Compensation Paradigm Shift with Special Guest Boyd Davis

[00:00:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Welcome everyone to another episode of HR amp. 2.0. I'm Pete Tilliacus and as always, I'm joined by the legendary Julie Fernandez. Welcome Julie.

[00:00:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Hey Pete, thanks so much. And we are both joined today by mutual friend Boyd Davis, who's the CEO and co-founder of PayFedery.

[00:00:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, welcome.

[00:00:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Boyd, welcome to the show.

[00:00:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, good to have you. Thank you for having me.

[00:00:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, exciting.

[00:00:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Listen, we'd love to have you start out just by giving a little bit of background and tell folks who you are.

[00:00:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Then we'll introduce the topic later and then we'll pump you with a couple of our typical questions for our guests.

[00:00:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Sure. So I'm a long, long time, too many decades tech guy.

[00:00:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Started out my career in hard tech at Intel and was at Intel for a couple of decades.

[00:00:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Very disappointed and sad to see what's happened to that great company.

[00:00:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And then when I left there, I went into the startup world and kind of slowly started moving up the stack.

[00:00:59] [SPEAKER_02]: I was working on a bunch of data technologies and was in the earlier stages of AI machine learning application development.

[00:01:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And then all in the startup world and then finally moved into application space,

[00:01:12] [SPEAKER_02]: which is where I got my deep indoctrination into compensation.

[00:01:17] [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm on my second compensation startup.

[00:01:21] [SPEAKER_02]: We sold the first one to a large ERP vendor and started our latest one now.

[00:01:28] [SPEAKER_02]: It was two years ago.

[00:01:29] [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm a reform big company guy.

[00:01:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Spent time at Intel and Accenture.

[00:01:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Both great companies, great people, but spent the last most of the last decade or so in the early stage startup world.

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's the excitement.

[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_01]: That's where the fun is.

[00:01:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, every end of the spectrum, right?

[00:01:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, listen, as you mentioned, you found your way into compensation,

[00:01:52] [SPEAKER_00]: but we'd love to know and we ask all of our guests how you got into HR compensation space.

[00:01:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And then from there, more interestingly, why on earth do you stay?

[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I have to say that my entrance into compensation was borderline accidental.

[00:02:09] [SPEAKER_02]: So I knew that I'm a big believer in technology.

[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_02]: That's where I've spent my career.

[00:02:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And as I worked through the decades of my career,

[00:02:21] [SPEAKER_02]: I realized all the value is in application software really.

[00:02:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Everything else is just a means to an end.

[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, after I had left Accenture,

[00:02:31] [SPEAKER_02]: I was introduced to a real compensation technology expert, my co-founder, Barq Adali.

[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And he had started a compensation planning or so the process of managing the merit cycle.

[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_02]: That was our first company together and I got into a deep.

[00:02:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Although the fascinating thing about my entry into compensation was

[00:02:54] [SPEAKER_02]: I drew enormously on my experiences from Intel,

[00:02:58] [SPEAKER_02]: because that's where I was a new college graduate, first level manager,

[00:03:03] [SPEAKER_02]: mid-level manager and ultimately an executive running a business unit.

[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_02]: And I saw that whole journey of how compensation affected talent from that perspective.

[00:03:12] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'll have to say kudos to the Intel compensation team from the 90s,

[00:03:17] [SPEAKER_02]: if I date myself a little bit.

[00:03:20] [SPEAKER_02]: They had adopted some very advanced thinking around transparency

[00:03:24] [SPEAKER_02]: and making sure that people understood how compensation related to performance

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_02]: and contributions and potential.

[00:03:33] [SPEAKER_02]: And I've carried a lot of those lessons through because surprisingly,

[00:03:37] [SPEAKER_02]: there are relatively few organizations that I deal with now

[00:03:40] [SPEAKER_02]: that are as sophisticated as Intel was back in the day in this area.

[00:03:46] [SPEAKER_02]: But I always feel like I bring a business leadership perspective to comp

[00:03:51] [SPEAKER_02]: because to me it was, I was the one complaining about,

[00:03:56] [SPEAKER_02]: oh, you're not paying people and my people enough.

[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_02]: And now looking at it from the other side,

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_02]: I always say I was one of those jerk executives who thought they knew how compensation worked.

[00:04:07] [SPEAKER_02]: But I feel like I'm the fox in the henhouse of helping the compensation community know

[00:04:13] [SPEAKER_02]: how to communicate with leadership.

[00:04:16] [SPEAKER_02]: So I feel like I sit on both sides,

[00:04:18] [SPEAKER_02]: although now I'm firmly a hardcore comp guy after doing it for so many years.

[00:04:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Hey, by the way, shout out to your partner in crime, Barcat Ali.

[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_00]: I've had a chance to get to know him well over the last many months.

[00:04:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And we are nothing without our partners in crime,

[00:04:34] [SPEAKER_00]: as you know from Pete and I's pairing here.

[00:04:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:04:38] [SPEAKER_02]: And Barcat is one of those crazy guys who knows deeply compensation,

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_02]: but he is equally deep in software architecture.

[00:04:48] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's why it's really one of the sources of our differentiation, I think,

[00:04:52] [SPEAKER_02]: is we have a number of competitors, lots of people play in this space

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_02]: and some of them are very, very deep in comp

[00:04:57] [SPEAKER_02]: and some of them are very, very deep in tech.

[00:05:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Very, very few of them are equally adept at both

[00:05:04] [SPEAKER_02]: and I think that's given us an ability to deliver an insightful thing.

[00:05:09] [SPEAKER_02]: But we're not here to talk about my product, but yeah, Barcat is very, very special.

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Hey, so I think we've given folks a little bit of a hint

[00:05:16] [SPEAKER_00]: of what our topic is going to be for today.

[00:05:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, we're doing some research on it, right?

[00:05:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's right.

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_00]: So we wanted to talk with you, Boyd,

[00:05:24] [SPEAKER_00]: about the changing landscape of compensation,

[00:05:26] [SPEAKER_00]: which is near and dear to your heart.

[00:05:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And especially in today's landscape,

[00:05:31] [SPEAKER_00]: employers seem to need to share more details

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_00]: about their compensation philosophy and structure

[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_00]: than ever before in history, right?

[00:05:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And I know you have some thoughts about why that is.

[00:05:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you know, so the biggest change in compensation

[00:05:45] [SPEAKER_02]: is definitely the shift toward transparency

[00:05:49] [SPEAKER_02]: and transparency is a loaded word.

[00:05:52] [SPEAKER_02]: It's in some senses.

[00:05:54] [SPEAKER_02]: You have a number of laws being passed.

[00:05:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I think we're up to 22 states in the United States,

[00:06:01] [SPEAKER_02]: significant parts of the European Union and the UK and Canada.

[00:06:06] [SPEAKER_02]: And you know, maybe a little bit less though in Asia and Latin America,

[00:06:09] [SPEAKER_02]: there's laws being passed to say you have to publish

[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_02]: the estimated range for a given job when you post it.

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And you have to tell an employee who's in a job,

[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_02]: what's the range for their job?

[00:06:22] [SPEAKER_02]: And the purpose of it, of course, is to make it easier

[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_02]: for traditionally underrepresented groups,

[00:06:30] [SPEAKER_02]: in particularly, you know, the gender gap

[00:06:33] [SPEAKER_02]: where women are perceived to maybe not be as aggressive

[00:06:38] [SPEAKER_02]: in negotiating pay and therefore making it more transparent,

[00:06:42] [SPEAKER_02]: will close that gender wage gap.

[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's a whole topic for another whole podcast

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_02]: to talk about the motivation for the laws

[00:06:50] [SPEAKER_02]: and whether they'll work and whether the premise itself is true.

[00:06:54] [SPEAKER_02]: I have some reservations about it,

[00:06:56] [SPEAKER_02]: but the reality is that the laws are pushing in one direction

[00:07:00] [SPEAKER_02]: and you may like the laws or dislike the laws.

[00:07:03] [SPEAKER_02]: They're happening to me, the bigger thing

[00:07:06] [SPEAKER_02]: and I have young adult children

[00:07:09] [SPEAKER_02]: is the generational shift.

[00:07:12] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, they expect, they're much more willing to share

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_02]: details about their pay with one another

[00:07:19] [SPEAKER_02]: and they have a much higher expectation of understanding pay.

[00:07:23] [SPEAKER_02]: So I think this shift is not just the legal shift,

[00:07:25] [SPEAKER_02]: it's also a generational shift.

[00:07:27] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think it's welcome.

[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I look at it like the stock market, right?

[00:07:32] [SPEAKER_02]: The labor market is a market

[00:07:34] [SPEAKER_02]: and markets perform better

[00:07:36] [SPEAKER_02]: when there's transparency between buyers and sellers.

[00:07:40] [SPEAKER_02]: So I look at this as a very great thing

[00:07:42] [SPEAKER_02]: so that more people can get paid what they're worth.

[00:07:46] [SPEAKER_02]: By the way, unfortunately for some employees or job seekers,

[00:07:51] [SPEAKER_02]: what you're worth may not be what you'd like to make.

[00:07:54] [SPEAKER_02]: So it cuts both ways, right?

[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_02]: People should get paid for the value that they contribute

[00:07:59] [SPEAKER_02]: and but it's radically changing compensation

[00:08:03] [SPEAKER_02]: in a number of different ways

[00:08:04] [SPEAKER_02]: that have nothing to do with the laws or compliance.

[00:08:08] [SPEAKER_02]: It has to do with, you know, how do you construct your

[00:08:11] [SPEAKER_02]: your pay strategy?

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_02]: How do you monitor it and communicate it?

[00:08:16] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think those implications are quite significant

[00:08:18] [SPEAKER_02]: and represent a challenge particularly

[00:08:22] [SPEAKER_02]: for those organizations outside of, you know,

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_02]: the largest organizations in the world.

[00:08:27] [SPEAKER_02]: If you have fewer than 10,000 employees,

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_02]: the challenge is much, much greater

[00:08:30] [SPEAKER_02]: than if you're my former employers in telecensure.

[00:08:34] [SPEAKER_02]: They have massive teams to go kind of manage this,

[00:08:37] [SPEAKER_02]: but you get down to, you know, even a 200 person shop.

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, they probably don't have any compensation

[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_02]: professionals on their team and yet they're going to have

[00:08:46] [SPEAKER_02]: to publish pay ranges and be able to explain them.

[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's the changes, the breadth of how many people

[00:08:53] [SPEAKER_02]: need to be prepared to communicate what they're

[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_02]: going to pay for a job they post.

[00:08:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know, that you mentioned the transparency

[00:09:02] [SPEAKER_01]: being, you know, the definition of that.

[00:09:05] [SPEAKER_01]: It's there's probably a different lens for every generation

[00:09:07] [SPEAKER_01]: as to what they expect, right?

[00:09:09] [SPEAKER_01]: What they're willing to tolerate in that regard.

[00:09:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I have your two objections to it and both of them

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_02]: are kind of valid.

[00:09:15] [SPEAKER_02]: One is they immediately think of transparency being like

[00:09:19] [SPEAKER_02]: like a government organization, right?

[00:09:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Like Universal State publish everybody's absolute pay

[00:09:25] [SPEAKER_02]: on a website.

[00:09:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Military.

[00:09:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, the military very, very few people believe

[00:09:29] [SPEAKER_02]: that that's the right path for the for the private

[00:09:33] [SPEAKER_02]: sector.

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And the other one is just kind of a knee jerk government

[00:09:36] [SPEAKER_02]: shouldn't tell me what to do if if I'm going to under

[00:09:39] [SPEAKER_02]: pay somebody, you know, and they are willing to take

[00:09:42] [SPEAKER_02]: it and I should be able to go do that.

[00:09:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I get a little bit of that and I understand that mindset.

[00:09:46] [SPEAKER_02]: But again, I kind of like it in fact is who would want

[00:09:51] [SPEAKER_02]: the public stock markets to be operate the same way

[00:09:55] [SPEAKER_02]: where some people got to buy stock at a different price?

[00:09:58] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I think markets.

[00:10:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, when the buyers and sellers have clear understanding

[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_02]: of one another and I think it's a fair role for

[00:10:06] [SPEAKER_02]: for governments to make that happen because, you know,

[00:10:11] [SPEAKER_02]: it's not like saying you have to pay somebody something.

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Nobody is saying, okay, you know, at least in this context

[00:10:17] [SPEAKER_02]: of transparency that you must pay people the same amount.

[00:10:21] [SPEAKER_02]: It's not even that.

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_02]: It's just that you have to be able to say when you,

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, when an employee comes and says, okay,

[00:10:27] [SPEAKER_02]: what are you offering for this job?

[00:10:29] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, the seller say what it costs.

[00:10:32] [SPEAKER_02]: That's yeah.

[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, spoiler alert.

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_00]: I know we've talked a few times about this mini mini poll

[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_00]: or mini survey we have on compensation out.

[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_00]: One of the questions there is specifically asking practitioners

[00:10:45] [SPEAKER_00]: what is transparency?

[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_00]: What does transparency mean to you and what level

[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_00]: of transparency exists in your organization?

[00:10:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Is it, you know, anything from none to, you know,

[00:10:55] [SPEAKER_00]: we just communicate our methodology and kind of,

[00:10:58] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, maybe where we expect to fit in the in

[00:11:00] [SPEAKER_00]: the range, you know, of salaries or all the way down

[00:11:04] [SPEAKER_00]: to, you know, military style, you know, open.

[00:11:08] [SPEAKER_01]: It's all open.

[00:11:09] [SPEAKER_00]: It won't be too long here before we get some results

[00:11:13] [SPEAKER_00]: and see what folks say about that.

[00:11:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And it'll be fun to share once we get that back here

[00:11:18] [SPEAKER_00]: in a couple of weeks.

[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, and it's interesting I've seen a lot of people

[00:11:21] [SPEAKER_02]: like try to talk themselves into,

[00:11:24] [SPEAKER_02]: to not really embracing the idea and okay,

[00:11:28] [SPEAKER_02]: well, I'll just tell an employee what the range is

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_02]: for their job.

[00:11:32] [SPEAKER_02]: But it's like a thread of a knit sweater.

[00:11:35] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, you start pulling on it like, yeah,

[00:11:37] [SPEAKER_02]: but what about when you post the job for that person's

[00:11:39] [SPEAKER_02]: manager online?

[00:11:42] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, eventually people will be able to piece

[00:11:45] [SPEAKER_02]: together the entire set of ranges for a company

[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_02]: if they're out recruiting and they're sharing

[00:11:49] [SPEAKER_02]: individual ranges at a time.

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_02]: It's like, I always tell clients that I work with,

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, the story is going to get out

[00:11:58] [SPEAKER_02]: would you rather be the storyteller or have,

[00:12:00] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, have your employees fill in the gaps on their own

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_02]: withholding information from employees sounds good,

[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_02]: but I can guarantee you the stories that employees

[00:12:11] [SPEAKER_02]: weave in their own minds is much more damaging

[00:12:14] [SPEAKER_02]: and negative than even maybe an ideal story

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_02]: that you have to go through.

[00:12:20] [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, and you can see some of that playing

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_01]: out on Reddit and Glassdoor and other places

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_01]: where you're absolutely right.

[00:12:25] [SPEAKER_01]: They're controlling the narrative.

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:12:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:12:28] [SPEAKER_00]: So so, Boyd, I when you and I met, it was thanks to a mutual

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_00]: friend of all of ours actually Steve Goldberg

[00:12:35] [SPEAKER_00]: and we had a legendary.

[00:12:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Some of some of our earliest conversations,

[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_00]: you really, you know, you really you really sparked

[00:12:45] [SPEAKER_00]: my interest by talking about paradigm shifts that are

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_00]: happening as all of this happens legislatively generation,

[00:12:52] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, mindset shift.

[00:12:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And I know you have a few poignant ones,

[00:12:56] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, that you like to talk about and I wanted to see

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_00]: if we could run through a couple of them here together.

[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I love a good paradigm shift.

[00:13:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I kind of base this and you're right.

[00:13:06] [SPEAKER_02]: It's been thinking of mine for a long time.

[00:13:08] [SPEAKER_02]: That's built a lot of what we're trying to do in the

[00:13:11] [SPEAKER_02]: marketplace, but I think it's true for everybody that's

[00:13:13] [SPEAKER_02]: in the compensation practitioner domain that this shift

[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_02]: or transparency drives three major changes.

[00:13:19] [SPEAKER_02]: One is what used to be discretionary or, you know,

[00:13:23] [SPEAKER_02]: kind of when I get around to it becomes urgent.

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_02]: The second is that what used to be periodic like I talked

[00:13:32] [SPEAKER_02]: to a client yesterday that does market studies every two years,

[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, what that is now shifting to more continuous.

[00:13:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm not saying you look at it every week or anything,

[00:13:42] [SPEAKER_02]: but and then the third one is that to a large extent,

[00:13:47] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, the information around compensation structures,

[00:13:52] [SPEAKER_02]: job architectures, leveling frameworks, all the things

[00:13:55] [SPEAKER_02]: that we as comp professionals and for many of your audience

[00:13:59] [SPEAKER_02]: who aren't comp people avoid too much comp jargon, but a lot

[00:14:06] [SPEAKER_02]: of the nuts and bolts of what exists ultimately leading

[00:14:09] [SPEAKER_02]: to a salary range table.

[00:14:11] [SPEAKER_02]: So for this job you have this range.

[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_02]: That's all been quite isolated.

[00:14:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Oftentimes residing in spreadsheets maybe in some database

[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_02]: inside a HRIS system, but now more and more,

[00:14:24] [SPEAKER_02]: that's going to be connected and give me a good example.

[00:14:28] [SPEAKER_02]: When you go open up a requisition in your ATS, you know,

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_02]: maybe that's part of your HRIS platform, maybe not,

[00:14:35] [SPEAKER_02]: but you go in there will now all of a sudden when you open

[00:14:38] [SPEAKER_02]: up that job, you need to know what range to associate with it.

[00:14:41] [SPEAKER_02]: So you're now using the ranges on an everyday basis.

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_02]: If you publish an employee total reward statement around

[00:14:48] [SPEAKER_02]: vocal time, you know, you need to make sure that you're,

[00:14:51] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, you're probably better off sharing what the range is.

[00:14:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Because again, if somebody is at the 20th percentile of their

[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_02]: range and you don't tell them and explain why hey,

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_02]: you're in great shape.

[00:15:03] [SPEAKER_02]: You're at the bottom of your range, which means you have

[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_02]: enormous head room, right?

[00:15:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Or somebody maybe at the top of the range they feel really

[00:15:11] [SPEAKER_02]: good about it, but you say look, you know, you're going

[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_02]: to really want to move up and develop new skills or you're

[00:15:17] [SPEAKER_02]: going to kind of hit that ceiling.

[00:15:19] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's about how do you use your philosophy and your

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_02]: strategy in everyday business?

[00:15:26] [SPEAKER_02]: So I think all three of those, the discretionary divergence,

[00:15:29] [SPEAKER_02]: periodic to continuous and isolated to connected is the

[00:15:34] [SPEAKER_02]: roadmap for organizations that are really trying to evaluate

[00:15:38] [SPEAKER_02]: what they do around, you know, around pay.

[00:15:42] [SPEAKER_02]: I think thinking about that framework of how do you go from,

[00:15:45] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, being able to respond.

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_02]: And that might be the most confusing one of the three.

[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I think people get periodic going more continuous and

[00:15:53] [SPEAKER_02]: isolated, more connected.

[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_02]: When I say discretionary, it's urgent.

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_02]: It's if you think about it, you might have somebody when

[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_02]: you look at your pay and you kind of gauge it relative

[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_02]: to market, you might have a population of people who are

[00:16:06] [SPEAKER_02]: say they're dramatically underpaid.

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's just a reality that not all organizations

[00:16:13] [SPEAKER_02]: can pay exactly consistent with their strategy in a given

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_02]: cycle, right?

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_02]: The budget realities hit.

[00:16:19] [SPEAKER_02]: You have to pick and choose in the old days, you know,

[00:16:23] [SPEAKER_02]: you could wait a lot longer, right?

[00:16:25] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, you could say, okay, you know, this segment of

[00:16:29] [SPEAKER_02]: our population is not being paid exactly right, but we're

[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_02]: okay with it right now.

[00:16:33] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, let's invest elsewhere and we'll fix it over time.

[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_02]: It becomes more urgent when, you know, those people

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_02]: in those jobs are seeing job postings from talent

[00:16:43] [SPEAKER_02]: competitors that make them know much more quickly that,

[00:16:48] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, that they're underpaid.

[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_02]: So and that will put a lot of pressure and in one of the

[00:16:53] [SPEAKER_02]: things I always say are on compensation is, you know,

[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_02]: you just for the top professionals that we work with

[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_02]: and most HR professionals that are probably your listeners,

[00:17:02] [SPEAKER_02]: they can't change the budget, right?

[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_02]: That's, you know, right?

[00:17:06] [SPEAKER_02]: So what you have to do is figure out with the budget

[00:17:08] [SPEAKER_02]: you have, how do you best use it and communicate why you're

[00:17:13] [SPEAKER_02]: doing it.

[00:17:14] [SPEAKER_02]: But I, you know, I even believe if an organization is not

[00:17:19] [SPEAKER_02]: not prepared to pay somebody, say somebody's a little bit

[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_02]: below market, you know, there's a way you can explain like,

[00:17:25] [SPEAKER_02]: hey, we're a little bit behind, but here's what we're going

[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_02]: to do over the next several cycles to catch you back up

[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_02]: and here's all the other cool reasons for work for us.

[00:17:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Like the worst thing you can do is stick your head in

[00:17:35] [SPEAKER_02]: the sand and hope your employees don't don't figure

[00:17:37] [SPEAKER_02]: it out because that's just not, that's not realistic.

[00:17:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:17:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And sometimes it's not just about the comp, right?

[00:17:43] [SPEAKER_01]: It's all it's the total comp and the total rewards and all

[00:17:45] [SPEAKER_01]: of the things that come with it as well, right?

[00:17:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Some companies can offer things that are intangible or

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_01]: excuse me tangible that are not able to be offered

[00:17:52] [SPEAKER_01]: into the company.

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Like for example, when I worked at the Walt Disney

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Company, I didn't think that they paid the best,

[00:17:57] [SPEAKER_01]: but they had some perks that you couldn't get anywhere

[00:17:59] [SPEAKER_01]: else, right?

[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_01]: So a lot of people stuck around for those things

[00:18:02] [SPEAKER_01]: and the culture and other things.

[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_02]: So I think all the data suggests that, you know, compensation

[00:18:07] [SPEAKER_02]: is just one of any leading reasons, right?

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_02]: The big reason to go on here is compensations one relationship

[00:18:13] [SPEAKER_02]: with the managers to and these are not in order.

[00:18:17] [SPEAKER_02]: They're always in any survey you'll find that the second

[00:18:20] [SPEAKER_02]: big bucket is their personal relationship with the direct

[00:18:23] [SPEAKER_02]: manager and the third one is their perceived opportunity

[00:18:26] [SPEAKER_02]: for growth and he can end up in organizations need to

[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_02]: think about all three.

[00:18:30] [SPEAKER_02]: I always view it that the absolute level of compensation

[00:18:32] [SPEAKER_02]: like I'm in the software business and you know,

[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_02]: I dare anybody to try to compete with Google and Microsoft

[00:18:39] [SPEAKER_02]: for how you pay software developers, right?

[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_02]: They it's not a game you want to get into those companies

[00:18:44] [SPEAKER_02]: pay extremely extremely well.

[00:18:47] [SPEAKER_02]: But what you can do is know where relative to the

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_02]: market you want to be and then why beyond that

[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_02]: would somebody want to work for you?

[00:18:56] [SPEAKER_02]: The thing that I believe more fundamental than the

[00:18:58] [SPEAKER_02]: level of paying is you can package the value

[00:19:01] [SPEAKER_02]: proposition for employer employer in a lot of different

[00:19:05] [SPEAKER_02]: ways.

[00:19:05] [SPEAKER_02]: The thing I think is way more important is trust.

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Trust that you're being fair trust that your pay

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_02]: policies aren't arbitrary or driven by favoritism.

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, the lack of trust from employees because of

[00:19:20] [SPEAKER_02]: the way they're paid with Trump any amount of benefits

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_02]: or culture.

[00:19:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, mission all those other cool things.

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_02]: So I actually think that's that's you know, my mission

[00:19:33] [SPEAKER_02]: is to make sure that people you know understand why

[00:19:36] [SPEAKER_02]: they're being paid what they're being paid and know

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_02]: that it's not arbitrary.

[00:19:39] [SPEAKER_02]: It's not based on favoritism.

[00:19:41] [SPEAKER_02]: It's not certainly bias.

[00:19:42] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, yeah, I'm a huge guy on on you know,

[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_02]: equitable pay and that doesn't mean everybody gets

[00:19:49] [SPEAKER_02]: paid the same.

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I think most bias is unintentional.

[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_02]: It's because people don't have the right tools.

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_01]: So much the employee experience and and the pay

[00:19:57] [SPEAKER_01]: experience is built on trust and you're right.

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_01]: If that's not there, it's not really going to matter

[00:20:02] [SPEAKER_01]: what you're paying them.

[00:20:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think in turn internal the organization too.

[00:20:06] [SPEAKER_00]: So comp has always been its own thing.

[00:20:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Right?

[00:20:08] [SPEAKER_00]: You mentioned comp jargon and and there's there's a

[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_00]: whole there's a whole it's a whole practice and a

[00:20:13] [SPEAKER_00]: whole whole profession on its own.

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, it's a science.

[00:20:17] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a thing right?

[00:20:19] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a big hairy thing.

[00:20:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Art and science.

[00:20:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Art and science.

[00:20:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Have people love or were they shy away from just

[00:20:24] [SPEAKER_00]: like payroll.

[00:20:24] [SPEAKER_00]: But I think the transparency one of the things that

[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_00]: I see the most happen organizationally to companies

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_00]: or or folks that are looking across their HR staff is

[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_00]: the impact it has on recruiting and the pay that

[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_00]: you offer your new candidates, especially as we

[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_00]: come out of a tight labor market right in the war

[00:20:45] [SPEAKER_00]: on talent, you know, has been has been around

[00:20:47] [SPEAKER_00]: for a little while and how you have to now look

[00:20:51] [SPEAKER_00]: at what you're paying your new recruits and

[00:20:53] [SPEAKER_00]: your new hires and and how that compares to folks

[00:20:57] [SPEAKER_00]: who have been loyal and stable employees for a while

[00:21:00] [SPEAKER_00]: and that feels like that's one of the bigger the

[00:21:02] [SPEAKER_00]: bigger aha's or the bigger fears or the bigger

[00:21:06] [SPEAKER_00]: opportunities for employers to start to look

[00:21:08] [SPEAKER_00]: not just at surveys and compensation ranges

[00:21:11] [SPEAKER_00]: and tools, but what are you doing to recruit new

[00:21:14] [SPEAKER_00]: folks and how does that compare to the compensation

[00:21:16] [SPEAKER_00]: levels of your existing organization?

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_02]: And how you know back to the trust issue,

[00:21:22] [SPEAKER_02]: can you imagine you're in the trenches with an

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_02]: organization for seven, eight years at all of a

[00:21:28] [SPEAKER_02]: sudden, you know, they hire somebody who job hop

[00:21:31] [SPEAKER_02]: from a competitor that has less experience.

[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_02]: But you know, and they make more than you

[00:21:36] [SPEAKER_02]: and it's like for the last several years, this

[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_02]: person's been helping our competitor.

[00:21:40] [SPEAKER_02]: I've been building our business and and because

[00:21:43] [SPEAKER_02]: the labor market is hot, you know, you're going

[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_02]: to go give them more.

[00:21:46] [SPEAKER_02]: And by the way, the labor market is not as hot

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_02]: as it was, but there's still there's still

[00:21:51] [SPEAKER_02]: a lot of quits out there.

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_02]: I think I think the numbers from the Labor

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Department in July were like 3.3 million quits

[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_02]: and that's down from like 3.8.

[00:22:01] [SPEAKER_02]: So yes, that's softer and we've had hundreds of

[00:22:03] [SPEAKER_02]: thousands of layouts and all that.

[00:22:04] [SPEAKER_02]: But good talent is still difficult to get and keep.

[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, I think I think that is one of the

[00:22:11] [SPEAKER_02]: big the big trends is people need to buy into

[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_02]: the comp strategy and have it not be just the

[00:22:17] [SPEAKER_02]: job job of that one comp analyst.

[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_02]: People need to embrace it is the historical

[00:22:22] [SPEAKER_02]: role for those of us who've been in comp is the

[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, the fight is between the hiring

[00:22:29] [SPEAKER_02]: managers and the recruiters who are incentivized

[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_02]: in the case of the hiring manager to create

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_02]: the output they need in the case of the recruiter

[00:22:36] [SPEAKER_02]: to close the rack.

[00:22:38] [SPEAKER_02]: The comp person's always the bad guy saying

[00:22:41] [SPEAKER_02]: you can't do this and there's always kind of

[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_02]: a fight and and I think the point is we got

[00:22:47] [SPEAKER_02]: to give everybody the data to say you know what

[00:22:51] [SPEAKER_02]: might be penny wise to hire get that one

[00:22:53] [SPEAKER_02]: rec flows might be pound foolish if the whole

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_02]: organization.

[00:22:56] [SPEAKER_02]: And it starts to suffer but everybody needs to

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_02]: be committed to both a consistent, competitive

[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_02]: and equitable comp framework but also recruiting

[00:23:04] [SPEAKER_02]: and retaining the best talent.

[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and so that transparency has to happen

[00:23:08] [SPEAKER_00]: internally in organizations first right

[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_00]: especially where they're larger than just

[00:23:11] [SPEAKER_00]: you know one Jack of all trades has to

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_00]: handle pretty much everything because you're

[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_00]: a smaller organization so recruiting needs to

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_00]: companies to demystify what's going on over there

[00:23:21] [SPEAKER_00]: so that recruiting can you know March to the

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_00]: right drum and you know even managers who

[00:23:27] [SPEAKER_00]: are working with existing talent and you

[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_00]: know need to be concerned about their growth

[00:23:33] [SPEAKER_00]: in their development and retaining them

[00:23:35] [SPEAKER_00]: and making sure that they understand and get

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_00]: that message of trust and transparency.

[00:23:40] [SPEAKER_00]: You know sometimes they don't have the visibility

[00:23:42] [SPEAKER_00]: they need either and then you know so it's

[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_00]: transparency for all.

[00:23:46] [SPEAKER_00]: It is where we're headed.

[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_00]: It's got to go all over the place.

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_02]: You know it's interesting one of the things I

[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_02]: would also say about this new environment is

[00:23:55] [SPEAKER_02]: that compensation is extraordinarily complex.

[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_02]: You know how do you identify what to do what

[00:24:02] [SPEAKER_02]: jobs to benchmark against your job right?

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_02]: You got to that's an art and a science.

[00:24:06] [SPEAKER_02]: How do you know you know how often to

[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_02]: update it what to what happens when new

[00:24:12] [SPEAKER_02]: survey data comes out all that you know

[00:24:14] [SPEAKER_02]: one of the things I would say is we at our

[00:24:16] [SPEAKER_02]: organization we've become increasingly focused on

[00:24:20] [SPEAKER_02]: encouraging people to think about compensation

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_02]: the way you think about your car right.

[00:24:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Most people don't own a car you know you're

[00:24:28] [SPEAKER_02]: going to go fill it up with gas you're

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_02]: going to go change the oil when it needs

[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_02]: to be changed get the windshield

[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_02]: like the fluids right everybody does that

[00:24:35] [SPEAKER_02]: on their own but when there's a significant

[00:24:37] [SPEAKER_02]: challenge with the car you know few people

[00:24:40] [SPEAKER_02]: anymore can can can do what they used to

[00:24:42] [SPEAKER_02]: do in the old days of put it in a garage

[00:24:44] [SPEAKER_02]: and start taking around with it because

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_02]: you need you know super computers to talk about cars

[00:24:49] [SPEAKER_02]: so I think cops the same way I think

[00:24:51] [SPEAKER_02]: increasingly most organizations particularly

[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_02]: in those with anywhere from a few dozen

[00:24:57] [SPEAKER_02]: to a few thousand employees would be better

[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_02]: off finding some compensation experts

[00:25:03] [SPEAKER_02]: externally to help them do the heavy lifting

[00:25:07] [SPEAKER_02]: of crafting a structure updating the ranges

[00:25:11] [SPEAKER_02]: but then have used the internal expertise

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_02]: around comp to manage the comp cycle and really

[00:25:17] [SPEAKER_02]: tailored individual employees.

[00:25:19] [SPEAKER_02]: So I see that by location happening in a big

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_02]: way and I think we're going to see massive

[00:25:24] [SPEAKER_02]: growth in the in the compensation

[00:25:27] [SPEAKER_02]: consulting arena as more people need to go

[00:25:31] [SPEAKER_02]: and get there you know either you can

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_02]: use the analogy of a car go to your

[00:25:35] [SPEAKER_02]: mechanic or you know you know maybe

[00:25:38] [SPEAKER_02]: the medical analogy would be most organizations

[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_02]: can hire their own primary care physician

[00:25:45] [SPEAKER_02]: for compensation but when it gets to be a little

[00:25:48] [SPEAKER_02]: bit more complex got to go outside and find a specialist.

[00:25:51] [SPEAKER_02]: So I'll be a huge shout out to a to Julie's

[00:25:55] [SPEAKER_02]: organization is one of the ones that I think

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_02]: is leading this charge to make make some

[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_02]: of these services that have to be personalized

[00:26:04] [SPEAKER_02]: and tailored.

[00:26:05] [SPEAKER_02]: So I really believe we're probably going to get me

[00:26:08] [SPEAKER_02]: to ask what do I recommend people do but that'll

[00:26:11] [SPEAKER_02]: be one of my recommendations is for most

[00:26:13] [SPEAKER_02]: organizations find your specialist actually

[00:26:15] [SPEAKER_02]: and then make sure that you have tools that

[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_02]: that allow you to work with it and that'll

[00:26:19] [SPEAKER_02]: help you handle all three of those paradigm shifts.

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_01]: You know that brings up a good point.

[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_01]: One of the things I wanted to ask you Boyd was

[00:26:25] [SPEAKER_01]: what happens right we were already at about

[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_01]: what like 30 to 40 plus percent gig economy

[00:26:31] [SPEAKER_01]: right gig workers now.

[00:26:32] [SPEAKER_01]: We're clearly heading well over 50% in the coming

[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_01]: years and some say we might even get to more

[00:26:38] [SPEAKER_01]: of a balance where most of workers are gig right

[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_01]: which then means that a lot of us then are

[00:26:43] [SPEAKER_01]: solepreneurs and that then means that we're

[00:26:46] [SPEAKER_01]: really going to be setting.

[00:26:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean as we are now in some way setting

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_01]: compensation based on what skills are worth.

[00:26:53] [SPEAKER_01]: In that moment what happens to compensation at

[00:26:56] [SPEAKER_01]: that point is that where those consultants are

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_01]: going to come into play because I would imagine

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_01]: it's going to get really really real time very

[00:27:02] [SPEAKER_01]: real time that you're going to have to know

[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_01]: what this skill is worth to be able to compete

[00:27:06] [SPEAKER_01]: for the right people at the right moment at

[00:27:07] [SPEAKER_01]: that you know in the flow.

[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_02]: That's a great question Pete and maybe I'm

[00:27:13] [SPEAKER_02]: a bit of a contrarian on this.

[00:27:15] [SPEAKER_02]: There is some level of people looking at

[00:27:17] [SPEAKER_02]: the early points of a curve and extracting

[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_02]: it out to an endpoint right.

[00:27:22] [SPEAKER_02]: The death of the job is I think Mackenzie

[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_02]: highlighted this a couple of years ago that

[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_02]: you know the job is going to go away and it was

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_02]: everything was going to migrate to skills.

[00:27:33] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm a massive believer in skills.

[00:27:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Most organizations are woefully behind in associating

[00:27:39] [SPEAKER_02]: the skills they have with the output they need

[00:27:41] [SPEAKER_02]: right we're still too heavily as a society based

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_02]: on credentialing and signaling and things

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_02]: that don't relate to an actual output.

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Having said that I'm not a big believer

[00:27:51] [SPEAKER_02]: that I think the path will go down is to

[00:27:55] [SPEAKER_02]: have jobs to find more and more around baskets

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_02]: of skills as opposed to the idea of skills

[00:28:01] [SPEAKER_02]: replacing it because there's so many challenges

[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_02]: we have yet to achieve.

[00:28:05] [SPEAKER_02]: There's not a universal taxonomy of skills

[00:28:07] [SPEAKER_02]: even if there was a universal taxonomy of skills

[00:28:11] [SPEAKER_02]: there's no assessment for what those

[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_02]: skills represent in an actual practice

[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_02]: the job of a recruiter in the modern day

[00:28:19] [SPEAKER_02]: is to identify the skills you need

[00:28:21] [SPEAKER_02]: and then talk to the candidate to get examples

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_02]: of where they demonstrated that skill.

[00:28:26] [SPEAKER_02]: It's not a binary thing you know oh you have

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_02]: a soft field of communication oh you have

[00:28:30] [SPEAKER_02]: a hard skill of Python you know it's not a checkoff

[00:28:34] [SPEAKER_02]: right there's no systemic way to view it

[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_02]: it's much more individualized to say okay

[00:28:39] [SPEAKER_02]: you've listed the skill explain to me

[00:28:41] [SPEAKER_02]: how you demonstrate it's the skill.

[00:28:43] [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm a huge massive believer in skills

[00:28:46] [SPEAKER_02]: but I think people that are leaping

[00:28:48] [SPEAKER_02]: to to a fundamental shift in how everything

[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_02]: is done maybe putting up a card a little

[00:28:53] [SPEAKER_02]: ahead of the horse I think other things

[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_02]: to make sure your job descriptions in your

[00:28:57] [SPEAKER_02]: job catalog are heavily based on skills

[00:29:00] [SPEAKER_02]: you know it's not a job to sit here's a responsibility

[00:29:03] [SPEAKER_02]: and skills are a bachelor's degree

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_02]: and six years of experience that's a bad job

[00:29:08] [SPEAKER_02]: description right fix those and the jobs

[00:29:12] [SPEAKER_02]: framework and the benchmarking framework

[00:29:14] [SPEAKER_02]: that exists will get us for several more years.

[00:29:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I skip your question on the gig economy

[00:29:20] [SPEAKER_02]: because honestly I haven't thought about it

[00:29:24] [SPEAKER_02]: if I an individual gig economy right

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_02]: there's a lot of the gig economy that is firm to firm

[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_02]: right so if if if if an organization wants to

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_02]: to get some compensation help

[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_02]: they're probably not going to go just go find

[00:29:42] [SPEAKER_02]: a compensation consultant up work or something

[00:29:44] [SPEAKER_02]: right you could know and no offense to anybody

[00:29:47] [SPEAKER_02]: that goes down yeah it's more likely you're going

[00:29:51] [SPEAKER_02]: to call Julie's organization and and so the compensation

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_02]: compensation thing now Julie make sure she's got a

[00:29:57] [SPEAKER_02]: good comp strategy so she's got the right talent

[00:29:59] [SPEAKER_02]: so I think I think the breakdown of organizations

[00:30:02] [SPEAKER_02]: and outsourcing that I think will be you know

[00:30:06] [SPEAKER_02]: quite quite prominent but I'm not sure if we're

[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_02]: going to get to everybody's you know a 1099

[00:30:13] [SPEAKER_02]: contractor and and buddy works for themselves

[00:30:16] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that's unlikely to yeah there's some very lofty

[00:30:20] [SPEAKER_01]: predictions about what what you know how many workers

[00:30:22] [SPEAKER_01]: will be solepreneur types and I'm just curious

[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_01]: what that's going to do to these to these but I

[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah no I agree I wouldn't say go get a one off

[00:30:30] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah go to go to the go to the go to the

[00:30:33] [SPEAKER_01]: consultants but but not specifically for comp

[00:30:35] [SPEAKER_01]: but I just mean in general.

[00:30:37] [SPEAKER_02]: I was using that as an example that close to my heart

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_02]: but you know you know I'm the CEO of a company

[00:30:44] [SPEAKER_02]: and you know I outsource marketing I outsource

[00:30:47] [SPEAKER_02]: finance you know I outsource the chunk of engineering

[00:30:51] [SPEAKER_02]: most of it is is firm deferred.

[00:30:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah that's a great and I think organizations should

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_02]: think that way I I guess I like to promote the

[00:31:00] [SPEAKER_02]: idea of compensation consultants because I think

[00:31:03] [SPEAKER_02]: a lot of our our target market the customers

[00:31:06] [SPEAKER_02]: that I talked to they don't necessarily think

[00:31:08] [SPEAKER_02]: that way they think they should be able to do

[00:31:10] [SPEAKER_02]: it on their own higher nature generalist and

[00:31:12] [SPEAKER_02]: have them pick a couple of world at work classes

[00:31:15] [SPEAKER_02]: that's that's a that's a bad yeah you know

[00:31:18] [SPEAKER_02]: you can do that for the application of comp

[00:31:22] [SPEAKER_02]: which is like driving your car right you can you

[00:31:24] [SPEAKER_02]: can get people to do that but when it comes to

[00:31:27] [SPEAKER_02]: building the car fixing the car maybe not so much

[00:31:33] [SPEAKER_02]: or the lever a few hundred hundreds of other

[00:31:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Julie's out there that have those skills agreed

[00:31:39] [SPEAKER_02]: so it's funny I'm gonna be some software executives

[00:31:43] [SPEAKER_02]: like oh our goal of our software is to replace

[00:31:46] [SPEAKER_02]: consultants and I just think that's that's silly

[00:31:49] [SPEAKER_02]: this are our goal of ours is to make the output

[00:31:53] [SPEAKER_02]: of a compensation professional more impactful

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_02]: in the organization and to increase the efficiency

[00:31:58] [SPEAKER_02]: of delivering that impact and for the vast majority

[00:32:01] [SPEAKER_02]: of our customers the people that create that

[00:32:04] [SPEAKER_02]: output should probably not be you know a lot

[00:32:08] [SPEAKER_02]: of organizations shouldn't afford to hire a full-time

[00:32:10] [SPEAKER_02]: person with those skills much cheaper and better

[00:32:13] [SPEAKER_02]: to go to go to an expert outside so you know

[00:32:15] [SPEAKER_00]: knowing your technology guy at heart boy and that's

[00:32:18] [SPEAKER_00]: how we started as we began our conversation I

[00:32:21] [SPEAKER_00]: definitely wanted to make sure we had a little

[00:32:22] [SPEAKER_00]: chance to talk to you about the trends you see

[00:32:24] [SPEAKER_00]: in technology we know you've been you know down

[00:32:27] [SPEAKER_00]: a path of a technology software solution before

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_00]: and are added again and so you know how are

[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_00]: you seeing technology adapting to these kinds of

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_00]: trends and you know what what gets you excited

[00:32:40] [SPEAKER_00]: on the technology sphere yeah it's crazy that I've

[00:32:43] [SPEAKER_02]: talked about compensation and alluded to software

[00:32:46] [SPEAKER_02]: for the better part of 35 minutes or so I haven't

[00:32:49] [SPEAKER_02]: haven't used the two letters I know you're gonna

[00:32:51] [SPEAKER_02]: now though it was my design it's funny I'm

[00:32:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm I've been a tech guy for a long time

[00:33:00] [SPEAKER_02]: and I've seen I've seen you know so many

[00:33:02] [SPEAKER_02]: things that that were delivered by the technology

[00:33:05] [SPEAKER_02]: community before their time you know and the

[00:33:08] [SPEAKER_02]: countless examples of you know I can go back

[00:33:11] [SPEAKER_02]: to the early 90s for Intel doing an mp3 player

[00:33:15] [SPEAKER_02]: many years ahead of the iPod right just didn't

[00:33:19] [SPEAKER_02]: have any of the things around it to make it

[00:33:20] [SPEAKER_02]: useful right so I'm used to that like being

[00:33:23] [SPEAKER_02]: ahead of the curve but you know AI is

[00:33:26] [SPEAKER_02]: profound I you can't you can't under you can't

[00:33:29] [SPEAKER_02]: overstate it it is gonna have a profound

[00:33:31] [SPEAKER_02]: impact but I think there's been so much AI

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_02]: hype and people are tired of it they're jaded

[00:33:37] [SPEAKER_02]: by it and to me AI is just a tool it's like a

[00:33:42] [SPEAKER_02]: few years ago we were talking about cloud

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_02]: and then big data and you know now it's it's

[00:33:46] [SPEAKER_02]: AI and specifically a large language model

[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_02]: is LLM or chat things like chat tpt for those

[00:33:53] [SPEAKER_02]: people that acronym all of them are just

[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_02]: tools and what actually values value what

[00:34:00] [SPEAKER_02]: matters in the end is can you deliver software

[00:34:04] [SPEAKER_02]: that provides real value and efficiency or

[00:34:09] [SPEAKER_02]: or effectiveness of a given process and AI

[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_02]: anybody doesn't use AI to to accomplish those

[00:34:16] [SPEAKER_02]: goals is missing them is missing the opportunity

[00:34:19] [SPEAKER_02]: because the tool is outstanding but anybody

[00:34:23] [SPEAKER_02]: who just wants to sprinkle AI in for the

[00:34:25] [SPEAKER_02]: sake of using AI I'm afraid we see a little

[00:34:28] [SPEAKER_02]: too much of that I'll give you a very

[00:34:31] [SPEAKER_02]: painful example AI washing AI wash which has

[00:34:35] [SPEAKER_02]: been around for a long time remember I was

[00:34:36] [SPEAKER_02]: doing green watching in 2015 we were building

[00:34:39] [SPEAKER_02]: AI applications for large enterprises in my

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_02]: one of my previous companies cogentic so

[00:34:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I was an AI guy before I was a comp guy

[00:34:51] [SPEAKER_02]: but the great example is this concept of job

[00:34:55] [SPEAKER_02]: matching which for people that aren't comp

[00:34:57] [SPEAKER_02]: peaks is more complicated and you think it

[00:35:00] [SPEAKER_02]: just means that okay if I have a job say

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm hiring for a digital marketing person

[00:35:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I could say I want to hire a mid-level

[00:35:08] [SPEAKER_02]: digital marketing specialist okay I know

[00:35:13] [SPEAKER_02]: what that means for me how do I know

[00:35:15] [SPEAKER_02]: how to map that to a benchmark so that

[00:35:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I know what the peak talent I want

[00:35:20] [SPEAKER_02]: what's the real compliment right that's

[00:35:22] [SPEAKER_02]: a very tedious process you know you have

[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_02]: to select your your benchmark surveys

[00:35:27] [SPEAKER_02]: that you want to go through and then look

[00:35:30] [SPEAKER_02]: at job titles and then make sure that

[00:35:31] [SPEAKER_02]: the when you dig under the job titles

[00:35:33] [SPEAKER_02]: particularly as we said moving to skills

[00:35:36] [SPEAKER_02]: are they really reflective of the right

[00:35:38] [SPEAKER_02]: skills that I need AI is a great

[00:35:41] [SPEAKER_02]: application for that you know that

[00:35:43] [SPEAKER_02]: so that's what we built a version of

[00:35:45] [SPEAKER_02]: that where you can really dig in and

[00:35:47] [SPEAKER_02]: use natural language processing and

[00:35:50] [SPEAKER_02]: and find matches and it actually requires

[00:35:53] [SPEAKER_02]: machine learning it's not just a text to

[00:35:55] [SPEAKER_02]: text match because you've got to dig in

[00:35:57] [SPEAKER_02]: a little bit more and understand what the

[00:35:58] [SPEAKER_02]: text means but so that we love

[00:36:02] [SPEAKER_02]: we love artificial intelligence our whole

[00:36:04] [SPEAKER_02]: company is built on our AI but we're

[00:36:06] [SPEAKER_02]: downplaying it because it's not the AI

[00:36:09] [SPEAKER_02]: that matters it's the result that you

[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_02]: know what used to take you if you had

[00:36:14] [SPEAKER_02]: a hundred jobs it could take you the

[00:36:16] [SPEAKER_02]: better part of a person week to

[00:36:18] [SPEAKER_02]: match those jobs up to surveys we can

[00:36:21] [SPEAKER_02]: get that down to a couple of hours it

[00:36:24] [SPEAKER_02]: is not like AI is telling the answer

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_02]: it's just saying these are the most

[00:36:28] [SPEAKER_02]: likely matches because you as a

[00:36:30] [SPEAKER_02]: professional and again many cases

[00:36:32] [SPEAKER_02]: going to be a consultant but you as

[00:36:34] [SPEAKER_02]: the professional knows what that job

[00:36:36] [SPEAKER_02]: really is by the way the job description

[00:36:38] [SPEAKER_02]: that you wrote is probably not very good

[00:36:39] [SPEAKER_02]: anyway you know yeah so AI is profound

[00:36:45] [SPEAKER_02]: it's it's timely because all these

[00:36:46] [SPEAKER_02]: challenges that we face you know doing

[00:36:49] [SPEAKER_02]: it the old way is not going to work

[00:36:51] [SPEAKER_02]: and the other thing relative to

[00:36:53] [SPEAKER_02]: technology I think is I don't think

[00:36:55] [SPEAKER_02]: people realize how much software

[00:36:56] [SPEAKER_02]: architecture has changed in the last

[00:36:59] [SPEAKER_02]: five or six years oh you know and the

[00:37:02] [SPEAKER_02]: average lay person shouldn't worry

[00:37:04] [SPEAKER_02]: about software architecture too much

[00:37:06] [SPEAKER_02]: but you know the best way I can give

[00:37:08] [SPEAKER_02]: an analogy of what's changed is anybody

[00:37:11] [SPEAKER_02]: used to do model airplanes I used to

[00:37:14] [SPEAKER_02]: build model airplanes when I was a

[00:37:15] [SPEAKER_02]: kid you get the kit and you build

[00:37:18] [SPEAKER_02]: a model airplane and that's the plane

[00:37:19] [SPEAKER_02]: you had right if you wanted to change

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_02]: the plane you're either going to hack

[00:37:24] [SPEAKER_02]: it up with an exact you're not going

[00:37:26] [SPEAKER_02]: to get that darn other than that plane

[00:37:30] [SPEAKER_02]: is not going to happen as opposed

[00:37:31] [SPEAKER_02]: to building something cool with Legos

[00:37:34] [SPEAKER_02]: you know you built something with Legos

[00:37:37] [SPEAKER_02]: and you don't like it you can easily

[00:37:38] [SPEAKER_02]: take the Legos apart that's what's

[00:37:40] [SPEAKER_02]: happened in software used to be written

[00:37:42] [SPEAKER_02]: anything written 10 years ago was

[00:37:44] [SPEAKER_02]: way more like a model airplane so you

[00:37:47] [SPEAKER_02]: as a client say well I want you know

[00:37:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I want this configured a little bit

[00:37:51] [SPEAKER_02]: differently massive effort to rebuild

[00:37:53] [SPEAKER_02]: the plane whereas now everything is

[00:37:55] [SPEAKER_02]: like Legos so I think as much as AI

[00:37:58] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that move to you know you

[00:38:02] [SPEAKER_02]: might the buzzwords or services

[00:38:04] [SPEAKER_02]: oriented architecture those kind of

[00:38:07] [SPEAKER_02]: things but forget any of your audience

[00:38:09] [SPEAKER_02]: should care less what they should

[00:38:11] [SPEAKER_02]: care about is you know when

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_02]: they're looking at software is look

[00:38:14] [SPEAKER_02]: for those that are Legos you know

[00:38:17] [SPEAKER_02]: maybe a little bit more modular and modern

[00:38:19] [SPEAKER_02]: because that really provides a lot of

[00:38:21] [SPEAKER_02]: advantage and then you combine that with

[00:38:23] [SPEAKER_02]: a very target don't just have any vendor

[00:38:26] [SPEAKER_02]: that tells you they have AI in it ask

[00:38:29] [SPEAKER_02]: them what is the AI actually doing

[00:38:32] [SPEAKER_02]: and do you believe the the algorithm

[00:38:36] [SPEAKER_02]: do you believe you know if all

[00:38:37] [SPEAKER_02]: they're doing is is you know doing

[00:38:41] [SPEAKER_02]: an open AI or chat GPT call that could

[00:38:44] [SPEAKER_02]: be really valuable like it's UI yeah don't

[00:38:47] [SPEAKER_02]: don't overestimate how cool it is and

[00:38:50] [SPEAKER_02]: if they're telling you they're predicting

[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_02]: a result of AI ask ask how do you see

[00:38:55] [SPEAKER_01]: any risks or concerns with AI

[00:38:57] [SPEAKER_01]: specifically for comp I mean like with

[00:38:59] [SPEAKER_01]: recruiting right it's biased with

[00:39:00] [SPEAKER_01]: engagement it might be misreading

[00:39:03] [SPEAKER_01]: someone's intentions what about recruiting

[00:39:05] [SPEAKER_01]: or comp do you see a threat or a

[00:39:08] [SPEAKER_01]: concern anywhere there again I wouldn't

[00:39:09] [SPEAKER_02]: say AI is the threat I think it's

[00:39:11] [SPEAKER_02]: it's what are you going to ask AI to do

[00:39:14] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah if you if you went to chat

[00:39:17] [SPEAKER_02]: GPT and said I want to hire a

[00:39:20] [SPEAKER_02]: you know a finance analyst which I

[00:39:22] [SPEAKER_02]: am that is a horrible use of that

[00:39:25] [SPEAKER_02]: don't do that you know it would be

[00:39:30] [SPEAKER_02]: chances of that being a good

[00:39:32] [SPEAKER_02]: good outcome or almost yeah

[00:39:34] [SPEAKER_02]: so I wouldn't say there's just a broad

[00:39:38] [SPEAKER_02]: category of you know there are people

[00:39:42] [SPEAKER_02]: that would like to say hey could could

[00:39:43] [SPEAKER_02]: AI tell you you know where this

[00:39:46] [SPEAKER_02]: individual should get paid and I don't

[00:39:49] [SPEAKER_02]: believe yet in the the data integrity

[00:39:52] [SPEAKER_02]: of what you need to you up make that

[00:39:56] [SPEAKER_02]: prediction without significant consequences

[00:39:59] [SPEAKER_02]: so but AI for doing something like

[00:40:05] [SPEAKER_02]: you're sitting through large amount

[00:40:06] [SPEAKER_02]: AI really good sitting through large

[00:40:08] [SPEAKER_02]: amounts of data and trying to narrow

[00:40:09] [SPEAKER_02]: down the best like the options human

[00:40:12] [SPEAKER_02]: beings I think should always make the

[00:40:14] [SPEAKER_02]: final decision so totally emotional

[00:40:17] [SPEAKER_01]: intelligence has to yeah I mean HR

[00:40:19] [SPEAKER_02]: the agent never really this is not a

[00:40:23] [SPEAKER_02]: attorney business but I so I just

[00:40:26] [SPEAKER_02]: think I definitely agree that every

[00:40:28] [SPEAKER_02]: crack like HR practitioners people

[00:40:30] [SPEAKER_02]: on your listening to this podcast that

[00:40:32] [SPEAKER_02]: are in HR payroll get a little level

[00:40:35] [SPEAKER_02]: of familiarity I wrote an article a

[00:40:38] [SPEAKER_02]: few a couple years ago about AI basics

[00:40:40] [SPEAKER_02]: for HR people is knowing you know how

[00:40:44] [SPEAKER_02]: things work not to know how to you

[00:40:46] [SPEAKER_02]: know pay a random forest algorithm for

[00:40:48] [SPEAKER_02]: some other algorithm yeah just know

[00:40:50] [SPEAKER_02]: the basics that will give you a chance

[00:40:51] [SPEAKER_02]: to ask the right questions Google has

[00:40:54] [SPEAKER_01]: some great free training you can do

[00:40:55] [SPEAKER_01]: out there I'll try to find the link I

[00:40:57] [SPEAKER_01]: used when I did it and put it out there

[00:40:58] [SPEAKER_01]: for everyone it's it's there's plenty

[00:41:00] [SPEAKER_01]: of free resources to get some training

[00:41:02] [SPEAKER_02]: and then you have to find ones that

[00:41:03] [SPEAKER_02]: are in late late late person speak

[00:41:05] [SPEAKER_02]: right because it can be intimidating

[00:41:06] [SPEAKER_02]: yes AI very very simply a prediction

[00:41:09] [SPEAKER_02]: that's all it is it's just statistical

[00:41:10] [SPEAKER_02]: prediction and you got to you got to

[00:41:13] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean I think people leap immediately

[00:41:15] [SPEAKER_02]: to the you know space Odyssey how

[00:41:17] [SPEAKER_02]: taken over the world and and the

[00:41:19] [SPEAKER_02]: idea of generalized artificial

[00:41:21] [SPEAKER_02]: intelligence which is the robots

[00:41:24] [SPEAKER_02]: taking over the world scenario

[00:41:26] [SPEAKER_02]: means smarter people than I am

[00:41:27] [SPEAKER_02]: have said that's a real legitimate

[00:41:29] [SPEAKER_02]: threat it's just not even in the

[00:41:33] [SPEAKER_02]: earliest stages of being it's

[00:41:36] [SPEAKER_02]: possible that it's not even you

[00:41:37] [SPEAKER_02]: know not even feasible ever right

[00:41:40] [SPEAKER_02]: what we're looking at now is is much

[00:41:42] [SPEAKER_02]: more mundane computers turning a lot

[00:41:45] [SPEAKER_02]: of information to make a statistical

[00:41:48] [SPEAKER_02]: prediction and I don't know people

[00:41:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if they're not deep into

[00:41:52] [SPEAKER_02]: it don't realize that's all chat

[00:41:53] [SPEAKER_02]: gpd does is predict the next you

[00:41:55] [SPEAKER_02]: know the next most likely word

[00:41:57] [SPEAKER_02]: to to emerge from a string of words

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_02]: it just doesn't matter massive scale

[00:42:02] [SPEAKER_02]: that it seems like it's intelligent

[00:42:05] [SPEAKER_02]: so I take higher view but definitely

[00:42:08] [SPEAKER_02]: if somebody's not leveraging AI

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_02]: they're not it's like trying to build

[00:42:12] [SPEAKER_02]: a house and and say I'm going to go

[00:42:13] [SPEAKER_02]: ahead and pass on the hammer you

[00:42:15] [SPEAKER_02]: know I don't need that tool right

[00:42:17] [SPEAKER_02]: that's kind of the level rat that

[00:42:19] [SPEAKER_02]: you need to leverage it but it's

[00:42:21] [SPEAKER_02]: not a pain to say it's not the

[00:42:23] [SPEAKER_02]: involved in all so so boy do you

[00:42:24] [SPEAKER_00]: know I want to ask you before we

[00:42:26] [SPEAKER_00]: wrap up here you know what kind

[00:42:28] [SPEAKER_00]: of suggestions you might have for

[00:42:29] [SPEAKER_00]: HR leaders is the as the world of

[00:42:32] [SPEAKER_00]: transparency is upon us right and

[00:42:34] [SPEAKER_00]: legislatively and by generation

[00:42:36] [SPEAKER_00]: and and I have to say you know I

[00:42:38] [SPEAKER_00]: took I have a few notes and I'm sure

[00:42:40] [SPEAKER_00]: you have far more wiser words than

[00:42:42] [SPEAKER_00]: this but I was like well see a doctor

[00:42:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean use a specialist ask about

[00:42:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Legos and don't ask the bot for

[00:42:50] [SPEAKER_00]: your seller range besides those

[00:42:56] [SPEAKER_02]: first of all I think for the HR

[00:42:58] [SPEAKER_02]: leaders out there you know take

[00:43:00] [SPEAKER_02]: take compensation is shipped to

[00:43:02] [SPEAKER_02]: transparency get ahead of it you

[00:43:04] [SPEAKER_02]: know don't try to you know if

[00:43:06] [SPEAKER_02]: you're thinking about it from a

[00:43:07] [SPEAKER_02]: compliance perspective you're

[00:43:08] [SPEAKER_02]: already a half step behind you

[00:43:10] [SPEAKER_02]: should think about this as an

[00:43:12] [SPEAKER_02]: employee engagement right to me

[00:43:13] [SPEAKER_02]: the link is clear trust in your

[00:43:16] [SPEAKER_02]: in your compensation leads to

[00:43:17] [SPEAKER_02]: higher engagement higher engagement

[00:43:19] [SPEAKER_02]: leads to higher productivity higher

[00:43:20] [SPEAKER_02]: productivity leads to business

[00:43:21] [SPEAKER_02]: results like I said I come at

[00:43:24] [SPEAKER_02]: this comp world and the whole HR

[00:43:25] [SPEAKER_02]: world from being an executive

[00:43:28] [SPEAKER_02]: organization and that's the way

[00:43:30] [SPEAKER_02]: business leaders think I got a

[00:43:32] [SPEAKER_02]: drive a bottom line result so

[00:43:35] [SPEAKER_02]: number one get ahead of it don't

[00:43:37] [SPEAKER_02]: try to don't try to get dragged

[00:43:39] [SPEAKER_02]: along or you're going to be the

[00:43:40] [SPEAKER_02]: disadvantage number two make sure

[00:43:43] [SPEAKER_02]: you have the right access to

[00:43:45] [SPEAKER_02]: expertise and tools you know if

[00:43:48] [SPEAKER_02]: you're holding your compensation

[00:43:49] [SPEAKER_02]: salary ranges and spreadsheets

[00:43:51] [SPEAKER_02]: and looking at every two years

[00:43:52] [SPEAKER_02]: and trying to do it yourself

[00:43:53] [SPEAKER_02]: with with a part-time

[00:43:55] [SPEAKER_02]: comp person you're probably going

[00:43:57] [SPEAKER_02]: to be behind so I definitely

[00:43:59] [SPEAKER_02]: believe that for many organizations

[00:44:02] [SPEAKER_02]: if you can get to the point where

[00:44:04] [SPEAKER_02]: you can hire a really really

[00:44:06] [SPEAKER_02]: expert compensation architect

[00:44:09] [SPEAKER_02]: that somebody who can really create

[00:44:11] [SPEAKER_02]: and internalize actually use

[00:44:13] [SPEAKER_02]: salary data survey data and

[00:44:15] [SPEAKER_02]: match jobs and do all those hard

[00:44:17] [SPEAKER_02]: things right hire them and make

[00:44:19] [SPEAKER_02]: sure they're doing it great for

[00:44:20] [SPEAKER_02]: many other organizations the right

[00:44:22] [SPEAKER_02]: answer is going to be fine find

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_02]: a great consultant and then I

[00:44:26] [SPEAKER_02]: think the the third thing is to

[00:44:29] [SPEAKER_02]: from an HR leadership perspective

[00:44:30] [SPEAKER_02]: is to have a very clear comp

[00:44:33] [SPEAKER_02]: philosophy and use it

[00:44:35] [SPEAKER_02]: it'd be shocked how many people

[00:44:37] [SPEAKER_02]: have salary ranges and the first

[00:44:39] [SPEAKER_02]: thing their recruiters do when

[00:44:40] [SPEAKER_02]: they go to hire is to go to you

[00:44:42] [SPEAKER_02]: know go to the web and find

[00:44:43] [SPEAKER_02]: you know like you have to use

[00:44:45] [SPEAKER_02]: it so no do I want to pay a

[00:44:47] [SPEAKER_02]: 50% of the market do I want to

[00:44:49] [SPEAKER_02]: pay 25% of the market for these

[00:44:51] [SPEAKER_02]: jobs in the 75th these years

[00:44:52] [SPEAKER_02]: of the others like have a strategy

[00:44:55] [SPEAKER_02]: and then when you have the

[00:44:56] [SPEAKER_02]: strategy apply it apply it when

[00:44:58] [SPEAKER_02]: you communicate to your employees

[00:45:00] [SPEAKER_02]: when you hire employees you

[00:45:02] [SPEAKER_02]: know create a culture where

[00:45:03] [SPEAKER_02]: your employees know that the

[00:45:05] [SPEAKER_02]: best place to start in a new

[00:45:07] [SPEAKER_02]: grade level is at the bottom

[00:45:08] [SPEAKER_02]: quartile of the range because

[00:45:10] [SPEAKER_02]: that gives them the most

[00:45:11] [SPEAKER_02]: head room right if everybody

[00:45:14] [SPEAKER_02]: thinks they got to be at the

[00:45:14] [SPEAKER_02]: top of the range you've done

[00:45:16] [SPEAKER_02]: a bad job of explaining how it

[00:45:17] [SPEAKER_02]: works right so that's my view

[00:45:19] [SPEAKER_02]: is you know get ahead of it

[00:45:21] [SPEAKER_02]: get the right expertise and

[00:45:23] [SPEAKER_02]: then use it and in that right

[00:45:25] [SPEAKER_02]: expertise somewhere in there is

[00:45:28] [SPEAKER_02]: is a commercial for my software

[00:45:30] [SPEAKER_02]: that I will pitch but it

[00:45:32] [SPEAKER_02]: actually has the decent tools

[00:45:34] [SPEAKER_02]: right Excel is a wonderful tool

[00:45:38] [SPEAKER_02]: it's not necessarily good for

[00:45:40] [SPEAKER_02]: consistent execution of a key

[00:45:42] [SPEAKER_02]: business process like that you

[00:45:44] [SPEAKER_02]: ought to probably think about

[00:45:45] [SPEAKER_02]: having some sort of system of

[00:45:47] [SPEAKER_02]: record and there are there

[00:45:49] [SPEAKER_02]: are several out there I tend

[00:45:51] [SPEAKER_02]: to like mine but I think

[00:45:52] [SPEAKER_02]: expertise and tools are

[00:45:55] [SPEAKER_02]: that middle bucket.

[00:45:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I think it's fair you

[00:45:57] [SPEAKER_00]: know you know that you know

[00:45:58] [SPEAKER_00]: that we're pretty commercial

[00:45:59] [SPEAKER_00]: free here but I don't think

[00:46:00] [SPEAKER_00]: we've even said since the

[00:46:02] [SPEAKER_00]: very beginning opening boy

[00:46:03] [SPEAKER_00]: that your CEO and co-founder

[00:46:05] [SPEAKER_00]: of pay federate and so fair

[00:46:08] [SPEAKER_00]: fair for us to make sure that

[00:46:11] [SPEAKER_00]: when you say mine is awesome

[00:46:13] [SPEAKER_00]: it is a very cool product

[00:46:15] [SPEAKER_00]: it's definitely sparked me

[00:46:17] [SPEAKER_00]: and my consulting firms

[00:46:21] [SPEAKER_00]: interest in collaboration

[00:46:22] [SPEAKER_00]: and so there's just a lot of cool

[00:46:24] [SPEAKER_00]: stuff going on there and being

[00:46:26] [SPEAKER_00]: built around the right tools

[00:46:29] [SPEAKER_00]: is something special.

[00:46:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think I can say without

[00:46:34] [SPEAKER_02]: equivocation because they're

[00:46:35] [SPEAKER_02]: a handful of other companies

[00:46:36] [SPEAKER_02]: doing similar things to us

[00:46:38] [SPEAKER_02]: nobody's doing exactly what we

[00:46:39] [SPEAKER_02]: do but there's some good

[00:46:40] [SPEAKER_02]: solutions out there

[00:46:42] [SPEAKER_02]: to me as somebody says look

[00:46:44] [SPEAKER_02]: I need to have more people

[00:46:47] [SPEAKER_02]: in that range from a dozen

[00:46:50] [SPEAKER_02]: employees up to you know

[00:46:51] [SPEAKER_02]: thousands if more of those

[00:46:54] [SPEAKER_02]: organizations said yes I think

[00:46:55] [SPEAKER_02]: I ought to have a system of

[00:46:56] [SPEAKER_02]: record that stores these ranges

[00:46:58] [SPEAKER_02]: where I update them

[00:46:59] [SPEAKER_02]: where I evaluate them

[00:47:01] [SPEAKER_02]: relative to my employees

[00:47:02] [SPEAKER_02]: and I use them at hire

[00:47:03] [SPEAKER_02]: recruiting.

[00:47:05] [SPEAKER_02]: I can say without equivocation

[00:47:07] [SPEAKER_02]: find something ours is one

[00:47:09] [SPEAKER_02]: of one of the few versions

[00:47:11] [SPEAKER_02]: but the category is more

[00:47:12] [SPEAKER_02]: important so that you know

[00:47:14] [SPEAKER_02]: I you didn't ask me this

[00:47:16] [SPEAKER_02]: but I think you put it

[00:47:17] [SPEAKER_02]: one on the notes early like

[00:47:18] [SPEAKER_02]: why did you why did you like

[00:47:19] [SPEAKER_02]: this space?

[00:47:20] [SPEAKER_02]: You know I grew up as a poor

[00:47:23] [SPEAKER_02]: kid went to public school

[00:47:24] [SPEAKER_02]: in a state school

[00:47:26] [SPEAKER_02]: it happened to be Purdue

[00:47:26] [SPEAKER_02]: University which is one of the

[00:47:28] [SPEAKER_02]: best country schools in the

[00:47:29] [SPEAKER_02]: country.

[00:47:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Still I was an Indiana kid

[00:47:32] [SPEAKER_02]: it's just my local state

[00:47:33] [SPEAKER_02]: school.

[00:47:34] [SPEAKER_02]: You know I had an opportunity

[00:47:35] [SPEAKER_02]: to be very very lucky

[00:47:36] [SPEAKER_02]: and take advantage of the

[00:47:37] [SPEAKER_02]: American dream

[00:47:40] [SPEAKER_02]: and the thing I think

[00:47:41] [SPEAKER_02]: is our core mission is how do

[00:47:43] [SPEAKER_02]: we get everybody paid what

[00:47:45] [SPEAKER_02]: they deserve you know

[00:47:46] [SPEAKER_02]: I think of somebody who

[00:47:49] [SPEAKER_02]: maybe grew up in tougher

[00:47:50] [SPEAKER_02]: circumstances and went to

[00:47:51] [SPEAKER_02]: community college at night

[00:47:52] [SPEAKER_02]: and got their bachelor's degree

[00:47:54] [SPEAKER_02]: and all of a sudden they're

[00:47:56] [SPEAKER_02]: going out for jobs

[00:47:57] [SPEAKER_02]: you know

[00:47:58] [SPEAKER_02]: and they're not getting the

[00:48:00] [SPEAKER_02]: same kind of offers as

[00:48:01] [SPEAKER_02]: somebody who graduates from

[00:48:03] [SPEAKER_02]: a Purdue or a Duke or a

[00:48:04] [SPEAKER_02]: you know and they have the

[00:48:05] [SPEAKER_02]: same skills the same ability

[00:48:08] [SPEAKER_02]: and that pains me

[00:48:09] [SPEAKER_02]: and I think that's the

[00:48:10] [SPEAKER_02]: source of a lot of the

[00:48:12] [SPEAKER_02]: the bad results we get for

[00:48:14] [SPEAKER_02]: for both women and under

[00:48:16] [SPEAKER_02]: represented minorities is where

[00:48:18] [SPEAKER_02]: they came from.

[00:48:19] [SPEAKER_02]: So you know my passion is how

[00:48:21] [SPEAKER_02]: do we get people paid fairly

[00:48:23] [SPEAKER_02]: and you can't do that if you

[00:48:25] [SPEAKER_02]: don't have a good process

[00:48:27] [SPEAKER_02]: and the systems and tools

[00:48:28] [SPEAKER_02]: and expertise to execute it.

[00:48:30] [SPEAKER_02]: So yes it's also about

[00:48:32] [SPEAKER_02]: business results I believe

[00:48:33] [SPEAKER_02]: you'll get much better

[00:48:34] [SPEAKER_02]: business results with that

[00:48:35] [SPEAKER_02]: but what drives me every day

[00:48:37] [SPEAKER_02]: is to give that little

[00:48:40] [SPEAKER_02]: work kid growing up in

[00:48:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Dundalk, Maryland

[00:48:42] [SPEAKER_02]: you know make sure that

[00:48:44] [SPEAKER_02]: every kid has that shot

[00:48:46] [SPEAKER_02]: no matter what their path is

[00:48:48] [SPEAKER_02]: you know and that they get

[00:48:49] [SPEAKER_02]: they get paid what they deserve

[00:48:51] [SPEAKER_02]: it shouldn't all be about

[00:48:52] [SPEAKER_02]: look or who you know

[00:48:53] [SPEAKER_02]: where you came from.

[00:48:54] [SPEAKER_01]: I love it.

[00:48:55] [SPEAKER_01]: I think there's

[00:48:55] [SPEAKER_01]: you're right there's a lot of

[00:48:56] [SPEAKER_01]: folks that

[00:48:56] [SPEAKER_01]: you know we don't all

[00:48:57] [SPEAKER_01]: can negotiate the best

[00:48:58] [SPEAKER_01]: right or the same

[00:48:59] [SPEAKER_01]: so there's this

[00:49:01] [SPEAKER_01]: opportunity to make sure

[00:49:02] [SPEAKER_01]: people are protected and you

[00:49:03] [SPEAKER_01]: are you do build

[00:49:04] [SPEAKER_01]: that trust to that

[00:49:05] [SPEAKER_01]: right I think

[00:49:06] [SPEAKER_01]: you know and that this

[00:49:07] [SPEAKER_01]: could help technology for sure.

[00:49:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah so I think

[00:49:09] [SPEAKER_00]: I think we can maybe wrap

[00:49:11] [SPEAKER_00]: up a little bit for today

[00:49:12] [SPEAKER_00]: I love to

[00:49:12] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure there's much more

[00:49:14] [SPEAKER_00]: we could talk about

[00:49:14] [SPEAKER_00]: we might actually

[00:49:16] [SPEAKER_00]: form a fashion it into another

[00:49:17] [SPEAKER_00]: another one of these

[00:49:18] [SPEAKER_00]: sometime in the future

[00:49:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Boyd but

[00:49:20] [SPEAKER_00]: what is coming up for you

[00:49:23] [SPEAKER_00]: where you're going to be

[00:49:24] [SPEAKER_00]: where can folks reach you

[00:49:26] [SPEAKER_00]: and I'll make sure that

[00:49:28] [SPEAKER_00]: we get the right information

[00:49:29] [SPEAKER_00]: to Pete so he can actually

[00:49:30] [SPEAKER_00]: publish it with our show

[00:49:31] [SPEAKER_00]: description.

[00:49:33] [SPEAKER_00]: You know where to

[00:49:34] [SPEAKER_00]: where to connect with you

[00:49:34] [SPEAKER_00]: what what are you up to

[00:49:35] [SPEAKER_00]: coming up here

[00:49:36] [SPEAKER_00]: in the coming weeks

[00:49:37] [SPEAKER_00]: and months.

[00:49:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah yes so

[00:49:40] [SPEAKER_02]: we're plugging away

[00:49:42] [SPEAKER_02]: growing our

[00:49:43] [SPEAKER_02]: our business and serving our

[00:49:45] [SPEAKER_02]: customers.

[00:49:46] [SPEAKER_02]: We like more of them

[00:49:47] [SPEAKER_02]: so that's

[00:49:48] [SPEAKER_02]: that's the briefest commercial

[00:49:49] [SPEAKER_02]: I'll give

[00:49:50] [SPEAKER_02]: reach out to be boyd at

[00:49:51] [SPEAKER_02]: payfetterate.ai

[00:49:52] [SPEAKER_02]: is

[00:49:54] [SPEAKER_02]: he is the

[00:49:55] [SPEAKER_02]: is the email address.

[00:49:56] [SPEAKER_02]: I think you can put my

[00:49:57] [SPEAKER_02]: LinkedIn

[00:49:59] [SPEAKER_02]: profile on

[00:50:00] [SPEAKER_02]: on the site where this is

[00:50:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Boyd Davis one

[00:50:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I think I

[00:50:03] [SPEAKER_02]: you are number one

[00:50:04] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah you're

[00:50:05] [SPEAKER_00]: you're number one

[00:50:06] [SPEAKER_02]: there's not too many

[00:50:07] [SPEAKER_02]: but I couldn't get

[00:50:08] [SPEAKER_02]: just boyd Davis

[00:50:10] [SPEAKER_02]: and

[00:50:10] [SPEAKER_02]: and visit us at

[00:50:12] [SPEAKER_02]: payfetterate.ai

[00:50:12] [SPEAKER_02]: if you if you want to learn

[00:50:14] [SPEAKER_02]: more about our solution

[00:50:14] [SPEAKER_02]: and again

[00:50:15] [SPEAKER_02]: check out others

[00:50:16] [SPEAKER_02]: look at

[00:50:17] [SPEAKER_02]: you know modern compensation

[00:50:18] [SPEAKER_02]: management software

[00:50:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Google something like that

[00:50:20] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure you'll find

[00:50:21] [SPEAKER_02]: I

[00:50:22] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm a big believer

[00:50:23] [SPEAKER_02]: in the category

[00:50:24] [SPEAKER_02]: but I won't necessarily

[00:50:25] [SPEAKER_02]: share the specific

[00:50:26] [SPEAKER_02]: danger people

[00:50:27] [SPEAKER_02]: I think you should look

[00:50:28] [SPEAKER_02]: at look at us first

[00:50:30] [SPEAKER_02]: but yeah

[00:50:31] [SPEAKER_02]: we're

[00:50:32] [SPEAKER_02]: we're not at HR Tech

[00:50:34] [SPEAKER_02]: for those of you

[00:50:34] [SPEAKER_02]: going to that

[00:50:35] [SPEAKER_02]: we chose to not go

[00:50:36] [SPEAKER_02]: to that show

[00:50:37] [SPEAKER_02]: next year

[00:50:37] [SPEAKER_02]: I think the next time

[00:50:38] [SPEAKER_02]: audiences can stop by

[00:50:39] [SPEAKER_02]: and visit us is in

[00:50:41] [SPEAKER_02]: world at work

[00:50:42] [SPEAKER_02]: which I think is

[00:50:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Orlando, Florida

[00:50:44] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah

[00:50:45] [SPEAKER_02]: so

[00:50:46] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah

[00:50:46] [SPEAKER_02]: come see us in Orlando

[00:50:48] [SPEAKER_02]: in the spring

[00:50:49] [SPEAKER_02]: maybe we'll be some other

[00:50:51] [SPEAKER_02]: some other event

[00:50:52] [SPEAKER_02]: but in the meantime

[00:50:53] [SPEAKER_02]: we're always available

[00:50:54] [SPEAKER_02]: 24 by 7

[00:50:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Hey by the way

[00:50:56] [SPEAKER_00]: if you have that link

[00:50:57] [SPEAKER_00]: to the article

[00:50:57] [SPEAKER_00]: that you mentioned

[00:50:58] [SPEAKER_00]: it's not what you called

[00:51:00] [SPEAKER_00]: it but I kind of

[00:51:00] [SPEAKER_00]: in my mind

[00:51:01] [SPEAKER_00]: it was AI for dummies

[00:51:02] [SPEAKER_00]: right something

[00:51:03] [SPEAKER_00]: that you wrote

[00:51:03] [SPEAKER_00]: AI for HR

[00:51:04] [SPEAKER_00]: wasn't for dummies

[00:51:06] [SPEAKER_00]: strange

[00:51:06] [SPEAKER_00]: a jar

[00:51:06] [SPEAKER_00]: if it's still

[00:51:08] [SPEAKER_02]: I wrote it for

[00:51:09] [SPEAKER_02]: I believe I wrote it

[00:51:11] [SPEAKER_02]: for world at work

[00:51:11] [SPEAKER_02]: okay

[00:51:11] [SPEAKER_02]: so it is behind

[00:51:13] [SPEAKER_02]: a paywall

[00:51:14] [SPEAKER_02]: at world at work

[00:51:15] [SPEAKER_02]: happy to share

[00:51:16] [SPEAKER_02]: that link

[00:51:17] [SPEAKER_02]: great for those people

[00:51:18] [SPEAKER_02]: but if

[00:51:19] [SPEAKER_02]: if somebody also

[00:51:20] [SPEAKER_02]: wants it

[00:51:22] [SPEAKER_02]: they can

[00:51:22] [SPEAKER_02]: just drop an email

[00:51:23] [SPEAKER_02]: and

[00:51:24] [SPEAKER_02]: you know

[00:51:25] [SPEAKER_02]: I own the rights

[00:51:25] [SPEAKER_02]: to it too

[00:51:26] [SPEAKER_02]: so I can share

[00:51:26] [SPEAKER_02]: with whoever I want

[00:51:27] [SPEAKER_02]: cool

[00:51:27] [SPEAKER_02]: but I'll

[00:51:28] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah

[00:51:29] [SPEAKER_02]: definitely

[00:51:29] [SPEAKER_02]: we want

[00:51:30] [SPEAKER_02]: I can

[00:51:30] [SPEAKER_02]: dig up that leak

[00:51:31] [SPEAKER_02]: and we'll put it

[00:51:31] [SPEAKER_02]: in the show

[00:51:32] [SPEAKER_02]: that's awesome

[00:51:32] [SPEAKER_01]: that'd be great

[00:51:33] [SPEAKER_01]: if you could find

[00:51:33] [SPEAKER_01]: that shoot it over

[00:51:34] [SPEAKER_01]: I'll get it in

[00:51:35] [SPEAKER_01]: we'd love to share

[00:51:35] [SPEAKER_00]: okay

[00:51:36] [SPEAKER_00]: awesome

[00:51:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Pete

[00:51:36] [SPEAKER_00]: where are you going to be

[00:51:37] [SPEAKER_00]: coming up

[00:51:38] [SPEAKER_00]: next

[00:51:38] [SPEAKER_01]: by the time

[00:51:39] [SPEAKER_01]: this comes out

[00:51:40] [SPEAKER_01]: we'll be on the road

[00:51:41] [SPEAKER_01]: in the thick of the fall

[00:51:42] [SPEAKER_01]: tech

[00:51:42] [SPEAKER_01]: event trail

[00:51:43] [SPEAKER_01]: so

[00:51:44] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah

[00:51:44] [SPEAKER_01]: look for us

[00:51:45] [SPEAKER_01]: out there

[00:51:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I think HR

[00:51:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Tech will probably be

[00:51:46] [SPEAKER_01]: this the week

[00:51:47] [SPEAKER_01]: that we launch

[00:51:48] [SPEAKER_01]: so

[00:51:48] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah

[00:51:49] [SPEAKER_01]: see everybody

[00:51:50] [SPEAKER_01]: there

[00:51:51] [SPEAKER_01]: or at some

[00:51:51] [SPEAKER_01]: event somewhere

[00:51:52] [SPEAKER_00]: okay

[00:51:52] [SPEAKER_00]: awesome

[00:51:53] [SPEAKER_00]: well

[00:51:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I know I'll see you

[00:51:54] [SPEAKER_00]: there

[00:51:54] [SPEAKER_00]: and thank you

[00:51:55] [SPEAKER_00]: so much

[00:51:55] [SPEAKER_00]: boys

[00:51:56] [SPEAKER_00]: for joining us

[00:51:56] [SPEAKER_00]: we appreciate

[00:51:57] [SPEAKER_00]: you

[00:51:57] [SPEAKER_00]: and all of the

[00:51:58] [SPEAKER_00]: things

[00:51:59] [SPEAKER_00]: you had to share

[00:51:59] [SPEAKER_00]: with us today

[00:52:00] [SPEAKER_01]: yes

[00:52:00] [SPEAKER_02]: thank you

[00:52:01] [SPEAKER_02]: so much

[00:52:02] [SPEAKER_02]: for I'm happy

[00:52:02] [SPEAKER_02]: to do this

[00:52:03] [SPEAKER_02]: any time

[00:52:03] [SPEAKER_02]: with you guys

[00:52:03] [SPEAKER_01]: appreciate it

[00:52:04] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah

[00:52:06] [SPEAKER_01]: I know I learned a lot

[00:52:06] [SPEAKER_01]: sure

[00:52:07] [SPEAKER_01]: guest

[00:52:07] [SPEAKER_01]: did

[00:52:07] [SPEAKER_01]: and thank you

[00:52:08] [SPEAKER_01]: so much

[00:52:08] [SPEAKER_01]: really appreciate it

[00:52:09] [SPEAKER_01]: we'll talk to everybody

[00:52:10] [SPEAKER_01]: next time

[00:52:10] [SPEAKER_01]: take care