Making the Most of Anxiety: Coaching for Growth and Performance

[00:00:00] Oh my goodness, bad touching, harassment, sex, violence, fraud, threats, all things that could have been avoided.

[00:00:13] If you had pharma, stop hiring dangerous people.

[00:00:19] pharma.io

[00:00:30] kräftig mild

[00:00:31] kräftig wie der Küstenwind und zugleich mild wie das Sonnenlicht

[00:00:35] Flensburger Strandlager, ungefiltert wie der echte Norden

[00:00:40] Plopptig ans Meer

[00:01:13] We were already doing the podcast. Unbeknownst to everyone else, we just didn't record.

[00:01:17] All the good stuff is already done.

[00:01:21] It was all left on the cutting room floor.

[00:01:25] Marissa, would you do us a favor and introduce yourself at what you do?

[00:01:29] Absolutely. Well thank you both, William and Ryan for inviting me.

[00:01:33] It's a pleasure to be here and treat to be able to speak with your audience.

[00:01:37] So thank you for listening.

[00:01:40] My name is Marissa Valente. I am an executive coach and a strategist with the Center for Modern Workforce Strategy.

[00:01:48] I've been working in this space of executive coaching with a particular focus and priority on sort of progressive employment and workplace strategies,

[00:01:59] which are meant to sort of help evolve the workplace strategies that were put in place that are a little bit more

[00:02:08] finely attuned to industrial revolution era work versus knowledge work or work that is informed or led by technology.

[00:02:18] And I cut my teeth in this space working in finance.

[00:02:23] So I worked at Morgan Stanley at the very beginning of my career and then moved into the hedge fund and private equity space

[00:02:30] in a number of senior human resources roles.

[00:02:34] A lot of people when they ask me, what do I do?

[00:02:37] I say if you've ever seen the show Billions on Showtime, I'm the character Wendy.

[00:02:44] That's the best way to sort of locate me in this space.

[00:02:47] I feel really privileged to have met with and support an absolutely remarkable cohort of professionals who are doing big things in the world.

[00:02:59] And we're all in the fight together to figure out how to do it well and not make it hurt.

[00:03:04] I was going to ask, what to define executive coach as we kick off?

[00:03:10] I think I have a vision of what I mean it feels like it's common sense for me, but some people may not have a real understanding of what an executive coach is.

[00:03:22] That's a very good question.

[00:03:24] It's very amorphous because coaching as a profession is actually unregulated.

[00:03:30] There is a regulatory-ish body called the International Coaching Federation or ICF, of which I'm a member.

[00:03:38] But it's not therapy. That's the most important thing, right?

[00:03:42] But coaching and therapy have a lot of obstacles.

[00:03:45] My definition is long gone then.

[00:03:48] You killed me.

[00:03:50] What was your definition Ryan? I'm curious.

[00:03:52] Therapy.

[00:03:53] Therapy?

[00:03:54] No, no, no.

[00:03:56] Productivity.

[00:03:57] Productivity with therapy like...

[00:04:00] Because I have mentors and they're not coaches, but someone who acts that way.

[00:04:05] But I almost look at it as therapeutic even though the coaching isn't.

[00:04:10] I understand that part.

[00:04:12] But the outcome I feel sometimes is therapeutic.

[00:04:17] And it's just, okay, I feel better now. I'm good.

[00:04:20] And I can move on with my day.

[00:04:22] We want you to feel that way.

[00:04:23] That's hopefully in scope totally.

[00:04:25] I kind of feel like I'm way off though.

[00:04:28] You're not.

[00:04:29] They're not prescribing medications.

[00:04:31] So just make sure we cover that part.

[00:04:34] Not prescribing medications.

[00:04:36] So here's the key difference, Ryan.

[00:04:38] What you said is I want to feel better and I want to have a therapeutic experience with my coach.

[00:04:42] That's my goalpost.

[00:04:45] Hopefully, yes.

[00:04:46] If you're leaving feeling worse, we haven't done our job very well.

[00:04:50] The difference between coaching as I think ICF would define it is...

[00:04:55] Coaching is oriented toward the future.

[00:04:57] Let's help you look out into the horizon and help you have a little bit more of a clear direction on where you're trying to go

[00:05:04] and how you need to sort of be moving your rudder if you're in a boat

[00:05:09] to sort of put you in the direction that you intend.

[00:05:13] The difference between that and therapy is therapy often has a backward looking component to it.

[00:05:17] We want to sort of sit down as therapists and look at your childhood

[00:05:20] and dissect your relationships with your parents or those kinds of things.

[00:05:25] That is out of scope for coaching.

[00:05:27] That's the kind of key difference.

[00:05:29] But it's not incorrect to say I should feel better or supported after I had a conversation with a coach

[00:05:36] as well as with a therapist.

[00:05:38] A lot of people tell me that it feels therapeutic.

[00:05:41] That's a compliment.

[00:05:41] Is there any benefit to, for a person that you're working with,

[00:05:46] for them to have their therapist and coach communicate with one another?

[00:05:53] Very interesting question.

[00:05:55] Potentially I've never had that request.

[00:05:58] Nobody has ever asked me please speak with my therapist.

[00:06:01] I just wondered if you had HIPAA.

[00:06:03] Okay, we get past that stuff.

[00:06:06] You wouldn't be allowed to.

[00:06:08] The therapist probably wouldn't be able to share with me anything that the client had shared with them.

[00:06:16] But I will say many of my clients are in therapy as well as working with me as an executive.

[00:06:22] It's trying to get better.

[00:06:24] Again, this is not self-help.

[00:06:29] They're trying to get better people that they're wired to always be improving.

[00:06:35] Always trying to figure out the next thing that they want to improve on themselves.

[00:06:39] From a personal side it could be therapy.

[00:06:42] From a professional side it could be coaching.

[00:06:45] Basic, real basic question.

[00:06:47] Can you coach someone that doesn't want to be coached?

[00:06:50] No, impossible.

[00:06:52] Right.

[00:06:53] So they've got to want it.

[00:06:55] Yep.

[00:06:56] So how do you know, because you've been doing this for a while, both with your roles in HR and now,

[00:07:04] how do you know someone wants to be coached?

[00:07:06] Like they're really willing to put into work or whatever the bit is.

[00:07:11] Because I can see someone saying they want to be coached.

[00:07:14] Before we move on, I need to let you know about my friend Mark Pfeffer and his show, PeopleTech.

[00:07:20] If you're looking for the latest on product development, marketing, funding, big deals happening in talent acquisition, HR, HCM,

[00:07:30] that's the show you need to listen to.

[00:07:33] Go to the work-define network, search up PeopleTech.

[00:07:36] Mark Pfeffer, you can find them anywhere.

[00:07:42] I'm really talking about myself now.

[00:07:44] So again, I can see someone.

[00:07:48] You know what? I'm going to sit back.

[00:07:48] I'm going to sit back.

[00:07:49] I want to watch you.

[00:07:51] I can see someone say that they want to coach.

[00:07:54] I have zero interest.

[00:07:55] I have zero interest.

[00:07:56] That's it.

[00:07:57] We're changing the layout.

[00:07:59] You are going to coach William and I'm going to sit back.

[00:08:01] Zero interest in being coached.

[00:08:03] But you know what I'm talking about.

[00:08:04] You've interacted with these folks, right?

[00:08:06] So if you can't coach someone that doesn't want to be coached, how do you get them onto their next thing?

[00:08:13] Because they're not going to get anything out of it, right?

[00:08:16] So how do you kind of, well again, graduate them or move them on to whatever they're going to do next?

[00:08:25] Right.

[00:08:26] So that's a really powerful question, William.

[00:08:28] And what I would say that's very interesting and unique about coaching

[00:08:32] and a difference between my having worked in-house for a firm where I was an HR person

[00:08:38] and people would be sent to speak to me in serious scenarios

[00:08:42] versus my work as an independent executive coach is people come to find me.

[00:08:48] Nobody gets sent to me like they're going to the principal's office.

[00:08:52] Right, right.

[00:08:52] People, I get my clients referred to me through recommendations or I have worked for a firm that has an internal coaching platform

[00:09:02] that is available as a resource to the employees.

[00:09:05] And so if they're dealing with something complex and they want to be supported,

[00:09:09] they go into this platform and do a search and find a coach who they think is well positioned to help them.

[00:09:15] But there's always a component of opt-in.

[00:09:19] There's no forcing mechanism with coaching.

[00:09:23] And typically, oh I'm sorry.

[00:09:25] No, no, go finish your thought.

[00:09:27] I was just going to say typically in large firms,

[00:09:31] coaching is usually a gift to people who are considered high potential

[00:09:36] and it's meant as a propeller to sort of send them to the next level

[00:09:41] because coaching just realistically can be very expensive.

[00:09:46] And so most often organizations don't want to invest in employees who are on the fringe

[00:09:51] or show signs like William said of having to be sent to the principal's office

[00:09:56] rather than given a little bit of extra tutoring

[00:09:59] because they're potentially going to solve the big equation, right?

[00:10:04] Right.

[00:10:04] So now that Marissa stole my question and answered it already,

[00:10:08] that was my question was are you finding that people are resistant when being referred by their company

[00:10:15] or do they understand, you know, William, your high potential, you just need some help.

[00:10:21] Like we're going to get you there, your high potential, we actually see you as leadership.

[00:10:26] You're not getting pushed back from those people.

[00:10:29] Does the phrase high potential, does that rub anyone the wrong way?

[00:10:33] It can feel insulting a little bit.

[00:10:36] So what happens to all of them?

[00:10:38] I feel like I'm being judged right now.

[00:10:40] I think you're being judged. I think I'm judging you.

[00:10:43] So if you're...

[00:10:44] If everyone's high potential, the word means nothing, right?

[00:10:51] So if you say that some are high potential, then you're also saying,

[00:10:56] the organization is also saying that there are low potential people, right?

[00:11:02] By not saying it.

[00:11:03] Yeah, well the same thing is performance, right?

[00:11:06] Performance, high performers, low performers.

[00:11:08] Every company needs average people.

[00:11:10] So you're making an argument that I've argued forever is a team of all A players doesn't win.

[00:11:21] It's true.

[00:11:21] You need some C players in there, in the mix.

[00:11:25] And I've had resistance.

[00:11:27] I've had actually people that are in the learning and training space code.

[00:11:30] No, you can make that work.

[00:11:31] I'm like, no.

[00:11:32] You need some C and D players in there.

[00:11:34] You need some low performers.

[00:11:37] I kind of feel like...

[00:11:38] Okay, so Marissa's probably listening to us and saying,

[00:11:40] what the hell did I get into?

[00:11:43] No, she's probably...

[00:11:44] All right, so this is a real scenario.

[00:11:45] And maybe you can actually help me in front of everybody.

[00:11:50] Let's do that.

[00:11:51] So back in the corporate days when I was with IBM,

[00:11:53] we had to go through our ratings, right?

[00:11:57] Five through one through five.

[00:11:59] But you couldn't have too many ones as top performers.

[00:12:02] Couldn't have too many fives.

[00:12:03] Couldn't have too many in the middle.

[00:12:04] So I had to follow a prescribed path to rank my set of employees,

[00:12:13] the people that worked in my group within these one and the fives.

[00:12:16] And they had to fall within.

[00:12:18] And so I had trouble with that.

[00:12:21] I had trouble with that because I understood,

[00:12:24] okay, you need so many high performers.

[00:12:26] If we're going to get to this level,

[00:12:27] here's where this person goes, if we got to make a cut.

[00:12:30] These are the people on the cutting block.

[00:12:32] It's just a horrible way to look at performance.

[00:12:34] Totally.

[00:12:35] I agree with that.

[00:12:36] Marissa, you're the expert.

[00:12:37] That's my question to Marissa is,

[00:12:41] I don't know that this is exactly what you're coaching,

[00:12:43] but in my situation, I didn't know what to do there.

[00:12:47] And it created a lot of anxiety for me.

[00:12:49] I remember those days.

[00:12:52] Yeah.

[00:12:52] So that kind of thing doesn't come up in my coaching a lot.

[00:12:58] And that reason why is because most of my clients find me

[00:13:01] at a point where they've already said, this is crazy.

[00:13:04] I'm not doing that.

[00:13:06] I don't want to work at an organization that makes me make

[00:13:09] decisions that are unnatural and basically zero sum.

[00:13:14] That is beyond my sort of space where I feel like I can be

[00:13:19] an integrity as a human being, as a leader,

[00:13:22] and I want to do something different.

[00:13:23] And I will say many firms, I've worked at firms that have done that.

[00:13:26] Many firms have evolved their practices beyond that in the last

[00:13:31] five to 10 years.

[00:13:32] And yet there are still many that do it.

[00:13:35] And it is anxiety producing.

[00:13:37] Absolutely.

[00:13:38] So what did you do in that scenario when you had a hard time?

[00:13:41] Gave all threes.

[00:13:42] We came up podcaster.

[00:13:44] I did.

[00:13:45] Well, actually not far off.

[00:13:47] Not far off.

[00:13:48] Not going to lie.

[00:13:50] That was my last corporate job.

[00:13:52] Yeah.

[00:13:53] That was my last corporate job.

[00:13:55] OK.

[00:13:55] That wasn't the reason.

[00:13:57] But I think that has a lasting impression on me that if

[00:14:04] I were to go back into corporate.

[00:14:06] You'd be thinking about it.

[00:14:07] I would be thinking about that.

[00:14:09] Right.

[00:14:09] I would be thinking about that.

[00:14:11] And similar to how a CHRO may not go into an organization that's

[00:14:16] using a specific subset of technologies, I would not be

[00:14:20] able to go into an organization that required me to do that.

[00:14:24] Right?

[00:14:25] Yeah.

[00:14:25] I just, I remember that vividly and I didn't like the feeling.

[00:14:29] Not that I didn't like managing the people in the group.

[00:14:32] Dude, how to give it everybody threes and just moved on.

[00:14:34] That process.

[00:14:35] You weren't allowed.

[00:14:36] You can't.

[00:14:37] You're not allowed to usually force curve.

[00:14:39] Or I would have done it blind.

[00:14:43] So I would have just taken the names off the thing and just filled

[00:14:46] it out, turned it in instead of having a hand.

[00:14:48] Not saying I didn't do that.

[00:14:50] So, Risa, quick question was we get into anxiety.

[00:14:54] What's the relationship between stress and anxiety?

[00:14:57] Or first of all, let me dump you, Assumptive.

[00:14:59] Is there a relationship between stress and anxiety?

[00:15:03] That's a very, very big question.

[00:15:07] Yeah.

[00:15:07] In 30 seconds.

[00:15:09] Yeah.

[00:15:10] I'm going to actually turn the question back to either you or Ryan,

[00:15:14] because what I'm going to just say is that that answer depends on

[00:15:17] the individual.

[00:15:18] So how would you define the relationship in your own life?

[00:15:23] So I, it's been explained to me and I think I agree with it

[00:15:28] that stress is the same today as it was 10,000 years ago.

[00:15:36] There are different stressors.

[00:15:39] So back then you were, you were afraid of being eaten by a dinosaur

[00:15:43] or where you're going to get your next water or where you're going

[00:15:46] to lay your head or something.

[00:15:48] But there was basically a cadence to stress.

[00:15:52] Okay.

[00:15:53] So the cadence to stress right now, well, I have a roof over

[00:15:56] my head and I'm not really worried about food or watering

[00:15:59] those other things.

[00:16:00] I'm worried about other things like my kids going off to college.

[00:16:02] Okay.

[00:16:04] So I've got a stressor around that.

[00:16:06] That's not like stress group.

[00:16:09] It's just, it's just different.

[00:16:12] So I look at anxiety.

[00:16:15] The things that cause me anxiety.

[00:16:19] I don't, I don't see a dot to dot relationship with stress

[00:16:24] between anxiety and stress.

[00:16:25] Like my anxieties probably because I, I'm acutely aware

[00:16:33] I'm bipolar and I'm acutely aware of the things that trigger me.

[00:16:40] And so like if I have anxiety, I understand the anxiety

[00:16:44] and so it doesn't create stress.

[00:16:47] Where I can have stress about something like financial stress

[00:16:50] that's different from, for me, it's different than anxiety.

[00:16:56] So, Ryan, do you have a similar?

[00:16:58] Not very far, yeah, not very far off.

[00:17:02] Probably very, very similar to be honest.

[00:17:05] I think I, and there are things that I stress about

[00:17:13] and nothing specific that I could think of but just,

[00:17:16] there are things that I stress about or get stressed

[00:17:21] because of.

[00:17:22] So I think society uses those words as synonyms.

[00:17:28] But I don't think they are.

[00:17:30] No, I don't either.

[00:17:31] But I think that if you were to walk around and talk to people

[00:17:34] at a grocery store and say anxiety stress

[00:17:38] and then say, yeah it's the same stuff.

[00:17:41] Yeah.

[00:17:41] So anyhow, back to the topic.

[00:17:45] No, it's really, really powerful to hear your stories

[00:17:48] and how stress and anxiety show up in your life

[00:17:52] and also it's really beautiful to see how you've done the work

[00:17:56] to create sharper definitions between those two sort of energies

[00:18:00] in your life so that they're less stressful actually.

[00:18:03] Like, oh I feel this, I know what to do.

[00:18:06] It's like I'm too cold, I better put a sweater on.

[00:18:10] Right.

[00:18:11] Right?

[00:18:12] Yeah.

[00:18:13] And you're observant, again it's like great golfers.

[00:18:16] They're a tune, I'm not.

[00:18:19] But they're a tune to their body in such a way.

[00:18:22] Like they can hit a shot and know, okay my elbow,

[00:18:25] my left elbow was up just an inch too high.

[00:18:29] Which is insane for me, that's insane.

[00:18:32] I'm not in tune to my body, I'm in tune to my mind.

[00:18:36] Right.

[00:18:36] But the rest of my physical body, I'm clueless.

[00:18:40] Right.

[00:18:40] Like absolutely clueless.

[00:18:42] The next question around anxiety is because you've tethered it

[00:18:46] in a way that's really, really cool with growth and improvement.

[00:18:50] How do people make the most of their anxiety?

[00:18:54] I guess is the question that's underpinning for me.

[00:18:57] It's like okay well if we're talking about improvement

[00:18:59] and growth both can be positive things.

[00:19:03] Anxiety, how do we turn that into a positive?

[00:19:07] How do we turn that into a mechanism?

[00:19:09] Is it negative?

[00:19:10] That's a great point.

[00:19:11] Yeah, we look at it as negative but I think that's just

[00:19:14] how it's been passed down at least to me.

[00:19:17] And its native state is anxiety neutral.

[00:19:21] And do we add to it either negative or positive to it?

[00:19:27] I don't know, that's a great one.

[00:19:29] That's a great question.

[00:19:31] Now Marisa you gotta tell us, now you gotta break it down for us.

[00:19:33] Okay so here's my frame on it and again this is my perspective

[00:19:37] is we can choose, right?

[00:19:39] It can be negative, it can be positive.

[00:19:41] It depends on what feels true for us in that moment.

[00:19:44] So anxiety shows up for you and it feels really like a propeller.

[00:19:49] Great, good for you.

[00:19:50] If it feels unbelievably negative, that's where we start.

[00:19:54] Okay this is horrible.

[00:19:55] We've gotta address you exactly where you are

[00:19:57] which is in de-stress about anxiety which is showing up

[00:20:01] in a negative way.

[00:20:02] For me I would frame anxiety in the light

[00:20:06] of kind of like natural rhythms and patterns, right?

[00:20:10] So if we are in a period of high anxiety

[00:20:14] which may be tipping us into a space of depression

[00:20:17] for some I've been through that.

[00:20:20] There is this I think beautiful parallel

[00:20:26] that you might draw to going into a winter season

[00:20:29] where it's appropriate to sort of come inside

[00:20:34] and nest of it, rest, reflect, sleep,

[00:20:39] be resourced in a way that is less sort of externally leaning.

[00:20:44] Right.

[00:20:45] Because you know that spring is gonna come

[00:20:47] but the winter needs to happen before spring

[00:20:50] can allow for the new growth and renewal to begin.

[00:20:54] So where the real anxiety and stress comes

[00:20:56] and particularly in the west

[00:20:58] a way that we run at 150 miles an hour

[00:21:01] without ever stopping

[00:21:03] we don't allow for seasons to happen

[00:21:05] that's not permitted, right?

[00:21:09] What do you mean you have to slow down?

[00:21:11] That's not gonna allow for the bottom line

[00:21:13] to continue to grow and exponential.

[00:21:15] It's seen as a weakness.

[00:21:17] It's seen as a weakness, right?

[00:21:19] And or potentially a risk, a liability,

[00:21:21] you're not hard working, right?

[00:21:23] All these weird labels get put on people

[00:21:25] but the reality is we are part of nature

[00:21:28] just like a tree or a tulip and a bear, right?

[00:21:32] And so to try to believe that we are never supposed

[00:21:36] to slow down or have seasons of inward looking experience

[00:21:40] would be to deny who we really are

[00:21:44] and how our bodies and minds need to work

[00:21:46] and that's to me the frame that I would use

[00:21:49] in terms of positive or negative.

[00:21:51] Do you think winter is negative?

[00:21:53] I don't know.

[00:21:53] Well, I do because I'm not a cold weather person

[00:21:56] but do you schedule the reflective period?

[00:22:01] Yeah, because this is for Native American folks

[00:22:04] or indigenous people really all over the world.

[00:22:06] The winter months are absolutely a time of reflection.

[00:22:10] You go to all around the world

[00:22:12] and basically it's the same thing for tribe to tribe.

[00:22:16] So that was kind of scheduled.

[00:22:19] At least pre-contact that was scheduled.

[00:22:21] And again for the listeners

[00:22:26] before hunting season and before harvest

[00:22:29] and all those other things

[00:22:30] it was a great time to reflect backwards

[00:22:33] and also to look forwards

[00:22:34] and kind of see what needs to change

[00:22:37] if anything needs to change.

[00:22:39] It's also great family time, et cetera.

[00:22:41] The question I have is in today in modern society

[00:22:45] do you schedule reflection

[00:22:47] or do you allow reflection to happen when it happens?

[00:22:52] Beautiful question.

[00:22:54] I'm going to annoy you probably by saying again

[00:22:56] it depends on the person.

[00:22:57] Marissa you will not annoy me.

[00:22:59] You can't annoy me.

[00:23:01] Well how am I not?

[00:23:03] I don't have that.

[00:23:05] It's not very fair.

[00:23:07] No.

[00:23:09] We work together.

[00:23:11] Marissa, she's not going to annoy me anyhow.

[00:23:14] I interrupted, I apologize.

[00:23:15] But I actually Marissa

[00:23:16] I knew you were going to say that

[00:23:18] because well you said it before

[00:23:20] but too because as he's asking the question

[00:23:24] I'm thinking no I don't schedule.

[00:23:27] I don't schedule.

[00:23:28] It's when it needs to happen for me

[00:23:30] it kind of just forces me to do that.

[00:23:33] Is that crash or is that burnout?

[00:23:37] No, I think

[00:23:40] long ago maybe.

[00:23:42] Long ago I hit the point of like

[00:23:44] can't take it anymore.

[00:23:46] Your body said no more.

[00:23:48] Right now I think it's I've learned

[00:23:50] what that looks like.

[00:23:52] I learn what I understand what good is for me

[00:23:54] what bad is for me.

[00:23:55] I think it just happens with age

[00:23:57] and living through things.

[00:24:00] Now I understand that I can see

[00:24:03] what's happening when it's happening

[00:24:05] and I can slow myself down

[00:24:06] and say okay whether it's work

[00:24:09] relationships, friends, kids

[00:24:11] like I can see it

[00:24:14] and I can stop

[00:24:15] and then I kind of go into my own little happy land

[00:24:17] and I can reflect on whatever I need to.

[00:24:20] But I don't have a schedule time

[00:24:23] like you were talking about.

[00:24:25] Yeah, so when I hear you say that Ryan

[00:24:27] it reminds me of Williams description

[00:24:29] of the golfer who knows that his elbow

[00:24:31] was an inch too high.

[00:24:33] You're really in tune with yourself

[00:24:36] and so you don't need the schedule

[00:24:37] because you just know when you have to do it.

[00:24:40] I think for somebody who's less

[00:24:42] in tune with themselves they might

[00:24:44] want to schedule it because they're less aware.

[00:24:47] And if they have a more of a schedule

[00:24:50] and not relying on that intuition

[00:24:52] which is just a muscle, it gets sharper

[00:24:53] everybody can get sharper with it

[00:24:56] if they want to.

[00:24:57] The schedule will allow you to not get

[00:24:59] so out of date with yourself

[00:25:01] that you push into a space of anxiety

[00:25:04] that's more debilitating than

[00:25:06] oh no I've got to sit down

[00:25:08] and meditate for 20 minutes

[00:25:10] tonight and I know if I don't

[00:25:11] I will have a worse day tomorrow.

[00:25:13] Right, and the way that we've talked about it

[00:25:16] it's like inspiration

[00:25:18] but Ryan and I we do a lot of tactical

[00:25:21] stuff that

[00:25:23] it irritates us

[00:25:25] like a lot of people.

[00:25:27] There's always some piece of work

[00:25:29] that you just don't like doing

[00:25:32] and so it's almost like you have to be

[00:25:34] inspired to do that piece of work

[00:25:38] and so that isn't scheduled

[00:25:40] you just got to wait until that inspiration

[00:25:42] comes and then be able to...

[00:25:44] Yeah, go through that burst of energy

[00:25:46] go through it, fight through it

[00:25:48] there used to be a thing on my monitor years ago

[00:25:51] that really helped me

[00:25:53] was do first what you dread most

[00:25:56] So I would come in every day

[00:25:58] and I would look at that and go

[00:26:00] okay what's the thing on my list that I'm absolutely hating

[00:26:02] okay that is, I'll go do that first

[00:26:05] and when I do it, the rest of the day would open up

[00:26:08] It was never that hard

[00:26:11] whatever I'd built up in my mind

[00:26:13] it was never that hard

[00:26:13] once I got through it it was like

[00:26:16] So I'm looking at the clock

[00:26:17] The rest of the day is going to be easy

[00:26:18] I'm looking at the clock, we're 25

[00:26:20] We're 26 minutes into this conversation

[00:26:23] You have anxiety

[00:26:25] and I'm feeling like

[00:26:28] you and me, you and me

[00:26:30] I say no, you and I, we just went to therapy

[00:26:33] like we...

[00:26:35] No, we'll be coached dude

[00:26:36] We're being coached, yeah

[00:26:38] see how I used that the wrong way

[00:26:40] but this is...

[00:26:43] This is what she does with her clients

[00:26:45] She sneaks up on them like a ninja

[00:26:49] She's like, I'm not going to talk

[00:26:51] I'm just going to let them continue to go down this hole

[00:26:54] and find themselves

[00:26:55] and you kind of did because when you said

[00:26:58] when you were talking after I had shared

[00:27:00] I kind of know when, I feel it

[00:27:03] I do kind of have a schedule

[00:27:04] I have fishing trips throughout the year

[00:27:07] three of them that I know is in June

[00:27:10] usually in September and then in February

[00:27:12] and I can cut my year up

[00:27:15] based on those and I know I'm getting away

[00:27:17] and not having to do anything for three or four days

[00:27:20] each time

[00:27:21] When did you start scheduling those trips?

[00:27:25] Oh, no

[00:27:26] That was a long time ago

[00:27:29] That's just because the group of guys that I'm with

[00:27:31] we just... they all go at that time

[00:27:34] and we fish all year

[00:27:35] but those are the times that's it

[00:27:38] no family, just us

[00:27:39] Yeah

[00:27:40] And that's another dimension I think

[00:27:43] of anxiety that we overlook

[00:27:46] that this is a little bit more subtle

[00:27:48] but this notion of community

[00:27:50] has become a bigger deal for us lately

[00:27:53] because we are so independent

[00:27:55] and self-sufficient and the internet allows us to be

[00:27:58] kind of fake connected to people

[00:28:01] Oh, 100%

[00:28:02] And so we

[00:28:05] lose ourselves and we lose a lot of resourcing

[00:28:10] because we've almost tricked ourselves

[00:28:12] it's like wearing headphones instead of listening to

[00:28:14] an actual guitar player in a room with you

[00:28:17] It's not the same thing but it almost could be

[00:28:20] Right? And so without community

[00:28:22] and other people like this group of guys

[00:28:24] who you go fishing with and they're going to be like

[00:28:27] what do you mean you're not coming in February with us?

[00:28:29] I get the shame

[00:28:31] Yeah, it keeps you really kind of

[00:28:34] on track with

[00:28:36] you're not just doing this for yourself and

[00:28:38] oh I'm being indulgent I guess

[00:28:40] I really should just not go and work harder

[00:28:42] because that would be quote better

[00:28:44] The community element of being

[00:28:47] together with people

[00:28:49] and doing things that make us feel good

[00:28:51] not because we're intellectualizing it

[00:28:54] but because it just feels good

[00:28:55] is really ultimately

[00:28:57] I think what allows us to stay away from that space

[00:29:00] of anxiety and to be more on the other side

[00:29:03] of this sort of spectrum which is

[00:29:04] well-being for no reason at all

[00:29:06] because so much of anxiety we're like

[00:29:08] why do I feel so bad? I can't put a finger on it

[00:29:11] but we don't ask ourselves that question

[00:29:13] when we feel great

[00:29:15] I bet when you're on the fishing trip

[00:29:17] with your guys you're not thinking God

[00:29:19] why do I feel so good right now

[00:29:21] You would never ask that

[00:29:24] No, I have other thoughts

[00:29:28] Do I have to go back?

[00:29:30] When there's three foot rollers

[00:29:31] I'm like what the hell am I doing out here

[00:29:33] It's raining it's been six hours

[00:29:36] Have a good fish

[00:29:38] There are sometimes

[00:29:40] I did have a question around anxiety

[00:29:42] and in my career

[00:29:44] I've both been addicted to change

[00:29:46] and I've been around other people

[00:29:48] that have been addicted to change

[00:29:50] Can someone be addicted to anxiety?

[00:29:54] Of course I do

[00:29:56] You can be addicted to anything

[00:29:59] Can it be a good thing?

[00:30:02] We were talking about traders

[00:30:04] and how they suppress

[00:30:06] or they use anxiety in a different way

[00:30:10] I don't want to say suppress

[00:30:11] but they use anxiety to their betterment

[00:30:15] It's almost like a motivation

[00:30:18] Can you think of any other examples

[00:30:21] where people use anxiety

[00:30:22] to motivate them in the right direction?

[00:30:25] Oh my gosh, a million

[00:30:27] I mean as we were saying before

[00:30:30] I am at my home in Hawaii

[00:30:32] and I'm around a lot of people

[00:30:34] who like to be in the ocean

[00:30:35] who are surfers or innovating on foils

[00:30:39] or doing cool things like that

[00:30:41] You are right up against

[00:30:43] forces that could totally take you down

[00:30:46] in a heartbeat

[00:30:47] It's what keeps them going

[00:30:49] It's what makes them

[00:30:51] particularly where I live

[00:30:53] there are some people who are doing

[00:30:54] some really interesting things

[00:30:57] moving from surfboards to foils

[00:30:59] and innovating the sport

[00:31:01] and also innovating ways to take bigger risks

[00:31:03] and to stay safe

[00:31:05] Right?

[00:31:07] You've got the great white today

[00:31:08] I'm good

[00:31:11] Or to say, I love this so much

[00:31:13] that I know there are sharks in this water

[00:31:15] and I'm going to trust that I'm not going to get eaten

[00:31:17] because chances are I won't

[00:31:19] and yet it's always possible

[00:31:21] I'm just like in the ocean every day

[00:31:24] that's what I say to myself

[00:31:25] I want to ask you this question

[00:31:28] That's fantastic

[00:31:29] Related to what you just said Marissa

[00:31:31] but this is my sick mind thinking here

[00:31:34] Do you have

[00:31:36] or do you know

[00:31:37] people usually where you're at specifically

[00:31:40] they don't feel

[00:31:42] a shark attack would ever happen

[00:31:44] to them because there are

[00:31:46] one with the shark

[00:31:47] They care so much about

[00:31:50] the water, the ocean

[00:31:52] the fish within

[00:31:53] they're not going to be attacked because

[00:31:56] it's kind of like pit bull owners

[00:31:58] It's called delusions

[00:31:59] But there's that moment

[00:32:02] where I have a few friends that have pit bulls

[00:32:04] and they're super joke

[00:32:05] play with them, rob them, do everything

[00:32:08] but I get within a

[00:32:09] I'm like, I want to stay back

[00:32:12] here a little bit

[00:32:13] but I'm thinking like

[00:32:15] we call them toothy critters

[00:32:17] there's fish that have a lot of

[00:32:19] big teeth

[00:32:20] and I have many pictures of

[00:32:23] slices on my hand

[00:32:24] but in my mind at the time

[00:32:27] I actually believe

[00:32:29] no, he knows I'm taking the hook out of him

[00:32:31] and I'm going to put him back

[00:32:33] he totally like we're friends

[00:32:35] and then that sucker just latches

[00:32:37] on me and it's not

[00:32:39] friends anymore

[00:32:41] Right, totally

[00:32:42] Is that delusional or is that like a thing?

[00:32:44] I really think that's real and certainly

[00:32:46] in white

[00:32:48] people do definitely

[00:32:50] have mastered that. I'm not one of them

[00:32:52] definitely not

[00:32:53] I really do think

[00:32:56] we can come into relationship with

[00:32:58] anything if we're

[00:32:59] we can manage our own energy

[00:33:02] in a powerful way

[00:33:04] including with the shark

[00:33:05] I doubt that I will ever get to that level

[00:33:08] but I've heard of people

[00:33:10] we have, I'm sure you have as well

[00:33:12] and I believe it

[00:33:14] in the same way that your friends who pit bulls

[00:33:17] really

[00:33:18] really believe that this pit bull is never going to

[00:33:20] attack them because they have a relationship

[00:33:22] and there's that deep trust

[00:33:24] and I think with anxiety within ourselves

[00:33:28] we

[00:33:28] can do that as well. I really think when

[00:33:30] we like William is triggered

[00:33:32] in some way and he knows what his

[00:33:34] triggers are and yet sometimes he can't avoid

[00:33:36] the triggers. I'm okay now I've been triggered

[00:33:39] but I know what to do

[00:33:40] and I know I can get to the other

[00:33:43] side and it's not

[00:33:44] necessarily comfortable or enjoyable

[00:33:46] but I have resourced

[00:33:48] enough within myself, I'm around loved people

[00:33:50] who love me enough to help me through

[00:33:52] that and it will be okay

[00:33:54] so I think that

[00:33:56] is it. It's the relationship piece

[00:33:58] William has a relationship with himself

[00:34:00] he's been resourced

[00:34:02] your friends with the pit bulls

[00:34:04] the shark masters

[00:34:06] right it's all about

[00:34:08] that relationship and that also being

[00:34:10] able to manage your own energy or not

[00:34:12] to be afraid of yourself which is then

[00:34:14] going to project fear into

[00:34:16] whatever's outside of you

[00:34:17] and that's just muscle building

[00:34:19] it really is that simple

[00:34:22] yeah it's not nature versus nurture

[00:34:24] this is it's not genetic

[00:34:26] it's learned behavior

[00:34:27] totally yeah so

[00:34:30] do you find that

[00:34:31] people that can

[00:34:33] manage anxiety is there

[00:34:35] any relationship with spirituality or religion

[00:34:37] in any way

[00:34:39] often yes I think

[00:34:41] that's a really powerful point to bring

[00:34:43] in but not

[00:34:45] everybody I know plenty of people

[00:34:47] many friends who are atheists

[00:34:49] or don't believe in God or whatever

[00:34:51] I think that's fine whatever

[00:34:53] it is for you that

[00:34:55] allows you to believe that there

[00:34:57] is it's not just up

[00:34:59] to you

[00:35:01] what I think ultimately allows people

[00:35:03] to feel like they can

[00:35:05] handle hard things

[00:35:06] I was raised in a family where

[00:35:10] I have some

[00:35:11] incredibly loving people

[00:35:13] who are I would say

[00:35:15] truly like mastered the art of unconditional

[00:35:17] love and I'm not

[00:35:19] saying that the family that I came from is perfect

[00:35:21] but definitely

[00:35:23] some skill around how to love people including

[00:35:25] people who are find themselves in

[00:35:27] hard circumstances

[00:35:28] where they might be considered unlovable

[00:35:30] and they were still loved

[00:35:33] and I think

[00:35:33] if you are find yourself in community

[00:35:37] in whatever way with some people

[00:35:39] who can love you through the hard

[00:35:41] things you can manage your anxiety

[00:35:43] and sometimes you don't

[00:35:44] have that and spirituality or religion

[00:35:46] can be a very powerful

[00:35:48] sort of substitute for

[00:35:51] that but really

[00:35:52] what I'd boil that down to is just safety

[00:35:54] right it's not just up to you

[00:35:56] you're not alone

[00:35:57] you're held by something maybe it's a person

[00:36:00] maybe it's a God maybe it's the sky

[00:36:02] whatever you need

[00:36:04] but that you're held because I do think that we

[00:36:06] as humans are not intended

[00:36:08] or designed to be

[00:36:10] self-sufficient as you know we're so

[00:36:12] told I really think

[00:36:14] that is actually going against nature

[00:36:16] and when we can forgive ourselves

[00:36:19] for not having to be totally

[00:36:20] self-sufficient or not being great at it

[00:36:22] because we're not supposed to be

[00:36:24] that's when some of the power comes back online

[00:36:26] where you can then manage some of the hard moments

[00:36:28] this self-sufficiency

[00:36:30] is getting back to nature

[00:36:31] and understanding that there's a relationship between

[00:36:35] you and trees and animals

[00:36:37] and the sky

[00:36:37] land all of that type stuff

[00:36:39] hmm, yep

[00:36:42] interesting sounds like you have a relationship

[00:36:44] with nature

[00:36:46] yourself yeah I was taught

[00:36:48] that uh

[00:36:49] I mean it's actually it's just

[00:36:51] Cherokee philosophy is that

[00:36:53] there's man

[00:36:55] spirit land so think of

[00:36:57] three of Venn diagram with three circles

[00:36:59] so

[00:37:01] man has relationship with spirit

[00:37:03] man has relationship with the land

[00:37:05] the land has relationship

[00:37:07] with spirit we don't know about that

[00:37:09] so there's things that we know

[00:37:11] and then there's things that we don't know

[00:37:12] and so but it's all interconnected

[00:37:15] it's a lot of tribes

[00:37:17] have the same kind of belief system

[00:37:19] at least here in North America

[00:37:20] that everything's interconnected

[00:37:23] yeah everything so

[00:37:25] thinking of us being more

[00:37:27] than or self-sufficient

[00:37:29] in some ways is just silly

[00:37:32] totally

[00:37:33] so so yeah

[00:37:35] but that's that's just

[00:37:37] I mean that's that's just Cherokee philosophy

[00:37:39] um how do you

[00:37:41] I say breakdown that's not

[00:37:43] the right phrase but when you're first

[00:37:45] working with a client

[00:37:47] that's just been referred into

[00:37:49] your first call first couple calls

[00:37:51] how are you trying to figure them out

[00:37:54] in terms of what they need

[00:37:56] because it if they

[00:37:57] could express what they need

[00:37:59] then I'd have to I'd have to for me

[00:38:01] I'd have to like okay is that exactly

[00:38:03] is that actually what they need

[00:38:05] or do they know

[00:38:07] what they need or can

[00:38:09] express what they need so like

[00:38:11] how do you and I say map it

[00:38:13] that's not the right phrase

[00:38:14] intake yeah how do you

[00:38:17] get to understand okay this is

[00:38:19] the things that they care about

[00:38:21] and here are some of the things that

[00:38:23] clearly are missing

[00:38:24] need to be worked on etc like how

[00:38:26] what's that process like

[00:38:28] so it's a really good question

[00:38:30] and thank you for it it's very thoughtful

[00:38:32] because

[00:38:36] one of the

[00:38:37] really important sort

[00:38:39] of tenets of coaching is

[00:38:40] really high respect

[00:38:42] for the client and for

[00:38:45] facilitating and reflecting

[00:38:47] the client's own brilliance

[00:38:48] that the coaches

[00:38:50] different from therapists don't have

[00:38:52] the answers and we're going to tell you

[00:38:54] what's wrong with you and pathologize or whatever

[00:38:57] right it's a

[00:38:58] very high respect process and this

[00:39:00] is the benefit of also there being a little bit

[00:39:03] of structure and regulation around

[00:39:04] coaching because we all learn how to do

[00:39:06] this in a way

[00:39:08] that is consistent across the industry

[00:39:10] that we allow our

[00:39:12] clients because it's often the case that they aren't

[00:39:15] necessarily used to being

[00:39:16] listened to and to have

[00:39:18] a sort of a floor

[00:39:20] to just share whatever they need

[00:39:22] for as long as they need with somebody who

[00:39:24] is captive and committed to understanding them

[00:39:26] or at least trying to so

[00:39:28] you William might

[00:39:30] you know as my new client

[00:39:32] say God I'm

[00:39:34] I have no idea how to be

[00:39:36] a coachy I've never done this before

[00:39:38] and yet I know it's a great thing and

[00:39:40] I'm glad my company is paying for this

[00:39:42] and I don't really know what to do but this

[00:39:44] is all the stuff that's on my mind

[00:39:46] and I say to them great then let's just

[00:39:48] have like a verbal

[00:39:50] let it all out

[00:39:52] take as long as you need don't worry

[00:39:54] about being coherent pay me for the first time

[00:39:57] all week be as

[00:39:58] incoherent as you want leave

[00:40:00] nothing out say the things you think

[00:40:02] you can't say to anybody else and

[00:40:04] my job is to listen really

[00:40:06] carefully and to notice

[00:40:08] what I notice and to notice

[00:40:10] the patterns in what they're saying or the

[00:40:12] inconsistencies and then to reflect

[00:40:14] back this is what I heard you

[00:40:16] say did I get

[00:40:18] that right did I get that wrong

[00:40:20] what in that reflection feels like something

[00:40:22] that you want to double click on and

[00:40:24] from there we kind of keep drilling down

[00:40:26] or peeling the layers of the onion further

[00:40:28] and further and we start

[00:40:30] to after we've built up a little bit of trust

[00:40:32] or let all the air out of the balloon

[00:40:34] as sometimes is necessary

[00:40:36] start to distill a little bit more clearly

[00:40:38] what do we want to work on because

[00:40:40] we can't boil the ocean obviously

[00:40:42] but we can cover a lot over

[00:40:45] usually my clients work

[00:40:46] with me over a 10 session arc

[00:40:48] and we usually achieve

[00:40:50] some major changes over

[00:40:52] 10 sessions and and usually there's more

[00:40:54] after that but we create a new arc

[00:40:56] just like a new season in a TV

[00:40:58] show

[00:41:01] but that's how we start

[00:41:02] and so it's very very

[00:41:04] respectful of the clients

[00:41:06] own awareness and

[00:41:08] brilliance even if they don't see it

[00:41:10] and the coaches primary

[00:41:12] opportunity is to act as a mirror

[00:41:14] and reflection of what they're hearing

[00:41:15] because it's often the case I'm sure you guys

[00:41:18] see it as well as podcasters you don't

[00:41:20] always know what you're saying until you listen

[00:41:22] to yourself back and you're like oh wow

[00:41:25] right

[00:41:26] right

[00:41:31] thank you

[00:41:31] last question for me

[00:41:32] is first of all thank you

[00:41:34] but there is a

[00:41:38] bit about therapists

[00:41:40] having a therapist like a therapist

[00:41:42] that works with just only therapists

[00:41:44] are there coaches that

[00:41:46] just work with four coaches worth other

[00:41:48] coaches like do you have a coach

[00:41:51] so

[00:41:52] I do have a whole

[00:41:54] cohort of other coaches

[00:41:56] who are my colleagues

[00:41:58] we actually meet regularly

[00:41:59] to do sort of

[00:42:02] training we like kind of

[00:42:03] teach and for each other and also

[00:42:06] share thematically what we're

[00:42:08] seeing what's challenging in our clients

[00:42:10] sort of relationships organizationally

[00:42:12] how are we wanting to

[00:42:14] shift as individuals and how do we

[00:42:16] leverage each other

[00:42:17] on an ICF standpoint

[00:42:19] there are sort of supervisory

[00:42:22] requirements to renew your license

[00:42:24] every couple of years

[00:42:26] there's continuing education and then

[00:42:28] there's also like you need to submit

[00:42:30] recordings of your coaching sessions

[00:42:32] to senior coaches to listen to

[00:42:34] and give you feedback so

[00:42:37] yes so there do I

[00:42:38] have a coach

[00:42:40] yes I do I have a whole bunch of them

[00:42:42] actually and you do really need it

[00:42:44] because you are you know taking on a

[00:42:46] lot of emotion and you also

[00:42:48] are human too when you have your own

[00:42:50] things so you want to make sure you don't let

[00:42:52] that seep into your relationships

[00:42:54] but it's also a beautiful

[00:42:56] community of people who are trying to

[00:42:58] do the work and

[00:43:00] I often say to my clients I need you

[00:43:02] as much as you need me you teach me

[00:43:04] as much as you feel I'm teaching you

[00:43:06] and I want to thank you so

[00:43:08] sincerely for that because we're all helping each other

[00:43:10] we really are

[00:43:15] yeah walks off stage

[00:43:17] how much more we could say

[00:43:18] this has been wonderful

[00:43:20] thank you so much for carving out time for us Marissa

[00:43:23] oh thank you for the audience been great

[00:43:25] for Ryan and I

[00:43:27] just thank you

[00:43:28] thank you I really loved it you guys have a great

[00:43:31] energy made me feel so comfortable

[00:43:33] and

[00:43:34] I get nervous sometimes being recorded so

[00:43:36] thank you we're just jealous of you

[00:43:39] being in Hawaii that's all this is about

[00:43:41] just understand we'd rather

[00:43:43] be where you're at than where we're at

[00:43:45] but come on visit

[00:43:47] anytime live coaching

[00:43:49] here we come

[00:43:51] no sharks are

[00:43:52] surfing for me but I'll do live coaching session

[00:43:55] we'll do a coach session

[00:43:56] as we climb into the crater of the volcano

[00:43:59] about that there you go

[00:44:00] I'm game

[00:44:02] game for that

[00:44:04] alright Marissa thank you so much

[00:44:06] and to the audience we'll see you next time