Stefanie Krievins - The Art of Upskilling and Reskilling Employees

[00:00:00] The world of business is more complex than ever. The world of human resources and compensation is also getting more complex. Welcome to the HR Data Labs podcast, your direct source for the latest trends from experts inside and outside the world of human resources. Listen as we explore the impact that compensation strategy, data, and people analytics can have on your organization.

[00:00:25] This podcast is sponsored by salary.com, your source for data, technology, and consulting for compensation and beyond. Now, here are your hosts, David Turetsky and Dwight Brown.

[00:00:38] Hello and welcome to the HR Data Labs podcast. I'm your host, David Turetsky, alongside my friend, co-host, partner, buddy, and colleague from salary.com, Dwight Brown. How are you, Dwight Brown?

[00:00:48] I'm great. How are you doing, David?

[00:00:50] I'm okay. Have I told you lately you look pixelated?

[00:00:55] Like I said, I gotta tell my doctor that.

[00:00:59] Yes.

[00:01:00] He's been asking what weird symptoms I have.

[00:01:02] Yeah.

[00:01:03] What symptoms have you had?

[00:01:04] Well, I'm feeling pretty pixelated right now.

[00:01:06] Yeah. That's a weird Zoom thing that we probably need to tell our doctors every once in a while. We're feeling a little pixelated.

[00:01:11] Oh yeah.

[00:01:13] With us, we have Stephanie Crevins.

[00:01:17] Stephanie, how are you?

[00:01:18] I am super duper.

[00:01:20] Thanks for having me, guys.

[00:01:22] I am not pixelated.

[00:01:24] You are not pixelated.

[00:01:24] You're coming in loud and clear.

[00:01:26] But Stephanie...

[00:01:27] Well, actually not loud, but you're coming in clear.

[00:01:29] Stephanie, tell us a little bit about your background.

[00:01:31] Yeah.

[00:01:33] So, 10 years ago, I started a coaching firm.

[00:01:37] And over the years, we have grown and transitioned and pivoted like so many companies have been doing over the past several years into really designing programs to leverage change, architect change, and create cultures where continuous learning and upskilling truly, truly happen.

[00:01:57] You know, upskilling is the way of the future in our workforces, given where technology is evolving.

[00:02:06] We can't hire and fire our way out of what we need our people to be able to deliver for our companies in the future.

[00:02:13] And so, upskilling is the answer.

[00:02:16] And so, we combine upskilling with change management programming to basically create the future of work, to create organizations that know what in the heck they're doing and can deliver on it in 10 years.

[00:02:28] It's not easy doing change management well, especially when it comes to really emotional things.

[00:02:34] So...

[00:02:34] Agreed.

[00:02:35] I give you lots of kudos for that.

[00:02:36] It's a really tough skill.

[00:02:38] You know, it feels tough when you don't know the right process to use.

[00:02:44] And I think so many companies focus on if we just have the right processes, sorry, just the right processes, just the right project management methodology or project management.

[00:02:54] If we just communicate it three or four times, if we do a training, then we will address what we can and address the change management needs of our people and our organizations.

[00:03:05] And that's just not how humans change.

[00:03:09] Humans change because they can see themselves in the change.

[00:03:12] Right.

[00:03:13] Humans change because they can understand the context within which they're working and they can understand how they can contribute and how they can have autonomy in this new system.

[00:03:22] And so that's really what we want to equip leaders with is, yes, you need great process.

[00:03:28] Yes, you need training.

[00:03:29] Yes, you need communication.

[00:03:30] Chances are you've got to beef up more of that to be even more effective inside of your organization, depending on how large and complex it is.

[00:03:39] And you have to help people see themselves in the future of a company to drive change.

[00:03:45] So they can adopt it.

[00:03:46] Yes.

[00:03:46] They can become part of them.

[00:03:48] Yes.

[00:03:48] Yes.

[00:03:50] Well, Stephanie, what we do with all of our guests, not to all of our guests, but with all of our guests, we ask them one fun thing that no one knows about Stephanie Crevins.

[00:04:01] Oh, man.

[00:04:03] Can I have two?

[00:04:05] Just for you.

[00:04:06] Oh, thank you.

[00:04:07] We'll let you have two.

[00:04:07] We're running a special on this one.

[00:04:10] Two for one today.

[00:04:11] A twofer?

[00:04:12] Excellent.

[00:04:13] A twofer.

[00:04:14] I didn't advertise that, Dwight.

[00:04:16] No, exactly.

[00:04:17] Only special people.

[00:04:18] Yes.

[00:04:20] Coupon code.

[00:04:22] Right.

[00:04:24] So my favorite one right now is that we had to postpone the recording of this podcast because the finalization of my, of the adoption of my little boy, Lincoln, happened very quickly and unexpectedly.

[00:04:38] So he is now officially legally a Crevins, which is magic and amazingness.

[00:04:47] Yes.

[00:04:47] I mean, we knew from the moment we met him that he was a Crevins and to have it be legal and finalized is just, just another level of.

[00:04:54] Wonderful.

[00:04:55] Of comfort, I will say.

[00:04:57] Which is a lesson in change management, y'all.

[00:05:00] Yes, it is.

[00:05:02] And did you do the communication, sending out the card to all of your friends and family?

[00:05:06] Of course.

[00:05:07] Of course.

[00:05:08] Yeah, of course.

[00:05:09] And the one before Mr. Lincoln came into my life is that I'm afraid of heights, so I went skydiving.

[00:05:15] And that tells you everything you need to know about my personality.

[00:05:19] Well, I am too.

[00:05:20] I like being in the damn plane as opposed to my friend Dwight Brown, who likes being out of the damn plane.

[00:05:27] Right.

[00:05:28] Yeah.

[00:05:29] Free flight.

[00:05:30] Free flight.

[00:05:31] Free flight.

[00:05:36] I'm a hockey player, Stephanie.

[00:05:37] The only time I take flight is when I fall off my skates.

[00:05:41] Oh.

[00:05:42] That's the only time I'll take flight.

[00:05:43] Ouch.

[00:05:43] Well, I got a lot of equipment on, so it's okay.

[00:05:45] Yeah, but see, there's, look at the disconnect in that.

[00:05:49] You worry about me jumping off of mountains and flying or Stephanie skydiving, but yet you willingly stand in front of a puck that's going, what, 150, 160 miles an hour straight at your head?

[00:06:02] I'm a fan.

[00:06:02] Slight exaggeration, but okay, I'll take it.

[00:06:05] Yeah.

[00:06:06] And what's your point?

[00:06:07] Yeah.

[00:06:09] In court.

[00:06:10] Yes.

[00:06:10] Do you at least wear a mouth guard?

[00:06:12] Like?

[00:06:12] I'm a goalie, so I have a nice mask on.

[00:06:14] Oh, good.

[00:06:15] So the puck hopefully will never go through my cage.

[00:06:18] If it does, I've got other problems.

[00:06:21] Like, I know he's like, please don't let it go through the cage.

[00:06:24] Yes, please don't let it go through.

[00:06:25] You can see my old helmet right there behind me.

[00:06:28] And yeah, there are no holes in the mask.

[00:06:31] Well, I mean, there are holes, but none caused by a puck.

[00:06:34] But why don't we transition to our topic for today?

[00:06:38] So our topic for today is all about being able to upskill and reskill our employees.

[00:06:45] We're trying to find practical ways in the world of work to not only be able to upskill,

[00:06:53] but also to understand how do you capture the data and how do you inventory your teams,

[00:06:59] which is just up the alley of the HR Data Labs podcast.

[00:07:03] Woohoo!

[00:07:12] So our first question for you, Stephanie, is what are some of the biggest challenges that organizations face when it comes to upskilling their employees?

[00:07:20] Yeah.

[00:07:20] So the two that I hear the most frequently are we don't know where to start.

[00:07:26] And that's because they don't know where they're going.

[00:07:29] Where you're going dictates everything about your upskilling plan.

[00:07:34] And the second is in so many organizations that are flying through every two-week sprint, just operating quarter by quarter by quarter,

[00:07:44] upskilling is never going to fit into a current priority because it's so future-oriented.

[00:07:49] So I think when it comes to the long-term nature of the solution to the upskilling problem,

[00:07:55] I think that's what is probably one of the biggest roadblocks that leaders face.

[00:08:00] And what that means is that we have to spend some intentional time painting the future vision of the organization.

[00:08:10] Ten years is actually the time frame to anchor it to.

[00:08:13] It sounds so far out, but the reason ten years is important is that it's so, so big

[00:08:19] that allows us to actually dream about possibilities versus keeping us in the confines of the current state,

[00:08:26] which makes us more imaginative, more creative.

[00:08:30] And leadership teams have to put together some story of what the future of their organization is going to be

[00:08:37] to then say, these are the type of capabilities we need to pull that off.

[00:08:42] And of course, this isn't the fortune teller's, you know, crystal ball story.

[00:08:47] This is an idea of what the future could hold.

[00:08:50] Just enough to give us something to anchor skills to and then design the levels of the skills that we're going to need.

[00:08:57] AI is the big topic right now.

[00:08:59] By the way, I contend we should all be doing AI drinking games, right?

[00:09:03] Like every time we say AI, we do a shot because it's just the word.

[00:09:07] It's the word du jour.

[00:09:09] There we go.

[00:09:10] There we go.

[00:09:11] I'd be hammered in five minutes.

[00:09:13] Exactly.

[00:09:13] That's the point.

[00:09:14] That's the point.

[00:09:15] Just give me the bottle.

[00:09:17] Then we'd be super creative about it.

[00:09:20] Right.

[00:09:20] But what we think our AI engineering skills are today is great.

[00:09:25] That's really, this is really, we're at middle school level with AI, with what's going to be possible in 10 years.

[00:09:31] You know, this is what the everyday worker is going to be able to leverage with AI is going to be beyond our imaginations in 10 years.

[00:09:39] No one knows what that really means, but we can envision, okay, what do AI engineering skills then need to be in 2024, 2030?

[00:09:49] Let's back that up.

[00:09:51] Let's back that up as a way just to anchor us around some common principles that we think the possibilities of the future are.

[00:09:58] And I know that sounds really, really esoteric.

[00:10:01] But the reality of upskilling is it's all just, it's just like walking up a ladder.

[00:10:07] It's all that it is.

[00:10:09] And it takes a lot of thought and articulation, but it's not, it's not out of the realm of possibility for, for anchoring skills to job categories for 10 years out.

[00:10:24] And then tying that to today.

[00:10:26] Well, let me push back a little bit though.

[00:10:28] Please do.

[00:10:30] On the, you were talking about the leadership's need for seeing what capabilities may need to exist by asking them to kind of look a little bit into, into the future.

[00:10:43] I think a lot of leadership teams today struggle with today.

[00:10:48] Yes.

[00:10:48] And dealing with the current issues of meeting their revenue requirements, meeting cost requirements and whatnot.

[00:10:55] They're also, if they're involved in strategic workforce planning, it's much more short term.

[00:11:01] It's much more one year, two year, three year.

[00:11:05] And trying to figure out those particular things that you're talking about around skills that they're, they're not experts in yet.

[00:11:13] And they don't have those job descriptions written yet.

[00:11:16] Right.

[00:11:16] I think to me, those set up the challenges that prevent some of this upscaling from happening today because of that lack of vision, because of that lack of foresight.

[00:11:28] Because you're not giving your leadership a lot of time to go and sit in a room together and kind of, sorry for the pun, ruminate about this.

[00:11:37] But you're basically asking them to think a little bit ahead when today is killing them.

[00:11:44] Yes.

[00:11:46] So what that articulates is it's not an upskilling problem.

[00:11:51] It's a leadership problem.

[00:11:52] And it's an operations problem.

[00:11:54] So how do we create capacity?

[00:11:57] The higher you are in the organization, the more your feet need to be in the future.

[00:12:01] So how do we create capacity to shift obligations and management to other levels then?

[00:12:09] So that's a whole other, that's a whole other problem to solve for before you can get to upskilling.

[00:12:13] Maybe that'll be a topic for another conversation then.

[00:12:16] We'll just put that to the side.

[00:12:18] But then, so let's say that we do have leaders who are rooted in the future.

[00:12:23] Mm-hmm.

[00:12:24] And they have seen what needs to happen three, four, five years down the line.

[00:12:29] And what you were talking about is being able to set up a plan for giving that training in those skills or skill gaps or closing those skill gaps.

[00:12:41] So first and foremost, they have to anchor the skills in something that's meaningful to their business.

[00:12:47] Let's use ITIL as an example because it's a solid framework.

[00:12:51] Some organizations use ISO.

[00:12:53] I learned of several more last week that I didn't even know existed in the IT world.

[00:12:59] Use a tried and true framework that makes sense to the business.

[00:13:05] And think about those capabilities, capacities, competencies, whatever C word makes sense.

[00:13:14] Blow those out 10 years.

[00:13:17] And then say, if this is what we need 10 years, in 10 years, okay.

[00:13:23] Then inventory based on that framework today.

[00:13:28] And then, so I did this with a client.

[00:13:31] So they're an ITIL shop, right?

[00:13:33] And so we took their service portfolio.

[00:13:37] This is an IT client.

[00:13:39] We took their service portfolio, which articulates their services, their technologies, and their SLAs.

[00:13:45] And we inventoried their competency level from one to five for every employee based on the service portfolio.

[00:13:53] So we broke it down by services as well as technology and asked them to rate their level of competency in each of those.

[00:14:00] And so then we had an inventory and a rating of competency level from one to five for every employee for what they did hold.

[00:14:09] And so we were able to have a numerical, not unbiased, obviously.

[00:14:14] It's not objective, but it's just a way of rating competency.

[00:14:18] A numerical rating of where the organization sat by way of its services and its technology.

[00:14:25] We also did that for its leadership skills around teamwork, innovation, problem solving, and a few other values that matter to them.

[00:14:32] Sure.

[00:14:34] And so then we're able to say, okay, where do we need it to be in three years?

[00:14:39] So we're not truly creating a plan for 10 years out.

[00:14:43] We're daydreaming for 10 years out to give us some kind of North Star in business speak to kind of guide towards.

[00:14:50] Or I prefer the road trip metaphor, right?

[00:14:55] Like, do we know if we're going to Chicago or California?

[00:14:58] The vision tells us if we're going to Chicago or California.

[00:15:02] So then we come back to the competencies of today and say in three years,

[00:15:08] we need this service to have an average competency rating of four, not two.

[00:15:14] How do we get from two to four?

[00:15:17] Who are the people involved?

[00:15:18] What skills specifically do they need to be trained on?

[00:15:21] Who will we go to to make that happen?

[00:15:25] That to me is a very simple plan to then implement.

[00:15:29] Do you feel like organizations have career pathing documented, defined?

[00:15:38] Or do you find that the majority of the organizations you work with with this really don't have much for career pathing?

[00:15:47] I find so we're a lot in the mid-market space and I find that they have.

[00:15:54] I would say there's two groups.

[00:15:56] They have them well documented, but probably not well utilized.

[00:15:59] And then the other group, they don't have nothing.

[00:16:03] They don't have anything documented.

[00:16:05] No.

[00:16:06] Because it seems like that would be a building block.

[00:16:12] First, you have to convince them that they need a strategy, if I'm hearing you correctly.

[00:16:20] And then with that, really helping them break it down and say, all right, what skills do we currently have?

[00:16:28] How are we assessing those skills?

[00:16:31] Lay the groundwork so that you can then get to this step of being able to guide them through the process you were talking about with the scoring of the competencies, definition of the competencies that they need, you know, organizationally, departmentally, on down the line.

[00:16:49] Let me also follow it up by saying, I love the framework you were describing, Stephanie, of New York versus Chicago versus LA.

[00:16:59] Let's just say that.

[00:17:00] Yes.

[00:17:00] We'll be using locations and trying to guide your GPS of where do I need to go.

[00:17:07] The problem I see, it's simple to do that for a PMP or ISO standards or sorry, I'm probably butchering this from a standards perspective.

[00:17:17] So I apologize to the people and our listeners.

[00:17:21] But something as ephemeral as or as wide and rainbowish, rainbowish as AI.

[00:17:30] I mean, we could be talking about generatives all the time.

[00:17:32] Yeah.

[00:17:33] Rainbowish.

[00:17:34] Well, we can make up words.

[00:17:35] It's okay.

[00:17:35] Okay.

[00:17:37] But it's so ephemeral.

[00:17:39] I mean, there's so many different things when you say the words artificial intelligence that you could mean that it's really not very well bounded.

[00:17:46] And unless you have those skills specifically articulated in your job descriptions, I think this is where Dwight was going.

[00:17:53] If you don't have a career framework, then you don't know what to shoot for.

[00:17:56] You don't know where you need to go in order to be able to get there.

[00:18:00] So setting up that career framework gives you the Chicago or L.A.

[00:18:05] Mm-hmm.

[00:18:05] In order to be able to say from to, right?

[00:18:09] And this is the burden of leadership.

[00:18:12] Leadership has to decide what does AI mean to us?

[00:18:16] Not what is AI going to tell our company to be?

[00:18:19] Mm-hmm.

[00:18:25] Mm-hmm.

[00:18:27] Probably seven times in the past six weeks.

[00:18:31] It is leadership has to decide who we're going to be, what we're going to mean to the world, what difference we're going to make because we showed up in work every single day.

[00:18:43] Something has fundamentally shifted in our world where leaders are not creating the capacity to do that.

[00:18:51] And understandably, right, the pressures and the constraints of leadership right now are extremely high.

[00:18:57] So this is not saying, hey, CEO, you need to do one more super important thing.

[00:19:04] Something has fundamentally shifted in the world where leaders are unable to spend the time to do that.

[00:19:10] And their team is looking at them saying, where are we going?

[00:19:15] What are we doing?

[00:19:16] What does AI mean to us?

[00:19:18] And they're not able to answer that question.

[00:19:21] And so we turn it into, well, let's wait and have the world tell us what we mean.

[00:19:26] But it's got to be more collaborative than that.

[00:19:28] The leaders have to go and ask the people, what does AI mean to our company?

[00:19:33] You know, where could we use it?

[00:19:35] What ideas do you have?

[00:19:36] Because we can't blame the leaders necessarily because they're not coming up with all the ideas.

[00:19:41] It's usually the rank and file that have the great ideas.

[00:19:43] I think that's a step in the process for sure.

[00:19:46] But it doesn't come together until the leaders decide that it's going to come together and get articulated.

[00:19:51] Yeah.

[00:19:51] Yeah.

[00:19:51] I don't disagree at all, at all.

[00:19:55] But someone has to close the loop and make the final decision.

[00:19:59] Yeah, of course.

[00:20:01] Like what you hear so far?

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[00:20:05] This podcast is made possible by Salary.com.

[00:20:09] Now, back to the show.

[00:20:11] So let's talk about how do organizations know that there is a skill gap?

[00:20:17] Because I think you started talking about that they can go and then query based on these definitions that we're talking about.

[00:20:23] And I mean, are we saying that they actually have to go to every employee to do that?

[00:20:29] Or is there a job description?

[00:20:31] Are they keeping the skills up to date in job descriptions and saying, do people fit what jobs that they're doing today?

[00:20:38] Or what's the format?

[00:20:40] How do I mean, I guess we're getting a little tactical here.

[00:20:42] But how do we realize that we have a skill gap that needs to be addressed?

[00:20:46] Yeah, so a couple of things that I see in my teams.

[00:20:50] Very simply, I think it is this notion that people don't know what they don't know.

[00:20:56] And so part of it is, is you see a lot of projects being started and stopped.

[00:21:01] You see cycling through vendors every year, maybe 18 months, or even talking about firing a vendor after six months because you chose the wrong one.

[00:21:12] Because you didn't really know how to shop for an appropriate vendor.

[00:21:16] You see projects going way out of scope because people don't know where to start and they don't know where to stop because they don't have the skills to address that issue.

[00:21:32] And those symptoms, I think, could look like a million other problems inside of the business.

[00:21:37] And they maybe do.

[00:21:39] But when you layer in, then you've got teams blaming other teams or blaming leadership for why something isn't happening.

[00:21:48] It's because someone doesn't know what they're supposed to be doing because they don't have the skill to figure it out.

[00:21:56] That never happens.

[00:21:57] We never see people blaming leaders.

[00:21:59] No, no.

[00:22:01] No, no, no.

[00:22:02] My favorite one.

[00:22:04] So we did this skills assessment and the staff, by and large, 650 IT professionals, by and large, rated themselves on innovation competency on a scale of one to five as four.

[00:22:20] Meanwhile, yeah.

[00:22:22] Meanwhile, they couldn't advance any project in their strategic roadmap.

[00:22:28] Nothing.

[00:22:29] I mean, I'm exaggerating here.

[00:22:32] But very little was actually moving forward.

[00:22:36] Mm-hmm.

[00:22:37] There was no innovating happening, right?

[00:22:40] But by being able to put a number on it, we could see the huge gap in expectations between senior leadership team and the rest of the organization.

[00:22:50] That's how you can tell.

[00:22:51] Yeah.

[00:22:52] Yeah.

[00:22:52] There's a skill is not up to snuff.

[00:22:57] Same with project management.

[00:22:58] Same with project management.

[00:22:58] We had the exact same thing with project management.

[00:23:00] And that's because the staff thought they were offering project management as a service when really they had eight PMOs.

[00:23:06] They weren't offering project management as a service.

[00:23:09] Their level of knowledge about project management was so low that they thought they were offering the service of project management when, again, very little work was being shipped out the door.

[00:23:20] And they're like, oh, our execution is 80%.

[00:23:23] No.

[00:23:23] No, it's not.

[00:23:25] It's not.

[00:23:26] I've seen that.

[00:23:27] You might be executing a lot of stuff.

[00:23:29] Let's have a reality check.

[00:23:30] Yes.

[00:23:30] So by putting a number to it, you can identify the gap in expectations and then train around it.

[00:23:37] So now we can go back in and say, this is what innovation means here.

[00:23:41] Here are the competencies.

[00:23:42] Here's how you display those.

[00:23:43] Here are the results that you get because you're innovating.

[00:23:47] So intuitively, you know it because you can tell people aren't asking and answering the right questions.

[00:23:56] Data-wise, you know it when you ask them to rate themselves and they return overly inflated numbers based on actual business work product.

[00:24:07] But then do we have the supervisors or the managers rating them as well to be able to get that gap?

[00:24:13] Yes, you do.

[00:24:14] Okay.

[00:24:15] Yes.

[00:24:15] So the assessment's a top-down as well as a self-assessment.

[00:24:19] Yes.

[00:24:19] And then you're also, you have the job numbers as two.

[00:24:22] So you know what the job gap is and then you know what the manager-employee gap is.

[00:24:26] Yes.

[00:24:26] Well, I would imagine it's interesting and helpful as you look at that.

[00:24:31] So let's take the scenario where the employees are inflating their rating of themselves.

[00:24:38] Their supervisors are rating them highly, but yet upper-level leadership is looking at it.

[00:24:45] I suppose that tells a very different story.

[00:24:48] Number one, you've got the skills gap with the staff.

[00:24:50] Yes.

[00:24:50] But number two, you've got the managerial skills gap there.

[00:24:55] If the supervisors think they're doing a great job of it, you've got a big gap there that needs to be filled.

[00:25:03] So it's, yeah.

[00:25:05] Yeah.

[00:25:05] All of that, while it's kind of disappointing to know that you have all of those gaps in perception and understanding,

[00:25:13] it gives you something to train to, which gives you something to upskill around.

[00:25:18] Hey, are you listening to this and thinking to yourself, man, I wish I could talk to David about this.

[00:25:24] Well, you're in luck.

[00:25:25] We have a special offer for listeners of the HR Data Labs podcast.

[00:25:29] A free half-hour call with me about any of the topics we cover on the podcast or whatever is on your mind.

[00:25:35] Go to salary.com forward slash HRDLConsulting to schedule your free 30-minute call today.

[00:25:44] So let's get to question three.

[00:25:46] What are the best practices in being able to develop and implement an upskilling program to close those gaps?

[00:25:53] Yeah.

[00:25:54] So from my perspective, I'm going to articulate it in this way.

[00:25:57] Number one is understanding that there's always going to be bias built into skilling inventory.

[00:26:04] I had this question one time in front of a group of leaders, and they asked me, you know, how do you do an upskilling plan?

[00:26:11] How do you assess competencies to then figure out where you need to go?

[00:26:15] And I described the process that we just talked through.

[00:26:17] And then he said, well, isn't there bias in there?

[00:26:20] I was like, well, of course there is.

[00:26:21] There's humans involved.

[00:26:22] Of course.

[00:26:23] So we have to be willing to let that go.

[00:26:25] Now, there are lots of great technologies out there for, I call them the typing tests because I'm a Gen Xer and I did lots of typing tests for my temp work over a summer break sometimes.

[00:26:37] There are typing tests that you can take for your skill level and companies can purchase those.

[00:26:42] And I have no doubt that they have done everything possible to reduce bias in those systems as much as they can.

[00:26:49] But one, we have to know that there's bias baked in.

[00:26:52] But that's the beauty of then understanding that bias is also built into our companies.

[00:27:00] And what I mean by that is our companies choose to do something in this world that in theory no other companies do.

[00:27:07] Also a form of bias, also a form of competitive advantage, right?

[00:27:11] So it's not inherently bad.

[00:27:13] We just have to know how to leverage it for good.

[00:27:16] So manage it.

[00:27:17] Don't try to get rid of it.

[00:27:19] The leaders of today, connecting to our earlier point, one of your key responsibilities has to be designing the org or the future.

[00:27:29] So I need our leaders to accept that responsibility again and say, in order to understand where we need to upskill employees to, we have to design the future of the organization for them.

[00:27:41] Four is creating competencies that work for your organization now and in the future.

[00:27:46] There was a trend in HR, and it depends on who you talk to, what perspective they take.

[00:27:52] Some folks say a competency is a competency is a competency, right?

[00:27:56] Like leadership, the definition of leadership is X, Y, and Z.

[00:28:00] And I believe a more modern take on competency development is, I think you should develop the leadership competency that makes sense for your organization.

[00:28:09] And so it needs to have a level of customization to it.

[00:28:12] And that is A-OK.

[00:28:14] So as an organization, you have to know which stance you want to take there.

[00:28:18] My stance is customize the competency for your organization.

[00:28:22] Know what the definition of innovation at ABC company means, and that's OK.

[00:28:29] But Stephanie, don't you think that competencies change so quickly?

[00:28:32] I mean, we're talking about artificial intelligence, you know, that's really kind of think of it as a technology or econometric models or mathematical models that are in a very specific format.

[00:28:44] But, you know, 10 years ago, we weren't talking about that.

[00:28:48] No.

[00:28:48] Five years ago, we were probably starting to talk about it, but not really.

[00:28:51] We were basically saying the robots are going to take over, but that was more process automation, more even manufacturing process automation.

[00:29:00] So how do we stay on top of competencies?

[00:29:02] Because the moment you finish doing a skill assessment, it's old, right?

[00:29:05] I mean, the moment that pen to paper stops or God, that's an old phrase.

[00:29:12] The moment you finish your assessment.

[00:29:15] Yeah, the envelope with the ropes.

[00:29:18] The moment you finish your survey of these people, the assessment, it's already old.

[00:29:24] So how do you keep all this stuff modern so that it becomes something that continues to be useful?

[00:29:30] Because otherwise, we're going to be constantly assessing people and people go to classes all the time.

[00:29:34] People, you know, read a newspaper and go, oh, now I know about that.

[00:29:38] That's not really, it's not really gaining a skill.

[00:29:41] But you know what I mean?

[00:29:41] How do we keep this stuff modern, relevant?

[00:29:45] There's an element of you have to bake it into the machine, which means it has to be simple.

[00:29:51] So you have to have a cadence that you revisit this that makes sense for your team.

[00:29:56] Probably once a year is fine.

[00:29:58] And so that also means by way of choice, right?

[00:30:02] Instead of a library of 17 competencies that are relevant here at ABC Company, we get three.

[00:30:08] All right.

[00:30:09] Three.

[00:30:11] Your team, your job function has three.

[00:30:15] So we have three ways of working for cultural competencies.

[00:30:18] We have three competencies for your job function.

[00:30:21] And we have two competencies for your role.

[00:30:25] Because that's part of, you know, one of the things we hear from CEOs is my company is not nimble because it's so complex because we've just added and added and added.

[00:30:34] The true definition of a strategy requires us to say no to something.

[00:30:38] Say no to more.

[00:30:40] Say no to complexity.

[00:30:42] Right.

[00:30:42] Right.

[00:30:43] Kind of like managing workload.

[00:30:45] Out of curiosity, from your experience, who owns this process in the organization?

[00:30:55] Ideally HR.

[00:30:56] But is OD, I mean, you think that's an OD function in HR or do you think that's a ER?

[00:31:02] Do you think it's a HR, HR?

[00:31:05] Who owns that really?

[00:31:06] Well, great point.

[00:31:08] I always think of OD as underneath HR.

[00:31:12] Again, it depends on the level of, I know, it depends on the level of complexity of organization you're working with.

[00:31:18] Those are fighting words.

[00:31:20] I know, right?

[00:31:21] I know.

[00:31:22] This is why I have no friends, David.

[00:31:24] I say things like this.

[00:31:25] Well, to all of our OD friends, we don't agree with Stephanie.

[00:31:31] Throw it right into us.

[00:31:33] Back it up.

[00:31:33] I think we just got an explicit rating on this podcast episode.

[00:31:37] Wait, wait, wait, wait.

[00:31:38] I didn't use a bad word, did I?

[00:31:40] No, we didn't have to.

[00:31:41] She just used the bad phrase.

[00:31:43] That's all.

[00:31:46] No, but to the point, though, the people who understand it really need to own it.

[00:31:52] And that's why I mentioned OD.

[00:31:55] Because OD, that's their thing, right?

[00:31:57] It is.

[00:31:57] You're right.

[00:31:58] They love being able to use the science of words to break down what people do.

[00:32:02] Whereas the rest of us really don't get it.

[00:32:04] I mean, except in comp, where we have to use those skills to kind of match to a job description.

[00:32:09] Yes.

[00:32:09] To match to a survey.

[00:32:10] Yep.

[00:32:11] I'm not saying comp should own that.

[00:32:13] God, no.

[00:32:14] But really, the people that I've worked with in the past that really kind of own that are OD.

[00:32:20] Out of that point, if OD owns it, but what you're seeing in organizations is it's not happening.

[00:32:29] What's the disconnect there?

[00:32:31] Why is that not happening?

[00:32:33] Yeah, there's no OD.

[00:32:35] Do they not have a seat at the table?

[00:32:36] Are they not viewed as being, you know, confident to do this?

[00:32:41] What do you see?

[00:32:43] Yeah.

[00:32:44] You know, and so let me back up.

[00:32:46] The reason I said HR versus the CIO for his department.

[00:32:51] And I work with a lot of, here's why I say this.

[00:32:54] I work with a lot of organizations where the head of the division, let's say the CIO, the CMO, is picking up a lot of these responsibilities because OD's not, L&D's not, HR's not, comp is not.

[00:33:08] They are not creating.

[00:33:10] So it's falling back on them.

[00:33:12] Yes.

[00:33:13] I mean, CIOs are hiring me to do this work and they have entire HR systems and OD people and L&D because they're not delivering on the relevant skills and tools that IT leaders need.

[00:33:30] So, and IT is just one example.

[00:33:31] I just happen to work with a lot of IT leaders.

[00:33:33] So that's a gap.

[00:33:36] And oftentimes it's because that IT leader will come from another more sophisticated organization where they had that support and now they can't get it at this other organization.

[00:33:46] So that's a huge gap.

[00:33:48] But I agree.

[00:33:49] I think ideally OD, L&D would work in collaboration.

[00:33:55] Now, when we say, oh, is that because OD doesn't have a seat in the table?

[00:33:59] I'm going to say this.

[00:34:02] Every function at a company feels like they either have a seat at the table and don't have a voice or don't have a seat at the table.

[00:34:09] Marketing says that.

[00:34:10] IT says that.

[00:34:11] I don't work with a lot of finance people, but some finance people will say things like, well, they told me to work this budget, but then they don't listen to me when it comes to financial decisions.

[00:34:21] I have yet to meet a functional leader that feels like they have a voice at the seat at the table.

[00:34:28] Interesting.

[00:34:28] But is it the kids' table or is it the adults' table?

[00:34:31] That's what I'll ask.

[00:34:32] There you go.

[00:34:33] But at some level, everyone feels like they don't, like their voice isn't being heard is what they're saying.

[00:34:42] So again, that's an influence problem, not another type of problem.

[00:34:48] But that also comes back down to most organizations are not the office, right?

[00:34:53] Correct.

[00:34:54] Sorry, Michael Scott.

[00:34:55] I'm going to throw you under the bus here.

[00:34:56] Like the level of dysfunction that does exist in most companies does hold them back.

[00:35:01] Yes.

[00:35:02] But it's not everybody.

[00:35:04] And it's usually in pockets.

[00:35:07] It's not everybody.

[00:35:07] And either that's historical.

[00:35:09] There's the reason why we've always done this or whatever, or just people.

[00:35:12] It's just the people that are in it.

[00:35:14] But it goes back to skills.

[00:35:15] They don't have the skills to be able to get the job done.

[00:35:18] And no one's questioning their competency.

[00:35:22] Because if you go to a leader and you go, you suck at leading, what's going to happen to you?

[00:35:27] You're not going to be there longer.

[00:35:30] Especially if you're an OD and you're looking at the gap and you go, well, your boss who's the board said you don't have this skill.

[00:35:37] By the way, that's never happening.

[00:35:40] So to me, that's the problem, Stephanie, is that a lot of the time it's the people at the top level who don't have those competencies.

[00:35:48] They don't have those skills who are not getting the assessments because their boss says, you don't need to take that shit.

[00:35:57] Yeah, they're going to be exempt.

[00:35:59] No, but they say it's not worth our time.

[00:36:03] So don't take it.

[00:36:04] So how do we get everybody?

[00:36:06] How do we get 100% compliance with those assessments to be able to know what we need upskilling on?

[00:36:13] I mean, if I were running them, I wouldn't allow any exceptions.

[00:36:16] That doesn't make any sense to me.

[00:36:19] That doesn't fix anybody's problem.

[00:36:22] No, I think there are a lot of CEOs who basically say my executive team doesn't need to do that stuff.

[00:36:29] I'm not pointing fingers.

[00:36:30] I'm just saying that I've met.

[00:36:32] It's a reality.

[00:36:33] Yeah, it is.

[00:36:34] It is.

[00:36:35] But that's a question that I think we pose to our audience.

[00:36:38] Yes.

[00:36:39] And I'd like to hear back what other people think on that because you don't have to be an expert in the field, as we see, to know that your organization may have these challenges.

[00:36:50] So, you know, we'll let you guys talk about that amongst yourselves and let us know what you think.

[00:37:04] But Stephanie, we can talk about this forever.

[00:37:06] And we have.

[00:37:10] I lost track of time, actually.

[00:37:12] Yeah, I love it, too.

[00:37:13] I just love it.

[00:37:14] We love these podcasts.

[00:37:16] Yeah.

[00:37:16] I mean, we love talking to people who get it and who understand the business problem that's being dealt with and have practical solutions for it.

[00:37:24] So, thank you, Stephanie.

[00:37:26] Yeah.

[00:37:26] No, I appreciate it.

[00:37:28] There's so many of us trying to do really good work.

[00:37:32] And I just want to be part of fixing it at every level.

[00:37:36] It's I do believe in my heart of hearts.

[00:37:39] There's a solution to every problem.

[00:37:41] And jamming about it is the first place to start with it.

[00:37:45] So, thank you.

[00:37:46] My pleasure.

[00:37:47] So, Dwight, thank you.

[00:37:49] Thank you.

[00:37:49] Thanks for being with us, Stephanie.

[00:37:51] Yeah, thank you.

[00:37:52] And, Dwight, I hope you feel better with being pixelated.

[00:37:54] I hope you become less pixelated.

[00:37:57] I wonder what drugs you'll give me for that.

[00:38:00] It's going around.

[00:38:01] Oh, yeah.

[00:38:04] Thank you all for listening.

[00:38:05] Take care and stay safe.

[00:38:08] That was the HR Data Labs podcast.

[00:38:11] If you like the episode, please subscribe.

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[00:38:17] Thank you for joining us this week and stay tuned for our next episode.

[00:38:21] Stay safe.