How service businesses can hire and retain frontline workers

[00:00:13] Welcome to Episode 82 of the High Volume Hiring Podcast. I am Steven Rothberg, the founder of College Recruiter Job Search Site, where we believe that every student and recent graduate deserves a great career and that it should be easy and inexpensive for employers to hire them. And we're going to be talking about some of that today. But before we do, Jeanette, great to see you.

[00:00:35] Great to see you too. I am Jeanette Leeds, HR, tech, entrepreneur, leader, exec, all that good stuff. And we are here today with Ryan Englund, who is, if you don't know, the best-selling author of Hire Better People Faster. And he's also the creator of the CoreFit Hiring System, which I personally want to know a little bit more about. So Ryan, thank you for being here today. I know you're super passionate about helping service businesses, hire and retain frontline hires.

[00:01:05] So we're so happy to have you here on today's show. Welcome. It's my pleasure to be here today. Thank you. Awesome. Well, why don't we kick it off with you just telling our audience a bit about you, Core Matters, the CoreFit Hiring System, the book, like, just give us an overview of like, what are you about? Yeah. So I always start with this. I grew up in a blue-collar household, which is why I'm so passionate about service businesses and construction companies and this blue-collar industry.

[00:01:32] And I watched my dad struggle crazy hours, crazy amount of days a week, because he just couldn't find good people. I was always said, I can't find good people. And you still hear that today. And it's like 45 years later, right? And as I grew up and watched from afar what he was going through, and I joined the corporate world and saw what they're doing and what they're going through, I learned that, you know, my dad's struggles were never that he couldn't find good people or he didn't know how to be a good manager.

[00:02:02] What no one ever taught him was how do you attract people, get them to join your team, and then ultimately trust them to take over the stuff, right? That's the biggest challenge. It's like, how do we find people we can trust? How do we build a team of people we can trust? And that root of trust has been, is a real passionate part for me, is how do we get owners to let go?

[00:02:23] How do we get leaders to let go? And so I started my own marketing company thinking that that might solve the problems because I've heard revenue solves a lot of problems. It's not true. It solves some problems. What I realized was that most entrepreneurs struggle with, no one ever taught them how to do this.

[00:02:47] No one ever, like we have leadership training and stuff like that, like how do I lead myself and motivate people? But no one ever taught them how do you source, how do you recruit, how do you interview, how do you screen, how do you hire? No one ever taught them these things. And it's just real technical processes. And a couple years ago, actually it was, yeah, I get to say two years ago now, my book came out. And it details my process for how we do this. The systems you need, the processes you need, how to have the conversations.

[00:03:15] And so it's a real good how-to manual on this whole thing. Awesome. So first of all, I want to make sure before we get further into it, the core fit hiring system. When I think of core fit, I'm thinking of like going to the gym, which most of us do a lot more in January than we do in December. Yeah. Was it a play on that? No, actually it was not. It was actually, if we get into it, core values. Okay.

[00:03:40] And so core values are those things that are so fundamental, they're just natural behaviors for you. You don't have to think about them. And so when we came up with the name for the company, Core Matters, what we're really saying is your core is what's most important inside the business. It's that fundamental employer brand, the behaviors, the vision, the purpose, why we get out of bed to do the things we do. And those were the things that really mattered. And so when we started thinking about what do we call this? We used to call it the right fit people system. I was like, ah, it's too much about.

[00:04:10] We're already talking about the core. Let's find people that fit our core. And that's what we really put an emphasis on. So we focus more on finding people that fit who we are and we'll teach them how to turn a wrench. We'll teach them how to operate the equipment. We'll teach them the skills. That's the easy part. What I can't do is teach someone to show up on time, you know, and to treat people with respect and those sorts of things. And so that's what we really put an emphasis on. I love that.

[00:04:37] And just as a quick comment, and then Jeanette, I'll get out of your way. The shit's like so used to this. Years ago, Dan Black, who at the time was in charge of recruiting for EY, for Ernst & Young, for the Americas, and now I believe is global, said to me something very similar. And he said that we can teach a candidate how to read a balance sheet. What we can't teach them is how to think critically.

[00:05:05] And EY, critical thinking skills, you know, you have to have that. So Jeanette, my apologies. Absolutely. No, it was so funny talking about Dan Black. I thought you were going to go back to when he was head of campus at EY, which was even before that. So we've been in this industry a while. So we were talking a bit in the green room before we started about, like, the different generations.

[00:05:28] So maybe you could just share with our audience about how, you know, how you can appeal to the next generation of workers in the service industry. Let's talk a little bit about that. Well, I can give you two things to stop doing. I love it. Stop making fun of them because they know better. They know you're doing it. And stop thinking they're going to be just like you because they're not. I found a paper a while back that they did a study of, it was back in the 60s.

[00:05:58] It was like the late 60s when the boomers were just starting to enter into the workforce. And did you know the average time they were with a job was like 12 months? And did you know that in their 20s, they had like seven jobs on average? No. It's not a generational thing. It's an age thing. It's a maturity thing. I love that. That goes against so many things that I've always heard. That that generation, like, they graduated from high school or college. You stay with one company. You're there until you retire. You get your pension.

[00:06:29] Yeah. Well, that's what happens when they finally settled down and everything else. And you remember, they married much younger back then and had kids much younger. And all of a sudden, when you've got to feed other people, you commit a little sooner. But they still switched jobs. They still didn't have the same work ethic. Like, they just forget those things. We talk about in construction, we talk to a lot of these boomers like, oh, these kids today. And I was like, you know what? Somebody took you under their wing and taught you this.

[00:06:57] You know, you've got to remember that. Well, you know they're getting older. They forget, right? I mean, I'm getting older. I forget. Where did I leave my car keys? Yes. Yes. But that's true. That's a great tip. Hi, I'm George Laroque. And I'm looking forward to exploring the critical trends shaping the future of work and technology with you over on the WorkTech podcast.

[00:07:26] Now, this podcast is a little different. I bring together industry leaders, innovators, and investors. And we go deep into market intelligence that matters to HR pros and tech providers alike. So give the WorkTech podcast a listen here on the WorkDefined Podcast Network. And please subscribe if you like it. See you there. Steven, I was going to ask, but you go. Your turn. Oh, no.

[00:07:54] It's a good episode when we're both itching to ask the next question, right? Go for it. Rapid fire. Let's focus, if we can, on frontline workers, right? Because the book is so much about that. First of all, for those who might not be really clear about how you define that, because I've seen different things, and especially when COVID started, right? To me, before COVID, a frontline worker was like the person in the ER that I went to and said, hey, I screwed up my elbow rollerblading. But it's more than that.

[00:08:24] When you talk about frontline workers, who were you talking about? And what do organizations need to do differently for those kinds of workers versus non-frontline workers? See, Jeanette, I got two questions in there. I saw that. Did you see what he did there? Yeah. Yeah. So, for the most part, frontline workers are going to be hourly. So, that's just kind of an easy way to think about there. But the way we define it is your frontline worker is the person who delivers your product

[00:08:54] or your service. So, in the hospital, for example, it's not just the person sitting behind the desk. It's the nurse, right? In manufacturing, it's the machine operator. It's the person that's actually delivering that product. They're making it. In a service business, it's the technician that actually goes into the home or the business, right? Often, these people are the ones that are putting their hands on the product or are visiting

[00:09:23] the customer. And so, they're very visible. And when that frontline worker doesn't show up, that customer doesn't get served or that machine doesn't get worked on. And so, product doesn't get delivered. So, they're absolutely critical to every organization. We often dismiss them and just think, oh, they're a set of hands or we just need someone else to cover the shift. But they are so critical. And we often need to hire a lot of them because as our business grows, we need more people.

[00:09:50] And what do organizations need to do differently for recruiting and retention, for a frontline worker than those of us who support that? Yeah. Yeah. So, I think one of the biggest issues I see, especially in larger organizations, is they have this belief that frontline workers are lesser than. And so, what they do is they have longer interviews. They have better onboarding. They have better training programs for their leaders and executives. But they're just like, oh, they're just an $18 an hour worker.

[00:10:20] Why would I invest in them? And so, they have this belief that they are different. That frontline is a group and we don't put a lot of effort in because, you know, we're going to turn them anyways. They're not going to stay very long anyways. And I always ask, is it cause or effect? Do you turn the people because of that belief? Or does that belief exist because they truly do turn? So, do you think that's why so many employers really are struggling with high volume hiring? Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I tell people this.

[00:10:50] So, we work a lot in the trades. And everybody says in the trades, nobody wants to work anymore. Yeah. And what I believe is that's not true. I agree with that 100%. What it is, is nobody wants to work for you. Yes. So, you need to take a look in the mirror and say, why don't people want to work for me? But that's really hard to do. I was talking to a staffing leader. Man, maybe it was a year ago in 2024.

[00:11:17] And we were talking about, it was a conversation on LinkedIn. We were talking about what your employer brand is and how to define that. And I had heard somebody in this industry, I think it was Susan Lamott, who's just brilliant at this stuff. And she says something like, the way to find out what your employer brand is, is just to ask your employees, when they get up in the morning, what causes them to go to work? Right.

[00:11:47] And for some places of work, it's literally because I'm going to get paid. And others, it might be my coworkers, the product we make, our mission, it varies, right? When I think of a typical hourly frontline worker with an employer that has that attitude, like, why should we bother? They're going to quit anyway. There's very little that I think causes them to get up in the morning.

[00:12:15] When you think, Ryan, of the clients that you have, employers, the ones who are reading the books that are thinking about improving their retention for these frontline workers, what are some things that they can do to give those employees a reason to get up in the morning other than just, I need to pay my rent? Well, I think one of the things they can do is, and this is a mindset shift that most need to take. They need to understand that when you hire a human being to do a job, you get the whole package.

[00:12:46] You get the home drama. You get the hopes, the goals, the dreams. You get their crazy upbringing, their crazy family. Like, you get the whole thing. And anybody that has this belief that you can say, hey, leave your drama at the door is basically saying, I don't value you as a whole human being. I only want this one piece of you. And if you can't separate, then I will find someone else.

[00:13:10] Well, I think that a lot of stuff that happened over the last few years with the pandemic made it very clear to employees we don't have to tolerate that kind of behavior anymore. Because when you separate us into essential and non-essential workers, what you're really doing is saying, you don't value me as a person. You only value me for the work I produce. And what's amazing is, is when you start valuing the person, productivity shoots through the roof. Retention shoots through the roof. Engagement shoots through the roof.

[00:13:39] It makes it easier for you to recruit because you've got raving fans going out into the marketplace saying it's an amazing place to work. I mean, it's so true. And I feel like this is sort of like time for last question. But even hearing you talk about like, you know, when you're not valued, right? Like I'm hearing that and I'm internally feeling like deflated, right? It's like, and I'm not going to want to be excited to go anywhere if I'm like feeling that feeling. So it's just that really resonates, really resonates.

[00:14:05] But let's just last question about recruiting and the recruiting department. They can't do it on their own, right? When especially you're hiring a ton. Let's just talk about why it's so important to have the help of others outside of the recruiting department. It's not just the recruiters. Well, I ask this question a lot when I do my workshops is how many people do you have in your team recruiting? Yeah. And they'll usually say, oh, one or two. And I'm like, how many people in your company? And they're like 200.

[00:14:35] Yeah. I go, well, that's the wrong answer. You have 200 people recruiting for you or you should have 200 people recruiting. Because what I realized a long time ago is that recruiting is actually not an HR activity. Recruiting is a marketing activity. When you think about it as a marketing activity, guess what? Every single person that works for you is a walking, talking billboard. Most of the time, if you knew what they were saying about your company, you probably wouldn't be too excited.

[00:15:05] So when you get really focused on saying, hey, you know what? We're here to help the recruiting department because we are going to start equipping our people to support them in solid employer brand, talking about purpose, talking about giving the right word of mouth marketing when we're out in the community, the employee referrals, all of that stuff. That's where it's really going to transform things. It's not just the two or three people that are sitting behind the ATS all day. It's the whole company is responsible for this.

[00:15:34] Ryan, words of wisdom. And very similar to one that we heard in the fall from a general in charge of the recruiting, Ammerheim, for the U.S. Air Force. And he was like, it's everybody. And forget 200. They've got, you know, 200,000 or whatever it is. But pleasure. Thank you so much. This has been very informative and really enjoyable. Thank you. Yes. Thanks, Ryan. Thanks, Steven. Until next time. Cheers, all.