Mastering Workplace Presentations: Engage, Entertain, and Educate with James Micklethwait at Kahoot!

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[00:01:05] Hey this is William Tickup and Ryan Leary and you are listening and watching the You Should Know podcast where we talk with James today about a recent workplace study, a workforce study that he put together his company Kahoot put together.

[00:01:19] And I can't wait to kind of hear a little bit about the findings and what they learned when they put this together. So why don't we jump right in? James, would you do us a favor and introduce yourself and also introduce Kahoot.

[00:01:31] Sure. We'll do William. Thank you very much for having me here on the show. Trustful is really great to be here. So my name's James Mikos-Wait. I'm VP of Kahoot at Work.

[00:01:41] And for those of you listeners who don't know about Kahoot, Kahoot is actually one of the world's largest ed tech companies. It's a game-based learning platform that basically makes it possible for anybody to create and deliver really engaging learning and communication experiences.

[00:02:00] So in the workplace, what that means is that Kahoot is used quite widely as a kind of different take on presentations. So one of the ways you can use Kahoot is to deliver presentations.

[00:02:13] So because of that, we've quite recently commissioned a piece of research where we spoke to over a thousand professionals from the US who told us that they sometimes give presentations at work.

[00:02:24] And we wanted to just understand what are the challenges you face and really get under the skin of what it takes to be a great presenter. How many of them came back with PowerPoint? Let's see. In America, I'm going to say... In the States, I'm going to say...

[00:02:43] Any percent? No, I'm going to say 60% or more. Google Slides was the other one? Is that the... Okay, so let's... Okay, so first of all, let's talk a little bit about Kahoot.

[00:02:57] So Ryan just went to the website and found a bunch of games and thought he was on the wrong website. Fair enough. I would have done the same exact thing. So when you go to kahoot.com, you're going to see games.

[00:03:09] Not that it's a gaming company. It's actually... It's a way to teach. It's a way to learn. And with not just all generations, it's just an easier way for people to learn. Let's go into the study itself. So you commission this thousand people.

[00:03:27] It's a lot of data, which is great. So tell us some of the top findings. What did you learn? Sure, absolutely. And just before I do, to your earlier comment, I think as an observation, one of the things that really surprises me is that

[00:03:41] if you think about the format of a presentation, it's broadly been unchanged since the 1980s. And yet the context in which presentations are delivered has completely and utterly changed. So hybrid working, there's loads of discussion and debate about that.

[00:04:00] It's very, very real. All our data shows that very, very often you're in meetings or giving presentations and either all of your audience or some of your audience aren't physically in there at the same place.

[00:04:11] And so I think our view at Kahoot is it's time for a change. It's just very, very strange. There's been that much change around the format, but the format itself hasn't changed. You're right. It's interesting because in the 80s we used transparencies.

[00:04:26] But the format of a transparency in a slide, Google slide or PowerPoint slide, there's not much difference. It's just whether or not it's plastic and it's using light or whether or not it's a slide, it's same stuff. Same thing.

[00:04:40] Yeah. And the other interesting insight I've heard someone mention is the thing about the PowerPoint format, it's obviously wildly successful. It's the dominant format. It remains that. But actually it's sort of designed for selling, which is a quite an interesting concept.

[00:04:57] That is what it's there to do. You're essentially selling. Right. Whereas our philosophy is more about involving the audience and having more of a discussion with the audience, which is quite a different experience. Right. That's an interesting point. And as you say that I'm thinking,

[00:05:13] even if you're using PowerPoint for a training and you're creating the PowerPoint or Google slides or whatever medium you want, that's essentially a PowerPoint. You're selling that concept to the group of people. You're not engaging them because you're saying, well, how many people in the room do this?

[00:05:34] Right. And how many, that's not really engaging. Well, it's the bloody pulpit. It's one person preaching to the folks in the audience. Exactly. Wow. And there's that great saying that we hold quite dear to our hearts here. And that's, tell me and I forget. Teach me.

[00:05:55] You know, I remember. Involve me and I learn. That's genius. That might be the title of the show. Yeah. You'll have to send me that in an email so I remember. That is absolutely genius. He hasn't involved me yet, so I haven't learned it.

[00:06:12] Do you have anything for remembering? Because that's my issue. I learned, I just don't remember. There's a lot of science around learning and actually again, interactivity as a format is a lot of learning science that shows that it's called the testing effect.

[00:06:29] And essentially, and you don't need a tool or anything to do this. If you read a book and you get to the end of the chapter, literally ask yourself, what are my key? What are the three key takeaways from this chapter?

[00:06:41] That process of both synthesizing but then also forcing your brain to retrieve the information actually makes the neurons fire and it commits it to memory. So if you want to remember actually asking questions of yourself or having other people ask questions of you is a really great

[00:06:57] way to make it stick. That's interesting. That's great. All right, let's run into the findings. What did we learn? Sure. Yeah. So this research, as I mentioned, pretty broad study. And we call it the superstar presenter spotlight report

[00:07:13] because at the end of the day, a lot of people seem to give presentations. And I think a couple of high level insights and we can dive into this a little bit. The first thing we wanted to uncover was what does good look like?

[00:07:29] And we had a hypothesis that actually everyone loves a TED talk. And so we asked everybody, do you think that TED talks are the gold standard of presentations and maybe not that surprisingly, the vast majority like 86% of the respondents agreed with that statement.

[00:07:48] So TED talks is what good looks like. Okay, great. But then the interesting thing is that when we ask the same group, would you feel confident to give a TED talk tomorrow? Only 9%. Exactly, you're both shaking your head. Hell no. I can do it.

[00:08:10] You could do it on the fly. I would have to prepare. But the more I prepare, it's going to hit the shitter. Like I'm not going to be good if I prepare. I need to just get up there and be forced to do it.

[00:08:20] But I can see that though, James, because I thoroughly enjoy it. I can go through TED talks all day. Right? And I'll learn and I'll remember. And I will remember those during the, for some reason they click with me.

[00:08:32] But it also kind of instilled a fear in me that I need to be that good and that smart to be on the TED talk stage, to give a TED talk. Yeah. Yeah. I think I would be in that 9%. Exactly.

[00:08:48] And that's so 9% self-defined is literally rock star level. I'm ready to get on the TED TED stage tomorrow. So that's you, William. Congrats. I'm not one of those either. It would be a, if I did it, I'd need a lot of practice.

[00:09:01] He would get up there and not actually talk. He would just, he would like hold the sign or something like that. Now, here's the thing. I did one of those actually. I did a five minute speech where I didn't speak. So, two cards. That's all right.

[00:09:16] So, but I also think that the two of you, first of all, love the data. Check. I want to take a break real quick just to let you know about a new show. We've just added to the network.

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[00:09:48] Ryan, I know, I know you well enough to, if you were to impromptu give a TED talk about fishing, you could do that. Yeah. It's your passion. James, I don't know if you want to know your passions, but like, okay, say me in art, right?

[00:10:06] I could get up there and talk about art. I mean, I wouldn't need any practice. I could get up and just talk about art. So. It's a great point. Skiing for me. Skiing. Oh, wow. Cool. Yeah.

[00:10:19] So, so like, okay, you know, you could get up and talk about what's the difference between the French Alps and, and, and switch a lot. Like, well, you know, like you could do this bit and just say, like, you could do that because it's within your passion.

[00:10:34] I think it's when people, that's also the TED talks that don't hit is when it's outside of their passion. Like they knew they needed to do something. They studied, they learned, they trained. And then it didn't hit as well because it wasn't in their heart.

[00:10:48] They're getting on stage to get on stage. Right. Yeah. So it's interesting because of what we just talked about in terms of like transparencies and Google, that's still a one to many approach. It's still even the gold standard as we, as we discussed it, it's still the

[00:11:07] bloody pulpit. Yep. And it's just a better pulpit. Yes. And we can dive into that in a second actually. Okay. Because you know, there are different techniques. And I mean, spoiler alert, TED talks are a lot to do with storytelling. Right.

[00:11:24] And there are other techniques in the toolbox. There's no silver bullet, I think, but we can dive into that in a second. But if I just finish off on that, so of course there was a sliding spectrum, you know, the 9% feeling like William ready right now.

[00:11:37] And then there was a spectrum of confidence. But stepping back from it all, basically 50%, one in two of the respondents in some way felt they needed help, right? They just actually needed to be better presenters. And we asked about, you know, presentation training in the workplace,

[00:11:55] 96% said that they would be interested in doing that. And I think that's another very interesting observation is that I don't think I've actually ever had presentation training in the workplace. And that's before we even start talking at younger ages.

[00:12:09] I have a good friend who's a professional public speaker, a public speaking coach, and he's done a TED talk on how, presentations should be taught in the curriculum at school. It's not really, it's not on the formal curriculum.

[00:12:23] And it doesn't seem to be any way through our lives. And yet a few people would argue that communication is one of the most valuable skills. There's two things in there.

[00:12:31] To unpack, the kids in here in the US, they have to do it as like a capstone project or whatever. So they do one presentation a semester or something like that. And sometimes it's even a joint presentation. So it's with many students, but there is no training.

[00:12:48] There's no training on how to and how to do it. It's the outcome. It's like we have to have send slides and you know, blah, blah, blah. But there's no training. My best training or I don't even know if it's formal training was improvisational comedy, improv.

[00:13:08] So I took a couple of classes in improv comedy for fun. Actually just for sport. And I'll tell you what, that's fun. That is actually, I mean, being upstage in front of people and just pulling a topic out of a hat going, all right, pink elephants, let's go.

[00:13:28] Let's talk a little bit about pink elephants. Like that gets you over the jitters real fast, but also it teaches you how to work with other people and work with the audience as well. So, but you're right.

[00:13:40] I think that's probably the hardest, you know, the comedy side on the fly improv is probably the toughest thing to do. But the same friend actually was closely involved with Toastmasters if you're aware of that.

[00:13:52] And one of the things Toastmasters do is table topics, which is just here's the topic, zero preparation, get up there and just speak for a brief amount of time. And that's the skill. I mean, it's a huge skill.

[00:14:07] But once you master that skill, I mean, there's a difference between maybe not math. Okay, once you get good at it, there is a difference between people that can and people that cannot. Right. Especially in the workplace. James, I love this bit on teaching.

[00:14:25] People bring it into the curriculum of teaching kids at a very early age how to communicate. Here's some information. Yeah, be forward to could be the Titanic.

[00:14:36] Whatever the information is, how do I bring that to bear in front of a group of people get them to learn and remember to Ryan's point? How do I get them to engage in that content? Absolutely. It's a huge miss here. I can tell you, I'm in Texas.

[00:14:51] Ryan's in Pennsylvania. Huge miss in both of our states. So probably a huge miss elsewhere. And the final bit of insight actually that sort of follows on from this because obviously you get benefits.

[00:15:04] If you had this training and we're a better presenter, you get benefits as an individual. But we're in my area of particular, we're very interested also in workplace culture.

[00:15:14] And what we found is that actually there's a feeling amongst presenters that there would be wider benefits if everyone gave better presentations.

[00:15:25] It's maybe not that surprising, but around about half of respondents said that they would it would be an incentive for them to both deepen their own knowledge and share more knowledge. If presentations just generally were a better and more effective medium, which I think is very interesting.

[00:15:40] Tracks for me because yeah, a bad presentation wash for Tom. Yes, and everyone's busy. There's so many hours in a day. There's everything you have to do. All of a sudden Jenny gets up. She does a presentation. You're like, I already know this.

[00:15:54] I'm like, you're wasting my time and it's put in a format like, okay, I'm now going to take a nap and it's wasting my time. So I can see that James. That tracks for me. Yeah, James, that could be way off here.

[00:16:10] But as you're talking and you're saying bad presentation disengagement and William, your example, I'm thinking so back in my IBM days we did a lot of design thinking. And you go into some sessions and you were just like, this is going to be badass.

[00:16:24] Like we're going to do it. In fact, my Google photos just brought up a memory from I think it was like 12 years ago or something. And it designed everything like it was sticky notes everywhere. I remember that specific day. I remember that day. We were in Argentina.

[00:16:40] We did the thing. It was super fun. Anyhow, there were some really bad ones. Now the good ones, I'm on top of my game. I'm giving ideas. I'm brainstorming. Creativity is flowing. But the bad ones, yeah, the bad ones, I've got no interest.

[00:16:57] And there is a clear difference between Engage Ryan and not just engage. There's some episodes that we've recorded James where Williams like, dude, you're going to ask a question. Like it's a boring topic. Like, I don't know. That's so bad.

[00:17:12] I probably would not mention any names on those shows. No, no, no. It's true. It's true. To your point, if you're at work and you're taking out time of your day to displace some of the other things, it's got to be worth it. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:17:28] And that's one of the things we see is there's a in all walks of life, there is a war literally for attention. And we need to take that very seriously people's attention.

[00:17:37] So many things competing for it, whether it's outside on the street, you know, whether it's when you're using the internet, using your phone. Or as you said, when someone's giving a presentation at work, it's still there's a battle for attention and you have to win your right.

[00:17:53] I think to be listened to. So we've hacked that one time. One time we've hacked that by no laptops and no phones. So again, that's kind of a forced strategy because it's again, you're trying to get their attention.

[00:18:09] You're trying to win their attention, which I think is a great phrase by the way. And then you need toothpicks to hold their eyes open. Yeah. So, so yeah, you're right. You can take away their devices.

[00:18:20] But if you're still not winning their attention, they're just they're going to be they're going to be daydreaming and doing something else. Yeah. Yeah. Are you saying James, you may get to this. I know we're taking you 97 directions.

[00:18:32] He's just like, I want to talk about this report guys. And we will, I promise, but you may get to this later. Is there a difference between presentations, learning and all of this inside the workplace based on generation? Yeah. Interesting. Yes.

[00:18:49] I think the answer is very, very simple and probably not that surprising. So this attention challenge is more acute. The younger the audience is. So it's absolutely something we see consistently in the data.

[00:19:04] And also, I think the appetite to mix up the format that change that I talked about that we're not really seeing is most welcomed. So, you know, a Kahoot were quite about gamification game based learning as I mentioned before.

[00:19:20] But that that we buy that I mean, instead of just talking, you can drop in questions that are competitive and there's a leaderboard in between. You know, some of your presentation slides, you can have a leaderboard and some questions.

[00:19:33] For example, and Gen Z really, really respond to that very well. And the numbers are much higher for approval of Gen Z. Although they work, but it does work very well across all age groups.

[00:19:43] But yes, the younger demographic want to do things differently and the attention spans are that much shorter. Well, I used to think attention spans being shorter was a bad thing. And I've I've I've moved my my thoughts around this because the Gen Gen Z.

[00:20:03] It's I think it was eight, eight seconds and in four seconds. So it's something like that. I care they lost seconds in their attention span between the between the generations. And I used to really think that that was a bad thing.

[00:20:15] But what I've learned about that are why I believe my current hypothesis is is they get there quicker. Because they've consumed the Internet since, you know, the day they arrived. They just get their fat.

[00:20:31] They have a consumption rate that's higher than the previous generation of millennials and Gen X. And so it's not necessarily a bag. It can be, but it's not necessarily a bad thing. You just got to get the you've got a for presenting.

[00:20:48] You've got to get to the point quicker. Yes. And so it actually forces you to do something different on your side. And it's all the things you're talking about, but it's like the pace. It's got to be faster because they're already that's where you can lose an audience.

[00:21:04] Especially a Gen Z audience is you just don't get there fast enough. Yeah. Telling a story and you're connecting dots and people, you know, of boomers and Gen X would love that. Yeah. But whereas Gen Z, you lose them because it's like, OK, OK, OK.

[00:21:21] I mean, these are kids that, you know, they're looking memes on their phone. They just scroll through memes. Yeah. On Discord. They don't want to look at us either. Yeah. They're probably like, this guy's a boomer and he moved and they move on. It's not.

[00:21:35] I mean, the way it was positioned early on about the attention span was it was all bad. This is all bad. And I don't think it's all bad. I don't think it's all bad. I think, yes, it is different and it's shorter for sure.

[00:21:50] But that just means that you I think it puts more of an onus on the presenter to actually be with them and move faster. Yes. Yes. Pace. Oh my goodness. Bad touching, harassment, sex, violence, fraud, threats, all things that could have been avoided if you had Fama.

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[00:23:00] Should we let James move on to the next point? Sure. Sure. We're taking up everywhere but the report. He's doing fine. He's doing fine. He's doing good. We're stopping him. People are going to download the report. We're good. Yeah, we're good. This is a great topic.

[00:23:18] But I'm happy to do that. Those are the key points of the problem space if you like and then I think the rest of the discussion is perhaps more interesting is what's the solution to all of this? How do people become better presenters and what are the tricks?

[00:23:34] I think, yeah, I mean, actually I'm going to go back slightly just recap on it. Sure. When we dived in and said okay, what are your pain points as presenters? We're still slightly in the problem space then we'll get to the solutions.

[00:23:49] The number one thing was keeping audiences engaged throughout the presentation. More than 50% of presenters said that's the number one problem. That's interesting. The second one was about nerves. Everybody gets, or most people except the Williams of the World get quite a nervous one on stage.

[00:24:06] So that was the second thing. And the third one, which was a little bit lower but still a significant point, was that initial moment when you stand up, breaking the ice, developing a connection with the audience. So those are the top three sort of specific problems to solve.

[00:24:25] And then I think we can dive into solutions for each of those. So on the engagement one, I think then we can pick up on what we were talking earlier about the tools and the toolbox. And so we asked about various tools.

[00:24:39] We asked the respondents, what do you wish you think are the most important attributes of a great presenter? And that storytelling perhaps unsurprisingly came out top. I mean, one of the overall actually conclusions was there wasn't one standout, if you do this one thing, that's the answer.

[00:24:57] Actually, it was a relatively even distribution. And I'll go through some of them now. But storytelling was marginally the most popular choice of the ones that we offered about six. And I think that comes back to Ted. I think Ted is the format there.

[00:25:13] Well, first of all, it's a format if you notice it. It's never too long. There's been a huge amount of thought that's gone into that format. But it's all about telling stories, making it relatable. And that's a real craft and a real skill because we as human beings

[00:25:31] just love stories. That's what's kept people occupied around the campfire for thousands of years, hundreds of thousands of years since humans have been around. So storytelling is definitely one way. The next technique on the list in terms of popularity was actually

[00:25:48] involving the audience, which is what we talked about earlier. And that's where I think interactivity and it can be, you know, through just questions that you ask the audience raise of hands. And it can be through tools like Kahoot,

[00:26:01] where you can ask people what they think or you can go back over what you've said and actually try and reinforce the points that you've made. So involving the audience, I think, is an interactivity is key as well.

[00:26:14] The other things that are important, then we start with sort of actually going down the list. Humour was quite an important factor, quite a bit below those first two. Actually, those were the top two standard one storytelling and interactivity. But then humour, brevity, keeping it short.

[00:26:31] And then authority interestingly was the lowest of all of the ones I've mentioned. And I think there's a real learning for anyone wanting to be a good presenter is that one of the big traps of presenting is that you focus too much on yourself as a presenter.

[00:26:48] You're all knowing. On your nerves and I want to show that I know everything. Whereas in fact, you're already one on that. Most people in the audience don't know as much as you. Yeah, I've always gone off the notion of look, I'm on stage.

[00:27:05] You're not. Not that I'm better, but they expect something of you. You go to a comedy show and expect them to be nervous. You expect them to come out, rip their shirt off and they're like, what's up everybody? Like you want them to be funny.

[00:27:18] Like you're drinking, you're there for a good time. When I go to a presentation and there's a keynote, I fully expect that person to just be either hilarious, a superstar, be really stupid on stage, whatever it is, I expect it.

[00:27:32] I don't care what it is, but I get disappointed when they are very monotone, very straight, you know, physicist style. You know, they're talking like an economist or something. But that's what's kind of gotten me through.

[00:27:47] Anytime I had to get on stage or virtual or on stage doesn't matter. Well, you can flip. You can flip authoritative with curiosity very easily. And you're really good at that. You do that a lot where you basically say, I'm not the authority.

[00:28:02] I'll tell you what I'm really curious about this. Here's what I've learned so far. I mean, you're sharing but a Ryan to your point about key notes. The key notes, it's a very simple formula in the sense of inspiration, education and entertainment. That's it.

[00:28:19] A great keynote has those three elements. That's great. And so they're able to pull at different points from those buckets. And so they carry the audience through. And again, it is entertainment that share of attention that James talked about.

[00:28:35] You are an entertainer whether or not you like it or not. You are an entertainer. So you have to think about your own stage. James, one of the things I do in a lot of my presentations is it's off putting quite frankly. But I asked the audience questions.

[00:28:55] So at first before I even started into a presentation, I'm like, Hey, y'all showed up. You have some questions like what do you have? What do you got? You got something in your pocket. You're here. Everybody out because I'm good with improv. So I'm comfortable.

[00:29:08] I should say I'm good. I'm comfortable being asked random questions. And what I'm trying to show the audience is like, it's okay to ask questions. A, B, I'll give you the best answer. I can't, it will just kind of work through it together.

[00:29:22] And it loosens up the audience because they're used to the bloody pulpit. They're used to the person being authoritative and then just information coming out of it. And when you can tease a question out of them at the very beginning,

[00:29:36] it helps set the stage for the rest of the discussion or the rest of presentation because it's like, come on, just ask a question. What do you got? What do you got? People will ask questions. I'm not fanboying. I know I have.

[00:29:49] I've had that turn against me by the way. Well, I'm not fanboying over over William here, but I will say the last presentation talent that yeah, yeah, tech stacks James.

[00:30:01] Everyone in there is a technologist at this event and they're all building their tech stacks right on further town acquisition and all this stuff. And he just goes in and says,

[00:30:15] how did you say it something around like don't use the word tech stack but he said it in his words. Yes, which you sound old. Yeah, but it was, but you're really good at that, right? So you're good and it always works for you.

[00:30:28] I've seen it work for other people. I've also seen it bomb for other people where they try to be contrarian to everyone else in the audience. There's 300 people in the audience. You're like, yeah, everything you're doing is wrong. Right.

[00:30:40] And this is why mine was so so James it's curiosity. I think thanks man, but I think it's curiosity that that gets the audience or it's a it's these are all levers. To be pulled and curiosity is one where they they can relate to you.

[00:30:59] Yes, so you're not that, you know, you're not the person that's coming down from the mountain like Moses and giving them the answers to just tell them about where you're at and why it's important to you and why you might think it's important to them. Yes, exactly.

[00:31:12] And I think technology has an interesting role to play here because what it does allow you to do is have a conversation with people. Have a conversation actually with hundreds of people simultaneously.

[00:31:26] You know, just a word cloud for example as an experience is a great way in a word.

[00:31:31] What do you think of this topic and then just straight up on the screen visualized you've got the collective consciousness and view of the audience and then you've got a connection straight away and as opposed to, you know, it's not all about tech all of the time but traditionally the best you could do is pick someone in the audience and that one person there engage

[00:31:50] but you get everybody participating and involved in it. It's a different level of connection I think. So James, I don't know where we're going next because it's your report. Yeah, right. Check that off.

[00:32:04] But I have to ask what you so an organization says, you know what we need better presenters. Yeah, in our workforce they all go through training they all become really good presenters say.

[00:32:18] Now what happens if everybody's a great storyteller in that building where I mean is that good. If the whole buildings full of storytellers at that point. I think so and like I said remember storytelling one tool in the two books and brevity.

[00:32:34] Yeah, brevity and involving the audience but no to answer your question being a better presenter communicator communicator. Yeah, so it creates more efficiency brevity and organization production. Exactly engagement or you know what happens if a sales person is a better presenter communicator they sell more right.

[00:32:56] I mean it's literally what happens if somebody's in a call center better customer service. It's these are very hard business metrics and business outcomes that come from this not adjust to kind of soft skills for the sake of it.

[00:33:10] So this is for your business if you're a founder for example and your pitching for investment it's this kind of skill that actually closes the deal.

[00:33:21] The charm with this then essentially be more effective maybe I don't know if the survey shows us but would this be more effective for a customer service rep for example or sales rep for example to become a better communicator go through this type of training rather than customer service training.

[00:33:39] I think anybody excuse me go ahead answer. He's like I'm going to answer for you.

[00:33:47] This survey doesn't specifically answer that question but my experience at Kahoot which is you know an innovative approach to learning what we do know is that when you use our solutions to train sales reps or customer care reps which is why I mentioned this and so they have better product knowledge they understand the product then they sell better.

[00:34:07] So it's a it's slightly different but I would have strong hypothesis that what I said is true because more confidence they speak better they're able to hold conversations control conversations. I don't think that communications. I don't think there's a downside to being a better communicator for anyone.

[00:34:27] I mean think of more marriages. If how many marriages have failed through the years because of just poor communication right so like I'm looking at that organizationally and saying the. EA the secretary the person that's in finance procurement whatever everyone could be a better communicator.

[00:34:50] I don't think there's a downsides to being a better communicator. Yeah I can't I can't see what it was. Yeah. Okay all right James what up where we going next.

[00:35:02] Yeah so I guess we've got this engagement problem we talked about how do you solve the engagement problem storytelling is important and interactivity is important and I think.

[00:35:12] Coming in into that is actually there's a theme that I've realized is important through this research and actually working with some experts and that's actually the importance of mixing it up.

[00:35:23] So we're working with a wonderful gentleman called Matt Abraham's he's a Stanford lecturer of strategic communication and so he knows 10 times more than I know about this subject. And we've been specifically working with him in our product to try and understand what makes a great interactive presentation.

[00:35:48] And so one of the things he's told us for example is that he believes that the attention span basically you need to mix it up. Right after about six to eight minutes.

[00:35:57] That's the time when everybody's just human and you know different demographics different settings are remote versus in person it does vary it can be maybe shorter than this. But on average that is a rule of thumb.

[00:36:08] And I think that's fascinating because that says to state the very obvious very few presentations I ever hear are only six to eight minutes. Right there so the average presentation is longer than the average you know optimal time.

[00:36:21] And so the only solution to that is that you actually need to mix it up. So he's a big fan of this. You know yeah great tell a story then okay let's pause let's see what do you think let's get input from the audience let's involve the audience.

[00:36:33] Is it too fast. You know you use some humor so you mix up your toolbox in stages to create a more varied experience and that's how you solve the engagement problem is there too fast as he says every short of a time.

[00:36:46] Can you can you do every two minutes or every three minutes like is there a floor to what you can do with mixing enough. He hasn't said anything about that I guess there comes a point where it becomes a bit just overwhelming. Yeah yeah yeah yeah.

[00:37:01] And certainly he has he's also guided us for example for most people this isn't a danger but because we're coming from the interactivity space you can now combine your slides with interactivity.

[00:37:15] There is such thing as too much interactivity too many slides is not good but also too much interactivity is not helpful either so it's genuinely about finding a balance between the two. Correct me if I'm wrong you're doing a webinar with him in July around this topic.

[00:37:31] Exactly right yeah so Matt's going to be it's completely free webinar July 10 and there'll be a link I think you're going to add to this podcast. Yeah we can add a link.

[00:37:42] Thank you Matt's a guest speaker and he's going to be giving some great tips on how to level up your presentation game. I think Ryan we should show.

[00:37:51] Probably should yeah we can how about James how about we introduce him and we make it about nine minute introduction and just start off on a wrong foot. That would be pretty hilarious.

[00:38:03] So William as you were saying too short I was thinking the same thing because what I was James what I was kind of comparing it to my mind was TV regular TV with commercials. The commercials aren't five minutes long right there they're 30 seconds summer 15 summer 10.

[00:38:20] Yeah but it's always about three minutes or so maybe a long out between the commercial and the next segment of the show because obviously there's enough that you know there's research I'm sure behind that if it's four minutes.

[00:38:34] Yeah I'm gone somewhere else three minutes I could wait 90 seconds not enough time to go to the bathroom right there's there's research there and I think it's kind of the same with presentation.

[00:38:44] It's interesting trainings yeah it's like hey go this long don't go this short it's too much and I'm thinking we we've had presenters over the years that will just talk about.

[00:38:55] I don't know call it like 40 things to do in this and it's like two minutes a thing and I'm like yeah I didn't retain any of that but if you would have done five things and spent six minutes for the next 30 minutes.

[00:39:08] That's enough time for me to process it think about it ask myself some questions and maybe ask you a question. This is so helpful. Yeah so many people. Yeah I could see where you know just reading the report and understanding the research can help actually help people.

[00:39:23] Yeah I never say that about research too much. Well it's rare it's rare. Most of it is again 39% of the people say so and so but this is this is again a skill that we weren't taught in grade school or high school or college or whatever university.

[00:39:40] I took a public speaking class in college and I will send you a photo. I've got a VHS it says public speaking final whatever caps on it and it's on a VHS tape and I can't play it because I don't have a VHS player.

[00:39:54] But they teach you but they talk to you. Well it was a class on public speaking yeah but they didn't really teach it was more like James it was basic as basic could be right.

[00:40:04] And this is third year in college so it was that I was communications and so we've gone up the wrong here and this was how to break the ice and you know how to do a joke and how to raise your voice and lower your voice and change your your pace and like.

[00:40:19] I didn't do any of this on the tape and I know it's on the tape and I want to get it so I can play for the kids. Plus I had hair so they'd be totally freaked out. 100% amazing.

[00:40:32] Working with these experts on this topic and the range of techniques that they have like you said that literally a math talks about using words like involving words as we you involve the audience and you use words like we instead of I it's little small things like that.

[00:40:53] Tone of voices you say these all make a big a big difference and so it's so worth I think investing some time in listening to watching people who are real experts on this because it often doesn't take very much.

[00:41:09] It's just you've just got to take the time that a few very practical simple tips try them out and it's pretty easy to get started. James is engagement.

[00:41:20] I think the second big insight I wanted to share really and this is the these are the big two one around engagement so mixing it up interactivity storytelling covered that one.

[00:41:29] The second one relates to nerves right if you remember that was the second big pain point a lot of people are nervous presenters and again there are a lot of different a broad range of techniques with doing this Matt for example talks about deep breaths is super important just to to.

[00:41:45] Actually harness the nerves nerves are not really a bad thing it's adrenaline performance but the way you breathe can make a big difference to the way you deal with nerves.

[00:41:54] But what our research showed and that I found very very interesting was a very striking correlation between the presenters who are super confident the ones that are ready for this the Ted stage and the amount of feedback that they get on giving a presentation.

[00:42:10] So what we found was that you know the majority the vast like 80% of them I think it was 80% 83% of those rockstar presenters either always get feedback after giving a presentation or often.

[00:42:24] And that's so much higher than all of the less confident presenters and that's not it shouldn't be a huge surprise I guess we in work generally will always talk about giving more back when you say get feedback are they soliciting feedback but I soliciting feedback.

[00:42:39] We didn't ask them about that we just said how often do you receive it. It is receive it okay yeah so sorry yeah I receive feedback so you receive feedback when you've asked for it or whether whether someone just gives it to you.

[00:42:52] They're going to finish with our just gonna say that what is exciting I think for us about that is and the way the interactive technology can help with that because if you have an experience where you present for a bit.

[00:43:06] And then you either ask people you know as a competitive question for points you can gamify it you know what's the key takeaway of what I was just talking about in the last five minutes not only do you get real time feedback.

[00:43:21] On your communication style but also you are landing the key takeaways and for those people who get the answer wrong they then become very clear on what it is you want them to know.

[00:43:30] So actually with an interactive presentation which is this new format we are very excited about now and building out in Kahoot.

[00:43:39] You do have this ability to get real time feedback which is both very powerful and actually I do it all the time quite humbling because you'd be very surprised you talk you think you're speaking very clearly and then you ask the audience what was my key point and then only a third of them get the right answer.

[00:43:55] It's great it's very. It's very humbling. It's humbleness and virtual reality when we're presenting in virtual reality and they've got like the audience can give you applause or question marks and all kinds of stuff as you're speaking. Yes.

[00:44:10] All of a sudden you see these hearts going up and claps going up and you're like okay but I think James one of the things I've observed about feedback is the less the less confident and let's just say that the people that just didn't do a great job during their presentation.

[00:44:27] One of the reasons I believe this is a hypothesis the belief that the reason they don't get feedback is people have given up on them.

[00:44:36] So they they're like you don't know you haven't mastered your craft there's no need for me to go tell you about you haven't mastered your craft.

[00:44:43] You know you know where it's so whereas the people that do a great job they come up to him after a show or after an event or after the presentation and they have more questions because they're engaged.

[00:44:54] Or it's validating for them to then to recognize that someone's done something well they actually know the craft and to then be with them and talk with them and learn something more so it's.

[00:45:08] I think first of all I think anything you can do to do that in real time is genius because it is delayed gratification but it's delayed feedback. It's after the it's after the bid how long are that however long that is.

[00:45:24] It's now someone will either come and talk to you or not. Yes but what I've observed with others is they don't go and talk to the people that I say failed or bombed it's really that it was subpar.

[00:45:37] And I think it's just maybe this is an American thing. They just give up they do they give it up on a person. Yeah so I want to waste the time. I think that's fair if you're ever wondering how a presentation went.

[00:45:50] That's not a good sign it is probably the truth because that means that no one's come up as you said and the reason why they haven't come up exactly as you. I think I think that's right. Right well let's do one last question right.

[00:46:03] Do you have a last question go for it. Okay so what's the best way to start down this process to teach people communication skills. If people listening to the show or watching the show are thinking OK my organization. Yeah we're horrible at this. Where do they start.

[00:46:23] That's a great question. I think we're lucky to live in the world that we live in because there are so many now just freely available really brilliant world authorities on this. So I think it's about finding great individuals and communities to be part of.

[00:46:42] So I mentioned Matt we also work with another thought leader called David J Phillips in Europe as well. And we're also planning to build a community which is very specifically with involvement from these and others I'm sure will join the thought leaders providing relevant and helpful content.

[00:47:01] So I think it's the first step of course is you've got to decide that this is a skill that matters to you. It's all about the why.

[00:47:08] This matters to me and I believe it's going to get clear on why you think it's going to make a difference to your point Ryan earlier.

[00:47:14] If you're clear on that then that provides the motivation then go out and find thought leaders podcasts to listen to plenty of resources and webinars both free and paid when you find somebody who you resonate with and everyone has their different style on this.

[00:47:30] And it's not like there's a right or wrong answer just listen to a few find someone whose style is and then just go deeper with that individual. And then finally it's about a lot of the things we talked about here practice at like any skill.

[00:47:45] It is about practice but it's about practicing in a smart way as well getting feedback reflecting on that feedback iterating and improving. I think those it's fairly obvious set of things to say but those are the right things to do.

[00:47:58] You know I do have James one last question and I lied sorry William. For practicing to become a better presenter right if I'm taking all of your your recommendations. Yeah is practicing presenting virtually the same as presenting in person.

[00:48:21] And I know I'll ask I mean I give my thoughts here there's a different confidence I think personally on camera as opposed to just having a headset on and not having a camera versus being in person on stage somewhere.

[00:48:39] So I'm curious as you're bringing people through these trainings is there a different way to practice for virtual versus in person. That's very interesting.

[00:48:51] That is a great question and there is I think it's there are some I think you have to adapt your style is the answer and the short version is it's tend to this engagement problem we talked about.

[00:49:08] Is ten times more acute with a virtual audience right in a second research that I won't dive into now.

[00:49:15] I mean we ask people what they were doing when the videos are off and it's very striking like literally not even on another meeting you know searching for another job.

[00:49:25] Everything is happening so the engagement problem is much much harder and what that means is that everything we've said you need to dial up so the whole you need to mix it up more and more.

[00:49:36] You need to involve people more and more you should talk for even shorter amounts of time so the whole six to eight is probably great for in person. Maybe it's it's less virtually two three or something. Exactly. A combination of audience specific and medium specific right.

[00:49:56] Yes so medium so the medium of a virtual in person whatever and then who's on the other side of this.

[00:50:03] Yeah these like senior executives that already kind of know like you can start off at a higher higher click or these beginners and college they don't know as much so you have to kind of really pace yourself and get bring up the plate.

[00:50:18] So I think it seems to me right I think I would probably look at OK what's the audience and then what's the medium and I love the way James tackle the medium because it's like OK hey you're doing this over zoom. Right.

[00:50:31] So you can still get there but you can't get there in the same way that you did on stage. Yeah.

[00:50:38] And I think for any presentation if you start by thinking who's the audience and try and empathize why are they here and what are they what are they interested in.

[00:50:50] That is a fantastic place to start and then good things will follow if you just start with that and you can actively ask them that question and make that connection.

[00:50:57] That's one way of doing it or even just thinking about it and that's a fantastic place to start for sure. I could talk to James all day. Yeah.

[00:51:07] If I could say one more thing is just that I would just very much encourage people to try out an interactive presentation.

[00:51:15] It is a new form we're trying to shake things up here try out an interactive presentation doesn't have to be with with Kahoot there are others that do it as well but just try it out because

[00:51:25] if we go right back to the beginning this the storytelling the humor those are things that a lot of people struggle with and some will always struggle with it.

[00:51:34] If you have an interactive presentation format we believe it makes you know it opens up the possibility to deliver a really impactful presentation to a much much broader section of the population than a TED talk for example which is just not going to be for everyone so

[00:51:51] this is an invitation for anyone if you want to up your skills game try and interact with presentation.

[00:51:57] I started off with a joke with my dad's eulogy and it was fantastic like people it cut that thick air in the typical eulogy where people are really somber and all that stuff.

[00:52:09] I just started off with a joke and then started to tell stories about my dad and I and people laugh and cry the whole bit but just the idea of just like hey let's levitate right.

[00:52:23] The idea of like we're here it's serious I get it however let's have fun with this and let's you know we don't the man's past that's already done right we can't change that so. People appreciate it's really weird to get people thanking you after eulogy.

[00:52:44] Yes that was that was a trip. Not a customer not a customer that put a feather in your tappel that way. In fact I had other people in my family say can you come to my eulogy. Well no if I want to be good at this.

[00:53:01] James thank you so much. This has been absolutely wonderful the topics been wonderful you've been wonderful the research everything and everyone remember the webinar in July we'll get dates and links and all that stuff but thank you for your time. Thank you so much for having me.