Sexual Harassment in the Workplace. How to Address It, Investigations, and Retaliation with Lakeisha Robichaux CEO, Chief of Minds

[00:00:00] . Perception in the reality of the other person. I'm going to go with the name. Robichaud? There you go, Robichaud. That was perfect. That was perfect. That is so not fair. So not fair. Lekisha, first of all, are you an LSU fan? Are you a LSU supporter? I am.

[00:01:13] I'm an LSU and a Southern University JAG fan. Both. Oh, okay. Okay. And you're obviously a Saints fan. I am. I'm a Saints fan. I'm a Saints fan. I'm a Saints fan. I'm a Saints fan. I'm a Saints fan. I'm a Saints fan. I'm a Saints fan.

[00:01:26] I'm a Saints fan. I'm a Saints fan. I'm a Saints fan. And you're obviously a Saints fan. Oh, yes. Yes. Come on. Absolutely. Well, you're in good company because Ryan's an Eagles fan and I'm a Cowboys fan. Okay. So, you know.

[00:01:40] We're a company at least on one side. Well, Cowboys haven't been... We both don't like the Cowboys. There you go. There you go. You all have won Super Bowls and been really good.

[00:01:53] I forwarded Ryan this bit on Instagram the other day that a player that played for the Cowboys that won a Super Bowl in 95 has a son. Son's been all the way through college and he's been drafted to an NFL team since the Cowboys won a Super Bowl.

[00:02:13] Like all those things happened. So, yeah, we're coming up on 30 years. Next year will be 30 years since we've been relevant. So, we'll get off of the Cowboys. All right. So, one of the things that I loved about, you know, when we first started talking to

[00:02:29] some of your people was the idea of talking about harassment, kind of the state of harassment, the state of sexual harassment in the workplace. And we haven't done a good update there. We haven't been good allies there because we just haven't been able to find an expert.

[00:02:44] So, please do us a favor. Introduce yourself and your company and all those types of things. And then let's kind of get into the unraveling and unpacking harassment and then getting into sexual harassment. Absolutely. So, I am Lakisha Robichaud, pronounced correctly by Ryan.

[00:03:04] I am the CEO of Cheap of Minds and we are an organizational development and human resources consulting firm. So, our clients, we ensure compliance and then also we make sure that they are profitable, productive and that employees perform well.

[00:03:26] So, that spans from everything from human resources consulting, training and development, program management, staff augmentation, everything along those lines, change management to really make an organization grow and thrive. And one of the things that we do and we talk about when we look at compliance

[00:03:46] and training and development is around harassment. What does it look like, indicators, how to be aware of it as an employer because it can definitely lead to high liability for an employer if they really don't understand what it is and really how to nip it in the bud

[00:04:04] and address it. So, just going into what harassment is and actually how it's evolved over the years. And I'll give an example just yesterday really I was at a meeting and during the meeting we were talking about the speaker was speaking on a

[00:04:23] process for businesses to apply for a certain program. In the program, the individuals that are applying for the program, they have to indicate whether or not their sex has changed. And years ago that wasn't something that you would have to indicate on an application as a business owner.

[00:04:45] And I had someone that was next to me and they asked the question, they said, would that be a form of harassment? Let's say can they even ask that question? Yeah. Well, here's the thing because in some programs they're women-owned,

[00:05:00] you must be a woman-owned company, things like that. And so the way that they ask the question, I told them, I said, no, that's not considered harassment because they're asking because it's the qualification for that application. But however there have been situations where in workplaces that has

[00:05:19] been a form of harassment if a person had a sexual orientation change or if they preferred for the pronouns to be, let's just say at one time it was a he, him and they wanted to be she, her, or they.

[00:05:36] That has been a claim, harassment claim happening to individuals. So it has changed from what it's been years ago. And that's just an example of something that happened on yesterday where someone asked me about that. Could that be considered that just based on them asking that question?

[00:05:54] And so that's just a question for qualifying. But inside of the workplace, those that happens a good bit. So asking inside the workplace, if I were to ask you, for example, a question about a sex change and you have gone through that, that would be considered harassment?

[00:06:14] No, because then you are asking the question. So it really depends on the intent behind it. Are you constantly asking them questions, asking this question, especially after they have told you, no, I don't want to talk about it? Or they may be open to it.

[00:06:29] If they're open to it, then it's not. Because there's something also called reasonable person behind the way or how they perceive it or how things or the communication behind it. But if you're just asking a question, no, you ask the question,

[00:06:48] that person can say yay or nay to whether or not they want to talk about it or not. If they put a halt, if you continue doing so, continue pushing it, then it can escalate to a form of harassment.

[00:06:59] What have we seen in pronouns in the last couple of years? And is there any, like Ryan and I go to EEOC site every week just to see different lawsuits and things like that. And so I'm interested to see, like from a company, a leadership perspective,

[00:07:16] if they just don't like pronouns, like they're just, you know, that's not their bit. They just don't agree with it. Can they be sued for that? Or is it just that creates a cultural issue that people just don't want to work there because they're not progressive?

[00:07:32] And the opposite is also something that's interesting to me. If they're pro-pronoun, if that makes sense, pronouns, and they want everyone to then encourage everyone to then kind of talk about their pronouns, but there's employees that are not comfortable with that. Have we seen anything?

[00:07:52] Have you seen anything in the experience of where companies deal with that or even kind of legal situations? Yeah. So I have not. So I've seen it both ways and I haven't seen any type of pushback of how if a company

[00:08:08] decides to use pronouns to identify, you know, in emails and things like that for identity purposes, I have not seen any type of pushback from employees. And then on the other side, if they do not choose to communicate that or have that represented inside of their emails

[00:08:27] where an employee has said that, you know, you're not progressive or you're not considerate, that has not been the case in my experience. Right. That either way that they've received pushback on it. It's almost like you're just allowing the other, the respect of the boundaries.

[00:08:43] If you want to talk about it, great. If you don't want to talk about it, great. Correct. Just respect other people's boundaries. Yes. Yes. Okay. Okay. Okay. So Ryan and I did a new show Sunday and preple did this study about video calls.

[00:09:00] It has a bunch of great stats, but one of the stats that really floored me was 79 percent of people on video calls start talking, get interrupted and then just abandon their idea.

[00:09:14] They're abandoning their, you know, what they were going to talk about because it's just like they're just they got steamrolled. Right. Which reminds me of a lot of stuff that has been going on for years. Now, I didn't break out gender.

[00:09:26] So I don't know the stats on that, but I just like 70, that's 80 percent. 80 percent of people start with an idea and they just give up the idea. Yeah. It's like, isn't that a form of harassment? I mean, it well, it could just feel like a stretch. Yeah.

[00:09:47] It could be if someone, again, if it happens repeatedly. Right. There's some type of slurs that go along with it or things like that. So I wouldn't say constantly being interrupted is a form of harassment.

[00:10:03] Like, hey, every time I try to talk, it may actually it may it may inhibit progressive culture, if you would, inside of the organization. But I wouldn't say that is ultimately harassment only if it continues to escalate. And there's other factors that, you know, that add into it.

[00:10:23] So it would have to be a bigger picture for us to say, you know, that constantly happened, that that's an harassment. But it would be bad for culture if someone is communicating and there's a person that's constantly stopping them from talking or maybe attacking them while they talk.

[00:10:36] Then you may go down the road of harassment. So it all depends. So of the companies that you work, you work with a lot of companies. And so you're able to you don't have to name companies. But I'm curious, are are the companies that you're working with?

[00:10:52] I'm assuming maybe not. This is why you're working with them. But are they properly set up to handle harassment, whether it be just harassment or sexual harassment?

[00:11:03] Are they properly set up inside the company to handle these conversations and these investigations or are they just so far off the mark that you go in and you're like, all right, you guys should not even be in business at this point. Yeah. So good question.

[00:11:19] So in the beginning, depending on our role for them as being a client, if we are handling their HR, some of our clients, we are their human resources department. Right.

[00:11:29] Yes, they are set up correctly because what happens is one, we make sure that they have sexual harassment training. And so we either leave that training or there is an online training that they go through.

[00:11:40] But also they know who they should contact in the event that they feel that someone harassed them. And that's whether it was sexual harassment or regular hostile work environment harassment or whatever type of harassment they be.

[00:11:53] And they come to us. And so we have had conversations with the managers on what that should look like, the type of documentation that needs to take place, reviewing that documentation and then recommendations for a decision of what that should look like.

[00:12:07] So yes, if they're HR, we are the HR department, you know, they're good to go. Now there have been cases, to be quite honest with you, where clients have come to us and it has been bad.

[00:12:18] And that's why they come to us. And so you may have to assist with the investigation and we told them like, look, you need to address this. Employees need to be trained.

[00:12:28] Managers need to be trained that this is why this is happening because there's nothing, there's no policy in place around this on who employees should go to or what's considered harassment.

[00:12:39] And so there's a lot of work that needs to be done there. And so, yes, I have seen situations like that where there's no structure around what harassment looks like and then employees or managers really do not understand or realize that they are harassing an employee.

[00:12:55] Right. So years ago, I had a really cool discussion with a physics professor and he said, William, at the end of physics, it becomes art.

[00:13:09] Like once you get to a certain point, it isn't about the hard science anymore. It's about faith, hope, love, belief, art. It's all this soft stuff. And I was telling him, you know, in art, you get through the creative process and at the end of art is science.

[00:13:28] You can see that it's color theory. It's all kinds of things that are more hard science based. So I lay that groundwork to ask the question of leadership. Do they know the edges of what is and isn't sexual harassment in 2024?

[00:13:47] No, not every leader. No, they really don't. They really don't because sometimes, you know, and especially depending on how long you've been in business or how long you've been a leader, you don't see one.

[00:14:00] You don't see everything that goes on on the front line, you know, so you're not there and you really don't understand it. You really don't understand it. Someone may come by and they say, oh, this person said, you know, this one thing.

[00:14:12] They're like, oh, you know, that's nothing. You know, they clown around like that. That's fine. But not understanding that this is something that's been happening for months now. The person has brought it up to their manager.

[00:14:23] And so they may not have known how just how deep it goes. Can it be, can it be subject? Sorry, I don't know if I should. Can it be subjective in so far as one person's harassment as an employee?

[00:14:37] One person's harassment is not another person's harassment or is it? Should it be probably better way to phrase that? Should it be just a clear mandate that this is just this is harassment is defined?

[00:14:51] Don't do it. Don't accept it. Yeah, but no, it's always going to be honestly that great area with it because what some people may feel is OK, because you think about morals.

[00:15:02] You think about values for some things. It may be OK for someone to maybe compliment someone on the way they look, you know, and maybe something revealing at the other person.

[00:15:14] They may be uncomfortable with that. And that actually happens a lot. You know, I just said that, you know, she looked good in the dress and that that dress.

[00:15:20] Hugged her and all the right box, you know, ways of perception in reality. Exactly. And for that person, that's OK. And for them to constantly say that, although the person is telling them, OK, thank you.

[00:15:30] But, you know, my husband wouldn't like that. So please don't say that again. And they continue to do it. Well, I'm just giving a compliment. The constant constant constant after I've warned you, I've said I don't like it.

[00:15:41] It's a compliment on the fourth time. This is actually interesting. Yes, yes. This is this is kind of the this is why I would make an awful HR because not because I do give comments that way because I pronounce her last name.

[00:15:58] Well, you at least could do that. I could even do that. I watch Law and Order, right? That's for you because I'm dark. And so I always in my mind, I think like where's that line between your supporting the victim versus the alleged perpetrator?

[00:16:17] Right. Like is there that like, oh, OK, I can kind of see both sides of this story. Where does HR fall or in this case, where do you fall? Whoever's doing the investigations, if there's no clear line and I know there is a line, right?

[00:16:30] There's a there's a definition of harassment. There's a clear definition of sexual harassment. I don't know if there is. But where does HR fall? I don't know if there is a clear definition of those two things. I mean, you can go and define what the actual definition is.

[00:16:47] It's not it's not HR for us. And it's going to be determined like where we fall at is the facts. What are the facts? What happened? You know, give us some documentation. Do we have emails that we have text messages? Do we have witnesses?

[00:17:06] We're going to interview the witnesses, get the witness statements. You know, that's where we where we fall in. It's all about the facts. And you also part of those facts is looking at the employment agreement, the employee handbook policies that they've created, et cetera.

[00:17:22] Right. The documentation. That's the documentation. That's what we're going to lie in. You know, what happened? Who? What? When? Where did this happen? Give us all of the facts. And that's where we make our recommendations when it comes to human resources. It's all about facts and documentation.

[00:17:38] Where does this leave HR go to authorities? After you make the determination, or is it I just feel really violated. I'm going to skip HR. Like why would a child and I think this is this is we've heard that authorities internal like leadership. No, no, no. Like police.

[00:18:01] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, looking at it from someone who's feeling the harassment thinking why would someone in HR not use people like HR? Like why would this person in HR handle harassment? Right.

[00:18:15] Company. I believe they're going to represent the company over me. I'm going to go to the authority. Where where does HR get involved there versus step out of the way?

[00:18:26] So and hopefully the employee knows that human resources that HR department is there for them when it comes to her. Hopefully the employee handbook. Most of the handbooks are going to say either go speak with a manager or a human resources department.

[00:18:42] And that's why you want to HR department because you want someone that's neutral because sometimes it can be the employees manager that is doing the harassment. And of course, they're not going to feel comfortable going to that person and even maybe going over their head.

[00:18:54] So you want to have human resources, a neutral party in there that's going to investigate it. That's going to take it seriously and address it.

[00:19:01] So most of the time with organizations, they're the employee handbook will say it or HR will say anytime there's some type of concern grievance complaint harassment. Please come and talk to us so that we can address it. And sometimes we do have to get the authorities involved.

[00:19:17] It depends on what's going on. If charges have to be filed, we will bring in authorities depending upon the severity of the case. Sexual sexual assault would be one of those things. Correct. If it wasn't just harassment, it went all the way over to assault. Correct.

[00:19:35] I think so. I've done sexual harassment investigations before and. Okay, the documentation, the facts. I love everything you're saying. I think from a company's perspective, if it's a low performer, it's really easy to get rid of that problem.

[00:19:53] You know, I'm saying like it's really okay, Bobby, complete just a serial harassment. Okay, but Bobby's also a sea player, maybe a deep player. Okay, that to me in my experience, at least has always been easy to reconcile.

[00:20:10] What's harder and I think maybe might be harder for some leaders is when Bobby's a top performer like an A player, especially like in sales or something like that. Bobby's bringing in 20,000 people to the office. I see executives and board members struggle with what to do with Bobby.

[00:20:31] Now, what do you see? I mean, that's just my very limited perspective. What do you see? You're the expert. Yeah. And oftentimes, especially if, if I can't remember the names that you use, I think might have been Bobby.

[00:20:43] But if Bobby was especially he's been with the company a long time. He doesn't have this track record of any type of harassment. Sometimes it's hard to believe, but as HR you have to take the stand.

[00:20:55] You know, these are the facts and it occurred and it's unfortunate, but something has to be done. It has to be addressed and then being addressed may be termination, you know, depending on what it was, whatever type of harassment that you've had.

[00:21:09] But you have to take a stand. You have to take action and address it. You cannot allow it just because Bobby is higher up in the organization. You know, you have you have a duty to protect, you know, the employees of that organization and do the right thing.

[00:21:25] Do you find it's more difficult to get rid of a leader in a company? I mean, I think it's a lot of people are not going to be able to do that.

[00:21:35] Do you find it's more difficult to get rid of a leader in a company or bring a leader up on charges of investigation versus me at a company? Yeah.

[00:21:46] Yeah, yeah, because I'm not going to say always, but yeah, but yes, because leaders oftentimes, especially depending on what their roles are, if they have brought a lot to the organization.

[00:21:58] Yeah, there's a it's more or especially depending on if there's a board involved things like that or what the termination process because for some some individuals depend on the hierarchy of the company.

[00:22:09] The leader may report to the board, you know, not operations. Who do they report to? Who has the termination authority?

[00:22:16] So it's not as easy to say, OK, if you have an employee that's not in a leadership role, it may be easy to go ahead and do the termination.

[00:22:24] Whereas you may have to have their process for a leader maybe that two or three other people stakeholders have to agree to both determinate or what have you.

[00:22:33] So oftentimes that is a little bit more more involved if you would determine a leader and that's regardless if it's harassment or not, whatever it may be. Zero tolerance doesn't matter there. Zero tolerance is not zero tolerance.

[00:22:48] Well, I've seen zero tolerance is not zero tolerance at most of these companies. It's more yeah, it may be.

[00:22:56] But again, the process that's more the process. Yes, a bit more in depth and it's going to take more time because of them being in a leadership role and they may have dual reporting or whatever.

[00:23:08] OK, we need to be performing well, but we need to terminate this person. I've seen it in situations where HR reports to ops or finance and those let's say it's the CFO or CEO just make it easier for the audience to kind of envision.

[00:23:25] They get a claim, they investigate it, they get the facts, they get the documentation and it's for sure. It's this clear case. Now who do they go to when it's people that manage them?

[00:23:39] I think that's the I think that that becomes harder for HR pros to then go. I need to actually go to the CEO and the board and say this is the this is lay everything out and then go from there.

[00:23:54] And that's how it should be. It's not like that. And that's why I am a strong believer that human resources internal HR departments should report directly to the CEO and not other departments.

[00:24:07] And sometimes it has been in cases that I've seen where it's the CEO that the complaint was filed on. And so if that's the case, you know, and ultimately you try to keep the investigation confidential as possible.

[00:24:21] But you may have to and this is regardless of if it's a CEO or not, remember because you have to investigate it, you know, inform them because you got to get their side of the story.

[00:24:29] But then you will go to the board and which says CEO reports to and inform the board because they then have to make a decision, you know, on what what will that look like? You know, any of the action steps from there. Now, so, okay, sorry.

[00:24:43] So if it's so if the claims made against the CEO and I think this is important for people that might be listening who are afraid to make these these claims.

[00:24:54] If the CEO is the one where the is the person that the claim is against, do you automatically go to the board? Is this person automatically reported or is it based on the investigation and the severity of the claim?

[00:25:08] So it all you always let the person file the claim that, you know, you're going to try to keep it as confidential as possible. But nine times out of 10, you will have to inform them because you have to investigate it. You have to get out of the story.

[00:25:21] You know, yeah, but but do we go to the board immediately or is it based on the results of the investigation?

[00:25:28] No, usually it's going to be based because you want to go to the board with all of the facts. You're going to inform the CEO because you need to interview him or her, you know, get their side of the story and then you go to the board with the facts.

[00:25:38] Now, at some point, you still in even initially and it depends on the relationship, which there should be a relationship there with the board where they know who they should contact who are the individuals on the board that they are going to communicate with.

[00:25:50] The board just to give them a heads up to say, hey, we did receive this investigation. Just giving you a heads up letting you know I will circle back once the investigation is complete and then I'll give all of the information to you.

[00:26:00] So you're still going to inform them, but you're not normally you're going to get it to them after once you've done everything so that you can present everything to them at that time.

[00:26:08] But you're going to give them a heads up and let them know in case word gets out. You don't want that to be the last thing that they hear about. So where I'm going with that is the fear of retribution. Retaliation, right? Why people don't report.

[00:26:23] Right. It's why they don't report and if I don't believe that regardless of the outcome of the investigation, if it's if the board who has oversight of the CEO is not made aware, who's to say that CEO can't come back and retaliate against me with no oversight other than someone in HR who originally didn't

[00:26:43] report it to their. And that's also important as I said, you know, to inform the board to let the board know, hey, we have a we're complete in this investigation. In case this happens so that they can see it.

[00:26:55] I think it's 100% retaliation, Ryan. If the CEO can't get away with it, I think they absolutely get away with it. And you have that's why the duty really of that HR department is to inform the employee that the company does not believe in retaliation.

[00:27:12] They have the HR department has to hold true to that and know that if there's some form of retaliation that they need to address it and not allow, you know, that's that that's their role that they should be making sure that there is no retaliation.

[00:27:27] Real quick question. Average sexual harassment investigation used to be six week ish. I know it's probably moved and it's changed, obviously. So for the audience edification, what is that? What does that look like from a time period?

[00:27:45] And honestly, it depends. I mean, six sometimes it can be faster than six weeks to be quite honest. Depending on because it's going to depend on how much how many witnesses you have, how much documentation you have to go through, you know, who all was involved in it.

[00:27:59] So it really varies. So I honestly could just give, you know, say, hey, yes, six weeks, sometimes four weeks is probably like a month because that's something that you want to address.

[00:28:10] Like ASAP, you don't want to sit on it. As soon as you get that in, you want to address it.

[00:28:15] Meet with them, get all of the documentation, find out who the witnesses were, you know, so that way you can meet with them and try to get it addressed ASAP.

[00:28:23] Does if someone comes with a claim of sexual harassment or even harassment, I guess those are two different classes. The does that claim take precedence over something else that might be investigated?

[00:28:38] It might be in the situation at the moment. Does that automatically go to the top of the line or to another? We're going to make a priority. Yeah, I can speak for us that we definitely make it a priority.

[00:28:50] We keep but while we're doing investigations, all of the investigations, we keep employees looped in, you know, time to rise with this look like so we stay in contact with them. But yes, if it's a sexual harassment, it is something that we get on top of immediately.

[00:29:03] We're not going to just wait and say, oh, hey, we have this, you know, building up. We're going to circle back in two weeks. Right, right, right. It's the severity of the claim to assume that you have to factor in.

[00:29:14] So, Lakisha, this is a point in the podcast where you absolutely hate me. So I went to the university of Alabama. So LSU is not a school that I care about.

[00:29:27] Which is why he asked you about LSU earlier. That's exactly what he was setting you up for this. 100%. 100%. 100%. All right. So I had a ethics class at one point and we did a week on racism and the ethics of racism.

[00:29:44] So he was in a class. It's crazy class, crazy professor, crazy class anyhow. And he basically started the class like, do you want your racism in front of you or do you want it behind closed doors? So everyone's arguing, you know, because it's just it's an ethics class.

[00:30:01] Of course we're arguing. So it's like, OK, you want the clan just kind of praying on your street or do you want them in suits that you don't know who they are?

[00:30:11] And I say all that as a backdrop to one of the things we, I think we agreed on. I have to go back is you can't change races like this was this is a really good discussion we got to at the end of the week.

[00:30:25] I think it's a two week. Got to this bit like well, at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter in some ways that you just can't change races. So whether or not they're behind closed doors, you don't know who they are.

[00:30:37] They're hidden in some way or they're out wearing their sheets and doing whatever you can't be able to change them. They're just they're racist. You can't change it. Now, that's the backdrop to the question about sexual harassment.

[00:30:51] Can you change someone that's hardwired to be a person that just doesn't respect sexual boundaries?

[00:31:01] Like in your heart, because you do training and you see all kinds like the information part like I get like getting everybody up to date with what we can and can't do and what not to do at a Christmas party and all that's like I fundamentally totally understand why that is important.

[00:31:18] Supported 100% budget done. The struggle I have is, OK, if that I'll just say guys because I think probably 70% is guys. So if that guy is just hardwired to be that way, there's no amount of training that could change him. He's just going to be that way now.

[00:31:38] Again, tear that apart other than the Alabama part. Tear that apart. So can you change them? So I do there. We've had training sessions, sexual harassment where we have made a lot of progress to individuals that disagree with what sexual harassment was, what it stood for.

[00:32:03] But it's not just a one time thing. That's the part about change is because I do agree that it has to be something that's internally in their heart that they really feel and it has to give you have to give them examples.

[00:32:14] You have to show them how it affects others. They really have to listen and be bought in on that. So it depends on the individual. There's no one size fits all. So I can for me to say, well, yeah, you can change everybody.

[00:32:28] They have to be able to change and understand how it impacts others and how it correlates with the values that they have inside. But it's not a one time thing.

[00:32:38] But you can change a person on the outlook of that because I won't say to the extreme, for some, to give examples, I always have to, this is always a debate to be quite honest with you.

[00:32:50] When we do sexual harassment training, we talk about how the touching, we're from the South. We hug, we touch, we pat. I can tell you to the very day when it became obvious to me that I shouldn't put my arm around somebody in a photo.

[00:33:11] And it was I was in Delhi. I was at a conference and Ryan, it's the CEO of Cynthia. She was wearing a sequin dress anyhow. She said, hey, let's do let's do an Instagram. So post.

[00:33:24] So I put my hand around her and I felt the sequins and I automatically felt dirty like I shouldn't be touching this sequence. And from that day forth, I put my hands like Leon O'Meese. I put my hands in my pockets.

[00:33:37] So like at conferences, we take photos and there's a bunch of people. I put my hands in my pockets. I don't put my hands around anybody else. Yeah. And it's because I was aware, like I felt those sequins on my arm.

[00:33:49] I'm like, I should be feeling another woman's sequence. Something's not right. She didn't care. I actually talked to her about it. Her name is Joanna Joe. And I talked to her. I said, I don't I feel so this just happened. And she goes, oh, I don't care.

[00:34:02] I'm like, yeah, but it's not about you not caring. It impacted me. Like I just can't. It's like sitting in a cubicle and someone comes up and says, how you doing today? I'm like, hmm, like it's weird. Like it feels weird. Yeah.

[00:34:17] Some people, it's their personal space and then like you are in my personal space, you know, don't, you know, don't don't don't touch me. Yeah. Oh, there's a special in the south. We're we're okay with that.

[00:34:28] And like I said, you know, we've done sexual harassment training and it takes time. We really have to sit and show individuals how that can it can offend others because they just see it that we hug. We grew up. So this is interesting.

[00:34:45] And so how does a company say a large global enterprise company? And I know it's based regionally and culture in different areas, but if they have a corporate office in Louisiana, you go down there and everyone's huggy huggy.

[00:35:01] Then you come up here in the affiliate area and you're going to get punched in the face. How do you handle that? Right. Like where is that line?

[00:35:10] Like, you know, it's kind of goes like I have this weird thing, LaKesha, where like if I see you at the gym, I go to the gym with you. I don't want to see you outside of the gym. Like you're in your gym.

[00:35:23] That's your gym that you're the gym friend outside. You look very weird. Outside, you look very weird. I see work the same way. Like I don't want to see work people outside of the work environment because it just it feels weird to me and same thing.

[00:35:38] But use the example of they come up like, hey, how are you doing? Hand on the shoulder. OK, if we're at a bar, different story. It feels different. Now I'm at work like, well, this is my job. Yeah. Why are you touching my shoulder?

[00:35:52] You shouldn't be touching me. It's part of it really is culture. You know, what is the culture? And you get it because like I said, I'm from the South.

[00:36:02] I know a lot of times when I go up north and I'm traveling, I am that if I see you, I want to tell you because that is me. But if I see that is not embrace, it's fine.

[00:36:14] You know, then I'll shake a hand or something like that. It's that awkward moment of like, yeah, do I do that? I got a hack for this as a southerner. Well, Texas is not necessarily part of the South, but what's your heart child?

[00:36:31] So no, no, here's the deal. I like that wasn't a good saying. No, no, no. So the hack is asking somebody, are you a hugger? Yeah. And it's consent. A lot of stuff will come down to respect and consent communication. The fundamental stuff.

[00:36:49] But like I've found it at like conferences, if I meet somebody, let's say I know him, know him. I'll still ask and I'll go, are you a hugger? We hugging? What are we doing? No, let's just say can I feel just listening to that though?

[00:37:03] Like, I feel like you're stared. Are you a hugger? This is weird. That's what I'm talking about. I mean, people ask me all the time, I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm a hugger. I mean, people ask me all the time. Yeah.

[00:37:20] But then you put your hand out for a handshake. You're like, what's wrong with her? She's weird. Why is she not giving me a hug? Like it's so confusing.

[00:37:27] But at the end of the day and so sometimes though, when you put your hand out, the person like, oh, I'm a hugger. They'll say, you know, I'm a hugger. So can you hug? Like, give me, you know, come on, bring it in, give me a hug.

[00:37:39] So it just depends, you know. Let's go back to COVID and do the elbow bumps and we're all good. And then you're good. I don't mind the hug person. I don't mind. But it's just that awkward moment of like, oh, do I? What are we doing?

[00:37:56] And am I going to be arrested for this? Like these are things that go through my head now. Yeah. Yeah. Understood. Understood.

[00:38:04] And the best way honestly is I will say, like William said, is to ask, but just to know also company-wise from a culture standpoint, you know what the culture is and what that person is. Usually work with them. Right.

[00:38:16] Instead of just going up and hugging or whatever, understanding this is their space. You know, they're good, but just being very mindful, especially of the touchy touchy, you know. Yeah. It's the intent. You said it earlier. I think you said it a couple of times.

[00:38:29] It comes down to some of it come down to intent. Some people just hug to hug because that's how they shake hands. Right. And some people hug for something else. Yeah. And so it does. People pick up on that and they recognize it. Oh, 100 percent.

[00:38:42] They will push away. And you have to know, okay, hey, if that's the case, I'm doing way too much. I need to stop and don't do it again. You know, especially if you get 1.5 seconds and don't sniff the head. You're good. You can't linger.

[00:38:56] Don't ever work for a company that I'm consulting with, please. No, no. Last question for me is do you get asked about return on investment or metrics or like what they want to do training? It's in their heart.

[00:39:14] They know that maybe they know they have a problem, et cetera. But for whatever reason, they don't feel like they can justify the expense that I struggle with that bit. Is that is that a thing? First of all, and if so, how do you respond?

[00:39:30] So I'm trying to think. I don't think we most of them want to know not so much for actual statistics or anything. Right. They want to know ultimately how once it's done, how will it impact the organization long term? You just triggered me.

[00:39:51] How do you make it lasting sustainable? You just triggered me. Okay. This has been great. We had that when they come to us, they'll tell us the employees are all excited about it.

[00:40:03] But once in the past when they've done the training, so with us coming in, how once we do our training, what can make it sustainable? And that's what I was going to go back to. It can't be really a one time thing.

[00:40:16] If you want to make something last, it also has to be something that you really infuse inside of the organization. You have to live it. You have to breathe it. You really have to mean it if you're going to do it.

[00:40:26] So let's talk about how we can keep this going, keep that momentum going and how you're going to implement this inside of the organization. So you said the word done. And that triggered something for me. And what it triggered is, is it ever done?

[00:40:40] And honestly, it's not if you want to continue to have a successful progressive organization because as the organization evolves, it's not just a checklist. You have to continue. It's not a one and done.

[00:40:55] As the organization evolves, you continue to evolve and you want to make sure that you go back, you may revisit these things. Or there may be some additives or whatever that you want to add into it to make it better. But no, no, never done.

[00:41:10] I don't think it's ever done. So William, this is my, what's the word I'm looking for? My theory. It's your story. My story. I've always, I hate when organizations push diversity recruitment onto a recruiter to sell diversity to candidates because it's not their job.

[00:41:32] That is the job of the company to build that culture or that feeling within the company that then resonates through the entire process. I feel like this is the same thing.

[00:41:44] This is the same thing where are they willing to one, have an organization like you in the company? They got to be committed. Committed, yeah. Like it's a three month engagement, right? You're going to be here for five years, right? You're going to be here.

[00:41:59] You're part of our organization up until the point that we need to have our own internal organization, HR organization to run this for us. But are you in the community? Right. You're not just sponsoring local sports teams, but are you in the community?

[00:42:13] Are you putting your money behind this as a cause? Is it something that you value? Exactly. Is it a part of the values the company that they eat, live, breathe by? Yes. It becomes a part of who they are. Then you feel safe. I can see that.

[00:42:32] I think that's a good point, Ryan. When organizations just say, hey, we're going to make diversity a priority and they just put it on the recruiter. Really, is it a priority?

[00:42:41] Are you really just trying to meet certain statistics to say, hey, we recruited or we've hired this number of people, but then is it something that you really value? The value behind that has to come way before that.

[00:42:57] The answer to that is just how does Raytheon take them from Lockheed? How do you recruit in Canada to wait for your competitor? That's what I feel like this should not be, obviously.

[00:43:11] If you're creating a workplace where harassment is zero tolerance, it's got to be every fiber of your being. Yes. Like you just said this a number of times, it's got to be your values. If it's not your values, you're half-stepping.

[00:43:27] You're giving it window service or putting lipstick on a pig, whatever. That's why communication is so important because just sticking it up there and stick it on a wall and say, hey, these are some things our word, our motto for values. It has to be communicated.

[00:43:41] It has to be discussed what it means to the organization. Josh Mike walks off stage. Okay. We ran out of time. That just means we have to have her back because we didn't even talk about mental health and how all this stuff impacts mental health. You know what?

[00:44:00] That's our next show. Thank you so much for carving out time for you, for us in the audience. I know you're busy. Thank you so much.