Influence for Impact with Special Guest Bart van der Storm

[00:00:07] Welcome everyone to another episode of HR and Payroll 2.0. I'm Pete Tiliakis and as always I'm joined by the legendary Julie Fernandez. Welcome Julie. Thanks Pete. Yeah, happy to be in sunny times. Yes It is it's what we're getting there is almost summer. I don't know technically summer but

[00:00:24] Yet, but maybe by the time this comes out. Hey, let's introduce we have a cool guest today Yes, back to you. Yeah excited to have Bart van der Storm global payroll strategist expert and managing partner at the payroll mines So welcome Bart. So so excited to have you

[00:00:40] Yeah, thank you Pete and thank you Julie. It's it's exciting to be here and yeah looking forward to our conversation Yeah Look we wanted to get you on to talk about your new book how to build influence and make an impact as a global

[00:00:53] payroll professional which I think is incredibly well timed especially with what we The topics we were we were talking about and the work we were doing at the executive summit there at payroll org

[00:01:03] Congress I know you and I both got to talk for the source by daily pay Shortly, so I was like I've got to have Bart come on and we got to dig deeper into this book because I think

[00:01:13] It's just super well timed. Hey and look at any book is back cover starts with unlock the secrets On my nightstand I have to unlocks me some secrets here

[00:01:25] Yes, and I can read here. I've been reading your book Bart like like we were talking before the show about ADD So here's how I read sometimes I got your book I was so excited I just started like

[00:01:34] Looking at the chapters and I just started to dive into the ones that I was most excited about and I went headfirst Into the influence one which I really want to get into so I've been bouncing all around

[00:01:43] I need to go back and read it from the beginning I'm like starting with the prologue right or the like not even chapter Yeah, well look it's great though and and and really congratulations Bart

[00:01:58] So I want to get into that but first we are we ask all of our guests a very important question We ask everyone how did you get into payroll and why on earth do you stay?

[00:02:07] Yeah, and I think everybody gives the same answer. You know, I didn't I didn't choose payroll I think to pay will chose me but yeah, it's also as referenced in my book You know, it's I was a young young guy young boy

[00:02:19] must have been 13 14 and my my father he owned an accounting firm and You know, he was always of like there was no such thing as doing nothing as one of his children's for one of his Children so he saw me wasting my time

[00:02:34] He said you know what come here and he taught me any other things about accounting and how accounting worked and specifically in the Netherlands Etc etc. And one day, you know

[00:02:43] He brought me he brought in a piece of software called micro loan micro loan loan is the name for wages in the You know what I've been outsourcing all our clients is payroll to a third party

[00:02:55] But I've decided we're gonna do it ourselves and that I've decided that you're gonna be the one who's going to figure it all Out so he gave me the box with the software and back then we had these nice floppies

[00:03:05] I don't know probably a lot of audience don't even know what it is Yeah, you know You have to load five or five floppy's and then hoping everything would work and then you know

[00:03:13] And there was the payroll system, but it had no configuration. It had no no no collective labor agreements Nothing other than just the core wage types and wage codes that you need in order to be able to run a pair on the

[00:03:25] Netherlands and he just said, you know I don't care how long it takes but you figure it out and by the time you get comfortable and you know Let me know and I must admit from there onwards, you know, it was my it was my my forte and

[00:03:38] And I really loved it. I obviously like everybody else. I went from Dutch payroll into Dutch payroll for international company, so suddenly I got involved in mobility questions and all kinds of discussions of benefits including equity

[00:03:56] That got me into international payroll Benelux Europe and then before I knew it it was globally addicted in that, you know for me Everybody who asked where everybody says to me, you know, I I don't see me doing anything else than HR payroll for the rest of my

[00:04:10] career and It's the it's the ability to be in the forefront of everything It's the the fact that you're in the middle of the action of everything meaning

[00:04:19] I don't think a lot of people realize this but there's nothing much not much that can happen in an organization or in a Company that does not touch payroll. So if you like my book Suggests have built influence in your organization

[00:04:33] It actually means you'll be you'll be at the front seat and you'll be having a seat at the table of any Discussions whether it is acquisition whether it's downsizing up scaling whether it is divestitures or or acquisitions

[00:04:46] It's it's all of that and you know for me guys, that's that's the action that I'd like to be in and secondary I love the fact that it's a it's a profession where you're gonna be looked at on

[00:04:57] At least a monthly basis for most of the countries in the world Some countries like us obviously it could be monthly. It could be daily could be weekly biweekly But you know, there will be an audience Telling you whether you've done it right or wrong

[00:05:11] instantly because clearly you're involved in their pay in their payroll and you know getting people paid and people's pay is very personal to them and And therefore if something's wrong, they'll let you know and that's exactly what I love about it. Yeah. Yeah, it's a great story

[00:05:27] I love that you were kind of thrown into the to the to the payroll pool and had to swim You know, I'm still picturing the gasp like I I nearly gasped audibly at the idea of handing payroll Over to a 13 or 14. Oh my god

[00:05:42] And a software that probably still needed quite a bit of customizations Yeah, but you know, that's the that's the way my father raised me He raised me to just take a chance and he said listen, there's nothing off-limits

[00:05:56] So, you know, we did there were more people working there. There were people physically physically and lawyers There were people that knew a lot about rules You said there's nothing that we don't know within this organization as a group

[00:06:07] So and even if we don't know we'll find somebody who knows and just and to be honest I was I was really into it, you know I was really into discovering it myself and you know, my father's character my characters

[00:06:18] They they are the same which means we don't go along that much You know, we're too stubborn for each other So it meant like either he was going to deal with it or I'm gonna deal with it But not both of us gonna deal with it

[00:06:28] So yeah, it was a and I must admit again for me. It was the best thing that could have happened You know what's awesome about that

[00:06:35] I mean just that unique experience bar getting into it is you probably didn't feel like you knew much or anything when you started and It forced you to make those relationships those stakeholder relationships that sometimes people who go in feeling like they know their trade

[00:06:50] You know don't naturally reach out and try to figure out how how to form those relationships And so you like that was front-and-center for you. Just yeah And I think also what also it taught me and but I only realized it when I started to

[00:07:05] To become more senior in my in my profession, but also writing the book Which was one of my aha moments as well, which we will talk about a bit later But I've learned that being young and being the youngest in the office

[00:07:19] the only way for me to have people trust me was by showing them my capabilities and my abilities and Because I didn't didn't get it on merit I didn't get it on age

[00:07:29] I didn't get it on the fact that that was in the profession for over a couple of years I really had to earn it every piece of the way and and that really helped me

[00:07:39] Understand that you know, you you need to be you need to you really need to you know Take your precision and own it Yeah, that's a great point

[00:07:47] That's a guy and I think there's a great theme to that that we're gonna get into about how payroll needs to begin More I think historically we've been led a bit too much and maybe it's time or it is time

[00:07:58] I think for payroll to really step up and start to be more of a leader So I love that I love that path man And I love the way you describe that right like you didn't pick payroll payroll sort of picked you

[00:08:07] I think there's a lot of us. Yeah your dad Dad filled your time is really all he did. He just filled your time and you chose it, right? But yeah

[00:08:19] Yeah, I loved it in the fact that he also renumerated me for it and was was obviously a nice a nice Incentive to it as well because I think everybody just need a little bit money and apart from all of that

[00:08:32] You know just for again for maybe some of the younger people listening is and and I'm sure Julie and you Pete You had the same but in our time when we were that age or maybe when we in our 20s

[00:08:41] There was no such thing as internet or mobile phones or all that stuff Did not exist. So it was a completely different different era and In that fact, but I do I would say I don't think payroll changed much over the years

[00:08:55] And I also don't think the the dynamic of people change that much over the years It's just that the environment the space of things the speed of things and the expectations

[00:09:06] Increased a lot that I would also say that I think with the with the increase of of of mobile mobility Such as mobile phones online internet, etc Our ability to go global or international was born as well because before that it was all local

[00:09:22] You know payroll was local and I still believe there was local Although the whole the entire universe expects us to be they will to be global Yeah, so it's it's that's where it also stems from if you ask me. Yeah exactly. No, I completely agree

[00:09:35] We could actually probably do an episode on that. Maybe we should Come back Yeah, exactly, yeah, I know I know so let's talk I love a good origin story Tell me about the book. Like how did how did it come about? What was the motivator?

[00:09:48] Where did you what was the aha moment that gave you to come and come and get it going? Yeah, so first of all, I want to give credits to Anita Lehtink. I'm sure you guys know yes Clearly she was one of my events. So very short

[00:10:03] I have a consulting firm in HR payroll global HR and payroll and that we also we also host a couple of events every once in a while and in one of those events Anita was there as a speaker and she just launched her book and

[00:10:15] While she was signing all her books for all the odd elder people that were in the event She was basically telling to me She said to me part if you ever get a chance and if you ever have the appetite any energy

[00:10:25] Go and ride one, you know, so that really set me at that one. I think that same week I said, okay open the open the blank page and just started that jotting down my ideas jotting down my narrative, etc and I think you know

[00:10:39] The reason why I wrote the book also is the reason why I started my organization and there's there's two main topics that I think Are correlating and are also coming back into the book

[00:10:49] One is every time I was asked for a consulting job because I was a self-employed contractor for over 22 25 years Moved from company to company always tasked with you know, we all we all know how it works

[00:11:01] You know, they want you to be a strategist. They want you to be operationally biased They want you to be an analyst, but they also want you to make sure that you communicate Well, they want you to know all the numbers

[00:11:11] But they also want you to project manager in the entire thing So in fact, they just want you to do everything and they're hoping to be able to get all of that out of This one person being me now

[00:11:22] You know, even though I might be able to do all of that stuff You know my one of my main slogans is always like I can do everything but not anything or I can do anything But not everything is the right way to say it

[00:11:32] So I can do one thing I can do two things but asking me to do everything is Not always possible. So the reason why I started payroll minds was to help organizations to understand but also to provide them with the level of resources

[00:11:47] That they need to be able to be successful whether it is through a strategy session Whether it is through the execution of the strategy whether it is through operation So in other words, you need a healthy and a diverse mix of the resources

[00:12:01] Similar to let's say how you build a house if you build a house You're gonna find yourself a contractor and that contractor will be bringing plumbers carpenters

[00:12:10] Plasters painters. It's not like there's one person to do it does it all and for those who have built a house before Everybody will probably have had once in their lives to think I'll hire this one person who'll do it all

[00:12:22] They'll soon learn that although it might be possible It's first of all very slow second of all that person is not highly skilled in everything and third of all you're highly

[00:12:31] Dependent to this one person. So my vision for payroll minds was let me bring a one-stop shop a an organization that can bring all the skills together and provide those organizations with those skills and

[00:12:44] Second of all, which you know, which is whilst I was always involved in these projects there's always a highly level of highly skilled HR and payroll folk within that organization But they are not recognized as highly skilled people. They're not recognized as high potentials

[00:13:02] In fact, most of the organizations don't even didn't even really understand these people to begin with and so What typically happened is if I if I was being tasked with the project manager role and they told me listen formulate your Make sure you got a team together

[00:13:15] I would always make sure that I at least half of the people that I would work within the project was coming from the organization and You know what happens a lot is either CFO or the CHRO whatever would say why?

[00:13:28] Why are you choosing Johnny? You know, he's we don't we're not sure about it That's it. Listen, leave me to it But you know, let me let me deal with this and then half a year later

[00:13:36] They would come back to me saying Jesus that Johnny guy such a such a highly skilled individual Oh my god, we didn't even know he was able to do all of that and said that's right You didn't know this you didn't notice it

[00:13:48] So to me those two things came together and I said listen I want to build an organization that can find the place who could be an incubator for all those highly talented people Who need a new chance who need a new gig who needs some?

[00:14:00] something new that can elevate their careers into new heights similar to that I have to go through and Second of all, I want to be that company that can provide organizations with the with the ideas of how do you really?

[00:14:12] Change your payroll strategy. How do you really work on the on the execution? And how do you really ensure your business as usual is captured in a sustainable future proof? process and While building my organization today of tears down the road is okay

[00:14:29] You know, we're making lots of headway. We've grown like double digits year over year Now it's time for me to to cumulate it all into a book and to share with the world

[00:14:38] You know my thoughts on this and particularly I wasn't interested in providing another book about how to You know do an RFP or how to implement the strategy or whatever My book was more about how to how to have an influence as a payroll individual

[00:14:53] So it's written towards the payroll individuals or the payroll professionals, but I'm also hoping that leadership who actually Get a chance to pick up the book will learn what they need to do and how they need to

[00:15:04] Establish their team in HR and payroll for them to be successful and for them to be able to rely on that unique individual and unique group of individuals that actually You know are at the heart of any organization because you know, of course many people say without sales

[00:15:20] There would not be an organization my stake on it is without payroll that organization would not exist at all So fact, yeah, that's my that's my that's my my two cents on that Pete. I agree. I agree

[00:15:32] I mean look I think the latter that you described there is probably to me the most important thing in these books in my report I recently did in other efforts that are going on out there to make

[00:15:44] Executives more aware of what I would say is money left on the table, right? I mean you're if you're you know, it's one thing to say well, okay We don't want to invest in payroll because we don't believe it can be a competitive advantage

[00:15:56] Okay, fine, but understand that if you don't you are definitely at a disadvantage In a lot of ways, right and so I think there's there's got to be this sort of education of the executives of the c-suite to say

[00:16:06] Look, you need to see this differently. There's a paradigm shift here that's gone on And it's not bookkeeping anymore. It's not simple processing and printing checks and it's got to be created or treated with much more respect and Support to elevate it, right? So I love all that

[00:16:23] Yeah You know one thing that I think about especially with the title which so obviously points to the payroll mind and the impact you're hoping To have on practitioners. I really think that this is also something that I hope talent leaders and

[00:16:39] Business partners looking at coaching and just the angle that you have on developing talent That's internal to your organization, but might need a you know, the type of leadership and strategy You know guidance to be able to shine and show what they can do is

[00:16:56] Is one of the most valuable and cool angles of your part of your book Bart? And I would love to see I would love to see folks take it as kind of a guide guide in figuring out I probably have some I'm talent rich

[00:17:10] Actually, I'm probably talent rich and folks will leave if they don't feel challenged and how do I begin to get them? Elevated to a new place in their career and seeing their worth very clearly and feeling the influence that they can have Yeah, yeah completely completely agree

[00:17:27] Julie completely agree. Yeah, Bart, you know like we think about like I think about how the expectations of payroll has changed Right. It's it's I mean, and I'd love to hear your point of view kind of out there on the front lines

[00:17:38] But are we really are we really doing enough to actually? We're putting more expectations I feel like on payroll saying do more, you know be more strategic We do the same thing to HR be more strategic deliver more value

[00:17:51] But do we actually even set them up to do that or enable that? I don't know that we are I mean clearly from the work the research that I just did It doesn't look to me like we are giving payroll the best chance to succeed

[00:18:03] We're just sort of saying we want all of this from them but oh by the way, go ahead and continue to do it with outdated technology and and And without any proactive help, you know what I mean?

[00:18:13] And I don't know how that's gonna be how those two reconcile I think if you're gonna if we're gonna change the expectations as they as they have We've got to set them up for success and help them meet those expectations, right?

[00:18:26] Yeah, you know, you know be and you know You know if we ever get to work together on a on a on an assignment you'll you'll see for me, you know Thinking about and actually guys a bit of scoop of already a scoop for you guys

[00:18:42] I'm already cooking a new book, but um, it's it's it's a you know, for me strategy is is a loaded work You know, what does it mean?

[00:18:50] And most people who think about strategy let's talk about all the new new stuff that's out there and let's think about something completely Different than what we're doing and but in my mind

[00:19:00] Especially if you are in a mission critical payroll process and you're owning it in my mind strategy needs to be about What are we supposed to do and are we doing that and how do we fix what we're supposed to do? That's also a strategy

[00:19:14] It's about making sure that what you need to be able to do gets fixed first Then let's look at what else can we do and that could be another layer of strategy and then you can think about

[00:19:24] Where would do we want to be the next four or five years and then? strategize that but the first strategy that you need to come up with is to make sure that whatever you're doing today is done properly

[00:19:35] Yeah agreed, you know even Julie I don't know if you saw this but I published a micro series of blogs that Anne Marie V wrote Yeah, did you see did you see the one she wrote which I and Bart

[00:19:48] I think this is perfect for this conversation is is She wrote this one and I'm gonna I'm gonna probably say the words wrong I can't remember how she exactly stated it

[00:19:56] But she talked about not feeling strategic not feeling as though she could be or I don't say allowed to be I can't Exactly she used but the point was is almost like a belief that she wasn't strategic as a as a payroll leader

[00:20:08] I mean if you look at her resume, you can clearly tell she is but Obviously that that was coming culturally from the organization or the environment and I think we've always sort of kept payroll as a less-than

[00:20:20] Sort of group again. It's just bookkeeping. You're just printing checks. What could possibly be so important about it It's kind of the attitude and and and it sort of creates this environment where payroll doesn't believe they can influence

[00:20:32] They don't believe they can be strategic or that they even should be or deserve to be maybe I don't know if I'm if that's if I'm putting words in

[00:20:40] Are we doing enough to champion them to allow them to get that athleticism out of them, right and and be be there Yeah But but that's exactly my point and by the way guys

[00:20:51] Anna Marie obviously she and I actually started at the same company many many many many years ago So and also don't want to say anything else But you know Anna Marie Anita Bart, you know

[00:21:03] Max, you know, we're all Dutch people. So maybe the world runs around the Netherlands I don't know but never mind, but it's it's it's it's well, you guys are calling payroll loans. So that's Don't tease me Pete don't tease me no, but it's it's it's

[00:21:19] Again going back to the to the idea when people think about strategy They think about all the new the newest things when i'm behind and and if I take this a couple of levels up guys Whenever I consult with an organization

[00:21:33] um, the first thing i'm trying to establish with them is Okay, if the if if ground zero is maybe ground zero is not the right word in this sentence But if the zero is where you're supposed to be

[00:21:47] Then let's figure out where you really are and most organizations are minus four minus five And then but they're their their strategy thoughts come from zero and they think upwards to plus five

[00:21:58] And i'm saying well, listen, okay, let's we can work about end state. We can think about you know, whatever you want to achieve Let's talk about artificial intelligence. Everybody's buzzing about art. What does it mean? It's still to be figured out for payroll, etc, etc

[00:22:10] But to me like okay if you want to go there, let's go back You're not at zero. You're minus five Which means we first have to get to minus four minus three minus two minus one zero Now you're ready to get to one two, three, four five

[00:22:23] So when you are in payroll and when you are new in an organization and you're being tasked as a process owner To run payroll to be responsible for payroll Make sure that your leadership that your your stakeholders everybody involved in payroll understands where you believe

[00:22:39] The current status of your of your payroll organization is because the strategy you have to outline From there onwards is to identify where how do I get to the level where we're supposed to be? Yeah Yeah

[00:22:52] And then and that to me if you bring that discussion or the strategical discussion up to that level And you're able to move the needle towards the zero then clearly the organization will see the progress and starts to recognize you

[00:23:05] As that thought leader or as that influencer they need in order to to build on Build upon towards the towards the next steps Yeah, absolutely absolutely Yeah, and so the aha moment also wanted to highlight, you know just from the from the book guys

[00:23:21] So what I again and I think I alluded to this earlier Starting my career at 14 with my dad is what I just learned by writing the book

[00:23:31] And I obviously asked quite some people especially specialist people in my organization read the book and see if it makes sense is that I just didn't know or they didn't realize that the things that were so clear and so obvious to me

[00:23:45] Were so uncommon or were so aha moment for them Yeah, so what I consider to be normal they consider to be as groundbreaking. So for me it was like, holy cow So what I assume to be? Something that is normal behavior Apparently isn't

[00:24:04] Yeah, yeah agreed agreed or at least common. I mean the the they're in collaboration, right? Yeah, you have your your ways and your lens where things are, you know Just in focus for you from that perspective

[00:24:17] And like I I noticed that even just in the very beginning of your book where you're talking about confidence And and i'm reading it thinking some ways i'm married that I don't know if I lead with that

[00:24:26] And then and then immediately afterwards saying well, what if confidence is it, you know, that's not your lens What if that's that's not something that's natural to you and And that's how we all learn from each other. Honestly

[00:24:38] Yeah, and end up in the same circles because we find that we you have something really cool that I want to learn from And and vice versa and uh, that's part of the secret right of of elevating

[00:24:48] Ourselves across the industry. Yeah. Yeah, and I think julie that in that stems also Uh, I think you know, we were making fun a little bit about people being add or having ocd or having

[00:25:01] You know having a sheer sheer volume of uh of uh of what is it? Being autistic The thing is when I talk about confidence guys, don't get me wrong I'm not expecting everybody to to be 100 sure because from that perspective that leads into

[00:25:19] Into perfection and and that that's that stops you from progressing if you're if you're trying to be perfect Listen, you're never going to be perfect I've never been perfect and i've never had a perfect implementation in my entire career

[00:25:33] So what what does confidence that means mean to me is and I like the I like a bit of an anecdote out of the series Billions, I don't know if you've seen billions

[00:25:42] but it's uh, it's there's one guy there and he gets asked all the time when he gives uh, he gives the leader a A perspective on whether we should invest in something and then are you certain? He says i'm not certain but i'm not uncertain

[00:25:56] So so my point my point of saying it is You know make sure that under the circumstance with the tools you have available to you that you've eliminated as much as possible The potential of of it not getting it right because you'll never know for sure

[00:26:13] You'll be 100 right and maybe for people listening from the outside in thinking hold on Are you telling me peros being run with this level of uncertainty? Then I would say well

[00:26:22] I'm sure that anyone who signs up on a payroll is certain that what he or she has seen Is correct, but you'll never be 100 certain Never so confidence is about making sure That you you you've done everything you can within the within the tools you have available

[00:26:39] To make sure that what has been done is done correctly. Yeah, absolutely Well, there's so many variables in payroll, right? I mean it just so many they're out of their control and you're right

[00:26:48] It it's at the mercy of people putting things in it can never you know, yeah, no i'm with you Flashbacks dna drives us to that hundred to perfection. Yes, it has to be perfection. Yeah Yeah, yeah, no agreed

[00:27:01] So so bar one of the areas that I really honed in on was the influence part of this because I think that's probably My opinion it might be the hardest part

[00:27:10] About being a payroll manager and really our payroll leader and trying to move the ball in your organization Because I think you're moving it against a wave of ignorance sometimes and I always say this with with with respect

[00:27:22] I don't mean that ignorance and stupidity. I mean ignorance and just not knowing I think there's a lot of executives and and really hr folks that just I don't really know what actually goes on in payroll

[00:27:31] Um, but how do you how do you influence like where do you start? because again I think julie touched on this a little bit like not everybody Is good at kind of coming out of their shell and doing some of that stuff But what's your advice there?

[00:27:42] Like what do you start if you're if you're if you're really trying to do that in your work? Yeah first of all and again coming back to the reason why I started my company and also write this book is like

[00:27:53] You know some people or a lot of people may may never be very strong in in being able to articulate or specifically talk about You know what they believe should be done or or when they have a seat at the table to feel comfortable

[00:28:09] Sharing their ideas to leadership or or the mid-level layers So that's one thing to recognize and my advice is always like if you're not comfortable Make sure you bring somebody along who has the ability to speak or has really understand, you know Or can advocate or can sponsor

[00:28:27] in that area, but first and foremost for me it's about Making sure you know your Your data, you know, you're on you understand your own You know your own perspective well enough

[00:28:40] So I think one of the things in my early in my career that back then really really got me upset but later in my career was really something that I live by is

[00:28:50] One of my mentors told me listen bard if you cannot explain it. You simply don't understand it yourself. Yeah Yeah, and I was like, what do you mean? I don't understand this I fully understand it. Well, but if you cannot explain it

[00:29:03] So I think it's important to to realize that and and I think Matt met the mat teachers have the same issue and some of these more more difficult Things to learn is if

[00:29:17] People who teach math they just don't understand why the people who they need who need to be thought don't understand them It's it's a it's a way of saying in the netherlands it has a particular word

[00:29:27] But in english, I don't know but my point is you need to understand your audience You need to make sure you you understand what they what they believe what they what they know You need to make sure you have your facts yourself together

[00:29:39] If you don't have the facts then make sure you gather those facts And third of all, you need to be able to speak towards your Towards the the acronym of the people that you're talking to so when you're talking to finance people you may have a need

[00:29:51] Another discussion and when you speak to hr folks And and last but not least you have to have earned their trust And to me the trust doesn't come with everything is 100 accurate What you do or everything is what you do is is is perfect

[00:30:06] It means you have to earn their trust that you live by your worth that you bring forward the the facts That you'll be clear about those things. You're not sure of And also that you're you're asking the right questions

[00:30:18] Um in the end of the day influence is not Knowing everything influence is making sure you bring people along and that you can guide them towards the the real questions that need answers

[00:30:28] Yeah. Yeah, I love that you mentioned too in there the evergreen legacy of influence. What what what did you mean by that exactly? In the book Yeah, so the evergreen legacy of influence again, it's it's you never know Let me turn let me turn this around when you

[00:30:48] especially when you're Trying to win business or when you're trying to win your audience the stakeholders in your organization You never really understand Or you never know exactly unless you've been with the organization for many years and then still you could be

[00:31:04] You could be left in the you could be you could lost in the left field is You never know who really is influencing who or who really is making the right the decisions yeah, and so um and and

[00:31:18] And then even and once you get to know or once you do know It's that somebody could be promoted out or could be promoted up or could be promoted in a completely different area And then your whole game starts over again

[00:31:28] So who's listening to who who's influencing who what's being talked about? So the the evergreen legacy of influence is it's it's not necessarily the one who owns the decision who Who needs to be influenced? and and and I think you know in a in a um in a

[00:31:47] family setting, you know The children always know flawlessly whether to ask something to dad or whether to ask something to mom You know, it's it's who has the influence for which decision?

[00:31:58] Um, it's um, it's it's it's also me trying to say to people like, you know, don't uh, take it too seriously In the sense of you know, you'll learn along the way

[00:32:07] You'll find out and be adaptive and be agile towards any question that comes your way in the discussions there to be Uh, they're also to be funeral and say guys. I don't know the answer or you know guys or girls

[00:32:20] I I need to discover I need to find out Because as soon as you start Smart talking or as soon as you start to

[00:32:29] Fumble your way into an argument or as soon as you try to win an argument that you cannot win because you don't have the facts You're going to lose trust and I think the the common denominator

[00:32:39] in all of this influence and in in in making making an impact is That people need to trust You with the uh with the task and that doesn't mean these people Are certain that you'll know Uh everything you need but they need to be certain about you

[00:32:58] Going down the entire uh life cycle of the entire process To become the one who actually knows What to do when to do it how to do it. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely So what sorry go ahead julie i was just going to say I think there's something too for

[00:33:14] Uh as you learn or or feel influence right and you and practice it or you you know You learn it from someone or you teach it to yourself Uh in certain forms about being able to recognize it in others and

[00:33:28] Um, you know an element of success, uh for me has been understanding influence recognizing influence and then being able to Collaborate with other influencers right in meaningful ways To move mountains and I just think that that's how it's done. Right?

[00:33:46] Yeah, that's where the data comes into yeah and the data comes in there and it also means that You know, there's plenty of room for for people to grow their individual influence, you know factor if there's such a thing right and and um

[00:34:01] And and rise and gains that as real core competency in their own career path and exercise it in different ways in different places Uh is is actually fun fun journey when you when you think when you do it knowingly Yeah, exactly

[00:34:17] It's it's you know similar, you know, sometimes I use the analogy of All right So let's you know here in the netherlands and here in europe we obviously it's all about soccer or football We call it big football is something else in the u.s

[00:34:28] But it's when you when you one day or your kid decides I want to play soccer then You know, you don't start in the champions league Yes, you start in the in the in the town The town you live in then you start to learn to play

[00:34:43] And then you move up the ladder you move up the levels you become better and then you your whole team gets to play Into a different league and then the higher league and and then you get to the nationals and then you know

[00:34:53] You might even so the point of it is also that you know people just need to also allow themselves a bit of time and a bit of experience and a bit of a bit of

[00:35:03] leeway, uh, you know i've in my organization I have a lot of consultants and Many of them are highly skilled and many of them have gone through many of the Of the variations of what can happen in payroll and then still and that's the beauty of

[00:35:17] Of why you know, I love my company in the way the way we've been and how we've developed it so far But what I what I see and this is why I know my company's at the right track is

[00:35:27] I see people coming in with a wealth of wealth of experience and yet they get in my organization They get assigned to a to a contract and they get back into The element of getting uncomfortable again and suddenly finding their limits again

[00:35:41] And uh, it could come with tears it could come with all kinds of frustrations And to me that's also is always a signal of hey You're you're at your ceiling again, but it also means you get get you can break through it again

[00:35:53] And which means there's a whole new level behind it Okay, and this could be with a smaller organization could be with a bigger organization. It doesn't really matter It comes when it comes

[00:36:02] Um, and also just to to to to Julie's point is like when we talk about trust and obviously I also eluded in my book about the four c's which is confidence um, um Courage commitment and um and um competence

[00:36:20] You know it all is correlated with trust and empathy, you know If you're working with your stakeholders and you cannot Uh show empathy to them or they're not having any empathy with you and you're not gaining their empathy

[00:36:33] Um and trust therefore then you know all of the ingredients together will not make the right Uh, the the right dinner, you know, so it is always trying to look for How can I you know make little tweaks in how I behave?

[00:36:47] How can I take a little bit more time and show a little bit more patience? Even though i'm on a on a on a on a tight schedule How can I really ensure that everybody's being brought along or and this is the other thing of it or

[00:37:01] When do you really need to say guys? It's enough. It's stop it or no we cannot do this or Listen, i'm not going to do this and in in my career, you know, it also meant, you know When whenever I quit, um, uh in an organization

[00:37:17] It was mostly always because I could not reconcile Anymore with the direction that my leadership was pushing me towards now This is not me advocating everybody to quit their jobs whenever they get a little bit of hardship

[00:37:29] But once you get to it once you get to a point where you realize this is not going to work And i'm going to kill myself trying to achieve this and the the the organization that does not have the

[00:37:40] Appetite for what I know is needed to fix all of this Then you know, it also might be time for you to decide that you may not be being the right in the right location You might not be in the right Organization for you to grow. Yeah agreed

[00:37:53] I've been in that situation as well where you kind of realize like hey I'm kind of the only one here who wants to see this improve

[00:38:00] And and just keeping the lights on is all anyone, you know else wants so, you know completely understand that you need a supportive Look payroll can only be as successful as in my opinion as how well the organization enables them to be

[00:38:13] You know, we talked we joked the other day about kind of the the one-legged race, right? When you you ever did those races Bart where you're kind of like putting one leg in a sack and your your partner and you have To work together

[00:38:23] I feel like that's what payroll is sometimes you you've got them with one leg in a sack and you're asking them to Win a race and it's like well How about if we got our leg out of the sack and got a proper sack, you know or whatever

[00:38:32] I don't know but the point is um, we're we're tying one arm behind their back We're tying one leg behind their back and we're saying perform at the highest level

[00:38:40] That's not going to be possible right and so yeah, I think there's got to be this reconciliation between reality and And what's necessary or what's needed? To make it all come together

[00:38:50] So so one of the other one of the other areas that I really was appreciative of and and we've just talked about Uh my payroll profession confidence index

[00:38:59] Around this is just the partnerships and relationships that payroll builds within the organization and that's where I think the influence comes into play And we've seen just massive differences in how When executive engagement and good good communication is happening between payroll and they're aligned with payroll

[00:39:16] Uh, it's part of the part of the culture part of the part of the priority of the organization We see much much better outcomes But how how do you go about like where do you start?

[00:39:25] I know you I know one of the things I I I really focused in on was In the part that you wrote about partnerships was the painful truth So i'm wondering if we could just start there and you talk about that painful truth and then sort of

[00:39:37] You know, maybe just help us understand, you know how to build these partnerships for uh better outcomes Yeah, so so first of all and and again this is For me, it's a given and i'm sure for you guys does it as well, but at least

[00:39:52] Have regular conversations with your main stakeholders and I think it's clear main stakeholders are finance and hr You know at least have a regular cadence of discussions meetings where you talk about what's really going on Is the bare minimum but then?

[00:40:11] Within those conversations and it all leads up to me in my opinion leads up to Eventually, you need to be in a position where you have joint roadmaps and joint strategies and you have uh, you have agreed joint Priorities, but you know, that's that's the that's the nirvana

[00:40:29] Of it all but First start with having the appropriate conversations And then within the the word appropriate lies the truth and this is what I mean with the brutal truth is if you're not able or if you're not bringing factual discussions to the table then

[00:40:45] Uh, you'll end up and i'm sure everybody recognizes it Also the people that listen to this podcast is you end up in in arguments And if those arguments, you know, it doesn't hurt sometimes to have an argument

[00:40:57] But at least make sure that you have an argument about the same thing and and always Allow yourself with your across with your with your stakeholder to allow yourself also to agree to disagree You know doesn't ask doesn't have to be something you agree upon instantly

[00:41:13] But as long as you can agree to the brutal truth is and the brutal truth in payroll means facts You know what really happened? Where did it happen? Was it a timely issue? Was it an accuracy issue? Was it all of the above?

[00:41:29] Was it with the payroll vendor? Was it with our data set that we sent to the bureau? You need to know the truth In order to speak the truth and it's not about you not speaking the truth being dishonest

[00:41:39] It's more about making sure that when you talk to each other with hr for example about the data being laid Let's let's not let it not be about well, we remember three months ago This one instance because you'll lose the argument before it even started

[00:41:55] And by the way, try to avoid it to be an argument to begin with try to make it something that really is about facts So and instead of throwing at somebody somebody in its face or her face. It's about listen Here's what happened. Here's here's what you know

[00:42:10] What where the proof is or the data that shows it and now can perhaps we can talk about How can we improve this and how can I help you to improve this?

[00:42:19] So that it improves me as well and it improves my life cycle or my process or my team's life cycle as well and I listen i've never come across a stakeholder that is not willing to work with you on that on the flip side

[00:42:33] Let's take that same analogy if if the hr Person you're speaking to or the hr team that you're speaking to acknowledges that that's the case It's also borne upon them then to say well listen we get it. We understand it

[00:42:47] But we either don't know or we don't have the resource or we believe the issue lies even You know further down the road which is with either with hrit or with our data or with our systems You know, yeah the point the point is truth or facts

[00:43:06] You know read the same but truth or facts to me Is the only? real ingredient that helps The discussions to move towards the solution Yeah This is an area where I think payroll practitioners should take heart right because because they're naturally drawn to being

[00:43:27] data driven detailed oriented, you know engaged with data And that's part of what makes them a great fit for payroll in particular And so bringing the receipts is something that is comforting and it's not in every part of an organization where the receipts

[00:43:45] Matter or are even available and in payroll. In fact your your knee deep in data and information and so having that as your as your weapon or your shield, you know should really make the DNA of a payroll person who's into the details and knows the details

[00:44:03] Feel very good about the fact that you have the right you have tools that others don't have in the organization Others are uncomfortable bringing data or gathering data or reading data and and and it's in your dna

[00:44:16] It's part of who you know payroll practitioners are generally. Oh, yeah, they have the skills, right? They have all the soft skills They I really and I think this book is a fantastic blueprint for how to activate those skills and and build the other

[00:44:29] Skills you need to you know around influence and communication and that sort of thing. So Yeah, this is and and guys listen I and I think again as you you come to know me and get to learn to to who I am You know, I like analogies

[00:44:42] But the thing is no argument whether that is at home or at the football pitch with another parent or whatever An argument will never be an argument if one of the parties or at least the parties talk about facts

[00:44:55] And facts are facts, so it's hard to argue about a fact, you know The only thing then you can do next is to to say well listen

[00:45:03] So again in the analogy of of with hr if hr says well listen I get you but I don't think it's my responsibility Okay Let now we can talk about responsibility and then if there's no document that talks about responsibilities

[00:45:16] Then your presumed responsibility for hr is then the weak spot. It's not factual It is an assumption and you assumed wrong or maybe you're right in your assumption But that doesn't mean if the two don't agree to it

[00:45:29] Then at least that's your next layer of what you need to fix and second of all to to julie's point is When you know, you've got facts with you You'll not be nervous about getting across. You won't be you won't hesitate to

[00:45:42] To use it. It will give you the confidence to speak up It also will show your competence because you were able to analyze it You had the courage because it's not about courage anymore because it's hey guys, it's it's it's the truth

[00:45:54] You cannot blame me to bring the truth and therefore and it shows your commitment It shows your commitment to say guys. I know what the problem is. I am here to help

[00:46:05] Yeah agreed agree and you have yeah not you have facts. You have a solution and you have Uh, you have the skill set to come and help I think that's you know, people will want to listen to that more so than just emotion

[00:46:16] Um, you know complaining i'm hearing that old time movie clip in my head strictly the facts ma'am Yeah, what was that uh, we need sound bites on this I know

[00:46:28] We you know, we have that feature here. I just never play with it. We need to figure it out Anyway, yeah So so bart one of the things that I think is going to be really critical skill set or activity and payroll going forward

[00:46:39] Is going to be change management? Um, I think that's going to be key particularly as you start to have ai doing a lot more of the work um

[00:46:46] But so talk about that a little bit in terms of just how you think payroll can can going back to my original point In the beginning lead more uh and kind of get out of their shell of being led

[00:46:56] And begin to to you know, maybe assert themselves in in this um in this sort of spirit Yeah, listen, there's two things you you're saying and you're alluding to here and they're equally and exclusively important, um First of all change management guys

[00:47:14] Any any project that i've done in my career? always Failed if it failed because of poor change management Yeah so Even if the changes you're making makes sense to everybody if you did not make sure that the people that are going through

[00:47:30] The change or the people that are subject to the change Understand why and what happens and how it happened? um, you you lose uh It's impossible. So um you you need to whenever whenever you change your project small or big you need to make sure that um, that

[00:47:51] The change is being communicated at all levels And and being communicated specifically, you know I reckon the the the number one customer of the payroll process is the employee And so, you know, and i've also recently posted about these things, you know

[00:48:06] What what may seem insignificant for us may be extremely significant to to the individual and it could be a matter of 50 bucks And so, you know, i'm sure we all got through projects in where we knew hey We're going to go live with this new software

[00:48:22] And but there's going to be like 50 percent of the people are going to have a deviation in their payroll of like say No more than 50 bucks and we're assuming that's okay Well, you know, maybe maybe not but at least make sure you you communicate this um, or

[00:48:38] Or or you know simple things like, you know It makes sense to create a system in where we can provide digital pay slips or digital digital pay stops Because who doesn't want that? Maybe but you know again

[00:48:52] Even if five or ten percent of the audience is is having issues with it because they don't have a computer Or they don't have a smartphone or they choose one they want to do something different or in certain countries in the world

[00:49:03] It's even not necessarily automatically legal to do that way. Yeah, i'm not saying any names but france is is one of those You know, it's it's it's it's you know, not not Communicating to your audience not having the having had the discussion about

[00:49:19] Whether that change makes sense or not and don't get me wrong It doesn't mean therefore you're not going to move forward with the change

[00:49:26] But again, you need to at least communicate it and you need to know who are these people who are going to push back on it um because again, um, it's it's important and then The second thing is lead more not be led. You know, I think that's that's

[00:49:42] first of all, you know my my my thoughts around these things and Sometimes you also see these things coming over the internet is like yeah people folks are not recognized and they're not rewarded

[00:49:54] And and you know, they're they're being they're a bit of a victim and you know I've never felt it that way, but I do realize that this this may be a bit of the theme that's going on

[00:50:04] In my in my world. It's it's it's about making the choice Of of taking the matter in your own hands and bringing You know delivering delivering the the results and whether that's delivering the facts and then have conversations

[00:50:19] Whether it's just delivering the result and making sure your payroll is done the way it should in the end of the day You you always need to ask yourself am I am I a person that wants to be led or am I am I going to lead?

[00:50:32] my own destiny Um, and and again similar to having influence similar to showing confidence It comes first of all, it comes with experience It comes with drive and commitment and it comes also with character and and and the one thing that I

[00:50:48] I think we didn't even talk about at all But I think is also equally important to to recognize is the cultural differences across the world. Yeah so meaning asking somebody from

[00:51:00] Eastern the east of the middle the east of our of our world is uh, is is a is is completely A different dynamic than asking somebody let's say west of the world and and even within the u.s

[00:51:11] I've learned myself that whether you're working with somebody from the east coast or west coast could completely change the dynamic of the way you You you you have to communicate and and lead Um, so it's it's it's a combination of it all. I think it's it's a skill

[00:51:27] But it's also a matter of one day and and this is you know another analogy So, you know how many people do we know that one day wake up and say

[00:51:36] I'm going to take the lead in my own health. I'm going to take the lead in my own in my own well-being Um, it starts with making the decision and that decision is two seconds away

[00:51:47] And of course, it's not that easily taken but the decision to say i'm going to lead my own destiny I'm going to lead my own payroll process. I'm going to lead my own work Yeah

[00:51:57] Is is already the first step and probably half of the step that you need to take if you're not even considering that you want That then you're going to be led if you ask to have to ask the question to yourself

[00:52:07] Am I leading then most likely you're being led? Yeah, it's a choice Yeah, it seems to me like you know, we're kind of in an instant gratification world, right? So we watch our kids grow up and they want to they want to be basketball

[00:52:20] pros the first time they they try to shoot a hoop right or You know you you have a muscle or an opportunity and you can exercise it once you can exercise it a few times But none of that makes you a trained athlete or you know a star

[00:52:34] And so so taking the reins means take means choosing to take the reins Every day or in every scenario or at least in many scenarios, right? Start with some and build build it like a muscle or like a skill

[00:52:48] Yep, just keep showing up one percent every day. Yeah. Yeah, keep showing up and and also have the The discipline to continue and don't let yourself be be thrown thrown out of the game

[00:53:02] Because somebody disagrees with you or somebody you know, listen if you're leading if you're leading the pack if you're Sticking your head above the the cornfield or if you're suddenly raising your hand and say hey I'm I'm I own this i'm gonna do this, you know instantly

[00:53:18] You're going to be you're going to be looked at then people are going to push and people are going to disagree with you And if you're not if you're not up to the disagreement Or you're not up to to being to be seen

[00:53:29] Then that's the first thing you need to work on. Yeah, you know one of the things that I want to just kind of Tie this back to you or or round this out from I think we should have asked this in the beginning is

[00:53:40] You talk a good bit in the in in the beginning of the book about vision and why it matters And I actually think that's an area that is a big opportunity for payroll

[00:53:48] I've i've not come across a lot of vision in the payroll space and i've worked with companies of every size some Of the biggest companies around the world

[00:53:57] And I think that's an area that payroll really has to and it's not that I think they don't have a vision I think they're afraid to share that vision So I wonder if you could just talk about that too

[00:54:05] Like how important is vision in all this being able to have some sort of Point of view if you will to say this is what I would like to see us become and why

[00:54:14] And then getting getting your executives aligned to that. I mean, how important is all that? Yeah, so first of all pete I I hear what you're saying, although I do think that there's a lot of lacking Lacking vision. I think

[00:54:26] Many people wake up every morning and don't really fully understand or know Why why they're doing what they're doing? Well, I don't also think that it's entirely payroll's fault I mean a lot of times they're sort of handed

[00:54:39] A situation or if you will and say and and it is what it is Right, you know as well as as we do you can't necessarily change payroll very quickly overnight. There's got to be a lot of

[00:54:48] Work to that and so sometimes they're coming into situations where they're simply handcuffed and I think they become afraid To step out of their shell and say we should be doing better We should be doing this and show that vision to begin

[00:54:59] I think I think it's the beginning of the influence right is having the vision Yeah, yeah And and what what is vision, you know And so I look I think I'd like to take this from a personal perspective

[00:55:09] In the sense that if you if you know, let's say you are a payroll analyst for uh, the us and you're you're in a research triangle in rally and you feel like hey, you know, I

[00:55:23] Somebody wakes up one day somebody decides listen, I want to become a international payroll professional And I want to be there in three years Okay Good that that's that that's a that's a great ambition and it's also a great vision and then

[00:55:44] You need to you need to work your way back and say, okay What does that mean for where I am today? What do I need to do next third fourth fifth sixth? How am I going to get there?

[00:55:54] and just the sheer fact that you've put this this this dot in the horizon And you accept that the road to it is not going to be linear. It's going to be ups and downs But you at least focus on that dot in the horizon

[00:56:08] Then suddenly a lot of things that you're currently occupied with or are troubled with or you're it's it's keeping you busy with or You're being concerned or even agitated with Suddenly these things disappear not that they're not there anymore

[00:56:23] But you decide not to be working on that anymore or because you're you're on a mission You want to go somewhere and you don't have time to waste because you've given you three years to get there

[00:56:33] And and that and that's and that might be long that might be short doesn't really matter And I think taking that back into the business is the same thing if you're if you're in or if you step into

[00:56:43] Organization, I think the three of us have gone through this a couple of times that What they've been telling you the situation is completely different from what really is the situation you're coming into

[00:56:53] Or you you come in as a as a new the new senior director of payroll And suddenly you find out you're owning a whole lot of other stuff as well that you didn't even know about

[00:57:03] You know eventually you you just need to then decide either either you're going to accept it or not And the second thing is you need to decide. Okay, if that's where I am today Where do we need to be in a couple years from now?

[00:57:15] And how do I get there and what do I need to get there? um that in itself already opens a lot of Brainpower to decide what are the things i'm going to be Not worried about versus what are the things that i'm going to be worried about listen

[00:57:29] Typical organizations that we join as consultants they have like a washing list of 25 different pages with very small font style of issues on a list You cannot work on all of them together and mostly most of them are probably linked to each other anyhow

[00:57:46] There's dependencies. There's there's sequentialities. There's loads of so Working your way through this list and really being able to articulate What are what are the top two three four five things you're going to things you're going to focus on this quarter? Or this year or this semester?

[00:58:02] Really helps you Focus on the things that matter and then being able to communicate those being able to bring those along towards the The discussions about strategy with the leadership bringing it being able to get the funding and the resource to be able to do that

[00:58:18] Automatically puts you in a position where people start to think hey This guy knows what he's doing Yeah Yeah, you start to show it right you start to prove it. Yeah. Yeah, I love it. I love it

[00:58:29] Look, Bart, this is uh, this has really been fantastic. I could go on for another hour asking you questions What if anything else would you want people to know about the book? Um, or just your work and what you're doing and where we can reach you

[00:58:41] Yeah, so um, you know, of course, you know, you can find me on linkedin second of all You can find my organization. It's called the same as the as the book. It's the payroll minds Or payroll minds is our organization name. We have a website

[00:58:53] I have a personal website where you can also find the book And this is really you know, my my commitment to the to the payroll community is like i'm always willing Uh to to talk to anyone and to to share thoughts and to mentor and coach or

[00:59:07] If you're if you're listening to this you feel like hey Really would love to spend a couple of minutes with uh with him on on this, you know Feel free to reach out and uh, yeah the my organization, you know, we're more and more involved in

[00:59:20] organizations that ask us to help them draw this this vision mission strategy or vision mission vision and then And then strategy and and and and you know, typically then they also ask us to implement and

[00:59:33] You know if you if you look at it from my point of view guys I was a self-employed single contributor and I always would would join an organization and then I would find my team around it

[00:59:43] And then you know, I would be occupied with this with that particular gig for let's say A year two years depending on I I rarely went over two years because you know, there's a I have an expiration date I always call it like that

[00:59:57] And so so but now I am in a position I I can literally say i've created my own my own my own play garden because I now have my fingers in 20 different Uh organizations and 20 different 20 different projects all at the same time

[01:00:12] I sometimes picture myself to be let's say vince and fungole creating his own picture But then having his apprentices around him who are also making they're making their own pictures and I get to see

[01:00:22] Hold on be careful with the hand over there and hold on be careful with the with the sunflower over there You know, I get I get to I get to speak about everything

[01:00:30] I get to have an opinion about everything and and you know being the owner also means they have to listen to me Which is obviously not not very uh, it's not necessarily something that does it that that does it for me as well

[01:00:41] It's not about the listening itself, but being able to help these guys Avoid the issues and being able to help these people to uh to learn from it and uh, it's not about you know One analogy again

[01:00:52] It's not the balance of life is not about having 50% of your work and then 50% of five private life The balance in life is to make sure that you do those things that really add Quality to what you do whether that is five minutes with your kid

[01:01:06] Or whether there's a two minute conversation with your mother or whether it is, you know A whole a whole month in greece which i'm going to do this this summer with your entire family around you You know

[01:01:15] It's it's the balance is not in 50 50 the balance is making sure you you get the best out of everything you do And yeah allowing this for my team and giving them those little tweaks and those little small advices to to really help them

[01:01:31] Find their own way in the in the in the journey Is uh is what really gets me up every morning with a smile on my face I love it. I love it

[01:01:40] You found your calling for sure and congratulations on the book and thank you for what you do for payroll And uh, yeah, keep keep fighting. Thank you Yes, well, we appreciate you. Uh, and look we got to figure out how to collaborate the three of us, right?

[01:01:52] We'll get together at some point and uh brainstorm that we've got to do some work together and put something out I'm sure i'm sure we should so good to have you both and uh, yeah, we'll talk to everyone next time Thank you so much