[00:00:00] Hi everyone, welcome back to another episode of HR Famous, I'm Madeline Lerano and
[00:00:12] I'm joined by my two friends Tim Sackett and Jessica Lee.
[00:00:16] And we are right in the weird middle of winter where we have warm weather here in Boston
[00:00:23] but hi Tim, my Jessica.
[00:00:26] Hey.
[00:00:27] Hi.
[00:00:28] Hi.
[00:00:29] Hi, I'm Madison Madeline.
[00:00:30] You guys have a new, like a new monument or memorial.
[00:00:33] I want to come see it, like the embrace.
[00:00:35] I kind of come up.
[00:00:37] I just went last weekend actually.
[00:00:40] We did.
[00:00:41] Beautiful and at night it's just like, you know, just absolutely beautiful but it's Martin Luther King
[00:00:47] and his wife hugging and embracing each other and it's very, Boston Commons is beautiful.
[00:00:52] Yeah.
[00:00:53] But my kids really understand what it was.
[00:00:55] Like they were like, wait, where are the he is?
[00:00:56] We had to kind of walk around whole things to see.
[00:00:58] Yeah.
[00:00:59] What is this art?
[00:01:01] What is this?
[00:01:02] What is this?
[00:01:03] This is too much.
[00:01:04] It's like the thing in New York City, too.
[00:01:06] New York, because you were in New York City this week, Jay, did you guys go see the
[00:01:09] bean, the new bean?
[00:01:11] No.
[00:01:12] You know, sometimes it's a cloud or whatever.
[00:01:14] No.
[00:01:15] In a hotel restaurant.
[00:01:16] In a hotel.
[00:01:17] In a restaurant.
[00:01:18] It was really nice hotel.
[00:01:19] It was really nice.
[00:01:20] That's true.
[00:01:21] A very nice hotel.
[00:01:22] Not slummin' it.
[00:01:24] So last time we all talked where we were recording, we talked about like favorite TV
[00:01:31] shows in Jessica.
[00:01:32] You said your favorite for the year was Ted Lasso and we just heard that the third season
[00:01:37] is launching March 15th, which is very exciting.
[00:01:41] So I thought we could kick off by just going around and giving our predictions for something
[00:01:47] that might happen this season.
[00:01:50] Okay, first prediction, Ted Lasso is going to shave off that mustache.
[00:01:54] He's just going to have a new look.
[00:01:57] Can you imagine?
[00:01:58] No, no.
[00:01:59] But wouldn't that be crazy?
[00:02:01] Also his mustache is gone.
[00:02:03] No one.
[00:02:04] No one.
[00:02:05] No.
[00:02:06] No.
[00:02:07] Did we leave it like with Rebecca and Sam kind of having, did they break it off or she
[00:02:12] told him that he was too young or whatever?
[00:02:14] Kind of a weird owner player thing, right?
[00:02:16] Yeah, I think there was something.
[00:02:18] And then I think the big one was Nate going to the dark side.
[00:02:23] Yes.
[00:02:24] Hi, Nott.
[00:02:25] By the way, so probably this season when we see Roy and Keeley get married, you know,
[00:02:32] it's like, do they go that cheesy?
[00:02:34] I think that's my prediction.
[00:02:36] I think Roy got up and I think she gets back together with Jamie Tarte.
[00:02:41] No.
[00:02:42] She was too much drama for sure.
[00:02:45] And then Ted Lasso is like sitting there with a bowl of ice cream, like your favorite ice
[00:02:52] cream.
[00:02:53] There's nothing like, I mean, again, there is some serious stuff in there as well, but
[00:02:57] it seems like it's always like makes you feel good by the end.
[00:03:00] Like it's so crazy to me.
[00:03:02] They pull it together somehow.
[00:03:03] Oh, something that has to find a love interest, right?
[00:03:06] Oh, what does it mean?
[00:03:07] It's going to be Ted.
[00:03:08] Everyone wants it to be Ted, but it can't be.
[00:03:12] Like that's just too weird.
[00:03:13] Yeah, but you never know.
[00:03:15] Maybe they pull it together with the bowl of ice cream and oh, I can't wait.
[00:03:24] Love Ted Lasso.
[00:03:25] Successions coming back shortly too.
[00:03:27] Oh, that's so bad.
[00:03:30] The writer's on that to me.
[00:03:32] Amazing.
[00:03:33] I mean, it's both really both.
[00:03:34] I'm going to have to go back now and like watch at least the last couple episodes of
[00:03:37] Ted Lasso.
[00:03:38] Like doing you have to do that every time in New season.
[00:03:41] Even when they give you that three minute montage of like, here's what happened last
[00:03:45] season.
[00:03:46] It goes it's not enough.
[00:03:48] I need more detail.
[00:03:49] It's not a lot.
[00:03:50] I know.
[00:03:51] I know.
[00:03:52] I agree.
[00:03:53] So Tim, we did a roundtable this week on recruiter experience.
[00:03:57] We had almost 100 people that showed up for this.
[00:03:59] Yeah.
[00:04:00] Yeah, with job sync.
[00:04:02] And it's such an interesting topic because I mean, you've been talking about this forever
[00:04:06] but last year, it's like a topic that everybody else started talking about for the
[00:04:10] first time.
[00:04:11] It's the first time we ever did any research on recruiter experience.
[00:04:14] And now we're looking at things changing.
[00:04:17] We know all these recruiters at least in tech and other financial services that left their
[00:04:23] jobs for these crazy salaries at Google and Amazon and now a lot of them are laid off.
[00:04:30] So where are we at with recruiter experience?
[00:04:32] And does it even matter now that we're a crime of life in this week?
[00:04:38] When you ask that question on the roundtable, I actually just can't say no.
[00:04:41] It doesn't matter.
[00:04:43] And Jessica and the pre show is like what the hell's recruiter experience?
[00:04:46] We're going to find it because I'm still like what?
[00:04:49] I don't understand so define it.
[00:04:51] Yeah.
[00:04:52] So for those who are kind of like what the hell is this?
[00:04:54] I've never heard of it.
[00:04:55] You probably wouldn't if you're not a recruiter.
[00:04:57] So when we think about post pandemic, we had this weird thing happen where all of the recruiters
[00:05:03] like during like when the pandemic hit recruiting talent was, the steam's got gutted right
[00:05:07] it was like two companies were just like, oh my gosh, we might never hire again.
[00:05:11] Like there's a panic right?
[00:05:13] And so they tried to cut like TA teams because they were like look where you know everyone
[00:05:18] got sent home.
[00:05:19] We're not working you know or whatever.
[00:05:22] And then immediately job shot up and it seemed like there was this never ending bucket
[00:05:26] of hiring.
[00:05:27] And so companies were begging for recruiters at one point as Madeline pointed out in the
[00:05:32] research as well as like I think it was like early spring of last year.
[00:05:36] There was more recruiter openings and software engineering openings.
[00:05:39] I'm like didn't that became like the big thing?
[00:05:42] And then people started talking about this thing like recruiter experience which is when
[00:05:47] you're working like there was so much pressure on recruiters to perform and actually deliver
[00:05:51] becomes companies were just desperate for hiring at really every kind of position
[00:05:56] that was out there.
[00:05:58] And so we started really looking at well what what is this job of recruiter like at one
[00:06:02] point if the job if you're going to hiring freeze you get fired.
[00:06:07] And then literally 90 days later you're the most important person in the company and they're
[00:06:11] doing anything like attract more of you or keep you or do whatever.
[00:06:15] It's like it was a really weird dynamic I think people were feeling bad for recruiters
[00:06:20] because they have this weird dynamic of like in really it's a supply chain issue kind
[00:06:24] of issue right?
[00:06:25] It's like what do you do is recruiters when they don't have to hire and then what do
[00:06:29] you do for them when you're over their over capacity and you're trying to make them
[00:06:33] hire and work 24 seven.
[00:06:35] And so it was really that it was similar to like what you would think about an employee
[00:06:40] experience if you were taking a look at in a no just because this is kind of near and
[00:06:43] dear to your heart taking a look at employee experience of all of your employees from
[00:06:48] the lowest paid to the highest paid.
[00:06:50] And you know what you find is that there's some buckets of your employees at the job just
[00:06:54] kind of sucks.
[00:06:55] You know like it doesn't seem to equate.
[00:06:59] And so you go okay well how can we help make that better?
[00:07:02] And I think that's what the foundation of employee experience was.
[00:07:05] Do we have do you have the right tech and tools to do your job or are you getting paid appropriately
[00:07:10] you know are as somebody asked if you're they're asking you to work 60 70 hours a week.
[00:07:15] You know how are they helping you with other time off or other perks or something like
[00:07:20] that right?
[00:07:21] So it's delivering them a great experience where they wouldn't want to turn over and
[00:07:27] you know from that standpoint.
[00:07:28] So then we go down like now all of a sudden these tech companies are laying off again.
[00:07:32] They're not hiring as much and so now these a lot of recruiters are getting laid off
[00:07:36] and we're like this is part of this really kind of crappy experience about being a recruiter
[00:07:42] in a metal like chime in if you that is anything different from that I think that's probably
[00:07:46] the the the foundation.
[00:07:48] Yeah I think so and I think it's this idea that people don't know what recruiters do.
[00:07:53] Like Tim I think this is your quote that everybody thinks it's the one job that everybody says
[00:07:58] oh I can do that.
[00:07:59] Yeah.
[00:08:00] Everyone in the company says oh I can do that but nobody really understands what recruiters
[00:08:04] do like we asked in like the survey that we did last year is it harder to find quality
[00:08:11] talent this year?
[00:08:13] Is it do you have more jobs to fill this year and is it harder to find quality talent
[00:08:16] this year?
[00:08:17] And then I did like a data cut by IT professionals that responded to that question recruiters
[00:08:23] and then HR leaders and for just a different screen IT and recruiters like 83% of recruiters
[00:08:29] said it's harder to find candidates this year than last year and 10% of IT said it was
[00:08:35] harder.
[00:08:36] So it's like you have just this disconnect of what the recruiter has to do and how difficult
[00:08:41] this job has been over the past few years.
[00:08:44] And I think there's like this also this idea that recruiters don't work hard that they
[00:08:49] just you know anyone could do the job.
[00:08:51] You know recruiters done at five o'clock and I mean a lot of recruiters are working
[00:08:55] out there.
[00:08:56] There's some truth to this right?
[00:08:58] That's where that's every way in every kind of situation there's truth to it like I love
[00:09:02] giving the example of a CFO could walk into my office when I was running TA for corporations
[00:09:08] and would feel very comfortable to sit down and tell me strategy around how to find people.
[00:09:15] Look hey we need to use the Twitter's Tim I saw and CNN this morning we were recruiting
[00:09:23] more on the Twitter's.
[00:09:25] If I went into the CFO's office and said hey by the way I was thinking about some financial
[00:09:29] stuff last night and I want to change how we actually report our financials they would
[00:09:33] have security walk me off the campus right?
[00:09:36] They would be like you're fired right now.
[00:09:38] Like what are you talking about I'm the CFO and so it's this concept of no worthy experts
[00:09:43] and what we do in your moron that just as an expert in what you do but you don't know
[00:09:48] what we do.
[00:09:49] And so that becomes kind of one of these kind of big issues but back to the truth part
[00:09:54] of this when I go and do a recruiting diagnostic and enterprise what I find is the vast majority
[00:10:01] of the recruiting that is done is actually just administering the recruiting process.
[00:10:06] They post job people apply, you screen those people that apply and you pass to Mando
[00:10:12] Haring manager that is not recruiting I can have admins do that.
[00:10:17] Put your paper.
[00:10:18] $1,000 literally I could teach people on how to screen a candidate it's not and so we're
[00:10:25] paying these recruiters 120 150 180 thousand I just had a recruiter reach out to me a couple
[00:10:31] weeks ago and said I'm at 180 I got laid off I need to maintain my base.
[00:10:36] They're lowered.
[00:10:37] Yeah good luck brother you know you'll never get that from somebody else.
[00:10:43] If you're paying somebody that much the last thing you want to hear is that they posted
[00:10:48] a job and somebody applied and they'd screened them because literally that's an hourly
[00:10:53] job.
[00:10:55] So we have this dynamic we have we think that they are out there hunting for people but
[00:11:00] the reality is is very fewer actually hunting and in doing real recruiting work and that's
[00:11:06] what I think that's the disconnect right.
[00:11:07] So if everybody in the company can I can train anybody in our company from literally from
[00:11:13] the lowest pay to the highest paid to post a job wait for somebody to apply and screen
[00:11:19] them.
[00:11:20] I can train anybody to do that so that when a company goes hey anybody can do recruiting
[00:11:25] they can do that and if that's 90% of your recruiting guess what they can do your
[00:11:29] recruiting and that's the hard part of this.
[00:11:33] Yeah you know I'm struck by it's like I just feel like it's pretty I don't know is it
[00:11:39] entitled is it privileged to be obsessed with recruiter experience.
[00:11:44] I mean there are a lot of jobs that are very hard and is recruiter at the top of the list.
[00:11:49] I don't know try cleaning up on Jihotel rooms or try working you know whatever kind of service
[00:11:55] you know type of role and I think if an organization is to be focused on improving
[00:12:00] the experience of a job like is it recruiter I don't know but you know to be fair then
[00:12:06] on the flip side I guess what I would just wonder is there's just baseline things that
[00:12:11] companies should be thinking about when it comes to general good employee experience and
[00:12:16] it's not like recruiter specific like should the technology works you're not having to
[00:12:21] you know hop around and switch from this to this to that.
[00:12:24] Should you have a work environment that you know is I don't know comfortable thoughtful
[00:12:29] and like whatever the things are like there are general baseline things that every company
[00:12:33] should be thinking about or they really specific to recruiters I don't know I just feel like is
[00:12:38] this the time when you use the term like naval gazing like I never know when that makes sense but
[00:12:43] this is like a naval gazing type thing. I just like all jobs are hard but like there are harder
[00:12:49] jobs and recruiter jobs. No we don't talk about yeah like that was my message to you Jihotel
[00:12:54] you Jihotel like should we talk about HR experience now finance experience sales experience
[00:12:57] accounting experience you know operations yeah like no it's just employee experience and what
[00:13:04] we find was it was just the job of the moment that seemed like the experience wasn't great right
[00:13:10] yeah but there's a lot of those jobs like I think I had we went to dinner with some friends
[00:13:16] this week and their son is a software engineer for a contractor that works for a bunch of government
[00:13:20] stuff right and he was saying like yeah he goes in at eight and works till seven five days a week
[00:13:26] as a software engineer so we keep thinking like these software engineers out of these amazing
[00:13:30] careers and then he also has to go in on Saturday and I'm just like this kid does not have a life
[00:13:37] yeah now again people like oh well if he's a nerd software engineer probably doesn't want
[00:13:41] that but no he actually wants a life he's young he's 24 he wants to date and he wants you know
[00:13:46] and they already is just you know making it and then my son Keaton is a CPA and right now is
[00:13:51] that busy season yeah he's working I mean literally 12 hour days and then works like a full eight
[00:13:57] hour in a Saturday and again they're like well you only have to do that for four months I'm like
[00:14:01] in his four months you'll work more than you work in nine months you know it's like
[00:14:06] and you think like well how the heck can these CPA companies deliver a better experience for
[00:14:11] these CPAs well one would be okay hey if you're gonna actually ask them to not have a life for
[00:14:16] four straight months you better give them ultimate flexibility in the other eight months or you're
[00:14:23] just not going to have them and but honestly there's still this you know this kind of push to be a
[00:14:28] partner and so even in the other eight months of the year he works a pretty full job like it's
[00:14:34] not it's like well I'm not working 70 hours a week anymore now I'm only working 50 and you're
[00:14:39] like oh okay that sounds better you know yeah it is it's almost to me about validation like I think
[00:14:45] you know I do think that we're some of it I think it's like buzzword like it's like people are
[00:14:51] trying to find like the next buzzword or the next topic to talk about but I do think there's
[00:14:55] like an important piece to it in validation like for the recruiters it's like they don't feel
[00:15:01] like anyone understands what they do they're working hard they're burnt out it's been frustrating
[00:15:06] to be able to just validate that experience and maybe that's true for CPAs too it's a can we
[00:15:10] just validate that not only do they have the busy season but then they're working 50 hours a week
[00:15:16] outside of that like Disney do you remember this was like the big thing with Disney this is years ago
[00:15:20] where they did that assessment and found like the most important role at Disney resorts was the
[00:15:26] street sweepers because that people that people go up to if you don't know where you're going
[00:15:31] if you don't know where the ride is you're gonna find sweepers so they I mean that like the whole
[00:15:36] thing was like this aha moment like the most important role in all of Disney parks would be the
[00:15:40] street sweepers and they did like pictures and you could see like you know the uniforms changed
[00:15:45] a little bit I don't know if the experience for street sweepers ever changed a Disney but the
[00:15:50] validation around like this being an important role probably meant something it is it's so hard
[00:15:58] right I mean Jay like you obviously in merit you could you know you could say oh our front
[00:16:03] desk or you know again like how many of the people who are cleaning rooms like constantly they're
[00:16:10] getting questions and they're constantly talking to the guests right because they're out in the hallways
[00:16:14] and they're just yeah you know but like you're like okay well again not the net the highest
[00:16:19] pain role in the world um but potentially like you said with the street sweepers mad like it could be
[00:16:25] something that is so important and like so you put extra training in but there's always that
[00:16:29] given take of like how much can't we can't go out and say okay hey we're gonna pay the street sweepers
[00:16:33] right six years you know you're like slow down they're not that I mean there are like you're like oh
[00:16:38] wait they're the most important but they're not like it's so weird that we have these dynamics
[00:16:42] like that yeah it's not much just gonna change like it's like we're not gonna completely change what
[00:16:47] we do for streets we first we're not gonna give everybody a roles Royce but it's you know
[00:16:52] it's just an awesome yeah I guess I just it makes me really wonder like every job can claim to be
[00:16:59] like a hard job or it's gonna be the job of the moment where everyone's focused on like oh there's
[00:17:06] high turnover or it's a crappy job and so there's always gonna be something so it just makes me
[00:17:11] wonder about like what is the role of a manager to just make their people feel valued period to make
[00:17:17] them feel like they're just sure that they have the tools for their job and that you know they're
[00:17:22] creating the right environment because I just feel like anyone at any moment could say oh like
[00:17:28] it's me my job as the hardest so just do better do better I think 2023 will be the year of
[00:17:36] the analyst experience that's what you're not a madeline you're so we're gonna have an episode
[00:17:46] so by the way I got pictures well I got pictures last week of Kyle and Madeline in like you know
[00:17:51] some tropical island location and I'm like oh yeah what a hard life wow wow it's funny
[00:18:03] so you know it's interesting even thinking about the recruiter experience and Tim you bring up
[00:18:08] like what recruiter should be doing and what they shouldn't be doing and like the big topic right
[00:18:13] now is around chat GPT and it's not you know specific to recruiter but even within HR like
[00:18:20] is this what do you think about this we haven't really talked about this like do you have you tried
[00:18:25] it do you think this is something that's gonna be you know impacting work or is it just like a
[00:18:32] passing trend no I it's it's gonna change the entire like eight landscape of everything we do
[00:18:40] that again like I just my opinion like when I take a look at it and play with it and um you know
[00:18:45] I mean again it's early on but I think every tech company that we talk to is trying to figure out
[00:18:50] you know how do we kind of we're going from kind of like this normal kind of AI conversational
[00:18:56] AI to like a generative AI um so I think it has has huge impact um to every experience like I
[00:19:02] so I think I look at the future of a recruiter let's just stay right there right on this recruiter
[00:19:06] experience I think there's not one thing that a recruiter does besides having a real conversation
[00:19:13] with a real candidate that can't be replaced by AI like a chat GPT AI at some point right so if
[00:19:20] you think about really high level what is that right um easily an AI can you know um a
[00:19:28] higher manager could go yeah I want to hire this person bam I'm gonna hit this button that says oh
[00:19:31] in that in an AI would actually have a conversation what position do you want to hire for oh
[00:19:35] here's the last posting you had is there changes you know um I suggest based on
[00:19:40] all the data in the world that maybe we should change the posting to this right and we should
[00:19:45] post here and here and it would actually just go do it people would apply the AI would look at
[00:19:50] people and you know through contextual kind of ways understand like who's the best and then
[00:19:55] they would reach out to these people and and even people that didn't apply they would reach out
[00:19:59] to people that would be the best fit and actually try to get them and be interested
[00:20:03] and at the end of the day like your recruiter is going to come in in the morning and they'll say
[00:20:07] hey on your calendar you have seven conversations today by the way the AI probably actually generated
[00:20:12] questions that you should talk to them about I mean literally it's just gonna be that
[00:20:16] that could I just think we're literally you know a year or so away from being able to kind of
[00:20:21] generate that kind of experience for a recruiter so like the recruiter's life and job changes drastically
[00:20:27] and like Matt and we had talked about like how many of those conversations can you have a day before
[00:20:32] you want to put a gun in your mouth right I mean like oh my gosh so much even the most extroverted
[00:20:37] person is gonna be like oh hey I was on the phone for eight straight hours I want to go hide in
[00:20:44] the clot dark closet right with a bottle of gin and I'm gonna like try to find myself so I do think
[00:20:49] there's this weird kind of dynamic of what we can expect from somebody I knew like I know when
[00:20:54] we were having the like the round table people were like oh you could do you know maybe 15 to 20
[00:21:01] screens in a week you know on average week after week after week but that becomes again
[00:21:05] it becomes really competitive repetitive you know from that right Matt on you had tweeted out
[00:21:11] a measure of that too which I thought was interesting because I want to talk about the not just for
[00:21:15] recruiting but for all jobs which was uh the email zero measure so what company I don't know if
[00:21:21] you can mention the company but like explain that what email zero one yeah so I had to call
[00:21:26] the company this week and they said that one way they're looking at they're measuring recruiter
[00:21:31] I don't know if they called the experience or productivity or you know performance but was looking
[00:21:37] at they call the inbox zero and inbox zero is essentially getting your inbox down to zero and it
[00:21:43] was show they presented it as like a positive thing for recruiters to be like well we want to help
[00:21:49] them make their job easier but it really you could see it's really for making sure they're how
[00:21:54] accountable to respond to every single candidate and every single hiring manager so it made me
[00:22:01] realize immediately that I could never be in bulk so far out of my realm um but that I just
[00:22:10] didn't ever heard anything like this yeah it's not zero good Jay what do you mean I'll never be
[00:22:17] in a box zero oh I mean probably like three four thousand is like typically my number but that's
[00:22:27] only because like you know when I get past that my outbox or my inbox just it's hard to perform
[00:22:33] in it so I just archives things but I just like everyone has a different style and I think that extra
[00:22:40] click to file those emails away I'm not saying I don't respond to things but I just don't know
[00:22:46] I would not survive with that as my metric I'm in box exactly 7486 out of right
[00:22:54] no it be part of that so I actually talked to our IT people right because I kept like same thing
[00:22:57] out there like oh you should archive should you do this blah blah I'm like so talk to me about
[00:23:02] like like what's like if I just never it deleted an email I had one million emails in my you know
[00:23:10] outlook inbox or whatever like is that like in slow my computer down as I can slow the system now
[00:23:15] as I can start you know they're like no no it won't and I'm like then when why would I ever
[00:23:21] eliminate any of that information I can go back and search and you know and look at stuff and
[00:23:26] you know we have so much stuff going on I kind of like oh you know what matter I mentioned something
[00:23:30] three years ago I can go back in it to my email or it's almost like I can even store documents
[00:23:36] because it's like everything I've sent in like reports I did 10 years ago I'm like oh I know
[00:23:40] I did email this to Tim and Jessica I'm gonna go back and look for it um but would you ever view
[00:23:45] like you I don't really manage many people um but you both do would you ever be you know have
[00:23:53] an opinion about someone you manage that had an inbox like with 27 other never you know what I judge
[00:23:59] more than anything and well just before I get to that to like make a full circle with your
[00:24:04] you know comment about chat gbt and open AI and all that I just feel like the behavior of filing
[00:24:10] emails away like you're just not gonna need that in the future like instead you're just gonna have
[00:24:15] all your emails in your inbox and you're just gonna ask you know your AI assistant like can find
[00:24:20] me that email with that attachment rather than like you going into the file and the year and
[00:24:26] trying to fetch it so I just feel like that behavior is not going to be relevant in the future but
[00:24:31] when I judge more I don't care about how many emails are in your inbox I judge you more if you're
[00:24:35] like at that red battery level where you're about to die because I think that for me yes is like a sign
[00:24:44] of lack of preparedness or just not caring and like if I need to get a hold of you soon what are we
[00:24:50] gonna do with your batteries on red I judge you more for that when I get a screenshot where the
[00:24:54] batteries in the red zone freaks me out Madeline I've sent you so many screenshots and you know
[00:25:00] that right you can go like this I can't I send it I don't want to talk about your battery strength
[00:25:07] how can you live how can you live now to have you seen the new battery packs for iPhones that are
[00:25:12] just the magnet that you just really click it on your phone and I'm gonna send you one I'm just
[00:25:16] gonna say so you cannot have because I know you're this busy mom out like you know at hockey games
[00:25:22] and you don't have all your cords and you know but it is your gas tank do you go do you ride down to
[00:25:28] e that I feel like that's in the same okay yeah so the thought of I mean I've had flat tires
[00:25:34] and I have like an issue with my transmission and like being but to make a silly mistake where
[00:25:40] you know you run out of gas and you're stuck on the side of the road to me is so stressful
[00:25:45] like that thought is so stressful okay okay you've redeemed yourself okay running out of your
[00:25:49] phone is not just how do you right now that my battery is at 60% and I feel like that's very good
[00:25:55] for me it's in the morning it should be like a 90 night yeah that's so confusing it is morning
[00:26:01] I don't understand she went on drinking last night she forgot to plug it in yeah by the way like
[00:26:12] I have the other thing I do with like I plug my phone in and I usually forever I can just turn
[00:26:18] it off completely like it was soon as I like when you guys are trying to text like in our group
[00:26:22] text chat at like 11 p.m. and like Tim's out I just turn my phone off I wake up to like 47 messages
[00:26:28] and I'm just like okay well I missed a great conversation last night um and now I just do it where
[00:26:33] I keep it plugged in but then I just kind of put it like on sleep mode so I don't so I don't
[00:26:39] I still don't like see him till the morning but I guess if my kids or my wife need to reach me
[00:26:44] an emergency that the phone will still actually work so I think Kim was like like she's like you
[00:26:49] turn your phone off when you go like in Vegas why do you do that and I'm like so I don't get
[00:26:53] woken up at night and she's like oh you need to keep that on I know it's true um well let's
[00:27:01] shift a little and talk about something more serious because this has been a crazy week especially
[00:27:07] Tim and your neck of the woods in Michigan and there was the shootings and you know we've seen
[00:27:13] some response and you know more media stories about it um how did it impact well first you know
[00:27:19] kind of your world because your son is at school there and then also just owning a business in
[00:27:24] Michigan like how how and what is the response you know for a company you know that's impacted by this
[00:27:32] yeah sorry young us on Cooper was on campus he when it happened um there one like like the
[00:27:37] universities do a really good kind of like they have a great alert system right where immediately
[00:27:41] email text messages everything just goes insane so whether you're a student or a parent like all
[00:27:46] the sudden you just immediately know there's an active shooter um but that's all you really know
[00:27:51] it's like basically and then they they sent out a message that was like um like hide run fight
[00:28:01] with definitions wow it's good saying hey if you can hide right now then you hide lock your
[00:28:07] door turn the lights off hide in or like hide if you can run because you can't hide then you run
[00:28:14] but if you're if there's a shooter there you fight and I'm just like and they didn't define that
[00:28:20] and I'm just like jeez wow you know and then there's just today there's like the the classroom
[00:28:26] that the shooter went in first like that professor is like I didn't fight enough like now he's
[00:28:31] feeling that guilt right oh no and he should have but like he talked about like again it's
[00:28:37] just a real experience like no one plans for this what the other thing was is like the Michigan
[00:28:42] State Police immediately sent out like the scanner so you can listen to the scanner and you are
[00:28:47] immediately hit with how chaotic and crazy this is because no one really all they know is there's
[00:28:54] an active shooter and there's there's kids shot and then you know and then there's uh
[00:28:58] and then so then in Michigan it's a huge campus like 50,000 students like it's giant
[00:29:04] and nine one one calls are coming in from all over campus that their shots fired here and their
[00:29:09] shots fired there and like I know campus really well I'm like there's no way that the shooter was at
[00:29:14] that party campus and then literally seconds later they're at another party campus so like everyone's
[00:29:19] mind every loud noise everything um who happened to be his dorm so he locked his you know
[00:29:25] locked his door and hit under it was a city under his desk for like two straight hours
[00:29:30] you know and you know Kim's like you know and then again they're all begging like you know
[00:29:36] all the police are like hey campus is completely shut down like and there's
[00:29:40] immediately every cop from a 50 mile radius is in campus and on campus
[00:29:45] and at the scanner like they start putting them in these tactical teams and I think at one point
[00:29:50] they probably were up to like 14 tactical teams where every time a call would come in there was one
[00:29:55] lady who was like hey RTC one I need you here and they would like got it you know we're there
[00:30:02] and then that was that was all it was but then you would hear like some of the chaos like there's
[00:30:08] like you know they're like hey we're getting ready to breach because I think they're
[00:30:12] at they're building where they found the shooter whatever you know um turns out the shooter
[00:30:17] basically shot in two buildings and then walked off campus and went walk home or was on as a way
[00:30:21] walking home which was literally miles and miles away from campus they finally found him he was
[00:30:27] probably five or six seven eight miles from campus walking and they confronted him and he shot
[00:30:33] himself right um at that point like you know the shooter of kind of threat is gone campus is still closed
[00:30:40] you know we went and got coop around like 2 a.m. you know and then brought him home you know
[00:30:46] but so you did so no like it happened pretty late at night it happened like at 8 p.m.
[00:30:49] So all of a sudden you heard it was first it starts with all the government in schools like
[00:30:53] basically every public school is closed for the next day because they don't at that point you
[00:30:58] have to make a decision and you have no idea if the shooter is going to be hiding on campus hiding
[00:31:02] in the world still out there and then they really didn't find the person until probably close to
[00:31:08] midnight so a lot of businesses then like my son Keaton's a CPA on a firm that literally
[00:31:17] their building sits in the backyard of one of the dorms you know it's how close it is to campus
[00:31:22] and so they just sent an email out and said hey the office is closed tomorrow right work from home
[00:31:26] whatever um and there's a lot of companies like that I just I'm overwhelmed by we talk about
[00:31:32] like these schools doing active shooter training I know you guys both have elementary school kids
[00:31:37] in middle school and they have to go through these scenarios of active shooter training
[00:31:42] when you see when you go through that and hear what the chaotic kind of mess of what's happening
[00:31:47] on the police scanner I'm thinking how the hell do these kind of first responders ever really plan
[00:31:53] for this because you never can plan for the amount of the kind of 911 one calls that come in like
[00:32:01] at one point like they were like there's shooting in this basketball court by this dorm blah blah blah
[00:32:07] in like one of the tactical teams was actually on the court and they're like we're right here
[00:32:12] there's nothing going on yeah you're like well why would somebody call that in but again it's
[00:32:18] keep Cooper was in a dorm right on the top floor like eight floors up blah blah and he's like
[00:32:22] there was screaming on his floor because people like I can't people panic they hear a
[00:32:27] was they hear a bang and they just lose their minds are calling for police or whatever
[00:32:32] and so you don't know like the chaotic craziness of that and I'm just it just hits me like again
[00:32:38] I know we keep hearing over and over it's it's a uniquely American problem I don't know I just
[00:32:42] don't know how you get how do you stop it here I really don't like you could say guns are illegal now
[00:32:49] what do we have like 50 mil or 500 million guns in the US you know that are out in the wild
[00:32:54] like how do you stop this I don't know it's just it's so crazy and then what about all the students that
[00:33:01] don't have family like that aren't Michigan based and and they're experiencing trauma
[00:33:07] shot were foreign exchange students from China it's crazy imagine you know like no yeah
[00:33:17] like you get a call like you're a Chinese parent like you get a call like hey your
[00:33:21] you know your kids been shot and they're like what like what I didn't that's a lasting
[00:33:25] year in school and Michigan like there it's just not something that like you said you ever
[00:33:31] think could be possible and yet we have so many stories now in this country or this happening
[00:33:35] it's crazy yeah and I don't every week every week uh feel free talking like what do you
[00:33:40] cut like when we went to South Africa you're immediately hit with every home every building is
[00:33:46] surrounded by fencing and security and all this stuff and you literally go from one secure
[00:33:52] location to the other for all the beauty that's there there's a weird kind of dynamic where
[00:33:58] people are born and raised and live there in the secured kind of state where you go from a school
[00:34:03] that is completely surrounded by walls and fencing and armed gunmen you know so security guards
[00:34:08] till you go to your home and it's the same thing and they just learn learn to live that way and I'm
[00:34:13] like is that what is that what America has to be and like it seemed like you know like he seems
[00:34:18] like why and then still though if you go to a restaurant or you go to a store then you're still
[00:34:23] out the wild right so you're still like put yourself at risk you know from that standpoint so
[00:34:29] yeah I don't I don't know like again we're lucky right um you know coupe coupe was safe and he did
[00:34:35] good and I think you know obviously the vast majority of students you know were fine but
[00:34:40] it's it's one of those things where you just don't think your kids gonna go to college and have to see
[00:34:46] when did to go back on to campus like when did campus he went back he hasn't okay well yeah so
[00:34:52] again so when people hear this right it'll be beyond so they basically cancel class is a happened on
[00:34:57] a Tuesday they clandestine classes for the rest of the week and then they're going back
[00:35:00] okay yeah um and like I said a lot of kids you know parents went and picked them up and you know
[00:35:06] those who could you know again like a lot of these people are out of state or out of country
[00:35:10] yeah gonna stay on campus and you know and people have said like all week like campus has just been
[00:35:16] super quiet like no out it's weird like when you have this big giant bustling campus to have
[00:35:21] you know it shut down like that what did you do as an em like owning a business like did you
[00:35:27] you know not knowing like that the shooter was found till like midnight did you have to like close
[00:35:33] the office or send down an email or so you know the the slack teams thing is weird now I know we
[00:35:38] communicate immediately when because the shooting and they cappin like at 8 15 pm or right around
[00:35:45] that time and within minutes like the news was out on Twitter and socials and all this stuff and
[00:35:50] people you know kids texting their parents and I think within probably 15 minutes after that
[00:35:57] like our teams channel was like a blaze with everybody like hey is everybody okay right so it's
[00:36:03] like that kind of check in and then like we do with anything like if I mean today I'm the only
[00:36:08] person in the office because it had we just know store last night and um and so we did the same
[00:36:14] thing like hey if you you know if you don't you're gonna be up late or you're gonna be you know
[00:36:19] if you have a kid or whatever like take care of yourself you know let us know how we can help me
[00:36:23] own um but I mean we kind of have I mean a really flexible work environment anyways so it wasn't
[00:36:30] an issue for us but I think a lot of all like there was like there's a target right across from
[00:36:34] campus there's a canes there's always restaurants and and a lot of those just like close down you
[00:36:40] know again but part of it's not knowing and then making a decision like okay everything's safe so
[00:36:45] we can open up you know so right right oh that's crazy long so glad Cooper's okay yeah no I
[00:36:54] again we keep checking in like that's a hard part like you don't every I mean there's gonna be
[00:36:58] kids that won't be okay with this there's gonna be kids that will never come back to them right
[00:37:02] and then the kids are like in effect and this morning on the way and they were like you know all
[00:37:05] the news say you know like stations are interviewing kids and one of the kids was like I wish we could
[00:37:10] just come back to class like and come back to normal like we know the threats not there anymore
[00:37:15] but you know so there's some kids are just more logical about that and they just want to get back
[00:37:19] to their normal life because to them that helps but for some it's not so it's it's just and I think
[00:37:24] the university does a great I think I'll be you know do a great job of trying to understand
[00:37:28] you're gonna have this giant continuum of of mental health issues right some we can't really find
[00:37:33] some won't be then how do we support everybody and it's not linear some could be completely fine
[00:37:39] and then two weeks later it's like no I need to be out of here yeah yeah and like I was I was
[00:37:44] you know Virginia Tech happened like in 2007 that's crazy to me that is crazy to me that that
[00:37:50] was that long ago and I heard an interview with one of the girls I got shot three times and she goes
[00:37:55] when the date of that comes up every single year like in that in that time like and so she's
[00:38:01] like I'm always like I can't remember exactly when that day is what she was talking about like when
[00:38:05] mass shootings happen around the holidays she's like I feel so terrible for those people because I
[00:38:09] know the holidays are never going to be the same for them because they're always have that on
[00:38:13] their mind right so whether we're talking about you know kind of these you know school shooting
[00:38:19] type things or like workplace violent like stuff like yeah I kept telling people my office like
[00:38:24] I actually get I understand workplace violent I understand like let's say I like Madeline
[00:38:30] you're working for me and I think your piece of shit and you're not working really well and I
[00:38:34] fire you but what I do understand is in your personal life you're going through craziness and it
[00:38:40] took away your only income and so now you're gonna lose your house and you have no idea how you're
[00:38:44] gonna pay your bills and like you crack the stress goes over you come in you decide I'm killing Tim
[00:38:49] because he's a you know he's a responsible for all of my bad you know in life I actually understand
[00:38:55] that I get that I don't understand how somebody could come in and then kill eight other people
[00:39:00] in the office and not the person that fired you like again just the HR person me logically I
[00:39:06] can think through that what I don't understand it's like this dude had no connection to campus nothing
[00:39:09] just randomly walked in right loner and decides I'm gonna try to kill as many people as I can like
[00:39:16] I did I just don't and that's you know there's like always mass shooting experts and stuff like
[00:39:20] that they're saying that usually about 90% of shootings there's an actual direct correlation of why
[00:39:26] that person chose that location right either they went to school there they got room they you
[00:39:30] know they got wronged in their mind by something a hundred and three 10% are actually completely
[00:39:35] random and they're like that's the ones that are the scariest because like no way to yeah
[00:39:40] it's no way that's so scary yeah yeah yeah so yeah sorry to end the pod on a downer but I mean
[00:39:48] we can it's important I think we talk about it because I mean again I wish I had an answer I just don't
[00:39:55] yeah it's important and impacted your like you didn't like think this could ever you know happen
[00:40:01] right away and it's and he's a freshman right yeah yeah no and then he's actually going to
[00:40:08] to Israel this summer for like a five week thing and people are like isn't that dangerous and I'm
[00:40:13] like well he might be less dangerous than him going to campus like that's the weird part like they
[00:40:19] just these kids are grilling up in this world where you have to be ultra aware like when I was a kid
[00:40:24] going to school like like the only thing I like worried about was maybe a bully you know like
[00:40:30] that first yeah now they these kids worry about so much more they carry so much more with them
[00:40:37] is too bad and parents too like my parents would have no like there would be no alerts sent to
[00:40:41] the parents if there was anything happening no you'd have no idea no idea no idea yeah yeah yeah
[00:40:49] oh well um great to see you both and talk to you both again and thank you everyone for joining
[00:40:57] us we will see you soon all right bye guys
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