Unleashing HR Evolution: Mark Stelzner's Insight on the EPIC Conference and HR Transformation

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[00:00:16] 32 million dollars. So when you go to Now Imagine and people ask us like how do you get every

[00:00:21] single business case you've ever written approved? This is how guys it's a ground game. So I bring it

[00:00:26] up only to say we have experts, experts are great. We have a process, a process is helpful.

[00:00:32] We have the reality of how the process works. Okay now we're getting people centered and then we

[00:00:37] find all these other points of friction and costs that you would never contemplate are connected

[00:00:43] to this process which creates a whole different optic about why this transformation matters,

[00:00:49] which leads to more transformation and more thought processes etc.

[00:00:58] I'm in the ball of the one, he is not.

[00:01:01] This week we take up and Ryan Lear, we have Mark Stelzer on today with the You Should Know podcast

[00:01:07] and we're going to be talking about a lot of different things because Mark and I haven't seen

[00:01:10] each other and talked and while so really we're just going to use this podcast as a way to catch up.

[00:01:15] Just kidding. Mark would you do us a favor and introduce yourself for us?

[00:01:20] Absolutely, hey guys Mark Stelzer, founder and co-leader of IA founded IA 18 years ago so we're

[00:01:27] fully grown adults now apparently and three decades of people transformation experience whatever that

[00:01:34] means guys maybe we can talk about that but good to be with you support large scale big HR transformation

[00:01:41] projects on behalf of the global 1000 but looking forward to catching up my friends.

[00:01:45] That's awesome so one day we have to cover is you're do we say chairperson or chairman?

[00:01:53] Maybe it's chairperson conference chair maybe we can just be inclusive yeah yeah I want to do that

[00:02:02] because I care so conference chair of Epic which used to be called the was it health and benefits

[00:02:09] leadership conference it was it was so yeah so the backstory on this is I co-key noted with

[00:02:16] Cisco, Texas go not food Cisco although no I'm hungry now that I mentioned both or the rapper Cisco

[00:02:25] no judgment no judgment.

[00:02:27] Um at last an error it's got the same pair.

[00:02:30] It does yeah yeah Brian I'm on my way this is like before

[00:02:36] me.

[00:02:38] We had we were talking to Donald night he says he said his was a choice mine was not a choice

[00:02:49] oh yeah that's how I said to them that's how we started the show.

[00:02:53] I said it looks like Donald's was a choice here's this clearly not a choice

[00:02:57] I'm like Steve Martin and John McInero had a lunch out and nobody wanted much pretty much

[00:03:03] pretty much but that's okay both guys are awesome there you go exactly good to I was chased

[00:03:09] through the airport in Paris during covid with a guy that was convinced I was John McInero

[00:03:13] we're carrying a racket you should carry a racket I was like you can't see I'd play that up

[00:03:20] I'd have the little arm bands the wrist band red white and blue rest bands hey man on

[00:03:26] and I carry a racket around and I only restore charts as you can imagine so you know it's a

[00:03:30] yeah that was it yeah I probably couldn't pull that off but yeah I don't know guys so epic epic

[00:03:36] was born out of a recognition that the topic of elevating people is bigger than just

[00:03:42] health and benefits and so in partnership with the great team at HR executive now they're parent

[00:03:49] company ETC and ARC I had the great pleasure of helping to create something new with these folks

[00:03:55] and they were kind enough to bring me in and say you know what should we be talking about and you

[00:04:00] guys know this every sub domain and HR around the world has its own event has its own focus

[00:04:07] there is you know everything you can imagine in terms of tech led conversations but there was

[00:04:12] a lot of people's interest so we decided that you know it's funny you always come up with the

[00:04:17] website and then you figure out the name so they've you know the URL FHR but it landed on

[00:04:24] elevate people ignite change and it's the inaugural conference it's going to be a lot of fun

[00:04:30] you know there's there's voices that are both new and next because you know certainly we want to

[00:04:35] bring thought leaders in this topic together to talk about what people's interest that you can

[00:04:41] mean every every sub topic they're in but to the extent that I wanted to be involved in something

[00:04:47] it was predicated on bringing some new voices to the stage bringing some new personalities hearing

[00:04:52] something fresh and new I mean guys we have all been around this industry long enough to

[00:04:56] probably do other people's keynotes and presentation that's the sad part about it give me your notes

[00:05:04] okay good all right let me tell you what's going on here I mean I'm the least important person

[00:05:09] that's involved I'm just the MC and the person doing the introduction but you know we've got

[00:05:13] dozens of really cool speakers talking about every topic you can imagine are good you know

[00:05:18] give you one our good friend Sidon who had dealt with you know tremendous loss in grief he's bringing

[00:05:24] that to the stage he's talking about comfort communications like things things we don't talk about

[00:05:29] that we real people experience every day that we as people leaders you know need to contemplate and

[00:05:35] that our employees and their families are dealing with that's what this is all about so I'm super pumped

[00:05:40] and looking forward to getting this getting this going in late April what type of title or

[00:05:48] company or you know a size of company what are we looking at in terms of the audience who do we want

[00:05:54] there yeah no shaping size necessarily we want people leaders I want business partners I want

[00:06:00] rewards leaders I want you know CPO's and CHRO's I want people that are thinking about people

[00:06:06] that spend every day thinking about the care and feeding the life and well-being the hearts the

[00:06:10] heads you know the bodies of the people that are the lifeblood of their organization that's what

[00:06:17] we're looking for and there really is no size limitation I mean this isn't about selling a bunch

[00:06:22] of goods and services this is about starting a conversation and I'll tell you guys the other thing

[00:06:28] that I've also noticed and we've been collectively guys we've been at what hundreds of conferences

[00:06:32] probably over our respective careers oh yeah and you walk away from a really inspiring or interesting

[00:06:38] you know speech and then about a day or two later it's at your sketch right you've lost everything

[00:06:45] and and part of what was really important to me is that this is actionable I want people to have

[00:06:50] some immediacy take these ideas and bring them forward in whatever priority makes sense we have

[00:06:55] workshops on the last day that are intentionally about how do we take what you've learned and how

[00:07:00] do you bring it to life in your organization how do you take school and bring it into something

[00:07:06] that's measurable not because we way of course all need an ROI on the travel and the expense and

[00:07:12] the opportunity costs but because frankly I'm sick of being involved in conferences that are all

[00:07:17] talking no action so yeah to the extent that I can help shape this that's our ambition and you know

[00:07:23] we're really looking forward to it I love it I love it excited to see it and let's keep going

[00:07:29] down that path though you thought you thought people people transformation what's what's keeping you

[00:07:33] up at night right now in we'll just say people transformation what are you thinking about?

[00:07:38] it's it's exhaustion honestly and this isn't you know this is mental fatigue this is

[00:07:45] financial fatigue this is physical fatigue we are tired I mean this pace we cannot keep up this pace

[00:07:54] and I go from all the way to the top of the organization the pace of innovation and ideation

[00:08:01] and new market entry and new capabilities and new products and new this and that you know the

[00:08:07] C-suite leaders that I spend a lot of time with you know behind closed doors when they hold up

[00:08:12] a reflective surface and really take a moment to pause get out of the whack-mo hole and look at

[00:08:17] themselves clearly and concisely they are beat it is hard we're seeing unprecedented turnover

[00:08:22] at that level and then you start to cascade that down to the millions and millions of people that

[00:08:28] are undergirding you know the chaos in this world it's impossible for anybody to keep up and to

[00:08:34] keep up well so a lot of this rhyme that we're finding is how do you how do you bring yourself to work

[00:08:41] which has always been the ambition but how do you protect yourself in doing so? How do you create space

[00:08:46] how do you create boundaries I mean look at the cool tools you guys are using today like there's no

[00:08:51] shortage of connective omnichannel experiences right that can keep us engaged

[00:08:58] but how do we shut it off how do we turn it off you guys will laugh I went to a physical today

[00:09:05] I haven't had a physical in three years the guy was like he's like he's like how's your how's

[00:09:11] your sleep? I'm like I said well how's your sleep?

[00:09:16] don't judge me

[00:09:20] say plan of fitness I'll judge you back

[00:09:24] and he's like he's like hard because why? Because he works for a really innovative organization

[00:09:30] that's using messaging and email and video and chat all these digital tools so you know even in

[00:09:38] his case and he's a caregiver like if he doesn't shut it off or put boundaries around his hours

[00:09:44] working he could work 24-7 and simple reminders of course like hey don't they don't look at

[00:09:49] that screen at night well guess what? What's hard when you're working hard is you want to escape

[00:09:55] in that last moment like that first moment of quiet sometimes is putting on those you know putting

[00:10:00] in those earbuds or those headphones on that little screen in the dark you know flashing in your

[00:10:05] face which is keeping you awake I want to watch a show or listen to a wonderful podcast like this

[00:10:11] and do something other than live in my world it works so you know the the trouble in the battle

[00:10:16] is real my friends and it's pervasive no what no one can escape it right now unfortunately

[00:10:21] is there any parallel to the what you do at IA and seeing people transformation and again you've

[00:10:27] been doing it for a while and seeing what's wrong in people transformation and and then helping with

[00:10:37] this conference in terms of making a people centric is am I am I drawing a line between two dots that

[00:10:43] don't exist no you are and I think I think part of this is this tendency to use you know big 10

[00:10:49] dollar words to describe the ambitions of the organization that for the average individual

[00:10:56] maybe meaningless so you know how do you I talk about this a lot but like how do we bring

[00:11:02] content into context so it is really simple to put up I mean we've all been part of EVPs and

[00:11:09] the aspiration factual functional inspiration whatever it's intended to be of what we mean to stand for

[00:11:16] and then every employee has a million examples of a couple times it worked in a million times it didn't

[00:11:22] and so really this is about being bespoke to the individual how do you get people transformation yes

[00:11:29] you can have goals and objectives and KPIs and measures and do sentiment surveys but if William

[00:11:36] isn't moved by it and if Ryan isn't moved by it didn't we transform well maybe we changed a

[00:11:41] process or we changed the policy or we de-ress something or we introduce new tools but when I

[00:11:48] chill up every day and I kick open that laptop or I go into that manufacturing site or I you know

[00:11:53] open up that storefront is my day any different is anything materially changed and my better off

[00:12:00] than I was or at least a parody to how I was the day before that's real people transformation

[00:12:06] and and a lot of it is going back to employee centricity which I know is obvious you know

[00:12:14] I just put up a piece a couple weeks ago for HR executive on you know how AI is amplifying

[00:12:20] the employee experience again and and the reason it's amplifying the employee experiences because

[00:12:27] of the dehumanization of what AI brings and so the need to over correct and think about how AI

[00:12:35] makes us more human is actually not something that we talk about it's not vague we're talking about

[00:12:41] tools and capabilities so so guys that's the problem that's where the rubber hits the road and I

[00:12:48] would say then part of that is having honesty and transparency in your organizations and that's

[00:12:54] difficult right because it's scary to basically either admit I don't know try and you know

[00:12:59] ability or I don't know what that means for you right yeah that's that's vulnerability meets

[00:13:05] ambiguity that's right and and things that are most people are uncomfortable with 100 percent

[00:13:11] 100 percent so the question that I'm thinking about in terms of transformations does one know

[00:13:19] in the midst of transformation that things are being transformed or is it that you can look back

[00:13:25] and see the transformation happen there's there's probably two schools of thought which I think

[00:13:30] can both coexist one is that it should be frictionless it should be you know as people like to say

[00:13:37] in that flow of work it should be natural it should be organic if I have to think about it

[00:13:43] yeah well I maybe I've created a process that's too difficult to maybe bring everybody along for

[00:13:48] the ride and then the other part of it is being intentional about why we're doing this what we're

[00:13:54] trying to achieve and you know how should it feel and it's funny you know we have

[00:14:00] it's really interesting we talk a lot with our clients about measurement you know it's very

[00:14:04] bold to think about KPIs or OKRs or you know big big consultancy measures or advisory measures

[00:14:10] that would say okay we've moved from A to B to X to Y to Z but really what I find super encouraging

[00:14:17] is several of our clients really really big some of the biggest organizations in the world say

[00:14:23] yeah that's good but what really matters is how do my employees feel so the only measure that

[00:14:28] matters the only measure that matters is sentiment right and even if the even if the perception

[00:14:37] of that is it's better even if we know that actually the reality is the employee may not be as

[00:14:42] healthy as they could be they didn't take advantage of all the wonderful things we have but if

[00:14:47] they perceive that things are better day over day week over week year over year and their families

[00:14:52] feel that way maybe that's what it's all about maybe that's true transformation at its heart

[00:14:58] how are these companies measuring sentiment I know obviously tools in tech and all that but

[00:15:05] how are they really measuring it what are they looking for and how does that differ I know you're

[00:15:09] working with large organizations but as you you come down you know say 500 person organization

[00:15:15] where does that change or does it change yeah I think it's both the set and the un-set I think

[00:15:22] people express sentiment in a wide variety of ways and I think frankly one of the challenges is

[00:15:28] that you know we do microsurvey and pull surveys and that there's the notion that one medium

[00:15:34] and mechanism is going to tell us where we are we did Ryan we did work for a client many many years

[00:15:39] ago you all have been in restrooms where you got the little smiley face monitor yeah yeah

[00:15:46] afraid to touch those things don't know I know I just want you to watch your hands after

[00:15:52] push all the buttons and type all the words so yeah

[00:15:58] but we work with this organization who had a really interesting idea they put one of those

[00:16:02] same literally the exact same smiley face kind of pain meters at the entrance and exit of their

[00:16:09] manufacturing facility and what all they measured is how did you feel when you walked in and how

[00:16:15] did you feel when you walked out that was it touch the bottom how did you you walked in and how did

[00:16:21] you feel when you walked out and it sounds so obvious when you say it but what they could

[00:16:27] and notice is they could notice trendline spice shifts they could look at the pressure on

[00:16:33] manufacturing or production they can sense if there was an injury right if someone was injured

[00:16:39] God forbid on the floor they could tell when management shifted they could track it around meetings

[00:16:45] and interventions and everything so basic simple measure right we want to ask all the questions

[00:16:52] and we want natural language to extract you know what here's what we said but here's what we really

[00:16:57] meant here's what my face read as if you're a reflective surface like me you can barely even you know

[00:17:02] capture my sentiment but but at the end of the day like simple works and another way of measuring

[00:17:10] sentiment is talking to people right yeah we have organizations that like are finally realizing that

[00:17:18] the front line is where all the intel is all the intel right we can ask our customers etc but the

[00:17:25] people that actually work just to preserve it singly they probably know more than those that

[00:17:29] get separated layer after layer after layer so it's all it's all the things it's not a war

[00:17:35] but it's an and and sometimes simpler as better what role does communications play in both being

[00:17:41] people centric as well as also in transformation so i'm trying to draw again there's two dots

[00:17:48] between these two things what what role do we need to actually play up or over index or

[00:17:56] under index yeah and in the role of communications well and it's in its ironic this notion of sort of

[00:18:02] we want it to be organic but we also need to foster and facilitate and and therefore you know

[00:18:07] historically change in comms like the investment in change in communications was the first line item

[00:18:13] to be cut um so we advocate really really strongly to make sure that's front center but i will

[00:18:19] also say that those organizations are shrinking and the perception is that a lot of those assets now

[00:18:25] can be digitized can be dynamically created and we truly need humans to to be involved in that work

[00:18:32] putting that aside for a moment communications are critical but communication in the form and format

[00:18:40] and i would say in the language and i mean literally the language also the contextual language

[00:18:47] that our employees speak um if you talk to communications professionals most of most of them

[00:18:53] would say you know we're pegging at an eighth grade communications level exactly that's how

[00:18:59] that's how we're going to go to market and that's how we're going to reach the majority of the

[00:19:02] people well guess what that's that may be insulting to some people but that you know as we're

[00:19:08] embracing if we really believe in diversity equity inclusion and belonging everyone learns

[00:19:13] differently you know just what we have to think about all the channels and all the medium all the

[00:19:18] consumption if you like swiping then head over to sub stack and search up work to find

[00:19:24] wrk defined and subscribe to the weekly newsletter um so i see this every single day

[00:19:31] so comms is critical and the fact that we are imposing change at times that is in organic that is

[00:19:37] going to require difficult conversations and and we can't ignore the fact that this requires a

[00:19:43] lot of investment and it also requires time and lead time and what i mean is sometimes these changes

[00:19:50] are perceived to be so confidential guys that the temptation is wait until 10th 11th

[00:19:55] 11th and the ninth minute so far exactly and suddenly we expect we're going to show up next day

[00:20:03] log in and i'm there with the logins and clicks so i get it on day one that doesn't mean i've changed

[00:20:10] the damn thing so that's where i again we advocate for more transparency we get that there

[00:20:15] is sensitivity we live in the real world right but we also can respect people as adults and humans

[00:20:21] and bring them along the journey with us what's what's the goal in i guess in your opinion here maybe

[00:20:28] or what are you saying as the goal in transformation is it happiness in the workplace what exactly are

[00:20:35] we striving for i would add before you answer i had a similar take and it was like it's transformation

[00:20:41] ever done no transformation is never done okay so both of you i did work it on this beauty for a long time

[00:20:50] it ain't done yet just 45 years of transformation here so it's so but then it's interesting because when

[00:20:58] we tell well we talk to clients and we talk about a bespoke project the you know project has a

[00:21:04] beginning a little in an end and it's all kind of a nice little shoe box yeah but it's like

[00:21:11] there's no there's no end of in right like we got all great there's no end to this just you go

[00:21:16] on to another part that needs to be transformed okay no it's 100% and it's the biggest mistake is to

[00:21:23] create the logo cake and have that celebratory moment and then raise your virtual champagne

[00:21:29] and say we have arrived congratulations done yeah celebrate that is V like 0.5 of a multi-year journey

[00:21:39] because it is continuous i mean we're not static i haven't seen you guys in a while like we're

[00:21:45] always changing life has changed and frankly we have no idea what's happening in people's lives so

[00:21:49] the notion that there is a fixed moment yes we have deliverables and we have capabilities and

[00:21:55] things you want to create but the mistake that we're seeing and the reason there's so much tech debt

[00:22:00] and so much latent capability that is unused in terms of organizational capabilities because we're

[00:22:06] thinking about this too much in a fixed mindset so it may sound like completely unethetical to how

[00:22:12] you would run a business for 18 years but we come in with the notion of trying to get ourselves fired

[00:22:17] like i if you and this is for your listeners if you go to iHateConsulting.com it redirects to our website

[00:22:27] I couldn't first well I couldn't believe it was available which is kind of amazing

[00:22:33] why do i hate consulting because the ethos of consulting is typically let me get my hooks in you

[00:22:38] and i'm going to try it it's some believe you i'm gonna read you for years the way I shaped our

[00:22:45] organization and the way our great team and our glick clients use us is like no work player coaches

[00:22:50] I want to teach you how to do what we do because you should never spend another penny on us

[00:22:56] you should never come back to us and i mean this i want to teach you how to do continuous

[00:23:02] improvement because you have to and and and guys where we're seeing organizations really pick up

[00:23:08] this mantle is now there's the creation of these HR transformation offices or people transformation

[00:23:14] offices that are ingesting all these projects programs and initiatives going through prior

[00:23:19] organization thinking about capability and tooling and investment best use of internal and external

[00:23:26] resources etc because it's dynamic it's ever changing it's not a fixed point in the sky

[00:23:32] and that's the only way that frankly i think this works Ryan I stepped in on your question

[00:23:37] I apologize so what was that what it was we'd have to rewind tape what's the role of the C-suite

[00:23:46] in both being people people centric and in transformation uh the reason why i have that in my head is

[00:23:54] about 150 years ago uh i used to do sales force implementations

[00:24:00] i had a project 20 up so when the the data set is not that large but out of out of the ones that

[00:24:08] were successful it was the CEO that used sales force if the CEO used sales force the implementation

[00:24:16] with swimming everybody got on board if the CEO or the CRO VP of sales whatever wasn't involved in

[00:24:24] sales force they just wanted other people to be using sales force the implementation with sideways

[00:24:30] always always so if we're trying to build if we are people centric first of all it's not slogan

[00:24:38] if we are people centric what's the role in that and then in transformation what's the C-suite's role

[00:24:44] in in transformation two things the the front and back of that i would put our empowerment and engagement

[00:24:52] the number of decisions the tens of thousands of decisions that are really involved in a sustainable

[00:25:00] transformation and Ryan and William Deere question is like continuous transformation means you have to

[00:25:05] trust that there are people that are smart and that are capable that are making decisions in the

[00:25:11] best interests of the people and the organizational goals and they are empowered and you've got their

[00:25:16] back and what we're finding right now is the decision authority is not moving down it's actually

[00:25:23] moving up we're even at times the C-suite is taking things to the board that you would be shocked by

[00:25:29] because there is a little bit of fear right now that people are placing the wrong bets in the wrong

[00:25:34] categories and that accountability therefore is going off so we've got to push that empowerment

[00:25:40] down the organization and then lift people up and celebrate the empowerment even when that

[00:25:45] empowerment sometimes leads to a risk or a failure that i got your back we're going to pick up and

[00:25:49] we're going to run and that goes to engagement the best thing that a C-suite member can then do

[00:25:56] and William Deere call it's exactly right is engagement like demonstrable engagement and sometimes

[00:26:01] that means just a series of videos you know to remind people that I'm still here I'm present this

[00:26:08] is important this is critical imperative sometimes engagement is literally the ground game like I

[00:26:14] am there for these moments I am recognizing these moments sometimes engagement takes the form of

[00:26:21] I am talking to real people all over the organization about what this meant for them what this unlocked

[00:26:28] in them what this brought to life for them and their families engagement could take so both of

[00:26:33] these could take any form or format you can imagine but if you miss one or god forbid you miss

[00:26:39] both your guarantee your game fulfill what's what's causing the fear the sickle of Cality now

[00:26:50] is smaller and I'd say the risk profile is higher in the sense that the perceived risk of missing

[00:26:59] whatever you know go or imperative you're supposed to be on the side and the speed at which things

[00:27:04] are the velocity is sort of unprecedented so people are getting a website left and right and

[00:27:10] therefore if I'm making a bet with imperfect information which is frankly your responsibility as a

[00:27:15] C-suite member or you know you're at SVP or you're a VP or you're a senior director and you move

[00:27:23] down the question is what don't I know or what didn't I know and therefore is everyone informed

[00:27:29] have I shared that risk across my peer group and others where we all signed off and we all move for

[00:27:36] and then when it comes to you know micro decisions and macro decisions how much consensus were we

[00:27:41] able to drive and I'm seeing a lot of movement toward consensus culture as well which on one side

[00:27:47] brings more inclusivity which I'm glad to see but on the other side is a paralytic to action

[00:27:53] and therefore impeding progress so I think Ryan one I think it's all about risk I think people are

[00:27:59] really fearful of what the impact could better and different might be making the wrong call yeah well

[00:28:05] some of this is it's 1995 in the internet right around the corner you know it's right around the

[00:28:10] corner some of us are already playing around on the internet but we don't know what bets to make

[00:28:16] and what's gonna actually play out what's not gonna play out etc AI in some ways gen AIs

[00:28:21] is doing that to us we're it's created some analysis paralysis where it was like we're

[00:28:27] we don't know which the decisions to make which which bets to make but the the question I wanted

[00:28:34] to ask you is around people process and technology and the the transformation projects that

[00:28:41] you've done in the past that you've been involved in what I've seen is sometimes people make

[00:28:47] the bet that if we bring in this technology it'll solve our problems right and sometimes people

[00:28:53] are processing oriented and I think well we just read the re-engineer their process and that'll

[00:28:58] solve our problems I haven't seen where if we just get the right team together that'll fix everything

[00:29:04] although my inclination is that's probably more accurate but I have seen the the technology

[00:29:11] it happens in our world I know you know this it happens in our world if we pick the right

[00:29:15] technology it's gonna change everything and every time someone says that to me I'm like yeah

[00:29:21] technology is not gonna change anything if you're rotten at process or if you're rotten as a team

[00:29:28] your collaboration you're just putting new tech on something that's already broken so

[00:29:33] like that's not gonna help anything but you're the expert so as you look at the transformation

[00:29:39] projects that have been super successful what do you attribute that to process lead

[00:29:47] and people centric with tech enablement techs the techs the accelerant right I think it's like

[00:29:54] accelerants and distractions so I give an example we worked at a very large brand name retailer

[00:30:02] part of the largest luxury holding company in the world and they had a transformation project

[00:30:07] that we were part of and we were headquarters and we did lots of process mapping like forensic HR

[00:30:12] ground game work that was corporate's perspective of how things work very smart domain experts like

[00:30:19] snowies right this is this is how they thought it worked exactly exactly oh my god this is how a lot

[00:30:26] of processes start right like yeah get your sneeze and you bring them in a room and you try to

[00:30:30] document you know maybe current state to the best of your knowledge but then we didn't stop there

[00:30:35] we went in the field and we went to their stores we said okay so pick a process like on board

[00:30:40] and we went to a store and we said okay what happens when someone is on board this well we take

[00:30:46] this piece of paper I might take it off from my paper we take this piece of paper and come behind

[00:30:56] our store first of all and there's file and we file it I said okay then what will we copy it

[00:31:01] and then what do you do well we we overnight it like UPS or FedEx I'm like then what do you do well

[00:31:07] then Iron Mountain comes and Iron Mountain also scans it and digitize and then what do you do well

[00:31:11] then we put it in our system or record as well then we went back to headquarters and said well

[00:31:15] what happens yeah we do get all the in 440 cores and this is where we go wait until we collect all

[00:31:22] the products exactly I know we see what what happens when you get to these finally what we unpack

[00:31:28] and I said well where do they go and then they took us up to the 30 second floor of the downtown

[00:31:33] San Francisco building and it was covered with cages I guess we're in the cages boxes and boxes

[00:31:40] and boxes of paper with no policy around retention document retention etc so you would think a

[00:31:47] traditional transformation would go to corporate you'd document the process you'd look at the current

[00:31:52] spend on the tech you compared to the new spend from the RFP you'd go one for one you'd say are

[00:31:58] there any people impacts and that would be your whole story well guess what we found we found about

[00:32:03] three and a half million dollars in shipping from this one process Jesus just for paper

[00:32:10] and we found thirty two million dollars in them we seen the 30 second floor how he's going to

[00:32:18] ask you that what did the 30 second floor cost right in San Francisco yeah in downtown San Francisco 32

[00:32:25] million two million dollars so so when you go to now imagine and people ask us like how do you get

[00:32:30] every single business case you've ever written approved this is how guys it's a ground game so

[00:32:35] so I bring it up only to say we have experts experts are great we have a process a process is

[00:32:41] helpful we have the reality of how the process works okay now we're getting people centered

[00:32:46] and then we find all these other points of friction and costs that you would never contemplate are

[00:32:53] connected to this process which creates a whole different optic about why this transformation

[00:32:59] matters which leads to more transformation and more thought processes etc over the process that

[00:33:04] everybody nobody owns cold on boarding so so you know and there's a million of these examples guys

[00:33:10] but we believe you got to have a point of view right in a lieu of point of view your tech and tool

[00:33:16] providers are happy to take their delivered functionality and they're as nice they're happy to come

[00:33:21] in and you'll pay that license on the first day of configuration and that SI will charge you time

[00:33:27] in materials forever but will you ever reach your intended destination and do they do they know

[00:33:32] how to unlock all of those no and do they care I mean I don't want to be shaded anybody but

[00:33:39] that's not really their business no and and that's why like it takes all these parties to work

[00:33:45] together but is the organization's accountability responsibility to have a point of view and that

[00:33:50] point of view right here can continuously is going to change it's kind of all over time so we got

[00:33:56] to build some fluidity in this as well but that's that's the best combination that we're seeing yeah

[00:34:01] so I've got two two questions probably not related at all so answer if we have time

[00:34:08] so I'm really curious to hear examples of stories of where transformation just was through the

[00:34:15] roof something you're really proud of that you worked on and then the the other part to that is

[00:34:20] how does a company know outside of just a gut feeling from this CEO or the CEO how do they know

[00:34:28] they need a transformation well they don't have a choice if you if you don't think you need a

[00:34:37] transformation yeah then you're digging your own grave so you're gonna answer both questions

[00:34:44] fantastic we're good so everyone has an impetus for change what the focus is what the concepts are

[00:34:54] what the impact is going to be who it's for for what outcome for what purpose of course that's always

[00:34:59] going to be unique to every single organization in the world and again constantly changing which is

[00:35:05] why we got somebody looking after this stuff but the transformations that we're most proud of is when

[00:35:13] we held up something that organizations couldn't look away from and I'm going to give you maybe a

[00:35:19] pretty controversial example that you will appreciate and you may say well why would you

[00:35:24] measure this a success and you'll understand in two minutes so we we worked with a large multinational

[00:35:30] holding company who will go unnamed 120 different entities that they own around the world European

[00:35:35] had courted and we had a meeting with the CEO and the entire C suite this C suite has two female

[00:35:42] leaders one is the C.H.R.O and the second is the president of the smallest business unit in this

[00:35:50] meeting there was supposed to be 60 minutes our process we went two and a half hours because the CEO

[00:35:56] wanted to fight what he wanted to fight okay if you want to fight I want to fight but the misogynistic

[00:36:04] tendencies of this particular CEO with his bro on the left and his bro on the right made me

[00:36:12] force something in the room that had nothing to do with the process but had everything to do with

[00:36:17] the organization transforming there was a moment where I asked him I said can you hold eye contact

[00:36:25] with your two female leaders for more than 15 seconds I said I want all the men in the room to

[00:36:33] turn their heads away and let's call them let's call them Greta and Sally I said first I want you

[00:36:39] to look at Greta and I want you to hold eye contact with her sincerely like look at her and engage

[00:36:44] with her right you know and so now I want you to do the same and the guys are laughing and everything

[00:36:50] else and the reason I'm doing this is all the expertise around everything that we've described to

[00:36:58] you is already in this room it's already in this room if you would listen and you would embrace

[00:37:05] the knowledge and the ideas that everyone including these two can bring to you that will lead you

[00:37:12] to the type of change that you're looking for and it was so you would think I'd be talking about

[00:37:19] metrics and outcomes and success and instead one of my most successful transformations was fighting

[00:37:25] with the CEO who by the way afterwards in the hallway came up to me and shook my hand and said you

[00:37:32] know that was really that was really good like that was an amazing conversation that we had fought

[00:37:36] with me the whole time and then I found out after you left the room came back in and said you

[00:37:41] know we probably should listen to what these folks told us to do even though he wouldn't agree with

[00:37:45] anything we said while we were in the room so right of course no so Ryan I feel like if we can open

[00:37:51] eyes and we can open hearts and we can change ways of working and we can recognize that in most

[00:37:58] cases all the answers exist we just need a method to organize them and funnel them toward you know

[00:38:04] some imperative for good then I can retire um that's it all yeah that's the girl I want to get fired

[00:38:14] want to get fired and I want to retire yeah what are you going from this time so let's go back

[00:38:20] to epic for a couple minutes real quick you you mentioned that you want to you want to really pull

[00:38:26] out tease out the voices that are next to now how do you find those like what's the what's

[00:38:34] a like you know I'm saying like that's hard we all know the same people so that's great but

[00:38:39] like how do you how do you figure out the people that you don't know yeah it was it was a really

[00:38:44] cool process so the call for speakers was really really early which again if there's any

[00:38:51] conference organizers out there that cast such a broad net and gave enough time for us to make

[00:38:57] sure that everybody knew that this existed and that was new and that you were wanted um we had

[00:39:05] over 400 submissions for this for this event wow 400 submissions and so I read every single one

[00:39:16] I read every single one I went through all of them I gave feedback when when the unfortunate notices

[00:39:23] go out which we've all been on the receiving end of I the offer that I had then put in and if

[00:39:29] you want more detailed reach out to Mark and he will give you feedback and many did and I did

[00:39:34] give them that feedback but what it gave us a chance to do is to curate because we bought ourselves

[00:39:40] enough time to curate a combination of individuals and it's an incredibly I'm so proud of like

[00:39:48] the diversity of voices and perspectives and individuals that are participating it's probably one

[00:39:53] of the most diverse events that I've ever seen and it's not lost on me that this white guy over

[00:40:00] 50 is the one facilitating this but when we talk about putting myself out of a job my goal is to

[00:40:05] bring more people into the conversation and get out of the way we don't need to hear from me we

[00:40:10] need to create space to hear from everybody else so that's exactly how we did it that's how we

[00:40:16] found people that exist that have something to say but never had the opportunity to say it

[00:40:21] and I'm super super proud and I'd say that goes for topics too even the people some of the people

[00:40:26] that we know are took the advantage of the moment to lean into hard topics like stuff that aren't

[00:40:35] is not necessarily the sexy you're exciting or you know most innovative things but it's the hard

[00:40:41] things of what it means to be a human in today's world and I'm super proud of this cohort

[00:40:46] of amazing speakers and presenters and frankly how they're intending to show up and I'm excited

[00:40:51] to see the fruits of their labor for sure. What success like when you get done and you're doing

[00:40:58] your reflection or post boredom or etc. What's success for you? Sentiment it's exactly where we

[00:41:06] started guys so I want I'm a story person at heart like I want to I want to hear how it impacted

[00:41:13] people the attendees but as importantly I want to hear how they took that information

[00:41:21] and how it impacted their teams and so on and that effect is you know why I did this like this

[00:41:30] isn't you know I never had aspirations to necessarily be a conference chair but you know you've

[00:41:35] got to be careful right you complain that you want something better and you got to help make

[00:41:38] it clear. Yeah exactly how I got here and I'll applaud the team at ETC and ARK and HR

[00:41:45] executive that really leaned into the moment because you know we challenged them to try some new

[00:41:50] things and do some new things. I'll give you another example guys here's about impacting people so

[00:41:54] we we called MGM. I get it the podcast just isn't enough that's all right head over to your

[00:42:02] favorite social app search up work defined WRK defined and connect with us and we said MGM who

[00:42:10] who leads philanthropy at MGM how many events have we been at MGM. Oh good god so we got

[00:42:18] we got to the head of giving for MGM International and we said what can we do as an event

[00:42:25] to bring giving a giving campaign to those who you know in Las Vegas need help who knows better

[00:42:32] than you right so we're doing it hasn't been announced yet but I'll share this here we're doing

[00:42:37] we're doing a giving campaign we're creating hygiene kits etc that my firm is actually supporting

[00:42:44] because I think this is important we're all together to do good this isn't about a sponsorship

[00:42:49] and someone throwing their brand on something I don't want any recognition for but what's important

[00:42:53] to me is we're at the MGM they know who in the community of greater Las Vegas needs help why

[00:42:58] don't we take the hundreds and hundreds of hearts and souls that are going to be there and let's

[00:43:02] put it in something good so that's important as well that's another way of measuring impact

[00:43:08] that's what I care about I want stories I want to hear that this actually led to something

[00:43:14] not that it was a great keynote but that it was a keynote that moved someone to action you know the

[00:43:19] the action part because you're doing workshops on the last day getting people to action

[00:43:25] you know getting the people to create a plan for how to take this stuff that they've learned or

[00:43:29] been inspired by etc and put it into place there's a long tail to that you know it's almost like

[00:43:36] you could book in this with the next year's conference and start off with okay what did we learn

[00:43:42] from last year what do we put into action okay where did it get this you know where did we derail

[00:43:47] what worked etc so I could I could see if we do this if you if you just do it two weeks after

[00:43:54] everyone's still high off the off of off the off the conference right everything if you

[00:44:00] if we do it right it they're educated they're inspired they're entertained everyone's still feeling

[00:44:05] that that feeling but a year later have we have have the actions been kind of pulled through

[00:44:13] I think you can do kind of longitudinal study if you will of those actions actually being

[00:44:20] implemented I think that's a I think that's a brilliant idea and and I think every event has the

[00:44:25] notion of keeping the conversation going right like that's always an ambition right I don't think

[00:44:31] that frankly there's a lot of good examples in the event industry of people doing that at scale

[00:44:35] and and doing it well so you know I hope that other event organizers who may listen to this bag

[00:44:41] bar one steal from you know whatever they can learn because you're a thousand percent right William

[00:44:46] that peak is high like we all feel really good generally coming out of that the sense of community

[00:44:52] and connection you know with our tribe here is fantastic but the valley is really low

[00:44:59] and honestly sometimes it's the cognitive dissonance of the inspiration you heard and then going back

[00:45:04] into your job knowing you can't change a damn thing actually it's the worst that you ever went

[00:45:10] in the first place I'd rather not know yeah no no no no no no no because now I've seen

[00:45:15] you know or heard what good or great could look like and oh my I'd like to see a correlation between

[00:45:21] how many attendees attend conferences and how quickly they look for new jobs yeah that would

[00:45:26] that's actually pretty interesting that would be an idea of the interest in study right which is

[00:45:32] oh my god you made me see again I go back to reflective service I looked I looked into the mirror

[00:45:38] and I'm new world I want to go join the new world we go join that which I think is you know

[00:45:43] and honestly I think you know those organizations that participate on panels and keynotes and success

[00:45:49] stories you know it's good of them to do that because that's a recruiting moment too there's no

[00:45:54] there's no miss in trying to tell a story that might draw someone into your brand and into your

[00:45:58] organization so I encourage practitioners of course to continue to participate but we got to do

[00:46:04] better to make it real and make it sustainable and if done right telling stories can be super

[00:46:12] educational highly valuable so sorry William and he last uh questions for mr. Mark here

[00:46:19] not at all it's been wonderful it has been Mark thank you so much for coming on appreciate it

[00:46:24] and if you're still watching you're listening follow us like us everywhere do that thing if you see

[00:46:30] us out somewhere alive come say hello I'm the bald one he is not