:19] what we call nested then for you to actually become qualified in your profession including a

[00:21:24] specialisation that's your postgraduate degree now I know because I looked at a lot of them in the US

[00:21:30] and how they do their certifications and there are great cheaper alternative run by associations

[00:21:35] rather than your postgraduate family in Australia they're generally one and the same so for instance

[00:21:40] CPA Australia it is a six unit postgraduate certification but it is ranked as the same level

[00:21:48] as a master's degree right so if you want to go do your MBA you can RPL in those six units

[00:21:53] if you want to become a chartered accountant in Australia none of them write their calls because

[00:21:58] to become a CA you've got to have two degrees so you've got to have your undergraduate degree they

[00:22:03] approve so it can't just be any undergraduate degree it's got to be university and dual specialist

[00:22:08] and then you do there as a part of the certification you do there graduate diploma in chartered

[00:22:13] accounting so it's embedded in a part of that certification now associations in Australia can

[00:22:18] register with a regulator called TXA and TXA is the regulator for all universities in Australia

[00:22:24] so the top what we found is the top certifications that have legal instruments behind them

[00:22:31] all registered their own institutes and design their own degrees so we reached that conclusion

[00:22:35] worked out what the cost is worked out the funding model and then we're going to go out to

[00:22:38] market and ask everyone a donate and we're going to create what's called a grad dip in labor law

[00:22:44] with three specializations so a grad dip is two thirds of a master's degree so in Australia

[00:22:50] a master's degree is 12 units and then it has what we call two nested degrees so I think like

[00:22:54] Russian dials right so your grad dip is eight of those 12 units and a grads cert is four of

[00:23:01] those 12 units so typically you have what you call your capstone unit around the eighth unit that

[00:23:06] brings it all together so what we've agreed to do is the first four units will be exactly the same

[00:23:11] for all three strings the second four units will be designed for each string so the three

[00:23:18] qualifications looking at the first one's payroll so the first four units will be for will be a

[00:23:24] graded certain labor law covering dust relations which is the biggest capability gap I see right now

[00:23:30] for payroll or probably biggest of two they just don't understand a lot of prints what I talked

[00:23:34] about in the first party a segment here the history the importance left and right the political

[00:23:39] aspects what what does the Fairwick Commission do versus the Fairwick on budget so on and so

[00:23:44] forth then the next one will be just be federal law units versus states so whilst we had this

[00:23:50] amalgamation like I said in 2010 we also had a lot of legal instruments that didn't

[00:23:54] federalize and the biggest one of course is long service leave so Julie where you stated earlier

[00:23:59] that taxation and superinuation pose a lot of challenges for payroll and so when we do the survey

[00:24:05] Debik is headache is always long service leave because you've got a different one in every state

[00:24:09] territory now the payroll unit's second part will then go into taxation super and so on the other

[00:24:16] string we're actually going to do for lawyers the reason being is something free yeah there's only three

[00:24:22] high-scree to degrees in Australia for labor lawyers and they're in Metro Sydney and Melbourne only

[00:24:28] and now those law societies have certifications and only those law societies so although we have

[00:24:34] a total of 18 law societies and state baths only three of them have a certification for a

[00:24:41] workplace relations or industrial relations specialist depends so Victoria calls it the

[00:24:46] Lawrence student Victoria calls it a workplace relation specialist Nesif Wales which is the

[00:24:50] biggest state of all it's about a 33% of the economies in Nesif Wales causing a

[00:24:54] industrialization so on so we went to them looked at theirs and said well what if we create a

[00:24:58] great circuit partner would you create it and I said yeah we'd love to we went to those three

[00:25:01] unions they all said no we're not going online so okay terrific good luck if you're a lawyer outside

[00:25:06] of Metro Sydney or Melbourne so why don't we just create another four units and in that way we have

[00:25:10] the lawyers and payroll sitting in the first half together so they're realising the payroll is

[00:25:18] the and this is the new definition we're gonna have for payroll it's operational application of

[00:25:22] labour and related legislation so the operational labour law and other law experts I love that

[00:25:28] I love that that is it like I'm glad you're applying for that that's a great one I love it

[00:25:33] I'm glad you're doing because that is a significant point of difference and Jen can attest to that

[00:25:38] with the modern awards review she's been going through right now where she's up against labour

[00:25:43] lawyers right long term labour lawyers working for unions and employer groups and it's fascinating

[00:25:48] reading the transcripts because you can see the argument drop off very quickly because she has

[00:25:51] operational context and she has wider legal understanding all right so the third one we're going

[00:25:57] to have two is industrial relations practitioners so they're people who do unfair dismissal

[00:26:01] angels work in our own EAs and so on and those are units are out there but they're just not

[00:26:06] consolidating to workplace investigations which has a lower burden of proof because of civil it's

[00:26:11] not criminal and mediation and conciliation is actually a unit and the Fair Work Commission

[00:26:16] gets its conciliators to do so we're just going to put that unity there so that's it so that's what

[00:26:20] we're going to do it online and the growth thing about an association is because we're a legally

[00:26:23] structured nonprofit on average we charge about 40% of a university degree yeah wow

[00:26:30] wow interesting this is really fascinating I think it's such a great step in the right direction

[00:26:35] for for the I mean just all the just having a structure and something up career path and a guide

[00:26:40] and like a or not even a career path I guess an education path to a career and something

[00:26:46] on the level I love the wording you guys used around the competent and regulated operational

[00:26:50] labor law experts instead of payroll right yeah and that's exactly the role definition I mean

[00:26:56] the role definition maybe not the name but yeah and then we came up with that was what do they

[00:27:01] actually do yeah there's some pictorial formats we can show you there now research and just to go

[00:27:07] back to your early point about about a structure career that's the first thing that I wanted to

[00:27:11] tackle was we need a graduate pipeline we need to be able to compete yes with lawyers and

[00:27:17] accountants why should they yeah go through and do the university degrees and then suddenly falling

[00:27:22] to payroll exactly and that's one of the top answers we get to that question we ask you in

[00:27:26] the beginning is and no offense I love it that people we all kind of found our way to peer on

[00:27:30] fellow under it and fell in love with it hopefully but we shouldn't be attracting people by accident

[00:27:36] we should be attracting the best and the brightest who are like hey this is a great career path

[00:27:40] look what you know look what this can be there's respect here right now there's no respect for it

[00:27:45] right although it's holding up the building in a lot of ways and so I love that you're bringing

[00:27:48] you know at least some credibility to this education to this and actually a path where someone

[00:27:53] you know I had a discussion with a big four consulting partner who said how do you recruit for

[00:27:58] payroll today how do you convince a college kid to come be in payroll right and and I don't know

[00:28:04] I don't know how you do that right how do we ever do it I guess we fell into it so yeah so I

[00:28:08] want to raise both of my hands and say I know Karen you mentioned that you have some some graphics

[00:28:14] like I really love I want to see the infographic they kind of puts all of these pieces together

[00:28:20] and shows you know what that what that looks like and what those kind of pavings are and I'm also

[00:28:27] I just can't help but think as you start to talk about all of the knowledge that's necessary

[00:28:32] we know payroll lovers of payroll that there's a lot to be said for the compliance and so for

[00:28:39] I can't help but think you know payroll has been treated as very administrative role forever

[00:28:45] and not the highest paid administrative role right and when you start to show what you know

[00:28:50] what all is involved and what types of knowledge are required to really do this profession well

[00:28:55] you know it and you're tying it to lawyers and accountants you gotta believe that at some point in

[00:29:01] time that that will start to have an impact on the pay in the profession yeah yeah um if I can

[00:29:08] if I can come back to Julie with two both your points so you can look at that diagram right now it's

[00:29:13] on our website and if you go into surveys it's in the survey which was our initial submission to

[00:29:19] the government to get and we actually got payroll manager created but we couldn't rescue payroll

[00:29:24] itself out we've got its name changed from Clark to Officer but it's still technically considered

[00:29:28] a specialisation of bookkeeping which is a low skilled trade so what are you gonna do is go to

[00:29:32] our website go to surveys and you'll see one on there called ANZ co ANZ SCO payroll survey and you'll

[00:29:38] see submissions and the survey itself is just all infographic and you'll see a great diagram there

[00:29:43] I can't remember which page it is but it's all circles and you can see where I've got one with

[00:29:47] off to the left it shows what accountants study and what legislation they operationalize and then

[00:29:53] off to the top right it's got what a tax law does and off to the top sorry off to the right bottom

[00:29:58] what a labour law he does because they then all let us swim in each other's lane they're only allowed

[00:30:02] to do one or the other and then you've got payroll big bat circle over the whole lot yeah exactly

[00:30:09] yeah I love it I love it that made that made the okay so much easier apparently just showing

[00:30:14] that that one picture that's beautiful I will make sure that we put this into the into the links

[00:30:20] so people can get a get grab that and see that and I'll try to share it as well after this

[00:30:25] before the episode comes out to make sure people know we recorded it but so one of the things

[00:30:29] I want to ask you Kieran and this was this caught my eye when I saw this in when we were trading notes

[00:30:34] about what you guys are doing you mentioned that your going your goal is also to work with payroll

[00:30:41] practitioners and the government jointly to develop system configuration standards tell me what

[00:30:46] that means and what are you envision and do you see wanting or needing to engage some of the

[00:30:52] major players in the industry that develop some of these solutions especially in your country

[00:30:58] yeah definitely so when we did our research as to what were the capability gaps in the country so

[00:31:04] what was the supporting framework that we need to operationalize fair work and of course the other

[00:31:09] so we call it the nine governments framework so the fair work is the federal one the other rate

[00:31:14] to see other states territories long service leave being one but there's also other instruments

[00:31:18] didn't come up with it that's where we came down to we need the practitioner which is payroll and

[00:31:22] we need the employee tech so there'll be another division has its own president which will be

[00:31:26] DM Windsor and think industry lobbying body but we're not doing the lobby we're doing the representation

[00:31:35] on both the formulation with government as well as the liaison now what government loves

[00:31:40] is can we just have one point of contact rather dealing with so for instance I've heard a

[00:31:45] couple of times that the Australian taxation offer has 400 registered products for payroll taxation

[00:31:51] now so what we'll do is we'll go out to market and everyone that's in the employee tech field can

[00:31:56] join so employee tech is just anything in and around both HR and payroll so for instance

[00:32:03] we've got a really good board at the moment we've got a couple of employee tech guys on there

[00:32:08] so the president is Ivan Brewer he's got a great system that connects into a lot of your small

[00:32:12] to medium-end platforms for shift time and attendance to help with calculating rosters and so on

[00:32:19] and then you've got Damien Gooden his system which is HR Central so they're primarily

[00:32:23] interested in the employment warehouse and management side of it they don't do payroll but

[00:32:28] they'll connect into payroll so they're our first two members for that division so any one of

[00:32:34] these anyone at all so whether you're SAP any of these products that Julie and yourself would know

[00:32:39] they can all join and then being a properly structured and recognised peak body which means we have

[00:32:45] to be able to have to have a constitution we have to be legally structured on the profit and so on

[00:32:50] government that says we recognise you as representing those members welcome to the inner circle for

[00:32:56] developing policy before it comes out or sitting on various different consolidate panels and

[00:33:02] that is a full-time job and that's why you can't use anything that's proprietary limited so privately

[00:33:08] owned company you can't like cook salami have their own for profit interests and additionally

[00:33:14] you can't have said there's been a few consultation models set up where they're legally structured

[00:33:18] not for profit but all the directors of their own brands they have almost no workforce so of course

[00:33:23] if they rock up to those meetings with government they're only interested in representing their

[00:33:26] own brand so the point being is a properly structured peak body has to work on and for the

[00:33:31] industry that's a cheesy line I'll come up with on the webpage because we have to educate both of

[00:33:35] these sectors on what we actually are we work for and on those industries we don't work in them

[00:33:41] yeah so that way we're not conflicted and that's what it means to work with government say yes

[00:33:45] we lobby but we don't lobby in the traditional political sense of left and right right we lobby

[00:33:50] with them for our purpose and our purpose is as a professional association like each art of

[00:33:57] account and see the law societies and so on and that's where we're going to go to them with that

[00:34:01] an MOU memory of understanding in and around developing standards they all understand that

[00:34:04] is a guide and when we survey the employee tech sector including some of the backbones of

[00:34:11] their industry representation which at the likes of the end Windsor and so on

[00:34:15] is they've said it's incredibly important that we work with all governments to get a consistent

[00:34:19] interpretation for how we configure systems so give you one example that's a hot topic now

[00:34:25] we have met with several entities that we can't say publicly who they are but people can probably

[00:34:30] guess within the government and say yep let us know when you've got a certain amount of members

[00:34:34] and will formally form a committee together right but one is say the calculation of leave

[00:34:40] what are our favourite subjects here at the show it's all right so let's say your SAP

[00:34:44] and I'm not saying SAP is currently with us or not but I'm just using as an example because

[00:34:48] they have a monster so let's say your SAP what is the exact coding formula putting for the accrual

[00:34:54] for a lot for a annual leave now a lot of people right now off the top of the head say well that's

[00:34:58] easy it's say for most states and territories in Australia you get 20 days annual leave per year so

[00:35:03] it's 20 divided by 12 you know to get it not necessarily because you got this thing called a leap year

[00:35:08] now whether your SAP or not what if we had a position by the regulators so the regulators are

[00:35:14] playing their space at primary the primarily the fairware conbotsman for the federal side of it

[00:35:19] then you got your state regulators for other things that might impact including super innovation

[00:35:24] and taxation and so on what if we had one configurable standard that said we all agree that

[00:35:29] the actual code is milliliter whatever the code is all right so whatever the

[00:35:33] figures that's it that's all a configurable standard is yeah and they go we out they go oh good

[00:35:38] finally we've got a direction here on something we've got to be questioned about that's how we

[00:35:42] coming to it so we will develop they'd be free they'd be available on the internet and the model

[00:35:47] we're using is not new it already exists for the taxation side of the house and has for about 40

[00:35:52] years it's called the double a space strain accounting standards that's all they do yeah yeah wow

[00:35:57] you guys are so can you bring this to America can you replicate could you think you can or no but

[00:36:01] seriously like could you replicate this model like after if this is successful and I can't imagine

[00:36:06] that even if you failed at part of it it wouldn't still be a success right but like could you

[00:36:10] replicate this model or do this again in other countries I mean if this works out yeah I would

[00:36:16] love to yeah or show other countries how to do this right and I don't know the the way we sort

[00:36:22] of operate legally here in America like just you know from a what would you say capitalist perspective

[00:36:28] that you're ever going to get all that cooperation but but really like just these standards and

[00:36:32] education and these things I think are just still lacking in every country mostly I bet your

[00:36:37] employed tech industry is probably loving the idea of configurable standards because remember we

[00:36:41] only have nine governments you would make things easier wouldn't it yeah 52 I read about

[00:36:46] certifications just for California so we have 16,000 entities if you count every local state

[00:36:54] you know school tax you know every little local there is across America I think it's 15 to

[00:36:59] 16,000 if I'm not mistaken yeah that's insane right that's insane that's a whole that's the world

[00:37:03] I mean you know what I mean like it's all world like come on yeah we overcomplicate a lot of

[00:37:08] things to hear but one thing just I'm related to what what we're just talking about so the

[00:37:14] accounting bodies have something already like that yes international accounting standards but

[00:37:19] I thought well if we get these standards we get these standards up and running we start nailing

[00:37:22] them start getting some traction in industry yeah there's no reason why we can't start an

[00:37:26] international payroll standards yeah why not right yeah no I love it man I love it I'm hoping you do

[00:37:32] it I want to see it so look we got the education you'll have now then the designation as a profession

[00:37:39] you can benchmark them equal to accountants and lawyers but there's one there's one piece I want

[00:37:43] this is where I really want to opine right I love yeah love the idea of the chief payroll officer

[00:37:48] the CPO right and I like the idea that it is separate from the COO and CFO I think there's

[00:37:53] something for that right because you've seen some fraud right where founders and CEOs did some

[00:37:59] things they weren't supposed to because they could control payroll but you say you want to see it

[00:38:03] that HR is subordinate to that that I think is going to be controversial particularly in America

[00:38:07] I think it would right could you see the CHRO reporting that way right I mean tell me tell me about

[00:38:13] that yeah so let's just see we wouldn't explain yeah from my point of view our position we are

[00:38:21] going forward unapologetically about risk managing payroll I love that and I agree with that I totally

[00:38:27] agree with that yeah so that's that's where we're starting to come from yeah as I said I've got

[00:38:32] two HR degrees I was a member of well known Australian HR Institute tried working with them and did

[00:38:38] a lot of digging is to work out what is going on with HR why are they saying that they do payroll

[00:38:43] but in actuality they don't so think again that analogy you've 1815 Europe or 1886 and you've got

[00:38:50] Poland doesn't exist it's technically a part of France but of course it does that's HR right and

[00:38:55] that's why we came up with the narrative petitioning it's being petitioned by HR and for small

[00:39:00] business in Australia which is a significant problem when I was doing my research on what was

[00:39:05] causing noncompliance in around payroll there's a taxation act called the TASSA taxation services

[00:39:10] act which means it's heavily regulated by the Australian taxation office framework called a

[00:39:16] tax agent you're going to be registered tax agent or registered registered as agent is an activity

[00:39:22] statement agent you'd ordered to conduct any kind of tax return including payroll or super

[00:39:27] innovation return which means we have for servicing 43% of the country the wrong profession right

[00:39:35] that is that is huge when you go into the seasweet it then goes the other way and the question people

[00:39:40] always ask is where should pay where I'll see should it sit under HR or accounting yeah the answer

[00:39:45] unequivocally is neither because neither and this is how we come at it we've got several different

[00:39:51] layers as to why we say neither firstly both of those professions are not qualified in payroll

[00:39:56] we have a current gap though to be according to the skills framework we've got to do to get it

[00:40:00] recognised up there isn't really one but there is one that's closely linked to where we want to

[00:40:05] get it which is those masses of labour laws in metrosigninal so we say it is an operational

[00:40:11] labour law profession and HR is not qualified in it more over then we also bring the lawyers into

[00:40:18] and say lawyers also not qualified they go what do you mean we say well in their bachelor's degree

[00:40:23] they don't even do a labour law unit it's an elective most of them don't do it and then they don't

[00:40:27] do it until they get to their practices and then they only get exposed to labour law

[00:40:32] education if they want to certify in it which is optional or do one of those two degrees yeah then

[00:40:37] you go back to accounting accounting is basically a bank the account is going to hate this but anyway

[00:40:43] basically a bank so and if anything what we're saying is accounting treatment contributes towards

[00:40:48] payroll noncompliance it doesn't help it so an example is an overpayment when you get an overpayment

[00:40:53] of seen policies and we're actually written this in some submissions where they take administrative

[00:40:59] action on the victim of the overpayment who is not in control of their own payroll system

[00:41:03] and the account then classified as a debt and locked it as accounts receivable well no firstly

[00:41:09] you've got underpinning labour laws and then you've got a whole bunch of compounding noncompliance

[00:41:14] as well activity that happens in and around it has to be examined so that's what payroll has

[00:41:19] to expand its capabilities into not only operational labour law but things like fraud control

[00:41:25] and treatment and so on and so forth I think you've just got to keep up with it keep up with your

[00:41:30] learnings yeah I love the idea of the chief payroll officer right especially being separate from

[00:41:36] from the CFO or maybe even the CHRO I totally with that I think in my brain but I'm just curious if

[00:41:42] you think that I mean Julie what do you think do you think people will I mean Karen do you see

[00:41:46] the CHRO reporting to the CPO then in that case or who they report to how are they all sort of

[00:41:51] report up to the same CEO this is how we tackle the position and she can have whoever you want

[00:41:55] the CFO right so I'm not going to sit there and say a CHRO shouldn't be in there yeah

[00:41:59] say a categorically is neither the CRO or CFO is in charge of payroll I see separate qualified

[00:42:06] separate yeah yeah exactly they need to be separate so what that leaves the CRO doing and this

[00:42:10] is the problem we know happens in C-suite is it's a mixture of they can turn into a bit of a

[00:42:16] bear pitfall slash this is my train set people get protective over it and we're like well and as

[00:42:20] I've seen a couple of meetings with some international type entities that have pulled me in and said

[00:42:25] we've got underpayment issues what should we do I said firstly cancel your $200 a week help

[00:42:30] lying to a payroll service provider and what are you paying your chief HR officer $400 000 a year

[00:42:36] for yeah because from what I can tell they're not doing payroll and secondly they're really in

[00:42:41] charge of recruitment now a lot of them if they do their masters in HR they should be strategic

[00:42:46] workforce management experts but a lot of them are yeah interesting so carve out whatever you want

[00:42:52] to do but legally speaking and particularly now that you've got a criminal element in and around

[00:42:57] payroll in Australia coming into effect next year I want to talk about that more yeah the risk is

[00:43:02] just simply too high to not have an ex-burting charge now what we're seeing though in the private sector

[00:43:06] just how everyone's aware that this isn't the world according to Kirin and you know he's not off

[00:43:10] with he's not sitting there with a pitfall had on right now being crazy the private sector wants

[00:43:16] that on mass the private sector wants a chief payroll officer yeah and would that be the sort of

[00:43:21] level of company or do you see that as a our companies across the board the feedback I'm having

[00:43:26] on equivically is please go ahead and do it the problem we've got is how do you spot one

[00:43:32] yeah anyone can fake a CV we know there's issues right now in Australia of kickback schemes for people

[00:43:36] faking their CVs and they're going with at least credible regulated professions which payroll

[00:43:43] is not accounting is credible and regulated yeah employers are credible and regulated

[00:43:49] pedals aren't in payrolls not so we need to be able to firstly and this is where we talk about

[00:43:55] regulated and credible and in fact that when we launched the division the motto which we came up

[00:44:01] with last is credible capable and empowered right so credible means we're regulating and we

[00:44:07] do incremental history background checks through two you'll only get certified once you've done a

[00:44:12] degree the degree framework will be dependent on how much experience you've got and then we're

[00:44:18] going to certify and then in power so people should be able to then spot go to a register just

[00:44:23] like you can in any law society or state bar in Australia you've got to open register

[00:44:27] of practitioners will have that and so on and so and and then they've got to know what they're doing

[00:44:31] yeah so certified and educated right they're going to have to be able to prove that exactly

[00:44:36] and this is controversial what I'm about to say here to anyone listening from Australia is all

[00:44:40] excited not one qualified payroll person in Australia right now so you've got people in Australia

[00:44:45] that are brewing in certain aspects but that's because they've had to learn on the job so you might

[00:44:50] have someone with 40 years experience it's fantastic at modern awards but they've never done an

[00:44:55] employment termination payment which is incredibly complicated particularly if you've got to go

[00:44:59] in a race and you've got to tie in several different acts yeah wow Julie what do you think about all this

[00:45:05] you know I'm first of all I just think this is amazing to approach approach looking at payroll

[00:45:11] as its own profession by by by by staying we know this is going to piss off the accounts and we

[00:45:17] know this is going to take off HR like the facts are the facts and here's what we're finding so

[00:45:24] so I think but I don't think you're wrong about any of that there's it makes me think also a

[00:45:29] little bit of at least in the US there's parts of the benefits benefits world that are so closely

[00:45:36] linked to the labor laws and just the legislation that fiduciary responsibility comes into play and

[00:45:44] it's it's kind of more highly tied to the lawyers and the accountants then payroll has been and

[00:45:52] maybe the time has come right where folks realize that even in the US market we have some some

[00:45:57] similarities and a part of our activity that is acknowledged as having those close ties that

[00:46:04] that payroll just doesn't have that same stature right yeah you know what I'll add to that

[00:46:08] Julie just here before you speak speak on this gear on is number one I would say HR doesn't get

[00:46:15] the CFO hold down in handcuffs the payroll manager the payroll leader does and often payroll

[00:46:21] knows more about what's going on in the organization than HR even does um and I think the separation

[00:46:28] is a really good thing there's been a lot of fraud I've seen some fraud recently in the news

[00:46:31] smaller companies but people manipulating payroll through the oh you know I'm a CFO do I say

[00:46:37] I'm a CEO do what I say and I think there is a danger in that especially we're right I mean

[00:46:43] there's a lot of fraud that can happen in payroll it's the biggest hit to the P&O right so yeah

[00:46:47] and there's a there's much wider risks that are on a way I actually did a post this morning on

[00:46:52] a service of 1.1 million dollar payroll fraud it's just the person just got convicted yeah

[00:46:57] now what it was I wrote some stats because I love reading accvies reports of the nations and

[00:47:01] reminding everyone payrolls in the top 10 risks and it has been for 20 years I've been reading

[00:47:05] that report since it first came out yeah and the typical fraud happens over 80 months that's if

[00:47:10] you've got detection capabilities if you're done at several years and it basically triples I think

[00:47:15] the the stats was the average payroll frauds about 200,000 US yeah and then it chees up to 4 to 6 so

[00:47:22] then when you're talking modern context terms of wage theft you've now got criminal prosecution

[00:47:29] and someone in Australia and then you've got things that aren't making it out to mainstream

[00:47:33] that we're aware of as a part of our research that we're going to put into risk management

[00:47:37] assessments that we're going to be producing and this is a part of building the capability and

[00:47:41] empowering payroll professions because they'll have this risk report from us that's that's

[00:47:46] going to be the most expensive one around so we'll have at least three to four data points where

[00:47:50] the current data points for payroll fraud in Australia is only one they're only using the

[00:47:55] fairware combatants research which is great by the way but we need to include other things such as

[00:47:59] class section litigation wider fraud reports such as acv but one of the things for instance internally

[00:48:05] that we're hearing from payroll is an accidental underpayment that's detected and the co-or CFO slash

[00:48:12] CEO goes hmm let's not tell anyone about this because I've got three years of bonuses to pick up

[00:48:19] so what we are then recommending is as we're pushing to the cease-weep with guides will say we

[00:48:25] recommend that all employment contracts for cease-weep void bonuses to executives should have become

[00:48:33] out should have come out later that they are aware of an underpayment and then that's why we

[00:48:37] have to have regulated see um payroll practitioners involved someone of their code at ethics they say sorry

[00:48:43] sir but yeah by and by you have to report this I have a ethical obligation and in turn the C-suite

[00:48:51] should also be holding them check saying um if you declare these three years later from now we're

[00:48:55] going to pull those three years of bonuses guarantee no one at all we'll be talking about what I've

[00:49:00] just mentioned then and this won't come out for another three to four years yeah I mean just

[00:49:04] speaking of de-risking I mean Julie I've seen over the last ten years in some of the big big companies

[00:49:09] where some of their shared service centers for finance were requiring director and above to have

[00:49:14] CPAs um I don't know if that's common but anecdotally I noticed that so I think it's getting more

[00:49:20] controlling if you will just because of all the fraud possibilities and trouble people can get into

[00:49:25] you know so sorry go ahead I was just gonna say there's probably a whole realignment you know

[00:49:31] in our in our current culture around where do you need the higher level education and where

[00:49:38] you have you pushed it and maybe it's really not not as critical and I'm not sure I'm sure we

[00:49:44] have quite a bit of work to do in that space yeah so Karen one of the things that I I uh I picked up on

[00:49:51] being out kind of traveling and speaking to people from Australia who are practitioners is a bit of

[00:49:57] anxiety and and concern over this new law around criminality for payroll fraud right that I know

[00:50:04] there's some new law you can probably explain better than I can but what is that going to do to the

[00:50:08] talent pool the future the current future talent pool if people are thinking hey I don't know

[00:50:13] that I want to be criminally responsible for the entire thing anymore um there's one thing about

[00:50:18] being career responsible for a payroll and another thing being criminally responsible and what is it

[00:50:22] gonna do maybe for managed services are we gonna see more outsourcing maybe in Australia because

[00:50:26] people are we're already having a talent drop right so does this excelsulate that or do you

[00:50:31] think there's going to be some sort of balance here so what we're seeing and when you when you guys

[00:50:36] can look at that amazing infographic ANSCO survey yeah we we looked at as many um looked around

[00:50:46] to involve as many data sources for that survey on what payrolls actually doing so that

[00:50:50] that survey was run about a year ago now and I connected up with some terrific payroll recruitment

[00:50:56] experts and I've kept in touch with them um so they only for instance these guys are involved

[00:51:02] in the survey only recruit for the payroll industry and no other industry and the reason being

[00:51:07] is they grew with a lot of our findings including education skilling so one of the problems you've

[00:51:12] got in Australia right now is they're writing you must have a HR business accounting on law degree

[00:51:16] to work in payroll all these guys unequivocally make their employers who advertise with them remove

[00:51:22] that there is no qualification as far as we can say until we develop it and so on so call

[00:51:26] now in relation to your question I know I was literally up in keeping contact with these guys

[00:51:30] talking about what's going on currently in the market the exact opposite has happened

[00:51:34] Pete really okay payroll has gone through the roof people wanting to be in talent coming in

[00:51:42] employers wanting to risk manage wage theft is driving the increase oh I see I see okay what's

[00:51:49] what's happening is yeah more job openings yep yeah okay it's it's it's it's it's increased

[00:51:54] market demand is the one minor down to that's where they've come to us and said please help

[00:51:59] and hurry up with what you do yeah because we um so one very concerned and very credible recruitment

[00:52:05] payroll industry guy from Victoria has told me twice about fraudulent see the kickback schemes

[00:52:11] going on oh I'm sure yeah so they're quite significant because what's happening is they're using

[00:52:16] legitimate credible professionals so you're talking accounting and all qualified people

[00:52:23] yeah faking their CVs and then taking a permanent percentage of their pay to act as a fake

[00:52:28] referee oh great right so yes and it's just ironic that that's fine it's and it's just ironic

[00:52:36] that this has been driven by the criminalisation oh man but I mean but have you had you experienced

[00:52:41] that I've talked to and what do you guys call that law I apologize I'd probably

[00:52:44] flubbed over it it was passed as a the bill was called closing the loophole's bill okay okay I'm

[00:52:51] number spill I'm number spill means it had many different acts in it yes and in there was wage theft

[00:52:55] explain that because what can happen because what I was told was that the payroll manager or

[00:52:59] leader could actually be criminally held responsible for a fraud in payroll and that's why I think

[00:53:04] I've heard some practitioners saying I don't know that I want that much respond I'm happy to

[00:53:08] be responsible but I don't know that I want to go to prison for something that I might not be able

[00:53:12] to stop thanks I mean yeah yeah witness comes up the first thing I say to payroll is well you

[00:53:18] can already go to prison for what you do possibly right yeah yeah taxes and yeah well it taxes

[00:53:24] but I mean just simply this news article was reading just before we jumped on here 1.1 million

[00:53:29] dollar fraud was a payroll person yeah defrauding the company now what they talk about they

[00:53:38] specifically into this act and by the way it's not the first act there was two state ones put

[00:53:42] through for the Queensland and Victorian governments already what happened was because you had

[00:53:47] labor governments in state power for many years but it was a coalition or like a Republican type

[00:53:53] federal government who wouldn't do it so the state government's acted on their own now w a third

[00:53:58] one also modified their industrial relations laws is kind of included that wasn't specifically

[00:54:02] called a wage theft act so federally when labor got in so the democrats got in about 80 months ago

[00:54:09] one of their election promises was to criminalise it now they're providing very several different

[00:54:13] clauses in there from safe harbor through to exemptions so that's the first thing so small

[00:54:19] vincers has an exemption provided they follow the code right now small businesses about 43%

[00:54:25] of the employed economy so small business can breathe the side of relief provided they can show

[00:54:29] they're doing something so remember this is a this is a criminal type burden of improved which means

[00:54:35] they have to demonstrate intent for the various different bodies will prosecute the primarily one

[00:54:42] being the fair work on buttsman now that there's a deputy fair work on buttsman who's terrific

[00:54:48] and she's in charge of this called Michelle Kerry and her and I will be chatting more in due course

[00:54:54] provided you know obviously we reach our milestones and we officially are recognised by the

[00:54:59] government and so on to provide clarity in and around the circumstances and the role payroll

[00:55:05] now what they're talking about where payroll potentially be prosecuted is if let's say there's intent

[00:55:12] and they've been decided to defraud and deliberately underpay and so on so forth so like all

[00:55:17] criminal prosecutions there's a huge you know amount of boxes that need to be ticked for that to be

[00:55:23] confirmed yes payroll is on the hook as it should be and I think it will be sorting out the intermediaries

[00:55:31] that like to say they're in charge of payroll which is the ones that are confident and actually in

[00:55:35] charge of it and I've actually been chatting to some top payroll people recently who will only

[00:55:39] take a job if they're reporting direct to the CEO yeah that's great do you think this will drive

[00:55:44] up managed services anymore than it already is and we're already seeing a good bit of outsourcing

[00:55:48] for various compliance things and you know just transformation but you think it'll push that up

[00:55:53] a little bit manage services have already been a longstanding issue in Australia because of

[00:55:58] interesting state payroll tax yeah so that's where you're over a certain amount of employees now

[00:56:03] I can't remember the figure it's something like two three or four hundred something like that

[00:56:07] you didn't have to pay a state tax for the privilege of that amount of employees working in your

[00:56:13] state of territory yeah because of that a lot a lot of particularly their bigger entities so

[00:56:18] you know particularly entities in our top 50 ASX listed so that's the most wealthy companies in

[00:56:24] Australia have managed services in the Philippines Philippines is very popular and so on that in

[00:56:31] unto itself creates a risk and I think the wage they're built unintentionally may have wandered into

[00:56:36] that yeah and I say that because what is the expectation of someone and you've heard everything

[00:56:43] that would laying down the framework right now the next couple of years credible in power with

[00:56:47] regulated payroll how's that going to work for someone working offshore yeah or even in country I mean

[00:56:53] do you think it'll drive up going to single you know sort of single country in country providers at all

[00:56:58] or to get help I think it should but I think it's going to be a long process is to breaking that

[00:57:04] up within the market so for instance where we're going with the TASTS so that TECS Agent Services Act

[00:57:09] we're going to do what the lawyers did and once we show that we're at a very high standard for

[00:57:13] self-regulation we've got a degree in place and someone and by the way with that postgraduate

[00:57:17] degree case in a way there's panicking you won't have to do an undergraduate if you've got five

[00:57:21] years experience you know the role straighting and so once we do that we can then get an

[00:57:26] exemption so what that means is there might be an explosion of payroll being recognised both in

[00:57:32] remediation as well as advertising their services raising what happens right now is a lot of them

[00:57:37] have to go and study bookkeeping to get their bas license which is the equivalent of like think

[00:57:41] if you're a mechanic you have to go study out of table stakes sort of yeah exactly how to study

[00:57:47] it and be a wider or something in state so yeah I think there'll be various different explosions

[00:57:51] and a return back to Australia well very cool man I'm excited all this is so so very exciting

[00:57:57] and I love what you're doing I hope you can see it shared with others what you've learned

[00:58:01] and what you guys structure this as and what it comes becomes but tell me just high level what's

[00:58:06] your timeline for this and sort of I guess how can our how can our audience help what can we do we've

[00:58:10] got a lot of payroll practitioners listening maybe some from Australia I know we got some Australians

[00:58:15] out there so what can we do to help yeah certainly say timeline wise I've got some fantastic

[00:58:22] timelines and we've never achieved one thing yeah so I channel the George Martin you know

[00:58:29] Game of Thrones order yeah yeah and I just say to be ready when it's ready so

[00:58:34] what what we're working on though is we actually are in a cusp of a very important transitional

[00:58:38] change of moving from a purely volunteer organisation to a proper paid structure body which means

[00:58:44] we need people to join and we're going to be rolling out in the next one to two months the first

[00:58:49] member division and that'll be for payroll so for all intencing purposes well it's called a

[00:58:55] division it will be its own association very cool and please join yeah best way to support

[00:59:01] us is joining all of us on LinkedIn Australian Workforce Compliance Council or on our website

[00:59:06] awcc.asm.au so everything's announced on there we're now stuff pretty much weekly including our

[00:59:12] submissions to government yeah sorry Joel yeah so you don't need to be in Australia to register

[00:59:17] and become a member that's right and anyone can join so whilst we are as we said we have a very

[00:59:23] firm point for what we call intermediaries so anyone that's not payroll you can join as an affiliate

[00:59:28] that's fine and we know that there is a huge a huge thirst for knowledge around what we're doing

[00:59:37] from HR and from accounting because they ask all the time and they're their professional bodies

[00:59:42] are not interested that's why we created the affiliate category so anyone from HR accounting

[00:59:47] you can join it's the same price we get to announce the prices but they're quite reasonable

[00:59:52] and anyone with a payroll background where we get to rolling out the certification that's when

[00:59:55] everyone from payroll that's a member will have to convert or revert to an affiliate membership

[01:00:02] but that's several years away yeah wow I'm excited for you I can't wait and look if there's anything

[01:00:07] we can do to help you you just let us know I'd love the work closer with you cure on to see how

[01:00:11] I can contribute maybe my some of my research or if I can come speak or whatever we can do to help

[01:00:16] and yeah I want to bring you back in another year maybe two whatever makes sense and let's talk

[01:00:20] about all the great things that are coming out of the AWS CC for payroll so thank you for

[01:00:24] what you've been appreciate you no problem and we'd love to have you guys on too we'll be right

[01:00:27] at events and podcasts in due course and of course we'll be going into his website and so on so

[01:00:33] and thank you very much for having me it's been right to be honest I was very excited after looking at

[01:00:37] some of your previous episodes yeah great man it's a I'm happy to share the message and we're happy

[01:00:41] to you know shine a light on some good work that's going on and maybe we can create maybe this

[01:00:44] can become a model right a standard for what what could be for payroll around the world I hope so

[01:00:49] thank you for coming so all right well that's it everyone thank you so much Julie good seeing you

[01:00:54] as always thanks and we will be back soon people take care

[01:01:03] you