The Power of Listening: The Key to Success in Any Career w. Katie Finn

[00:00:00] Welcome to the Hire Her Podcast by Talent Collective, presenting conversations with inspiring women in talent. And get ready ladies, because this is the last time you're going to hear a man's voice on this show.

[00:00:13] Hi everyone and welcome to the Hire Her Podcast by Talent Collective. We are so thankful you're here today. Talent Collective is a community for women in the recruiting space, so welcome.

[00:00:25] My name is Krista Tan and I'm one of the co-founders of Talent Collective and I'm joined here by my co-host Natalie Stones.

[00:00:33] Good afternoon.

[00:00:35] Co-host and co-founder of Talent Collective.

[00:00:38] So wanted to say a big welcome and thank you to our guest today, Katie Finn.

[00:00:45] Katie is a director of talent acquisition at Dow Jones and has a really big role there.

[00:00:51] She is leading nine different areas there and does a ton in the recruiting ops space and managing just a huge workload, a huge team.

[00:01:03] We're really, really excited to have you here today, Katie.

[00:01:07] Tell us a little bit about yourself and your recruiting journey and what you're doing now.

[00:01:11] Yeah, hi.

[00:01:12] Thank you for having me.

[00:01:14] Great. Yeah, so my recruiting journey. I'll give you the short version. I was always like a news junkie as a child and interned in newsrooms when I was in college.

[00:01:26] And then when I got out of college, I worked in a newsroom for a couple of years and that was a lot of fun.

[00:01:33] I was an assistant. I was a writer. I was there during a lot of big events that happened.

[00:01:37] I met my husband in that newsroom. So a lot of things happened in the newsroom and it was a great job and a lot of fun.

[00:01:43] The news business is a busy business. The days can be wonky. The hours can be wonky and just sort of long term.

[00:01:50] I sort of knew that wasn't quite the lifestyle I wanted, but I wanted to sort of stay working with with people in close to news if I could.

[00:01:57] And a friend of mine was a recruiter and said, hey, I think actually you'd be really good at talent acquisition.

[00:02:01] So I had no experience. I got a job at an agency, which was great working in an agency in New York City.

[00:02:08] That was a really good training ground, really good learning experience because an agency really can learn to balance working with all different types of clients, all different types of candidates.

[00:02:17] Did that for a few years, went to a startup for a couple of years and then landed a job with Disney supporting ABC News, which was great.

[00:02:26] I was there for a little over a decade. And then I left that role about a little over about two and a half years ago with some folks from my former employer and moved on over to Dow Jones, which is still the news business.

[00:02:41] You know, we own the Wall Street Journal and other publications, IBD, Barron's, Market Watch.

[00:02:47] But my portfolio of the businesses I support are much broader and outside the newsroom as well in my current role.

[00:02:53] So that's, again, short version.

[00:02:56] I actually did not realize that Dow Jones owned all of those publications.

[00:03:01] So super interesting.

[00:03:03] Yeah, it's a really diverse organization in terms of the portfolio of business units and products and services that we offer.

[00:03:10] It was one of the things that attracted me to the organization.

[00:03:12] But yeah, one of them is our, we have our editorial properties and yeah, one of them is Wall Street Journal.

[00:03:15] Oh my gosh. Well, exciting. Cool.

[00:03:18] Yeah, you have a pretty diverse background then in different types of industries, which I'm sure you've learned a lot from, you know, bouncing around a few different types of industries.

[00:03:28] So really, really excited to hear more.

[00:03:31] So let's dive in a little bit.

[00:03:34] So right now is, I think, just a really unique time in recruiting where, you know, a lot of industries, especially in the kind of like white collar area, have had massive layoffs.

[00:03:48] And it's just, the labor market is just in a really interesting space.

[00:03:53] And there still can be, even though there's, I think, a lot more candidates on the market, it still can be a very competitive market.

[00:04:01] Companies are always looking for, you know, the best skill set and really wanting that top caliber of candidates.

[00:04:07] So can you tell us a little bit about maybe something you or your teams have tried that has worked, any secrets to success or anything that you'd like to share that might be, you know, a really great nugget or takeaway for our listeners?

[00:04:25] Yeah, no, and I agree with everything you said in terms of where the labor market is right now.

[00:04:29] It's definitely an interesting space.

[00:04:32] You know, secrets to success.

[00:04:34] Yeah, I mean, if I had the perfect secret sauce, you know, we'd probably be doing this podcast for my private island, but we're not.

[00:04:40] So, but, you know, I would say for me, when I ran my desk as a recruiter and in my role today at Dow Jones, you know, as a director is, you know, we're always looking for ways.

[00:04:54] Well, a couple of different things, but one of the ways and sort of big pushes for us now is like, how can we be more efficient, especially with the advent of all the new technologies that are coming on to the market advances in our ATS systems?

[00:05:08] Everybody, I don't care what industry you're in.

[00:05:10] I mean, everybody's talking about AI as we should be.

[00:05:14] That's the next tool of the future.

[00:05:16] I mean, I keep saying to people, AI was like in the mid-90s when people started talking about websites and we were all a little trepidatious and it was like you knew you had to do it, but didn't want to quite be the first one in.

[00:05:25] But we're at the same place right now with AI.

[00:05:29] So where can we be efficient while starting to integrate some of those tools into our day-to-day?

[00:05:34] But also, too, like we are at the early stages of AI and there are, I think, a lot of companies, I know mine does in terms of how do we integrate these tools?

[00:05:40] Where are they?

[00:05:41] What are we letting a machine do?

[00:05:42] What can we let a machine do?

[00:05:44] But what do we still want to do?

[00:05:46] I don't think any of us want machines making decisions for ourselves.

[00:05:48] So where's that balance?

[00:05:49] Where's that integration?

[00:05:51] I think the other piece in terms of efficiency or if you want to call it like the secret sauce is really digging in to looking at data and what the data can tell us.

[00:06:00] And the data is just so powerful.

[00:06:02] We have a, you know, I'm sure every company does, you know, we have a dashboard where I can log in every day and look at data and metrics on across the board.

[00:06:11] There's all types of data and metrics and it can all really tell you a different story when you're trying to dig in and look at ways to be more efficient or look at uncovering where there might be a problem.

[00:06:23] This is a very elementary example.

[00:06:25] But if I'm looking at actually not really, though, because if I'm looking at roles in a particular region, which I just was for one of our business units that were really taking a long time to fill.

[00:06:33] What's going on there?

[00:06:35] Is it, you know, does the hiring managers need more coaching?

[00:06:37] Do we have maybe a branding issue?

[00:06:39] Is it possibly about location?

[00:06:40] Do we have to start having location strategy conversations?

[00:06:43] So those would be the two key areas that I would say is like, how can we be more efficient?

[00:06:48] And really, there's so much data available, leveraging the data to help educate yourself as a leader, for example, in my position.

[00:06:55] And then that education helps to inform me strategically when I broaden out to my teams and the business leaders I support.

[00:07:02] Mm-hmm.

[00:07:03] Yeah.

[00:07:04] Amazing.

[00:07:04] Well, I love that.

[00:07:05] I'm always looking for ways to increase my knowledge about data and what data is even important to look at and how to slice the dice the data and making sure that, you know, data is clean, et cetera.

[00:07:21] So I'm sure that that's a huge part of what you do on a daily basis.

[00:07:26] Yeah.

[00:07:28] So, Katie, I love those secrets to success.

[00:07:33] But let's drill down a little bit more.

[00:07:36] Part of what we like to do on this podcast is really get vulnerable and, like, share vulnerable stories because our listeners, you know, are very likely going through some of their own vulnerabilities.

[00:07:48] I heard a couple of things in what you described as, like, potential challenges.

[00:07:53] Could you maybe expand more on, like, in a day of your life, in your role, in your company as a leader?

[00:08:00] Like, what are some of the top challenges that you're facing right now?

[00:08:05] Yeah.

[00:08:06] So in terms of top challenges, that's an interesting question.

[00:08:10] And, look, I think every leader at every organization faces some type of challenge.

[00:08:16] You know, I've yet to, you know, all the networking events we all go to and the people we talk to, yet to find anyone that's working at a place that's truly, truly nirvana.

[00:08:25] But for me and my role as a challenge, you know, we definitely, I would say, you know, change management.

[00:08:32] And what I mean by that is, you know, when I arrived at Dow Jones, there's a lot of new, in a really positive way, we're really scaling up on the people team in terms of new roles and growing the TA team and growing other functions within the talent people team that, you know, I think the organization was looking to do.

[00:08:50] So, and with those, with the incoming of new individuals and like remits in terms of how we want to upscale the people team in terms of how we support our business, how we support our clients across the board.

[00:09:00] And again, whether it's TA, comp, the people business partners, you know, when I say people team, there's actually a broad function learning and development.

[00:09:06] But for all of us, I think at a baseline level, it's when you're, all these new people are coming in and we're trying to impact change.

[00:09:13] It's really working with the business leaders to really be strategic about how we do that.

[00:09:17] Because I think, you know, it's, it's, it is a really personal thing.

[00:09:21] Some people are open to change and it doesn't bother them.

[00:09:24] Some people are okay with change, but they're a little hesitant.

[00:09:27] And some people just, you know, they don't, they don't, don't like change.

[00:09:30] So when, when you're doing a lot of that at once in all areas, it can be, I almost like there can be change fatigue.

[00:09:37] So I think that sometimes that can be a challenge for us in terms of, you know, from our standpoint, like any business leader, you know, we have these strategies we want to execute.

[00:09:44] We have these goals we want to, we want to meet, but because of my role on the, on the people team and what we're doing is impacting the business.

[00:09:51] We have to take pauses where we need to, you know, a sort of line I use across the office is always just like, is that really like a hill we want to climb?

[00:09:58] Hill we want to climb today?

[00:10:00] Or am I going to just, I always joke, like, am I going to stay in my cabin by the fire?

[00:10:03] Or is this something I'm going to get up and get my coat and boots on and start climbing the hill?

[00:10:07] Sometimes yes.

[00:10:08] Sometimes, sometimes no.

[00:10:10] But I have, you have to be strategic in sort of making those decisions.

[00:10:13] So I'd say big picture.

[00:10:14] That's part of the challenges that we have today, but it's a really good challenge to have because that means that we're doing our jobs in terms of looking at ways to evolve, to optimize, to be more strategic.

[00:10:27] And I will say like every business leader, I think welcomes, welcomes that.

[00:10:31] I don't think anyone's resistant, but a lot of change at once can be overwhelming for people and those changes impact them.

[00:10:37] And listen, day to day, they still have their goals and their strategies to meet.

[00:10:40] So there's a, there's a balance.

[00:10:42] There's a balance, there's a balance there.

[00:10:44] Yeah.

[00:10:44] It's important, you know, to keep innovating and that's what you're trying to do at the end of the day is, you know, keep Dow Jones innovative and try new things.

[00:10:55] But yes, we have experienced change fatigue in our lives as well.

[00:10:59] And it's not a fun place to be.

[00:11:02] Yeah.

[00:11:03] All right.

[00:11:03] Well, let's shift focus a little bit from the business, the recruiting business and go a little bit more personal.

[00:11:10] Um, so tell us, is there somebody in your recruiting career, somebody or something could even be, um, you know, a book or a resource or something like that, that's really changed the trajectory of your career.

[00:11:26] Maybe, um, a mentor of yours or someone you look really look up to, um, that's been really impactful in your recruiting career.

[00:11:36] So I would say there's no, I can't, can't think of any sort of book or piece of literature or website or course or anything along those lines.

[00:11:48] I mean, I think in general, like if you're in talent acquisition, you're in the people business.

[00:11:51] Um, so in that regard, I would say, yeah, there have been, there are a couple of people that come to mind that have certainly been impactful in terms of like my career and my trajectory.

[00:12:03] I mean, I've been really lucky that, and I'm kind of grinning because as I'm just trying to think back for the most part in my career of all the bosses I've had, um, I've had more good than bad bosses.

[00:12:15] I have had a bad boss and, you know, that's in the past, not to be discussed here.

[00:12:22] Um, I have had, uh, a bad boss, but again, I've been fortunate that, you know, I have mostly had, um, good bosses.

[00:12:28] You know, the first boss I had that hired me at the agency, um, guy by the name of Anthony that, um, I'm still, um, in touch with that.

[00:12:35] We still have lunch together once a year.

[00:12:36] We have our birthdays are within a week of each other.

[00:12:38] So we usually annually grab our birthday lunches together.

[00:12:41] Um, he, you know, he gave me a chance.

[00:12:43] Like I had no recruiting experience and he gave me a job.

[00:12:47] He, um, he, he taught me, he gave me opportunities.

[00:12:51] He introduced me to clients.

[00:12:52] He brought me to client visits.

[00:12:54] So he really was impactful and just giving me a chance.

[00:12:57] And, you know, look, I had the appetite and energy to learn, which I did, but he was willing to give it to me.

[00:13:02] And so it was sort of like the right place, right, um, right time in that, in that regard.

[00:13:07] Um, you know, my current boss, Lori has been my boss for, um, gosh, probably about almost 10 years now.

[00:13:16] Um, and she was, um, my boss for most of my time at, at Disney.

[00:13:21] Um, she's been really impactful, um, you know, for the same reasons, like, you know, for me in terms of being able to learn from her.

[00:13:29] Um, I didn't have a lot of, when I first got to Disney, I didn't have a lot of executive search experience and Lori did.

[00:13:35] So in terms of that impact for me, I'm like, look, Lori, she's had a lot of impact for me, but I would say just off the top of my head from a learning perspective, really learning the level and the acumen to do executive search, how to like conduct those searches, speak to those candidates.

[00:13:47] And not only that, the other side of it, as you're really doing that, the process of presenting those candidates to senior executive leaders and talking through those candidates, that entire process, almost like a very white glove.

[00:13:57] And I really learned, um, that from her.

[00:13:59] And a lot of what I learned, I always tell this to younger people coming in is starting in the industry and across any job, not just TA is like, if you see people work with just listen, just a lot of what I learned was just by listening, just by sitting in a room and listening and observing.

[00:14:13] And maybe after the fact asking you a question, but I did a lot of, um, listening and I learned a lot in that regard from, from Lori.

[00:14:22] And yeah, I grew, you know, I'm kind of smirking.

[00:14:23] Like I grew up a lot, um, with, uh, with Lori.

[00:14:26] She was definitely, you know, she's been patient with me a few times, which is, which is good and worked out.

[00:14:30] Cause you know, I work for her now again at Dow, at Dow, at Dow Jones.

[00:14:34] So she's really been impactful.

[00:14:35] Um, and the last person I would say, um, is, you know, our chief people officer at, at, at Dow, um, Diane DeCebo.

[00:14:42] Um, she was an executive on the people business partner side when I was at Disney and now of course in her role at Dow Jones.

[00:14:48] Um, I didn't work directly with Diane at, at Disney, but again, the opportunities at the times when we were in rooms together for meetings to see her at her level, um, you know, how she managed situations and, you know, times and meetings where I thought we should do this.

[00:15:03] And she did the opposite.

[00:15:04] And it was a really good learning for me to, to watch the opposite happen.

[00:15:07] Like, oh yeah, she's right.

[00:15:08] Like what?

[00:15:08] And I never, again, it's just about the learning and the listening and the opportunity to, um, observe.

[00:15:14] Uh, but also too with, um, you know, with, um, Diane at Dow Jones, the opportunity, she's very, um, supportive of new projects and new ideas and we can try things out.

[00:15:26] Um, and I get that support from Lori as well, which has been really, really, um, helpful in my, in my role that we can try things.

[00:15:33] And explore things.

[00:15:34] And if we don't end up executing on it, it doesn't end up something we go forward with like, Hey, that that's, that's okay.

[00:15:39] It's not a failure.

[00:15:40] We learned, we grow, we grew, we explored and we, we move on.

[00:15:44] Um, to have the ability and the freedom to do that is so, so important because especially where we are in the moment, going back to the technology piece.

[00:15:52] I think you have to have that flexibility to sort of move within the space and figure out what's right for the organization.

[00:16:00] That'd be so laser focused.

[00:16:01] We have to do AI this or AI that or data, this data, that like we have to, but let's explore, which let's try.

[00:16:08] And if it doesn't work, like that's okay.

[00:16:09] It's not a failure.

[00:16:10] It was a learning.

[00:16:11] Um, and that's a big message for me.

[00:16:13] And that's been really, really helpful.

[00:16:14] And my own growth and my learning to feel safe to, to do that.

[00:16:18] Sounds like you have quite the dream team of women leadership there.

[00:16:22] That's awesome.

[00:16:23] I've been surrounded by some very, um, smart and strong, um, female leaders in my career for sure.

[00:16:30] I have been very, very lucky.

[00:16:31] And Anthony in his role, um, again, like seeing something in me and being incredibly, um, supportive in terms of giving me opportunities to work with clients or taking me to client meetings with him and things like that.

[00:16:42] So for him to sort of give me that opportunity, um, as well, I have been lucky to have, um, been surrounded by these types of people.

[00:16:47] Um, yeah.

[00:16:49] So great.

[00:16:50] I love that.

[00:16:51] Thank you.

[00:16:52] If you think about yourself now in that leader role and having an opportunity to inspire or empower somebody, can you think of a scenario or two where you've made possibly that same similar lasting impact on somebody, whether it's a candidate or one of your employees or a peer, um, anyone that might come to mind a story.

[00:17:14] Uh, yeah, let me, I've had, um, I mean, I've, so in terms of anyone specific, I definitely had moments, um, at ABC news with candidates where I, um, I sort of, you know, I coached them a little bit and gave them where, and you have to feel, you know, you develop relationships with candidates.

[00:17:37] You have to feel, you know, kind of safe enough to do it.

[00:17:40] You don't want someone to take things the wrong way, but I have had moments with candidates where I've said, Hey, you know, listen, like hiring manager gave this feedback.

[00:17:46] So just so you know, going forward or just like, just sort of guided them a little bit.

[00:17:50] And I've had people be, um, incredibly grateful.

[00:17:53] I've had people send me notes on the side and be like, Hey, I took what you said.

[00:17:55] And like, I ended up getting a job at blah, blah, blah, blah.

[00:17:57] Or, um, they ended up getting the job.

[00:18:00] I, you know, that was, um, you know, leaving my job, you know, at, when I left ABC news was, was really hard in a lot of ways.

[00:18:05] I mean, I had this great opportunity at Dow Jones.

[00:18:07] It was hard.

[00:18:07] Cause I really loved, I was there for so long that I love my team there, but I also hired, there were people there that I'd hired as associate producers that were now VPs and V and VPs.

[00:18:18] And it's a lot of fun to like, really feel like you were a part of someone's career journey.

[00:18:23] And for them to feel like you were a part of it.

[00:18:26] Um, cause it's so important, right?

[00:18:27] Like we spend more time at work than we do in our own home.

[00:18:30] So really to feel like you made a positive impact on someone's, um, life and to see them like grow and succeed is just like, it's really, really, um, rewarding.

[00:18:39] And that was a big piece of my role, um, you know, at ABC news when I really, I ran my, my, my desk there, you know, at Dow Jones, you know, more specifically in terms of the impact.

[00:18:48] Yeah.

[00:18:48] I mean, I can't think of anything specific with my team, probably like little, little moments.

[00:18:53] I mean, I'm lucky I have a great team of the people that report to me at Dow Jones, but I try to really keep that in mind.

[00:18:59] Like I've had these positive experiences with these leaders that were, um, you know, they were patient with me at times.

[00:19:06] They were kind to me.

[00:19:07] They were open to, um, teaching me, teaching me things.

[00:19:12] And I have that top of mind really every day at my job with, with, with anyone really, but certainly specifically the people that report, report to me.

[00:19:23] And look, not everything is a learning opportunity, but they come up and where they are.

[00:19:28] I want to be mindful to make sure I'm giving those opportunities to my team and not just like learning in terms of me giving them feedback or guidance, but really thinking, thinking of top of mind.

[00:19:36] Well, like where could I maybe make space or room for someone to start to work on a special project or do this thing?

[00:19:44] Or is this something I could maybe, um, bring someone in on?

[00:19:48] Like I have, um, a high level search that's going to be occurring soon and I'm going to bring in somebody on my team to like work with me on that.

[00:19:55] So this person can start to learn and develop more on that, like executive level search.

[00:19:59] So those things are top of, those things are top of mind because quite frankly, if I'm strengthening my team where they can start to grow and do more, that gives me space to grow and do more.

[00:20:09] And like an elevate.

[00:20:10] So we all elevate, we all lift, um, to together.

[00:20:14] So I, I keep that, um, top of mind really.

[00:20:16] I would say like every single day, um, at, at, at work.

[00:20:20] Cause I, um, I am mindful of the fact that it was given to me.

[00:20:24] I'm lucky in a lot of ways.

[00:20:25] Like I know you could interview other people and they don't have those experiences with like work environments or leaders that they have.

[00:20:30] So in a lot of ways, I think I am lucky.

[00:20:32] Um, and it's, yeah, it might sound cheesy, but I think it is important to, to just to pass it on because it's the right thing to do.

[00:20:38] But also again, like if I'm elevating my team and helping them learn and grow, it, it also elevates, it also elevates me.

[00:20:46] Yeah.

[00:20:47] That's a really good point.

[00:20:50] Well, Krista, any other questions before we wrap up?

[00:20:55] I think that's it.

[00:20:56] I mean, I feel like I could talk to you all day, Katie, but we try to keep these relatively short.

[00:21:01] So, you know, people like to consume things in, in bite-sized nuggets nowadays.

[00:21:06] So, um, it's been, yeah, just such a pleasure to learn a little bit more about you and the work you do and some of the people that have really inspired you and, um, helped, you know, your career blossom and empower you.

[00:21:19] So, yeah, no, thank you so much for having me.

[00:21:21] Yeah, no, I could, I, you know, it's good to cut me off.

[00:21:23] I could, I could, you know, we could be here for the next like three, three hours.

[00:21:26] So it's good to have a cut off or someone, you know, pull the cord or something.

[00:21:29] Yeah.

[00:21:30] It's not the intention at all, but thank you, Katie, for joining us.

[00:21:34] Um, we look forward to seeing you around in the community more.

[00:21:37] For sure.

[00:21:38] Um, and for those tuning in, thank you for listening in on this episode.

[00:21:43] Um, tune in next week for another session with Hire Her and be sure to like, and subscribe.

[00:21:50] Um, we have the video version of this on YouTube and we are also on all the other podcast channels.

[00:21:55] So thank you everyone.

[00:21:56] Enjoy the rest of your week.

[00:21:57] Bye.