Becky Evan - How White DEI Professionals Can Decenter Whiteness

[00:00:02] Here's an experiment for you. Take passionate experts in human resource technology. Invite

[00:00:08] cross-industry experts from inside and outside HR. Mix in what's happening in people analytics

[00:00:14] today. Give them the technology to connect, hit record, pour their discussions into a beaker.

[00:00:21] Mix thoroughly and voila! You get the HR Data Labs podcast where we explore the impact of data

[00:00:28] and analytics to your business. We may get passionate, and even irreverent, but count on each episode

[00:00:35] challenging and enhancing your understanding of the way people data can be used to solve real

[00:00:40] world problems. Now, here's your host, David Turetsky. Hello and welcome to the HR Data Labs podcast.

[00:00:48] I'm your host, David Turetsky, alongside my friend, trusty co-host and colleague from

[00:00:53] salary.com Dwight Brown. Dwight, how are you? I'm good. How are you doing, David? I'm good.

[00:00:58] Hey Dwight, I heard a rumor that you got something brand new. We saw for the first time today.

[00:01:05] It was like Christmas last night when I picked it up. I am the new owner of a pair of the

[00:01:13] Apple Vision Pro VR goggles or I think they're calling them AR goggles at this point.

[00:01:20] Jealous. Yeah, they are crazy cool. And our guest for today, Becky Yvonne, had actually seen them.

[00:01:28] We actually had given a Dwight had given a demonstration of them. Becky, what did you

[00:01:33] think about Dwight's new Christmas present? Oh, I thought it was really cool. Thank you for

[00:01:38] sharing it with us. It was also awesome just to see how lifelike the avatar was when you

[00:01:45] popped into the meeting. So I'm excited to see where this technology takes us.

[00:01:52] Blew us away, Dwight. Yeah, totally. There's so much potential with this and

[00:01:58] a lot of fun. A lot of fun. Takes you to a totally different world. But it was fun being able to

[00:02:04] try them on teams. And like you said, the avatar and a lot of craziness.

[00:02:10] So we're going to put a picture of that in the show notes so you can see how actual crazy cool

[00:02:16] this thing is. And you're going to be like, well, isn't that just a picture of Dwight from 10 years

[00:02:19] ago? No, that's Dwight today. See, that's what I love most about it is that it made me younger.

[00:02:27] Dude, your spirit is already younger. But we're not talking about that today. We're

[00:02:31] going to be talking with Becky. So Becky, tell us a little bit about yourself and how

[00:02:34] you got to today. Yeah, I thank you so much for having me here. I'm really excited to be here.

[00:02:40] Today, I'm an associate professor at Metro State University, which is based in Minnesota. It's

[00:02:46] part of the Minnesota State four year university system. And I teach in the College of Business

[00:02:54] and Management there. Prior to academia, I was a training and operations executive

[00:03:00] in Fortune 500 companies. I led things from compliance training to supply training,

[00:03:08] finance training. So lots of different backgrounds in various HR areas. In this role in higher ed,

[00:03:17] which has been a shift for me. So I'm entering my fifth year and still feeling like I'm figuring

[00:03:22] out what is higher ed since I was in corporate for so long. But my focus is really on researching

[00:03:28] and also teaching DEI, diversity, equity and inclusion within organizations. And so that led

[00:03:36] us here to some of the research that a team that I'm on published last year. And when we get to

[00:03:43] this topic, I think everybody's going to be quite interested because it's going to be a

[00:03:47] different take one that we've never had on this program. So we're right very excited to talk

[00:03:51] about it. But first, we always do this, we have to ask Becky what's one fun thing that

[00:03:57] no one knows about you. Yeah, so I actually really thought about this and tried to pick something that

[00:04:03] I've never shared before. So to be fair, my family knows this about me, but I am a bad driver.

[00:04:10] I am, I am a horrible driver. And I don't know if it's because I grew up in California.

[00:04:18] And so I never really learned to be graceful on the road or learned to go over 20 miles per

[00:04:25] hour maybe because I'm always stuck in traffic. But now that I'm in the Midwest, I'm like, oh,

[00:04:29] wow, I'm really bad at this. And people in the Midwest, they love driving. Like why would we

[00:04:36] fly to Chicago? That's an eight hour drive. And I would have never said that living in California.

[00:04:41] But no, I'm just bad. So most of the time my wife will gently say, Hey, how about I drive?

[00:04:47] And I know that's her way of saying, follow hands, my eyes, follow my hands.

[00:04:54] I'll tell you, she loves you by the way. Well, you would do fine down here in Phoenix because

[00:05:00] everybody talks about the California drivers down here in Phoenix. And I got to say ever since

[00:05:04] moving here, I have to agree there. California drivers are the worst. I don't know what happens

[00:05:10] over there in that state. I don't either. And I didn't know it until I moved somewhere.

[00:05:16] And it was probably three years. And my wife says, do you ever turn on a turn signal?

[00:05:21] And I just didn't realize that I wasn't using a turn signal. And in California,

[00:05:27] hanging your hand out the window. Are you sure you're not from Rhode Island?

[00:05:31] Oh, is that a Rhode Island thing too? They never use turn signals. And if they do,

[00:05:35] it's after they've, they're passing you at 95 miles an hour.

[00:05:39] Like an FYI, I just passed you. Yeah, it's so funny.

[00:05:43] Things I just didn't notice until I lived somewhere else.

[00:05:46] Well, it was a very brave thing for you to admit. And so we really appreciate that.

[00:05:51] And the Tesla salespeople with the self-driving cars are about to call you.

[00:05:56] I'm their target audience. They're like, yes, this will be safer for everyone if this is what

[00:06:01] it is. Yeah.

[00:06:04] So our topic for today is a fascinating one. If you follow the HR Data Podcast at all,

[00:06:10] you've noticed that over the last three seasons, at least, we've spoken about diversity,

[00:06:16] equity, inclusion and belonging. Probably I'm not trying to make anything up here.

[00:06:21] At least 30 or 40 times. But today, we're going to take somewhat of a different take on it.

[00:06:27] And it's going to be a fascinating discussion. Today, we're going to be talking about qualitative

[00:06:32] data from a study that Becky and her colleagues had done on white DE&I professionals.

[00:06:47] So our first question, Becky, is what led to your research on those people who identify as

[00:06:55] white on DE&I teams? Yeah, thanks. And I agree it is an unusual topic. And so I'm really happy to

[00:07:05] dig in with you and talk to listeners afterwards as well because I am curious about how we can

[00:07:14] begin to unpack DEI and the impacts of DEI within organizations. And so this research

[00:07:23] team, we started talking about this after the murder of George Floyd and I'm in Minneapolis.

[00:07:31] And that was, you know, it hasn't stopped. We've seen murders before, we're seeing murders after.

[00:07:37] And as researchers, we were like, what can we do? And we felt like it was important to really begin

[00:07:43] digging in and trying to understand how all of these organizations, and again, we saw them

[00:07:48] in Minneapolis that were coming forward and committing millions of dollars, think of the

[00:07:54] targets, the best buys, the three ends. These are all in Minnesota. And trying to understand what

[00:08:01] really is going to change the culture within organizations. And as a white researcher, I

[00:08:08] really felt like I needed to think ethically about what is my role in this research and

[00:08:20] is my role to talk to marginalized, underserved racial minorities and understand their lived

[00:08:30] experience. And I just didn't feel like that was my role. I feel like there are researchers

[00:08:36] that have been doing that work for years and years. And I wasn't sure if us knowing that information

[00:08:44] would actually make the change that we want to see. As I was doing research, it was really around

[00:08:51] looking at who holds the power within organizations, who holds up status quo, what does this look

[00:08:58] like? And I felt like there was a desire and a need to really want to understand the role

[00:09:05] of dominant culture. So those who identify as white, those that are in positions that can in fact

[00:09:12] make changes for individuals, whether that's the policies, procedures, informal rules within an

[00:09:19] organization. And so after about a year of going through the literature we landed on,

[00:09:26] why don't we talk to those who are white and DEI teams? So which is a majority, at least it

[00:09:34] was when we did research. I know there's been a lot of changes with DEI teams. A majority of DEI

[00:09:39] leaders identify as white, a majority of people on DEI teams also identify as white. And so one,

[00:09:47] we had a question about that in general. Is that the most effective way? And how did folks begin

[00:09:56] to join DEI teams? What's their training been like? What has been the role navigating

[00:10:02] multiple different in-group, out-of-group experience? You know, social identities.

[00:10:08] And so that's really kind of where we started with the research and the research that we did.

[00:10:13] And so over the course of 18 months we interviewed 16 people throughout the United States,

[00:10:18] many in Fortune 500 companies, and asked them, okay, tell us about your experience. How did you

[00:10:24] get on a DEI team? What do you see as your role? How does being white help or hinder

[00:10:30] your experience in breaking down the structures that are not beneficial for all employees? And

[00:10:40] it was a pretty enlightening experience. Becky, can I ask a question on that? So obviously when

[00:10:47] we talk about DEI and B, we're talking about a few different things. Not only are we talking

[00:10:52] about race, we're talking also about ethnicity, gender identity, we're talking about disability

[00:10:58] or other statuses. When you did this, you were specifically focusing on, I'll say non-Latino,

[00:11:06] non-Latinx populations who identified as white, correct? There weren't... And I guess the other

[00:11:13] part of that question is, as I'm trying to peel back, you weren't filtering on other things like

[00:11:19] mental disability, gender diversity or other things. It was just strictly race and ethnicity

[00:11:25] that you were focusing on. That's correct. And I think that we allowed participants to

[00:11:32] that opted in to identify them themselves. And I think that even that presented a really

[00:11:41] interesting conversation because so even though we all were sitting at the table saying, okay,

[00:11:46] we identify as white, we did unpack that a little bit on a DEI team and really did

[00:11:54] everything we could to find diversity within that meaning. We did have gender diversity. So

[00:12:01] we realized we were interviewing a majority women and so we intentionally reached out to ensure that

[00:12:08] we had gender balance between men and women. We also looked at age. We found initially we

[00:12:16] were interviewing lots of individuals under 35. And so how can we do this all over the United

[00:12:23] States? So those in the south, on the west coast, the south was actually one of the harder areas to

[00:12:28] find participants but we did. And then one thing that was interesting is that as we were going

[00:12:35] through this interview and hearing how people got connected to DEI, people started to reveal

[00:12:40] I identify as LGBT. I identify as Jewish. I identify as a vet down the list of these

[00:12:50] initiatives. And so I think we had a pretty robust conversation with the participants around,

[00:12:56] okay, so how do you bring that to a DEI team and how does or doesn't that impact

[00:13:05] anti-racism initiatives? How has that helped? So if you identify as a marginalized individual,

[00:13:11] how has that helped you in your work or not? So we had a lot of those discussions as well

[00:13:18] because I think whiteness, that's the hardest. One of the hardest things about whiteness is defining it.

[00:13:24] Oh, absolutely. It's really a rainbow. People don't realize their past. They don't

[00:13:30] realize their ancestry. They identify as something but they may not even know that

[00:13:36] that's actually not even true unless they did much more research. But I think what you're

[00:13:42] trying to get to is culturally. Yes, culturally. And so in our paper we talked about both, right?

[00:13:50] So I think there's this idea of if I can link my ancestry to Europe, then I'm white. So we found

[00:13:57] that in the research. But then to your point, there was this cultural element. And I think

[00:14:02] as we're seeing individuals who are immigrating into the United States, moving from countries

[00:14:09] identifying as white, it's really like we're questioning like, okay, what is this whiteness now?

[00:14:15] I say that as a white person because when I talk to my colleagues of color,

[00:14:20] they feel very crisp on what whiteness is. And so I do want to really give that caveat that

[00:14:26] this was talking about whiteness with individuals who are white who are defining what whiteness

[00:14:33] and the ones who are responsible for moving this definition around. And so that was also another

[00:14:39] part of our conversation. Like what you hear so far? Make sure you never miss a show by clicking

[00:14:46] subscribe. This podcast is made possible by salary.com. Now back to the show.

[00:14:54] Which probably gets very emotional or heated in some ways. And I think what you

[00:15:01] are trying to do is look at it ethically, look at it more discreetly and look at it objectively.

[00:15:09] And be able to try and put parameters around it because what you were trying to do is study

[00:15:14] something, not try and introduce maybe I'm reaching here. So I'm actually have a question at the

[00:15:20] end. You weren't reaching, trying to reach conclusions that were necessarily trying to

[00:15:28] trying to be provocative? You were trying to reach an understanding, correct?

[00:15:34] Yeah. I agreed. And this is just a little bit about me and my lens. One thing that I have found

[00:15:44] very frustrating about some DEI initiatives is results will be something like women need

[00:15:52] to be more assertive or women need to negotiate more or people of color need to make more eye

[00:16:00] contact or something like that. And that really places the blame on those individuals that

[00:16:06] there's something that I'm doing wrong in the environment. And so I think with this research

[00:16:11] it was really around looking at the environment through the lens of people that have power

[00:16:19] in the environment but are also actively working to change the environment. Because

[00:16:26] like all groups, whiteness is not a monolith. And I think with all groups we treat them as a

[00:16:33] monolith to be fair. And I think that trying to understand dominant culture, trying to understand

[00:16:41] what it is and how it operates will then allow us to begin to break it down, to begin to say

[00:16:48] this isn't working or how this person or how this group is doing it within this organization

[00:16:54] is working. Let's continue to do that because I think DEI is so nuanced. I can give you 10 tips

[00:17:02] of things to do in an organization but your culture in your organization, the experience of

[00:17:08] your leaders completely changes if that will work or not. And that has been one of the hardest

[00:17:13] things about this. And so doing this qualitative research was really trying to get us down to how

[00:17:18] do we get into the nuances? How do we get into the minutiae that things maybe we don't talk about?

[00:17:23] I guess the question comes to my head when you look at this from a white perspective

[00:17:30] but you also take in all those other dimensions. Did you have a challenge in terms of

[00:17:39] the way that I view myself versus the way that people look at me from the outside

[00:17:46] and the conclusions that come with that? Because the way that I would view myself,

[00:17:54] like you say some people don't dig into their ancestry. I actually have Native American

[00:17:59] ancestry way down the line not much but I could view myself from that lens. But if you

[00:18:06] lined me up next to several individuals they would look and they'd say he's white.

[00:18:13] And so did you see different conclusions and experiences from looking in versus looking out?

[00:18:21] I guess is what my question is. Yeah, no thank you for sharing that. And I think that that was one

[00:18:29] really tricky element of this is how do we center whiteness in order to get to de-centering

[00:18:38] whiteness? Because I think we had to talk about this what is this whiteness, what is your identity?

[00:18:44] What are these experiences that led you to this? Now the one thing that is unique is that

[00:18:52] everybody that we talked to was connected to a DEI team. And so this group talked a lot about their

[00:19:01] in-group identity of being white but that they all had some sort of out-group identity.

[00:19:08] Even the there were there was a 55 year old white heterosexual male in our group who does DEI,

[00:19:17] he had out-group identities. And so we talked a lot about that and how that gets navigated

[00:19:28] when we're talking about race or DEI in general. So I do, I think it's something

[00:19:34] worth talking about. I also think that it's an and this is just for myself and my experience

[00:19:39] and those that I interviewed. It can be really uncomfortable because I'm talking to people who

[00:19:43] really want to break down some systems to make it more equitable for others. And they identify as

[00:19:49] white so they see their power in the system and that can be really hard to talk about. I think

[00:19:55] that there is this acknowledgement even of myself like I know that I have biases, I know that I

[00:20:03] was raised to make decisions that I'm not necessarily proud of on paper and how do I

[00:20:10] work through that and keep trying to do what I believe is the right thing or the next best thing

[00:20:17] within organizations for everybody. And I think it into talk about that in a lens of whiteness with

[00:20:25] the hope of understanding this to begin to break it down so we can de-center the dominant experience

[00:20:32] and workplaces and begin to create it. Hey are you listening to this and thinking to yourself

[00:20:39] man I wish I could talk to David about this. Well you're in luck. We have a special offer for

[00:20:44] listeners of the HR Data Labs podcast, a free half hour call with me about any of the topics we cover

[00:20:51] on the podcast or whatever is on your mind. Go to salary.com forward slash hrdl consulting

[00:20:58] to schedule your free 30 minute call today. So Becky our third question let me throw something

[00:21:05] out at you. So how do we measure this? Where are the analytics with this? So you've created some

[00:21:11] really cool research, we can learn more about ourselves from understanding it. How do we measure

[00:21:18] this? Yeah I mean that's the million dollar question. I think that's the question that a

[00:21:24] lot of folks in DEI are really interested in understanding and there's some really great

[00:21:29] researchers out there that are looking at these inclusion measurements and so for this research

[00:21:36] which is a little different as qualitative and I think a lot of our collectively a lot of our HR

[00:21:43] data is quantitative. We're looking at turnover rates, we're looking at retention rates, we're

[00:21:49] looking at recruitment rates, employee engagement in many ways is also a survey some sort of

[00:21:57] annual cultural survey or engagement survey that we ask and so as I was thinking about this and I

[00:22:05] was thinking about like what could people do qualitative in itself could be one of the

[00:22:10] measurements and the other question that that I challenge us to think through is how are we

[00:22:17] using the data from those that identify as members in dominant culture and so many times

[00:22:24] when we're looking at recruitment data, employee engagement data, dominant culture becomes the

[00:22:30] comparison point so we're looking to see okay are women more engaged than men? Are those who

[00:22:38] identify as white more engaged than those who don't identify as white or pick a group and

[00:22:44] but then my question becomes that that group that identifies in white as white holds a lot of

[00:22:51] power in many cases most senior leaders and organizations are in that group and so what

[00:22:59] is it that we want to know about them and about the impact that they're having on engagement

[00:23:06] and so I encourage, it's a heavy lift but I encourage qualitative analysis to go alongside

[00:23:14] any of those supports. Now we have some of those in place, exit interviews, take those for

[00:23:19] what they're worth. We get a lot of interesting information but I'm also on my way out the door

[00:23:25] and maybe angry and I'm not getting any helpful constructive information but what would this

[00:23:29] look like if I as somebody who's on DEI or somebody in HR sitting down with a senior leader

[00:23:37] and actually saying like how do you really feel about this? How do you really feel

[00:23:43] about employee engagement? How do you really feel about our hiring processes? Do you feel like

[00:23:49] they're equitable and what does equitable mean to you? It was really fascinating to ask people

[00:23:56] their thoughts and their experiences with senior leaders and I think it's listening for things

[00:24:03] like if I'm talking to a senior leader and they say something along the lines of

[00:24:09] hey I'll hire anybody, I just care about the best candidate and on the surface that sounds really

[00:24:16] good but it actually needs to be dug in. We need that there's a lot of coded messaging in that

[00:24:22] that we need to unpack and understand what that means in our organization. These are very hard

[00:24:29] conversations and a lot of us don't want to have these in the workplace but they can help

[00:24:33] us at least get to what is really happening in our organization with our leadership team.

[00:24:40] Don't you think that the there is a I would like to say a now a social difference

[00:24:46] in those answers after the SCOTUS opinion on affirmative action?

[00:24:51] Yeah we're seeing that all over the place I was just reading about Alabama some of the

[00:24:55] legislation going through Alabama this morning and I think that and I think that some of those

[00:25:03] and I encourage folks to go back and listen to some of the speakers that you've had on

[00:25:09] who I think have done a nice job of talking through how do you bridge these conversations

[00:25:14] because I feel like the backlash or the current discourse in some areas is that

[00:25:20] talking about DEI is somehow divisive and that it's somehow pick whatever you're falling on the

[00:25:30] issue that somehow someone is getting left behind because of these policies whether we're talking

[00:25:36] about historically underrepresented communities or white communities somebody's getting left

[00:25:42] behind somebody's getting unfairly treated and so I think that this work will continue and

[00:25:50] that many companies see this work as incredibly important and so I think it's important to understand

[00:25:57] do our senior leaders see this as divisive do they I don't know but we have to understand that

[00:26:04] or where their fears are there was a lot of discussion around fears and cancel culture

[00:26:10] in our research about leaders who even though they have empathy and understanding and want to

[00:26:19] launch an initiative they feel like if they put out a wrong post somewhere that they'll

[00:26:26] lose their entire career and so talking to senior leaders really helps us begin to understand

[00:26:34] what are these unspoken barriers that our programs could run up against that nobody's

[00:26:40] really talking about and all of a sudden things just die and we don't know why and so qualitative

[00:26:45] can help us begin to unpack that my hope is that your research sheds a lens on the things that

[00:26:55] we're doing well and the things that were not and that gives us an ability to be more aware

[00:27:04] and get training on them as a senior leader in an organization as a chro in an organization

[00:27:10] I worry every time I put an email out or text or teams message because I need to

[00:27:18] because everything I say and do will be put under a lens and so I am on a journey to be

[00:27:24] not only an ally but also to learn every day I make mistakes every day I say the wrong things

[00:27:31] every day and I'm not okay with that and so I need to learn and I challenge people who I work with

[00:27:39] to tell me in an unemotional way as much as possible what I do wrong yes I'm a white male

[00:27:46] yes I'm over 45 I'm way over 45 and I was brought up in a different time

[00:27:53] that like to your point before the the thing I need to do and I need to focus on is be a learner

[00:28:00] and ensure that I am sitting or standing where those people are so that and when I say those

[00:28:08] people I mean everybody who's not me so that I know that the things I do and the things I

[00:28:13] say impact them in a different way that I perceive them and be open to it that's my hope is that your

[00:28:19] research enables people like me to learn more so I can focus and be better and that's what I hope

[00:28:28] those conversations with senior leaders could be so people who are listening today you know

[00:28:34] and I think you brought this up before Becky go listen to perspectives from other people

[00:28:40] go read perspectives and whether it's from Martin or Jennifer Jackie or Becky or other people who

[00:28:46] have put out lots of thought leadership on this think about how the things in the things you

[00:28:54] say in the things you do are perceived now look at what your leaders are going through

[00:29:00] and try and help them understand that and I think Becky if there's one message

[00:29:05] you know that that hopefully you're and I guess the question is is there a way for us to consume

[00:29:10] your research so that we can get some of those perspectives yeah absolutely so right now it

[00:29:16] is paid however if you're going to use it for your personal use please email me or contact me

[00:29:22] whatever that looks like and I'm happy to share and I can send you the full article so you

[00:29:26] can review it because David to your point there are a lot of things that are working

[00:29:32] and there are areas that even the participants who cared quite passionately about this really

[00:29:38] saw we're not working and so I think it at least gives us a space to begin to just another pillar

[00:29:48] and all the work that has been done by communities of colors for decades to begin to understand

[00:29:53] okay what is this whiteness how can we break it down for the benefit of everybody yeah because

[00:29:58] I do think it's a learning journey and our participants talked about that extensively

[00:30:03] what does this look like to educate myself what does this look like to educate other people who

[00:30:09] look like me or might have similar experiences to me that was a huge part of it and the other

[00:30:15] thing that I that I put in that I always share with folks and so maybe always my shameless

[00:30:21] plug if you don't know where to start start with a professional start with talking to somebody

[00:30:28] who's paid to help you unpack things because it can be really hard to jump into topics of like

[00:30:34] tell me about the last time you had a racist experience tell me about the last time you were

[00:30:38] a racist those are heavy questions and being vulnerable is a skill and it takes time and so

[00:30:47] if you're like I don't know where to begin connect with me happy to share my paper I also

[00:30:51] encourage you just to practice being vulnerable in a space where it's low risk where it's

[00:30:56] with somebody who's paid to listen to you and help you process and

[00:31:01] and also beginning to see some of the pain from some of this work knowing that understanding that

[00:31:10] I have hurt people that's a heavy thing to carry and as somebody who loves other people like that

[00:31:17] is one of the worst things for me to do is to hurt other people and so I think me working

[00:31:23] through some of that pain allows me to show up in the space and de-center myself because I've been

[00:31:31] working through some of my pain I'm not working through this in a public space with my colleagues

[00:31:37] of color and and so I think that there's lots of different ways to be to begin or to step in

[00:31:43] or to learn to educate ourselves to educate others so yeah thank you for bringing that up David.

[00:31:49] Yeah hopefully it inspires the spirit of curiosity as opposed to a spirit of judgment whether that be

[00:31:54] self-judgment or judgment of others it's the more we're curious the more that we're willing to learn

[00:31:59] both about ourselves as well as others and it sounds like what you're doing is really

[00:32:04] starting that conversation and giving that safe space and I hope you know and the vulnerability

[00:32:11] piece that you talked about is so so key to be able to have that spirit. It is and I think

[00:32:17] I like to believe that we all got into HR because people are cool I mean I think people are super cool

[00:32:24] I think their stories are interesting I think why people make decisions I find it fascinating

[00:32:30] and so I think it's reminding myself of that like oh yeah that's why I wanted to get in this

[00:32:36] industry that's what because I have this genuine love for people and I genuinely want them to be

[00:32:42] successful and I can get quite jaded when I start looking at reports or hearing why things are going

[00:32:49] wrong and it's easy for me to swing like oh my gosh people are horrible but it reminds me like no

[00:32:55] people up close are all really cool. Well we hear about the bad things we hear about people who

[00:33:02] are marching in the streets saying hateful things we don't hear about all the wonderful things

[00:33:08] like someone volunteering on President's Day in a food kitchen or Martin Luther King Day you know helping

[00:33:14] the homeless or you know people who put themselves out there to do the right thing for the right reasons

[00:33:22] you don't hear about that because it's not news but you hear a lot about the wrong and you know

[00:33:27] I guess your encouragement of doing the right thing is the right thing for you and making sure

[00:33:33] that you're good with it yeah um so yeah I love the message it's wonderful Becky. Thank you so much

[00:33:49] we learned so much today this was really cool. Thank you yeah please connect if you have questions I

[00:33:55] love talking about this stuff even though it's hard work hard work I think we're I think we have a lot

[00:34:01] of things we can do that will really benefit people and our organizations. So we'll put your

[00:34:07] information in the show notes so people can contact you and um and maybe get access to your paper

[00:34:14] and thank you Dwight thank you for being here. Thank you thanks for joining us Becky.

[00:34:20] Thanks for having me and thank you all for listening take care and stay safe.

[00:34:24] That was the HR Data Labs podcast if you liked the episode please subscribe

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[00:34:33] Thank you for joining us this week and stay tuned for our next episode. Stay safe.