Why Veterans Are Going Overseas for Psychedelics | PTSD Part 2

[00:00:00] Good morning, everyone, and welcome to the At the Waters Edge podcast. Today, we are talking about psychedelic drugs as part of our ongoing series discussing post-traumatic stress disorder and treatment and care for veterans. Now, psychedelic drugs have gotten a lot of hype in the media recently. We saw President Trump sign an executive order with Joe Rogan at the White House, supporting their testing and evaluation as a treatment for veterans with PTSD. We've been hearing about them in the Impendent Podcast space for years now.

[00:00:27] And more and more veterans have been sharing stories about how psychedelic drugs have been critical to treating symptoms of PTSD, depression, anxiety, TBI, and other ailments. So what are these drugs? How did the veteran community discover them? Why, if they work so well, are they not part of mainstream treatment already? To help sort through this, today we're talking to Jesse Gould from the Heroic Hearts Project,

[00:00:55] a veteran nonprofit dedicated to providing access to psychedelic drugs as a treatment for PTSD. Jesse himself is a veteran from the 75th Range Regiment who found that psychedelic drugs were an effective treatment for his own PTSD symptoms. He decided to take that and scale it for others. Apparently, he's been getting some great results, but I gotta ask, is that even legal yet? I guess we'll have to ask Jesse. Let's get to it. Well, good morning and welcome to the podcast. How are you doing today, man?

[00:01:25] Doing pretty good. I actually just got back from a lot of travel, so still kind of recovering from the jet lag, but overall doing well. Nice. Was the travel associated with your organization? Were you doing some fun stuff? No, we had a wedding in Indonesia, actually. So we were over there just with friends and had a great time, but it's like 12-hour difference. So my, like, circadian rhythm gets in mid-afternoon and I'm just, like, droopy-eyed all day.

[00:01:53] Nice. Well, hey, so you run this awesome organization called the Heroic Hearts Project, and definitely want to talk about that. But before we get to the nonprofit that you run, can you share with people a little bit about your military background and experience?

[00:02:07] Yeah, absolutely. So I joined the military after college, but ended up enlisting and got into, went through selection, went to Ranger, first bat, 75th Ranger in Savannah, Georgia. And during that time, I was part of the mortar platoon and I became a section leader. So in charge of a bunch of junior rangers and training in combat situations.

[00:02:34] And during my experience, we did three combat tours in Afghanistan. I was in various spots. So overall, learned a lot, was challenged by it, thought what I was seeking from it. You know, had some great experiences, some very challenging experiences. And I generally consider myself pretty lucky. There wasn't one or a few pivotal events that I thought, oh, this is going to mess me up for the rest of my life.

[00:03:03] But as a lot of people who have served, and especially in these high capacity sort of jobs, no matter what, there's always wear and tear, right? Both the physical, mental health, and other stuff that I kind of took for granted until it showed its face when I got out of the military and just had some negative habits that I just couldn't avoid. I don't know what you're talking about. You know, I did years in Special Forces. I feel great.

[00:03:32] I have no problems, no aches and pains. Life's groovy. So I don't think it's a Ranger-register problem. I don't know what you're talking about. Yeah, exactly. I'm lying through my teeth. Anyway, so you go from Ranger-regiment, you get out, and you're now running the Heroic Hearts Project. What is that? Yeah, so Heroic Hearts Project is a 501c3 nonprofit that I founded in 2017.

[00:03:57] And basically, it sort of reflects my own struggles with mental health and finding alternative ways to work with that, get over, overcome it, heal from it. That just wasn't offered in the U.S. That wasn't offered by the VA. So when I got out, I got out about 2014, I believe.

[00:04:23] And immediately after the military, you know, traveled, celebrated my freedom, went to a lot of different spots. I was also trying to figure out what was the next chapter of my life. What did I want to do? Who did I want to be? And overall, you know, figuring this stuff out and some of the mental health stuff was coming up. You know, I was experiencing a lot more anxiety. I was eventually diagnosed with PTSD. I'd have bouts of depression.

[00:04:51] Alcohol was definitely an unhealthy part of my life to deal with this sort of stuff. But overall, I was just like, oh, I'll figure it out. You know, we all come from this high-octane sort of thing and probably come out still young and, you know, with confidence that, like, what can stop you. And it's always yourself that can stop you. But I ended up in, like, a finance job in Tampa, Florida. Overall, a pretty good job. And I was doing well. I was high-performing. But on the inside, I was just a mess, right?

[00:05:21] I would get home and just have, like I said, these bouts of massive anxiety. I would sort of abuse alcohol to overcome it. I would have insomnia. I would have hypervigilance in public places. But I just kind of kept pushing it off. And eventually, the VA did diagnose me with PTSD and some other stuff as well as the physical aches and pains and damages and all that kind of fun stuff. And, you know, I was fortunate that I saw the red flag.

[00:05:49] It was like, okay, whatever, even though I'm doing well on the outside, like, if this continues on, I'm going to just end up in a bad situation, right? I just knew I was living unhealthy. I knew I was also just putting myself in, like, risky situations. There's kind of this underlying nihilism in my life of, like, you know, I'll put myself up against whatever. And what happens happens, right? You know, there's many ways to get to an unhealthy end. And I was fortunate that I saw that.

[00:06:17] I was like, something's not right. And unfortunately, when I went to the VA, I was just like, I just want to talk to somebody because I'm clearly not finding the answer to this. But it was just very clear off the bat of, you know, the program that they had would have me on medication and realistically have me on medication for the majority of my life, right? Like, PTSD tends to be sort of a life sentence with how they sort of treat it now. And I, you know, not knocking medication.

[00:06:46] There's a time and place, and it works well for a lot of people. But I was 28, and I didn't want to be like, okay, this is my life. I'm just maintaining these issues I have as opposed to overcoming it. And I didn't want to be on these medications that have all sorts of possible downstream negative effects. And I just had this realization of like, there has to be another way. It can't just be this or that, right? And so I walked away from the VA very disappointed.

[00:07:12] I had, you know, as many of us do, positive experience with VAs, but a lot of negative, frustrating experiences with them as well. And I didn't know what to do. So, like, my symptoms were just getting worse and worse. I was just getting into those spots of like, this is not sustainable. I just knew I was down a bad path. Did they offer you like cognitive behavioral therapy or other treatments? Or was it just, we're going to put you on antidepressants or something like that?

[00:07:41] Essentially, the discussion was, because I saw the social worker, that was sort of the intake. And I was pretty adamant of like, hey, my first step is not medication. Like, I want to talk to a professional, I would like to do cognitive behavioral therapy. And she gave me like this pamphlet. And there's all those stuff I was already doing of like, you should journal, you should do breath work and meditate. And you should do, you know, get out. And I was trying all that kind of stuff. And it was helpful, but just not to the degree that I was overcoming.

[00:08:09] And I was like, hey, well, I'd like to speak to somebody. And she's like, yeah, what you told me, I can get you to see somebody right away. But realistically, though, if you, if they say that they recommend that you should be on medication, anti-anxiety, antidepressants, which they likely will. And you say no, then there's only so many therapy sessions that they can give you.

[00:08:29] So if you like deny part of the descriptive dynamic, then, you know, I was pretty sure of her being honest, but it was like that of like, if you don't go with our full protocol, then we can give you three to four therapy sessions. And you're kind of on your own after that. And I was like, that's a waste of my time. Yeah, and I believe a full like therapeutic dose of cognitive behavioral therapy, like the traditional method is like 52 weeks, like weekly sessions. Like it's a year of therapy once a week.

[00:08:59] And that was not like for me, it was pretty much of like, you're going to do this and medication. Otherwise, we'll give you a few sessions. Otherwise, kick bricks. I already had that experience with the VA too, because I hurt my back pretty, pretty significantly in the military during, during a deployment. And I have to get like adjusted. I still do out of, out of pocket and like go through a chiropractor that I go like monthly.

[00:09:28] And I went to, fortunately, this VA actually had a chiropractor, but it was the same sort of thing. Like, hey, unless there's some sort of progress that we can document, we can only give you four sessions. So I got my four chiropractic sessions from it. And they're like, okay, that's spell. And that's sort of, I forget what the term is, but there has to show some sort of degree of progression, right?

[00:09:51] That they, they're not equipped to just like have you talk through stuff and that they, they have to go through their like scripted pathway. And so, yeah, for me, it was just, I, I, I went there in earnest of, I just want to talk to somebody. And it was just very clear of there's going to be this sort of dynamic that you don't have to, but you should take medication. Damn. Okay. All right.

[00:10:19] So what, what happens after that lovely, lovely encounter with the good folks at the VA? So, yeah, just kind of, and this is after, you know, I can, I'm sure we can all talk about many issues that I've had. And, you know, I had to put a Freedom of Informations Act for my medical records from the VA at one point, which was fun. I'm laughing because I have so many stories I could tell in parallel, but this. Yeah. Yeah. I can tell this some other time. I walked away and I was just like, yeah, I guess I'm on my own.

[00:10:48] But I also, there's no other answers out there. Like if the VA doesn't have in, that, that is, it's not necessarily the VA's fault. That is the prescribed thing for PTSD for, for a lot of these mental health issues. And so I went back to my, my job. I was, it was like international financial analyst. That was also sort of wearing thin. Uh, I think a lot of veterans come to this of going from, you know, these high action to a corporate job and you're just sort of banging your head against the wall.

[00:11:17] And it was one of those things of like cat paws on the keyboard to pretend I was doing work when I was like done at 2 PM kind of stuff. Uh, and like that, the job was wearing on me. It was became pretty clear that the corporate life was not, uh, what was fulfilling for me and giving me purpose. And so it was just, everything was just not sustainable, right? Like there, there's nothing I could really grab onto at that point in my life that was like, oh, this is going great.

[00:11:43] It was just, everything was, you know, reinforcing this already underlying trauma. And fortunately around that time, I, you know, just while I was working, uh, listening to a podcast, uh, it was like old Rogan, somebody on his podcast talking about ayahuasca. That point, I wouldn't say it was like anti-drug, but I was proud that I never did drugs, you know, never smoked pot, never did psychedelics, had many opportunities.

[00:12:10] But it was like, one, I have my own vice with alcohol to, you know, I don't, I didn't consider myself one who does drugs. Right. And kind of this like dichotomy in my mind of if you do that, then you're one of those people that does drugs. Uh, and I viewed psychedelics like that, right. This other degree of escapism. And so, you know, I kind of listened just more casually entertaining. And the person was on another crazy trip and fighting dragons and all this kind of stuff.

[00:12:36] And that's always what put me off psychedelics too, is like, okay, cool. This fake sort of thing of stuff that doesn't matter. Uh, but for whatever reason, I think especially with the ayahuasca discussion, it kind of planted this seed in my mind at a time when I was struggling and looking for some sort of, uh, you know, life preserver kind of thing.

[00:12:59] It opened up this opportunity, this, this possibility that, hey, not all substances are how they've been exposed to you. They're not all like recreational. Because ayahuasca, for those who don't know, is a combination of two Amazonian plants that when combined cause a very powerful psychedelic. It's a leaf and a vine bark, uh, that is frequent in the Amazonian cultures, a lot of tribes throughout the Amazon.

[00:13:26] So Brazil, Columbia, Ecuador, Peru. Uh, and this has been done in tradition for thousands of years for these various tribes for spiritual, mental, physical health, right? So there's this deep, rich cultural history throughout the Amazon of this and not done in recreation, right? Done for real purposes.

[00:13:51] And, you know, whatever people's biases or whatever, it still opened up this perspective of like, oh, well, there's people, these traditions that have been doing this for a thousand years. Maybe there's something to that, right? Like, I'm not, I'm not the smartest person in the world and I know Western medicine has often failed and tends to come in with a lot of hebris and doesn't, you know, necessarily know everything.

[00:14:12] And so it kind of opened up this possibility of like, okay, well, if I, this is interesting and there are these testimonies of people that have been helped by this that maybe if I want to explore this, I'm not the person who does drugs, but I'm, you know, there's this cultural dynamic to it. And so for whatever reason that that was enough of a gap in my brain, the smarter parts of my brain, I was like, hey, dude, you need to do something that I didn't know what it was, but maybe this is something that could help, right?

[00:14:40] A little bit of a leap of faith, but it was something and I needed something at that point. And so, like I said, I was kind of done with that job. I was, there's nothing in my life at that point that I was like worth preserving, which is not a great situation being when you're already struggling. I was like, all right, well, I need to figure myself out. Let me give this a shot and let me explore what this is, you know, like unconventional issues need unconventional solutions kind of thing.

[00:15:10] Right. And so I went to Peru, did my own due diligence. This was late 2016, early 2017. So far less, if you go online right now and you look for like psychedelics and recommendations, there's a lot more information than there was. Even though it wasn't that long ago, about nine years now, there's more chat forums and this person saying, hey, go here. There really wasn't that much of a how-to guide. It was kind of like still jumping in the deep end and going there.

[00:15:40] And so fortunately, I found a spot that in Peru that I felt somewhat comfortable with. It seemed to be pretty professional about it and wasn't just trying to get your money or it wasn't drug tourism. And, you know, I signed up for that and went to Peru to explore this ayahuasca treatment. Wow. So you go down there, you try the mambo-jambo. And so do you see dragons, elves? What's this kick like? Yeah.

[00:16:09] So never doing a psychedelic, it was just like not a pleasant experience. So anybody who tells you that psychedelics are all fun and happy hippie times are lying to you. This was like possibly one of the hardest things I did. Definitely kicked my ass. So over the course of a week, it was four different ceremonies, four different nights. And each night just got worse and worse. And it was just wasn't even for me visuals.

[00:16:34] It's just putting myself in all my years of built up fear and anxiety and discomfort and throwing it all at me at once. And the sort of like hellish landscape that, again, didn't have visuals, but just felt like the worst of the worst and all the feelings, all the discomfort. And that lasted a couple. Each night was sort of a new experience. I was just like, I don't.

[00:17:02] The point where I was like, I don't know if I'm going to survive this. Like, like I felt like it was going to drive me insane. But I was like, I'm also here for a reason. And within that, then I finally had this breakthrough that kind of helped me push past all this like anxiety and put me into this sort of calm, serene spot. And then brought in like a lot of messages and all this kind of stuff. And towards the end of it, just felt like reset, for lack of a better word.

[00:17:30] But not just on processing some psychological stuff, but also as the mortar men. And, you know, I'm sure you have similar stuff around a lot of explosive forces, which they've shown now causes micro brain damage that when built up and the chance to heal actually causes other sort of cognitive issues. And it felt like, oh, my brain's actually this is how a brain should function, you know, in that immediate sort of comparison of before.

[00:17:59] So it felt like it worked on me on many different levels. And, you know, still skeptical, but it was like, OK, I don't know what the hell that was. I don't have the words to describe it. I was also surrounded by other people who had similar experiences and helped them, you know, reconnect with family trauma or overcome certain things that they're going through. So I was like, OK, there seems to be something here, but I don't know. I'm skeptical still. But to my surprise, the benefits still lasted, right?

[00:18:28] Like the depths of anxiety or panic attacks that I would have before or the degrees of depression just no longer work, no longer occurred again. You know, still have the normal human anxiety. Some days you're a little bit more or, you know, some days you're sad. But then also like the hypervigilance of before I need like a few shots just to be in a public setting just because it would be like, you know, on alert.

[00:18:56] And after that, no longer had that same sort of stigma trigger kind of thing. And so I was still traveling because I essentially left my life in Tampa behind. And fortunately, I was like I had that process, that space to actually like what the hell was that? Was it just, you know, jungle medicine that doesn't do anything or was there actually something there?

[00:19:21] And I just couldn't like talk away the positive effects that I just kept experiencing or the new baseline essentially that I had. And I started sharing my story with other guys I served with. Some were still in, some were out. And by that time, you know, it was sort of this Facebook thing of like every month there's somebody else I served with that had taken their own life of like, hey, did you hear about Joe?

[00:19:47] And it was just like this like week after week, month after month of like, shit, there's something wrong here. And even the guys I talked to, a lot of them were, you know, struggling with the same sort of stuff or, you know, a lot of it like kind of quite professional like, no, I'm okay. Yeah, I drink far too much and my life's falling apart, but I'm good, man. There's other people that's worse.

[00:20:08] And so that was sort of the inspiration of Harold Kars Project just because even with my positive experience and I started looking in, there's some very early baseline evidence as to why it might work. Like on a neurological basis, on a therapeutic basis. That sort of backed up what I was experiencing. And then the more I looked into it, the more like, hey, there might be something here. But there also was no broader support.

[00:20:36] You know, I kind of had to go in blind and figure out for myself and probably hit some road bumps that I could have handled better. Or, you know, what they call integration, the post dynamic definitely could have taken more advantage of that. And so that was really it. It was like, I don't know who this is for. I don't know how many people it's for.

[00:20:54] But if you're like me and you've tried a lot of different resources and outlets, why not give something else a shot if it potentially the difference between, you know, you living or not living or surviving or thriving? And that was sort of the dynamic of like, hey, if I'm going to talk about my experience, I also have this obligation to make sure people are set up for success. Right.

[00:21:18] Because I didn't want to tell people I serve with and then show up at a random South American airport asking for drugs and, you know, whatever outcomes come from that sort of thing. And so for a car, it's essentially was out of one talking to veteran in a way that makes it approachable because even at that time, I was like, oh, psychedelics, are you a hippie now? Like, yeah, this kind of dynamic. What's that like when you show up to a bunch of dudes like 75th Ranger Regiment?

[00:21:45] You know, people ask me about different units in the military and Rangers will come up like, what's the Ranger Regiment? It's like, well, the Ranger Regiment is basically a light infantry unit. They're just the best in the world at what they do. Like, what's light infantry? I'm like, they kill people and break things. That's infantry. And the Ranger Regiment is the best infantry unit in the world. And they wake up every day and their job is just to do that and be better than everyone else. And they're pretty fucking good at it. So what's it like when you walk into a group of folks like that and be like, hey, guys, I used to be here.

[00:22:11] And let me tell you about this great thing called Amazonian Wacky Tobacky that might help you out with some stuff you got going on. Don't listen to Doc. What's that interaction like? That's a hell of a pitch. Definitely mixed. But the reason that I actually started the nonprofit is because after a lot of discussions with guys I knew that were in regiment, but also guys that ended up, you know, putting their packet for SF and other organizations.

[00:22:39] It was really the reaction I got was more, hey, man, that sounds wild. But like, if it works, it works. Right. And I kind of started to understand that that's a very veteran and special operations mentality. Right. Like you can plan, plan, plan. But what makes all these organizations great is they're adaptable. Right. Like nothing ever goes perfectly to plan when you're on the ground, but you're trained to adjust and overcome and complete the mission.

[00:23:07] Uh, and I feel like when I talk to people about it, like, yeah, it seemed wild, but if it works, it works. Right. Like, who am I to say that that doesn't work? And there is, there does seem to be a lot of maybe not skeptical, but like people who are not indoctrinated in this of like, yeah, if it works, why not do that? And that's more that I found more and more. A lot of veterans are like that of like, there's sort of a distrust of the system because we've kind of seen the inner workings of the system. Right.

[00:23:37] I mean, no, that's not the be all end all. Uh, and you know, like, Hey, if this, this, this other thing, and that there's a sort of empowering dynamic of the psychedelic experience too, because it's putting you in a situation where you can fight your own dragons. Like you can go into the dark cave and figure out what is there. And so, I mean, and there was this generational dynamic too, right? Like old guard or people that I talked to, they'd be like, uh, yeah, hell no, I'm not doing that.

[00:24:05] But there's a lot of people who are actually pretty open to it. And so like at first, just going to like some of the ranger Facebook groups or what have you, it was a little bit like crickets, but I got some early adopters and was actually able to host my own group pretty quickly. Um, you know, I wasn't like super well connected in the philanthropy space. And so it was just a lot of cold calls and like, Hey, I'm Jesse and I'm doing this. And I'm like, uh, okay, what are you doing? What does that work like?

[00:24:35] You're reaching out to folks and you're basically pitching them. Hey, I want to take a bunch of vets who've done some crazy shit and send them off to get some Amazonian wacky tobacco because it's going to make them feel better. Uh, please hand me money. By the way, my name is Jesse. Like I used, I used to be, I was a vet. I am a vet. And then I went to Florida and did financials in the international market. Then I went to Peru and got some mind altering shit. Um, give me your money so I can help other veterans. Like, how do you do that?

[00:25:00] Yeah, I don't, it was just, uh, the grind, you know, it really was just cold calling, emailing people, getting a lot of rejections. Uh, it was, it was actually more adopted by the veterans first before the people that had money. And oftentimes early on the early adopters in terms of funding it were people who had their own psychedelic experience, right? So it wasn't as big of a lift there, but it was hard to find them. Right.

[00:25:24] So it wasn't, so like I come from, you know, uh, the Kennedy's or the Rockefeller's or something, you know, it's not like I tapped my, uh, family network and, and ability to fund, like to donate pretty early on. Or like friends and family, there's only so many times you can ask your friends and family for a $5 donation before they just start blocking you on different, but they've all been great.

[00:25:48] But yeah, I mean, it was the first few years, um, was just really sort of that grind and kind of figuring it out and getting attention. And then also just documenting, uh, the, the veterans that we were able to, to serve. Um, when the big shift actually happened, uh, around 2018, 2019, so then a few things started hitting. So one, there's a Michael Pollan book, how to change your mind.

[00:26:14] Uh, so Michael Pollan, for those who don't know, has just been a very well-respected author and he has like a Netflix show in the past. He's done stuff about like food and all this other kind of stuff, but he did a book on psychedelics. Um, and the benefit of that is because he's very much like a mainstream author that gets to the heartland of the U S you know, it's like a book you'll find at the airport. Uh, he's a great writer.

[00:26:41] And so it really did like a great sort of one-on-one on psychedelics and really opened it up to a broader marketplace. At the same time, around the same time, Johns Hopkins opened up a psychedelic, uh, institute, uh, like a side school to study, uh, psychedelics. So Johns Hopkins put its name behind, uh, these substances.

[00:27:05] And at the same time, uh, another organization maps was doing, had, had some great data around MDMA, which is the chemical of FTC kind of in the same bucket, but also showing some great results for psychedelics. So at the end of like 2018, 2019, that's when all of a sudden sort of the light came on. Right. And then a lot more people are paying attention to this than before. And then actually this possibility of like, Hey, these aren't just mind altering crazy sort of things.

[00:27:33] There might be something there, there. And I think for me it was fortunate because I got to see sort of navigate the room when it was dark and kind of get in the sort of baseline foundation the hard way.

[00:27:46] And then when it kind of started getting broader, then we were in a pretty good position and already had some of our systems figured out and have that, that there really gave us a good foundation to take advantage of this sort of new wave, which has really, uh, sort of accelerated in the past nine years.

[00:28:38] And then we were just, uh, uh, uh, good timing or luck or whatever the universe has in the store, uh, versus anything else. But it also gave us a chance to really, uh, establish a good system, a good protocol before we're like off to the races. So how do you approach risk mitigation while you're getting this protocol? You know, trusted partners, where do people to go, send people, getting that sorted out?

[00:29:04] Because you are taking, you know, veterans and sending them overseas to receive treatments they can't get here in the U.S. Like you had a positive experience. I imagine these drugs have all sorts of unknown effects for all sorts of people, not well researched. You know, how do you approach that from a risk mitigation standpoint? Is it just, hey, nothing else is working. It's either this dark hole of depression and despair or try this thing and maybe it works. Last resort, we're pulling the reserve chute during a crisis. And so fuck it, we got to go.

[00:29:33] Or are there more deliberate steps? Do you piece it together over time? Yeah, I mean, that's, that's sort of been the, the, the challenges. One, we have, we've had to set up sort of a parallel system outside of the accepted medical system, right? Because these are still federally legal in the U.S. They're not allowed. The way we were able to run the nonprofit is by connecting veterans to countries where these are legal. And then they have that choice to partake in it.

[00:29:59] Now you can actually go to states within the U.S., Oregon, Colorado, and do still a side of mushroom treatment because of states' rights. It's still federally legal, but you have the ability in those states. But we, you know, I always, it's one of those things of like, you want to do more good than harm, right? If anybody, if I set up anybody there and they came away worse or suicidal or they take their own life afterwards, like, that would be possibly game over for me.

[00:30:28] Like, that's the last thing I want to do, right? I've like caused somebody to accelerate or go down that. So I've always just, from the get-go, really took it seriously, did my due diligence on reading the research, what we know, what we don't know, where are the risks, and then really focusing on quality over quantity.

[00:30:48] And it's, when you're in this dynamic, and I've seen certain organizations that really just focus on the numbers of like how, like almost machine of how many can we get through? Hey, we've done this and this and this without the focus on quality. And it's an easy trap to get into, right? Especially if you're a nonprofit because then you're like, hey, look how many people we served.

[00:31:10] But for us, it's always been the focus on quality and the focus on safety, even if it means like less veterans we're serving because we are this pivotal spot that we have to do right. Like, it's hard too because, you know, our wait list right now is like 2,000. And, you know, as much as I want to find like an easy answer to get them, we need to show up to everybody and make sure that they have the best possible experience.

[00:31:35] We're fortunate too with psychedelics that if you actually look at the risk profile of say like a mushroom, magic mushroom psilocybin, it's actually, I'll go into this a little bit, but it's actually pretty safe. You can't overdose on a mushroom. You can't like die from taking too many mushrooms. It's just never heard of. There's not really an addiction dynamic to it.

[00:32:02] You don't get addicted to these things, the same you might to heroin. And there are certain mitigation things that you can really make it fairly safe. And so that's really what we worked on is one, informing people and making sure that they're in a good spot. And so that was really, you know, we couldn't work with from the get go, actively suicidal people or people who are like on the far end of PTSD that they couldn't even fly.

[00:32:29] But people who kind of like myself were getting on, you know, working and all this kind of stuff, but knew something was wrong and maybe struggling, but like be functional in their day to day life. So sort of that middle ground of like definitely have some stuff that they could address, but still relatively functional. And then especially over time, we really developed a robust intake process and support system.

[00:32:55] So from the get go, we were one of the first, we were the first organization to offer this to veterans, first nonprofit in the psychedelic space for veterans. And then also creating some of the first integration support programs out there and integration, meaning that they have support from the beginning to end. Right. So veterans who would come to us, one, we'd figure out where they're at and double check, making sure there's no contraindications with their medication.

[00:33:23] But then we had always set them up and it was at first myself and another guy, Jared, that would be their coaches of like, hey, this is what, you know, this is what we don't know. Are you, you know, this, these are sort of the open about the risks, all this kind of stuff, but be there to sort of hold their hand through it. And then also afterwards, how's your experience? Okay. What lessons, like, what are you having challenges and just be there for them from beginning to end. Right. The thing that I didn't have to make sure that they're, they're good and they have somebody to talk to because it's oftentimes a lot to process.

[00:33:53] So, like I said, now we've developed a pretty robust intake that's actually surpasses what's like mandated in state regulated systems like Oregon or even some other clinics. And so we have sort of a person check in, making sure that one, you know, their application stuff's correct, but also just give them somebody to talk to and just make sure you can kind of get a sense where somebody's at. Like if they're, it's not a good time or we don't want people that are just going for easy answers because this is a hard process.

[00:34:23] We do sort of a medical evaluation that makes sure physical, mental health kind of stuff are considered. And then if there's some ambiguity on their sort of mental health dynamic, do a third sort of check on that. And so with these medicines and it varies whether it's ayahuasca, psilocybin, substance called ibogaine, they have the sort of different things. But the main things are certain medications like SSRIs can contraindicate with some of them.

[00:34:51] So you have to make sure what the person's on if there's any issue there. And if there is an issue there, then it might be a timing thing. Are they able to wean off of it with the help of their therapist? If not, then can we provide other support outside of this? The physical considerations, you know, if you have heart issues, these are very stressing on the body.

[00:35:13] If you have other like major surgeries and then mental health issues, if you have potential schizophrenia, background of that, psychosis, personality disorders, all that kind of stuff. So really what we found is if you have a robust intake and you actually we have now like a six week build up to it,

[00:35:32] you actually substantially reduce the risk of these treatments because one of the inherent dynamic of them that they're far less risky than other medications. But then you're also finding somebody that one is healthy and that two is willing to like sort of go into it. Because at this stage, you want somebody that's willing to to really go into the challenge. Like I said, it's like one of the hardest things I have experienced. But that makes sense, right?

[00:36:01] Like we're subject matter experts at compartmentalizations, squishing stuff down a little box. And so it makes sense that like when that's starting to come up, you're going to be like, nope, nope, nope, don't want to deal with that. Like not come back to those family issues. And so that's where that sort of like friction hits you. And that comes about in very uncomfortable and hard ways through this sort of experience.

[00:36:25] But we need the people to like be committed to going through the full process because then that's how you overcome it. If you just go in and you're just like, oh, that was hard. I'm going to go home. You know, then you're kind of leaving yourself sort of in the sort of in between state, which is not ideal. Yeah.

[00:36:46] So what you're describing makes a lot of sense to me because it fits the approach that particular special operations personnel approach solving complex problems and doing risky missions. You know, you push decision making down to lowest possible level. You make a set of assumptions. You verify those assumptions and turn them into facts as you go. You refine your techniques. You take incremental risks until you get to a decision point, mitigate appropriately. And then at a certain point, make a go, no go call once everyone's informed. All right.

[00:37:15] Review it, reiterate it, improve it. Great. That's an expert process that a lot of people don't recognize. But so I'm wondering. Because what you're doing, essentially, I don't know. My wife's going to ask me about this. She's a nurse practitioner. You are a non-licensed medical professional who's reviewing literature, developing treatment recommendations and then facilitating access to treatment for patients. As you go through this, are you working with other clinicians?

[00:37:44] Is it just going off the publicly available research that anyone can access if they know where to look? That is peer-reviewed. Fun fact, a lot of medical practitioners have to review the research that underlapins their recommendations. You know, did you get blowback from folks like the VA or whoever saying, you're not even qualified to have an opinion on this? What the hell are you doing? Yeah. Yeah. And so I'll correct that a little bit because I think it's important of where we stand within this process.

[00:38:13] Because by no means are we ever trying to put ourselves in the position as sort of outside medical providers or prescribers or anything. We're not – people are not coming to us and we're saying, okay, let me check your charts and this is what you should take. Five doses of ayahuasca and, you know, go home and have some – have a meal or something.

[00:38:33] We're more set into really this sort of harm reduction, risk reduction dynamic to set people up for success because the majority of people from the get-go who come to us are generally at their wit's end and they are seeking out alternatives.

[00:38:53] And that's kind of what I saw from the beginning of these – these are effective and if the word gets out, more and more people are going to seek them on their own. But there's not these – there's not the infrastructure out there to support them, right? So it is this sort of fine line because on one side we are talking about this and educating people, but we're educating it to people who are like tried everything else. And, you know, there's so many hopeless veterans out there, right?

[00:39:22] And it's not that hard to find it and you just see that by the suicide rate and, you know, even doing, you know, chat forums and stuff. And so really where we're at is, again, we're not like making recommendations or anything like that. We're making sure that if people come and they're already looking into psychedelics and generally they've been informed by this or that or, you know, as it gets more prominent,

[00:39:47] we're making sure that if they want to go, they agree that this is what they want, that they're informed so that they can make sure that that's the right decision. And that they're set up for success, that they're not going to some podunk, makeshift, ayahuasca shack, even in the U.S. now, right? And we see this a lot where people hear about this and they just go to like, oh, my buddy has this person that he recommends. And then oftentimes you have to do, you know, work with that person to like help them out after they had a bad experience, right?

[00:40:16] And so that's kind of where we're at. And that's sort of the challenge is that what we're trying to do is really provide sort of this extra support for people who are already inclined to do this, to educate them, their family, have that support, and then connect them to spots that are top of their class. And that's why we're also independent from the facilities that do this. So it's like, hey, if you're going to do this, these are the spots we recommend you can choose based off of location, all this kind of stuff.

[00:40:46] And then we'll provide you the coaching support guidance, information that you need to make sure that you hit the ground running with this. So it is, you know, it might seem like I'm being sort of pendentic on that, but it is important of where we stand. And because until this is federally legal, until it does get into the medical system, which we're also advising for, and it's also tricky with these substances. I don't want to ever be in the position of like, hey, Scott, I've talked to you for 30 minutes.

[00:41:16] You should go do ayahuasca. And, you know, it has to be your decision. You have to come to me and be like, hey, I'm really interested in this. How should I go about it? Like, okay, well, let's make sure that this is actually what you want to do. Here's the information. Here's the risk. Here's all that kind of stuff. So there's sort of a difference there. But it's also tricky, too. And this is what we're coming to head with.

[00:41:39] These are now a lot of these substances, like the research has followed essentially what we suspected and did the early research on. And they are showing pretty phenomenal results and going through clinical trials. And some of them, you know, like mushrooms and MDMA might be within a year of being actually approved by the FDA. But the system is just grossly unprepared for it.

[00:42:06] So there is always there is this sort of give and take of. Researchers or people with the VA of like, hey, what are you doing? You know, you guys are not qualified or, you know, it only takes one bad person and it derails it. But at the same time, if you do nothing, then you also know a number of people are going to take their own lives or have other bad outcomes.

[00:42:31] Right. So there's almost a sort of ethical dilemma of like you want to do for me, the balance is you want to do something, but do it like with at the utmost rigor, at the utmost attention and quality and people's outcomes, because not doing anything also has negative outcomes. Right. And so there's a sort of balance of of where we've always been at.

[00:42:52] But it's also to the point now where even, you know, and we have within our staff like therapists and all this kind of stuff, the full range of professional and peer support. So we really rely on veterans who have gone through this to be the future coaches. But we actually a lot of our people have far more experience than even the people doing the clinical trials. Right. Because at this point, we've served over 1500 veterans and spouses because we also do family support.

[00:43:20] And most clinical trials are 20, 30, 40 people. And so in terms of actually seeing this and experiencing and seeing outcomes and how this all comes out, we're actually behind the scenes advising some of the VA hospitals or some of these clinicians to do that. And so now we're actually kind of coming into a good sort of balance there. There's still going to be the naysayers. There's still going to be the people who are just like, oh, we need to research this for 10 more years.

[00:43:51] But there's other people who kind of see the light and see the value of what we've been able to bring to the table. Like I said, we've had many times where people who are very professional to look at our systems and intake and they're actually quite surprised and impressed by the rigor that we go about. And that's always, again, been our main focus is quality because, you know, I'm not here to, you know, play chance with anybody's life.

[00:44:17] You know, we just saw Trump sign an executive order that, you know, hopefully will increase access or speed of adoption for psychedelics. Very encouraging for folks in this space. But, you know, as America does seem to move towards adoption of psychedelic drugs as a mainstream treatment option for PTSD. Well, what's your biggest concern as we move from where we are today to this is a routine treatment option, fully vetted and available for veterans?

[00:44:44] Yeah, I mean, there's going to be all sorts of issues and challenges as we come about, especially because the way these MDMA is a little bit different. It'll work a little bit easier within the system because it kind of lends itself to sort of talk therapy. It just opens people up and builds a trust. Psilocybin and some of the hallucinogens are different because it's if you take a big dose of mushrooms and you're kind of on your own journey.

[00:45:10] And so there and then you talk about afterwards of what came up and you have similar things with ibogaine. And then ibogaine has been very popular in the media for the last year, popular with like seals and stuff like that. But ibogaine has its own risk profile and it's great with addiction. Right. So each of these are going to find their spot. And I will say to the audience, too, even if you hear like, hey, my buddy did this.

[00:45:40] This is the best one. They all can be effective. It's the program matters more than than the actual substance. So I'd say lean more into the program and don't just get too dogged on. This is the best one or this is the one that's going to heal me because I've seen pretty similar results with with with all of them. Um, so the first of the executive order was a big first step.

[00:46:01] Um, we're trying to see, um, how effective it will be, uh, because there's a lot of stuff in there that like it's great, uh, that that'll help streamline stuff. But there's as with a lot of executive orders, it's hard to keep things accountable, right? Like there's one thing of just saying it and waving a wand versus systematically. How do you actually implement that and make sure that that's going down?

[00:46:26] Uh, and so, you know, there's things we wanted added that just didn't make the final cut. But at the end of the day, it does give sort of the political, um, uh, approval, which is great because a lot of these administrations like HHS and even the VA were hesitant to move forward until they got sort of this approval from the Trump administration, from Trump himself of yes, psychedelics are a go and you're not going to get in trouble for going through it.

[00:46:53] So that's a big move, like behind the scenes of just even that sort of, uh, approval dynamic is, is big with how this administration works. And so we hope that does sort of kick people in the butt to, to start moving forward with these things. The biggest thing that is still needed is, um, what we call like implementation research, right? Uh, or just better understanding of implementation.

[00:47:18] So case in point is there was like an executive order or mandate a few years ago of increasing ketamine in the VA and ketamine can also, you know, has its own plus and minuses, but it can also be quite effective for, uh, for mental health or depression, uh, suicidal thoughts. Uh, but because it was just sort of this like, Hey, let's increase this without any sort of, uh, accountability metrics, KPIs.

[00:47:45] It really just like in the first six months, only 12 people got served and it's still sort of a mixed bag of which VAs have it and, and all this kind of stuff. So that's what we're trying to avoid because like I said, uh, with psilocybin, it's, it's such a unique, um, it doesn't necessarily mix well with how we currently run mental health programs. So mental health and especially reimbursement insurance really relies on the sort of quick in, quick out.

[00:48:14] You see your professional, uh, they check your prescription. Do we need to increase it, decrease it or change it up? How are you doing? 30 minutes. Okay. Go home, check back in in a month, right? It's really sort of this less personal time, more prescribed time. And psychedelics are kind of the opposite. You need, you know, the, the journey can last four to five hours, if not more. Uh, you need a lot of like time to talk through stuff.

[00:48:39] Uh, and in the long run, it'll save money, but in the short run, it's, it's kind of hard to balance, uh, some of the, the, the, the costs and how that actually works in the BA system, right? There, there's just not, there's not a BA where I really want to do psilocybin journey there. That would be kind of horrifying in my, my mind. So there's a lot to be known. There's just not a lot of people who are actually trained and proficient in working with psychedelics. So a full training dynamic, everything down to like the systems, you know, just even how do you book this?

[00:49:09] How do you, you know, a lot for it. There's so many different, uh, in the weeds dynamics that the system is not ready for. And so even if like a mushroom, psilocybin mushroom gets approved by the VA, it's still likely that's going to be years before it actually gets in the hands of veterans. Because there's all these other things to figure out. So we're trying to actually get that going beforehand, because if we reasonably think that these are coming down the pipeline, let's start getting prepared for it before.

[00:49:37] Which is a very hard thing to get an organization as big as the VA to, to move forward. But this executive order does help with that, right? Because now we can say like, hey, this is the mandate. So what, what things can we do right now that prepares for success that limit the time between approval and that we have a reasonable degree of certainty that these can help in certain situations. And actually getting it into the hands of veterans, just because, again, we need more tools.

[00:50:03] The, every time, every day we wait, every month we wait, more and more veterans are just falling off the deep end. And, and we, we need to really address this as a crisis that, that, to the severity that, that it is. Yeah. Well said. Well, thank you so much for talking with us today. Really hope your organization continues to do great things out there. Appreciate everything you're doing, sir. Scott, thanks so much for having me. If you want to know more, realcardsproject.org, we are a nonprofit.

[00:50:32] So our ability to serve veterans is based off of donations. We have books out there that are in field management, psychedelics, the Veterans Guide. So if you're, if you're wanting more information, you can just go on Amazon and search veteran psychedelic and they should be some of the top results. And, you know, we're on Instagram and all that kind of stuff. So if you're interested, you can go to our website, fill out an application, sign up for people who are interested in advocating.

[00:50:59] We also have people who we train who, if they want to go to D.C. to help us talk to politicians about this kind of stuff. So any way you want to get involved, there's, there's a few different aspects. Awesome. Link to the website will be in the show notes for folks that are listening. Take care. In the next part of our series, we'll be talking to Emory University Healthcare about their clinical trials on veterans with PTSD being treated with psychedelic drugs. That'll be available on the 24th of June.

[00:51:30] Thank you.