Every Week Is National Payroll Week with Special Guest Jason Davenport

[00:00:09] Welcome everyone to another episode of HR and Payroll 2.0. I'm Pete Tilliacus and as always, I'm joined by the legendary Julie Fernandez. Welcome Julie.

[00:00:17] Thanks. Thanks so much, Pete. We have a really special, famous, famous, little guest today.

[00:00:24] Yes. Yes. We have a very well-timed, very exceptional guest that I'm so excited about. It's National Payroll Week as most of you know.

[00:00:31] This will come out the Tuesday following that. So I'm really excited to invite Jason Davenport, the CEO at the Chartered Institute of Payroll Professionals, all around Payroll expert and great guy.

[00:00:44] Jason, welcome. So excited to have you. Pete, Julie, it's great to be here. Thanks so much for the invitation. Can't wait to get started.

[00:00:50] Yeah. Yeah. Happy National Payroll Week. It's a good, it's, you know, I think every week should be National Payroll Week.

[00:00:57] But yeah, so how's it been? How's the week been? Has it been busy?

[00:01:01] So absolutely fantastic. You know, we've used hashtags, MPW24. We're driving a hashtag choose payroll because what we really want to do this year is create that brand awareness.

[00:01:13] Make sure people see the opportunities within payroll because I started in payroll many years ago but my career has taken me on so many different directions.

[00:01:22] And the week has just gone fantastically well. I think we're, we're smashing the hashtags off the charts and we're getting so much interaction with webinars.

[00:01:34] We had a whole kickoff event at the Sky Garden in London which is a beautiful location. It sits on the Thames right across from the Garekin and you've got the London Eye.

[00:01:44] So fabulous views all around and we had a 200 VIPs there pick off session and celebrating, celebrating all that payroll delivers to industry.

[00:01:55] Yeah. Congratulations, man. I saw the photos of the event you had posted. You were talking about there. And yeah, you guys, I signed up for the resources, right? The stuff for National Payroll Week.

[00:02:05] You guys put out a great package of resources. I think it was a digital file that we were able to download. And yeah, it was just a packed agenda of events and things to participate in.

[00:02:16] So yeah, awesome. And I love it.

[00:02:17] You know the hashtag you said the other hashtag you mentioned Jason was choose hashtag choose payroll right?

[00:02:33] And the whole idea of this is a cool place to be.

[00:02:36] Absolutely right, Julia. We really want to put payroll on the career map and so many, you know, the school syllabus they talk about accountants.

[00:02:45] They'll take in different directions in terms of software and computing and actually payroll as a career choice gives you so many different options.

[00:02:54] Lots of people not just from an operational perspective and actually delivering payroll either in house or outsourced or as part of an accountants practice.

[00:03:04] But lots of people then move on into different areas within payroll, the likes of software development, the likes of policy review.

[00:03:11] Obviously there's a lot of skills involved in sales and implementation, you know, testing and building software in order to deliver compliance.

[00:03:20] So there's so many different roles and we really want to shout about that so people can understand it and see it as a real potential career choice.

[00:03:29] And not just what we hear too anecdotally is I fell into payroll, you know, that's a great segue.

[00:03:34] We are universally we hear that.

[00:03:37] That's a great segue. Julia, you want to do the honors of that?

[00:03:39] Oh, sure. Sure. Okay. So as you know, Jason, you probably know, we ask all of our guests how the heck you got into payroll or payroll in HR and what is it that makes you stay?

[00:03:49] That's a fantastic question. And you know, I started in construction.

[00:03:53] I was an office junior started out on construction sites, but very much part of that office process within the construction site.

[00:04:00] So I was ordering materials, ordering plants for the construction sites, became involved in first aid and health and safety.

[00:04:09] Those kind of those kind of things are super important out on the construction sites and also estimating for the guys, the jobs that they don't.

[00:04:17] So the bonus they would you with the type of work that they completed.

[00:04:21] And it was it was probably after my second winter in construction and I thought, you know, I really need to get into an office where it's a bit warmer.

[00:04:32] And and the opportunity there was through accounts and the accounts, the accounts team were also looking someone to handle payroll.

[00:04:40] And I've been doing the pre the preparation work for payroll, if you like on the construction site by filling the time sheets, filling all of the different sorts of work patterns that have been completed.

[00:04:51] So I'd sent it off to payroll and getting to do that in the office then having that opportunity really then made me consider payroll as a career choice because I really enjoyed delivering 100% payroll accuracy.

[00:05:06] So taking that from the start, the gross input at that time it was all manually calculated.

[00:05:12] So tax and national insurance using tables to build up the to the net pay and and then delivering cash in packets to the guys because it was still that kind of that kind of approach that yeah.

[00:05:25] So that was my starting base in construction.

[00:05:28] But it was a really, really enjoy payroll.

[00:05:31] I thought this is this is great.

[00:05:32] But as I looked around me, it was engineers and surveyors that got to the top of the tree.

[00:05:37] And I thought, right, I need to I need to consider how I'm going to grow develop my career wanted to go through leadership and I joined an outsourcing business.

[00:05:48] And that the outsources obviously were taking payrolls from those that have been delivered in house.

[00:05:54] Suddenly, I was learning so many different industries, you know, the pharmaceutical industry finance industry oil and gas, because in an outsourcing environment you become responsible for all those industries.

[00:06:07] So there was there was lots of learning which supports one of my mantras which is every day's a school day.

[00:06:13] And it had that just enabled me then to really pursue lots of different avenues within payroll and and I can talk a lot more about that for a very conscious I don't want to take up too much of your time so you can either you can either ask me to continue.

[00:06:29] Our time is yours.

[00:06:31] Yeah, you are the guest of honor Jason.

[00:06:35] No, it's great though Jason I mean, you know, it's interesting how people find their way here and it's fascinating that we find some outstanding talent but like what do we have to do to get people starting out at that payroll being their first choice that that's that's always been this conundrum that I don't know that we have any have made any

[00:06:53] progress on right and I think I desperately want to see that change.

[00:06:56] Yeah, I do two piece I really do. There's a couple of things that starts before that for me which is around financial awareness.

[00:07:04] Yeah.

[00:07:05] So in the UK, the CIPP is part of an initiative driving governments are around lifetime savings and the lifetime savings initiative it was actually the founders there with the pensions management Institute and Schroder's investment bank in the UK.

[00:07:22] Because we look if you look at the working population, and you think of those individuals that are working really hard, but very often an extreme an issue like a car breakdown or you know the washing machine breaks down.

[00:07:36] It sends them into debt because they have no savings.

[00:07:40] And that's because people are living day to day people live in month to month.

[00:07:45] And we think financial awareness would really be supportive to help individuals and equally if the government could do more to support savings.

[00:07:53] There's lots of people have less than a thousand dollars or a thousand pounds in terms of savings on a month to month basis.

[00:07:59] So for me, taking that snapshot of that piece of information.

[00:08:04] What can we do more actually at a school age level and school level so we talk about algebra we talk about other engineering type pieces.

[00:08:13] Do we give individuals do we equip them to come out into the marketplace understanding understanding your pace.

[00:08:19] Yeah, one level you know what is tax and national insurance about social security over in America.

[00:08:24] What are those what are those deductions being made on behalf of how am I contributing to the broader community.

[00:08:31] And many more aspects of financial awareness awareness then around credit how to use credit sensibly.

[00:08:39] What do mortgages mean? How do you know how do you best utilize that and there's elements that I think we can take from all over the world like the 401k approach that you can use your pension towards your mortgage in the UK.

[00:08:52] We're looking for that same kind of appreciation if you like the people are putting into pensions let's recognize that they're taking a step towards savings as part of that.

[00:09:02] Right. I think the financial awareness piece is one big area to tackle and then as part of that seeing payroll as a career choice seeing the opportunities that sit there.

[00:09:15] But for whatever direction you might be interested in in terms of software in terms of legislation in terms of operations in terms of sales.

[00:09:23] There really is a great career path choice on it about it's really about celebrating and expressing that so people can see it as an opportunity.

[00:09:31] Yeah, I agree. Yeah, and there's so many new like look I was having a conversation with a gentleman yesterday, you know on my ride back from the airport.

[00:09:39] And we were talking about AI, you know and I was saying, do you remember when the Internet came around?

[00:09:44] I remember, Julie, you might remember this. I feel like in the news, at least here in the US, we were talking fewer but better jobs.

[00:09:51] Do you remember that kind of around that time? Are you trying to date me Pete?

[00:09:55] No, no, no, I'm just saying like I feel like yeah, no, no, I know, but it is right.

[00:09:59] I feel like that's what we were talking about and I don't see that AI, I mean listen it's incredibly impactful.

[00:10:06] It could be very, very disruptive to the workforce and it will be.

[00:10:09] But I also think that there's going to be that same maybe different jobs right?

[00:10:13] I don't know if fewer is right thing.

[00:10:15] Every technology and every innovation that comes along creates a different path of work.

[00:10:20] And I think that that's what's going to happen here right?

[00:10:22] We're going to see different types of jobs and I'm starting to see you know payroll having opportunities in areas that maybe weren't.

[00:10:29] That are a little bit more adjacent technology wise or other places where they're making, you know, they're finding a path from those skills that were born out of payroll.

[00:10:37] Right? So yeah, I'm optimistic.

[00:10:39] I mean, I think that we need payroll is starving for innovation. It has been for so long and it's so great to see it here.

[00:10:46] But we've got to protect this industry because we're not, I mean like everyone, we're losing talent.

[00:10:52] We're losing skill.

[00:10:53] We're not we're not bringing them in as fast as we're losing them and we're not.

[00:10:57] We haven't historically been the first stop of those folks anyway.

[00:10:59] They're just kind of ending up here, which is yeah, just not, you know, not ideal.

[00:11:04] Let's build on the story Pete.

[00:11:05] So Pete, Julie, I come from steam.

[00:11:07] Yeah, I come from the steam age.

[00:11:08] Yeah.

[00:11:09] You know, I started out it with pre computerization and so when the computers came along, hey, there was there was the fear but there was the embrace.

[00:11:18] It was fantastic to see what they could do actually getting all of the calculations that tax the National Insurance getting all of that detailed in meant that while we could do so much more, we could handle so much more.

[00:11:31] So while the aspiration was to create some free time, it also meant that the efficiency levels grew and you could you could you could maximize so much more work with the computers support.

[00:11:44] And I think you'd need to look at it in that way.

[00:11:46] It's the computer support.

[00:11:47] We're still in charge of that just as we are in terms of, you know, the other technologies that have taken us forward.

[00:11:56] So I think AI is a great enabler.

[00:11:59] If I relate it back to earlier parts of payroll, payroll technology moving forward, it's like automation.

[00:12:06] You know, for a long time we talked about why are people sitting there keying in the same data?

[00:12:11] Why not automate that data?

[00:12:13] Why not improve that process and take away that manual repetitive work?

[00:12:18] So AI I'm looking at in a similar way.

[00:12:20] What can it do that's helpful and supportive that answers questions easily?

[00:12:25] But actually, let's not be fearful for the fact that the real nitty gritty of payroll, the legislation that they understand in how those calculations work, etc.

[00:12:35] That's still down to a huge amount of human interpretation, human understanding where it would be.

[00:12:41] And free up and where I hope it frees up is, you know, I now consider myself a technology worker.

[00:12:46] Everything I do interacts on technology everything, everything, you know, go to go to meetings and there's presentations behind me or come on to things like this.

[00:12:55] And we're using through the podcast, we're using technology to enable this to happen.

[00:12:58] Technology there isn't an abler, which is a fantastic support to everyone, but it's individuals that are going to put the strategy behind it.

[00:13:06] Individuals within a payroll capacity. We've talked for a long time about wanting to enable them to be better, to be more strategic, to be seen at the board table.

[00:13:14] Well, does this freeing up of time allow them to do that? Does it allow them to consider what data have I got on my fingertips that's going to be useful to business?

[00:13:23] So I say let's not be fearful. Let's look at embracing but doing it with sensitivity and doing it with a level of intelligence that's where the human interaction that makes it really work.

[00:13:35] Jason, you started out with you're from the steam area and I'm thinking we're going from steam to stem.

[00:13:42] I love it, Julie.

[00:13:44] And you know what? The only thing I don't know why there's been such a noise around stem and the importance of those types of skills and payroll fits perfectly in that category.

[00:13:55] It's everything but the engineering bit, right? So maybe we need to kind of make some noise around the fact that payroll is right there.

[00:14:05] It's in the stem fields.

[00:14:06] Yeah, yeah.

[00:14:07] That's a great point.

[00:14:08] So Jason, talk to me a little bit about the CIPP for the folks that aren't familiar. Tell us a little bit about CIPP, what your mission is, what you guys are doing.

[00:14:16] Yeah.

[00:14:17] And yeah, how they can get engaged with that.

[00:14:18] Oh, great. Thank you. So the Chartered Institutes as it exists today is 40 years young and it came from an organization called APSER and then BPMA, the British Payroll Managers Association.

[00:14:32] So it's gone through its degrees of evolution. I actually joined when I was working in construction, the BPMA, as a member to find somewhere that was there for me.

[00:14:43] And then that again is something that's really important to make sure that we get our membership aware of what's available to them.

[00:14:51] And to those that work in payroll but don't know about the membership bodies that are there to support them.

[00:14:58] So our mission is about leading the payroll and pensions professions. It's about supporting them in terms of qualifications and training.

[00:15:06] So whilst membership is very important was that a counter about 16% of our revenue.

[00:15:12] We're not for profit organization with the Royal Charter, dain by as it was at the time, Her Majesty's government now his Majesty.

[00:15:21] And there's only there's less than 1000 businesses with the Royal Charter in the UK.

[00:15:25] So we're very, we're very proud of that having the Royal Charter there.

[00:15:30] You should be.

[00:15:30] It was a super important step for us so that what we could actually do is offer to our individual members then we got Royal Charter status in 2011.

[00:15:40] And in 2017, we've been able since 2017, we've been able to offer Charter status individual Charter status and within the UK that that puts them on a peer to peer relationship with Charter Accountants, Charter Engineers.

[00:15:55] So really to demonstrate the depth of experience and qualifications that these individuals have and we're super to see that body of people growing year on year.

[00:16:04] Yeah, that's outstanding. Now I've heard that the UK has some is it degree programs or education in universities for the payroll leader or payroll practitioner?

[00:16:13] Yeah, yeah, that's correct.

[00:16:14] That's huge. That's huge.

[00:16:16] When you leave school education at 18, you have a levels which is considered level three.

[00:16:21] Right.

[00:16:21] That's the equivalent university level.

[00:16:24] And then level five is degree level and six and seven, those levels are at masters.

[00:16:30] And within payroll and pensions we offer qualifications to take you through the up to up to level three.

[00:16:35] And you can do apprenticeships up to level three, up to level five as well.

[00:16:39] And again, you can either go through a degree approach to get to that stage or you could do an apprenticeship now which is being recognized at that level.

[00:16:46] And then we also have levels six and seven from masters and BA, which is again university accredited but all developed and delivered supported by ourselves.

[00:16:57] We have a trading subsidiary of CIPP, the IPP Education Limited, and they do all of that delivery and development work.

[00:17:06] And over here in the UK we have off-qual, which is the government assessment body.

[00:17:13] And our qualifications and our apprenticeship assessments is all off-qual accredited.

[00:17:19] Yeah, that's outstanding.

[00:17:21] Since we're in acronym world here I'd love to bounce a couple off of you that are familiar.

[00:17:26] I see them often in folks that I seem to be very qualified and having been around the block but I wonder how they fit or if they do fit at all.

[00:17:36] With your organization, I often see folks that will say they have Prince II different levels of certification or some sort of credentials.

[00:17:46] What do I make of that?

[00:17:48] So Prince II is project management and it's ensuring that an individual has gone through a level of qualification and experience in that project management stream of work.

[00:17:59] So somebody that's got Prince II accreditation would be great to have within a team when you're looking at new projects coming on board and being able to plan those out and then actually execute them through to delivery.

[00:18:12] And another one I see quite frequently that many of payroll folks that have been around the block for a long time have is APMG internationally.

[00:18:21] APMG, that's right.

[00:18:22] Yeah, I haven't heard of that one.

[00:18:24] I've heard of the Prince one before.

[00:18:25] I've worked with folks with that.

[00:18:27] Interesting.

[00:18:28] So Jason, what are what designations do you guys issue for your organization?

[00:18:33] So we start affiliate membership and then through experience or through qualification you can go through associate to full member.

[00:18:40] I'm a full member at the moment but I'm actually completing my application to become a fellow.

[00:18:45] So you can become a fellow of the Institute and then as I say through further qualification you could end up becoming chartered.

[00:18:52] And again, we started with the route that was purely about qualification but now those routes have opened up to look at levels of experience as well.

[00:19:00] And we're really encouraging individuals because being able to use the designations is really important within industry.

[00:19:08] I would say hand on heart 90% of employers that go out looking for somebody to work in payroll ask for CIPP approved qualifications.

[00:19:18] Yeah, no absolutely as they should right?

[00:19:20] I mean it's certainly, I mean it's always been that way here in the US right with our CPPs and that sort of thing.

[00:19:24] Yeah, I feel like there's almost not enough education.

[00:19:29] You know, I commonly see folks are really looking for more and I find it's slanting into the leadership realm and it's also slanting into the global realm.

[00:19:38] Right? They need a lot of help with multi-country.

[00:19:40] So are you seeing those same sort of trends as well?

[00:19:42] I really am and you know what? That's a great link back to the earlier conversation about AI because lifelong learning for everybody that wants to keep ahead,

[00:19:51] for everybody that wants to keep abreast of current topics, changes, then demonstrating that lifelong learning and continuing to keep yourself updated is so important.

[00:20:01] The Stone Age man that stayed in the cave is the one that died out, the one that went out and explored is the one that grew and flourished.

[00:20:08] There can be reasons behind that and sometimes it's just about being adventurous and wanting to learn, but that's so important.

[00:20:17] And I agree with you at the point that you just made there Peter, around global payroll.

[00:20:21] If I go back to an earlier part of my career after joining outsourcing, I had the opportunity to work on an international deal.

[00:20:29] And it was those chances where lots of people step back, but I stepped forward.

[00:20:34] And the director at the time said that we've got to put a deal together across UK, France, Belgium, Netherlands.

[00:20:40] Who knows anything about French payroll?

[00:20:42] Right.

[00:20:43] I didn't know anything about French payroll, but I put my hand up and next week I was in Paris and I was late.

[00:20:49] I was meeting the French teams and we were having great lunches by the way, they love a lunch.

[00:20:55] Yeah.

[00:20:56] But that really gave me the appetite for international payroll.

[00:21:01] And from that small beginning, if you like, and then winning the deal, delivering the services across those countries,

[00:21:08] actually subcontracting in Belgium with a little known provider that only delivered in Belgium at the time.

[00:21:14] And they were called SD Works, obviously a global provider today.

[00:21:18] And from that piece of working with them, working across those countries, that really gave me an appetite.

[00:21:25] And that's when I joined Northgate-Sarinzo and Pete, that's when you and I came across each other.

[00:21:30] Yes, yes.

[00:21:31] Yeah.

[00:21:32] Because I was part of global teams then setting up operations out in, in during the Philippines and getting to visit America frequently, etc.

[00:21:40] So that was such a, such a great journey as we knitted those different businesses together to create a global offering.

[00:21:48] And I think that, you know, that's still evolving.

[00:21:51] It's still evolving how that delivered the different approaches that are being taken and everyone's still learning the skills around that.

[00:21:58] So there's still so much to do.

[00:22:00] Yeah.

[00:22:00] And it's fascinating how the, I mean, we obviously understand the employment element of it, but it's fascinating how, you know, back 10 years ago,

[00:22:10] only the biggest companies were multinational, only the biggest companies had global needs.

[00:22:14] Now it's like everybody has a goal.

[00:22:15] I mean, you almost want to say you should if you're recruiting the right way, you know, unless you have to recruit and have people on site,

[00:22:22] you know, you're able to get the skills you need anywhere now.

[00:22:26] And so I think you're seeing companies are being pulled into places that they never expected to be.

[00:22:31] Yeah.

[00:22:31] Paral leaders are becoming multi-country at a faster rate at an unexpected sort of path.

[00:22:37] And it's interesting because you're right, it's created all this opportunity, but also all this gaps in knowledge and gaps in learning

[00:22:44] and folks that are in some ways learning as they go.

[00:22:48] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:22:50] I don't know that there can be enough, you know.

[00:22:52] I would totally challenge, you know, any of our listeners, the more we talk with guests about how they got in and, you know,

[00:22:58] how they navigated a career in and around payroll, the more I just,

[00:23:03] I think I would challenge any other career option out there to have so many different paths and so many different ways

[00:23:12] and to actually find that most folks that have found their way into this space love it because they've changed themselves.

[00:23:22] They've reinvented themselves over and over in different aspects or different facets for different periods of their life around this.

[00:23:29] And that's what we hear the, you know, the Gen Zs are looking for.

[00:23:32] It's what we hear, you know, is part of really valuing and enjoying a job and learning and accumulating skills.

[00:23:38] So, you know, like how could this not be the coolest thing since sliced bread?

[00:23:42] Right.

[00:23:43] Do you know what, Julie?

[00:23:44] That's a fantastic point as well because Gen Z, what we hear with new millennials, etc., you know,

[00:23:49] new generations joining the workforce is the only one to be part of the workforce for a couple of years to take experience,

[00:23:55] to then move on to the next role.

[00:23:57] If I think about my own career, my own career was never I'm going to sit in this one place forever.

[00:24:01] My own career was about I want to go and gain experience.

[00:24:04] So in the very same way, I tended to use five years as a kind of a block because and also it's very important to be family as well.

[00:24:12] So, you know, Louis and I have been together 34 years.

[00:24:15] We've got the three children who are now grown up, but we made decisions that were both career supporting and family supporting at each direction.

[00:24:26] So I had a global work for about six years, but then it was the right decision was to come away from that and to come back into the UK.

[00:24:33] And I took a UK post that is still provided for us as a family that still gave me lots of opportunities to develop,

[00:24:39] but it allowed me to be back home more often.

[00:24:42] And that was fine then because it was the right choice for the family and for me.

[00:24:46] And again, just to your point that you're making it, I think you can find that within payroll right across the globe.

[00:24:53] You can find the areas that suit your best.

[00:24:56] You can then go and explore that.

[00:24:58] And actually, you know, during my time within global payroll, I read the product development team.

[00:25:03] And I got that was learning a whole new language, the whole technical language of product development and appreciating.

[00:25:08] I was brought in from an operation side looking at the user experience, but learning how those guys were going through, you know, fast development phases, etc.

[00:25:17] Gave me a lot more strings to my own bow and a lot more ability to go and discuss that and challenge that in other areas.

[00:25:25] So yeah, taking life long learning and different experiences.

[00:25:29] Wow, this is a super rich industry to provide that.

[00:25:32] It is it is man. And payroll, I mean, payroll specifically can take you places and I mean, I've given a speech on this but I tried to run from payroll for the longest time.

[00:25:41] I thought it was going to hold back my career.

[00:25:43] I thought no one would take me serious as an HR leader if all I did was payroll, you know, and what I found was that the opportunity was always in payroll.

[00:25:52] I was always challenged more by payroll.

[00:25:54] I was being career path and I didn't even know it.

[00:25:57] You know what I mean?

[00:25:57] It was just when you wake up one day and it's like, hey, I've been doing this for this long.

[00:26:01] I was fortunate to get around a lot more elements of HR and transformation.

[00:26:05] But largely, you know, one of the things I think is cool is I've seen and I have some direct reports that I've had in the past that I hired or worked with young in their careers that are now in adjacent areas like product development and consulting and things where they're not practitioners any longer but they're still sharing that knowledge and using it in a lengthy career.

[00:26:25] It's really, really awesome.

[00:26:25] There's not too many things that get good as you get older, especially the aches and pains.

[00:26:29] But one of the really great things is seeing those that you've mentored and then come on and then become directors of industry and move into different countries may take up different positions there and really, really established careers.

[00:26:43] That's fantastic to see.

[00:26:45] Yeah, likewise.

[00:26:46] Likewise.

[00:26:46] I've also worked with, now these were in mega organizations that I was either consulting or working with, but I've seen some really brilliant leaders come from other parts of the company, come into a global payroll or a major shared services sort of environment and absolutely excel and they had no background.

[00:27:04] They were, you know, something else and this was the way for them to get to the next level.

[00:27:09] And it's, you know, and we get some tremendous folks that way, but it's like what if they would have started here?

[00:27:13] You know, it's, it would have been amazing.

[00:27:15] You know, so yeah, we got to figure that out and get more people here.

[00:27:18] And I'm hoping that now that the role, and that's what I want to talk to you about too is, you know, what are your thoughts on how the role is changing?

[00:27:25] I mean, I think that the payroll leaders are really going to have to become almost big four consultants.

[00:27:31] They're going to have to become business advisors in a large way, right?

[00:27:34] I mean, certainly they'll still have to be managing their process and their risk management if you will.

[00:27:40] But at the core, I think they're going to also need to be that advisor.

[00:27:45] What are your thoughts on what you feel like the role is going to become?

[00:27:48] I agree and I agree that, you know, every individual is going to have a different ask and request of them.

[00:27:53] But the more rounded those leaders can be than the more influential they are within the business.

[00:28:00] Also, the more credible they're seen if they come from not just one position.

[00:28:06] So being able to talk about data, being able to talk about people, being able to talk about projects that are unfolding,

[00:28:13] being able to talk about the customer experience as part of that,

[00:28:16] being able to talk about a business and where its sales might be leading because you see the data around those different areas of the business.

[00:28:25] There is such an opportunity for those leaders to be super influential to use that data and really with credibility build it out.

[00:28:37] I think, you know, the time is great. It's about finding feet though and it's about making sure that stakeholders are aware of that credibility.

[00:28:46] So, you know, finding a voice using the voice and being recognized as somebody that's of value and therefore should be listened to.

[00:28:55] Yeah, yeah, and I want to see too. I think we've got to work on, I mean, my report that we put out,

[00:29:00] I think it the payroll professional confidence index and thank you so much for your help in getting that.

[00:29:06] Yeah, I want to double that next year.

[00:29:08] But I think what we what I saw in there is that we've got to make payroll a cultural priority within the within the organization and that's lacking in, you know, 90 plus percent I'd say, I don't know, many organizations most are not looking at payroll as a priority

[00:29:23] they're kind of looking at it as this reactive thing they have to do.

[00:29:27] Unnecessary evil and I think that that's that attitude is what I think is a big part of what will help payroll become that advisor and be seen and certainly they got to walk though, they got to walk the talk.

[00:29:38] They've got to lean into the tech and use that.

[00:29:41] But I but I think there's got to be this cultural shift towards payroll being a priority.

[00:29:45] And I don't know that that's happening fast enough and I think it's happening to organizations in a reactive way like oh this thing has happened or that thing has happened.

[00:29:53] Oh, let's make let's make this important.

[00:29:54] Well it's too late at that point right and you're and you're mopping up sometimes.

[00:29:59] Yeah, I think again that's that's the ask of that is that each of individuals that gets to lead a payroll area also gets to create their own identification because all too often it can be seen as payroll reports into HR or payroll reports into finance.

[00:30:15] And because of that umbrella if you like then finance will be looking at okay what do we need to do about national minimum wage or what do we need to be doing about gender.

[00:30:25] And those kind of things and payroll provides all the feed to that provides all the information to that that allows HR to then go make those decisions well why not just lead that yourselves and finance as for right we need all the data on the labor costs and then the costs of absence and again,

[00:30:41] well actually we can provide we can provide a whole suite of information that does you know all of those things so it's.

[00:30:47] I think you're right you know Pete was talking about kind of at the C suites and you've got the HRD or you've got the CFO, payroll director needs to.

[00:30:56] You need to ensure that their voices head and that the information that they're providing is seen as so credible because it covers such a broad span of the operation.

[00:31:04] Yeah, yeah, yeah so impactful to.

[00:31:06] Did you say that your organization addresses the needs both for payroll and pension.

[00:31:12] Did I hear that right when you said that beginning. Yeah, you did yet.

[00:31:16] That's amazing because they're usually in two different parts of the organization in the US very different.

[00:31:21] And yet if you think about it from the weightiness of the volume of dollars that you know are at stake in either one of those things and and somehow I personally feel like you know the the pension the folks that touch pension have a more naturally

[00:31:36] elevated you know people think of them as higher knowledge workers than payroll workers and yeah so I'm just curious if putting those two things together is helping drive that in any way or what do you mean like what's going on with that.

[00:31:49] So what we see here in the UK is very much a payroll and pensions teams tend to work very closely together and in fact can be the same team just with you know different groupings.

[00:31:59] So we do see it as a closely located skill set already in the UK.

[00:32:05] We support understanding the calculations understanding the background and the history to that so part of we provide degree programs in that as well.

[00:32:16] So qualifications that you can take, you know to support your pensions administration journey through to through to manager etc.

[00:32:23] And what's really important is recognizing all the differences that exist.

[00:32:28] So there are you know there's public sector pensions there's private pensions.

[00:32:33] We we introduced some years ago within the UK auto enrollment which was an automatic entitlement to a pension and that actually drove 11 million more contributors to pension schemes, which was a in it in that driving so much more

[00:32:52] individuals to a pension scheme was a fantastic success.

[00:32:56] The still challenging terms of are we saving enough for our you know for retirement and that that's a broader discussion.

[00:33:04] But actually driving that auto enrollment approach which meant that people had to opt out rather than opt in.

[00:33:10] I think you see you see a high 50% plus take up rates, then if you offer something that's an opt in, then it tends to be a very low take up rate you know it's an issue that drives that actually people go

[00:33:21] I won't get to opt out I'll just stay in there and that's been a fantastically successful initiative across the UK.

[00:33:29] Yeah, at that point in time I think when that happened there was quite a bit of a talent gap right and and so looking to the US where we had for one case and other vehicles that functioned a lot like that was we had a little talent outflow right over to the

[00:33:47] Because you guys were driving some pretty big changes over there.

[00:33:50] Yeah, yeah absolutely and you know when I think that's where the globe can you know all the different countries I'm out to South Africa on Sunday to attend their conference and South Africa they've been reviewing and bringing together the two pots in terms of

[00:34:17] Which would you know take away the benefit from when they reach old age.

[00:34:22] So they've been looking at their own legislation around that and how they improve that Australia doing the same because all of us have got a multi generational society where we're seeing so many people live longer which is fantastic but we need to be supported in that retirement stage as well you know.

[00:34:38] It's cool to see that pairing right because if you think about it as a continuum of your own personal pay.

[00:34:44] You have your pay while you're at work and then you have what your sex stock stocking away.

[00:34:49] And hoping will be your income revenue stream when you stop working and so it just seems so much more logical and those things are rarely in the same sentence here.

[00:34:59] On this side of the pond.

[00:35:01] You know what's interesting as you were asking that Julie I was thinking you know I've always thought of pensions and payroll kind of being part and parcel in the UK just from my experience but also I've worked with a few folks that entered the HR payroll space by way of the pension world.

[00:35:17] Okay.

[00:35:17] And I always found them to be like like brutally prepared because they've gone through the complexities of the pension program and then they're like payroll.

[00:35:26] Oh that's not you know we've already kind of gone through the calculus of this so yes I'm outstanding but again these are the compliance based processes that make this job so and that's one country right one thing we're not even you know 190 more or 180 some more.

[00:35:45] You know to go but Jason I want to ask you this question right look we've had we've had a couple of guests on you know we've talked about what we have the ABCC we had the.

[00:35:55] Where we were talking about the Australian workforce Council what they're trying to do similar to some of the things that have already happened in the UK with degrees and and look they've got this big initiative where they really want to see payroll in the C suite.

[00:36:07] And I have mixed opinions about that I you know I want payroll to aim high right aimed at I always believe dream big right if you're going to dream big and I do believe that payroll needs a very I do believe they deserve an executive level.

[00:36:21] You know channel and a direct and a and an engagement right do they belong necessarily in C suite I'm not sure right I mean no more so than any other thing.

[00:36:31] And however you know when you sit and you talk about this idea of well does it report to HR does it report the finance I don't think there's a right answer I think that's very cultural to the organization and kind of what they're doing sometimes the sector even right if they're very finance

[00:36:45] led yes that makes sense but but I also think that there is a place for payroll to have some sort of presence whether it be on their own maybe in a matrix way or reporting directly into the C suite where there is that visibility

[00:37:01] which you think about the P&L hit of payroll to most companies it's massive and if I'm the CFO I need to know that that's that that's working I spread I would want to know if I'm the CEO but like what is your thoughts on that whole HR payroll C suite like what do you think

[00:37:16] you payroll really belongs and what do you think is the future that

[00:37:19] I'm really pleased that you brought that up because actually any CFOs that sat there listening and giving consideration that the bit that you touch on there around compliance about are we paying people correctly are we meeting the legislative requirements in whichever country that we

[00:37:37] exist in are we delivering that right without risk that all blows down in a lot of ways to do our people understand what to do and are they qualified to do what they do are the educated to do what they do

[00:37:49] and that's where the Institute and other associations come into support that because compliance is such a huge huge issue actually there's many industries out there and many businesses that sleepwalk through some of the legislation changes and don't realize

[00:38:06] all we need to enact this we don't need to enact that because they're not focusing on it so I think just in that just in that regard I'm going to come back to your key question around the C3 but just in that regard you know there are hundreds of thousands of people involved in payroll

[00:38:20] and not everybody wants to be a leader not everybody I tell you what some boardrooms you don't want to go in it's not right it's not as fun as it might sound it's not just all fruit bowls and cheese and crackers it's there's a lot of tough stuff goes in there

[00:38:36] but so you know we want to represent everybody and those 80% that big part of it if I'm picturing a triangle here you know with an awful lot of bread and butter at the bottom of a lot of people at work there

[00:38:48] we want to make sure that everybody's represented everybody's recognized for the value that they bring because actually you know within the UK we've just celebrated that the payroll professionals in the UK have delivered 413 billion pounds in the last fiscal year to the government for

[00:39:05] central spending you know that collection that value of money is incredible for a you know an organization UK PLC if we think of it as that to then determine what the central spending initiatives are going to be so at that real macro level it's massive and obviously it's super important at a micro level that every individual that works for a business every working employee if they're paid correctly the impact that has on health and well being the financial just

[00:39:35] assurance that another pays correct it's coming in we can make the family bills we can pay the household bills that happen and we can make plans make plans for holidays and new cars and things like that so yeah there's a much bigger piece in terms of the industry that I don't want us to lose sight on at all

[00:39:55] but in terms of that sitting at the suites C-suite or in terms of that influencing at the C-suite it is typically a massive chunk of business costs is the labor force yeah so to not have an eye to it to not have an awareness of it well I challenge any CEO CFO that didn't you know

[00:40:18] yeah well hey and what other HR process do you know of that's going to get the CFO or the CEO hauled out in handcuffs yes not another one if somebody screws up a you know whatever onboarding or

[00:40:32] learning yeah performance plan like what I mean maybe you could get sued and that's very detrimental but but are but literally like their their their folks can be hauled out in handcuffs and and it's not a game and I think that this idea that payroll is entry level

[00:40:46] and that payroll is just this thing down in the basement and they're just printing checks is about as ignorant as you can possibly do and what's worse is that we have we now have the data from the PPCI report that shows that when executives lean into payroll the outcome the ROI and the value return is 3x than those that don't right

[00:41:05] and and just the way that they're treating them and there's a lot of things that lead to that but but I think the point here is is that you know and I try to tell folks this is you're at a competitive disadvantage whether you realize it or not if your payroll is limping along and you've got these other great

[00:41:19] you know core HR and you've got all this stuff you're you're you're putting yourself at a huge risk and you're not creating a resiliency and an agility and a stability to be able to handle the next thing

[00:41:31] and I don't think people see that until they see that and that's what I mean Julie we've talked about the fact that payroll gets bought at in catalyst moments right no one's out there like oh let's get a new payroll right like you know it's like oh shit we've had you know we've had a breakdown or we've got a we've lost people or we bought something sold something whatever it's hardly ever this proactive

[00:41:53] get in front of the ball kind of thing and so I really hope that more organizations do make it a cultural priority do start to look at their payroll for payroll folks as as essential to not just their the employee experience but also the the

[00:42:11] strategic direction of the business and I think that it's just a huge miss when that's not happening for them so yeah well look Jason just to kind of round this out I know we're kind of coming to time I could I could keep peppering you the questions

[00:42:24] I could keep going all day I know man I know you know what we're gonna have to do a follow up we're gonna have to do a follow up but yeah I'm gonna ask you this man what gets you excited about payroll right now and what what are you most worried about and how do we help with with those things

[00:42:37] so I think if I take that a macro level as I've just mentioned it's about it's about the C-suite understanding the needs of the payroll teams and making sure that they're supported in terms of qualifications in terms of legislation updates in terms of

[00:42:53] making sure that that team is trained and well developed to be able to deliver all of the complicated legislation and changes that are happening all the time so support of the team payroll team is a super request from this call and anyone listening you know

[00:43:11] recognizing the respect how much they do for you more than that more than that I think is just the awareness that it makes such a contribution to overall society and for me payroll is a definite career choice with so many different strands to it so I want to get to the syllabus with schools so that they can they can realize that see it as a potential

[00:43:36] see it as an opportunity to move people into you know people who enjoy maths people who enjoy computers and the science behind that but others that go into sales and business developments and I'm far more your client facing pieces there's opportunities for everybody in those roles as well

[00:43:54] and you know to have in a generation people going I'm leaving school and I want to be a payroll profession professional that'll be a that'll be a great yeah yeah how do we do that right that's the that's the million dollar question I'd love to see

[00:44:10] I'm trying to do what I can bring I do a lot of counseling with veterans coming into the workforce I've been really trying to encourage I get a lot of the HR a lot of project management yeah and I'm really trying to encourage some connection there to try and pipeline some tremendous skills

[00:44:24] yeah you know into the space but I also think we've got to you know the media is really throwing a wet blanket on on what was already a hurdle that we had right telling everyone oh I don't need you anymore

[00:44:36] which is insane just insanity when you think about payroll or even HR I mean there's I mean yeah okay data whatever you can you can manage data maybe with AI but imagine imagine try to manage a merger and acquisition or a major organizational change or something something very disruptive and big to the business

[00:44:54] that's going to touch people which is everything you know what how do you do that without people and that's just you know that's where I think the emotional intelligence and the adaptability and skill sets the soft skills of the payroll practitioners they're really poised for the future

[00:45:09] they just have to lean in and know it and understand you know and believe it and then you know demonstrate these skills that we're talking about right the the consult a take consultative engagement and championing change and using data to tell stories I think all those things are going to be really really big for the

[00:45:25] for the practitioner of the future so yeah um yeah well look how do we what's next for you what's next for the CIPP how do we connect let us know what can we do yeah definitely yes I I'd love to continue within this storytelling and join you again

[00:45:41] um the aspiration for me is that the all of the different international associations work better together and I think we work well together today because we're well connected but there's much more we can do to improve upon that I'm sure that's just part of evolution

[00:45:57] um and collectively you know supporting the industry raising the awareness of the industry um and just how much it contributes both a macro level to the whole country economy and then a micro level to the individual working households

[00:46:15] you know that a lot of respect and kudos um should go there hence national payroll week 2024

[00:46:23] hashtag choose payroll yeah steam to stem I got a few of them coming out of this we got to figure that out yeah we got to do something with that but but you know Jason I think we've also got to instill a belief in this in this community that they that they are executive leaders

[00:46:38] that can have conversations with executives to make positive change for their businesses to you know for positive outcomes and so I think part of that is payroll understanding that they do have the skills and you do have the capability what you need is is is the outlet to be able to channel to be able to communicate

[00:46:56] that and that's where I'm hoping you know my call to action this year I don't know if you guys saw my post about you know I'm asking executives take 20 minutes and just have a conversation with your payroll team and see what happens right just just take 20 minutes give them 20 minutes of your time understand them listen to them you know share share what you're looking to accomplish and vice versa and see what comes of it maybe have another meeting and maybe have another

[00:47:18] meeting and I think there's some tremendous outcomes that we can see so I'm excited I'm excited for it well look this is great Jason where can we connect with you at and the CIPP and I'll make sure all the all these links are in there as well and you guys got a big conference coming up

[00:47:31] yeah that's right yeah we have annual conference next exhibition which we yeah acronyms ace in October in the Celtic manner I know it clashes with getting you across peak as I was hoping for that but we were there against competition in Vegas and so they win

[00:47:48] yeah I've already booked I'm already booked

[00:47:52] there you go Julie

[00:47:53] yeah we we just were talking about that recently and yeah no I'd love to come I will try to make it the next one I little short notice I couldn't get to this one but I desperately want to come and yeah I'll share the links to that as well

[00:48:06] brilliant thank you very much

[00:48:07] and we'll keep we'll put your LinkedIn in there as well and Jason look we you know we have our help anything we can do I want to lean in and try to do more with you guys as much as I can

[00:48:17] and yeah we're here to help you we're here to help the industry and so anytime you want to come back here you're welcome we love to hear about what you guys are doing and share your knowledge so thank you so much

[00:48:28] that's great thank you thank you thank you that's really been great thank you

[00:48:32] yeah so Julie where where you headed what's up what you got going on my so this is coming out right in conference season and so as you know well actually tomorrow I think I'll be back already from a from a trip over to do some

[00:48:48] speaking in Hawaii that the first for me

[00:48:51] I'm gonna get tan over there I don't know I usually I only see the insides of buildings it's so it's so you know not exciting right

[00:48:59] as Jason was saying at the beginning of our episode we think they sound like shrimp and you know ice

[00:49:04] and then the SSOW so the shared services now sourcing week in Houston is the following week and then of course I'll be with you at HR Tech yeah yeah exactly right I'm headed out there to HR Tech but making a stop next week in

[00:49:21] at the California payroll conference out in Sacramento I think this is my second or third one I've done of theirs I'm excited for that a lot of great folks will be at that and yeah I'll be presenting on AI and automation

[00:49:32] on leadership and payroll for the future and yeah all that good stuff great way to celebrate I know right I know one week after yeah but and look we also need to I think we've missed telling our audience about our

[00:49:45] news right we moved over to the work defined network we put that out on social media but yeah we're super excited you know really it's time right it's time for us to grow it's still going to be the same content still a sales free environment

[00:49:58] we're gonna bring that over to the work defined network it's already live and check out the other shows there man they are you're gonna hear some promos on our show for those shows we're gonna promote the other shows

[00:50:07] they're gonna promote us and really the goal here is just to get to a wider audience and share our insights and yeah big thanks to Ryan Leary and William Tank up for inviting us man it's really great

[00:50:17] yeah and if it's if it's not obvious by the name right of that sub stack we defined all of the podcasts that they're assembling under that sub stack are about work so yeah the payroll and HR could be you know

[00:50:31] temporary leadership all kind of ship recruiting like everything that has to do with you know your work and your work life is is kind of being pulled together under a yeah I think their goal is like 100 shows and we're really proud to just be one of the first few and so excited for it so check them out over

[00:50:48] it's W.R.K. D.E.F.I.N.E.D.com you can check all the all the shows you're probably picking up on our so let's make sure to say though you know it doesn't impact at all wherever you go to find our podcast so yeah still pushed out to your Apple you know where whatever link or whatever icon you hit to find us

[00:51:09] nothing changes yeah we're all in the same places and platforms the only thing that did change is the anchor anchor by Spotify went away it became Spotify podcast or something and now they're using what they call megaphone I think it is they bought that

[00:51:21] and everything's moving there but basically Spotify Apple it's you know if you have Spotify you'll find us so and yeah we appreciate the support it's it's I think we're

[00:51:29] Julie last I looked at our metrics we lost some of them with the move but basically we're over 30 countries listeners in 30 countries so yeah and of course you and I know but we're both excited to see we'll have some consolidated metrics so when people ask us how many listeners

[00:51:44] or you know what type of footprint we have we'll get some much better insights into that instead of having to go to multiple places. Yeah yeah I love it I think it's going to be great for us we're you know like I said I just we just want to reach a wider audience

[00:51:56] and it's the right time for us so we hope you'll stick and stay with us as they say check out our peers over at work to find there's a really is a who's who of folks that I listened to and I looked up to many of my peers in the endless space and some other

[00:52:08] thought leaders that are around that are just tremendous so yeah check everybody out on there. Well look this has been great Julie anything else to share Jason anything else you guys have if not we'll wrap this up.

[00:52:20] Well sir we're going to finish toasting National payroll week. Yes yeah absolutely I know and Jason looks and good luck on your event thank you so much for coming excited to be working closer with you guys to get payroll to the top of the charts man.

[00:52:36] Thank you very much. Really appreciate it. Thank you.