Alyssa Dver - How Organizations Benefit From ERGs

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_00]: The world of business is more complex than ever.

[00:00:04] [SPEAKER_00]: The world of human resources and compensation is also getting more complex.

[00:00:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the HR Data Labs podcast, your direct source for the latest trends from experts

[00:00:14] [SPEAKER_00]: inside and outside the world of human resources.

[00:00:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Listen as we explore the impact that compensation strategy, data, and people analytics can

[00:00:24] [SPEAKER_00]: have on your organization.

[00:00:25] [SPEAKER_00]: This podcast is sponsored by salary.com.

[00:00:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Your source for data, technology, and consulting for compensation and beyond.

[00:00:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, here are your hosts, David Turetsky and Dwight Brown.

[00:00:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Hello and welcome to the HR Data Labs podcast.

[00:00:40] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm your host David Turetsky, and as always we try and find people inside and outside the

[00:00:44] [SPEAKER_02]: world of HR.

[00:00:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Do you have any latest on what's happening?

[00:00:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Today we're speaking to Alyssa Dver.

[00:00:50] [SPEAKER_02]: And Alyssa, why don't you give us a little bit of background as to who you are and

[00:00:53] [SPEAKER_02]: what you've been doing so far.

[00:00:55] [SPEAKER_01]: I appreciate it, David.

[00:00:57] [SPEAKER_01]: A former CMO, Chief Marketing Officer in the corporate world for way too long, still recovering.

[00:01:03] [SPEAKER_01]: I founded the American Confidence Institute in 2015.

[00:01:08] [SPEAKER_01]: That is an organization that studies the brain science of how and why people need

[00:01:14] [SPEAKER_01]: belonging and subsequently how it feeds their confidence.

[00:01:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And we teach coaches and leaders of all different walks.

[00:01:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And speaking of leaders, as part of that work, we were doing an immense amount of work for

[00:01:25] [SPEAKER_01]: employee resource groups, particularly the leaders and executive sponsors.

[00:01:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And so in 2019, I founded the ERG Leadership Alliance, which now supports 25,000 organizations

[00:01:37] [SPEAKER_01]: around the world and over 50 million ERG champions.

[00:01:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Wow, that's a lot.

[00:01:43] [SPEAKER_02]: And thank you for that work.

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_02]: That's really great work.

[00:01:45] [SPEAKER_02]: We love ERGs.

[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_02]: We've talked about it several times on the podcast and we love how it fosters belonging

[00:01:52] [SPEAKER_02]: in a company.

[00:01:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And I know we're going to talk a little bit about that today.

[00:01:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, please.

[00:01:57] [SPEAKER_02]: But you also have published some books, correct?

[00:02:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I have eight books at this point.

[00:02:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Wow.

[00:02:03] [SPEAKER_01]: I always say I'm never going to do another one.

[00:02:06] [SPEAKER_01]: So eight books.

[00:02:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I've done two TED Talks.

[00:02:09] [SPEAKER_01]: I have my own podcast, which is called Real Confidence and hands in a few thousand

[00:02:14] [SPEAKER_01]: other things too.

[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Wow.

[00:02:16] [SPEAKER_02]: So you're a busy person.

[00:02:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, who is it?

[00:02:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Come on.

[00:02:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.

[00:02:19] [SPEAKER_02]: So what we're going to do is we're going to provide links to all those things in

[00:02:24] [SPEAKER_02]: the show notes so that everybody who's listening and they're going to be

[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_02]: impressed by you will want to either buy your books or listen to your podcast

[00:02:31] [SPEAKER_02]: or also be able to find you wherever you are, especially with those two organizations.

[00:02:38] [SPEAKER_02]: So we tried and do this on every podcast, every episode.

[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_02]: And we ask our guests one fun thing that no one knows about you.

[00:02:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Well,

[00:02:51] [SPEAKER_02]: you should have seen the expression on a Liss's face.

[00:02:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Which one do you want?

[00:02:57] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I put in my notes here.

[00:03:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I, you know, I have I love

[00:03:03] [SPEAKER_01]: or at all and all those things.

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_01]: But after I'm done with those, if there's like a little nervous energy

[00:03:08] [SPEAKER_01]: or idle time, I play another video game and I'm like at level 20, 20 something.

[00:03:13] [SPEAKER_01]: At this point, it's embarrassing.

[00:03:14] [SPEAKER_01]: My kids think it's hilarious and my kids being 21 and 25, like moms, a gamer.

[00:03:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Moms, a gamer.

[00:03:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Hey, there's nothing wrong with that.

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, there's a lot of things.

[00:03:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I love card games on the iPhone, but I don't really get to play very often

[00:03:28] [SPEAKER_02]: because like you, I tend to stay pretty busy.

[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_02]: So my kids, they just look at me and they go, oh, that is just not gaming.

[00:03:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, yeah.

[00:03:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, join me in the online world and it becomes a little addictive.

[00:03:45] [SPEAKER_01]: But you know what?

[00:03:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I think there is a time and a place, particularly in the brain science base,

[00:03:49] [SPEAKER_01]: for giving your brain that opportunity to just kind of settle down.

[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's kind of how I use it more than than anything.

[00:03:56] [SPEAKER_02]: That's awesome.

[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_02]: So today's topic is very near and dear to our hearts.

[00:04:00] [SPEAKER_02]: As I mentioned before, we really support ERGs

[00:04:03] [SPEAKER_02]: and how they foster a place of belonging in organizations.

[00:04:07] [SPEAKER_02]: So our topic for today is why and how ERGs are now needed to collect relevant data

[00:04:13] [SPEAKER_02]: and how much of that are they doing?

[00:04:16] [SPEAKER_02]: And are they doing it right or wrong?

[00:04:25] [SPEAKER_02]: So, Alissa, what's the backstory on the ERGs?

[00:04:28] [SPEAKER_01]: The backstory on these is amazing because Xerox is credited with

[00:04:34] [SPEAKER_01]: starting them back in 1960s.

[00:04:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Wow.

[00:04:37] [SPEAKER_01]: The Blackman's Caucus, as it was called, then developed into what we now know today

[00:04:42] [SPEAKER_01]: is employee groups and the 30, 40 other names they go by.

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_01]: BRGs, ARGs, IRGs, affinity groups, yadda yadda.

[00:04:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And for the large part of that time between men and now,

[00:04:56] [SPEAKER_01]: they went under their radar and I was presenting to so many groups

[00:05:00] [SPEAKER_01]: and I kept saying like, tell me about these groups.

[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_01]: What are they about?

[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Why do they exist?

[00:05:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And the inconsistencies, not just across company to company,

[00:05:09] [SPEAKER_01]: but within a company between one group and the other.

[00:05:12] [SPEAKER_01]: I was like, there's something strange going on.

[00:05:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Like why are these so dysfunctional, quite frankly?

[00:05:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I went to top HR people like CHRO level at Fortune 500

[00:05:23] [SPEAKER_01]: and really smart people.

[00:05:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, what's going on with these?

[00:05:26] [SPEAKER_01]: And I always hear phrases like food flag and fun.

[00:05:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[00:05:30] [SPEAKER_01]: That's what they are.

[00:05:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Or, you know, wine and cheese, social.

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Why would you bother?

[00:05:34] [SPEAKER_01]: They are just clubs.

[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, no, they're not just clubs or they shouldn't just be clubs.

[00:05:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And because I have a business background,

[00:05:42] [SPEAKER_01]: because maybe I really do believe in being a success equalizer.

[00:05:46] [SPEAKER_01]: I was like, these are groups that could really be powerful for the employees.

[00:05:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And quite honestly, I saw a really good opportunity for companies

[00:05:54] [SPEAKER_01]: that would take them seriously.

[00:05:57] [SPEAKER_01]: So David, you know, I don't really believe in lucky to be honest.

[00:06:00] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think I was really lucky with the timing because then,

[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, we started this thing.

[00:06:06] [SPEAKER_01]: I actually went to some friends at State Street

[00:06:09] [SPEAKER_01]: and some of the other big known ERGs.

[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, would you be on my board of advisors and let's start this?

[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_01]: We ran a conference July 2019 downtown Boston

[00:06:18] [SPEAKER_01]: and had 100 people show up and pay to be there.

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And we just did our eighth event.

[00:06:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Our big conference was about two weeks ago.

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_01]: And like I said, we've got 25,000 organizations now globally.

[00:06:29] [SPEAKER_01]: 45 trainers around the world.

[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's not food, flags or fun anymore.

[00:06:33] [SPEAKER_01]: That's for sure.

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, could it have started that way?

[00:06:37] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, could the original intent have been to kind of transition

[00:06:41] [SPEAKER_02]: from maybe a once a year Christmas party

[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_02]: to having more social events for employees?

[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_02]: I know you talked about the the original like real BRG for your Xerox,

[00:06:52] [SPEAKER_02]: but did it become something of a social thing first?

[00:06:56] [SPEAKER_02]: And then it started to get into more affinity groups?

[00:06:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you know, historically speaking, again, Blackman's Caucus,

[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_01]: it was really a political social activism effort.

[00:07:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And they've always kind of straddled that line

[00:07:09] [SPEAKER_01]: between giving employees a voice into decision making

[00:07:13] [SPEAKER_01]: into their needs for the employees of that type.

[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_01]: And again, like most people think about ERGs in a diversity sense.

[00:07:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And for better or for worse, we can certainly dive into this too.

[00:07:27] [SPEAKER_01]: With the D word now being a little bit controversial

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_01]: as organizations have been moving away from that,

[00:07:33] [SPEAKER_01]: the ERGs are getting stronger and more important

[00:07:36] [SPEAKER_01]: because they really do support employee experience.

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And so, yeah, I think it's there is an absolute social element.

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Of course, the need to belong, Maslow and subsequent brain science.

[00:07:47] [SPEAKER_01]: But there's also this urgency for not only employees' voices

[00:07:52] [SPEAKER_01]: to be heard from the employees' sake, but the companies want to hear,

[00:07:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, what markets should we be serving?

[00:07:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Are we serving customers like you in the best ways?

[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Are there benefits that we should have or not have?

[00:08:04] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, there's all kinds of applications here.

[00:08:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Now that the employee group voices are not only wanting to be heard,

[00:08:12] [SPEAKER_01]: they need to be heard in order to make sure that company is operating optimally.

[00:08:16] [SPEAKER_02]: So is that the real ROI here?

[00:08:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Is that the ability for leadership to be able to get feedback from employees?

[00:08:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Or is there something bigger than that?

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, yeah, when you say real ROI, sure.

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely, right?

[00:08:29] [SPEAKER_01]: A little maybe hard to measure in that context.

[00:08:32] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, we kind of look at engagement in the HR space, right?

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Is this important metric?

[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And I make the argument that it is an important metric to HR people.

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_01]: But to a CFO, that is not the real ROI.

[00:08:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Now we know that people who are in employee groups, good employee groups,

[00:08:50] [SPEAKER_01]: in other words, well-organized, funded, supported, have higher

[00:08:54] [SPEAKER_01]: engagement with us significantly.

[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_01]: We know that.

[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_01]: We see that.

[00:08:57] [SPEAKER_01]: We have the data.

[00:08:58] [SPEAKER_01]: We know that they're more productive.

[00:09:00] [SPEAKER_01]: We know that they leverage, you know, they're more satisfied.

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And therefore the satisfaction metrics from good places to work

[00:09:08] [SPEAKER_01]: and others say that they are contributing to profit.

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that the real ROI depends on who you're talking to, but absolutely.

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Like what's the cost of making a bad decision or missing a market opportunity?

[00:09:22] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, whether you look at an employee group for that ROI,

[00:09:25] [SPEAKER_01]: you just look at your product management group, right?

[00:09:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I mean, the reason why I'm coming at it from an ROI perspective

[00:09:30] [SPEAKER_02]: is even to get it off the ground.

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_02]: We know HR programs are always asked, what's the ROI to do this?

[00:09:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And to get it off the ground, to start in a place

[00:09:39] [SPEAKER_02]: that has traditionally not culturally kind of been more employee friendly

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_02]: or looked for employee voices.

[00:09:46] [SPEAKER_02]: There would need to be that ROI that you'd go to the CFO with and said,

[00:09:52] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, we want to invest, you know, real money

[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_02]: in being able to create employee resource groups so that we can dot, dot, dot.

[00:10:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:10:02] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, again, there's lots of data now finally surfacing last year.

[00:10:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Great place to work again, quoting their, their reports called

[00:10:11] [SPEAKER_01]: untapped energy, the potential of ERGs.

[00:10:13] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, they measure the innovation, the speed of innovation

[00:10:18] [SPEAKER_01]: and clearly said that ERG members are, you know, 10 to two more innovative.

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, they talk about not just engagement,

[00:10:27] [SPEAKER_01]: but the involvement in the organization when it comes to,

[00:10:31] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, just making it a great place to work, like talking about it

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_01]: and contributing to it.

[00:10:37] [SPEAKER_01]: So those are all things that again, a real ROI.

[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, now the cost to spin them up, it that's a very big variable, right?

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, is there real cost?

[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Depends. It depends on how you want to do it, how fast you want to do it.

[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_01]: There was a lot of mistakes made after, you know,

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_01]: George Floyd and subsequent COVID and all the things that have happened

[00:11:00] [SPEAKER_01]: that actually helped ERGs come faster, stronger.

[00:11:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Which I think is a good thing and maybe the silver lining and all of it.

[00:11:09] [SPEAKER_01]: But needless to say, we had a lot of people doing a lot of knee-jerk reactions,

[00:11:13] [SPEAKER_01]: hiring people that didn't have the training,

[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_01]: that didn't have the knowledge, didn't have the experience,

[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_01]: particularly with employee groups.

[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_01]: So we had a lot of false starts.

[00:11:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And so today we're seeing a lot of regrouping, a lot of recasting.

[00:11:26] [SPEAKER_01]: And part of that maybe not just because people are like,

[00:11:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, these are important. We got to do them right finally.

[00:11:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And we have lots of training and all kinds of support,

[00:11:35] [SPEAKER_01]: at least the ELA and other places.

[00:11:36] [SPEAKER_01]: But you're also seeing, of course, the diversity groups being kind of reimagined

[00:11:40] [SPEAKER_01]: while you said as a positive.

[00:11:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Right. Reimagined because of what we were talking about before

[00:11:45] [SPEAKER_02]: around the context of diversity in the organization.

[00:11:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. You know, I mean, let's just let's let's call it out

[00:11:53] [SPEAKER_01]: because you and I are these kind of people, right?

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, we're just going to call this out.

[00:11:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Like it, it stings like it breaks my heart to think that

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_01]: there's such opera over, over this diversity need.

[00:12:06] [SPEAKER_01]: There is a need. Hello, people.

[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_01]: There is a need. There's an urgency around it.

[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_01]: But at the end of the day, it's a word.

[00:12:13] [SPEAKER_01]: So the work that at least we're seeing and getting done in the ERGs

[00:12:18] [SPEAKER_01]: for the sake of diversity,

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_01]: but also for the sake of every employee that really needs to feel

[00:12:23] [SPEAKER_01]: that they're more connected, that has not stopped.

[00:12:25] [SPEAKER_01]: That's accelerated.

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_02]: I think you may have mentioned this before,

[00:12:29] [SPEAKER_02]: but it's not just about the performance of the people who are in it.

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_02]: It's also really about the mental health of the people who are in it,

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_02]: the feeling of belonging.

[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And there are lots of these organizations that they thrive

[00:12:42] [SPEAKER_02]: because the people in them feel a deeper connection to the organization.

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Whereas they may have felt underrepresented,

[00:12:49] [SPEAKER_02]: they may have felt disenfranchised,

[00:12:51] [SPEAKER_02]: they may have felt not listened to.

[00:12:54] [SPEAKER_02]: This gives them that opportunity to have their voices heard,

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_02]: to feel more a part of a decision-making process to your point

[00:13:03] [SPEAKER_02]: because we're now asking them questions directly in the environment

[00:13:09] [SPEAKER_02]: where they feel comfortable in ways in which shouldn't.

[00:13:14] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to use the word shouldn't.

[00:13:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Shouldn't have ramifications of, you know, this is a safe space.

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a place you can be yourself.

[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_02]: There's a place where there's people around you who are just like you

[00:13:23] [SPEAKER_02]: and who are feeling the same way.

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_02]: So I can ask you an honest question and hopefully get an honest answer.

[00:13:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Isn't that even more important today than it ever has been

[00:13:32] [SPEAKER_02]: because of this environment?

[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, gosh, yeah, of course.

[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And again, I want to remind people, you know,

[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_01]: we're not just talking about black, Hispanic underserved populations.

[00:13:40] [SPEAKER_01]: We're talking about young professionals, neurodiverse.

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_01]: We're talking about hobby groups and even religious groups.

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And so, yeah, that psychological safety is fundamental

[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_01]: to the way our brains have to operate in the optimal way.

[00:13:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And so you want to get innovation, you got to have a clean brain.

[00:13:56] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, don't just play online video games,

[00:13:58] [SPEAKER_01]: but you got to give people the opportunity

[00:14:00] [SPEAKER_01]: to really feel comfortable.

[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_01]: One of the arguments that has been lingering forever in this space

[00:14:06] [SPEAKER_01]: is, you know, what's the role of allies?

[00:14:08] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think this is really an important thing.

[00:14:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Like we all want to feel like, oh, there's allies out there.

[00:14:13] [SPEAKER_01]: It's great. But when when there's a need for that safe place,

[00:14:18] [SPEAKER_01]: you need to have allies put aside.

[00:14:21] [SPEAKER_01]: You need to have that safe place for those members.

[00:14:24] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I'll give a perfect example, I think.

[00:14:26] [SPEAKER_01]: And I say, perfect, I'm going to take that back.

[00:14:28] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not perfect.

[00:14:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Just happens to be the example that always jumps to my brain.

[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_01]: During the church, Floyd, right after it happened,

[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_01]: a lot of the black groups were calling us.

[00:14:38] [SPEAKER_01]: We would have a lot of conversations

[00:14:40] [SPEAKER_01]: with how can we support you?

[00:14:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And the one thing they kept saying over and over is,

[00:14:44] [SPEAKER_01]: can you tell everybody else to just go away for a while

[00:14:46] [SPEAKER_01]: while we process this together?

[00:14:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Like we don't want to have to educate you about black people.

[00:14:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Go go read a book.

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, this is not our problem right now.

[00:14:54] [SPEAKER_01]: What our problem is, we need to come together as a community

[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_01]: and process this together without this additional overhead.

[00:15:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, I think that's part of the equation to David is

[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_01]: we want people to feel connected and belonging.

[00:15:08] [SPEAKER_01]: But sometimes it can be really hard

[00:15:10] [SPEAKER_01]: if you're not of that like type to create that psychological safety.

[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_01]: So these groups, you know, they don't assume

[00:15:16] [SPEAKER_01]: that your manager necessarily understands you.

[00:15:19] [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't assume that the HR people are responsible

[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_01]: for your professional development.

[00:15:23] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a way to come together and say, hey, you know,

[00:15:26] [SPEAKER_01]: I want to go with people who are like me

[00:15:27] [SPEAKER_01]: and figure out how to make the best of myself

[00:15:30] [SPEAKER_01]: and the work environment with, you know,

[00:15:32] [SPEAKER_01]: with the opportunities that are there.

[00:15:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think you said this very clearly, though,

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_02]: in a safe space.

[00:15:38] [SPEAKER_02]: In a safe space, right.

[00:15:39] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, we can be together.

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Let's either heal together.

[00:15:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Let's be together.

[00:15:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Let's talk about these things in a way

[00:15:45] [SPEAKER_02]: in which we don't have to explain it to anybody else

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_02]: because they're not going through it.

[00:15:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.

[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, forget for a second the crisis situations.

[00:15:53] [SPEAKER_01]: The everyday situations today, you kind of hinted at it.

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_01]: We're remote.

[00:15:58] [SPEAKER_01]: We barely see each other in the office.

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Even when we're in the office,

[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_01]: we may not even know who sits next to us, like literally,

[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_01]: because they're on a different schedule

[00:16:06] [SPEAKER_01]: or we have our earbuds in and we're not, you know,

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_01]: my nephew who is 21 years old

[00:16:13] [SPEAKER_01]: is working at a very big high tech company.

[00:16:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And I was joking with him.

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_01]: He listens all day long.

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_01]: He's an engineer. He's on his earbuds.

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, do you know anybody outside of your immediate team?

[00:16:22] [SPEAKER_01]: He's like, no.

[00:16:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I was like, what?

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, they bring lunch in and all that.

[00:16:27] [SPEAKER_01]: They have all these activities

[00:16:29] [SPEAKER_01]: and things to get people together, but we just don't.

[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_01]: We've changed the way we are.

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Did we get spoiled during COVID in a way

[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_01]: that we're like, we don't need other people?

[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.

[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but there are different ways to get together.

[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_02]: And like we do those too.

[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_02]: We do virtual water coolers.

[00:16:45] [SPEAKER_02]: We have virtual events.

[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_02]: We did a virtual pride and Juneteenth event not too long ago.

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_02]: And that really did bring a lot of people together.

[00:16:53] [SPEAKER_02]: We learned a lot, plus we had fun.

[00:16:55] [SPEAKER_02]: We also learned about the people who are on the call

[00:16:57] [SPEAKER_02]: about how much they knew and didn't know

[00:16:58] [SPEAKER_02]: about certain things.

[00:17:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Not going to tell names,

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_02]: but it was a great way of getting together.

[00:17:03] [SPEAKER_02]: But it's a new way of getting together

[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_02]: because of the environment.

[00:17:07] [SPEAKER_01]: But you made it happen, right?

[00:17:09] [SPEAKER_01]: You did it.

[00:17:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's the real issue is that managers,

[00:17:14] [SPEAKER_01]: senior leaders,

[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_01]: they're doing their thing.

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_01]: They're not gonna say, hey, young professionals,

[00:17:20] [SPEAKER_01]: let's get you together and chat, right?

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_01]: So the employee groups become that go-to counselor,

[00:17:26] [SPEAKER_01]: if you will, that organizes those opportunities

[00:17:29] [SPEAKER_01]: and really facilitates those things.

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Like what you hear so far?

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Make sure you never miss a show by clicking Subscribe.

[00:17:37] [SPEAKER_00]: This podcast is made possible by salary.com.

[00:17:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Now back to the show.

[00:17:43] [SPEAKER_02]: So let's switch gears a little bit and talk about,

[00:17:46] [SPEAKER_02]: well, what's the future of ERGs?

[00:17:49] [SPEAKER_01]: The future of ERGs.

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, crystal ball.

[00:17:52] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, look in the crystal ball.

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, you know, I did write about many of the things

[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_01]: that I'm seeing in the future,

[00:17:58] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, coming already, starting to percolate.

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, I tend to be a little prophetic in this.

[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And sometimes I think,

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if I've created the future

[00:18:05] [SPEAKER_01]: or the future is just-

[00:18:07] [SPEAKER_02]: It's possible we do manifest our futures, right?

[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, so there are several things

[00:18:12] [SPEAKER_01]: that we're starting to see.

[00:18:13] [SPEAKER_01]: I think these are really early things,

[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_01]: but the idea of HR shared services,

[00:18:18] [SPEAKER_01]: which has been around for a while,

[00:18:20] [SPEAKER_01]: I think we're going to start to see,

[00:18:21] [SPEAKER_01]: we should see ERG shared services

[00:18:23] [SPEAKER_01]: because it's so ridiculous if you think about it.

[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_01]: You ask an ERG leader who has a full-time job already.

[00:18:30] [SPEAKER_01]: This is a volunteer role.

[00:18:31] [SPEAKER_01]: They're not getting paid, you know,

[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_01]: to be an event planner,

[00:18:35] [SPEAKER_01]: to be an email expert, a marketing expert,

[00:18:37] [SPEAKER_01]: all these different hats they have to wear as part of this.

[00:18:40] [SPEAKER_01]: It's ridiculous.

[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_01]: So if we can have a shared service opportunity

[00:18:43] [SPEAKER_01]: where all the ERGs in that organization can be like,

[00:18:46] [SPEAKER_01]: hey, we want to run an event.

[00:18:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Can you help us organize it?

[00:18:49] [SPEAKER_01]: And there's somebody that can help do that.

[00:18:50] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think that's a big,

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_01]: that will make a huge difference.

[00:18:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think, you know, the companies

[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_01]: that are jumping on that

[00:18:55] [SPEAKER_01]: are going to really see the ROI there.

[00:18:59] [SPEAKER_01]: We are seeing things like outside funding all of a sudden.

[00:19:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Like so ERGs by definition,

[00:19:04] [SPEAKER_01]: differ than clubs

[00:19:05] [SPEAKER_01]: because they get funding and accountability

[00:19:07] [SPEAKER_01]: from the mothership, right?

[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And outside funding, you know,

[00:19:12] [SPEAKER_01]: organizations that want to get

[00:19:15] [SPEAKER_01]: maybe a particular group's perspective

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_01]: or a loyalty, you know,

[00:19:21] [SPEAKER_01]: those are things that are really interesting.

[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Now they raise a whole bunch of questions,

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, of equity and other things,

[00:19:26] [SPEAKER_01]: but you know, I think it's an interesting model.

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_01]: If you know a particular brand wants to go

[00:19:31] [SPEAKER_01]: and fund an event, why not, right?

[00:19:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Provide swag, whatever it is.

[00:19:35] [SPEAKER_01]: We're seeing a lot of subgrouping.

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And I can't believe this has not happened sooner.

[00:19:41] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, you have a group like the Asian group

[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_01]: or whatever name,

[00:19:45] [SPEAKER_01]: because there's all different Asian Pacific

[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_01]: and you know, all different versions.

[00:19:49] [SPEAKER_01]: But you know, Russians, Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese.

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_01]: They're all different, very different.

[00:19:57] [SPEAKER_01]: So we're seeing the subgroupings

[00:19:58] [SPEAKER_01]: so that caregivers taking care of little kids

[00:20:02] [SPEAKER_01]: versus taking your parents.

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there's nothing even remotely similar

[00:20:04] [SPEAKER_01]: to that.

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_01]: So we're seeing subgroups,

[00:20:07] [SPEAKER_01]: although those subgroups still tend to roll up to the top,

[00:20:10] [SPEAKER_01]: but you know, it's an interesting management challenge

[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_01]: when you start subgrouping.

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, it becomes much more expensive

[00:20:17] [SPEAKER_02]: if you're managing 20 groups instead of the 10 rollup groups.

[00:20:21] [SPEAKER_02]: So then you might want to get sponsorships from Amazon

[00:20:24] [SPEAKER_02]: and from, you know, Best Buy

[00:20:27] [SPEAKER_02]: or whomever the retailer Dijor

[00:20:29] [SPEAKER_02]: or company Dijor is to be able to sponsor those groups.

[00:20:33] [SPEAKER_02]: And as you say, not only get loyalty,

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_02]: but get some affinity to those groups.

[00:20:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:20:39] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I'll throw in one other interesting trend

[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_01]: that again is kind of an early trend.

[00:20:44] [SPEAKER_01]: So I consider for the future.

[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Along have been the groups like Prospanica and Alpha

[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_01]: and other groups that I would consider

[00:20:52] [SPEAKER_01]: cross-organization, the ERGIS, right?

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_01]: They are independent

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_01]: and people who are members

[00:20:57] [SPEAKER_01]: are from all different organizations.

[00:20:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And we're seeing kind of a reblasm of that

[00:21:02] [SPEAKER_01]: as well as cross-organizational programs.

[00:21:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And again, these were something that I did years ago.

[00:21:07] [SPEAKER_01]: I was a participant where multiple organizations

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_01]: might pull together a particular event.

[00:21:13] [SPEAKER_01]: But this is another way of pooling resources

[00:21:16] [SPEAKER_01]: as well as increasing your geographical connection, right?

[00:21:21] [SPEAKER_01]: So if you're in a particular industry

[00:21:24] [SPEAKER_01]: and let's say you're in the women's group

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_01]: and one of them and then all of a sudden you're in an event

[00:21:27] [SPEAKER_01]: and there's five or six other companies of your area there

[00:21:30] [SPEAKER_01]: that's a really big, wonderful benefit for those members.

[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_01]: So we're seeing some of that happening again too.

[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_02]: But Alyssa, can I ask a specific question about that?

[00:21:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Wouldn't you think,

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_02]: because inside an ERG inside a company

[00:21:44] [SPEAKER_02]: there's some safety, right?

[00:21:46] [SPEAKER_02]: We're not worried about privacy issues somewhat.

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_02]: We're not worried about privacy.

[00:21:50] [SPEAKER_02]: We're not worried about any intellectual property.

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_02]: We're not worried about people poaching.

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_02]: We're all within the same company.

[00:21:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Now when you start to open it up to other enterprises

[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_02]: other companies, don't you start worrying about,

[00:22:03] [SPEAKER_02]: could my intellectual property bleed?

[00:22:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Could I lose people?

[00:22:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Wouldn't there be that kind of

[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_02]: because we don't have the firewall in that case

[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_02]: now we're kind of reaching past that.

[00:22:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, we're not talking about like ongoing meetings

[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_01]: like there were taught well with the cross-organizational

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah sure like a prospanic of course.

[00:22:23] [SPEAKER_01]: But you know what?

[00:22:24] [SPEAKER_01]: We all go to conferences.

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_01]: We all have neighbors.

[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_01]: We talk to each other.

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_01]: So the same rules would have to apply.

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_01]: But you know this cross-programming is usually

[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_01]: something like they're having

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_01]: you know the ones that I participate in the past

[00:22:36] [SPEAKER_01]: were the women's organizations where they're

[00:22:38] [SPEAKER_01]: you know they're inviting women speakers and stuff.

[00:22:40] [SPEAKER_01]: So it really is more like a conference or an event

[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_01]: in the ERG vernacular.

[00:22:44] [SPEAKER_01]: We call that a program.

[00:22:46] [SPEAKER_01]: But even mentorship programs,

[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I have a very good friend who runs

[00:22:50] [SPEAKER_01]: a wonderful mentorship company

[00:22:51] [SPEAKER_01]: and the mentors are from all other different companies.

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_01]: So you know I think we have to not only trust employees

[00:22:58] [SPEAKER_01]: but you know in the context of their own career

[00:23:01] [SPEAKER_01]: and their own needs.

[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_01]: You know there's nothing,

[00:23:04] [SPEAKER_01]: the firewall is I don't think it's really applicable.

[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Well yeah and to the extent of which

[00:23:08] [SPEAKER_02]: and you're absolutely right to the extent of which

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_02]: we go to SHRM which is the Society

[00:23:11] [SPEAKER_02]: for Human Resource Management or World at Work

[00:23:14] [SPEAKER_02]: which is for compensation and benefits professionals

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_02]: or other other conferences.

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_02]: So there is that kind of you know

[00:23:21] [SPEAKER_02]: you have to stay within your own

[00:23:23] [SPEAKER_02]: you don't breach your own firewall

[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_02]: but you can you're meeting all the people

[00:23:27] [SPEAKER_02]: that are in your space and you're gathering information,

[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_02]: you're gathering experience,

[00:23:31] [SPEAKER_02]: you're listening to other speakers.

[00:23:33] [SPEAKER_02]: So I totally get you there.

[00:23:34] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's a really great way of being able

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_02]: to think past the that objection.

[00:23:39] [SPEAKER_02]: And I guess the question is

[00:23:40] [SPEAKER_02]: do we see these kind of taking on more

[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_02]: of that social aspect like

[00:23:45] [SPEAKER_02]: and I know this is gonna sound funny

[00:23:46] [SPEAKER_02]: like a sorority or fraternity where

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_02]: you know we're all of the same stripe

[00:23:51] [SPEAKER_02]: we're all kind of in that group.

[00:23:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And so we kind of start building those bonds

[00:23:57] [SPEAKER_02]: of that group.

[00:23:58] [SPEAKER_02]: You mentioned a couple specifically

[00:24:01] [SPEAKER_02]: do we then wear the shirt?

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Do we then wear the pride of being part

[00:24:06] [SPEAKER_02]: of that group as well as not only

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_02]: being part of our own organization?

[00:24:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Well yes and no, of course right.

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_01]: So yes there's you know shirts already

[00:24:16] [SPEAKER_01]: out there that people you know

[00:24:17] [SPEAKER_01]: will be donning for their particular event

[00:24:19] [SPEAKER_01]: but let's not forget we're all intersectional right?

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_01]: So you know you may be a black woman

[00:24:25] [SPEAKER_01]: and want to have affinity with both those groups.

[00:24:28] [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't or multiple groups right?

[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And or be an ally with multiple groups.

[00:24:34] [SPEAKER_01]: So showing that alignment I think it's

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah we all gonna wanna kind of demonstrate that

[00:24:42] [SPEAKER_01]: but do we wear a shirt that has our unique thing?

[00:24:44] [SPEAKER_01]: You know one of the things

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_01]: that we talked about we had our conferences recently

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_01]: we have two conferences one for oversight managers

[00:24:51] [SPEAKER_01]: the DEI professionals and one for members.

[00:24:54] [SPEAKER_01]: And we invited people to kind of like

[00:24:56] [SPEAKER_01]: adorn their name tags in a way that represented them the best

[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_01]: and of course everyone's unique right?

[00:25:01] [SPEAKER_01]: So I you know there's a lot of paradox in this space

[00:25:05] [SPEAKER_01]: and it's one of the reasons I find it so fascinating

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_01]: but as much as we wanna be affiliated

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_01]: as you know aligned with a group

[00:25:13] [SPEAKER_01]: we also wanna respect each other's uniquenesses

[00:25:16] [SPEAKER_01]: and so I don't know the right answer

[00:25:19] [SPEAKER_01]: or the actual answer David

[00:25:21] [SPEAKER_01]: but I hope that we respect that not everybody

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_01]: has to be the same to still be belonged.

[00:25:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely, absolutely that sounds it's perfect answer.

[00:25:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Hey are you listening to this and thinking to yourself

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_02]: man I wish I could talk to David about this.

[00:25:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Well you're in luck.

[00:25:36] [SPEAKER_02]: We have a special offer for listeners

[00:25:38] [SPEAKER_02]: of the HR Data Labs podcast.

[00:25:40] [SPEAKER_02]: A free half hour call with me

[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_02]: about any of the topics we cover on the podcast

[00:25:45] [SPEAKER_02]: or whatever is on your mind.

[00:25:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Go to salary.com forward slash H-R-D-L consulting

[00:25:52] [SPEAKER_02]: to schedule your free 30 minute call today.

[00:25:55] [SPEAKER_02]: So let's get to question three

[00:25:57] [SPEAKER_02]: cause I think this is a really great one

[00:25:59] [SPEAKER_02]: for the people who are out there who are saying

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_02]: well we don't have an ERG at our company

[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_02]: so what can we do?

[00:26:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Where do we go to find the resources

[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_02]: to be able to help us build

[00:26:08] [SPEAKER_02]: or manage ERGs internally?

[00:26:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Well the first thing you have to decide

[00:26:13] [SPEAKER_01]: you're gonna do it and the reason I say that

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_01]: is because if you don't have thorough buy-in

[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_01]: to the top level, don't even bother.

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[00:26:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Don't build them unless the company

[00:26:23] [SPEAKER_01]: the organization and we, you know I say company

[00:26:25] [SPEAKER_01]: we have governments and nonprofits

[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_01]: and universities all different kinds

[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_01]: and some of them are small 30 employees

[00:26:32] [SPEAKER_01]: so the size and the type doesn't matter.

[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_01]: We have large companies that just started

[00:26:37] [SPEAKER_01]: like I always go what right they just started

[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_01]: so never use that we haven't done it yet as an excuse

[00:26:44] [SPEAKER_01]: but the excuse that you should use

[00:26:46] [SPEAKER_01]: to before you do anything is if you don't have

[00:26:48] [SPEAKER_01]: senior management saying yes we wanna do this

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_01]: and we will support them, don't bother.

[00:26:52] [SPEAKER_01]: It's gonna be an uphill battle.

[00:26:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Once that is bought in, the first thing to do

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_01]: is really sit down and think about your policies

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_01]: and on our website I know you're gonna give links

[00:27:01] [SPEAKER_01]: the ergleadershipalliance.com page

[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_01]: has a copy of the book ERG Intelligence

[00:27:07] [SPEAKER_01]: that's the last one I wrote, the eighth one.

[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a very thin, skinny book.

[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_01]: It tells you everything about ERGs

[00:27:14] [SPEAKER_01]: but at the back of the book is an appendix

[00:27:15] [SPEAKER_01]: to write a policy guide and call it whatever you want.

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_01]: This is where you gotta start

[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_01]: because otherwise you don't have the answers

[00:27:23] [SPEAKER_01]: to things that could open you up to liability.

[00:27:26] [SPEAKER_01]: And like an HR guide you gotta have some rules

[00:27:29] [SPEAKER_01]: it ensures equity but it also keeps you

[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_01]: as the HR manager or DEI professional

[00:27:35] [SPEAKER_01]: in a place where you can not have a risk.

[00:27:39] [SPEAKER_02]: That's really important and people would say

[00:27:42] [SPEAKER_02]: how do we create these things without having that risk?

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_02]: And if you, and I totally love where you're going with that

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_02]: senior manager buy-in means that you'll be able to build

[00:27:53] [SPEAKER_02]: the type of ERG that your culture supports

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_02]: and that the leadership supports

[00:27:58] [SPEAKER_02]: and then building that policy

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_02]: and then getting it blessed by leadership by the way

[00:28:02] [SPEAKER_02]: is the right way of starting there

[00:28:05] [SPEAKER_02]: because if you don't get their blessing

[00:28:06] [SPEAKER_02]: then bad things can happen with that.

[00:28:10] [SPEAKER_02]: We've all seen it.

[00:28:11] [SPEAKER_02]: We've all seen it with other HR processes

[00:28:12] [SPEAKER_02]: or programs or policies.

[00:28:15] [SPEAKER_02]: They need to completely buy in.

[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And potentially I think you may have said this

[00:28:20] [SPEAKER_02]: but if not, I apologize.

[00:28:21] [SPEAKER_02]: But I think you said that some senior managers

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_02]: you want them to actually participate

[00:28:26] [SPEAKER_02]: and be visible and sometimes you don't, right?

[00:28:30] [SPEAKER_01]: That's true.

[00:28:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so the success of an ERG really hinges

[00:28:34] [SPEAKER_01]: on not just the overall culture

[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_01]: and the top level people saying

[00:28:38] [SPEAKER_01]: this is important, we're gonna do it

[00:28:39] [SPEAKER_01]: but having executive sponsors for each group.

[00:28:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And there's always a question,

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_01]: do you need an executive sponsor that looks like

[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_01]: has the same affinity as the group it's sponsoring?

[00:28:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And the answer is no.

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_01]: It would be awesome.

[00:28:53] [SPEAKER_01]: It certainly raises a flag to say

[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_01]: why don't we have people like that at the senior level?

[00:28:58] [SPEAKER_01]: But there is a skill set, those executives

[00:29:01] [SPEAKER_01]: there's a skill set and a set of visibility

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_01]: that that executive has that they bring to the table

[00:29:08] [SPEAKER_01]: that those ERG leaders and members don't have.

[00:29:11] [SPEAKER_01]: So as long as there's honest and transparency about,

[00:29:14] [SPEAKER_01]: hey, you know what, I'm not the same kind

[00:29:17] [SPEAKER_01]: of demographic you are but I wanna help

[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_01]: and this is why.

[00:29:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is what I can bring to the table

[00:29:22] [SPEAKER_01]: and this is what I would like to learn from you

[00:29:24] [SPEAKER_01]: and this is what I think you can learn from me.

[00:29:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Then they work beautifully.

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_01]: But it does, you know, it certainly raises a flag.

[00:29:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Like why aren't there people like these members

[00:29:33] [SPEAKER_01]: at the top level?

[00:29:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I have to tell you when I was at ADP,

[00:29:36] [SPEAKER_02]: we had very strong executive leadership team

[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_02]: from the executive ELT from the top level.

[00:29:44] [SPEAKER_02]: So the CFO is part of the LGBTQ affinity group.

[00:29:49] [SPEAKER_02]: The leaders on the ELT, multiple of them

[00:29:52] [SPEAKER_02]: that were female were on the empowering women

[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_02]: affinity group.

[00:29:57] [SPEAKER_02]: So we had lots of great representation.

[00:30:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, the Latinx group was led by Carlos Rodriguez

[00:30:04] [SPEAKER_02]: at the time, our CEO.

[00:30:06] [SPEAKER_02]: And so it always looked good because not only did they

[00:30:11] [SPEAKER_02]: say they were a part of it,

[00:30:12] [SPEAKER_02]: but they actually attended and then participated

[00:30:15] [SPEAKER_02]: and it made you feel comfortable

[00:30:17] [SPEAKER_02]: if you were going to those things,

[00:30:19] [SPEAKER_02]: you could run into Carlos or Maria or Debbie

[00:30:22] [SPEAKER_02]: or whomever the ELT member was that represented.

[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_02]: And it was wonderful to be able to not only rebelbose,

[00:30:31] [SPEAKER_02]: but talk to a lot of the leadership

[00:30:33] [SPEAKER_02]: across the different businesses

[00:30:35] [SPEAKER_02]: and be able to learn about them.

[00:30:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's in and of itself,

[00:30:38] [SPEAKER_01]: it's a great reason why people join and lead ERGs

[00:30:41] [SPEAKER_01]: is to get that ability to meet people

[00:30:43] [SPEAKER_01]: they normally wouldn't.

[00:30:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Now with that said, we still have the frozen middle,

[00:30:48] [SPEAKER_01]: right?

[00:30:49] [SPEAKER_01]: And even when this CEO showing up at an event

[00:30:52] [SPEAKER_01]: doesn't mean that the middle managers are.

[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_01]: So one of the big pushes right now

[00:30:56] [SPEAKER_01]: is how do you get those managers to be okay

[00:31:00] [SPEAKER_01]: with giving David, if he's the leader

[00:31:02] [SPEAKER_01]: of a particular group time to do that work.

[00:31:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Without demanding, hey, I want every second of your life.

[00:31:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's been a challenge.

[00:31:11] [SPEAKER_01]: I won't lie to you, the remote issue

[00:31:13] [SPEAKER_01]: that you brought up before having people

[00:31:15] [SPEAKER_01]: who are remote part-time, factory workers,

[00:31:18] [SPEAKER_01]: frontline workers, should we,

[00:31:21] [SPEAKER_01]: they're on an hourly wage in a lot of cases,

[00:31:22] [SPEAKER_01]: should we give them that hour

[00:31:24] [SPEAKER_01]: to come to an ERG meeting or program.

[00:31:26] [SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of issues that still haven't been wrestled

[00:31:29] [SPEAKER_01]: with compensation overall, still hot potato,

[00:31:33] [SPEAKER_01]: but needless to say, there are some really good reasons

[00:31:39] [SPEAKER_01]: to be an ERG leader beyond getting a bonus spot bonus

[00:31:42] [SPEAKER_01]: or you know.

[00:31:43] [SPEAKER_02]: But you also mentioned before,

[00:31:45] [SPEAKER_02]: when we were talking about the setup of the groups

[00:31:47] [SPEAKER_02]: and the setup of the programs

[00:31:48] [SPEAKER_02]: that if you didn't have executive leadership buy-in

[00:31:50] [SPEAKER_02]: and that included the policies that created the ERGs,

[00:31:54] [SPEAKER_02]: then those issues, especially when it comes

[00:31:57] [SPEAKER_02]: to hourly workers being a part of it,

[00:31:59] [SPEAKER_02]: we know hourly workers get training.

[00:32:01] [SPEAKER_02]: We know hourly workers get paid for things

[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_02]: that don't become a product.

[00:32:06] [SPEAKER_02]: So this to me, I mean, I'd love your opinion on this,

[00:32:09] [SPEAKER_02]: isn't that investment in that person

[00:32:11] [SPEAKER_02]: to allow them to do these things?

[00:32:13] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, maybe not on a daily basis,

[00:32:15] [SPEAKER_02]: but at least on a regular basis have that time

[00:32:18] [SPEAKER_02]: to be able to heal, grow, learn?

[00:32:22] [SPEAKER_02]: 100%.

[00:32:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think we can drop the mic and leave it there.

[00:32:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, yes, look, there's the right thing to do

[00:32:32] [SPEAKER_01]: or the thing that makes rational sense

[00:32:33] [SPEAKER_01]: and then there's a reality, right?

[00:32:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, of course.

[00:32:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, I think one of the,

[00:32:38] [SPEAKER_01]: again, I mentioned there's a lot of paradox

[00:32:40] [SPEAKER_01]: in this whole space and when we treat people well,

[00:32:45] [SPEAKER_01]: when we make them feel that they're part of the work family,

[00:32:49] [SPEAKER_01]: when we make them realize that they are a valued asset

[00:32:53] [SPEAKER_01]: and we invest in them, sure, you are gonna get a return.

[00:32:56] [SPEAKER_01]: But again, right back to the beginning of the pod,

[00:32:59] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, how do you show that and prove that

[00:33:00] [SPEAKER_01]: we're just now getting data?

[00:33:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the academics, they're slow on the take,

[00:33:05] [SPEAKER_01]: they're just now producing research

[00:33:07] [SPEAKER_01]: that's showing the benefits.

[00:33:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And there's only, you know,

[00:33:10] [SPEAKER_01]: there's just not a lot of it.

[00:33:11] [SPEAKER_01]: There's not a lot of data out there.

[00:33:13] [SPEAKER_01]: We collect a lot of data as part of the Alliance

[00:33:15] [SPEAKER_01]: because we have the opportunity to,

[00:33:17] [SPEAKER_01]: but needless to say, it's still a lot of the HR type of data,

[00:33:21] [SPEAKER_01]: the engagement studies and how many people

[00:33:24] [SPEAKER_01]: are attending meetings and I always say to folks,

[00:33:26] [SPEAKER_01]: please get the qualitative data,

[00:33:28] [SPEAKER_01]: get the bits that say this person got a promotion

[00:33:32] [SPEAKER_01]: or this person decided not to take a job offer

[00:33:34] [SPEAKER_01]: that they otherwise would have left.

[00:33:37] [SPEAKER_01]: So we're getting there, we are getting there,

[00:33:39] [SPEAKER_01]: but it's been a long coming, right?

[00:33:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh yeah, but let me ask you a stupid question

[00:33:44] [SPEAKER_02]: around the measurement, which is

[00:33:47] [SPEAKER_02]: ERGs are supposed to be kind of a protected space, right?

[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_02]: So are we collecting membership?

[00:33:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Thus, when you go to do your turnover analysis,

[00:33:55] [SPEAKER_02]: you really can't say, well, they belong to an ERG

[00:33:57] [SPEAKER_02]: and so they left or they were part of a group to left

[00:34:00] [SPEAKER_02]: or we see that ERG members have a lower attrition rate

[00:34:04] [SPEAKER_02]: than non ERG members.

[00:34:06] [SPEAKER_02]: We can't do that, right?

[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you can and you can

[00:34:09] [SPEAKER_01]: and it really again depends on the company and the location.

[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_01]: In an engagement study that's anonymous,

[00:34:15] [SPEAKER_01]: which is what most of them do,

[00:34:17] [SPEAKER_01]: they do put a question now,

[00:34:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I shouldn't say most, a lot are doing it,

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_01]: are you a member of one or more ERG

[00:34:23] [SPEAKER_01]: so they can compare members versus non members

[00:34:25] [SPEAKER_01]: in an anonymous way?

[00:34:26] [SPEAKER_01]: There's other tools out there

[00:34:27] [SPEAKER_01]: that again will do it anonymously

[00:34:29] [SPEAKER_01]: but you know probably better than anyone

[00:34:31] [SPEAKER_01]: that HR data can be very faulty

[00:34:33] [SPEAKER_01]: in terms of demographics.

[00:34:35] [SPEAKER_01]: It could be illegal like we mentioned

[00:34:36] [SPEAKER_01]: in certain geographic areas.

[00:34:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And then there's the ERG member types,

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_01]: if you're LGBT and you're not ready to come out,

[00:34:44] [SPEAKER_01]: you're not gonna sign up for the mailing list

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_01]: but maybe use an alias or whatever it might be

[00:34:49] [SPEAKER_01]: so it's hard to measure.

[00:34:51] [SPEAKER_01]: We've heard time and time again

[00:34:53] [SPEAKER_01]: from neurodiverse populations

[00:34:56] [SPEAKER_01]: that they wanna use the information

[00:34:57] [SPEAKER_01]: that that group's providing

[00:34:59] [SPEAKER_01]: but they don't really wanna be identified as

[00:35:01] [SPEAKER_01]: and I say they may not want.

[00:35:04] [SPEAKER_01]: So-

[00:35:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, it's a HIPAA violation if they get recorded

[00:35:06] [SPEAKER_02]: as being part of that group

[00:35:08] [SPEAKER_02]: and then they get passed over for promotion as well.

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that may lead to terrible outcomes.

[00:35:14] [SPEAKER_02]: That's why I'm saying in your HRAS

[00:35:16] [SPEAKER_02]: you're not gonna capture

[00:35:17] [SPEAKER_02]: that these people are part of those particular ERGs

[00:35:21] [SPEAKER_02]: because bad, bad, bad.

[00:35:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that's a bad big brother.

[00:35:24] [SPEAKER_01]: But there's other data points

[00:35:26] [SPEAKER_01]: like I said engagement

[00:35:27] [SPEAKER_01]: and kind of impact related statements

[00:35:30] [SPEAKER_01]: that we can certainly capture

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_01]: but yeah, it's always gonna have that question

[00:35:34] [SPEAKER_01]: and HR people for what it's worth

[00:35:38] [SPEAKER_01]: a little protective of their data too.

[00:35:40] [SPEAKER_01]: So it can be just,

[00:35:42] [SPEAKER_01]: it can just be a very hard thing to even try and get that.

[00:35:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And then when you get it,

[00:35:45] [SPEAKER_01]: you're gonna realize that it's not particularly telling.

[00:35:56] [SPEAKER_02]: I could talk about this part of the conversation all day

[00:36:02] [SPEAKER_02]: but Alyssa, I wanna be respectful of your time

[00:36:04] [SPEAKER_02]: and of our listeners.

[00:36:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much for being on.

[00:36:06] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm gonna have to ask you back.

[00:36:07] [SPEAKER_02]: You're such an awesome guest.

[00:36:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my goodness, thank you so much.

[00:36:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm so grateful.

[00:36:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, there are so many things

[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_02]: we also couldn't cover here.

[00:36:14] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, going beyond just the measurement part

[00:36:17] [SPEAKER_02]: and going to impact and other things,

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_02]: there's a lot of other things to talk about

[00:36:21] [SPEAKER_02]: and we could probably fill another whole episode

[00:36:24] [SPEAKER_02]: on not just the future of ERGs

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_02]: which we tried covering today

[00:36:27] [SPEAKER_02]: and we probably did a pretty good job

[00:36:30] [SPEAKER_02]: but there's a lot of other things.

[00:36:32] [SPEAKER_02]: So if you don't mind,

[00:36:33] [SPEAKER_02]: I will invite you back.

[00:36:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I'd be honored.

[00:36:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much.

[00:36:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And as long as we can talk a little brain science

[00:36:38] [SPEAKER_01]: on there any day.

[00:36:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely would love to

[00:36:41] [SPEAKER_02]: because I think one of the things that you were getting at

[00:36:43] [SPEAKER_02]: which was the neurodivergent people

[00:36:46] [SPEAKER_02]: and those populations really getting a part of something

[00:36:49] [SPEAKER_02]: and how it helps them

[00:36:50] [SPEAKER_02]: and how it helps their,

[00:36:52] [SPEAKER_02]: not just their feelings but their brain chemistry.

[00:36:54] [SPEAKER_02]: So I'd love to talk about that,

[00:36:56] [SPEAKER_02]: but not today.

[00:36:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much.

[00:36:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.

[00:37:00] [SPEAKER_02]: And thank you all for listening.

[00:37:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Take care and stay safe.

[00:37:03] [SPEAKER_00]: That was the HR Data Labs podcast.

[00:37:06] [SPEAKER_00]: If you liked the episode, please subscribe.

[00:37:09] [SPEAKER_00]: And if you know anyone that might like to hear it,

[00:37:12] [SPEAKER_00]: please send it their way.

[00:37:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for joining us this week

[00:37:15] [SPEAKER_00]: and stay tuned for our next episode.

[00:37:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Stay safe.