Exploring Ageism in the Workplace: Redefining Mentorship and Layoffs

[00:00:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, this is William Tink up in Ryan, Larry, and you are listening and watching the You Should Know podcast.

[00:00:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Our topic today is Fighting Ageism.

[00:00:21] [SPEAKER_01]: So we're going to be talking about Ageism, and we have Lauren on to kind of school us and

[00:00:26] [SPEAKER_01]: take us through this topic.

[00:00:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And so we're going to wander through it.

[00:00:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Lauren, how are you doing today?

[00:00:31] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm doing great.

[00:00:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for having me guys.

[00:00:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Always interested in talking about this topic among many others and excited to dig in with you.

[00:00:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Awesome.

[00:00:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Glad, right?

[00:00:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I was going to say I have a problem with Ageism.

[00:00:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm always mistaken for like a 20-year-old man.

[00:00:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Can't try to be a man in the room.

[00:00:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Can you get card at a bar?

[00:00:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I do.

[00:00:55] [SPEAKER_02]: That's right.

[00:00:56] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't.

[00:00:56] [SPEAKER_01]: I wish I'd.

[00:00:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I tip people that guard the card me at this point in my life.

[00:01:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Anyone cards me like a man to tell you.

[00:01:03] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm a man.

[00:01:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I give them $20.

[00:01:06] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, dude, seriously.

[00:01:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Age to me sometimes is kind of like, in a way I promise we'll get right into the

[00:01:13] [SPEAKER_02]: topic, Lauren.

[00:01:14] [SPEAKER_02]: But it's not a feel like you ever feel really good about yourself one day and you're

[00:01:20] [SPEAKER_02]: just kind of strutting along.

[00:01:21] [SPEAKER_02]: And so if you feel okay man, you look kind of tired today.

[00:01:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, yeah, don't I felt pretty good?

[00:01:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's just impacted me.

[00:01:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I literally, I feel like I'm 20 or 25 and I feel like I look that age too.

[00:01:36] [SPEAKER_02]: And then my kids say, you have crow's feet.

[00:01:39] [SPEAKER_02]: What the hell is a crow's feet?

[00:01:40] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, wow.

[00:01:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I think I've entered into an older age.

[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_02]: But that's not what I'm talking about.

[00:01:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I just told you this bit.

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I was doing a merit badge class.

[00:01:54] [SPEAKER_01]: She just joined the boy scouts.

[00:01:56] [SPEAKER_01]: No, no, I've been both.

[00:01:58] [SPEAKER_01]: I was just saying.

[00:01:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And there he is.

[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_01]: So there's just two kids and it was on Indian lore.

[00:02:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And I wanted to do it differently.

[00:02:05] [SPEAKER_01]: So I pulled up chat to B.T.

[00:02:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And I said, listen, we're not going to use Google.

[00:02:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And when the kids looks at me and say, yeah, Google's for boomers.

[00:02:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my.

[00:02:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm gonna steal that.

[00:02:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Hey, what is Google?

[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_01]: What do you go?

[00:02:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Dang, where are you?

[00:02:23] [SPEAKER_01]: You've been chatting to B.T.

[00:02:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And they're both like, I co-

[00:02:25] [SPEAKER_01]: We're just rolled with it like nothing.

[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_01]: But when he said Google's for boomers, I'm like,

[00:02:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm definitely going to steal that.

[00:02:34] [SPEAKER_01]: But it also kind of feels like my chest is tight.

[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.

[00:02:38] [SPEAKER_01]: It's things a bit.

[00:02:39] [SPEAKER_01]: It's things a bit.

[00:02:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Tell us a little bit about yourself before we get too far

[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_01]: into this.

[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Tell what do you do?

[00:02:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so I'm an HR consultant.

[00:02:47] [SPEAKER_00]: So about 20 years of corporate HR experience

[00:02:52] [SPEAKER_00]: kind of led me to the point where I started my own.

[00:02:55] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just 20 years.

[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's 2010, 7, 140 years.

[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.

[00:03:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's a lot of years.

[00:03:03] [SPEAKER_02]: So 20 years sounds less than two decades.

[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_02]: It does.

[00:03:08] [SPEAKER_02]: So I liked 20 years.

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't like that.

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:03:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Two decades.

[00:03:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:03:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Definitely have the decades of experience.

[00:03:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you did generous.

[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Did you go and do some of the specials work?

[00:03:18] [SPEAKER_00]: So I was mainly specialist work.

[00:03:20] [SPEAKER_00]: So mainly benefits total rewards.

[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And when I started the consulting business,

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_00]: it was primarily focused in that, but then quickly

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_00]: expanded into all areas.

[00:03:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And now have a team of folks that are former professionals

[00:03:36] [SPEAKER_00]: in the HR space that are now doing a little bit of everything

[00:03:40] [SPEAKER_00]: in all functions of HR.

[00:03:42] [SPEAKER_00]: So we just, our focus on really kind of helping employers

[00:03:45] [SPEAKER_00]: mainly like HR teams and our business owners

[00:03:48] [SPEAKER_00]: when they have project needs or maybe they

[00:03:51] [SPEAKER_00]: have an opening on their team

[00:03:52] [SPEAKER_00]: and they need someone to kind of fill the gap

[00:03:54] [SPEAKER_00]: until they permanently replace them.

[00:03:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Whatever the case may be.

[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_00]: So we're kind of HR expertise on demand so to speak.

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you do process and re-engineering and stuff like that

[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_01]: or do you take technology?

[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's stuff.

[00:04:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we do.

[00:04:10] [SPEAKER_00]: We come in and do a lot of audits.

[00:04:12] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we play in audits.

[00:04:14] [SPEAKER_00]: We need to process audits.

[00:04:15] [SPEAKER_00]: We can do a lot of recommendations around what

[00:04:16] [SPEAKER_00]: we find there.

[00:04:18] [SPEAKER_00]: We also have project managers on the team who

[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_00]: can kind of step in and help with implementations, whether

[00:04:23] [SPEAKER_00]: it be system or new values.

[00:04:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that's cool.

[00:04:25] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's a little bit of everything.

[00:04:28] [SPEAKER_00]: We can kind of leverage our former corporate HR

[00:04:31] [SPEAKER_00]: expertise just in a new way helping HR teams

[00:04:34] [SPEAKER_00]: and business owners when they need it.

[00:04:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[00:04:37] [SPEAKER_00]: You have to be on the payroll.

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just when you need us for here.

[00:04:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I love that.

[00:04:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I love that.

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_01]: So all right, let's get into the Hism.

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_01]: So fighting Hism.

[00:04:49] [SPEAKER_01]: So what do you see currently in the market?

[00:04:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And what are you from your colleagues and friends and stuff

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_01]: like what do you see around Hism?

[00:04:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:04:58] [SPEAKER_00]: It's something I think that it's always been there, right?

[00:05:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's always been there to the extent

[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_00]: that we've even had to bake it into some federal laws

[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_00]: around being very careful about having that effect our

[00:05:12] [SPEAKER_00]: decision-making or someone's career trajectory.

[00:05:16] [SPEAKER_00]: We really just kind of, I think there's

[00:05:19] [SPEAKER_00]: misnores out there, particularly as we continue

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_00]: to advance technologically speaking,

[00:05:26] [SPEAKER_00]: that there are people of a certain generation

[00:05:28] [SPEAKER_00]: that aren't able to keep up with that

[00:05:30] [SPEAKER_00]: or aren't able to contribute beyond a certain age.

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that that is becoming more and more apparent

[00:05:37] [SPEAKER_00]: in today's space.

[00:05:39] [SPEAKER_00]: You think about chat, Chippee Tee,

[00:05:41] [SPEAKER_00]: like we were just talking about.

[00:05:42] [SPEAKER_00]: There are a variety of different ways to do different things.

[00:05:44] [SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't mean that one way versus another is wrong.

[00:05:48] [SPEAKER_00]: But I do think that there's this misnomer around Facebook

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_00]: being for boomers or being for boomers.

[00:05:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Or even kind of starting to look at Gen X as a generation

[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_00]: that is past their time.

[00:06:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And I just wholeheartedly disagree with that.

[00:06:09] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that there are some really disappointing themes

[00:06:16] [SPEAKER_00]: that kind of weird their ugly head when it comes to ageism.

[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_00]: And I see that a lot of HR teams who might be at larger

[00:06:23] [SPEAKER_00]: companies are having to think more specifically about

[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_00]: this topic and how do they train and or communicate on this

[00:06:32] [SPEAKER_00]: topic?

[00:06:33] [SPEAKER_00]: And I see a lot of smaller businesses, business owners

[00:06:37] [SPEAKER_00]: who entrepreneurs who might be making decisions

[00:06:42] [SPEAKER_00]: for their business based upon some misconceptions around age.

[00:06:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And so ultimately what I'm seeing is just

[00:06:50] [SPEAKER_00]: these misconceptions are coming up more and more

[00:06:52] [SPEAKER_00]: because of advancing technology.

[00:06:56] [SPEAKER_00]: And my position is we just got to kind of get ahead of that.

[00:07:01] [SPEAKER_00]: We don't want to fall back into that pattern

[00:07:03] [SPEAKER_00]: that we dug ourselves out of years ago.

[00:07:06] [SPEAKER_00]: It's something that we need to continue to stay on top of.

[00:07:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Question about this.

[00:07:12] [SPEAKER_02]: I guess I guess it can be a really anti-Size company.

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_02]: The individuals that are in position that are making these decisions

[00:07:21] [SPEAKER_02]: on process or how they're handling

[00:07:25] [SPEAKER_02]: ages in the company or approaching it.

[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Do you find that these are, and this is going to be totally

[00:07:33] [SPEAKER_02]: counter into it if through everything we're talking about?

[00:07:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Are they older people or are they younger people

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_02]: who running that show?

[00:07:42] [SPEAKER_00]: That's a really good question because I think most of us

[00:07:46] [SPEAKER_00]: typically think when we think of ageism that it's someone

[00:07:50] [SPEAKER_00]: who is maybe closer to retirement age or of an older generation

[00:07:57] [SPEAKER_00]: who is experiencing the effects of that.

[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_00]: But it can also be happening the other way around,

[00:08:02] [SPEAKER_00]: particularly with new entrance into the workforce.

[00:08:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Especially as we're seeing a lot of the Gen Z generation.

[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just doing things differently and wanting

[00:08:16] [SPEAKER_00]: different things out of their work.

[00:08:19] [SPEAKER_00]: And so I think when you think about a workplace environment,

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_00]: it's the age of some kind of happening both ends of the spectrum here.

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I do think that the majority of leaders who

[00:08:30] [SPEAKER_00]: are making decisions in an organization tend to typically

[00:08:34] [SPEAKER_00]: be part of an older generation, mainly because they've worked their way

[00:08:39] [SPEAKER_00]: through their career to get to a place where they are held as leaders.

[00:08:45] [SPEAKER_00]: However, I think that there is also some

[00:08:50] [SPEAKER_00]: ageism amongst peers.

[00:08:52] [SPEAKER_00]: There can be someone who is a leader and executive leader, for example,

[00:08:58] [SPEAKER_00]: who might feel that a certain department that's doing a lot of things

[00:09:02] [SPEAKER_00]: manually don't have a lot of longevity within the company because,

[00:09:06] [SPEAKER_00]: oh, well, next year we're going to move that function to all beyond

[00:09:11] [SPEAKER_00]: line.

[00:09:12] [SPEAKER_00]: And not necessarily think that those folks who have been doing this work

[00:09:16] [SPEAKER_00]: for many years are able to elevate their game to manage something

[00:09:22] [SPEAKER_00]: a little differently.

[00:09:25] [SPEAKER_00]: So they might only be maybe five, ten years apart in age.

[00:09:29] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think that it can also be a taboo topic.

[00:09:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And so I think what often can happen is someone who might be falling

[00:09:41] [SPEAKER_00]: into the ages and trap, may not even realize it because they might be

[00:09:48] [SPEAKER_00]: making some assumptions and stereotypes about certain individuals

[00:09:53] [SPEAKER_00]: without necessarily understanding the facts.

[00:09:58] [SPEAKER_00]: So to answer your question, I think the majority of them are probably

[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_00]: closer to a retirement age, Gen X, maybe older,

[00:10:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Gen Y millennials.

[00:10:11] [SPEAKER_00]: But I think that it's kind of happening on both ends here.

[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_01]: So talk me off the ledge because I want to say two things that

[00:10:23] [SPEAKER_01]: you're both kind of disagree with on some level.

[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_01]: This is code for closure ears.

[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_01]: If you're not, not you sense it.

[00:10:30] [SPEAKER_01]: So I want you both of you.

[00:10:32] [SPEAKER_01]: I want you to close your eyes for a moment and think of a forest.

[00:10:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Any forest doesn't matter.

[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_01]: It might head in.

[00:10:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And I just yell.

[00:10:42] [SPEAKER_01]: So in that forest is young trees and old trees and little seedlings

[00:10:48] [SPEAKER_01]: and all that stuff.

[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Old trees die, new trees that give them the space and the light in which

[00:10:56] [SPEAKER_01]: to grow.

[00:10:58] [SPEAKER_01]: OK, so now I'll tell you the two things you could up your

[00:11:00] [SPEAKER_01]: ears.

[00:11:01] [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like it was just on a retreat somewhere.

[00:11:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:11:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Like our couples retreat.

[00:11:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.

[00:11:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:11:09] [SPEAKER_01]: There you go.

[00:11:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Where are you went?

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_01]: That escalated quickly.

[00:11:16] [SPEAKER_01]: So I must say age is a music good thing.

[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'll tell you why.

[00:11:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's a good thing.

[00:11:22] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm pro-ajers for the moment and until you'll talk me out of it.

[00:11:28] [SPEAKER_01]: The main reason that we used to keep older people around

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_01]: was institutional knowledge.

[00:11:36] [SPEAKER_01]: There were things in the organization not written down.

[00:11:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And you needed Bob or Sally to stay because they had all of this

[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_01]: knowledge that you needed to get out.

[00:11:50] [SPEAKER_01]: So they needed to make the same mistakes twice or you could learn from it, whatever.

[00:11:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Well with business moving as fast as it is today, you don't need institutional knowledge.

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Meaning it's overrated.

[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_01]: What we did in our five years ago?

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Who cares?

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_01]: What we did five years ago is what are we going to do next 90 days?

[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_01]: So institutional knowledge is not as important as it once was.

[00:12:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's point one point two.

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_01]: As you age, most people become entitled.

[00:12:26] [SPEAKER_01]: They feel like they've earned it and they're in lies the rub.

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_01]: They feel like they've earned something and you haven't earned anything.

[00:12:38] [SPEAKER_01]: If you don't invest, if you're 50 or 55 or 65 or 65, wherever you want to start wherever

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_01]: you're going to land.

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_01]: If you're not continually learning and not being entitled, people are going to keep your

[00:12:53] [SPEAKER_01]: around because you're relevant.

[00:12:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Meaning the onus is not on the company.

[00:12:58] [SPEAKER_01]: The onus is on the individual to be relevant because no one's going to kick out someone

[00:13:05] [SPEAKER_01]: that's relevant.

[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_01]: There are just pruning branches that aren't relevant anymore.

[00:13:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Four.

[00:13:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Four.

[00:13:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Four.

[00:13:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Two points.

[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_01]: What did I get wrong?

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I'll let you take it because I agree.

[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Half.

[00:13:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I agree with both of those points but I think that they support continuing to fight

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_00]: ages as a, as getting in the way of organizational success as opposed to supporting

[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_00]: in.

[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Here's my argument.

[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_00]: I really see your point here around institutional knowledge and you're right with the way

[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_00]: technology is moving in the way the fast-paced world we live in.

[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Even like just think of pre-COVID post-COVID, there's so many changes that have occurred

[00:13:58] [SPEAKER_00]: that there isn't a reason to continue to revisit that institutional knowledge when you've

[00:14:03] [SPEAKER_00]: had to reinvent things so much.

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_00]: That makes perfect sense.

[00:14:06] [SPEAKER_00]: But I do see value in what I will call maybe institutional soft skills or institutional

[00:14:18] [SPEAKER_00]: relationships.

[00:14:21] [SPEAKER_01]: What's your point?

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_00]: There are definitely some downsides to the way we work today and one of those is there

[00:14:35] [SPEAKER_00]: are some relationships while we're in person with one another.

[00:14:39] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that when you're in an organization, that is really challenging when you may

[00:14:44] [SPEAKER_00]: be working remotely.

[00:14:47] [SPEAKER_00]: When you are new to an organization maybe you're in your early 20s, you're right out

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_00]: of college and your first job is a hybrid work environment.

[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_00]: You're at home three days a week and maybe in the office two days a week but not everyone's

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_00]: in the office on those two days so you don't get that full experience.

[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that there is a lot of knowledge to be gained from people who have been working

[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_00]: in the workforce longer.

[00:15:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Whether that be a manufacturing plant, whether that be a corporate office, there's a level

[00:15:25] [SPEAKER_00]: of, I would say there's definitely a hurdle for younger generations to fully understand

[00:15:34] [SPEAKER_00]: how to build solid relationships and how they can affect your career trajectory and

[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_00]: how they can also affect just getting worked on on a daily basis.

[00:15:45] [SPEAKER_00]: I think about a couple different scenarios of like, you know, I had to develop a relationship

[00:15:49] [SPEAKER_00]: with another business partner, you're a colleague within an HR team so that they could

[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_00]: give me what I needed to get my work done or so that I could give them what they needed

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_00]: to be effective.

[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And that doesn't just happen overnight.

[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, you really got to kind of build those relationships and I think that soft skills

[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_00]: are really something that we can talk about with that definition as soft skills are definitely

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_00]: something lacking.

[00:16:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Is that congruent with the, I have to, uh, Gen Z sons?

[00:16:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Is that congruent with the way that they would create relationships?

[00:16:27] [SPEAKER_01]: It could be that.

[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_02]: That's where I fall on in the argument, right?

[00:16:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Is it congruent with them?

[00:16:35] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it can be.

[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know that it is as much as we want it to be.

[00:16:41] [SPEAKER_02]: We, the collective, we hear.

[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_02]: One A to B.

[00:16:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Victoria and we.

[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, right.

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I struggle with this because I'm again, I feel like I'm 20, right?

[00:16:55] [SPEAKER_02]: But I'm kind of at that age where I'm like, okay, you're like, you, I'm going to say this

[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_02]: now somebody will pull it out if anyone listens.

[00:17:02] [SPEAKER_02]: So we'll pull it out in three or four years and say, you said you were not relevant anymore

[00:17:08] [SPEAKER_02]: because you, you've aged out.

[00:17:10] [SPEAKER_02]: But I feel like I'm aging out.

[00:17:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Like I really feel like if I were to go back into a corporate environment, I would not,

[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_02]: I would be able to because I, your age would be, your age would be here.

[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_01]: They're in here.

[00:17:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Your relevance would be here.

[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Like I'm relevant because I study, I learn.

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_02]: We do all this up.

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm here, right?

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Like I'm down here with these P.

[00:17:37] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm opposite way of your thing.

[00:17:39] [SPEAKER_02]: But I'm with the others that are younger, more relevant in because they're learning

[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_02]: and living it as they're learning it.

[00:17:47] [SPEAKER_02]: But my age is up here.

[00:17:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And what I expect of those people here is very different than what they expect of me

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_02]: and how they actually give a crap about me.

[00:17:59] [SPEAKER_02]: They look at me as, oh, he's the old guy trying to be cool.

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Like my kids think it's amazing.

[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Like they think it's hilarious.

[00:18:08] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm amazing.

[00:18:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Hilarious and weird that on certain social, certain social platforms, I have a following.

[00:18:16] [SPEAKER_02]: They don't understand that.

[00:18:18] [SPEAKER_02]: They're like, why?

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_02]: What do you do?

[00:18:20] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not dancing on TikTok.

[00:18:22] [SPEAKER_02]: No, right?

[00:18:23] [SPEAKER_02]: But in this space that we are, there's a relevance and it's not to them.

[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_02]: And so that's where I struggle.

[00:18:30] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's okay for us to say, you know what?

[00:18:34] [SPEAKER_02]: We're experienced.

[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_02]: It's okay for us to move on into life and do something else rather than fit into that

[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_02]: corporate culture with the 20 and 30-year-old person.

[00:18:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, and I think relevancy is really relative in a way, right?

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_00]: So when you think about how your kids view you, it's going to be very different than

[00:18:58] [SPEAKER_00]: how a 22-year-old out of college in your workplace is going to view you.

[00:19:04] [SPEAKER_00]: They're definitely going to see you more as that guiding light and that someone who can

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_00]: help them, maybe it's a mentor, type relationship or even just, hey, I'm here to kind

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_00]: of make sure you don't step in a big pile up.

[00:19:19] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, like really just making sure that you can kind of, and I think that's like,

[00:19:24] [SPEAKER_00]: ultimately the point I'm getting at is that I do see where institutional knowledge was something

[00:19:31] [SPEAKER_00]: that someone who is further along in their career can offer.

[00:19:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I think now it's really that ability to mentor and maybe fill in some of those gaps

[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_00]: that our kids these days just simply aren't learning because of the environment that we're in.

[00:19:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you see it though.

[00:19:54] [SPEAKER_00]: It may not be relevant, right?

[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_02]: It may keep every team keeps better in leadership in the locker room.

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think we need a better term than mentor.

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_01]: I'll tell you why for both parties to get what they need out of this relationship,

[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_01]: it's got to be too way.

[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And most men to the way that we've kind of grew up thinking about mentor, it was top down.

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:20:17] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to your, I'm in tour, your mentee.

[00:20:20] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to tell you shit, you're going to learn.

[00:20:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, that's it.

[00:20:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think if we reframe that relationship as you mentioned a second ago,

[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_01]: if we reframe that relationship to tour,

[00:20:31] [SPEAKER_01]: it's like, oh no, we're going to be partners.

[00:20:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, I'm not worth some stuff from you.

[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_01]: You're 22, you just got to college.

[00:20:37] [SPEAKER_01]: You got some new things.

[00:20:39] [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't know those things.

[00:20:41] [SPEAKER_01]: I've been in this business for 25 years.

[00:20:43] [SPEAKER_01]: You need to know some of those things.

[00:20:44] [SPEAKER_01]: All right.

[00:20:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_01]: That was for over a sleigh.

[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_01]: That was have some fun and take that, the stigma of the word mentor out.

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Take you to take that further.

[00:20:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, okay, so let's look at that in 100% agree with you.

[00:21:00] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm 100% in on that both feet.

[00:21:03] [SPEAKER_02]: But a 55 or a 60 year old employee reporting to a 24 year old midline manager

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_02]: who started the company four years ago.

[00:21:16] [SPEAKER_02]: How does that work?

[00:21:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, I've seen it work.

[00:21:19] [SPEAKER_02]: I've seen it not work.

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_01]: I did it when I was 17 years old.

[00:21:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I always work and I've seen it not work.

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Here's how it works.

[00:21:28] [SPEAKER_01]: If your competent,

[00:21:31] [SPEAKER_01]: here's where that breaks down.

[00:21:33] [SPEAKER_01]: It comes down to competency, it comes down to the work, they output, etc.

[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Skills.

[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I remember taking over at Walmart.

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_01]: I took over the assistant manager, I took over Sporty goods and hardware, a bunch of kind of

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_01]: departments where there's a lot of older men that were working.

[00:21:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And at first, they're kind of stand-offish like who is this young buck,

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, the study and the other.

[00:21:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And I gained their trust by working 120 hours a week.

[00:22:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Like I just had to work them.

[00:22:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't try to, you know, I didn't, I didn't try to tell them what to do.

[00:22:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I just did it.

[00:22:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And then I probably only took a month and there was a site, man.

[00:22:15] [SPEAKER_01]: You kill it, man.

[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_01]: You're doing great stuff.

[00:22:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, hey, we're a team.

[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_01]: So I deflected all that stuff back.

[00:22:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[00:22:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Two of them and just said, hey, we're a team.

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_01]: So we gotta get this department right.

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_01]: We all got to work together.

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_01]: So competence, communication.

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, there's ways to make that work and you've seen it.

[00:22:36] [SPEAKER_01]: We've all seen it.

[00:22:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Lauren, how do you, when you do audits?

[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Get back to the business business.

[00:22:44] [SPEAKER_01]: When you do audits, how do you know if they're doing this well or if it's a problem?

[00:22:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Good question.

[00:22:53] [SPEAKER_00]: You don't have?

[00:22:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, the good news is there's a lot of laws and regulations out there

[00:22:58] [SPEAKER_00]: that help us with the guard.

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_00]: But the bad news is, there's a lot of laws and regulations.

[00:23:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think you can ask how much of what you do is guided by the laws and regulations

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_02]: as opposed to your experience.

[00:23:11] [SPEAKER_00]: You could say there, you know, I would say they're fairly equal.

[00:23:17] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, the laws, regulations, best practices.

[00:23:21] [SPEAKER_00]: It's really what kind of creates the guard rails.

[00:23:23] [SPEAKER_00]: And then we create a bit of the art of this comes in.

[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Is the experience that me and my team have had?

[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, we personally, I've been it, you know, a lot of large employers throughout my career.

[00:23:34] [SPEAKER_00]: And they've been global, you know, international, you know, employers.

[00:23:38] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's been, you know, I've got exposed to a lot of different things that not every HR person

[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_00]: in every HR world across the country has had the opportunity to experience.

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And so that's where the, you know, the science is really around the guard rails that you kind

[00:23:55] [SPEAKER_00]: of are just put in place because of the laws.

[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_00]: But then, you know, it's really the experience to kind of add the color and fills in the rest of the picture.

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, what we like to do is really kind of, you know, take the approach of, okay,

[00:24:10] [SPEAKER_00]: what are you doing well?

[00:24:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Let's start there.

[00:24:12] [SPEAKER_00]: And how can we build upon that?

[00:24:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And then if there's areas where you're not doing so great, usually it's not because you're doing it absolutely wrong,

[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_00]: like maliciously, it's just because you don't know.

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_00]: You don't know that there's a law in Albuquerque requires this idea.

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Right, they're getting the problem around.

[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_01]: That's a good point.

[00:24:34] [SPEAKER_01]: That's going to be a good point.

[00:24:35] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's, you know, the audits and, you know, and even the process improvements that we do,

[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, all of our process improvement recommendations come from standard best practices,

[00:24:46] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, also wanting to keep within compliance.

[00:24:49] [SPEAKER_00]: But also, you know, what have we seen work in our past?

[00:24:52] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, when haven't we and I think that's the beauty of, you know, the team that I have is not only

[00:24:58] [SPEAKER_00]: can I leverage my experiences, but I can leverage theirs.

[00:25:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's also the beauty that our clients have access to and you get to,

[00:25:06] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, you might be working for a company that employs 250 people.

[00:25:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm your, you know, interim HR director who's going to be with you guys for three months,

[00:25:16] [SPEAKER_00]: while we're helping you search or your, your recruiting team searching for the permanent replacement.

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's, you get access to the thought process of someone who's worked at larger companies

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_00]: for free.

[00:25:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Really, that's the bonus of this.

[00:25:31] [SPEAKER_00]: You're paying for our hours to do the work, but then you get to kind of pick our brain.

[00:25:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And then I, you know, I think I think that might be why I really love what I do and maybe why

[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_00]: I feel so passionate about fighting ageism is like, I do think that there's a lot of lessons to be

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_00]: learned and a lot of experiences to be shared.

[00:25:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that, you know, everyone, everyone deserves a level of relevancy in what they're doing.

[00:25:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I want to go back to one of the things you said very early on is about assumptions.

[00:26:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And again, correctly where I get to work at this wrong, but it seems to me that assumptions are

[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_01]: to a street. If you're younger and you assume that that person can't keep up,

[00:26:14] [SPEAKER_01]: you're assuming that if you're older and you're, you have an assumption about young talent

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_01]: that maybe they want to do things, or digital, or they want to do things, they want to take shortcuts.

[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And you're making that assumption. It seems to me that assumptions are the underlying enemy

[00:26:37] [SPEAKER_01]: here that we have to, and it's could be, we could, we're talking about ages of but we could

[00:26:42] [SPEAKER_01]: talk about racism, sexism, we know when all theisms, if we wanted to. But it just seems like

[00:26:48] [SPEAKER_01]: there's a great teachable moment on both sides. Again, I'm going back to it's really easy to kind

[00:26:56] [SPEAKER_01]: of blame the company. And super easy. But I think that's, I think that the individual has some

[00:27:05] [SPEAKER_01]: responsibility in this as well. For sure. So what do you think, what do you what's your take on

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_01]: assumptions and how do you help folks kind of reconfigure their minds around what is,

[00:27:17] [SPEAKER_01]: is and how they destroy assumptions, et cetera? Yeah, you know, these assumptions and biases

[00:27:23] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, were happening consciously and subconsciously. And what we've done through some of the

[00:27:35] [SPEAKER_00]: training courses to the different topics that are of importance. And so some of the things we

[00:27:41] [SPEAKER_00]: like to do is a lot of role playing, as well as a lot of providing examples. And because I think

[00:27:50] [SPEAKER_00]: that there can be just some really straightforward situations where you might be someone who's

[00:27:55] [SPEAKER_00]: making an assumption just because like you said, this person can't keep up physically.

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Right. You know, that that may be true, you know, maybe there are some facts behind that.

[00:28:07] [SPEAKER_00]: But not every statement that someone makes is absolutely factual and there are laws in this

[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_00]: country that you know, prevent you from discriminating against someone who might have a physical

[00:28:19] [SPEAKER_00]: disability or impairment. And so I think it's just, you know, assumptions and bias, you know,

[00:28:26] [SPEAKER_00]: whenever we can, you know, bring that up in the clients that we work with to really think through

[00:28:32] [SPEAKER_00]: what does that look like in a given day in your organization? Let's talk through the common

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_00]: scenarios that your employees are facing. And then let's put cool into that. What what areas of

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_00]: that scenario could bias creep in? And this is generally speaking not just with ageism,

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_00]: but where can that creep in? And let's build, you know, training and or policies and or,

[00:29:00] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, open door conversations around that as opposed to focusing maybe on a component of

[00:29:08] [SPEAKER_00]: ages and that really is an applicable to your specific organization. But I agree with you assumptions,

[00:29:14] [SPEAKER_00]: biases are at the core of almost every employee relations issue. But that is not fair.

[00:29:26] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's, it's hard to overcome. We have them. We've been taught them and we make a lot of assumptions

[00:29:36] [SPEAKER_00]: just because we don't like to ask a lot of questions for a long time they've been swept under

[00:29:42] [SPEAKER_02]: the rug and people just moved on and went about their day. I've got a question around

[00:29:48] [SPEAKER_02]: technology in this process. A lot of things that we talk about in HR, whether it be engagement

[00:29:58] [SPEAKER_02]: or compliance or, you know, throw a dart hit something in M&K. It can be managed with technology

[00:30:06] [SPEAKER_02]: and intervene by human for quality, right? Is ageism, does ageism fall into that? Is there

[00:30:13] [SPEAKER_02]: a tech out there? And I'm asking because one, I don't know. But two, I really just don't,

[00:30:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I know, I don't know. I've never followed up before. I've just always been nice to people.

[00:30:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Is there a technology out there or can this be managed by technology? This whole

[00:30:28] [SPEAKER_01]: can under my guidance? I gotta take on that as well. The Lord, there I go. So I,

[00:30:34] [SPEAKER_02]: the older crowd run the technology is the question. What I'm seeing?

[00:30:43] [SPEAKER_00]: So I believe that this is a subject that is nuanced and my take is that technology can get us

[00:30:54] [SPEAKER_00]: part of the way there, but not all the way there. There is. There are different tools and

[00:31:02] [SPEAKER_00]: resources that are out there that could potentially help with combating ageism, fighting ageism,

[00:31:10] [SPEAKER_00]: training to help leaders spot ageism in a better way. Definitely, you know, I'm sure there

[00:31:19] [SPEAKER_00]: someone who's creating something right now that, you know, it's going to be out next week. Bye.

[00:31:24] [SPEAKER_00]: I do think that in these sticky, like nuanced, you know, facets of just being human,

[00:31:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I do believe that having people who can make sense of an algorithm or make sense of a

[00:31:49] [SPEAKER_00]: more beneficial than relying heavily on on tech in this aspect. I give you one of your

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_00]: instrumental to a different story, but right now I feel like that's what we're at. Just because I've

[00:32:00] [SPEAKER_01]: actually thought deeply about this subject, I'm going to not disagree with you, but just modify

[00:32:05] [SPEAKER_01]: what you're saying. You can audit performance management, internal mobility, compensation and your

[00:32:12] [SPEAKER_01]: ideas based on demographic data and you'll know if you have a problem or not. So you don't need

[00:32:18] [SPEAKER_01]: another piece of technology or a little bit that could be something that goes into those times

[00:32:24] [SPEAKER_01]: and real time and understands is there a disproportionate something happening that we should know about,

[00:32:30] [SPEAKER_01]: whether that's gender or age or race or any sexual orientation or any of those types of things.

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_01]: But that data's already there. Like we don't need another tool. Good God. Yeah, I don't need more

[00:32:42] [SPEAKER_02]: time. No, it's there. The data's in, then that ties into learning like a whisk or something like that.

[00:32:48] [SPEAKER_02]: On demand, training being served up. But if you want to know if you have a problem which is

[00:32:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Lord, you know, Lauren deals with this every day in her business. If you want to know you have

[00:32:59] [SPEAKER_01]: an old problem, you can do that in a week. I can find that just by looking in those systems

[00:33:05] [SPEAKER_01]: and to see who's getting promoted, who's getting the compensation that's coming in the ATS

[00:33:11] [SPEAKER_00]: pipeline, who's making it through? You can absolutely measure it tactically like that.

[00:33:19] [SPEAKER_00]: But what those resources and those tools and the systems and that data won't measure is

[00:33:26] [SPEAKER_00]: opinion, believe. That's where I think the nuance is like, yeah, I can definitely determine

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_00]: that I have a gender pay gap situation. I can determine that we've promoted in the last eight

[00:33:40] [SPEAKER_00]: people we've promoted have been under the age of 30. Those are facts that I can't support.

[00:33:46] [SPEAKER_01]: It becomes a game of what do you do exactly? What do you do with that data? That's human,

[00:33:51] [SPEAKER_01]: and that's human right now. That's human. As you're saying that I'm thinking of a tool like a

[00:33:58] [SPEAKER_02]: higher logic, for example, when you're measuring interviewing and you're going through a system

[00:34:07] [SPEAKER_02]: like you're interviewing and the system's pulling back notes and red flags and saying, hey,

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_02]: here's a trend we're seeing. Every once under the age of 24, you're asking these questions

[00:34:19] [SPEAKER_02]: that are relevant up to scale. It's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. And I think the point it too is

[00:34:29] [SPEAKER_00]: is really around any data analytics that you're kind of pulling is what do you do with that

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_00]: information? When that red flag goes off in the system, it's like then what? And I think that

[00:34:39] [SPEAKER_00]: that is where the human intervention, where expertise we're training is really going to

[00:34:46] [SPEAKER_00]: bridge the gap. I don't see that leaving anytime soon. Whereas it may have left maybe some

[00:34:54] [SPEAKER_00]: aspects of HR because now we feel really confident with the way the system is set up or the data is

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_00]: not changes this week. We got to do in the system. This is one of those topics among many that

[00:35:10] [SPEAKER_00]: are a couple of relations, you know, situation that just requires that. Yeah, once you get the data

[00:35:16] [SPEAKER_01]: back and you identify there's a manager that's just not promoting people over the age of 40.

[00:35:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Well then you can go and have that one on one and talk them through do some training, et cetera.

[00:35:28] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm fighting ages them personally by only having 20 years of work experience and like that.

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's cool. I delete everything prior to 2000 there's nothing there.

[00:35:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Now what do you get? What do you get? What are you doing?

[00:35:48] [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't matter. It's not real. Why would you ask that question, Lauren?

[00:35:54] [SPEAKER_01]: It's irrelevant. What I was doing, I interned at the Smithsonian twice. Okay, real relevant.

[00:36:00] [SPEAKER_01]: The wall, yes, that was a special experience but it is irrelevant. And so every

[00:36:07] [SPEAKER_01]: every I look at the five and so when it gets to be 2025 I'm going to delete all the 22,000

[00:36:13] [SPEAKER_01]: five. I'll always have just 20 years of experience. Now right or wrong I'm just doing it as

[00:36:20] [SPEAKER_01]: just because I can but I want to get kind of a take on a horror story that you either have been through

[00:36:30] [SPEAKER_01]: or heard without brands. No, tell us the difference. At times you always take away the fun part.

[00:36:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh no, no, no, no. No, no. No, that's not the point it's really what I love about

[00:36:45] [SPEAKER_01]: the way that you do situational stuff and scenarios and walk people through, the training of

[00:36:52] [SPEAKER_01]: putting people into that some of those are based in those horror stories that happened.

[00:36:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And so you've clearly seen something's ageism at play. But the most egregious is what I want.

[00:37:06] [SPEAKER_01]: The one not not nuanced. The one that's not agreed. I want it to be the most egregious one that

[00:37:12] [SPEAKER_01]: you can remember. Mr. Cruz guy was you cross bows off the. So I'll tell you why I'm asking

[00:37:20] [SPEAKER_01]: the question when COVID first started and the layoffs happened at the end of 2020. Like that

[00:37:29] [SPEAKER_01]: massive layoff that happened it disproportionately impacted women and specifically black women

[00:37:37] [SPEAKER_01]: African American women. Now why did that? Well, like who made that decision without looking at data?

[00:37:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Like without looking down and saying hey, well we're laying off 10,000 employees and nine,

[00:37:51] [SPEAKER_01]: thousand of them are women. You know, so I could see that with ages up to. I could see someone

[00:37:58] [SPEAKER_01]: doing this and looking down and say okay everybody over the age of 55. That matter what they do

[00:38:05] [SPEAKER_01]: matter what the department is just they have high salaries. We need to make the cuts. I can see

[00:38:11] [SPEAKER_01]: someone I could not blame finance. I could see someone in finance basically making that decision.

[00:38:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Say yeah cut. Yeah, even though it's against law. Yeah. So you're spot on on kind of how these things

[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_00]: go down there should be more of a checks and balance in place because you don't need

[00:38:33] [SPEAKER_00]: disproportionately affect one type of employee versus another. Right. And that's that's even just a

[00:38:39] [SPEAKER_00]: legal opinion too from any employment attorney out there. But also you know I think the most

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_00]: egregious situation that I've been a part of and unfortunately there's been more than one common theme

[00:38:58] [SPEAKER_00]: is meeting to create more sacrificial lambs in order to take out the individual as you need to take

[00:39:05] [SPEAKER_01]: out so that you don't know. Oh, I see that's well the clever dark way. So you're trying to get

[00:39:14] [SPEAKER_01]: rid of Bob but instead of getting rid of Bob you down side the department Bob's in. You down

[00:39:20] [SPEAKER_00]: the department or you're like okay the average age of the five people we're firing today is

[00:39:27] [SPEAKER_00]: over 40. Right. We need two young individuals to figure to the track the average down or we need

[00:39:37] [SPEAKER_00]: a unprotected class of the mix so we can fire this protective class. Now this is a fun roll to be in.

[00:39:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh man. No. I wish we had started the podcast here. We can we can shift this to this.

[00:39:57] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a fun. Let me mark the time. Do you think do you think find that snow in the

[00:40:16] [SPEAKER_02]: bit. No. They know them when when council comes down and say hey, what do you do? All right so

[00:40:24] [SPEAKER_01]: these things just explain the risk yes we can do it how here's the risk. It's a right this is yeah.

[00:40:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. Outside of corporate okay I'm thinking professional sports teams right. Okay. Running back

[00:40:38] [SPEAKER_02]: becomes 30 years old. They immediately become the next name on that cut list.

[00:40:45] [SPEAKER_02]: You're right. When the next draft comes up so I understand this. Yes. Now this has been

[00:40:51] [SPEAKER_02]: run this way since the beginning of sports right? They become 30 they're no longer as fast.

[00:40:57] [SPEAKER_02]: They can't take a beating as much okay same could be said for the person at home depot.

[00:41:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. Now they're 55 they can't climb the ladder to the top wrong. Right? They can't get to the top

[00:41:08] [SPEAKER_02]: shelf. Why is it different in professional sports independent contractors? Yeah I was going to say

[00:41:14] [SPEAKER_00]: free agency and they get paid a lot of money during that first handful. Well they do.

[00:41:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah they right. They do. They do. They're independent how the league gets away with it all leagues

[00:41:26] [SPEAKER_01]: but they're doing good wages in part of it. Oh no. This is a middle college as well.

[00:41:32] [SPEAKER_01]: It's in all sports but live that's not just football all sports agencies. I mean if you can't

[00:41:38] [SPEAKER_01]: there's already a crop of people that are coming up that can do it better than you. Right. Yeah.

[00:41:45] [SPEAKER_01]: So and you're not a contractor then you and they're an independent contractor. Right. So

[00:41:50] [SPEAKER_00]: that's really yeah it's just the distinction between the two but the know that the issue is

[00:41:55] [SPEAKER_00]: based of it still exists and it still is what it is. It's just it's no one cares because the

[00:42:02] [SPEAKER_00]: lost on apply. Right. So it is an independent but you know it is it is worth noting that

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_00]: you know it is a sports is such a physical you know it's just physical it's and we all know

[00:42:17] [SPEAKER_00]: that our bodies break down your rare time over to you know it's just the way it kind of is. It's different

[00:42:25] [SPEAKER_00]: in that in that realm and you can also get away with it with you know the independent contractors

[00:42:30] [SPEAKER_00]: you might have in a corporate office. You know there's an advantage to having 1099 versus W2

[00:42:37] [SPEAKER_00]: in a lot of ways and that's one of them is if you do want to let somebody go for a reason that

[00:42:44] [SPEAKER_00]: isn't on the up and up you can easily do that with an independent contractor you can't do that

[00:42:48] [SPEAKER_01]: because it makes well the boys have right but no they can't away with it yeah yeah.

[00:42:55] [SPEAKER_01]: This has been fantastic Lauren thank you so much for coming on the show and school us

[00:43:00] [SPEAKER_00]: and we're done already it's just been great yeah I was quite so fast thank you I appreciate it

[00:43:06] [SPEAKER_01]: very very well Ryan are we gonna do the laugh track at the end so we know that it's the end

[00:43:11] [SPEAKER_01]: no we would just it stop