Neurodivergent Talent: Crystal Lay Explores Best Practices in Employment and Inclusivity

[00:00:00] They can hear it, they can see it, they can see each individual flickers which triggers migraines like people with ADHD. We've seen an increase in migraines with fluorescent lights like there's a whole lot of reasons that this is helpful.

[00:00:15] And then for even for people with like bipolar and depressive disorder, the extra like the snug feeling around the head actually reduces depressive episodes.

[00:00:27] And I left out at work on Monday morning, check out the barf breaking news acquisitions research and funding. It's a look back at the week that was so you can prepare for the week that is subscribe on your favorite podcast app.

[00:00:57] Crystal, how you doing today? You know what I'm doing good. I'm I'm breathing. I can't complain. I was horrible. The horrible barrier for injury but but yeah, it is life is good.

[00:01:08] Good, good, good. I think we're both Ryan and I are a little bit behind the curve as it relates to neurodivergent talent and neurodivergent, neurodivergent employment.

[00:01:22] I'm not able to say the word first. Yeah, that's that's a neurodivergent person in me. And just for the record, you didn't even introduce me today.

[00:01:32] Oh, yeah, just went right to crystal. You're like, hey, you're sure your shirt is it's, it's, it's, is it is it is it moving the lines? Like is that cool? Yeah, I need to stop wearing lines. I know that's TV 101 right?

[00:01:46] Yeah, well, you know, crystal act like we have no idea what neurodiveristy is and neurodivergent talent is. And let's just start there.

[00:01:56] No, it's totally fine. So if we can step back one, one second I'd like for people to understand why I'm even qualified to have this conversation with people other than just it's interesting.

[00:02:08] But I always like to know like why is this person talking about something? And so just by way of introduction, I run an employer brand recruitment marketing and talent transformation firm. We solve business problems usually around helping companies higher and retain talent.

[00:02:24] During the pandemic, I noticed that the coping skills that people had that allowed them to function at work. And as a proudly neurodivergent person, I can tell you I can spot a lot of them.

[00:02:35] But you know, when I was a blue eating things online, it was like yeah, you're coping mechanisms that you kind of cobbled together to make work work.

[00:02:44] Aren't working at home. And I really wanted to understand why I mean some of it can be environment, some of it can figure out like the world was panic like all of these things in the beginning like okay, yeah, check, check, check.

[00:02:55] As time went on, those systems were still failing. And so I wanted to understand like why you know what is it from an employment perspective that we need to do differently so people can function function because we can't change people's brains, but we can change the way we approach work.

[00:03:12] So I was in the middle of getting my master's degree when people were learning to bake bread. I was like I'm gonna go back to school. This sounds good.

[00:03:20] I know it would have been so much easier to say it. But so my dissertation.

[00:03:27] Well, my dissertation was centered around neurodivergence and specifically it conducted the largest study in the world on neurodivergent in talent attraction recruitment and employment. So looking at are the systems that we build sufficient for more than one neurotype.

[00:03:47] And the answer was no, this was not a little study. It was a three year study. We surveyed well two years of data collection one year of analysis, but we studied over 30,000, 31,000 some odd people.

[00:04:05] It's several times larger than the learner study quantitatively and 126 qualitatively meaning I did 126 interviews. So really big population got to learn quite a bit about where some of our gaps are.

[00:04:20] And so when you look at what is a neurodivergent person, when we talk about neurodivergence, what we're talking about is just really the way that our brain functions. So we have what's generally known as neurotypical.

[00:04:33] That's when the brain functions the way we expect the brain to function you process information typically right the way that is expected.

[00:04:41] You're able to kind of function in any environment the way that one would generally establish you might still be a dick, but your brain works the way it's supposed to right.

[00:04:52] And supposed to is an air quotes that you really can't see on my finger. That's the way I look at it.

[00:04:57] Neurodivergent is when the brain for whatever reason, sometimes it's chemical, sometimes it's literally the way it's wired. We're still learning a lot about the neurodivergent brain.

[00:05:09] So quick aside, autism for example, there are samples and studies of brains where where you would expect there to be ridges. It's actually smooth brain material and vice versa. So it's not that there's a deformity in the brain or it's wrong. It's just literally wired differently and as a process of but like an output of being wired differently.

[00:05:31] The way that someone who is neurodivergent experiences the world is sometimes different than expected right. So I say that in that way it's not the cleanest definition in the world, but the reason that I put it that way is because as we learn more and we recognize this isn't like a disorder or you're not broken, you're not damaged, you're not less than neurodivergence is a sociological construct right.

[00:05:56] So the concept is more sociological as opposed to a medical construct that's focused around what therapy do you need, what social security benefits might you need, what government assistance might you need in order to be able to function.

[00:06:09] Neurodivergence is just looking at it as like more of a social therapeutic construct so how can we help you overcome any barriers in your environment to be able to be successful.

[00:06:21] And so from an employment perspective, we really should be looking at neurodivergence from that sociological perspective as opposed to the medical construct because it's a not our job to fix people and me these people are broken.

[00:06:34] They just need a little bit of a different approach.

[00:06:38] Yeah, right. So start us off with the survey take us through the survey what was that about how did you how did you conduct it?

[00:06:45] Yeah, so that's a great question and I absolutely pulled it up so that we could have a good conversation about that because it's been hot minutes since I looked at it.

[00:06:56] So the survey as a whole was really originally meant to look at EVP like that's where it started because we attract people off of our employer value proposition which

[00:07:10] have a whole other episode on how EVP is just fundamentally after we need to go back to the drawing board but

[00:07:17] but the idea behind it is that we're looking at a value alignment from from or or psych were looking at value alignment between the individual and the environment.

[00:07:28] Well, it's great except we build EVP the same general way right one way and if we're seeing there are different ways of processing information and there's different neuro types.

[00:07:39] Do those different neuro types synthesize that information and put the same level of importance on all of the same things that we expect them to right are they reacting typically or divergently to what we're putting out and so I wanted to understand that.

[00:07:54] Maybe part of the problem is the way we're bringing people in to begin with because we know neurodivergent people tend to be on performance improvement plans and have lower overall work satisfaction scoring in the first six months of employment so that has to have something to do with the recruitment phase.

[00:08:10] So that's what I set up.

[00:08:12] What I ended up getting though was a lot bigger than that.

[00:08:16] So I wanted to believe the data was largely around conducting an EVP survey right so I will step back and say our EVP surveys are a little bit different than what a lot of agencies put out that's not a sell or I'm better than worse than anyone else.

[00:08:32] We're just very focused on person environment fit and so the thought process behind that is people who don't work for you do not care at all what your values as a company are they just don't they care about their values.

[00:08:45] And so what you need to find out is do their individual values align with what they're going to experience in their work environment day and end day out can you fulfill what they need to self actualize and perform.

[00:08:57] Because the point of EVP wasn't supposed to be a sales gimmick or a let me tell you why you should love us it was meant to drive business revenue so for an order for to do that you have to help the individual worker self actualize they can't self actualize if they're not being being fulfilled.

[00:09:14] From a values perspective if they're not being fulfilled from a needs perspective so that's how we build EVP so I took that survey which.

[00:09:26] I'll hold a different conversation about that is a point to but it's it's fascinating in and of itself 166 questions around values.

[00:09:33] And then at the end of that appended questions around neuro diversity and neuro divergence so do people consider themselves to be neuro divergent is that because they've self identified or do they have a diagnoses if either way do they have accommodations at work if they have accommodations at work like were they self accommodated or did they disclose to the employer

[00:09:54] and then get accommodations from the employer if they didn't disclose why didn't they disclose right and so we found some really interesting things out in this survey.

[00:10:04] One of which is that for the people who didn't disclose which by the way was nine out of every 10 neuro divergent people chose not to disclose.

[00:10:13] So there are accommodations were all self accommodated but for the people that didn't disclose it was because of experiences they had during the recruitment process that made them feel psychologically unsafe they didn't feel like it was safe to disclose that information.

[00:10:25] Like hmm okay we have work to do so so that was interesting qualitatively we saw some really interesting things as well so quantitatively a larger percentage of people were willing to say yes I have neuro divergence.

[00:10:42] It's either self identified or you know medically identified and diagnosed when we were talking with people in interviews that number again went down so what did we learn from that people don't feel safe disclosing verbally that they have what's considered to be a disability or something that may make them be anything other than everybody else at work right and not submission they literally talked about it.

[00:11:11] Do you think that they're not they're not divulging this because of stigma or because of the environment that the workplace has created.

[00:11:21] Yes to both.

[00:11:24] I was going to also add that it's they don't want to they don't want to do anything that ding them out of the process.

[00:11:33] Yeah so if they discuss that in the attraction phase like with a recruiter right if it comes up as like okay do you need any accommodations well in their mind my gut tells me in their mind if they say yes that puts them either further down on the list or doxamount or whatever and so they just don't disclose I mean crystal you're the expert so is that issue true yeah yeah in a very large way it is true it's not not always the case for everyone either

[00:12:01] there's exceptions but by and large that was the feedback that we got back is like it's not safe and so following this survey I went and ran a different experiment there meant no one call anything like super academically sound I just went and applied for a couple hundred jobs and said I have a a neuro diagnosis you know I have ADHD which by the way I totally do.

[00:12:23] So happens I was eight if you can't tell it from this conversation there will be something shiny it'll happen so disclosed upfront right which I when I had jobs job jobs like that was never something that I disclosed it also wasn't really asked so didn't have to but

[00:12:43] but to disclose it upfront in a hundred different jobs that I applied for and then I didn't disclose it in a hundred other jobs.

[00:12:50] In some of the jobs we had someone else with a similar resume like almost exactly fake resumes whatever but go in and apply.

[00:12:59] So I would get job rejections back like within an hour they would with the same qualifications not get one back now is it because of that I have absolutely no idea right like I can't prove it's like I said it's not academically sound

[00:13:12] but it certainly reinforced what I saw and what I learned in those conversations and in the survey which was there's a belief that disclosing at the recruitment process is going to lead to higher levels of rejection rates and if you don't disclose.

[00:13:28] It's problematic now do you know if the if the responses the rejections that you were getting back or automated or were they from a human recruit.

[00:13:42] A lot of them were automated right that they would have had to have been for some of them like one of them my favorite one was literally six minutes after I applied there was a rejection so it's like I doubt someone in their ATS system has it set up to say if they if they disclose it you know then reject them that would be like asking begging for a lawsuit right.

[00:14:03] So I doubt that's the case and actually in that specific company after doing a little more digging what I found out is that they just arbitrarily reject a certain number of candidates they don't review all of their candidates.

[00:14:18] That's a different problem for a different day but if you happen to be someone that was near divergent which is not a small population by the way we haven't discussed that yet but since it's Pi Day we can talk about pie charts that came out of that like one of our

[00:14:32] One of the findings of that big part of the findings of that was like how prevalent is neurodivergence has it changed from our belief of 15%

[00:14:40] It has it's actually closer to 20% with a diagnosis and almost one in four if you include those who self identify.

[00:14:48] So sorry that self identify and refuse to identify right because you have the way that we split this out

[00:14:56] And actually if I can pull it up I'm happy to share it with you on screen but the way that we split this out it was like I have it

[00:15:03] With a diagnosis. I have it self identified. I don't know if I am or not

[00:15:08] I choose not to disclose or no, I'm not and I choose not to disclose was almost 7% of population and that's

[00:15:16] Fascinating right because they could have said I don't know they could have said no

[00:15:21] I said as I am not answering that question which means some percentage of that are and

[00:15:26] When we looked at like the responses, we only needed like 2% of that population to have been yeah

[00:15:31] I have it. I'm just not telling you and that would have put us at one and four

[00:15:37] So think about any employer

[00:15:44] Right one for

[00:15:47] No, no, it's okay

[00:15:50] The question I want to ask is it's it's tangential

[00:15:54] So the talented traction

[00:15:56] Journey if you will that a lot of employers have

[00:16:01] seem to be

[00:16:03] kind of LCD

[00:16:04] Lo is common denominator

[00:16:06] Right and that could be a good thing. I guess we could make an argument for that

[00:16:10] But it could also be a bad thing because we're not making kind of personalized

[00:16:15] Experiences and personalized journeys etc

[00:16:17] So the question is and you really I just want to get your take on

[00:16:22] Where do you see AI

[00:16:24] helping us

[00:16:27] Create personalized journeys or helping the candidates create personalized journeys or

[00:16:32] Abrands creating with AI creating personalized journeys for people that are diversion

[00:16:38] so

[00:16:40] That's a lot of near-down pack. Go ahead. Yeah, I was saying that's a tricky question

[00:16:43] Does it have the potential to do it? Absolutely

[00:16:46] but

[00:16:48] But this is a really big

[00:16:53] Systems AI systems are trained off of the input that it's given and so part of what we'll train to is who you reject

[00:17:00] Right

[00:17:00] So if your

[00:17:02] population is if your employment population is

[00:17:05] Made up of a high level a level of divergent people and that's been disclosed and you they have that data

[00:17:10] It'll train on that

[00:17:11] Conversely if you're rejecting

[00:17:14] Narrative virgin candidates more than you're bringing them in it's gonna train on that too

[00:17:18] So there's a really high likelihood that your AI will probably reinforce your organizational biases more than it will break them at least at this point

[00:17:28] Okay, have you have you seen a big difference

[00:17:31] Pre-pandemic to post pandemic

[00:17:35] in terms of disposers or

[00:17:39] In in terms while let's letters a lot of

[00:17:43] Identification yeah

[00:17:45] People disclosing as they're applying was it were was it less safe for people?

[00:17:52] Pre-pandemic as opposed to post pandemic where there's more comfort level

[00:17:56] So I don't have hard and fast numbers on this. I'm just how you my opinion based off of the things that I've read

[00:18:03] So anecdotes

[00:18:06] Tell me that people feel less safe disclosing their narrative urgence now

[00:18:10] Which is odd to me because we have a much higher

[00:18:13] Conversation level around that but we also have a much more protracted job search

[00:18:17] And so anytime that you're seeing protracted job searches people are gonna do what they can to minimize their own risk

[00:18:24] Which often means not disclosing

[00:18:27] When we look at the data

[00:18:30] The actual data coming in there is a higher level of a higher number of people being diagnosed now part of that is

[00:18:35] We continue to evolve our own understanding of neurodivergence and as that happens

[00:18:40] Then we're going to see more neurodivergent diagnoses right as doctors become more aware of different things as the people conducting different evaluations become more aware of different diagnoses

[00:18:50] In the way that that looks and feels

[00:18:51] We'll see higher occurrences of that but there was a big uptick of it because there was a big uptick of people seeking out mental health supports

[00:19:00] Deering and after the pandemic

[00:19:02] And as you do that well things that you have will become will become identified and disclosed

[00:19:07] So what we're actually seeing a lot of and it's it's fascinating to me the ADHD uptick was expected

[00:19:13] Right, and that actually can be caused by a lot of different things

[00:19:17] Somebody said adult ADHD isn't a thing. That's the stupidest effing thing

[00:19:20] I've ever heard if you had ADHD as a kid you have it as an adult you do not grow out of it

[00:19:25] But you do learn to cope with it, right? And so that that's good

[00:19:29] But for adults who hadn't received that diagnosis yet like there we we expected to see more of that

[00:19:35] We didn't necessarily expect to see was an uptick and autism diagnoses

[00:19:39] Um and we are seeing that

[00:19:42] Which is a double edged sword for adults right because a lot of the

[00:19:47] therapies and

[00:19:49] Systems set up for for help with that are designed around children

[00:19:52] Not around teenagers and adults, right? So they're diagnosed with this thing that they don't fully understand

[00:19:59] But it may be like hey, this is why you've always struggled with

[00:20:03] A lot of noise ways or couldn't stand to hear someone eat and also, you know, maybe don't have a lot of friends

[00:20:08] Right? Whatever the case may be or this might be why you struggle with

[00:20:13] Changes in your routine and language flexibility. There's all these different things

[00:20:17] Well, great, but that doesn't help you necessarily learn how to navigate that

[00:20:20] So we're seeing an uptick and diagnoses, but no uptick and subsequent support for these people

[00:20:26] Um, and that's really difficult because it really is going to fall on the employer

[00:20:31] To help create an environment where this person can actually navigate their own diagnoses and what they need

[00:20:38] So return to office

[00:20:41] Currently known as RTO

[00:20:44] It's the movie coming to a theater near you

[00:20:47] What's uh, what's your what's your take on neurodivergent talent and RTO

[00:20:54] If you like swiping then head over to substack and search up work defined

[00:20:58] WRK defined and subscribe to the weekly newsletter

[00:21:03] Uh, currently thinking about it

[00:21:04] And no, no, I am a lot. Uh, it's a double ed sword like on the one hand

[00:21:08] The reality is the office offers a lot more structure

[00:21:12] Uh and then a home environment does

[00:21:16] When we're talking about structure, I want to be really clear because

[00:21:19] You hold your own systems and structured within side your environment

[00:21:23] And you know how to navigate that right right but um so from a for an ADHD person

[00:21:31] Well, it's probably not more fun

[00:21:34] And maybe not as comfortable um as being in their own environment

[00:21:38] It might actually be helpful to keeping them to task

[00:21:41] And I say them including myself right like for you kind of learn what you learn and but it it depends

[00:21:47] Very much depends on how the environment is set up

[00:21:49] So the open office environment where you're walking into this giant room

[00:21:53] Like that is a nightmare for someone with ADHD

[00:21:55] If that's your office environment return to work is probably not something I would force upon your population

[00:22:00] For example

[00:22:01] If you have you know quiet spaces to work and individualized work areas where people can actually focus and then you have

[00:22:09] Um some level of meetings for social interaction and then back to focus times

[00:22:15] If people are able to really set a structured calendar

[00:22:19] Return to work can be a really good thing for productivity

[00:22:21] But it's so organizationally dependent

[00:22:24] And anytime you force someone to do something that they're not ready to do

[00:22:28] You can expect diminished productivity

[00:22:31] So the idea of forcing people back to work doesn't sit well with me to me that's a real estate decision and not a productivity decision

[00:22:39] Um, but

[00:22:41] It's being made by a population and generational population that spent their formative years in an office

[00:22:48] Right so we all live off our own bias. We are biases right we operate off of that

[00:22:53] And so their bias is this is the way that we should do things

[00:22:56] So anytime there's a different productivity or I have a giant least payment

[00:23:00] I have to make on all of this giant real estate that no one's in

[00:23:04] There's gonna be that feeling we need to get back to the way things were we need to get back to the way things work

[00:23:08] But study is

[00:23:11] As if the way we were in 2019 was awesome

[00:23:15] Uh

[00:23:16] Right, right. What is it mean? It was actually good

[00:23:19] One of the things I'm really interested in as you as you talk is

[00:23:23] As a neurodivergent person or talent. Let's just say

[00:23:28] Are you on a maturity curve of understanding your own needs as being a neurodivergent person

[00:23:36] Like like again early adoption mainstream

[00:23:39] lagger like you understand kind of what are you like really what makes you ticker where you thrive like we've talked about

[00:23:46] How do you solve for thrive for a while but it seems like there's also an individual responsibility

[00:23:52] Yeah

[00:23:53] Yeah, I mean there's an organizational responsibility too. I

[00:23:57] Yeah, you don't think absolutely

[00:24:00] No, that's fair so like for myself

[00:24:02] Yes, I have a really good understanding of what I need to work and how to make that work and I've used accommodations since I was

[00:24:09] eight

[00:24:10] Right, so I have um probably in the minority as it relates to understanding my own diagnoses

[00:24:15] My parents did a really good job of making sure the school system was involved in teaching me how to accommodate and advocate for myself early on

[00:24:22] That's not the norm

[00:24:24] Right, so what we often see is even with younger workers who had i.e.

[00:24:28] peas and individualized education plans in 504s

[00:24:32] You know special education plans to help them get accommodations

[00:24:35] They're not taught how to transfer that into a work environment

[00:24:39] And there's no real teaching of that in employment either right because let's be real

[00:24:45] We're not training recruiters on that. We're not really training HR people on that

[00:24:49] So unless you just happen to have someone in HR who has a psychology or social work background

[00:24:54] You probably don't have the right people in place for that

[00:24:58] so

[00:25:00] Once you graduate my point all of that is once you graduate high school

[00:25:04] University and the work environment is not set up to help you understand any of that

[00:25:10] Most people will buy a couple books or see a psychologist or a therapist for a few months to a couple of years

[00:25:16] To like get some coping mechanisms maybe that's building lists

[00:25:19] We're lying on outlook whatever it is

[00:25:22] And that's about as far as it goes because that's about as far as we've helped people go

[00:25:28] Right, yes you're responsible for your own your own needs and understanding

[00:25:32] But you can only do what's put in front of you or available to do and we as a country

[00:25:38] And and really the broader world like i'm not just gonna like put this to the United States. There's a lot of countries that struggle with us

[00:25:45] Don't have systems set up to really help people navigate that unless they were transitioned during high school

[00:25:51] So our kids will get the benefit of a better working world

[00:25:55] But our generation not as much

[00:25:59] There are things that you can do though like for anyone who's listening who's like hey, I'm neurodivergent and I'm screwed

[00:26:04] um

[00:26:06] Welcome to the come to the club

[00:26:08] But there are there are things they can help you if you have and what's called an IDD

[00:26:13] It's an intellectual disability a diagnosis so ADHD learning um learning processing disorder dyspraxia dyslexia

[00:26:20] sensory deprivation I like not that we're sensory processing disorder

[00:26:24] Um, Tourette's any number of things then you are eligible to take part in a program called vocational rehabilitation every state has one

[00:26:33] And this is also good for employers to understand because every state has programs for you to utilize people who are part of vocational

[00:26:40] We have and you will get fabulous tax benefits and also supports

[00:26:44] To help you build programs that will help a broader number of people

[00:26:48] That have neurodivergence in your organization

[00:26:51] And if you are putting together a work environment that supports the neurodivergent

[00:26:56] You will become what your actual goal is which is to be neurodiverse

[00:27:00] A person is neurodivergent an organization is neurodiverse

[00:27:04] But for you to be neurodiverse you have to have the systems in place to be able to welcome those people and then stick

[00:27:11] Sorry tangent let's

[00:27:13] Let's let's dig a little deeper into that how does an organization now obviously you I think you may have thrown us out earlier

[00:27:21] X number percent of organizations are not

[00:27:23] Neurodiverse at the moment

[00:27:26] For a company that's trying to be or really wants to be in a one-on-one vest in this area

[00:27:32] What did they need to do?

[00:27:34] How do they do this? Yeah, so one step one

[00:27:37] I identify what like identify your why right so

[00:27:42] Um and sometimes your why is like because it's morally and ethically the right thing to do and that can be a

[00:27:48] Perfectly fine. Why but if you don't have a why you want to be something

[00:27:52] The chances of you sticking through that program's like sticking through the pain of putting that program in and integrating and training your workforce

[00:27:59] And so i'm gonna stick so understand your why

[00:28:02] Um once you have that look at his doing things right and i'm not gonna say doing it right because no one's doing it all the way right

[00:28:11] We're all still learning

[00:28:12] Which is great because that means if you try something and it gets mucked up you will not be alone

[00:28:17] but companies that are doing

[00:28:19] And really investing a lot into understanding

[00:28:23] Neurodivergence and how to work that into something in a more meaningful way than we built you know this program for 12 interns with autism

[00:28:31] By the way, I have an Autistic steps on. I have an absolute love for people with autism

[00:28:35] I think it's great that we're building employment programs for them

[00:28:38] But hiring 12 interns and saying now we're neurodiverse. That's not a thing

[00:28:43] Right that you do not get cookies or brownies for that um

[00:28:46] but

[00:28:47] Microsoft

[00:28:49] Doing a really good job has done a really good job with neurodivergent friendly design

[00:28:55] Making sure that even from the attraction process that whether putting is accessible

[00:29:00] Their language so if you're if you're trying to build something out your job

[00:29:04] Descriptions in your job posts your career site your recruiting materials start there

[00:29:10] We use a lot of flowery language and a lot of subjective terms in our job posts and job descriptions that make it really difficult for someone with any

[00:29:17] number of neurodiverse diagnoses

[00:29:21] Snouradivergent diagnosis. Sorry to be able to understand

[00:29:25] And so taking help my the one that I pick on all the time is must have good communication skills. What the hell does that mean?

[00:29:34] What does it mean? I mean, we kind of know right we know that what you're really trying to say is you need to be able to

[00:29:41] communicate well with a

[00:29:44] broad audience of people generally speaking various different levels need to be able to have good you know

[00:29:48] Britain presentations whatever it is

[00:29:51] What it ever is that you need that makes you put that in something if it's not just well

[00:29:55] It was in the legal domescription then say what you need right a lot of neurodivergent

[00:30:03] Diagnoses have language

[00:30:06] flexibility issues. So they they will take things very literally

[00:30:10] Right if you say I need good communication skills and they can't quantify that in their own mind

[00:30:15] You are inadvertently

[00:30:17] discouraging that person from applying to your organization

[00:30:21] And that's a one example of dozens

[00:30:24] All right, so I've

[00:30:26] Preface by saying

[00:30:29] I may get hate all good

[00:30:32] Because it's really something that I'm interested in

[00:30:36] Yeah

[00:30:39] That are watching they'll get the thumbs up the other one

[00:30:44] So so the question I have is and I'm with all of this I under fully understand what we're talking

[00:30:51] But at what point does an employer? Where's that line? What's that point that the employer has to look at this and say

[00:30:57] All right guys, we're talking about communication skills. I can't list out 90 97 things on every job description

[00:31:05] What is that line when you're working with an employer where you're finding they're getting frustrated and they're like okay crystal

[00:31:13] Back up like this is a job description like what we're way across the line

[00:31:18] So I'm usually having to do that with them not the other way around so very very rarely

[00:31:23] I add to someone's job post

[00:31:25] I'm almost always cutting out a lot of extraneous junk that they don't really need

[00:31:31] Um that doesn't really add to but definitely takes away

[00:31:35] So just just as a point of fact most organizations job posts are way way way too long

[00:31:42] And they can flip themselves

[00:31:45] Their language is confusing so a lot of what I do is cut out not add to um, so just just but I think the broader point of like when is one is too much

[00:31:55] um is a valid question

[00:31:57] And I'm gonna answer it in a really offensive way if you're ready for it

[00:32:03] Yeah, and I and I asked that question what I asked the question out of love because it's really something I can see an employer

[00:32:11] Saying okay, like I'm trying my best but what is

[00:32:15] Okay, so here's my offensive way of answering this question

[00:32:19] So would you ask that if what we were talking about was a pregnant woman

[00:32:25] Would you ask how much is too much if what we're talking about is a black man

[00:32:32] And the answer to that in both areas

[00:32:37] So if we're if we're not gonna do it for other minority populations, why are you doing it for the largest minority population on the planet?

[00:32:46] And the answer is because I can't see it

[00:32:48] Right, I can't see it. I don't understand it and it's hard

[00:32:54] It's hard is not a good reason to not do right by a human being

[00:33:00] So that's that's generally the conversation I literally have with organizations

[00:33:04] It is not comfortable but it is also bleeds over into you know, just pull your boots up by the boot straps and just get on with it

[00:33:11] so

[00:33:11] You know what which is an older generation kind of way of just saying yeah, I don't want to hear you know that just go to your job

[00:33:19] um

[00:33:21] Who's you know, this is what is that phrase that people say what gets to measure it?

[00:33:25] What matters matters what matters is what gets matters or I don't know who said it or whatever

[00:33:31] Hey Biden. What are you trying to say measure what matters yeah

[00:33:35] That's nice. Sorry

[00:33:40] Sorry, I'm sorry, I'm a recruiter you've been in the trenches doing this stuff for a long time

[00:33:44] I

[00:33:45] Got the answer. I missed the question. What was the question? Sorry

[00:33:50] Oh, I haven't asked the question. Oh, thank you. Go ahead. Okay

[00:33:55] Yeah, it takes me a while to get there. That's why the Biden reference is so

[00:33:59] Oh wonderful

[00:34:01] The who's who's responsible for neurodiversity out of company

[00:34:05] Because if we say everyone my fear is we say everyone

[00:34:10] That's not going to work and if we say it's one person Sally and

[00:34:15] DEI that includes I guess would be something that we would be under

[00:34:19] That doesn't work for me either

[00:34:22] Yeah, no, no, no, that's me by the way. So who's responsible for neurodiversity?

[00:34:27] So

[00:34:28] My answer is always the buckstops with the CEO right like who's really responsible for making sure an organization is diverse

[00:34:34] It's the CEO why because there are so many different parts to this

[00:34:39] and

[00:34:40] You know everybody's got a hand in different areas of it

[00:34:45] There shouldn't be one person that's responsible for it other than the CEO because

[00:34:51] You're only going to be able to to execute and really influence your area now

[00:34:56] What I do in recruitment may influence what Sally and DEI is able to do but

[00:35:03] But from it's our perspective

[00:35:05] We particularly in the United States look at DEIB backwards right diversity is the outcome and the output

[00:35:14] Inclusion equity and belonging is the is the program is the focus and if you do that right

[00:35:21] Then diversity will follow right but when we focus on diversity as the upfront measurement like we kind of

[00:35:30] You're putting the cart before the horse

[00:35:32] for recruiting

[00:35:34] Like because we know that recruiting is actually where a fair amount of this gets mucked up just from jump

[00:35:40] The the expectation the responsibility is to make sure that the materials that we're putting out the messages that we're sharing

[00:35:48] The process by which we recruit people and interview them

[00:35:53] It's accessible. It's fair. It's equitable not equal well equitable right

[00:35:59] And so that is the responsibility of recruitment and then once someone is brought in yep, okay

[00:36:08] Okay, so you were gonna you ask the here's the here's the here's the thing that's a rub

[00:36:14] The push in the last five years has been to standardize interviews right but we all read the same stuff

[00:36:20] Standardize interviews. It's gonna reduce our bias not going to eliminate bias, but it's gonna reduce twice

[00:36:24] We're gonna give everyone the exact same interview

[00:36:27] Okay sounds good in theory

[00:36:30] But what if you're doing with someone that's divergent

[00:36:34] That's different and we're a standard interview that standard same standard interview would make them

[00:36:42] not

[00:36:44] Not

[00:36:46] Shine in the same way is a typical

[00:36:49] Neuro-typical person. Yeah, I'm dealing with this conflict right in my mind

[00:36:55] Not anywhere else most no

[00:36:57] In my mind of like standardize interviews and okay, but what if someone's divergent

[00:37:04] How do we make the interview to where they can shot

[00:37:07] So you're going in the same place. Yeah

[00:37:09] Yeah, I was and and Chris all let me add on to that and you know

[00:37:14] She'll kill me if she ever hears this but I highly doubt my daughter's ever gonna listen to it

[00:37:18] She's gonna get this far into the episodes

[00:37:21] Obviously

[00:37:23] So she's she is on an IEP and she has trouble taking tests. She'll do really well on her assignments

[00:37:32] But the test she'll get four out of 60

[00:37:35] She just can't do it right so they take her out of class

[00:37:37] They put her into this small group. She works with a woman. She she studies

[00:37:43] She does her work. She just can't do it in that open environment

[00:37:46] She needs that woman with her in order to understand and really

[00:37:51] Do well in the test and she just had one the other day

[00:37:54] We're talking about earlier this week or this week. She was studying

[00:37:57] She got a 91% on her test which was fantastic. She was super excited

[00:38:01] But the five days leading up to that

[00:38:04] Was just observed for her she was frustrated trying to study trying to understand trying to learn

[00:38:10] And she knew the work and she said I know this I know how to do this. I don't need to study. I understand

[00:38:16] But if she takes that test in the regular classroom

[00:38:19] All bets are off like she's not passing. She's getting four or five right out of the 60

[00:38:24] The matter of the standard interview

[00:38:27] For sure exactly and so and so yeah, so that's where I was going

[00:38:31] I was gonna use the other example yours is probably better

[00:38:35] No, no, it's totally fine. No, that's that's a really

[00:38:39] Look these are really valid questions and challenges that we need to solve for

[00:38:42] Fortunately, there is a solution for that and it kind of comes from the IEP

[00:38:47] So for this specific question

[00:38:49] We need to standardize the process so that we're able to objectively grade check all you have to do is give these people the question in advance

[00:38:58] You should give it to everybody in advance because by the way your interview quality will go way up

[00:39:03] If you're not sticking people on the spot

[00:39:06] Sometimes you need to actually judge what someone will do on the spot sometimes that's a valid thing

[00:39:12] You can add that in as a final piece of your interview while still giving everyone else the questions in advance

[00:39:19] So that they can be able to look at it think about it process and come up with a meaningful answer

[00:39:25] It doesn't generally have to be days and days and days in advance

[00:39:28] But a good role of thumb is somewhere between 24 hours and five days

[00:39:33] Right, so depending on how long it takes for you just to interview out into schedule out that also by the way

[00:39:38] It can be a good way of keeping candidates engaged which can lower your ghost rate regardless of their neuro status

[00:39:45] So that's one thing another thing is I get it the podcast just isn't enough

[00:39:51] That's all right head over to your favorite social app search up work defined WRK defined and connect with us

[00:39:59] Like specifically to your daughter like if I were if I were trying to understand what kind of process

[00:40:05] I might need to design to make sure that your daughter is able to successfully become

[00:40:09] And that's probably something vocational rehab would do with her are what was called preets in high school

[00:40:15] It's the high school version of okay vocational rehab

[00:40:19] We'd look at things like okay, well, what are the things that are distracting her so is it

[00:40:24] Visual distractions and if so then what might be helpful is for

[00:40:30] The company to be able to have alternate interview environments so that you're not interviewing someone in a glass conference room

[00:40:35] Which may seem really cool because they can see everything going on around you, but it's actually super distracting

[00:40:40] So you know, so alternate interview environments if you're doing

[00:40:45] Zoom interviews or you know whatever

[00:40:49] Video interview platform you use like there is a need to necessary to be able to see someone up front to make sure you're not getting catfish

[00:40:55] Check got it

[00:40:56] But after that allowing them to decide if they want their camera off is great because even like with ADHD

[00:41:03] That can be can be very distracting

[00:41:06] There's

[00:41:07] There's some rejection issues that people have body dysmorphia all sorts of things that can actually improve your interview quality

[00:41:13] If you just a lot people to turn their cameras off and you can make it optional right so people who don't need that won't do it

[00:41:18] And people who do will

[00:41:20] But these are little accommodations that don't take away from the equity of an interview structure

[00:41:25] While still allowing someone to be able to focus mostly stop with the dumb games

[00:41:31] Like the things that are Forbes and business insider worthy because they're funny

[00:41:35] You you got that person by offering them a coke can and they didn't ask you where the recycle bin was

[00:41:41] That makes you a dick. It does not make you cool

[00:41:45] So there are so many reasons

[00:41:48] That that is not neuro friendly and it's not even like

[00:41:52] Even someone who's neurotypical may struggle with what to do with that because you're in you've already interjected someone into an

[00:41:58] An unfamiliar environment. They're not familiar with your structures

[00:42:02] They don't know what's over so we're stepping

[00:42:04] Culturally we teach all kinds of different things depending on where you are in the United States

[00:42:08] So whether or not it's even appropriate to ask what to do with this right

[00:42:12] So where you think that you're being cool and all psychologically savvy by like finding out if they asked you

[00:42:17] What to do with this thing are offering to wash out their coffee cup

[00:42:20] You're not you're freaking somebody out

[00:42:23] They're having all kinds of little battles on their head and it serves no real purpose about what they wanted to be in your office

[00:42:31] And what qualifies that interviewer

[00:42:34] To try to get psychological and so right? That's it. I mean you're playing mind games and at that point

[00:42:40] I mean I

[00:42:43] Might be overstepping here, but I think a lot of this is common sense really

[00:42:47] I mean it is you like it's common sense in in the fact that I'm a good darker

[00:42:52] I think it's just men behaving dark badly

[00:42:55] Is basically what a lot of this comes down to at least historically maybe even currently

[00:43:00] It's just guys being dicks

[00:43:03] Just to because that's how they came up because that's what was

[00:43:07] In front of them was other guys being dicks now. I might be wrong about that

[00:43:12] And again, I think I did have a question like read these forms

[00:43:15] last push. Oh, sorry. Where's the

[00:43:20] Well the intersection between cultural differences and

[00:43:26] Divergent things that we need to be looking at like what could be

[00:43:30] What could be a cultural difference could also be misread as something that's divergent and vice versa

[00:43:37] Oh, I don't know that I'm qualified to answer that question. I think you might have stumped me but um

[00:43:43] But I think

[00:43:45] In only took me 40 minutes. Oh, these over under was like six minutes. So you definitely won that one

[00:43:51] Right

[00:43:53] No, so I know what I'm you don't know thinking about right?

[00:43:56] Okay, I mean like so things like shaking hands and no my content

[00:44:03] Yeah, so so I think unless you're a psychologist and it all even goes towards like I am studying psychology

[00:44:09] I am not qualified to ascertain this from any particular individual right now, right

[00:44:13] But but it's a unless you're a psychologist unless you're trained in behavioral psychology to understand why someone may or may not do things like

[00:44:20] Don't just don't

[00:44:22] Like recognize not everyone's gonna be comfortable shaking your hand and it might be cultural. It might be germs

[00:44:27] It might be you know neurodivergence. You don't really know

[00:44:31] So anytime that there's a question of that I think what a boils down to is like doesn't matter

[00:44:37] Like is it going to impede the way that they function within your organization sometimes that might be us

[00:44:44] But most of the time it's not and so if we just use does this actually matter as our guiding star

[00:44:52] Then I think that'll help a lot of employment. I this morning

[00:44:54] I woke up and as people do I opened up Facebook and and like what we read notifications

[00:44:59] And there was something in the human the human resources for

[00:45:01] Oh, oh, oh, oh

[00:45:03] You do that. I don't do that

[00:45:06] I wake up. I give my wife to be a platform of choice

[00:45:09] To read the way I journal

[00:45:12] That is true

[00:45:14] No, I just roll out of bed and I end up at the gym and then I sit in the car for 30 minutes and wonder from going in

[00:45:20] Talked good. Yeah, I have those days too. I get that um

[00:45:24] So but

[00:45:26] Was looking at notifications on the human resources forum

[00:45:28] There's this this woman that's in human resources and recruiting and she was very proud of herself because

[00:45:33] She had found the red flags on this candidate because that person had listed out that they had a concealed

[00:45:39] Curie license in the license and certification section of the application. She's like huge red flag

[00:45:45] Right, like that that's how everything I need to know about that

[00:45:48] Wait once so I clearly they don't live in Texas right

[00:45:53] Um

[00:45:54] We put our guns on the back of our trucks where they belong

[00:45:58] But

[00:46:01] But but so like as you as you dove into it like in her mind

[00:46:04] She was really doing her employer goodwill a service

[00:46:08] by

[00:46:11] Weeding out this person because they'd answered it and I'm looking at this going like this could have been a neurodiversion candidate who saw

[00:46:18] List your licenses and certification and thought I need to disclose all of this because they asked me

[00:46:24] Right, so we may think that what we're doing is helpful

[00:46:29] But often it's really not so if we go back to does it hurt that they disclose this no probably not

[00:46:35] You know does it help that they disclose this may not really matter but we might want to have a conversation with them leave your guns at home

[00:46:42] Right, so you know whatever but

[00:46:45] But we if we if we use that kind of rationale in our thinking it doesn't add much more time

[00:46:50] But it certainly can create more equitable employment experiences

[00:46:54] drops my

[00:46:55] walks off stage

[00:46:56] Crystal lay

[00:46:58] Thank you. Thank you so much for coming on the show and schooling Ryan I

[00:47:03] On both neurodiversit and neurodiversity, so we appreciate you. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. Love what you're doing