EP121 | Gen Z Isn’t Waiting - They’re Redefining Work on Their Terms

[00:00:15] Hey everybody, it's Tim Sackett back with another episode of HR Famous. And today I have a Gen Z famous HR person. It's Danielle Farage, rhymes with garage, kind of like Marriott rhymes with chariot. I loved how you put that. I was actually going to ask you pregame, like, hey, just, I want to make sure I don't F up your name, like tell me. And then I went to the LinkedIn profile and you were smart enough to actually say, oh, it's Danielle Farage.

[00:00:42] You know, they say to have a identifier, right? Or the anchor, right? And I think it's a pretty good one. I think it's memorable. It is. Well, that's everybody that's like, you know, I have like close friends at work at Marriott and everyone says Marriott. And then they go, no, it's Marriott, like chariot. And then after you get told that you're like, oh, I'll never say it different again.

[00:01:06] So this is the first I'm hearing of it. And I say it a lot of Marriott's first time saying it like that, I guess. That's very good. Danielle, tell people that don't know you why you're famous, why you're HR famous. Okay. So I'm originally from New York City and I very- Still in New York City now? Yes, I'm still in New York City. I'm on the Upper West Side. So if anyone comes to New York and is in the area, let me know.

[00:01:36] But essentially, I went to USC for college and I studied psychology because I was fascinated with this ideal and what I was really seeing, which is that a lot of my peers were graduating and going into jobs that they absolutely hated.

[00:01:54] And I wanted to understand why that was. And I figure that it was probably something to do with the organizations making decisions that didn't necessarily benefit them down at the bottom. Right. And again, this is when like organizational structures were a lot less flat than they are now. And so I wanted to study psychology so that I could walk into any room and talk to anyone about what matters to them and help bring those insights back to the boardroom and help them make better decisions at scale.

[00:02:24] And essentially, I graduated into the pandemic. So from my couch and I then went into working full time and I found myself in a toxic work environment. And unfortunately, that was the case. And unfortunately, I found out that it's not just corporate organizations that have this problem.

[00:02:48] It's really any organization. And so I ended up working, you know, I quit my job three weeks later, end up at Wade and Wendy, which is an incredible HR company and got acquired. But during my time there, I was managing a really great community called the recruitment automation community. Some of your audience members actually might know it and participate.

[00:03:11] Yeah, it was pretty big. So we were throwing these, you know, conferences quarterly talking about the future of AI and hiring kind of before it was cool. Yeah, it was because Wade and Wendy was like the current like they were like the first generation kind of machine learning kind of chatbot that was out there. Yeah.

[00:03:28] Very, very, very cool stuff. So I ended up, you know, leading this community of like 5000 HR town opposition and DEI professionals while also upskilling myself and learning like I did a DEI course.

[00:03:43] I did, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, really being in these rooms with incredibly senior HR professionals of some really, really big companies. And I always found myself asking, why am I the youngest in the room? And if we're reimagining work, shouldn't we be doing it with everyone at the table?

[00:04:12] It turns out we don't we don't care about what young people think. Apparently not. But people love to talk about us and love to talk like they do. Right. It's like, yeah, it's all about the future workforce and like bring them in. But like the actions are lacking. And so anyway, I started to share my insights online on LinkedIn at the time. Posting on LinkedIn was kind of weird. And I and I think I became a LinkedIn influencer before it was cool.

[00:04:42] And I'm very proud of that. And, you know, a few years later, you know, I've spoken at some major organizations like Microsoft and LinkedIn. And and I know those two are owned. You know, they're they're the same company, but essentially like a bunch of others. Northwestern different P&Ls. Don't worry about it. They're paying you. Who cares? Exactly. So and I've been featured in a bunch of, you know, whatever.

[00:05:06] But at the same time, it's like I'm really helping to spread, you know, this this message of I do believe in a world where everyone feels valued and supported and fulfilled at work. And I bring people together to really talk about how we get there. I enlighten HR and TA teams about how to recruit, retain and engage Gen Z talent. But then I'm also educating young professional Gen Zers because I am, like you said earlier, I'm a geriatric Gen Z.

[00:05:36] So I am at the at the at the top of the at the top of the chain. And, you know, what's interesting about that is I get to enlighten, you know, other generations about my own before my own generation might be ready to speak for themselves. Which, you know, I am speaking for myself. It's the one thing that drove me crazy. Gen Z. I've been speaking, you know, for 20 years right in this industry. And like I would show up at a conference and it started with the millennials where someone would be like, oh, we're going to tell you about these millennials.

[00:06:04] And I would show up and it would be like some 68 year old HR lady talking about a generation that she wasn't a part of. And I'm like, I don't I don't think it happens all the time. Like, I can't tell you how many webcasts and conference things we see, like come here about Gen Z. And it's nobody on the panel. Nobody is speaking as Gen Z. And you're like, this is the most ridiculous thing ever. Well, funny story is, I guess, did we meet at HR tech or do we meet at Transform? HR tech.

[00:06:31] And that's why I was drawn to you because I'm like, because again, knowing your age and your generation, you were just like, I'm going to come up and introduce myself and talk to you. And I'm like, holy crap, like she's impressive. And again, like you said, like a lot, usually younger generations in a professional setting are just kind of like, just going to take a step back, see all the old people do their thing, not get involved. You know? Yeah. But I mean, I really do stand by what I say and that I believe everyone should be a part of the conversation.

[00:07:01] And if you're not inserting yourself and you're not in those rooms, then you're actively bowing out. Right. And you're because I thought to get to a lot of these conferences, like Transform, for example, last year was my first big conference, which I'm excited to be returning this year. Yeah. The funny story is that they invited me as a partner. Right. So they gave me kind of a free ticket. I ended up paying my way there.

[00:07:26] I shared a room with my friend Sally, who's in this organizational space. She's an inspirational speaker. Yeah. And we had a blast. And I met so many incredible people. It ended with me being, you know, later on in May, joining the HR Morning Show. And now I'm on there, you know, every Tuesday at 10 a.m. Eastern. Yeah. LinkedIn Live Show, right? Yes. On the Purple Acorn Network with Adam Posner and Joel Algey. So we have a really fun time.

[00:07:56] We got to get you on the show. But essentially, I was at Transform and I had what I call my Queen Esther moment. And what happened, and for anyone who doesn't know who Queen Esther is, she's an incredible heroine in the Jewish, you know, kind of literature. There's actually Purim is a few weeks away. It's just two weeks away. So she's very relevant. But anyway, she spoke up and saved the lives of all the Jews in this town called Chushan.

[00:08:25] Okay. I say it all to say I'm at this Transform panel. It's all about Gen Z in the workplace. And of course, I'm there. Of course, it's 300% filled the room, right? Like over capacity. People are sitting on the floor, lining the floor. Like it's insane. And guess what? No one on the panel was Gen Z.

[00:08:48] And for something like Transform, I'm like, Transform is probably the most progressive slash, you know, like they're down with the times type of conferences you're going to go to. Yeah. And one of the things I like about it too is like, I mean, it's people that are doing the work on stage for the most part, right? I mean, there might be influencers and analysts and stuff like that, but it's overwhelmingly more practitioners than any other conference. A hundred percent. Yeah.

[00:09:16] And that's why it was hard for me to get a spot, I think, on a stage because they really do value that pedigree of like you're working for a big company. I work for myself right now. And so anyway, I'm at this panel and it's driving me freaking nuts. I'm like, what do I do? Like, should I say something? Like, should I ask a question? Always ask a question, right? That is what I always do. And so I go to the back of the room because it's a panel. I'm not sure if there's a Q&A.

[00:09:44] And so I make sure I go and I say, are you guys going to do a Q&A? And they say, oh, maybe, not really sure or whatever, but I'll let you know. Fast forward, they don't have a Q&A because what's her name? Claude Silver from VaynerMedia. She had to leave for another panel. So I was like, okay, that sucks. But they were doing exercise after. So during the exercise, there was a round table. Probably a third of the room stayed. And we were talking about the things that we learned.

[00:10:13] I take the microphone and I, you know, in the Q&A kind of part-ish. And I say, you know, it's really great that we're having this discussion. And it would be even better if there was a Gen Z-er on the stage because we're talking about including us in the conversation. Like that was literally something that Claude had said. Yeah. I'm like, no, no one on the stage is under the age of 35. So I don't really see that happening. So I say that all to say I got invited back this year as a speaker.

[00:10:43] Nice. Are you leading a panel then on Gen Z? I don't know about leading, but I'm going to be featured. Yeah. I was supposed to have a workshop. Okay. Cool. Well, next year, maybe. You know, incremental change. Yeah. Oh, little by little. You have to get there enough times, right? Yep. Sweet. Okay. We're going to, I'm going to ask you some questions. We're you, I reached out to you because there was some Gen Z stuff that happened and I'm like,

[00:11:12] you said, I got an opinion and I'm like, cool. We need to talk about it. Yeah. I'm going to start off here. I'm still playing around with this. I'm trying to figure out the exact right question that I want to ask every guest. Cause I really would like to have it be the same question. And so I'm going to start with this one and then we'll see. So what are the words you would want on your tombstone? Hmm. Years and years, decades from now. But like, let's say you could choose that. What would you choose? I think I would choose.

[00:11:42] I think I would choose. Live, love, laugh. No, I think it would be something like happy at work, happy at, in life. Yeah. Something like that. Yeah. Mine is going to be time to fill is not a TA success metric. Like, stop it. Like, I don't, I'm so like, I just, I get so frustrated with it. And again, I get why people do it, but like, I'm just like, can we just do, be better? Like, can we just please be better?

[00:12:10] Isn't it better match like time they stayed? I know. Right. The other one that I'm considering on the questions for openers is what conspiracy theories are you really into? Like not, not many that I can think of, to be honest. Yeah. Conspiracy theory seems like an old person thing. Like my wife and I look at each other sometimes and we're like, oh God, stop. We can't be, we can't get to that age where we start believing the conspiracy theories. Yeah. I mean, well, yeah, I guess the one, the one that I could think of now that you say that

[00:12:39] is my family is very clean in terms of what we eat and everything. Oh yeah. So I guess there's one conspiracy theory that like Bill Gates is behind a lot of like the crops being sprayed with a certain substance. And so it's really hard to get around like, and, and get like actually organic foods. Yeah. Yeah. And like Bill Gates is also, you know.

[00:13:05] Or just the definition, all the, all the regulation and definition of what is organic when it's not really organic, like all that kind of stuff is insane. But also like the, having your hand in like the pharmaceutical industry and then like keeping people sick, like, you know, puts more money in your pocket. And like the fact that we're just on a downward trend, like the whole Maha thing, I'm, I'm actually very much a fan of, um, not everything.

[00:13:30] And, but like, I think people really like, it's kind of scary how much had like the reactions, especially that I'm seeing in my generation when it comes to like, you know, oh, we're going to look into and research SSRIs and the impact of tapering off of them. And it's like, people are like, you're not going to take my SSRIs away from me. And it's like, whoa, like A, no one said that they would. And B, like, it's not part of your identity.

[00:13:57] Like, I remember thinking that pharmaceutical, like the pharmaceutical drugs are like who we are. It's like really scary. Yeah, it is. It's kind of insane. So, all right, we'll get off the conspiracy theory thing. I just think I'm trying to figure out like a question that really gets me into like what people think about. Yeah, no, that's, that's a good question. I, it's like, maybe it's something like, um, what are you, I think that's not so appropriate. I was gonna say, what do you think about in the shower?

[00:14:26] Cause that's when people like have like time. Oh, what do you think about in the shower? That's a good one though. It's kind of funny. Yeah. I always, you could ask it. You know, cause we do content, like you do content too. Like when ideas come to us, it's not like when we're just sitting down ready to do content. Like they come to us all times of the day. And the ones I, the ones I hate are like when I'm falling asleep. And then people was like, oh, just put a pad of paper next to your bed or your phone or whatever. I never do that.

[00:14:56] And I always forget. And I'm like, ah, crap. Like I don't. Yeah. No, I have like a shortcut for my notes app on my phone. Um, but I don't use it. Yeah. Yeah. I send myself constant emails like that. That's my thing is like, I'll just, if I have ideas, but then, and then I can, then I can just kind of go and search through this. Like I just do the same subject line. Right. So it's like, I can just search for those and go, okay, here's something, you know, that I want to talk about.

[00:15:20] A fun question that I like is what's your best recent purchase under like $50? That's hard under 50. Have you ever been to a webinar where the topic was great, but there wasn't enough time to ask questions or have a dialogue to learn more? Well, welcome to HR and payroll 2.0, the podcast where those post webinar questions become episodes. We feature HR practitioners, leaders, and founders of HR, payroll, and workplace innovation and transformation, sharing their insights and lessons learned from the trenches.

[00:15:49] We dig in to share the knowledge and tips that can help modern HR and payroll leaders navigate the challenges and opportunities ahead. So join us. Maybe we'd have to do it like 200. Like, by the way, this brings us up to like what I want to talk about. Cause I mean like 50, what can you buy under 50? It's like a bucket of popcorn. I don't even know. Wow. You're proving my point for me. Exactly. I know. So here's what we really want to talk about. Inc magazine had this like a survey and it was, it's a healthy number.

[00:16:17] I mean, it's statistically relevant, but it was asking every generation, how much money do you have to make to be considered successful? And I'll run them down from boomers to Gen Z. Boomers said 99,874. It makes sense. They're retired. You don't need a lot of money once that happens, right? Gen Xers, myself, $212,321. Not too bad. Millennials, 180,797.

[00:16:48] So before I tell you like the Gen Z number, the interesting part is when you take a look at the Gen Xers at 212, the millennials at 180,000, less than 5% of the U.S. makes that amount of money. So if you made that, you're making more than 95% of the entire country, right?

[00:17:11] So Gen Z, 587,797, which is more than the 1%. Like you're now you're going to like 0.9, 0.8% to be considered successful. Danielle, what the hell is wrong with Gen Z? Oh, wow. Love how you phrased that one. You really set me up there too. So much is wrong with us. No, I'm kidding.

[00:17:41] Let's just first look at those other numbers, right? It's like, what are boomers thinking? Like 99,000 to be considered successful. Yeah. The reality though is they grew up in a generation where if you made 100,000, you were wealthy, right? Right. And now they're retired, so they don't need money. So I think in their mind, they're just like 100 grand. Oh my gosh, you're amazing. Yeah. Because they're already retired. That makes sense. So then, yeah.

[00:18:10] So boomers, it's just kind of out of the question. But then Gen X is like more, you know, probably Gen X and Gen Z have the most reasonable numbers, if I were to say anything about that. Because it's like Gen Xers are, you know, their kids are in college or they're finishing college. Yeah. You know, they're looking at huge bills. They're also probably housing a Gen Z or two.

[00:18:40] Yeah. Because at the end of the day, it's like, you know, average number of kids. But then also many Gen Zers live at home still. Yeah. I live in my parents' apartment in the city that I'm very grateful to have, but they don't live in New York. They're just divorced and they kind of live in separate states. So it's like, yeah, like technically I still live at home. Quick question. This is just the Gen X dad in me now. Yeah. What bills do your parents still pay for? Oh, phone. Cell phone. Yeah.

[00:19:09] What else? You're off insurance, so they can't pay for that. I'm off insurance. What other bills are there? Streaming services. Yeah. Streaming services. You freeload on those. For sure. For sure. Until hopefully I'm 40. Yeah. And then, you know, millennials, it kind of is puzzling to me because they're at a certain point in time where they're kind of, they're disillusioned, right?

[00:19:36] By this idea that you work your way up and then you, you know, you, uh, you make a lot of money and, and you're respected in the workplace and all that. And maybe you have less work to do. Like, no, like that's not real. And so I'm either seeing like millennials opt out entirely and like the overeducated ones are like starting like, you know, co-living and co-working businesses in the middle of Green Point. Um, or, you know, they're, they're continuing to grind and many are unhappy, but some are,

[00:20:05] you know, advancing and, and kind of becoming managers and whatnot. My take on the millennial, my take on the millennial one too, is they've actually worked enough now where they've given up hope, right? They've given up hope that somehow they're magically going to find this career job that they love, that they're going to make, you know, a half a million dollars a year. The grind is real to them now. And they're just, they're now they're on the treadmill. They're just like, yeah, I guess I'm here for life, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And, and at the same time, it's like, I think the, you know, there's a lot of talk about

[00:20:35] how the, the wealth disparity between people who bought a home before COVID versus after. Yeah. Um, and I think like millennials tend to either fall on one side or the other of the line versus Gen Z, like completely missed out on that. Um, and then we'll get to Gen Z, which is, you know, housing is a big, a big one, a big question.

[00:20:57] I think a lot of, a lot of Gen Z, um, has dealt with, you know, growing up, let me just like paint a picture for you. Right. Yeah. We have more access to information than ever, which means we know more than ever about the state of our world and we are more polarized than ever. Right. And so those two things are like on the one hand, that's a kind of the framing of it all. Do you feel before we move on to that next point?

[00:21:26] Cause I want to dig into this point a little bit on the polarization part. Do you feel your education forced you to be a little more polarized, polarized than a few other generation? Because it seems like millennials started to get polarized. Like when I was at Gen X, like, I feel like, like, especially going through school, like everybody kind of felt the same. I mean, we were more, way more in common than different. Right. Right. Yeah. And you could always find something to coalition to come together where almost everybody would

[00:21:56] say, oh yeah, for sure. You know what? We love puppies, Tim. Cool. Awesome. We can all agree. We love puppies. Now it's like, no, I love cats. And you're like, oh God, like you can't love puppies too. Right. You know. I love puppies. No, but I think like, yeah, like one of the issues that probably is one that most of Gen Z is on board with is like LGBTQ and you know, they're like that, that should be, you know, anyone should be able to get married to anyone. Right.

[00:22:23] And so that was probably one of those key issues that like on a, we're kind of on a united front there. Yeah. Um, but as, as far as like your question, like, yeah, like I went to USC, which is not a very political school, but at the same time, like I had several instances, especially cause I was in the, you know, liberal arts side of the school, um, where I would be in like an international relations class. And the, the teacher, I remember this one time, this, the teacher asked us like, what's

[00:22:53] an example of a, of a country who, you know, is kind of an underdog that like really has so much innovation and like has grown drastically and has had a really big impact on the world. And as a Jew and as an Israeli first, you know, I, I immediately am like, Oh, Israel, like for sure. Right. Yeah. And, and I say that and I raised my hand, I say that and the professor's like, Oh, well not really like that. That's that, that, that one's a little per capita. Like, how could you say that?

[00:23:22] Like, I mean, the amount of Nobel peace prizes or innovation, like everything, like, I mean, it's like the Silicon Valley on the other side of the world, like, you know, number two. So I was like, Whoa. And that was sort of the first time. And there were some other instances in, throughout my time at USC, but like, I think the, the moderate or, or conservative Republican, like any of that was, was very much looked down upon. Yeah. And you felt that.

[00:23:52] And I think it, you know, it's, it's tough. And, and I think, um, you know, as a Jewish person after October 7th, it, for me, it's much more apparent than ever that like, there's a lot of propaganda. There's a lot of sort of toxicity. The crazy part of that. So like, like I, this is my dad joke around about Jewish. Cause I have a Jewish wife and Jewish children, obviously. Yeah. Um, but I never converted. So people always ask me, are you a Jew? And I'm like, no, I'm Jewish. And they're like, my kids have heard that joke a thousand times.

[00:24:22] They're like, Oh God, dad, stop that. Please just convert already. But like, so the crazy part for me, um, and we won't go down this political kind of roadmap, but like 80% of Jews are liberal. They voted pretty much voted Democrat. And then, you know, like to have like the, that after October 7th to see the world blow up around them is insane to me. Well also, and like a lot of Jews after October 7th did not vote liberally because we don't,

[00:24:50] we don't feel protected by the democratic party. Um, yeah. But it goes back to your, it goes back to your education experiment as well. Like we see this on campus, right? Where if you're a Jew on campus today, you don't feel safe. I mean, for the most part at a university. Yeah. Which is very few of them. Yeah. Yeah. It's really scary. Um, so anyway, I think like that's sort of the, the experience that I've, that I've seen. I, I do think that campuses are very, uh, polarizing.

[00:25:19] The news is very polarizing. Our algorithms are very polarizing. So we grew up, Gen Z grew up at a time when I think that nuance, like there's no room for nuanced conversation. And many times you're sort of with the group that you're with and you're not looking outside of that group. And I know personally as a Jewish person, like, yeah, a lot of my friends are Jewish now because I don't, I feel safer that way. And so I think like there, there's this experience for this younger generation of like kind of being in our own echo chambers.

[00:25:49] And so when you think about what success looks like and how much it costs to live and how this, the, you know, the average salary is not going up with that same pace. Um, and you know, you're looking at the global fires and there's war and there's like all this stuff and there's, you know, health insurance is, is up the wazoo. Like there are so many different factors that you're looking at to give you this indicator

[00:26:12] of like, Oh, to be successful, I need to be making $500,000 a year or 600,000, because then that's like half, right? It's like taxed in half. And then, you know, you're left with how much money to pay rent in New York city, $4,000 a month for a studio or one bedroom apartment. And then what are you left with? You know, it's like not that much. Yeah, I agree with you.

[00:26:38] I do think there's a, there's this like every generation hopes that the general, like, again, like, like my mom hoped for me to have a better life than she had and her mom and blah, blah, blah. And it keeps doing that. Right. Right. And so far in U S history, for the most part, each generation has gotten a little more wealthy. Now, again, I put that in quotes because like some people are like, Hey, I'm not wealthy at all. I'm still, we're still lower middle-class or we're not even lower middle-class. We're poor.

[00:27:03] But like, again, you go back to like when my parents got married, they had one tiny thousand square foot home. Right. And, but again, that was a neighborhood middle-class and then like my kids expect that coming right out of college, they should have what I have to start out with or even better, which is kind of upper middle-class. And you're like, that's just not reality. It's just not how, it's not how you start off in your career. So again, I'm not necessarily like, Oh, I can't believe these young people think they

[00:27:33] should make, you know, so much more. Or I, again, I think everybody should experience, I think gives you the reality check of, well, this is probably reality of what I'm going to be making, you know. An important point to, to kind of add to this whole discussion is like your generations and other generations as well, like boomers got married so much younger. Oh yeah.

[00:27:57] You're pulling two, you know, two different checks into one household and for Gen Z and, and, you know, I think millennials cause was kind of similar. Like we're not only getting married later, but fewer of us are in long-term committed partnerships. Yeah. And that, and, and there's many reasons I read. So now you don't, you don't have the combined dual income and blah, blah, blah. Yeah. I read an incredible article in the Atlantic, like maybe last year about why that is.

[00:28:26] And it's like, one of them, you know, is like, we're, we're way too focused on our careers because again, cost of living is so high that we're like, oh, we actually need to prioritize our careers because I don't want to be someone who can't support a partner. Yeah. But then also the, the paradox of choice, which is the next one, which is, you know, dating apps is, is kind of driving that one. It is weird. Cause I remember when like, I, you know, I met my wife in college and like, it's the only thing I could think of. Like I could care less about school or a job.

[00:28:55] My thing was like, how do I land a girl, you know? And again, you know, just that's, that was the, that seemed like that was everybody that was around me. Right. And then I go through, obviously have kids and I saw this transition happening from probably before like your graduating class. And I guess even like on the LGBTQ thing, it was like maybe three to 5% of people would have identified as LGBTQ, right?

[00:29:24] Today in 2025, it's upwards of 20% of high school students are identifying. And I'm thinking, are they really? Yeah. Or, or, or is it, is it the psychological effect of saying, well, I can't just be normal quote, again, quote unquote, I can't be heterosexual. I have to be something other than that. So I have a real identity. Like, I think there's something going on there where it seems weird that historically through all of time, you know, it was right around this percentage and all of a sudden

[00:29:54] it jumps 300%, right? Yeah. Well, I think it's two things. One of the things is, you know, it opened the door, the Pandora's box of like, oh, well, this is a conversation. Like, oh, maybe I don't have to do things the same way that other. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. There's like a certain, you know, air of, of coolness of like novelty to that. And then also like realistically because. Not having to hide. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And like, because of like liberal media, I think that like, that has really infiltrated the education system.

[00:30:24] Like there's no, there's no law, like there's, it's kind of like truth. Yeah. But because of that, it's like, oh, well, this is cool. Yeah. Because it's new and different. Yeah. And every, and again, every young generation did something like that. Maybe it was having a mohawk or wearing, you know, clothes that were crazy, whatever. Everyone kind of comes up with that identity that, you know, that they want to do. I get that. So I wrote a post, like, I don't know how to phrase this. I don't want, it's not offensive to you, but if I, if I would go to meet with a hundred

[00:30:53] CEOs that were Gen X baby boomer, I would say 90% of them would make this kind of claim. Younger workers are lazy and don't want to work. And I know you've heard this as well. When you work with corporations, why do we think that of this generation specifically? Hmm. Well, I could tell you that it's not new. It's not just this generation.

[00:31:18] Because probably 20 years ago when you were first starting out, you were also called lazy. Oh yeah. You didn't want to work, right? Yep. And it's interesting because I read this piece like three years ago and it sticks with me still today. It's that, you know, when you're in a society that is progressing, it's like people no longer want to do the minimum wage jobs.

[00:31:47] Like it's just a natural thing that happens. It's a progression. Yeah. Yeah. Not only that, but like, you know, we have the integration of new technology and it's like, well, Gen Zers want to do things faster than an organization can do it. And if we don't, it's like very frustrating. Like it's, I don't know what a good analogy is, but I mean, I think about when my mom asked me to, you know, sit down and teach her something on Instagram, I'm like, why is this so annoying?

[00:32:15] And like, why can't you just remember how to like post a photo? No offense to those of you out there who are listening to this and don't remember how to post a photo, but it's like, you know, really frustrating. And so imagine every aspect of your job or many aspects of your job kind of being that way. It, it, it, it can be, it can feel like you're a monkey in a cage kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, I, I talk about this a lot, you know, we have different concepts

[00:32:44] and, and definitions of certain terms. Yeah. And I think in, you know, the modern day, like, like professionalism is a great example. I grew up into the pandemic. Right. And so when I graduated professional meant wearing a really nice top and yoga pants on the bottom. Yeah. And like your kids running in the back and like life. Right.

[00:33:11] And like B and like showing up and like being a real, like a full human. Yeah. And maybe like, you know, maybe before that it wasn't professional to have your kids in the background playing, but like we are human. And I think the whole pandemic kind of helped us to humanize the experience of work and the realities of it. Yeah. At the same time, then you go back. Oh, it's like an RTO push. Okay. Well, like what's professional now, you know, and like, what time do I go to work?

[00:33:40] And, you know, I think every generation has a different definition when it comes to what professionalism is. I view professionalism part of it as being able to navigate and, and explore new tools and integrate them into your workflow in a, in a, in a timely manner. And, and unfortunately many people of older generations don't necessarily think that it's their job to do that.

[00:34:07] And I'm not going to hold it against anyone, but again, I don't want that to be held against me or anything, you know, other things similarly. Another definition really quickly is like hard work. What is hard work? I think generally as a society, we don't define hard work the, the same way between, you know, Gen Z, there was a new report that came out that said like a lot of Gen Zers think that,

[00:34:33] that their parents who are boomers or older Gen Xers, they tend to work harder than, than, than themselves. And I, I see this as like, well, how do you define hard work? Because hard work could mean putting hours in at the office and showing face and staying till 8 PM and like, you know, killing yourself to, to get something done, um, in a crazy amount of time.

[00:35:01] Um, but I actually view hard work as, well, I'm looking at how do I make this the most efficient? How do I help other people do the same thing? How do I, uh, integrate myself into the culture and like really show up and, and, and sort of add to the culture of the company. Um, and I, I, I just think that we have different definitions of these things and, and that's a big reason why, you know, these generational stereotypes continue to persist.

[00:35:31] They do continue. Cause I know I grew up in an environment where long hours equaled hard work, regardless of what actually happened at work. Right. And it drove me insane. And then it was even worse because I'm an early riser. So I could get in the office at 5 AM, but if I left at 5 PM, I was a slacker. But if I came in at nine and left at seven, I was like, Oh my God, Tim's a superstar.

[00:35:57] And you're like, yeah, I actually worked two hours less, but it was, so it was even that it was even crazy to me that it was the later hour. And it really depended on, on the person that was, that was creating that culture. Right. Which if you had a boss that was like a late staying person, like I actually went to work for a company where when the, the CHRO left and turned his light off in his office, every one of the direct reports would wait until he left the parking lot. And then it was, do, do, do, do, do.

[00:36:24] You could see the lights just shutting off and I'm leaving and they would literally wait. And I'm like, this is the dumbest thing ever. And, and so, and I, and I actually had went and talked to him about it. He had no idea that actually happened. He thought they were all just hard workers and he had no idea he was creating that culture. He was just a workaholic because like, you know, I had young kids. I wanted to coach, you know, soccer and do all this stuff. And I'm like, look, I'm going to leave at four. I got, he's like, Oh yeah, get out of here. Like, I know if you're doing the work or not. Right. Yeah. No, everybody was afraid to have that conversation with them. It was insane. Yeah.

[00:36:54] And I think that, that culture is, I mean, for, for Gen Z specifically, we are more likely to leave. We're more likely to prioritize our lives and, and, and of course get the work done, but we're going to be signing off at 5 PM unless, you know, told otherwise. My pushback still is though, is like, if you work in a company, you've made the decision

[00:37:19] to take a job in a company and you see that the company values you stay until six o'clock or seven o'clock. Figure that out. Stay until six or seven. You're more likely to get promoted. It doesn't mean you still have to come in at eight, figure out like, Oh, I'm going to come in at nine. Like just like structure the time. So the time is the same, but like the perceived value coming, even though it's not really value for your career is going to be huge for the actual work. Probably not there. All right. I'm going to get you on this question. Okay. This is a new one.

[00:37:49] And I actually like, we were talking about how we have ideas. I was literally like getting my lunch and I'm like, Oh, I need to ask her this. What drives you crazy about the older people that are running work today as a Gen Z? Oh gosh. I would say you, we were talking about getting promoted, the inconsistencies between what is said and what is actually done. Yeah. Number one thing that drives me crazy.

[00:38:13] And I hear it from the standpoint, I wrote a post on this last week, the standpoint of I was sold on this job. I thought it was one thing. Then they told me to move to another state, you know, like the transparency around even hiring and then onboarding, but then actually the experience of work. I have several friends. We just went through earning season, right? Several friends who are going through like the promotion talks and whatnot.

[00:38:39] And they're like, well, I'm going into it with my lowest expectations possible because now at this point, they've learned that they're probably not going to get the highest percentage of bonus. Right? Yeah. So they go into those talks with the lowest expectation possible and they get high expectations here, high expectations there, high expectations and exceeding expectations. Yeah. Seeding expectations across the board. And they get the bare minimum to keep them there.

[00:39:09] I think that's where we've failed as organizations. When we, when we go to somebody and we say, I kind of scale of one to five, we're like, because if I would come to you and you're working for me and let's say you're coming in, you're doing the job. We hired you to do it. We're happy with you. That's awesome. If you come and get, I do a review with you and I don't give you fours and fives, you're going to be devastated. If I give you threes, even though three is, oh, thank you for doing the job that we hired you to do. Continue to please come back and do more of that job.

[00:39:39] We look at three and go average and no one wants to be average. You know, no, no, no. Like it's a broken system. It's not average. It's like, and like, and again, any statistical model will show you that 80% of your workers should be in that two and a half to three and a half. And yet if you went to 80% of your workers and gave that, there would be a mass exodus. And so then you're telling people, oh my God, you're amazing. And you're great. When they're not, they're just, they're just doing the job. Yeah. You know, which you get, you know. It's a real problem.

[00:40:06] It's a real problem because then they're like, oh, well, if I'm exceeding expectations, then I can go to another company. Exactly. And the grass is greener and I'm going to make more money. And I'm going to, you know, they have this like huge idea in their head and then they go and do that maybe. And then they experience that, that that's not really. That was the, that was the thing that drove me crazy in my career was I did. I felt like if I wanted to move up at the speed I wanted to move up, I have to leave a company, even though I really liked the company.

[00:40:36] Like you and I talked about, we've, we've been in companies that we loved. And then through acquisition merger, like the culture changes and you're like, oh, and, and so, but then like, it took me a long time to realize like some of the, like the people that I admired the most had stayed in a company like 20, 30 years. And again, now they're the top in the C-suite, you know?

[00:40:58] And I'm like, God, but the grind of them having to work five, eight years, 10 years in the exact same position before they, I mean, most people just don't have that patience. Especially the younger you are, you don't have those patience, you know? Especially when you're seeing your peers move and jump organizations and get promoted. And like a friend of mine, very close friend of mine was promoted a year early at her banking job and then got poached by a hedge fund.

[00:41:27] And she's like, I mean, years ahead of where many other people her age are. Yeah. By being willing to move. I always think there's like, there's a, there's a part where, when you can do that. And as long as you're moving for the right title, right, right brand, when you start to move just for money and no title, all of a sudden you start like, you're, it hurts your career a little bit. Like it's weird how all that kind of works.

[00:41:49] But I do have a theory that if you are providing people with actionable feedback and you're not necessarily, you know, let's take an average worker, a two or a three. And you're, and you're providing them not only with feedback on how they can do their, their job better, but also feedback about what that means in the longterm and what that, like that their longterm career growth looks like. And you're actually asking them, you know, what, where do you, where do you, well, what are you interested in, in learning?

[00:42:19] And, and you're actually carving out a path for them to, to get there. Um, I, I really do believe in that. And that's something that, you know, I, I, I talk to organizations about is like, what does Gen Z want? If they, they want, you know, a fulfilled career, if they want more growth at a company, if, you know, they're, they're going to stay at a company longer, like what does it take to actually keep them? Um, and that's, that's one of the things. Yeah.

[00:42:45] I think if you had the right leader that would come to you and say, Hey, look, I can't guarantee you that you're going to get promoted in three years, but over the next three years, here's what I'm going to deliver to you for your, you know, for your development. So that at the end of the three years, if I can't promote you or the organization can't promote you, you're going to be so valuable that you'll be able to find that job someplace else. And I think people would stay around for that because it's so rare that you have a leader that will put that into you.

[00:43:07] And yet we don't go to our leaders and say, Hey, no matter what, just keep developing your people like crazy. And they're more likely to stay. And then ultimately, you know what? The promotional thing will work its way out. It'll be fine. You know, from that standpoint, anyways, Danielle, tell people how they can find you. They want to hire you, know more about you, all of that. Yes. So you can find me on LinkedIn at Danielle Farage, like garage with an F, or you can go to my website, daniellefarage.com.

[00:43:37] And you can read more about my work, my speaking, my consulting, my career creator, professional life. And yeah, it's so nice to be here. So thanks for having me. And if you want to see her live, the HR morning show Tuesdays. At 10 a.m. Eastern and we're actually going to be dropping a new show, actually today, which is kind of crazy, called From X to Z.

[00:44:03] So we're going to be unpacking a lot of the ideas that we talked about today. Sweet. Funny enough, yeah, on between me and Mervin Dinan, who is a boomer slash- I love Mervin. Yeah. The nicest dude in the world. Yeah. Yeah, he's great. So yeah, thanks for having me. Awesome. Thank you. Everybody, that's another episode. We'll work to be better next time. It's HR famous. I am out.