Jacob Morgan - Leading With Vulnerability

[00:00:00] Here's an experiment for you. Take passionate experts in human resource technology. Invite

[00:00:08] cross industry experts from inside and outside HR. Mix in what's happening in people analytics

[00:00:14] today. Give them the technology to connect, hit record, pour their discussions into a

[00:00:20] beaker. Mix thoroughly and voila! You get the HR Data Labs podcast where we explore

[00:00:27] the impact of data and analytics to your business. We may get passionate and even irreverent

[00:00:33] that count on each episode challenging and enhancing your understanding of the way people

[00:00:38] data can be used to solve real world problems. Now, here's your host, David Turetsky.

[00:00:44] Hello and welcome to the HR Data Labs podcast. I'm your host, David Turetsky, alongside

[00:00:50] my friend, trusted colleague, souri.com's own Dwight Brown. Dwight, how are you?

[00:00:56] I'm doing well, David. How are you doing?

[00:00:58] I'm good. It's snowing a lot outside today. They've closed down Franklin, Massachusetts for

[00:01:03] the three and a half inches of snow that we have right now.

[00:01:08] Which, you know, it's not that much. Anyways, today we have with us a best selling author,

[00:01:16] Jacob Morgan. Jacob, how are you?

[00:01:19] I'm doing well. Thank you for having me.

[00:01:21] Thank you for being here.

[00:01:22] So Jacob, why don't you give us a little bit of your background and all those best selling

[00:01:27] books? You have what, five books?

[00:01:29] Yes, sir. Five books. Recent one just came out a couple, I guess it's a few months ago

[00:01:34] now called Leading with Vulnerability. So we can talk a little bit about that as well.

[00:01:39] But basically I got involved in everything that I'm doing because I had bad jobs working

[00:01:43] for other people. And so around 15, 16 years ago, I went off on my own, started

[00:01:49] writing, speaking, doing all sorts of fun stuff. And now here we are.

[00:01:54] Well, so everybody wants to be their own boss, but having been one, it's not as easy as people think.

[00:02:00] No. No, it's not. If it was that easy, everybody would do it.

[00:02:06] Well, everybody tries, right?

[00:02:07] Yeah, I mean there's certainly pros and cons to everything and anything that you do.

[00:02:11] But yeah, I mean I've been very fortunate and I've enjoyed being my own boss.

[00:02:15] But of course, I mean you work like crazy, right? I mean it's lots of challenges that

[00:02:19] come your way. I was fortunate to start off, go off on my own when I didn't have kids,

[00:02:23] I didn't have a mortgage, I didn't have a car payment. I was single, my expenses were low.

[00:02:27] So that certainly helps. You know, if I were in the position I'm in now where I'm married,

[00:02:32] I have two kids and mortgage and all that sort of stuff. If I had to go off on my own,

[00:02:36] it probably would have been much harder to do now than it was 15, 16 years ago.

[00:02:40] Complications.

[00:02:42] Yes. Yes, that's a nice way to put that, complications.

[00:02:45] The best complications possible. Exactly, yeah.

[00:02:50] So one of the things we love to do, Jacob, is to ask each of our guests one fun thing

[00:02:55] that no one knows about them. What's your one fun thing?

[00:02:59] Oh my goodness. I play competitive chess and racquetball.

[00:03:03] That's probably something people don't know.

[00:03:06] But not at the same time though, right?

[00:03:07] Not at the same time. That would be pretty impressive if I could do both at the same time.

[00:03:10] That would be very impressive.

[00:03:12] Yeah, yeah. I had a really into fitness, health, so exercise all the time, eat healthy,

[00:03:17] so really into that whole space.

[00:03:20] So the fact that I have ramen and pizza for lunch, that does not impress you at all then?

[00:03:25] Oh man, ramen and pizza. Just hearing those two things together,

[00:03:29] I had shivers going down my spine.

[00:03:33] Well, it's gonna be shivers going down my belly in a little bit because that's lunch today.

[00:03:39] No, well, it's what you gotta do.

[00:03:42] I'm kind of running out of time today so there you go.

[00:03:44] Yeah, you gotta do what you gotta do.

[00:03:46] So the really cool thing that we're gonna be talking to you about today,

[00:03:49] the topic is leading with vulnerability,

[00:03:52] which is really about bringing together competence and connection.

[00:03:56] And this is one of the really cool things in HR,

[00:03:59] is people having a really good EQ, I guess, right?

[00:04:03] Yep.

[00:04:03] So that'll be a really interesting thing to explore.

[00:04:09] So let's talk about this in a way that might make sense to people and bring it a little bit home.

[00:04:16] What's the difference between being vulnerable and leading with vulnerability?

[00:04:21] Vulnerability is, I think, something we are all familiar with.

[00:04:24] We've talked about it for years.

[00:04:25] Brené Brown was one of the pioneers in doing research in that space

[00:04:29] and making the phrase, the word vulnerability commonplace,

[00:04:34] something that we've talked about in our personal and professional life.

[00:04:36] Simply put, when we think about vulnerability,

[00:04:39] you can broadly think of it as doing or saying something

[00:04:42] that exposes you to the potential of emotional harm.

[00:04:44] In your personal life, it's very clear why vulnerability is relevant

[00:04:48] and why it's important because it creates trust and a connection

[00:04:51] and it builds relationships with friends, with family members,

[00:04:54] with your spouses, people who are close to you.

[00:04:56] But inside of our organizations, we have a very different dynamic.

[00:04:59] Inside of an organization, you have a boss.

[00:05:02] You have a partner.

[00:05:04] Inside of an organization, you have a boss.

[00:05:06] You have employees who work for you.

[00:05:08] You have customers.

[00:05:09] You have projects.

[00:05:10] You have deadlines.

[00:05:11] You have a salary.

[00:05:12] You have people who are depending on you and people who you are dependent on.

[00:05:16] Now in that kind of environment, simply just doing or saying something

[00:05:21] frequently that exposes you to the potential of emotional harm

[00:05:24] is actually not going to serve you very well.

[00:05:26] In fact, purely being vulnerable at work can actually hurt you far more

[00:05:30] than it can help you.

[00:05:31] And so think about vulnerability as this idea of exposing a gap that you have.

[00:05:36] It could be a gap in competence, a gap in knowledge, a gap in experience,

[00:05:41] a gap in emotion, a gap in whatever it is.

[00:05:44] Now again, in your personal life, it's very clear why that's useful

[00:05:47] and why that's important.

[00:05:48] But in your professional life, do you just want to show up every day

[00:05:53] talking about the gaps that you have?

[00:05:55] That's really what vulnerability is and what it's about.

[00:05:58] Leading with vulnerability on the other hand is about talking

[00:06:01] about the gaps that you have and then demonstrating what you're trying

[00:06:04] to do to close those gaps.

[00:06:05] So for example, if you work on a team with somebody or let's say

[00:06:09] somebody works on your team and they come to you and they say,

[00:06:12] hey, I'm really sorry, I made a mistake.

[00:06:14] That's very vulnerable.

[00:06:15] They're exposing themselves to the potential of emotional harm.

[00:06:18] They're admitting to something that's uncomfortable,

[00:06:20] that's maybe a little bit embarrassing,

[00:06:22] something that questions their competence and their value

[00:06:25] to the team or to the organization.

[00:06:27] However, if somebody just comes to you and says, hey, I'm really sorry,

[00:06:29] I made a mistake.

[00:06:30] I don't know what happened.

[00:06:32] You as a leader are not going to look at that employee and say,

[00:06:35] oh, gee, thank you so much for telling me.

[00:06:37] You as a leader are going to look at your employee and say,

[00:06:39] great, thanks for telling me now what?

[00:06:41] Right, did you fix it?

[00:06:43] Right, exactly.

[00:06:44] How are you going to find out what went wrong?

[00:06:46] Yeah, the customer is still unhappy.

[00:06:48] The problem is still there.

[00:06:49] The product still hasn't been finished.

[00:06:52] And so you don't just want your employees to come to you

[00:06:54] and say, oh, I'm so sorry I did that.

[00:06:56] You want your employees to say, hey, here's what I'm going to do to fix it.

[00:06:59] So leading with vulnerability would be taking that same scenario

[00:07:02] and saying, hey, I'm really sorry I made a mistake.

[00:07:04] But here's what I learned from that mistake.

[00:07:06] And here are three things that I'm going to do to make sure

[00:07:08] that that mistake never happens again.

[00:07:10] So in other words, it's taking that accountability,

[00:07:13] that agency, that control that you are learning

[00:07:17] and growing and improving and trying to get better.

[00:07:20] And too often inside of our organizations,

[00:07:22] we've been very focused on the emotional intelligence piece,

[00:07:25] which granted is important.

[00:07:27] But I feel like over the past few years,

[00:07:29] we've been forgetting that competence,

[00:07:31] that leadership, that being good at your job,

[00:07:33] that work ethic, that occasional sacrifice,

[00:07:35] that being able to tell people to work hard,

[00:07:38] we're forgetting about that.

[00:07:40] And that is still very important.

[00:07:43] It's not just about how your employees are feeling,

[00:07:46] but you also want to make sure that they are doing a great job.

[00:07:50] And saying that has almost become taboo in a lot of organizations.

[00:07:55] I mean, can you imagine a lot of leaders now saying,

[00:07:58] hey, you know, this job, this role is going to take occasional sacrifices from you.

[00:08:02] Sometimes you might have to stay late.

[00:08:04] Sometimes you might have to wake up early.

[00:08:06] Sometimes you might have to put in a few extra hours.

[00:08:08] Sometimes you're going to have to do a job or a role that you don't want to do.

[00:08:11] Today you tell employees that and they say, oh my God.

[00:08:15] Well, they might leave over that, right?

[00:08:17] They might see that as being a challenge or a threat to them in a certain way.

[00:08:21] Yeah, and you know what? That's okay.

[00:08:24] It should be a challenge.

[00:08:25] It should be something that pushes you.

[00:08:27] It should be something that makes you uncomfortable.

[00:08:29] Now, again, part of this also depends on your personal expectations

[00:08:34] and your aspirations of yourself.

[00:08:37] If you are an employee who's comfortable being mediocre,

[00:08:40] you have no aspirations of growing, of developing,

[00:08:43] of being a leader, of getting into senior or executive level roles.

[00:08:46] And you just want to stay where you are for the rest of your life.

[00:08:49] That's fine.

[00:08:50] Go find a job where you're not pushed, where you're not challenged,

[00:08:52] where you can just work 30 hours a week when you can just coast

[00:08:55] and not have to worry about anything.

[00:08:57] But for most people in the world, that is not something that they want.

[00:09:00] They aspire to these roles.

[00:09:02] They want to make an impact.

[00:09:03] They want to make a difference.

[00:09:04] They want to get into those leadership positions.

[00:09:07] And guess what?

[00:09:08] That's going to take time and effort.

[00:09:10] I interviewed Frank Blake.

[00:09:11] He's the former CEO of the Home Depot.

[00:09:13] He told me that one of the things that people don't understand about leadership

[00:09:16] is that leaders always do more and they care more.

[00:09:20] And so we need employees to understand that if they have aspirations

[00:09:24] of growth and development, they have to do more and they have to care more.

[00:09:27] So broadly speaking, those two differences between vulnerability

[00:09:30] and leading with vulnerability,

[00:09:32] vulnerability is about exposing a gap,

[00:09:34] leading with vulnerabilities about exposing a gap

[00:09:36] and demonstrating what you're trying to do to close that gap.

[00:09:40] In terms of the revealing that gap,

[00:09:43] some might say, hey, do I need to sing it from the mountain tops?

[00:09:47] Or is it okay to go through that with one individual, my boss for example?

[00:09:52] Yeah.

[00:09:53] I never recommend somebody to just in an all hands meeting

[00:09:57] raise their hand and say, I screwed up today

[00:10:00] or post on your internal collaboration platform.

[00:10:02] I'm an idiot.

[00:10:03] I can't believe I failed.

[00:10:04] Not advisable.

[00:10:05] Now, I mean context matters, right?

[00:10:07] And so only you are going to know who you need to be speaking with.

[00:10:11] If it's a leader, talk to your leader.

[00:10:13] If it's a team, talk to your team.

[00:10:15] But again, the big mistake and we see this all the time

[00:10:17] with new leaders as well.

[00:10:19] When a new leader gets promoted either for a leadership role

[00:10:22] for the first time or when they get promoted

[00:10:24] into an executive role for the first time,

[00:10:26] a senior leadership role.

[00:10:27] And they're told, hey, you know,

[00:10:29] why don't you say a few words to your team?

[00:10:31] And one of the things that first time leaders always say

[00:10:34] is they'll get in front of their all hands, their team.

[00:10:36] And they'll say, hey, you know, I'm so excited to be here.

[00:10:39] I've never been in this position before,

[00:10:41] but I know I'm going to make a positive impact.

[00:10:43] We're going to do some amazing things together.

[00:10:45] I'm really looking forward to working with all of you.

[00:10:47] Now on the surface that doesn't sound like a terrible message,

[00:10:50] but it doesn't convey any kind of competence.

[00:10:53] It doesn't convey any kind of leadership.

[00:10:55] And so what can you do instead?

[00:10:57] Again, let's say your first time leader,

[00:10:59] you've never done this before.

[00:11:01] When you are addressing your team,

[00:11:03] you can start off with that same level of vulnerability.

[00:11:05] Hey, I've never done this before.

[00:11:07] I'm excited to be a first time leader

[00:11:09] to help make sure I'm the best leader that you've ever had here

[00:11:11] three things that I'm going to do.

[00:11:13] Number one is I'm getting coaching and mentoring

[00:11:15] from our SVP of marketing

[00:11:17] who's been at this company for 10 years.

[00:11:19] She's going to be checking in with me every week.

[00:11:21] We're going to be meeting for 30 to 60 minutes

[00:11:23] so that she can give me some guidance

[00:11:25] on how I'm leading the team

[00:11:27] and how I'm progressing.

[00:11:29] I've also been working with an executive coach.

[00:11:31] He's going to be interviewing you

[00:11:33] and talking to you to make sure that I'm moving

[00:11:35] in the right direction.

[00:11:37] And here are three to five leadership books

[00:11:39] that I'm committed to reading over the next month

[00:11:41] and I encourage you to grab a copy of this book as well

[00:11:43] so that you can follow along with my progress

[00:11:45] and my leadership journey.

[00:11:47] And my door is always open.

[00:11:49] Give me feedback so that I can be the best leader

[00:11:51] that you've ever had.

[00:11:53] Now again, I'm vulnerable in that situation.

[00:11:55] I'm acknowledging and admitting that I've never done this

[00:11:57] but I'm also demonstrating competence.

[00:11:59] I'm not just a coach.

[00:12:01] I'm a coach.

[00:12:03] I'm being mentored by an executive at the company.

[00:12:05] I'm committing my time to reading these leadership books.

[00:12:07] So now if you work for me

[00:12:09] and I'm a first-time leader,

[00:12:11] you're not going to say,

[00:12:13] I don't know about this Jacob person.

[00:12:15] He's never done this before.

[00:12:17] I don't really know.

[00:12:19] Now you're going to say,

[00:12:21] hey, you know what, I know Jacob has never done this before

[00:12:23] but man, this guy seems serious

[00:12:25] about being a great leader.

[00:12:27] So I think that's a very different message

[00:12:29] and a very different way to position yourself inside the company.

[00:12:31] Sure Jacob, but that takes investment

[00:12:33] for both the company as well as that person

[00:12:35] and needs to be part of their individual development plan,

[00:12:37] especially not only

[00:12:39] after they've taken the job

[00:12:41] but potentially even before they've taken that job

[00:12:43] so that they know

[00:12:45] that they have those things behind them

[00:12:47] and next to them

[00:12:49] and for their development.

[00:12:51] Is that really part of most companies'

[00:12:53] development plans to be able to

[00:12:55] provide that kind of assistance

[00:12:57] or is that something that someone should actually

[00:12:59] be proactive about if they are taking that kind of a role?

[00:13:01] I think a lot of organizations

[00:13:03] do a fairly good job of providing

[00:13:05] those types of programs but let's say

[00:13:07] you're part of an organization that doesn't have that

[00:13:09] and in fact, I found that most people

[00:13:11] when they get put into leadership roles

[00:13:13] they don't actually have any kind of formal leadership training.

[00:13:15] And so if you don't have

[00:13:17] any formal leadership training then you need to be proactive

[00:13:19] and take advantage of a couple things yourself.

[00:13:21] So number one is you can ask

[00:13:23] an executive to coach you

[00:13:25] and mentor you or to give you advice that's free.

[00:13:27] You can

[00:13:29] spend time reading books, listening to podcasts

[00:13:31] even taking courses. Most of that

[00:13:33] is pretty much free.

[00:13:35] Chances are your organization has

[00:13:37] a leadership development program

[00:13:39] that maybe you just don't know about so ask

[00:13:41] to participate in that. That for you is likely

[00:13:43] also going to be free.

[00:13:45] You can meet with peers

[00:13:47] you can meet with leaders and other companies

[00:13:49] and other teams and other departments

[00:13:51] there's nothing stopping you from developing

[00:13:53] as a leader if you don't have that

[00:13:55] formal leadership training. In fact

[00:13:57] a lot of the CEOs I've interviewed for the book

[00:13:59] for example the CEO of

[00:14:01] 1-800-FLOWERS Jim McCann he never

[00:14:03] received any kind of formal leadership training

[00:14:05] he learned how to lead based

[00:14:07] on the people that he surrounded himself with

[00:14:09] and so you if

[00:14:11] you aspire to be in a leadership role

[00:14:13] surround yourself with leaders

[00:14:15] surround yourself with people who you

[00:14:17] emulate who you want to be like

[00:14:19] and this gets into the whole debate which we can

[00:14:21] talk about if you want.

[00:14:23] I'm working the office versus working from home

[00:14:25] because I have a lot of strong opinions on that

[00:14:27] as well again depending on if you aspire

[00:14:29] to be in that leadership role or not.

[00:14:31] Well we'll get to that but first

[00:14:33] let's ask the next question

[00:14:35] because I think it's important for this.

[00:14:49] Why do most people

[00:14:51] not lead with vulnerability

[00:14:53] at work? Yeah we asked 14

[00:14:55] thousand employees this question and we said why are you

[00:14:57] scared of

[00:14:59] leading with vulnerability inside your organization

[00:15:01] and not surprisingly the number one response

[00:15:03] that came back is I don't want to be perceived

[00:15:05] as being weak or incompetent

[00:15:07] right I mean I don't want to

[00:15:09] expose myself

[00:15:11] and share any gaps that I have because

[00:15:13] I don't want people to think that I'm

[00:15:15] that I don't belong here that I'm not good at my job

[00:15:17] and so the way that you change that perception

[00:15:19] is pretty much what we've been talking

[00:15:21] about is you add competence to the vulnerability

[00:15:23] so yeah don't just

[00:15:25] say I made a mistake

[00:15:27] don't just say I don't know how to do this

[00:15:29] don't just say I need help

[00:15:31] don't just say I'm unsure of what the next step is

[00:15:33] don't just keep exposing the gap that you have

[00:15:35] but add competence

[00:15:37] add that level of leadership

[00:15:39] to all of those different types

[00:15:41] of situations and scenarios

[00:15:43] when you feel vulnerable.

[00:15:45] For example if somebody on my team asks me for help

[00:15:47] I'll say

[00:15:49] hey I'm happy to help you but what are you going to do

[00:15:51] going forward to make sure that you can figure this out yourself

[00:15:53] right if somebody says

[00:15:55] hey Jacob I'm sorry I made a mistake

[00:15:57] I say I appreciate you telling me what are you

[00:15:59] going to do to make sure this doesn't happen again in the future

[00:16:01] if you have a friend in your personal life

[00:16:03] who says hey I'm trying to lose weight or I'm trying to stop

[00:16:05] smoking you say great what are you doing about it

[00:16:07] right so it's

[00:16:09] it all comes down to this

[00:16:11] idea of taking responsibility

[00:16:13] accountability

[00:16:15] over your personal and your professional

[00:16:17] growth right that is

[00:16:19] absolutely crucial and that's what this whole

[00:16:21] theme of leading with vulnerability is about

[00:16:23] and so that's

[00:16:25] non-stop what I tell employees you have to

[00:16:27] combine leadership

[00:16:29] with vulnerability competence

[00:16:31] with connection you cannot just have one

[00:16:33] a lot of times we'll see the Peter

[00:16:35] principle come into effect when people get

[00:16:37] promoted right they get promoted

[00:16:39] to their highest level of

[00:16:41] dysfunction right

[00:16:43] so somebody might be really great at building

[00:16:45] widgets but they're not great at leading

[00:16:47] and so

[00:16:49] they get promoted to a new role where they might

[00:16:51] actually have this leadership as

[00:16:53] you know one of their potential

[00:16:55] skills that they need to grow

[00:16:57] it's in that case it may not be as easy

[00:16:59] as just getting training

[00:17:01] and while they may have competence in all the

[00:17:03] other areas of their company

[00:17:05] and that's really served them well

[00:17:07] what do they do to kind of make sure

[00:17:09] that that's something that they can achieve or

[00:17:11] do people sometimes have to be much

[00:17:13] more mature about this and sometimes say

[00:17:15] yeah I don't know if this

[00:17:17] is good for me maybe I should be in that other

[00:17:19] role instead oh absolutely

[00:17:21] there are many scenarios

[00:17:23] and I used to work

[00:17:25] this was many many years ago but I interned

[00:17:27] at Morgan Stanley way

[00:17:29] way back in the day I don't even remember

[00:17:31] maybe I was 18 or 19 years old

[00:17:33] and at the time when I was

[00:17:35] working in Morgan Stanley for the summer

[00:17:37] I noticed that all the people who were getting

[00:17:39] promoted to leadership roles to being

[00:17:41] like a VP or an SVP

[00:17:43] had nothing to do with their ability

[00:17:45] to lead other people these were some of the

[00:17:47] biggest jackasses

[00:17:49] rudest just

[00:17:51] unpleasant people

[00:17:53] I used to work there too

[00:17:55] and I got promoted there so you're probably

[00:17:57] talking about me uh oh

[00:17:59] uh oh it's okay

[00:18:01] I own it yeah

[00:18:03] but they got promoted into the leadership roles because

[00:18:05] they were bringing in a lot of deals

[00:18:07] right so if you were managing X amount

[00:18:09] millions of dollars you were a VP or an SVP

[00:18:11] had nothing to do with your ability to lead

[00:18:13] anybody else

[00:18:15] and I was working in an interning and I was

[00:18:17] interning I think it was for an SVP there

[00:18:19] and man this guy was just

[00:18:21] I don't want to get into the details but he was just

[00:18:23] rude and unpleasant had no social skills

[00:18:25] no emotional intelligence and I'm sitting there

[00:18:27] thinking like how the hell

[00:18:29] are you an SVP at this organization

[00:18:31] simply because you brought in a lot of money

[00:18:33] and this is very common inside of organizations

[00:18:35] around the world right

[00:18:37] and so the big challenge here

[00:18:39] is I mean very

[00:18:41] rarely are you going to see somebody in that

[00:18:43] position say hey you know what

[00:18:45] I know you want me to be SVP here but

[00:18:47] um nah no thank you

[00:18:49] like I acknowledge I don't have these

[00:18:51] skills and I'm just

[00:18:53] going to turn down this massive raise

[00:18:55] and the partnership opportunity leaders

[00:18:57] are very rarely ever going to do

[00:18:59] that and so the big

[00:19:01] challenge there and what we need to do is to focus on

[00:19:03] defining what leadership means

[00:19:05] what does it mean to be a great leader inside of your organization

[00:19:07] and identify what are those filters

[00:19:09] what are those values what are those qualities

[00:19:11] and attributes and mindsets and skills

[00:19:13] and make sure that those are the types of people

[00:19:15] that you're promoting

[00:19:17] and one of the things that I'm always fascinated by

[00:19:19] is I would go inside of an organization I've been

[00:19:21] inside hundreds if not thousands of them at this point

[00:19:23] and I would see that in the same company

[00:19:25] with the same corporate values

[00:19:27] with the same principles with the same mission and

[00:19:29] mission statement there would be some leaders

[00:19:31] that everybody loves, admires and respects

[00:19:33] and other leaders in that same company

[00:19:35] that everybody's scared of and hates

[00:19:37] and fears now how is it

[00:19:39] the same company same culture

[00:19:41] same values two different

[00:19:43] types of leaders one that everybody loves one that everybody

[00:19:45] hates it's because the people who

[00:19:47] promoted them have different definitions

[00:19:49] of what leadership is

[00:19:51] and so this is why at an

[00:19:53] organization a level and one of the

[00:19:55] things that HR can really step into do is to

[00:19:57] define what does it mean to be

[00:19:59] a leader at our company what are the values

[00:20:01] that we're looking for and the qualities

[00:20:03] and attributes and only promote people

[00:20:05] that have those things

[00:20:07] and even if you bring in a lot of money to the business

[00:20:09] if you don't have that coaching

[00:20:11] and mentorship mindset if you don't

[00:20:13] have the mindset where

[00:20:15] you put people first and where you take care of those

[00:20:17] that are around you even though you bring in a lot

[00:20:19] of money hey you know what we'll take care

[00:20:21] of you as an individual contributor you'll get

[00:20:23] a bonus you'll get all those different types of things

[00:20:25] but you will not be put into a position where

[00:20:27] you're leading other people unless

[00:20:29] you can demonstrate that you have these qualities

[00:20:31] and that needs to be the way that we promote

[00:20:33] Jacob let's talk about that a second because it's really

[00:20:35] important we do a lot of work with companies

[00:20:37] to create career frameworks

[00:20:39] where we have leveling guides and the leveling

[00:20:41] guides have significant criteria

[00:20:43] attached to each level now many

[00:20:45] companies do a really good job of separating

[00:20:47] individual contributor tracks

[00:20:49] from managerial and executive tracks

[00:20:51] and they allow for levels

[00:20:53] to creep up into the executive levels

[00:20:55] but really never all the way up

[00:20:57] you know and I've experienced

[00:20:59] other companies and in Dwight I think

[00:21:01] we've worked on projects where we've seen other companies

[00:21:03] that do have individual

[00:21:05] contributor levels almost at the executive

[00:21:07] committee level that high

[00:21:09] while they have influence over the entire

[00:21:11] organization to your point

[00:21:13] they don't have those leadership

[00:21:15] skills and so therefore they're not

[00:21:17] in people management positions

[00:21:19] they're in thought leadership

[00:21:21] positions and they're allowed

[00:21:23] to flourish and be able

[00:21:25] to get those rewards that are necessary

[00:21:27] monetary as well as

[00:21:29] leadership in an industry

[00:21:31] and be seen as that leader

[00:21:33] in the industry without actually having to have that

[00:21:35] quote-unquote

[00:21:37] leader and that and

[00:21:39] and have that those skills because they don't

[00:21:41] typically these are people who are brilliant

[00:21:43] but to your point before

[00:21:45] they're jerks I've

[00:21:47] kind of been that in an organization

[00:21:49] and so because

[00:21:51] you know you didn't have that capability

[00:21:53] you had to be in that individual contributor

[00:21:55] track why don't most companies

[00:21:57] have that I think for a few reasons

[00:21:59] number one it doesn't go with

[00:22:01] how we typically structured companies

[00:22:03] right I mean our idea of a company is you have

[00:22:05] a hierarchy and you climb the corporate

[00:22:07] ladder and so the assumption is

[00:22:09] if you're no longer climbing that ladder if you're not getting

[00:22:11] promoted into those leadership roles

[00:22:13] then you're not climbing that corporate

[00:22:15] hierarchy and you're not good at your job

[00:22:17] and you are not a high performer

[00:22:19] and so I think we need to separate this

[00:22:21] idea of being a high performer

[00:22:23] from being somebody who's quote-unquote climbing

[00:22:25] that ladder and being responsible for others

[00:22:27] you can be an amazing individual contributor

[00:22:29] but be a really bad leader

[00:22:31] and so we need to separate those two things

[00:22:33] just because you're a great performer doesn't mean

[00:22:35] you're a great leader that's first of all

[00:22:37] second I think we need to change the way that

[00:22:39] we promote people because right now what we

[00:22:41] do is we focus on people who

[00:22:43] bring in the most amount of money to the business and we promote them

[00:22:45] instead

[00:22:47] and I'm not saying that that's that important

[00:22:49] obviously you want somebody especially in sales

[00:22:51] who's able to bring in a lot of money to the business

[00:22:53] but that shouldn't be the only criteria and the only metric

[00:22:55] that we look at so we should be looking at those

[00:22:57] other skills those other

[00:22:59] qualities and attributes as well

[00:23:01] I think a third reason we're scared of losing top talent

[00:23:03] if you have somebody who's performing

[00:23:05] very well on an individual level

[00:23:07] you don't want them to leave to one of your competitors

[00:23:09] and so what do you do you say oh oh

[00:23:11] would you stay here we're gonna we're gonna promote you

[00:23:13] yeah you're gonna lead the whole team now of five

[00:23:15] of 20 people and we

[00:23:17] forget that

[00:23:19] even an individual contributor

[00:23:21] if you put them in charge

[00:23:23] for a team of 10 people and they're not

[00:23:25] a great leader

[00:23:27] what you've just done is sabotage your team

[00:23:29] and the value of that individual

[00:23:31] contributor is now being

[00:23:33] eclipsed by the

[00:23:35] poor performance of the team

[00:23:37] that that individual contributor is now

[00:23:39] leading because they do not have the ability

[00:23:41] the skills and the qualities to

[00:23:43] lead effectively so

[00:23:45] it seems like a good short-term

[00:23:47] solution because you kept that employee

[00:23:49] but you've also hurt

[00:23:51] the broader team and the organization

[00:23:53] in the long run because the team as a whole is

[00:23:55] now performing worse

[00:23:57] and not only that but that individual contributor

[00:23:59] is now no longer an individual contributor

[00:24:01] they're not doing the job

[00:24:03] that they were so good at

[00:24:05] they're now leading other people who are doing that

[00:24:07] job so you've shot yourself in the foot

[00:24:09] twice because that top performer

[00:24:11] is no longer doing that

[00:24:13] task that made them a top performer

[00:24:15] and now you have somebody who doesn't know how to

[00:24:17] lead sabotaging the team

[00:24:19] and so you're hurting the team

[00:24:21] and the individual performer and now everything

[00:24:23] is going to go down at the same level and a lot of teams

[00:24:25] and a lot of organizations and a lot of leaders

[00:24:27] simply don't realize that they just think in

[00:24:29] terms of oh yeah so and

[00:24:31] so it's still working here we were able to keep them

[00:24:33] and that's not the right approach

[00:24:35] that makes total sense

[00:24:37] so you're polluting the pond

[00:24:39] yeah

[00:24:41] trying to keep that one fish but you're polluting the pond

[00:24:43] yep exactly

[00:24:45] so Jacob one of the things I was going to say is

[00:24:47] performance management systems aren't doing a great

[00:24:49] job of capturing that either

[00:24:51] they may be capturing

[00:24:53] certain goals they may be capturing

[00:24:55] certain metrics but they're definitely

[00:24:57] not unless they're capturing values

[00:24:59] they're not filtering that out

[00:25:01] absolutely couldn't agree more

[00:25:03] and I like the Dwight said what I was trying

[00:25:05] to say in about like five words polluting

[00:25:07] the pond

[00:25:09] one apple that ruins the entire batch

[00:25:11] that's a good quote Dwight

[00:25:13] now that we were talking I think one other

[00:25:15] reason that came to mind is just fear

[00:25:17] right we are scared to rock the boat

[00:25:19] we're scared to do things differently

[00:25:21] we are and so one of the things that I've been

[00:25:23] thinking about that I haven't shared is this idea

[00:25:25] of an establishment versus an anti-establishment

[00:25:27] leader inside of an organization so

[00:25:29] we've been very obsessed with

[00:25:31] this idea of establishment leaders

[00:25:33] leaders who are always maintaining the status

[00:25:35] quo doing things the way that they've always

[00:25:37] been done not thinking differently

[00:25:39] and we need more anti-establishment

[00:25:41] leaders who are going to come into a business

[00:25:43] and challenge convention and ask questions

[00:25:45] we're so scared to

[00:25:47] right well I was worried that we have to put out fires

[00:25:49] but sometimes we need leaders who are going to be the ones

[00:25:51] to start those fires and say wait a minute

[00:25:53] that doesn't make sense and

[00:25:55] we need more people like that the anti-

[00:25:57] establishment the anti-traditional

[00:25:59] leadership stereotype

[00:26:01] approach to just kind of break things

[00:26:03] and figure out new ways of getting things done

[00:26:05] absolutely well

[00:26:07] a lot of times those people

[00:26:09] don't get promoted they get mitigated

[00:26:11] or minimized because they're trouble makers

[00:26:13] yeah

[00:26:15] exactly and we need more of them

[00:26:17] I agree

[00:26:19] hey are you listening to this and thinking to yourself

[00:26:21] man I wish I could talk to David

[00:26:23] about this well you're in luck

[00:26:25] we have a special offer for listeners

[00:26:27] of the HR data labs podcast

[00:26:29] a free half hour call with me

[00:26:31] about any of the topics we cover

[00:26:33] on the podcast or whatever is on your mind

[00:26:35] go to salary.com

[00:26:37] forward slash HRDL

[00:26:39] consulting

[00:26:41] to schedule your free 30 minute call today

[00:26:45] Jacob let's go to the last question which is

[00:26:47] can you tell us the difference between

[00:26:49] what it's like to have vulnerability at work

[00:26:51] and vulnerability in our personal lives

[00:26:53] can you give us examples

[00:26:55] and how do you start leading with vulnerability

[00:26:57] yeah I mean the difference is kind of what we talked about

[00:26:59] at the beginning right I mean if I go to my wife

[00:27:01] for example and I say hey you know what

[00:27:03] I had a really bad day

[00:27:05] or uh you know I

[00:27:07] I did a speech or I did X Y Z

[00:27:09] and I really didn't think it

[00:27:11] went well I didn't feel like I performed

[00:27:13] well I can stop there

[00:27:15] right I don't need to

[00:27:17] there's no I don't owe her anything she

[00:27:19] doesn't owe me anything I don't work for her she doesn't work

[00:27:21] for me she's not paying my bills I'm not paying her

[00:27:23] like that dynamic isn't there it's just

[00:27:25] purely there for the relationship

[00:27:27] for the support for the comfort

[00:27:29] now I'm not saying you can have some of that

[00:27:31] inside of an organization but again inside

[00:27:33] of the company you have a different dynamic

[00:27:35] right you have people who are dependent to you

[00:27:37] and on you so if

[00:27:39] I'm an employee and I keep showing up to work every day

[00:27:41] and let's say I do

[00:27:43] have a supportive leader but just every day I'm

[00:27:45] showing up I'm having a hard time

[00:27:47] I don't know how to do this I'm not feeling great

[00:27:49] I'm going through a tough

[00:27:51] overtime if you keep doing

[00:27:53] that eventually your leader is going to look at you

[00:27:55] and they're going to say you know what

[00:27:57] maybe this isn't the best fit

[00:27:59] because it seems like you're having a hard time

[00:28:01] doing what you got hired

[00:28:03] to do and we forget

[00:28:05] that the relationship between an employee

[00:28:07] and an organization is exactly that

[00:28:09] it's a relationship it's a mutual

[00:28:11] exchange of value

[00:28:13] and at a certain point if you are not demonstrating

[00:28:15] that you are providing value to the

[00:28:17] organization to the leader that you are working with

[00:28:19] and for then

[00:28:21] you can just monthly put

[00:28:23] what use are you

[00:28:25] what value are you bringing to the team and to the

[00:28:27] business there are a hundred

[00:28:29] a thousand other people who are willing to step into

[00:28:31] that role to do the job that you had

[00:28:33] probably better than you were able to do it

[00:28:35] and so at a certain point you do need to

[00:28:37] step up to be accountable and to be

[00:28:39] responsible for what you need to do

[00:28:41] there's a difference between being vulnerable

[00:28:43] in the way in which you're defining it

[00:28:45] but being your authentic self

[00:28:47] we all know that people are being challenged

[00:28:49] whether it's their

[00:28:51] their children, their older

[00:28:53] parents, mental health

[00:28:55] issues or whatever and not

[00:28:57] being your authentic self means that

[00:28:59] you're not exactly being

[00:29:01] honest with the company either

[00:29:03] and if you're having challenges

[00:29:05] now I get balance right?

[00:29:07] You were talking about balance you weren't saying

[00:29:09] don't do that don't be completely

[00:29:11] vulnerable but also just

[00:29:13] be careful you're not exposing your whole self

[00:29:15] and by the way authenticity and vulnerability

[00:29:17] are not the same thing those are two separate

[00:29:19] two separate pieces right because you could look at

[00:29:21] somebody like a Jack Walsh or Steve Bomber

[00:29:23] they were very authentic

[00:29:25] but they were not vulnerable

[00:29:27] I mean they had no problem cursing you out

[00:29:29] throwing a chair or a computer

[00:29:31] across the room and basically

[00:29:33] looking like they wanted to punch you in the face

[00:29:35] and they were as authentic as they get

[00:29:37] but they were not vulnerable

[00:29:39] but sorry so I didn't mean to cut you off you were getting to your point about

[00:29:41] like if you were going through a tough time or something

[00:29:43] like that right? Yeah no I

[00:29:45] think you made the point quite nicely which is

[00:29:47] that there's a gigantic difference between being

[00:29:49] authentic and exposing something

[00:29:51] that you probably shouldn't be

[00:29:53] or having a good balance between

[00:29:55] your vulnerability and sharing

[00:29:57] or over sharing right?

[00:29:59] Yeah absolutely I mean at the very

[00:30:01] central piece of

[00:30:03] I have this framework called a vulnerability wheel

[00:30:05] and at the very center that is intention

[00:30:07] and if you do not have intention basically

[00:30:09] understanding why is it that I want to share

[00:30:11] or do whatever it is that I want to share or do

[00:30:13] if you don't have that intention then it all falls apart

[00:30:15] and yeah there have been lots of situations

[00:30:17] where employees

[00:30:19] where CEOs go through a tough time

[00:30:21] and that's fine and that's okay

[00:30:23] and it's okay to talk about that and to share those things

[00:30:25] but I mean even in those

[00:30:27] situations and scenarios like I remember

[00:30:29] Shelly Archambeau

[00:30:31] she's the former CEO of Price Smart

[00:30:33] and I think they have around 10 or 12,000 employees

[00:30:35] and she was telling me this story

[00:30:37] where her father recently had a stroke

[00:30:39] and this was during the pandemic

[00:30:41] and she still had to lead these team meetings

[00:30:43] while her father

[00:30:45] was in her house upstairs

[00:30:47] he recently had a stroke and she was taking care of them

[00:30:49] and also leading these team meetings

[00:30:51] and so she had to be able

[00:30:53] to figure out a way to do both

[00:30:55] now if you are going through something like that

[00:30:57] it's okay to say I need time

[00:30:59] and I think one of the biggest mistakes that people make

[00:31:01] is they assume that they don't need time

[00:31:03] and they try to do both when they realistically can't

[00:31:05] right so somebody maybe a family member

[00:31:07] passes away and they're back at work the next day

[00:31:09] and they're like what the hell are you doing here

[00:31:11] or you just had a kid

[00:31:13] and three days later you're back in the office

[00:31:15] and I think that's when we get into problems

[00:31:17] where we don't understand what our boundaries are

[00:31:19] and we don't understand that we need time

[00:31:21] and we need space to get to the level

[00:31:23] that we need to get to

[00:31:25] and that's when I think a lot of things start to crumble

[00:31:27] so if you go through a tough time

[00:31:29] it's okay to go to your leader and say

[00:31:31] hey you know what I'm really going through a tough time

[00:31:33] I don't think I can be the best that I can be here

[00:31:35] I need a few days off

[00:31:37] I need a few weeks to deal with my personal stuff

[00:31:39] that I'm doing and when I get back

[00:31:41] I'm going to be back at 100%

[00:31:43] having those conversations is okay

[00:31:45] and again what's not okay

[00:31:47] is just to show up and say

[00:31:49] I'm going through all this difficult stuff in my life

[00:31:51] but I'm still going to show up here

[00:31:53] and you know

[00:31:55] and your team is going to look at you

[00:31:57] and they're going to say for all of us to do

[00:31:59] yeah it's a tendency to do it

[00:32:01] but what happens is your work suffers

[00:32:03] your team suffers

[00:32:05] and now what you're doing

[00:32:07] is you're just trying to use vulnerability

[00:32:09] as a way to justify your poor performance

[00:32:11] now what happens you show up every day

[00:32:13] and you say hey I told you you know I'm going through this tough time

[00:32:15] and this is why my performance is low

[00:32:17] when really what you should have done

[00:32:19] is said I need time

[00:32:21] and space because I'm not going to be able

[00:32:23] to perform I'll be back

[00:32:25] when I'm you know when I'm able to be at that level

[00:32:27] and I think if you can do that

[00:32:29] you'll be doing yourself and your team a big service

[00:32:35] and I'm going to show you

[00:32:37] and I'm not even sure

[00:32:40] if the other team is going to get through this

[00:32:42] but I just want you to be able to see

[00:32:44] and get to what you're doing

[00:32:45] and see what your colleagues and your team is going to be

[00:32:47] going through

[00:32:49] and if you can også

[00:32:51] make sure you have the output

[00:32:53] of what everybody is going to say

[00:32:55] and this is a very important project

[00:32:57] and this is the first project

[00:32:59] and this will definitely be a great project

[00:33:01] and this will help you

[00:33:03] pull some very important examples for how we lead differently.

[00:33:08] And what we're going to do is in the show notes, we're also going to put links to your books

[00:33:12] too.

[00:33:13] So people want to check out your books.

[00:33:14] They can certainly do that.

[00:33:15] Yeah, that would be great.

[00:33:16] I was going to say my email is jacob at thefutureorganization.com if anybody has any questions or they want

[00:33:21] to share any stories.

[00:33:22] Then I can also mention my sub stack if people want to join there.

[00:33:25] It's greatleadership.substack.com.

[00:33:27] There you go.

[00:33:28] Well again, Jacob, thank you so much.

[00:33:30] And thank you everybody for listening.

[00:33:32] Take care and stay safe.

[00:33:34] That was the HR Data Labs podcast.

[00:33:37] If you liked the episode, please subscribe.

[00:33:39] And if you know anyone that might like to hear it, please send it their way.

[00:33:43] Thank you for joining us this week and stay tuned for our next episode.

[00:33:47] Stay safe.