Is Africa the New Talent Fountain of Youth? with Special Guests Nana Frimpong, & Mike Kelly

[00:00:09] Welcome everyone to another episode of HR amp, Payroll 2.0, I'm Pete Tillie Ocus and as always,

[00:00:15] I'm joined by the legendary Julie Fernandez.

[00:00:17] Welcome Julie.

[00:00:18] Thanks be.

[00:00:18] Excited to be recording today and I think we are going to take a geographic tour today with our

[00:00:25] guests.

[00:00:25] Yes, we are.

[00:00:26] We are.

[00:00:26] I am really, really excited to bring two gentlemen that I admire greatly.

[00:00:31] I've just started to work with.

[00:00:33] We are together the HR or excuse me, Africa, HR Solutions Advisory Committee.

[00:00:38] My self, Nana Frimpong, the COO of our at social impact incorporated and Mike Kelly,

[00:00:46] the Senior Partner and Risk Advisor at the Baldwin Group.

[00:00:49] Welcome gentlemen, excited to have you both.

[00:00:51] Thank you.

[00:00:53] Yeah.

[00:00:54] So look, I thought maybe you guys could both just give a quick introduction.

[00:00:57] I'm excited.

[00:00:57] I want to get into all things Africa here, the possibilities.

[00:01:02] There's so much in the news about it.

[00:01:05] We see that the huge talent pool there, just the growing.

[00:01:08] We've seen a couple of even startups.

[00:01:10] I saw some big valuations recently there.

[00:01:13] Just a lot going on in the tech space, a lot going on and growth and certainly just excited

[00:01:17] to talk to you guys.

[00:01:18] So, Nana, maybe you could get us started to tell us a little bit about what you do and then

[00:01:22] Mike maybe you can go after him.

[00:01:24] Sure.

[00:01:24] Thanks Pete and it's great to be with you and your listeners and Julie as well.

[00:01:29] Yeah, so I work with a company called Social Impact Incorporated.

[00:01:32] We are a monitoring evaluation and learning firm consulting firm located out of Arlington,

[00:01:41] Virginia, specifically in Boston.

[00:01:44] And what we do is support the US government and some of our other clients and foundations,

[00:01:51] both domestic US government agencies and international US government agencies.

[00:01:55] So, it's actually realized the impact of dollars invested in specific programs within the

[00:02:00] government communities that US government supports.

[00:02:04] So this could be internationally.

[00:02:06] All over the world, we support our clients and over 60 countries and also domestically where

[00:02:13] we're currently expanding our portfolio to support a couple of clients already in the city

[00:02:18] of Oregon and other agencies as well that we're currently working with.

[00:02:25] By way of background, I'm very excited to talk to you about Africa.

[00:02:29] I am African.

[00:02:31] It was born in Ghana and West Africa and spent most of my formative years there and went

[00:02:38] back to work in pretty much most of East Africa and Southern Africa and subsequently

[00:02:45] stopped with the same theme, did some work in Egypt as well as in West Africa, specifically

[00:02:51] Nigeria and Ghana.

[00:02:53] With a few short, very short, stints, et cetera and Molly and a couple of other sort of

[00:02:59] francophone countries.

[00:03:00] So I'm excited to talk Africa, I excited to share what I know and to learn from you all as well

[00:03:06] and look forward to the rest of the conversation.

[00:03:09] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:03:09] I'm excited.

[00:03:09] You guys have some great experience, Nana.

[00:03:11] And I want to dig into it, man.

[00:03:13] Mike, how about you, man?

[00:03:15] Tell us a little bit about what you do.

[00:03:17] Yeah, thanks for having me, Pete, and as you indicated, I'm a senior partner with the Baldwin

[00:03:21] Group and we are risk advisors and insurance brokers.

[00:03:26] And about 15 years ago, at that point in time, we just, by happens to dance managed

[00:03:33] to have a number of international non-governmental organizations or international development

[00:03:38] organization clients.

[00:03:40] And at that time, we realized that they were working largely all over Africa, which is

[00:03:46] where a great deal of the funding is going for agencies like

[00:03:51] USAA, the five of its funders like Silicon Valley, the Gates Foundation and a variety

[00:03:56] of others.

[00:03:57] So, slowly and shortly, you know, Pete Borden raised in Richmond, Virginia, I started

[00:04:02] to come to specialize with organizations that we're working all over Africa.

[00:04:09] I think today we have clients working in every African nation.

[00:04:14] And that is a wrestling with a variety of the challenges because, you know, certain areas

[00:04:18] of Africa are much more developed.

[00:04:21] Others expanding into Africa while it is very, I can be very attractive from a business

[00:04:26] opportunity perspective.

[00:04:28] Different geographies have different challenges and helping our clients navigate working

[00:04:33] in African expanding into Africa, something that let's just say it's never dull.

[00:04:39] So I'm appreciative of the work we do.

[00:04:41] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:04:42] You know, I don't know about you, Julie, but like I've been seeing, you know, one of the

[00:04:45] things that I've noticed is a lot more clients taking notice of Africa for talent,

[00:04:51] for offshoring of talent and getting help with skills.

[00:04:56] Maybe even BPO work.

[00:04:58] But what about you?

[00:04:58] What do you see?

[00:04:58] And I think it's really, really picking it's head for sure.

[00:05:01] Yeah, that's right.

[00:05:01] You know, a lot of the shared service conferences is not uncommon to find country representatives

[00:05:07] there that are promoting their country.

[00:05:09] It's been primarily, we've always seen a lot that was in Central America.

[00:05:14] But definitely seen Kenya and some other, you know, present at some of those areas

[00:05:19] that are touting themselves.

[00:05:21] Those great locations for shared services talent.

[00:05:25] And yeah, but it's gotten more and more attention.

[00:05:28] So I can't wait to hear from our couple of experts today, you know, about how it's

[00:05:32] developing and how and where.

[00:05:34] Yeah, yeah, you know, just to share some data points.

[00:05:37] I was looking at just to kind of validate some of the things that I've seen over

[00:05:40] the last probably two years.

[00:05:42] I've really been, I've actually had added a few more clients in Africa like Africa

[00:05:47] HR solutions.

[00:05:49] We've seen, I think it was just this week.

[00:05:51] We saw a couple of major tech players get some big valuations and fundings in Africa.

[00:05:56] Work pay I think was one of them if I'm not mistaken.

[00:05:59] But I think it's really interesting note that there's 1.3 billion people in Africa as

[00:06:05] far as I don't know what year that was.

[00:06:07] Maybe that's last year.

[00:06:08] But 60% of those are under the age of 25 and the population is expected to grow by

[00:06:13] about 450 million people by 2035.

[00:06:17] So there's a rich talent pool there and I'm seeing more clients actually go out

[00:06:21] use the ELR model, use some of the modern solutions that are out there today and tap

[00:06:27] into that talent and really really boosting their tech prowess, I guess you could say.

[00:06:32] But Nana or Nana, I'm sorry, I keep messing that up.

[00:06:36] What is it like doing business in Africa?

[00:06:37] To my understanding, it's only about I think it's like what 14 to 16 countries that you

[00:06:41] can reasonably conduct business in?

[00:06:44] That's a great question and that's a question that plays everybody because the

[00:06:50] opportunity is huge.

[00:06:53] You have, like you mentioned, 1.3 billion people largely under served markets in pretty much any

[00:07:00] category that you want to talk about or speak to whether that's healthcare, agriculture,

[00:07:07] sort of logistics.

[00:07:10] There's there are all, there's sort of traditionally historically been very few players

[00:07:16] in any of these areas.

[00:07:17] I think over the last 10 or so years we've seen the tech sort of industries try to shift

[00:07:23] that and the emergence of a lot of different players, some obviously most successful than others

[00:07:31] at capitalizing on what I think is like one of the biggest benefits or one of the biggest

[00:07:36] drivers of change on the continent right now which is like just basic cell phone penetration, right?

[00:07:42] So right now penetration is about 46%.

[00:07:46] But it's driving a pretty significant volume of business in in sub-triangle Africa.

[00:07:51] I think in terms of doing business in my experience both as somebody who's lived on the

[00:07:58] continent and as somebody who was parents who were both entrepreneurs or partial entrepreneurs

[00:08:06] and then having gone back then working different capacities with a development sector, another with this

[00:08:12] pure private play.

[00:08:16] The one thing to note is that it's not a sort of giant, monolithic place right?

[00:08:22] It's a very diverse, very varied continent and what you recognize and sort of like the

[00:08:32] regional differences right?

[00:08:34] So West Africa is very different from East Africa which is right from southern Africa which is also very

[00:08:38] different from North Africa if you want to count them as part of

[00:08:41] sort of Africa writ large and then within those sort of regions you also have very specific

[00:08:47] differences.

[00:08:48] So French speaking countries typically have a very different approach to bureaucracy and regulation

[00:08:55] and even in some cases entrepreneurship than sort of like English speaking countries in some cases

[00:09:01] and not if I get that they are Portuguese speaking countries in there as well as Spanish speaking right?

[00:09:08] And so it's really understanding your market very well, very being getting hyper local

[00:09:15] on the specific location you're trying to work in, getting smart on the regulations, getting smart on

[00:09:24] the challenges and risks because they are plenty

[00:09:28] to go with the sort of merit of opportunities that come as well.

[00:09:32] And I think for me, really there's a couple of barriers to entry typically people have to think about

[00:09:38] one which we will touch on today which is talent, a lot of people just trying to figure out where to find talent

[00:09:44] you know, despite sort of being a much a sea of people just from the numbers perspective

[00:09:50] then there's also just general regulation like how do I get into this country, how do I sort of navigate the bureaucracy

[00:09:58] and how do I make sure that I'm set up for success because in some of these environments depending on sort of what the

[00:10:06] bureaucracy and governance and government sort of set up is

[00:10:11] doing anything that runs a foul of those entities could really very quickly bring your business expedition to a halt right

[00:10:21] but in terms of some of the great places that have become like jogger nuts as far as business is concerned

[00:10:28] you have the Kenya's or the world, you have obviously South Africa, you have Rwanda which has really searched to the front in the last 10-15 years

[00:10:39] with just incredible efficiency in terms of just getting registered

[00:10:45] and then you have places like Ghana, Nigeria which are, you know, especially Nigeria has been a traditional sort of destination for most businesses

[00:10:55] but it does have a pretty rich and complex history with business

[00:11:03] but incredible opportunities there in terms of if you're able to crack the regulatory environment

[00:11:08] find a market that sort of wants your products and build to the unique nature of the Nigerian

[00:11:17] sort of palette for whatever it is that you're providing, it offers incredible opportunity

[00:11:23] and that's why we're seeing a lot of the successful startups coming out of Nigeria these days

[00:11:30] yeah you just mentioned the regions like to play that a little bit more I'm not sure I'm familiar with that

[00:11:34] when you talk about the regions like what's the difference in those yeah so you so that the

[00:11:40] typically if you talk about sub-saharan af Well if you talk about Africa writ large you have North Africa

[00:11:44] right which is typically your Egypt, Morocco, Tunisia, Libya, Algeria you know sort of closer to the

[00:11:53] Mediterranean in many ways stronger economies sort of pre advanced on a number of fronts and with

[00:12:03] sort of pretty mature markets relative to a lot of sub-saharan Africa across the board right

[00:12:10] if you you know look at West Africa West Africa is really interesting for a couple of reasons

[00:12:17] so here we're talking about countries like Senegal, Ghana, Qatar, Duvwar, Nigeria, Togo, Benin

[00:12:24] but it's one of the potentially like largest regions from sort of just a basic population standpoint

[00:12:31] primarily because of Nigeria but it also is a region where you have French speaking and English

[00:12:37] speaking countries basically side by side and so it makes it very sort of interesting navigating

[00:12:46] borders on there because like if you're a foreign Ghana like to your left right and the West

[00:12:52] East and North our French speaking countries right same with Nigeria right they've got Niger

[00:12:58] they've got Benin and they've got a camera room which is English speaking and French speaking

[00:13:02] and so basically understanding that difference and what that means bureaucratically what that means

[00:13:08] culturally what that means for being able to export across markets regionally within West Africa

[00:13:16] and knowing that it's essentially a bilingual market you need to both have your French and your

[00:13:20] English dialed in and as well as like the cultural pieces and differences dialed in if you want

[00:13:26] to penetrate that market region or if you want to sort of like think about market entry on a country

[00:13:32] by country basis most people typically will look at a place like Nigeria which has a pretty

[00:13:36] sizable population and say okay you know that maybe that's our point of entry then you've got

[00:13:43] East in Africa and East in South Africa where you know they're predominantly English speaking

[00:13:48] but also there's some significant differences country the country right you've got sort of South Africa

[00:13:54] with its own specific sort of history and and sort of unique position economically on the continent

[00:14:02] as one of the sort of powerhouses there but then you've also got a place like Kenya which is

[00:14:07] incredibly entrepreneurial also very very innovative from sort of just a youth perspective

[00:14:14] and even the existing businesses there and then you make your way up to places like Tanzania

[00:14:21] which are sort of upcoming have a slightly less robust sort of entrepreneurial economy but are

[00:14:29] also sort of pulling their weight and then to rewind us off the world but then they're also

[00:14:34] some of these hitting gems like Angola like equatorial guinea countries that oftentimes are

[00:14:41] out of the spotlight because they need an English no French speaking they're by Angola's primary

[00:14:47] language as Portuguese equatorial guinea speaks Spanish but they also present tremendous opportunity

[00:14:54] for those who understand how to navigate those markets and are willing to venture there.

[00:14:59] Yeah yeah it's exciting I mean it really is I mean I'm talking to more and more buyers that are

[00:15:04] thinking about it and looking at these emerging markets and trying to figure it out to for many reasons

[00:15:09] but Mike what do you guys what do you see man I mean you're dealing with customers kind of

[00:15:13] going all over the world like what's the percentage of Africa what's sort of the what's the

[00:15:18] tone right now well it's interesting and I mentioned my specialization in in organizations like

[00:15:24] social impact those that are in groups either NGOs or international or for profit international

[00:15:29] development organizations and oftentimes they are going where their funders are directed them to go

[00:15:36] and there are our places such as we consider it an air quotes you know some of the more developing

[00:15:42] regions of Africa to put it nicely or other areas that you could refer to them as you know have

[00:15:48] ongoing conflict and places like that are the democratic Republic of the Congo which most people

[00:15:55] obviously not on us this is the number one recipient country in the world or foreign aid

[00:16:01] democratic Republic of Congo so there is a tremendous amount of activity there but then there are

[00:16:09] also areas like Somalia from Wanda, Bali and and a variety of typically sub-to-haring African

[00:16:17] countries that are receiving money to either deliver a or try to develop a help with economic

[00:16:26] development and a whole host of other organizations like a social impact that do monitoring

[00:16:31] and evaluation work also called impact analysis okay and what that means is okay well we did

[00:16:37] have to build the dollars in the DRC to help them develop in a nation what is the impact we're

[00:16:44] actually having are we actually making a difference and so given the I was like called the dynamic

[00:16:51] risk environment and just the developing nature of Africa there's a tremendous amount of both

[00:16:58] private and the government funding headed up to the haira in Africa that has many more organizations

[00:17:04] going to Africa and also looking to do work in the higher risk environments in Africa

[00:17:11] which not only could potentially lead to harm to personnel it also it also leads to many of

[00:17:17] the things non-acmonious focus about it understanding how businesses done there understanding that

[00:17:23] local regulation can be fluid to say the least and that the way that you are especially from an

[00:17:31] American perspective the way that we are used to practicing business can be can be entirely

[00:17:37] different and that is where having the right in-country partners is really invaluable to you as you

[00:17:44] look to capitalize on those business opportunities yeah absolutely you know I've heard I don't

[00:17:50] know for sure but my understanding is in some of those locations just for an example like you're

[00:17:54] saying being different my understanding from an HR and payroll perspective in some of those countries

[00:17:59] you have to actually deliver some of your reporting on paper right by hand is that is that true or

[00:18:05] you heard that you're like yeah I mean I'll give you a very sort of real example yeah

[00:18:11] yeah during COVID trying to start a business in Nigeria basically with the shut you know everywhere

[00:18:18] a lockdown etc and in many places we were still able to get things going like in Kenya by you know

[00:18:29] documents submitted had to be signed in wet ink oh my and we couldn't find it right who was showing

[00:18:38] up to work and those things and so that becomes a real barrier at least at that time you know

[00:18:44] everywhere we're experiencing its own unique challenges but just to give you an example that yes

[00:18:49] in some places there's still very much especially when I do with a government bureaucracy

[00:18:53] yeah still do you very much with with paper yeah yeah it's fascinating I just want to echo

[00:18:59] exactly and I think not necessarily tell this story before my but this is an angola story

[00:19:04] but I was helping a client within insurance placement in angola even though they well knew

[00:19:09] that I was at U.S. broker I got a request to come to Angola and sign the documents in wet ink

[00:19:17] now thankfully we were able to find a broker partner in angola to make that signature on our behalf

[00:19:23] but I think it's not just the story that that summer required in wet ink it's just to not

[00:19:28] a point I think it's spot on is that these things could differ entirely from one African nation to another

[00:19:35] sometimes them being right next door to each other and that's why I feel like it's thoughtful

[00:19:42] it's like hey we're gonna work in Africa okay Africa's pretty big and pretty diverse

[00:19:47] where specifically are you going to work in Africa and just because you're having success working in

[00:19:54] Kenya doesn't mean it's time to take on the entire continent you need to be very thoughtful about

[00:20:00] where you're going to expand into next but I mean not I you know all about this what would you

[00:20:05] add to to that point no I think that's exactly spot on and a lot of times when people hear about

[00:20:12] some of the ridiculously incredible successes on the digital front things like MPs and mobile

[00:20:19] money etc there is this perception which is not false that digitization is on the march

[00:20:27] across the continent but it is on the march across the continent primarily among consumers primarily

[00:20:33] among like businesses on the commercial end but if you're trying to establish a business

[00:20:39] and you have to deal with government bureaucracies and sort of regulators etc you're most likely

[00:20:44] gonna encounter this you know patchwork of different approaches to doing that across the

[00:20:52] across the continent in country the country yeah so every any any approach any strategy that you want

[00:20:57] to take to expansion into Africa has to be on a country by country so it's tactical level that's a great point

[00:21:05] I feel a lot about the talent as well so I've had the pleasure in the past of working with Loria

[00:21:11] which does a lot of education facilities programs international universities right in developing

[00:21:18] areas around the world I don't think Africa was there they did more South American Central America

[00:21:25] but we're in South Africa back in the day but putting up these institutions and programs

[00:21:32] and picking and having the right sort of programs to help feed the talent pool right in each

[00:21:38] in these in these growing areas or areas where folks want to go up into is part of the overall

[00:21:44] infrastructure that you need in order to grow and and do business more often more successfully

[00:21:50] and at a greater scale in some of these countries yeah absolutely curious what's your just

[00:22:00] in a nonprofit like that and also trying to navigate a location that's tricky right you have

[00:22:06] an experience of that I don't I don't have a ton you know probably no different than some other

[00:22:10] international's whether it's going to gas that end up in very strange you know I don't say strange places

[00:22:15] right but less common places or construction or mining types facilities where you know you

[00:22:22] have to be where the raw materials are you know that that creates a you know a challenge and

[00:22:28] obvious challenge and a global payroll imperative that just thank God there are vendors who are

[00:22:36] you know really focusing on certain sections of the world in certain areas and trying to grow

[00:22:42] and strengthen and make very hardy their business services I think the employers of record I

[00:22:47] think you know the the little payroll folks I think a lot of folks who are really trying to

[00:22:52] solve trying to provide a service that does help solve the challenges right yeah and I'm

[00:22:58] grateful that they're doing it because it requires a lot of investment it requires investment

[00:23:03] dollars it requires you know acumen to get it right and and it's something we'll be talking about

[00:23:08] for a long time to come yeah yeah absolutely not not just just curious like what I mean if

[00:23:14] you did go about this yourself right let's say you didn't have the help of an EOR like Africa

[00:23:19] HR solutions or or appear like what would what would this take on average to go from say

[00:23:25] day zero to being able to operate in a country are we talking months so we talking a lot more

[00:23:31] or it depends yeah yeah I've I can tell you my own personal experience having tried to do

[00:23:39] social impact and sort of like other employers in the past it varies country by country I've

[00:23:46] I've been able to register a business and get sort of bank accounts and everything set up in a

[00:23:52] week for example in Liberia yeah I'm a very American place by the way we're very American place

[00:23:59] and in Ethiopia I I've was told it was going to be a complete nightmare and it was done

[00:24:06] in the better part of a month wow I've also been in places where it's taking me a year

[00:24:12] to get registered and and so it really varies country by country a lot of that is also dependent on

[00:24:21] a few a few things right so I'm understanding the regulations understanding what is required

[00:24:26] but also just picking the right legal counsel is important and and and also in some ways

[00:24:35] being present on the ground yourself to be able to show up and push right yeah yeah um this is a

[00:24:45] very typical sort of like squeaky wheel gets the grease scenario um you have to be there you have to

[00:24:50] be present present you have to build relationships with people in these bureaucracies it's not a

[00:24:57] like Africa is not you know generally speaking it's not a place where you can sort of just like

[00:25:03] walk in be all business and walk out right a lot of times and in specific countries

[00:25:09] building a relationship building some level of rapport with the people that are helping you

[00:25:14] can be the hundred like but one 360 degree you know you do all 180 degree difference between

[00:25:21] having your papers sit at the bottom of a pile somewhere so just having it move along

[00:25:25] the process as well as possible so it's incredibly important to understand sort of where you are

[00:25:30] you know who you're dealing with make sure you're getting good advice and good partners that are

[00:25:36] are supporting you in that endeavor and also just if you are present showing up is super important

[00:25:42] if you are not making sure whoever is representing you on the ground it's showing up on a regular

[00:25:46] basis to navigate some of these barriers and answer questions that sometimes may just pop up out of

[00:25:52] nowhere um where they didn't exist the previous you know in the previous week or month right right

[00:25:58] this is going to be showing up but yeah with with a little bit of a clue right um a clue about

[00:26:04] the culture and the context and that you know like be there but be there doing the right things

[00:26:09] and saying the right things yeah well even I think the key word there non-awis the relationship

[00:26:14] right I mean I've seen that I did a lot of work throughout my career in Latin America you know

[00:26:19] Mexico Argentina Brazil so on and um relationship's a essential there I'm Julia probably seeing

[00:26:25] that right if you don't have a relationship you're going to have a hard time selling anything

[00:26:29] without sitting down with people you know face to face and getting to know them

[00:26:33] which I think I think it goes back to I believe it's some of the certainly culture but also the

[00:26:38] trust for the the business environment right the government the currency all that it it makes

[00:26:43] people want to know each other and know that a handshake uh with a real person and the actual

[00:26:49] person is is coming with that so might make just your perspective on this man what what what uh

[00:26:56] you've seen a lot of companies making the jump into uh into Africa what do you think or some

[00:27:00] of those key successes for those that uh that do it right yeah I'd like to expand upon what

[00:27:05] non-a said because yeah please if you are a let's just say again US company spanning into Africa

[00:27:11] and we'll say to do whatever for the first time and you think you're going to take standard

[00:27:16] US business practices and boot trap business and get it done yourself and you need to do

[00:27:21] it all yourself because your startup you were going to be deeply disappointed yes um that's what

[00:27:29] these value the value of local relationships and what I mean is the just the people that you

[00:27:35] you are going to need to employ professionals on the ground who know how to do how to get things done

[00:27:44] in that local and that local area and that's why that's where tapping into your peer network you

[00:27:52] know other similar organizations who are seeking to do something similar to you that's one but then

[00:27:57] or other organizations who are simply working in the same geography that have that have our

[00:28:03] struggling with similar challenges and or that the go to the go-to service providers in those

[00:28:09] who are well established who have done it time and time again and know specifically who you need to

[00:28:15] talk to and do not as point when you need to show up and specifically what you need to be to say

[00:28:20] I think is is all is all the more important when it when it comes to when it comes to these types of things

[00:28:28] as well as taking into account the the relative stability of the area that you are working in

[00:28:35] and how quickly things could potentially change and then what are your contingency plans if

[00:28:41] and when things do change? Yeah, I agree. One of the things I see a lot of large corporations

[00:28:48] stumble on I guess I'll say is you know they get used to feeling like they're a large coveted logo

[00:28:55] you know a well-known household name especially in their regions of heavy business focus

[00:29:03] your headquarters in North America or whatever and and even just being able to attract talent

[00:29:09] that can be that a suit right to navigate the environment companies repeatedly try to go into

[00:29:16] new areas whether it's with some bigger a small presence and finding folks that don't recognize

[00:29:22] their their business name as any big deal at all struggle to find the talent that they need to

[00:29:29] fill key roles and you're really talking key roles in the beginning right so I don't know if you see that as

[00:29:35] a big challenge but I often see companies used to saying well I'm so and so I know like of course

[00:29:40] that's a great point. You get a lot of weight and they carry dilly right by the time you get to some of these

[00:29:46] parts of the world. I mean I agree and I can think of one recently where an organization had

[00:29:53] once a new business in Burundi and you just had an absolutely baffled US based HR person that

[00:30:00] had clearly never been to Africa trying to figure it all out and trying to manage it from a command

[00:30:05] and control function from the US we see this I see this over 75% of the time and it is a

[00:30:14] tremendous exercise and frustration for that HR person and it's absolutely it's absolutely

[00:30:21] away for the organization to make a lot of mistakes instead of trying to do as much of it from in this case

[00:30:27] Burundi as possible but the very interesting thing to this kind of starts a little bit earlier because

[00:30:34] we're talking about we're talking about expanding into Africa you need to start with what is this going

[00:30:41] to look like? Do we actually need a legal present in this location do we actually need an entity?

[00:30:49] Are we going to have taxable events and are we going to be there long term because of the

[00:30:55] answer to some or any of those questions is no going to a stat getting registered establishing

[00:31:00] an entity paying all those costs and then paying to maintain that entity might not make sense

[00:31:07] and I know you've got some familiarity with this calculus. I feel like I really oversimplified this what

[00:31:12] would you have? I think that's exactly right and so it's really it comes down to really

[00:31:18] sort of understanding your exactly what you mentioned like which was like what are your objectives

[00:31:26] in set country? In one case even I'll take this step back and say as a company do you have a clear

[00:31:37] path to market? Have you tested your hypothesis and are you sure that you're going to have

[00:31:48] this just an example? If you're there to test the market do you know other ways in which you can do this

[00:31:54] without incurring all the upfront costs and sometimes frustration that may come with trends with

[00:32:00] establishing entity and do all these things or are there other ways in which you could get

[00:32:05] stay legally compliant test your concept and then decide if you want to basically establish rules.

[00:32:13] Yeah that's a great point I think you're saying a road map basically you need to road

[00:32:16] need a very clear road map it should be informed by people who have experience on the ground

[00:32:21] and it should be executed by people who are on the ground and understand the context in which

[00:32:26] they're operating in. Preferably people who have done this many many times

[00:32:32] and you'll see more success. Otherwise if you take sort of like the standard approach

[00:32:38] of I'm going to go into a country X I'm going to set up you know I'm going to get registered

[00:32:42] and then we're going to get this work done and it's going to take us X number of days

[00:32:46] whatever you however long you think is going to take in some cases you probably need to just

[00:32:50] like multiply that by like two or five. Yeah and and and and then there are not going to

[00:32:57] effects of what you're able to do legally and or not able to do if you don't scale that first

[00:33:04] hurdle right so you you didn't really get registered oh now can you get a bank account

[00:33:09] can you employ staff do you oh taxes are there exemptions that you you you or maybe eligible

[00:33:15] for but now you no longer are and and what are some of like the penalties and costs that

[00:33:21] could come your way if you choose to ignore the sort of legal regulatory framework and you know

[00:33:27] just proceed you know on a whim and so I think it's really comes down to understanding

[00:33:34] what it is you want to achieve you know what approach would best serve your purposes

[00:33:41] you know which specific locations or location do you want to test that in and what are your

[00:33:47] markets for success and then find out from people who are experts the quickest way to navigate

[00:33:54] sort of around those bureaucracy bureaucratic challenges etc so that when you when you have the

[00:34:03] thought there and make the case but you at least are compliant in a way that allows you to

[00:34:08] continue with your work without having it come to like a complete standstill. None I think

[00:34:14] of the number of times right back to your poor your poor well intention HR person you know dealing

[00:34:20] with bherundy and and I had a pharmaceutical fast growing woman who is very astute in the HR

[00:34:30] operations globally who came to me more than once and said oh you wouldn't even believe this but

[00:34:36] but but the company the HR organization recruiting organization just reached out to me and said hey

[00:34:41] I just hired an employee in black in x-country right and she's like what do you mean you just hired

[00:34:48] an employee there like we don't have pay well there we don't have an entity or a family of

[00:34:53] any earthly idea we have no business hiring an employee somewhere and it's crazy to think in today's

[00:34:59] that can happen but it absolutely does it happens with some you know some companies and organizations

[00:35:06] you wouldn't think it could possibly happen in but you know like panic and so is backwards

[00:35:12] and then you get them try to figure out and correct and and and and solve for all of those things

[00:35:17] that could have thoughtfully done a front or maybe even had to go to right I think that's what a lot

[00:35:22] of folks use and and a clear of record for or a strategic partner for is like who's my go to

[00:35:28] with this stuff happened right about to happen and one thing I just want to one point I want to

[00:35:32] make very quickly that ties something you said earlier Pete to what Julie just said and what Mike said

[00:35:37] is when you make these fumbling mistakes an environment where trust is built over time in most cases

[00:35:47] and and what that means the inverse of that is like if you break trust with your first step

[00:35:55] that could potentially essentially cast a shadow on you for the rest of your time there right yeah

[00:36:02] thanks for saying that yeah very expensive and very difficult to repair yeah and I think that's where

[00:36:09] the the lever right pulling that lever and having the that that is EO goble EOR

[00:36:13] having a partner that has those relationships and is constantly protecting that and making sure

[00:36:18] they're doing the right things that's a that's a great vehicle to be able to step into and know

[00:36:22] protected absolutely hey and I bet I bet the EOR is in developing you know and expanding and getting

[00:36:29] to the point of you know more and more global coverage I'm certain they step in it you know

[00:36:34] along the way as well I mean we all learn from our mistakes so it would be hard to imagine that

[00:36:39] you know even an organization who's gotten its DNA to figure this out and to make sure that they

[00:36:45] they are that go to when you first going into a space I mean there's a risk there that you're

[00:36:51] yeah you know Julie but one of the things I want to talk a little bit about kind of like trends

[00:36:55] and what you guys sort of see coming up or what you're starting to see and what you think maybe

[00:36:59] 2020-25 looks like but Julie I was it was interesting I was um prepping for this episode it was

[00:37:04] reading uh this week that Africa is forecast to create up to 1.5 million new business process

[00:37:10] outsourcing jobs over the next six years right at an 80% lower cost to run uh to that of Western

[00:37:16] countries all of which are significantly educated multi-lingual um you know and there's certainly

[00:37:23] an expectation that South Africa can continue to grow Kenya is obviously another key area for

[00:37:28] that Egypt we already know Nairobi I believe this is sort of the Silicon Valley of Africa but

[00:37:33] could we see more shared service centers maybe for ticket for languages you know popping up and

[00:37:38] say Egypt or for the region right I mean I don't know you see anything like that I'm gonna think

[00:37:43] for you both very well for the for the HRO world but I mean I think it certainly could right um the

[00:37:49] area where it'll be interesting to watch is how much of it happens through let's say the HRO

[00:37:55] channels where they have multiple clients they're caring for and so they're constantly thinking about

[00:38:00] where they are and what their location strategy is and as we know not everyone uses an

[00:38:05] TURROMOTAL so there's there's also a fair bit of movement in uh across companies to build your

[00:38:13] own shared service centers and so that's the area where I say you know I'm not opposed to do

[00:38:18] it yourself or is uh and some companies have a tremendous amount of experience with that but

[00:38:24] having that experience and having maybe done it in one region or one area and being able to assume

[00:38:30] that that's portable into other spaces just carries a lot of risk and um and so yeah I think we'll

[00:38:37] see folks coming at it from a couple of different knowledge points on vantage points right yeah

[00:38:42] the do it yourself or is in those that are using organizations that really are are supposed to have

[00:38:48] you know super knowledge about it and super experience yeah absolutely not not on Mike what

[00:38:54] you guys see as far as like maybe trends you're seeing now that you think you're going to carry on

[00:38:59] into 2025 like what do we what do you think we can expect for the marketplace uh this year

[00:39:04] that's why everything we just said about all the challenges with bureaucracy's and sometimes

[00:39:10] the needs to push paper etc I still think the digitization as as as a normal call movement

[00:39:17] on the continent um it's still very very much uh ripe to continue to disrupt and do very well

[00:39:25] particularly in the financial inclusion space um particularly around like the fintechs

[00:39:32] we're seeing some really exciting businesses coming out of of the continent on that front

[00:39:37] some of them have now become global giants right uh like flutter wave from Nigeria

[00:39:43] pay stack which was acquired by stripe um there there there so that's doing really well and I

[00:39:50] think that's going to continue to do very well and and bring more and more people who are unbanked

[00:39:58] and or previously just didn't we're not including the financial system into the financial

[00:40:04] system yeah as for example banks start to partner more and more with these startups

[00:40:10] and who are now becoming moving beyond like startups to become like really institutional players

[00:40:17] yeah on that front um the other sort of like big area that I've seen is in like ag tech uh

[00:40:24] you know agriculture just because they're cultural potential and the continent is huge but

[00:40:29] I think they've already been realized right yeah um and so that's another really big one that I

[00:40:35] think the digitization will drive and linked to that as our logistics and supply chain um I do

[00:40:42] think you're also going to see the emergence of some of those sort of like um offshore opportunities

[00:40:48] when I was working for an Egyptian startup um you know looking at potential expansion in the US

[00:40:56] one of the things that we did which opened my eyes to you know call center is like

[00:41:03] being even more affordable and and probably same level or sort of better in some cases than

[00:41:10] some of the counterparts in Asia and in other places um I'm starting to see sort of a lot of

[00:41:15] that also happening um increasingly uh in places like Egypt um in places like Kenya um and so those are

[00:41:22] just sort of three that I've caught my eye yeah I think will continue um probably at an even faster pace

[00:41:31] in 20s what you find yeah yeah hey and don't forget mining right the second largest diamond just uh

[00:41:37] was discovered recently I remember that I'm a Seattle Twitter a couple weeks ago like 2500

[00:41:41] characters on the crazy numbers wow right wow Mike what what about you man what are you seeing

[00:41:45] when it comes to like trends and what do you think kind of keep going for next year?

[00:41:50] Well not even next year but the next 15 years really this is yeah simply a case of demographic

[00:41:55] if you look at it the world the developed world let's call it by and large is as you've heard we are

[00:42:02] aging into obsolescence people are living longer but birth rates are also also declining um

[00:42:09] in historically places like China and things like that have been where labor has been out

[00:42:15] towards too because of very low cost labor however China is also aging rapidly as well now the

[00:42:21] interesting thing Africa is young now and Africa is only getting younger yeah so in terms of

[00:42:29] for the next probably 15 20 years or so what while the birth rate is still very high so what

[00:42:35] by necessity um expansion in Africa is going to continue and it is only going to increase

[00:42:42] BPO business process outsourcing absolutely tremendous opportunity but I think the only

[00:42:48] industries that will be limited are those that require a tremendous amount of postgraduate education

[00:42:57] and things along those lines because many African nations just lack the higher education systems to

[00:43:03] provide those folks with masters degrees and PhDs and all sorts of things like that so I would double

[00:43:09] down on exactly what non-a said despite their large parts of Africa still being conflict zones

[00:43:16] regulation being I would say increasingly a sliding scale and if what you are doing is compliant

[00:43:22] or not could really depend on who you know and how well you know all those things taken into account

[00:43:28] I think a very low cost of doing business in Africa and then for some industries countries

[00:43:36] a very low regulation is very good thing necessarily dictates that the business opportunity

[00:43:44] in Africa were only increased as the population continued to scale yeah yeah great by the numbers right

[00:43:53] I mean the numbers you can't change those yeah yeah yeah hey I have a selfish personal thing

[00:44:00] you know not I wanted to ask you because I have my cousin's wife is in Tanzania or comes from

[00:44:05] Tanzania her family does and uh Arusha I think showed up to my cousin Alice and uh I'm still

[00:44:12] being I missed I missed their wedding ceremony which was awesome and I'm such an international travel geek

[00:44:18] that I really regret that I missed that and so I didn't hear Tanzania on the list and um I'm guessing

[00:44:24] it's not one of the fast movers so Tanzania has some opportunities as well that could be great

[00:44:31] sort of I guess money makers or help kind of hold them into I mean you and so I'll go say I think

[00:44:37] on the mining side they're doing really well on the tourism side it's one of the best places

[00:44:43] to visit on the east coast of the continent but yes I'm still sort of I think that they're

[00:44:50] still the jury still out on how fast entrepreneurial plays will emerge from Tanzania because

[00:44:59] it's a pretty tightly related environment they do have and have had new leadership

[00:45:06] that's been pretty dynamic and very positive and and trying to move things in the right direction

[00:45:11] so even in the next four uh five years we'll start to see something come out of uh come

[00:45:16] outside and coming out of Tanzania uh just like we have in Kenya. Good to know what I think I'll just

[00:45:22] have to settle for the Tanzanite jury for the time being right? It's purple right?

[00:45:28] Yes it's beautiful beautiful it is I've seen it. No no you know I I could ask so many

[00:45:35] and we you know we're kind of coming to time here but uh any advice like or any tips or any

[00:45:41] lessons learn that you would share just to sort of close this out for folks out there maybe navigating

[00:45:46] a footprint in Africa already or headed that way any sort of inside baseball you can share

[00:45:51] or so to speak that would uh close things out. Yeah I think before before I get to that one thing

[00:45:57] I very much want to be a chime in on is as the point Mike made about the continent getting younger

[00:46:01] yeah and the point he made about uh you know higher education and somewhat challenges there.

[00:46:07] Thankfully a lot of folks are navigating that virtually right but not enough right because

[00:46:14] not enough people have access to the kinds of sort of technology that you need and maybe sometimes

[00:46:19] even the financials that you need to be able to access some of these um international sort of virtual

[00:46:25] masters degrees and so forth. And so it becomes a really great opportunity for

[00:46:32] organizations of people who are looking to get into the ed tech space providing people with like

[00:46:40] coding bootcamp skills other things that will help translate into meaningful

[00:46:48] make people meaningful productive yeah doesn't very quickly um without the additional burden

[00:46:54] of time and cost for like a master's degree which may not always be necessary in some of the

[00:47:00] if for some of the work that is now you know the tech industry is now generating. I think

[00:47:05] would be also a really big boost to uh to the economy so that particular business and their investment

[00:47:10] uh if they would get it done uh done correctly uh because one of the things that I worry about is

[00:47:16] the same blessing or advantage that we have with youth could become a curse very quickly

[00:47:23] if those youth are not um engaged in ways that make them productive and and ensures that it

[00:47:30] keeps them out trouble basically. But in terms of sort of advice to uh you know and on this

[00:47:39] and you wrap things up so everybody knows that the Chinese plan like several years you know sometimes

[00:47:48] they century in advance um and so it's all and right now they're really looking for ways to assert

[00:47:54] that their authority and and and one of the ways they're doing this by the way it's by going to

[00:47:59] sub-saren Africa so in almost every African country today you have increasing investment and

[00:48:06] presence from Chinese individuals and the Chinese government because the opportunity there is huge

[00:48:13] and in many cases we start of getting our own way um by you know not doing the work of trying to

[00:48:23] understand what sort of some of these challenges and risks are getting the right people to line

[00:48:28] up behind us to help us navigate them and then going out there to take advantage of the opportunities

[00:48:34] and we let those barriers you know deter us from actually going in and I think if you're looking

[00:48:41] at the Chinese are doing now and what they're hoping to do next 10 15 20 30 100 years it speaks

[00:48:48] to the opportunities in Africa and the needs are just going there navigated with an open mind

[00:48:55] and eyes wide open to be able to make sure they are able to maximize your opportunities that are

[00:49:02] are currently present and so I'd say it's really about you know just if you have if you want to go

[00:49:09] don't hesitate right find somebody who knows about this you know who has expertise locally

[00:49:14] who knows what they're doing in there talk to them and just get going start right

[00:49:20] not learning start understanding um and then making informed decision that's supposed to allow

[00:49:25] in sort of like some of the tropes and and just like the general you know misunderstandings

[00:49:31] in in some cases getting your way though the other thing is also that the places that Microsoft

[00:49:37] talked about as far as like conflict written you know where for in some cases you know regulation

[00:49:44] can be a slightly on a sliding scale etc are very real and do not downplay the risks of investing

[00:49:50] in these places or sort of going to these places make sure again that you have the right people

[00:49:58] informing your approach to ensure that you're successful because they are people who are there

[00:50:03] that are successful yes it's not a complete sort of as sorry to use the words crap shoot

[00:50:10] but you do need to know how to navigate those environments successfully and find the right

[00:50:15] people to help you do that yeah it's great advice might anything to close us out any tips

[00:50:19] and inside baseball you want to share the to help people yeah and while well not not did

[00:50:24] did circle back till let's call it that the areas that still have active conflict in Africa

[00:50:29] those areas are the minority but I do need to underscore it not a said doing business there is

[00:50:35] one thing but also being uninformed and and for me and sending people there especially

[00:50:41] an ignorant international traveler like Mike or somewhere along those lines sending me to

[00:50:47] goma it's probably not the best idea yeah and you know once we recognize the business opportunity

[00:50:54] we're going to have an Africa we're just going to go see a need to be mindful I would say about

[00:50:59] the physical security risks I would say one and as well as as well as the the aspect of doing

[00:51:05] business there I will say those areas are are in the minority and it's not not talked about a lot

[00:51:10] there's places like and and Nairobi and all sorts of places like that are incredibly business friendly

[00:51:15] it's well understood and things alone those lines so by no means should you write off the entire

[00:51:20] continent because you watch the movie blood diamond one like it's not go let's not go that far

[00:51:27] I would say it's all about if you can and I know it's you know capitalism we want to work

[00:51:34] to the first opportunity we see if you can slow down for just a little while and at least identify

[00:51:39] the right partners there that will one help you figure out your strategy okay so we wanted something new

[00:51:47] we've got to be in Africa okay great how long how long you're going to be there because that's

[00:51:52] going to dictate if you need to form an entity and then if you need to form an entity find a partner

[00:51:59] a law firm a global expansion firm or something like that that's done it before and can help you

[00:52:03] okay well we don't want to hire anyone we do want to use an employer of record it find an employer of

[00:52:10] record that is a specialist in Africa yes because as as what Nana has it from first hand experience

[00:52:16] the environment can differ so drastically from one country to the next that you know necessarily

[00:52:25] the provider that someone knew that someone knew in Angola might not serve you well in Somalia or something

[00:52:33] alone those lines and so it's easy for us from America it's a very monolithic perspective oh yeah it's

[00:52:38] just Africa and that is if that's the mindset you have you are going to learn some hard lessons

[00:52:45] and I'm not trying to deter anyone but I think given the very geography and how many different

[00:52:52] nations and how many languages are spoken and the fact that the continent is still in many

[00:52:57] and it regards still recovering from colonialism you need to proceed with a certain amount of caution

[00:53:04] to make sure you do it as right as possible the first time you are entering that market yeah absolutely

[00:53:10] what's that saying you can if you want to go go alone if you want to go far go together and yeah

[00:53:15] I think this is very very true for the emerging markets you definitely want help so general this has been

[00:53:20] outstanding I could keep asking you questions all day I'm so excited to come to Africa I hope we get

[00:53:25] together in Mauritius at some point I know that's a beautiful tropical place not exactly the

[00:53:29] continent itself but an island but yeah I'd love to get there got a couple clients now and just yeah

[00:53:34] pleasure working with you guys and thank you so much for coming on Nana where can we connect with you any

[00:53:39] I'll throw in the links in the description but where can folks get in touch with you if they buy

[00:53:44] I mean I'm a linkedin's probably where I'm most responsive and so you know feel free to just ping

[00:53:50] me on linkedin I usually respond and yeah I'm not as active on Twitter although I'm looking to be

[00:53:59] no worries we'll help you we'll help you Julia and I are our on Twitter well at excuse me yeah

[00:54:05] follow me on a Twitter I know well thank you so much man I'm gonna throw those links up there for you

[00:54:09] Mike what about you how can folks get in touch with you linkedin is also good for me and you can

[00:54:14] also find my contact information on the Baldwin group website for email etc awesome awesome

[00:54:21] well this has been great guys thank you so much it's very informative I think maybe maybe you

[00:54:25] need to come back every year and give us an Africa update right well we'll talk Africa see

[00:54:29] what's going on maybe we need an emerging market sort of series going on so I love it thank you so

[00:54:34] good seeing you guys Julia good to see you as always thank you forever guys