Brandy Muse - Shifting from Mental Health Awareness to Mental Health Action

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_00]: The world of business is more complex than ever.

[00:00:04] [SPEAKER_00]: The world of human resources and compensation is also getting more complex.

[00:00:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the HR Data Labs podcast, your direct source for the latest trends from experts inside and outside the world of human resources.

[00:00:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Listen, as we explore the impact that compensation strategy, data, and people analytics can have on your organization.

[00:00:25] [SPEAKER_00]: This podcast is sponsored by Salary.com, your source for data, technology and consulting for compensation and beyond.

[00:00:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, here are your hosts, David Turetsky and Dwight Brown.

[00:00:38] [SPEAKER_04]: Hello and welcome to the HR Data Labs podcast.

[00:00:41] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm your host, David Turetsky, alongside my friend, co-host partner, colleague at Salary.com, Dwight Brown.

[00:00:48] [SPEAKER_04]: Dwight, how are you today?

[00:00:50] [SPEAKER_04]: David Turetsky, I am doing well today. How are you doing today?

[00:00:53] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm okay. And one of the things that we're going to talk about today is what we mean by that statement.

[00:01:01] [SPEAKER_04]: So, what do we mean by how are you doing? And what does it mean when you say, I'm okay?

[00:01:07] [SPEAKER_04]: And we'll get into that in a moment, but first, we want to introduce our wonderful guest, Brandy Muse. How are you Brandy?

[00:01:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm doing quite well. Glad to be here.

[00:01:16] [SPEAKER_04]: And we're going to unpack what quite well means as well, I'm sure.

[00:01:21] [SPEAKER_04]: But first, before we get started, Brandy, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself?

[00:01:26] [SPEAKER_01]: So hi, I'm Brandy Muse. I'm actually, I'm learning experience designer for children's hospital Colorado.

[00:01:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm also a consultant and a designer. We are my company, Muse Alex D.

[00:01:38] [SPEAKER_01]: I have masters in organizational leadership from seeing Boulder and after being a teacher for a while, I focused in on business consulting and learning and development.

[00:01:48] [SPEAKER_01]: But in my former life, I spent the good part of 16 years at home with a husband with some children.

[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And during a lot of those years, I was not doing fine.

[00:01:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And my experience then actually sparked a really deep passion for mental health treatment and awareness.

[00:02:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's really greatly informed my studies moving forward and my career path as well.

[00:02:10] [SPEAKER_01]: So now what I do is advocate for mental health awareness and resources by building corporate trainings, doing some business consulting and sharing my story and insights on platforms like this one.

[00:02:22] [SPEAKER_04]: Awesome. Well, before we get going on our topic today, what's one fun thing that no one knows about Brandy?

[00:02:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I don't think there's anything that no one knows about me. But what most of you don't know.

[00:02:34] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, can go up. That's what you're saying.

[00:02:36] [SPEAKER_01]: But I'm sure there's something you don't know. I can actually write backwards. I can do mirror right.

[00:02:41] [SPEAKER_01]: So if I write something and you hold it from your, it looks perfect. You can do it in cursive or in trend.

[00:02:46] [SPEAKER_01]: I was really bored in middle school. So it's not my self how to do that.

[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_03]: I was going to ask is that something that just naturally happened or you just developed that as a skill.

[00:02:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I chose to develop it, but I don't know why it's a stage for the fact that I just did not much else to do when I was in junior high.

[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_01]: So I decided to learn and it was easy for me.

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm just picturing that thought coming up. Hey, I think I learned to write backwards today.

[00:03:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, dude, she's in class. She's bored. She's got a power to do for you know other people doodle.

[00:03:21] [SPEAKER_04]: Brandy made use of it and now are you, you know, seconded to the CIA to like make secret messages for first buys or

[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, something like that. I mean, it doesn't actually come in handy occasion. You know, like if someone needs to write something on it.

[00:03:39] [SPEAKER_01]: When, though, and you have to see it from the other side, it's actually pretty cool on on the rare occasion where my talent comes in handy.

[00:03:46] [SPEAKER_04]: There you go. Well, so our topic for today was going to be leveraging L&D for organizational sustainability and growth.

[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_04]: But along the way, what happened was a quick story while we're giving you the topic.

[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_04]: I think one day, one of us, it made me had said, I don't think I'm in the mental space today.

[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_04]: I'll try this. Yeah, I think it's true. I think it was all through. You're right. And so one of the things that we realized is maybe it's better instead of talking about the L&D, which will probably bring you back brandy and talk about that other topic.

[00:04:22] [SPEAKER_04]: But we've been talking a lot about how do you bring your authentic self to work and one of the ways in which you have to be able to be cognizant of is

[00:04:33] [SPEAKER_04]: how am I feeling today? And as I said at the beginning of the podcast, all of us ask, how are you doing?

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_04]: But I don't know necessarily for ready to get the response that we normally do. So today we're going to be talking about moving from mental health awareness to mental health action,

[00:04:48] [SPEAKER_04]: both at home and at work and beginning with brandy's personal story of her family's mental attorney.

[00:04:53] [SPEAKER_04]: And the disclaimer that we wanted to put on today's program is we are going to be talking about potentially triggering conversations around suicide, self-harmon, potentially devil into domestic violence discussions.

[00:05:08] [SPEAKER_04]: So if that might be something that might trigger you please, we won't take offense if you don't listen to the rest of the podcast, but we want to make sure you're aware of that.

[00:05:24] [SPEAKER_04]: So brandy our first question is, can you give us a little bit about the work you do how you got here and how mental health has become really one of your key passions in life?

[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah so as I said, I'm learning experience designer which basically means I assess this, this means that I find knowledge gaps in a can build training.

[00:05:44] [SPEAKER_01]: I've already worked with it. It's there's a knowledge gap that requires training, but formerly I was a teacher, I was with the family and I had a husband and kids.

[00:05:55] [SPEAKER_01]: So my husband, Eli, worked mainly with the military in the government for a whole lot of years and was also very mentally ill for a whole lot of years.

[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_01]: This was sort of our life from the time we were kind of children, we got married to 18. So it's kind of all we knew in our marriage and so it unfortunately was a bit normal and a bit miserable for all of us.

[00:06:18] [SPEAKER_01]: But work never knew like his coworkers, his supervisors, there was just really no awareness of his mental illness at work.

[00:06:30] [SPEAKER_01]: It actually didn't hinder him from going to work, worked from doing his job well a great deal of the time.

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And so in some ways it's great you can do that, but it also created this huge disconnect between our his work life and then our home life and our community life. It was very isolating.

[00:06:47] [SPEAKER_01]: And unfortunately while he could kind of hold us together at work, it ended up being really abusive at home. There was a lot of emotional and verbal abuse for a whole years. It's very, very difficult.

[00:06:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And so we had this sort of carbon to this and it's going on. And he never, I mean it just just multiple times hey can you meet them how to get some help and I think you know he was maybe afraid at that time to do so but I know there was also a big concern with work.

[00:07:13] [SPEAKER_01]: He would tell me that I can't do that because it's like work. I wasn't done all day, where are they going to change you know because that was for his job use a small arms instructor and right I knew him and he knew him and I'm still confident like he that would not have them problem.

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_01]: But he is he was still concerned about that it would be seen as a black mark on his record and maybe results in giving discharge or something like that.

[00:07:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Brandy what what are we talking about time frames what years are we talking about for that so we married 99 and then he joined the military in I think the following year in 2000.

[00:07:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And so during between the year 2000 to the year, I think around 2014 actually first he was military and then he left the military but did government work and did contracting work and it all kind of felt the same.

[00:08:05] [SPEAKER_01]: But like we're dealing with the same entity in the culture there, well there's some great people there and really wasn't the kind of culture that you want to go and say hey, we need help even though there was some progress there and we're starting to have some awareness even in the military of hey this is important especially with PTSD and come back trauma and things like that.

[00:08:24] [SPEAKER_01]: That wasn't really his issue wasn't so much of a trauma it was more things that had happened previous to that genetic things just consistent high control.

[00:08:35] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm sorry they didn't do any when he joined they didn't do any testing for things like that to make sure that you know he's going to be working with guns that.

[00:08:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Actually no actually no there may have been I think since he did work with special forces for quite a bit of the time.

[00:08:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I think there were some light touch preliminary things but I don't think there was a lot of official let's bring you in and give you a psych evil.

[00:09:00] [SPEAKER_01]: He didn't have to do this sort of work or they would really deliberately clamped down on that or really assess that because there are definitely jobs like that,

[00:09:09] [SPEAKER_01]: but even though he was around that's all the millions of special forces and was adjacent to some important missions and things like that it was never something that she was directly involved in a way where she would need a psychiatric evaluation.

[00:09:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think if he had the opportunity to do that, he would shy away from me because he knew it may not be favorable for him.

[00:09:29] [SPEAKER_04]: Even if it was mandatory.

[00:09:31] [SPEAKER_01]: If it was mandatory he would but nothing was ever mandatory as far as let's go get you psychiatric leave.

[00:09:36] [SPEAKER_01]: So I get to be evaluated and then also he didn't have something that was super diagnosable that was very easy to pinpoint.

[00:09:46] [SPEAKER_01]: He was not schizophrenic he was not bipolar there are some things that are just more easily identifiable when it did come out of work we did have some sort of issue at work.

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_01]: It was it did happen throughout those 15 16 years he did almost get discharged once almost got fired once and then actually did get fired once and it was related to his mental health but no one saw that way they saw it as you're being in subordinate.

[00:10:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Right or you have an anger problem but no one ever stepped up and said hey can do anything healthier.

[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_01]: So unfortunately that was the reality.

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_03]: And that's the thing about mental health is that oftentimes it can be hidden for periods of time and different contexts.

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_03]: At least to some extent you know I think that's part of the part of the mental illness is being able to be a little bit of a community and some people you know there's mental illness is so severe that they just don't have the capacity to have that sort of property.

[00:10:51] [SPEAKER_03]: But a lot of people do and the mental illness is still very real.

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Right yeah and it's sad that when you can hide it you do you know it's not something that right usually bring into especially a military environment and have it be okay or understood.

[00:11:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Because in my husband's case he could do his job very well the danger wasn't in being violent.

[00:11:16] [SPEAKER_01]: The danger was in other places and it came out.

[00:11:20] [SPEAKER_04]: I think one of the things that we're dealing with today when it comes to this exact issue is workplace violence is more prevalent because those things which now they're less taboo to discuss.

[00:11:37] [SPEAKER_04]: Sometimes as you say because they're so hidden or because they're undiagnocable we don't have the.

[00:11:45] [SPEAKER_04]: I guess you could say before the to to step up and ask those people.

[00:11:51] [SPEAKER_04]: Is there something I can do to help you is there's something that we can suggest.

[00:11:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Can we can you know.

[00:11:58] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm talking about is HR professionals as well as leaders yes to be able to see something and then say something.

[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_04]: Whether it's to the person or to our HR team.

[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_04]: In order to head off what could be something rather dramatic in someone.

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah I totally agree that simply don't have the right kind of training for leadership to be able to not only recognize that there's one fatherly to something like that.

[00:12:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And our business structures and cultures don't feel either as we we have to sort of grab this whole mental health intervention thing to a structure that is really affected that handling mental health very well.

[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think we do struggle.

[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_01]: So military life was difficult for that reason but then he left that and went up the Anastand for a year and came back and even whenever you have.

[00:12:49] [SPEAKER_01]: And while adjusted healthy family it can be really difficult to have somebody who's in bond for your comeback and so he had a really hard time with that and so the following.

[00:13:00] [SPEAKER_01]: About 2014 to 2016 more super super off this mental health deteriorated pretty badly.

[00:13:06] [SPEAKER_01]: He actually started to go in and out of work you get a job and then quit and then get a job and quit because it's not the mental health pressures and then mounting financial pressures because if that still feeling like.

[00:13:17] [SPEAKER_01]: You couldn't really address his mental health and then finally they'll be got a great job and of 2015.

[00:13:24] [SPEAKER_01]: That only lasted a couple months though because while I hope that would be a stabilizing force for us things I got so bad that I had said he something really needs to change or a thing they need to change.

[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And we're trying to deal with that.

[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_01]: I had stepped out and actually decided to stay with a friend for a little bit and a few days into that he called me up and he decided wanted to and his life so saying goodbye.

[00:13:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And I tried to talk him down from that but unfortunately that it more and he died by suicide in January of 2016.

[00:14:00] [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah understand about through our world upside down for the kids and I.

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's really sad that he wasn't able to get that help that he needed and I don't think it's the fault of his work face.

[00:14:13] [SPEAKER_01]: But I do think what would have helped us more along the way there's 16 years of having an mental illness if he felt.

[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Babel and saves and supported in the ad journey.

[00:14:24] [SPEAKER_04]: I think all of us have had people in our lives who have discussed this or.

[00:14:31] [SPEAKER_04]: Who had thought about it and reached out for help.

[00:14:35] [SPEAKER_04]: But there's so many who don't and my father's best friend.

[00:14:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Probably in his 50s passed away by suicide and it was in a small town in Obsene, New York and he was a pillar of the community.

[00:14:51] [SPEAKER_04]: And everybody kind of said how could he do this he has a beautiful wife he's got great great kids there in college.

[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_04]: One's about to graduate how could he do this instead of asking the question of what could we have done or what could he have done or you know how did the system or how.

[00:15:11] [SPEAKER_04]: How did the people around him not see it.

[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_04]: And so there was a lot of misunderstanding and this is again, this is probably back in the.

[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_04]: The 90s so it was a different time.

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, but I think each of us has our own story about how this this challenges us.

[00:15:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Sure, yeah, unfortunately I feel most of us can point to situation where we've been effective.

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I suicide.

[00:15:37] [SPEAKER_01]: What's encouraging those that we're much more able to talk about it.

[00:15:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think it helps us find support to pick up the pieces and help each other and we've gotten a greater understanding of what people are going through when the end of that space.

[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's not so much people being self it really it's more about the level of pain inside of them is so great that it crowds everything else out and the the trick is to try to stay out of that space.

[00:16:12] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like you're in a black box and you can't get out and there's no other option.

[00:16:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's what it feels like when you're in that space.

[00:16:22] [SPEAKER_01]: But if you're able to keep yourself from getting a nab box, that will that will be what prevents suicide more than anything to have those interventions with that work at home and not just have awareness but have action.

[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_01]: That will help us stay out of that space.

[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_03]: There's so much stigma that goes with mental health issues mental illness and you know you see it over and over again where that stigma ends up being the blood that keeps people from getting the help they need.

[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think the other I think the other thing to acknowledge is that when you do have mental illness or you are going through a mental health issue oftentimes the last one to know is you.

[00:17:13] [SPEAKER_03]: And so it also begs the question of how do you how do you best get somebody help when they can't see it themselves or at least don't they can't acknowledge it, you know and I think that people have been harassing wrestling with that for years.

[00:17:37] [SPEAKER_03]: And so you take that to the workplace and how do we support people in the workplace, how do we help people to be able to see what we're seeing how to really help them to get the help to pay need.

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know the answer to that to try to enter.

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, some things don't have good answers, you know, so we can't just have a patty answer for everything but I also think that there are a lot of things we can do that or not to eat.

[00:18:02] [SPEAKER_01]: So mental health awareness is something that's big now, I'm really grateful for that and talk about all the time in regular life and in the workplace.

[00:18:12] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think our awareness is really loud but our struggles are staying quiet.

[00:18:17] [SPEAKER_01]: I think when it comes to us wanting to help others we have a real desire to do that but when it's us ourselves, but I have a problem that's when the rubber really needs to road that's when you will need to have psychological safety and our work place or we have to feel like we're going to be heard or like we're not going to be seen as a burden.

[00:18:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's just a lot harder than when it's us and we mean bridges that are going to connect that awareness and structures in place that will help us get from.

[00:18:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we're a wear mental health and you should always get help to be able to actually take action.

[00:18:55] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that the structure and the culture in our business business landscape right now is still really geared towards.

[00:19:03] [SPEAKER_01]: It's still really geared towards people having to put their selves aside to get the task done.

[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Like we know that mental health is important but instead of changing our structure we just kind of put benefits on top of it, you know.

[00:19:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Right right.

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_01]: So we have these benefits that are placed on top of these structures that act more as a band aid.

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_01]: So if we have reasonably say I really appreciate, really, frankly, but whenever I saw that I found out that most companies have this sort of standard 40 hours frequently.

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_01]: I honestly, I had to laugh.

[00:19:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I was like are you kidding?

[00:19:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Like who made this rule and they've ever lost anyone, you know, because that is just really not enough.

[00:19:49] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think it would be great if we didn't have to put a static number on it and say well here is 40 hours.

[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And instead, have it be something that's situational.

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think we can just do better than that anyway, like we have parental leave that extends well beyond that.

[00:20:04] [SPEAKER_01]: So I know that we can do better with our policies.

[00:20:08] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think if we've trained leaders to recognize different situations, what's needed in different situations.

[00:20:15] [SPEAKER_01]: You have to engage the mental health and the people on the team, then they be able to say, okay, maybe you need more than 40 hours of recovery.

[00:20:25] [SPEAKER_01]: But some people may not need any of that or only need a portion of that.

[00:20:29] [SPEAKER_01]: These things are highly situational, we can't just turn it into the mechanistic structure of having this machine of a business where the priority of getting tasks done is.

[00:20:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And productivity is greater than the mental health of our people.

[00:20:47] [SPEAKER_04]: I think when it comes to things like, very mentally, those are always as a leader.

[00:20:52] [SPEAKER_04]: I see those always as guidelines.

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_04]: I've never treated them as a rule and I've always given whatever a person needs in terms of space and time.

[00:21:03] [SPEAKER_04]: They're not going to heal right away, certainly not within 40 hours, but there's also no time frame available to us to be able to give them.

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_04]: And so I've always told people take what you need and don't feel bad about it.

[00:21:18] [SPEAKER_04]: Don't worry about us, don't put extra stress on you.

[00:21:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly, it's nice and we're able to do that, you know?

[00:21:24] [SPEAKER_01]: But we really need to examine our structure to see is that is it's safe for people to reveal that or ask for that and is it possible?

[00:21:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Like are they already so overlooked and have too many tasks that, you know, they're not able to even take time for therapy much less time off, you know?

[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, but we've talked about that brandy on this podcast at least a few times of there's got to be a difference between W and L.

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_04]: And L isn't just what's left over from W out of 24 hours, meaning your work time versus your leisure time.

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_04]: It's not a normal equation, it's not easy, it's not linear certainly.

[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_04]: And so, especially in the way in which we work today where your phone's always with you and you could take your email or whatever,

[00:22:08] [SPEAKER_04]: especially for more professional jobs or some support jobs that can be outside the office.

[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Having that time to separate yourself and literally separate yourself turn your phone off, turn your access off.

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it's not easy and yeah, we all stressed about that but in these circumstances you've got to right I mean you've just got to be able to separate the two things.

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely like times like breathe from mental health crises really highlight the needs for that but that need is actually there all the time.

[00:22:37] [SPEAKER_01]: We need to be able to turn off and be human apart from what and have that separation.

[00:22:44] [SPEAKER_01]: But I also think that companies and work, placing you to realize like if we're going to ask people to bring their real selves to more.

[00:22:53] [SPEAKER_01]: We need to understand that they are and body creatures that have mental health out work.

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_01]: I think what we tend to be because of it would be the core structure in business and we'll separate people into these parts like here's your work self.

[00:23:08] [SPEAKER_01]: And oh you need mental health benefits here's the mental health benefits for your home self.

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_01]: You know because we can't integrate that with work, you know how to do that when really for able to change like reverse that lens and kind of put people and pull humans first.

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Then we can find ways to honor the fact they have mental health issues within their workplace and during that data is a hell of a long method that their present at work.

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And integrate some of those benefits into the workplace I think that would be that would be this one thing to do.

[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Like what you hear so far make sure you never miss a show by clicking subscribe.

[00:23:47] [SPEAKER_00]: This podcast is made possible by salary.com now back to the show.

[00:23:53] [SPEAKER_04]: So let's get to that as part of the second question.

[00:23:57] [SPEAKER_04]: So how do you see that happening in the workplace? How do you see us approaching this differently now where you can look at mental health and the context of work and say,

[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, you gotta take some time, you know it's not like.

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_04]: And I'm not talking about having a room where you can go and sit in silence and kind of collect yourself.

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_04]: Although we've seen that happen at some next generation work centers.

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_04]: What's the answer? How do you bring your authentic self to work and be able to have time to be a human at work?

[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think the real answer is that it's a long thing and it involves kind of turning the antenna of the way you see business and the culture that we happen business.

[00:24:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Right. I think ideally that our structures would be more flexible, you know flexible enough to honor and move with what people actually need.

[00:24:54] [SPEAKER_01]: And part of that I think could be and this is actually something that's happening on the ground at a lot of places bringing in therapists and treatment modalities on site for people who are on site.

[00:25:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And to for people to go to at any time and these people walking around the building, it just normalizes mental health.

[00:25:12] [SPEAKER_01]: It shows everybody that the company values this beyond just thinking about the benefits of the end aid and wants them to really integrate good mental health within the tasks at work because if we just give them a benefit, then they have to go back to a toxic workplace.

[00:25:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Kind of like what could it be that? But I think to that having having therapists on site could help with not just individual therapies separate from work and for some of them going talk about work, just great.

[00:25:40] [SPEAKER_01]: But also let's bring a therapist in on the team. Let's bring into a difficult situation or into some co-workers that are having issues or if there's a supervisor that needs help.

[00:25:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that we can integrate it that way while having appropriate boundaries of course to make sure there's confidentiality and all of that.

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_01]: That would be something we need to learn today well, but that would I think that would be a huge game changer.

[00:26:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you said something about next generation workplaces with this funny because having therapists and treatment modalities on site.

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_01]: It just reminds me of during the shows for track next generation. Did you ever see that?

[00:26:17] [SPEAKER_01]: I love that show. This is my favorite show as a kid. I absolutely love deanna Troy. Like I wanted to be her when I grew up.

[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_01]: She was not exactly only role model. I could point to as a child and say, I want to be that.

[00:26:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And because she was a counselor, she's a therapist and she's in the middle of the workplace like walking around.

[00:26:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I think people if they want to talk, you know, whether fighting aliens, you know, and so we're along the way from that obviously we're not in a cashless society with a holiday or anything like that.

[00:26:44] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, wouldn't be nice. But she was also she's in the middle of the action making decisions and she was with the captain and it was just really cool to see how that was integrated into what I now see as a work situation.

[00:26:58] [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, we're not we're not very yet, but I think that there are still some really good things we can do right now.

[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_04]: So the great example of exactly where I was going to go with my comment Randy, which is that she was an empath.

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yes.

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_04]: She was also their HR person. Yes. She was literally doing their HR person. So what we've asked people to do in HR is to literally be an off the record counselor like the Anna Troy and that's not there but that's not their skill set nor is it the reality of what they should have been doing or should be doing.

[00:27:35] [SPEAKER_04]: If this is for all of your HR generalists out there, you are not the mental health professional in your work unless you actually are certified mental health professional.

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_04]: And that's your job.

[00:27:48] [SPEAKER_04]: You should not be listening to people's problems being able to deal with their mental health issues.

[00:27:55] [SPEAKER_04]: That is not your job.

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_04]: What your talk map Randy is a real mental health professional.

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.

[00:28:01] [SPEAKER_04]: It comes on site who listens to people in a hip-up environment, right, in a regulatory regulatory within the rules I mean and doing what's best for both the employee and the employer, which is to listen and support and then make probably make recommendations to the employee, right?

[00:28:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, you can give a good point.

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Each of our professionals are not counselors and we have to have great boundaries, hip-up would apply all of that.

[00:28:30] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think you don't even have the effect that you need to say that.

[00:28:32] [SPEAKER_01]: She's that they're like, you need for such a thing. You know what I mean?

[00:28:35] [SPEAKER_01]: They're really like, you need for that.

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think we really can look at how that direction is.

[00:28:39] [SPEAKER_04]: There always was though, Randy.

[00:28:41] [SPEAKER_04]: I remember back to when I was starting working in the 80s and if I had a problem, I went to the HR person and I'd sit down on their office and they'd say,

[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_04]: David, what's going on?

[00:28:53] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, like, I guess I'm going into the psychiatrist's office and I'm sitting on this couch and he goes,

[00:28:58] [SPEAKER_04]: Tell me what's going on. Tell me how you're feeling right now.

[00:29:02] [SPEAKER_04]: You're not my psychiatrist. You're not my psychologist.

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm not sitting. I'm not going to lay down in your couch.

[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_04]: But I was a 23 year old kid coming out of college.

[00:29:12] [SPEAKER_04]: I was really depressed because I had gotten, you know, I'd been living with, you know, my friends at my college fraternity and then,

[00:29:21] [SPEAKER_04]: I graduated and they were all gone. And so I was a little depressed from that, and then I got into a really stressful work environment.

[00:29:29] [SPEAKER_04]: So of course I'm going to be depressed.

[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_04]: But I mean, that's the reason why this is so important is it's not your HR person and it's not your boss.

[00:29:39] [SPEAKER_04]: You're talking about somebody completely different.

[00:29:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and what an awkward position to be in too.

[00:29:44] [SPEAKER_01]: You're in front of an HR person who works for the company.

[00:29:46] [SPEAKER_01]: They don't work for you. And it's hard to know what can you even say in that situation. How safe is it?

[00:29:53] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, I think that really brings up a good, a good and very important point.

[00:29:58] [SPEAKER_03]: And that's the psychological safety aspect of things.

[00:30:00] [SPEAKER_03]: And where you can go to get psychological safety at work.

[00:30:05] [SPEAKER_03]: And honestly, having been multiple different work environments, there are a lot of them where there is no psychological safety.

[00:30:13] [SPEAKER_03]: There's you just, you've got no outlet except for maybe something outside of work.

[00:30:24] [SPEAKER_03]: And even even your HR person, they may have a say in hiring and firing decisions.

[00:30:29] [SPEAKER_03]: And they may have to say that something that they heard, you tell them when they asked you how are you feeling all of a sudden that's going to be used against you.

[00:30:38] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's a tough balance to strike and how, you know, I think one of the things that organizations have to wrestle with and hit head on is how do we create that saves me.

[00:30:50] [SPEAKER_03]: It's there. How do we give people a sense of psychological safety to be themselves and to also be able to bring their mental health issues toward and be supported in that.

[00:31:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, for sure. I think that kind of place this part is just engaging the state of the mental health organization.

[00:31:12] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, how many forms do you know that actually will take the time to truly survey and honestly what.

[00:31:19] [SPEAKER_01]: What you need your artwork and then to prove it with the right benefits to listen, you know.

[00:31:24] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, we do have ERGs right and the employee resource groups have been put in place to listen to people.

[00:31:33] [SPEAKER_04]: And to provide anonymous feedback in a way of being able to be a safe space for people, especially the mental health of the ERGs, right?

[00:31:42] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, let's just have a word, right?

[00:31:44] [SPEAKER_01]: It is definitely stuck forward where I'm working right now, children's hospital and forado are mental health benefits on each other's groups are actually beyond anything I've ever seen.

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a stellar leading event to pass the job which we really need to be because when I pull out a staff taking care of really sick kids all day every day.

[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And so we have a really really robust mental health resources but our resource group, I'm part of that.

[00:32:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And they are fantastic. I'm being story about that. I when I first joined first went to this resource group.

[00:32:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I gave a little presentation on who I am, why I'm here shared a little of the story that I shared with you.

[00:32:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I got the end of it. The person who the company has hired to make sure that these groups are effective.

[00:32:29] [SPEAKER_01]: She asked me she said, what can we do for people like you who are going through something like this?

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_01]: What resources do you need? What are we missing? What can we do better?

[00:32:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's only a way. We would have great question and then to be heard, not just to know that other people are going to get resources that they might mean because of what I say.

[00:32:51] [SPEAKER_01]: With that from my story, this hurt in listen to somebody who wants to allow me to have a better work experience because of that.

[00:32:59] [SPEAKER_04]: That engagement right there.

[00:33:01] [SPEAKER_04]: That interaction probably made you, if not an employee for life at least it strengthened that bond so much.

[00:33:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, let's show me that I was a value as a person above what I was doing back at job.

[00:33:19] [SPEAKER_04]: Hey, are you listening to this and thinking to yourself, man, I wish I could talk to David about this. Well, you're in luck.

[00:33:24] [SPEAKER_04]: We have a special offer for listeners of the HR data-lapse podcast.

[00:33:29] [SPEAKER_04]: A free hour call with me about any of the topics we cover on the podcast or whatever is on your mind.

[00:33:36] [SPEAKER_04]: Go to salary.com forward slash HRDL consulting to schedule your free 30 minute call today.

[00:33:45] [SPEAKER_04]: So, Brandy, how do we recognize and change what might seem like a really hard thing?

[00:33:51] [SPEAKER_04]: Change cultural norms around mental health with respect to work. How do we make progress?

[00:33:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, like I said, it's a long game. It's kind of like turning the titanium right.

[00:34:01] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think we can each start by changing our own ideas of where we find our worth.

[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_01]: What work does for? Because in American culture, not a lot of cultures.

[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Our idea of this intricately tied with our ability to make money and that determines our value.

[00:34:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And we all know that that's not true, but we equate more and more socialists work.

[00:34:28] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's so in Brandy, culture. So my kids, only have three kids and all of them have their own special mental health issues for a long time.

[00:34:37] [SPEAKER_01]: We've spent a long time trying to get out of the woods from what's happening on the other way.

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And they have their own inherent struggles. They have their own genetic and otherwise mental health issues.

[00:34:49] [SPEAKER_01]: And because of that, they can't work normal jobs actually none of them are currently full sporting themselves. And all adults at this point technically.

[00:34:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Two of them will be with me and my daughter Emily feels so bad about that. She feels like a woman burden and she feels kind of useless.

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And I have to remind her, hey, you guys, we really get on worth.

[00:35:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Is it being able to go to a job consistently 40 hours a week and do something for a company? Is that really what gives us value?

[00:35:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Because now she's able to bring so much light to my life.

[00:35:23] [SPEAKER_01]: But a few years ago, she had issues with, self-harm. She had her own suicide types.

[00:35:31] [SPEAKER_01]: She was addicted to meth. She had an eating disorder. She was, there was a lot of self-harm.

[00:35:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And I look at her now and she is free from all of that for over a year.

[00:35:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And I feel like she has climbed a higher mountain than most of us will ever have to face.

[00:35:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And she feels bad because she can't hold the job at a pizza class. You know, she feels worthless because of that.

[00:36:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that really the trace of pretty messed up beliefs in our culture that says we're not worth much if we can't make money, but we can't support ourselves.

[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that if we can change that lens, yeah, that will be a good start. Just it's stuff like an exam and the British think your horse is because it's really not, it's really not in how much we can sacrifice our mental health on the altars, the American productivity.

[00:36:29] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, like that's not where it's at.

[00:36:33] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, there's a lot of things broken in our society, one of which is the way in which we look at as you say and value people's contribution beyond just their job and beyond just their pay.

[00:36:46] [SPEAKER_04]: Unfortunately, in the political and social environment, we're in, you know, there's a lot of rhetoric that goes around about well, you know, they have problems and therefore I have to pay for it.

[00:36:58] [SPEAKER_04]: Which is obviously horse crap, but it also betrays the fact that everybody struggles with something.

[00:37:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:37:06] [SPEAKER_04]: Whether it's your child, my child, I have children who have those mental challenges as well.

[00:37:13] [SPEAKER_04]: I have mental challenges as well. Let's not cast, you know, test dispersions here, everybody has them, but we need to stop pointing fingers and poking a people and start wrapping our arms around them and realizing that everybody has inherent value.

[00:37:32] [SPEAKER_04]: And just because you're not the CEO of a company doesn't mean you're not worth something.

[00:37:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Right, so.

[00:37:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, who says that being the CEO is the pinnacle? When did we decide that, you know?

[00:37:43] [SPEAKER_04]: I think the CEO said that.

[00:37:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think things like that.

[00:37:47] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:37:48] [SPEAKER_01]: But why do we believe them?

[00:37:50] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, everybody envies the person at the top because they believe that once you get there, you've made it and you don't have to worry anymore about stuff.

[00:38:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:38:00] [SPEAKER_04]: When it doesn't matter what altitude you're at, the errors, then are actually at the top then it is down down near the bottom.

[00:38:09] [SPEAKER_04]: So, you know, we always see grasses never as always greener and never really is.

[00:38:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[00:38:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Or like at the end of life, it's more or more if having relationships with so much more important than what we accomplished for a face to this company.

[00:38:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, we still kind of follow that path subconsciously because it's just so in-ring.

[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think like those that can't get past like you're saying, do I?

[00:38:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Some people can't hide their mental illness or they can't manage that and go to work at the same time.

[00:38:41] [SPEAKER_01]: That's just the reality society has always all those people.

[00:38:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And as you've ever had the privilege of caring for someone disabled like that, you realize what kind of then inherent and the easing light can shine from people.

[00:38:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Like that when they don't have anything else to offer, it's just really interesting paradox.

[00:38:59] [SPEAKER_01]: I have the great privilege of caring for my son who's autistic.

[00:39:03] [SPEAKER_01]: He's disabled in a way where he won't ever have an old job and I've learned so much about myself and about human rights by being able to reason by being able to see what is really valuable when it comes to human is like your borne was that.

[00:39:23] [SPEAKER_01]: So if you can't go to work, or if you're worried about getting all the tasks done or not able to climb a ladder, that has absolutely nothing to do with what you can contribute to society.

[00:39:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Because even people who we don't have anything contribute, it's like they are some of those profoundly precious people because you're born with worse.

[00:39:46] [SPEAKER_01]: No, no, take that away from you.

[00:39:57] [SPEAKER_04]: I want to end it on that note because Brandy, I don't think anybody could say it better and I appreciate you being here.

[00:40:04] [SPEAKER_04]: Dwight, you know, I'm sure you do do do do do do do do.

[00:40:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, big time.

[00:40:10] [SPEAKER_03]: I was really excited for this topic.

[00:40:12] [SPEAKER_03]: I wanted it was coming out and would love to be able to continue talking about this because I think we need the continued talking about this.

[00:40:21] [SPEAKER_03]: The reality and all of our workplaces and with all of our friends and family, none of us is untouched by mental health issues and somewhere in other.

[00:40:34] [SPEAKER_03]: So appreciate you being here with us Brandy and especially appreciate your sharing your story with us because it really helps to bring things in a very helpful way.

[00:40:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so glad I get to have this conversation with you. Thanks for having me on.

[00:40:53] [SPEAKER_04]: It's totally our pleasure and again, I want to echo Dwight's sentiments.

[00:40:57] [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you for being brave and using your stories as a way to inspire people to be able to understand how this affects not just you but them as well.

[00:41:08] [SPEAKER_04]: We're going to have you back again and maybe we'll talk about learning and development.

[00:41:15] [SPEAKER_04]: But in the meantime, thank you so much really appreciate you being here.

[00:41:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely, thanks so much for having me here.

[00:41:21] [SPEAKER_04]: And thank you all for listening. Take care and please stay safe.

[00:41:25] [SPEAKER_00]: That was the HR Data Labs podcast.

[00:41:28] [SPEAKER_00]: If you liked the episode, please subscribe.

[00:41:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And if you know anyone that might like to hear it, please send it their way.

[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for joining us this week and stay tuned for our next episode. Stay safe.