Conflict in the Workplace: When Conversations are Uncomfortable w/Janet Harvey CEO inviteCHANGE

[00:00:00] If it is not acceptable for me to say no to a request you make of me, my yes has no

[00:00:09] integrity.

[00:00:10] Oh, that's great.

[00:00:14] And what happens in the workplace is we defer to stature, power, influence and we think to

[00:00:22] ourselves we can't say no, that there would be a career limiting move or I might get fired

[00:00:29] or I won't get the next plummet assignment.

[00:00:31] Whatever it is we tell ourselves inside our head.

[00:00:33] But the problem is if we say yes and we don't stay in the conversation to find out what are

[00:00:38] the conditions of success or satisfaction, I'm going to start down a road and I'm just

[00:00:43] made a formula for failure.

[00:00:45] All right.

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[00:01:26] Hey, this is William Kipkeff, Ryan Larry and you are listening to the You Should Know podcast.

[00:01:31] We've got Janet on today and we've got a great topic.

[00:01:34] I can't wait for this.

[00:01:36] So Janet, we've been talking about your art.

[00:01:39] So let's go ahead and do some introductions.

[00:01:41] Would you do us a favor and introduce yourself to the audience?

[00:01:44] Sure.

[00:01:45] And be happy to do that.

[00:01:46] And maybe in a less traditional way because he probably got my bio posted someplace, right?

[00:01:51] Yes.

[00:01:53] You know, part of my work has always been about bringing people back home to themselves,

[00:01:57] to the true self, to the essence of who they are.

[00:02:00] And one of the ways we do that is to help them to curate the essence traits of who they

[00:02:05] are.

[00:02:06] So I'm going to tell you what my essence statement is.

[00:02:09] I am alchemical seer.

[00:02:12] Okay.

[00:02:13] Sovereign, radiant love, black pearl beauty, savvy sassy generous expression, writing

[00:02:19] on the winds of joy.

[00:02:22] How do you beat that, Ryan?

[00:02:23] Can you beat that?

[00:02:24] You can't beat that, right?

[00:02:25] I don't know.

[00:02:26] I can't beat that.

[00:02:27] I don't even know what mine is.

[00:02:29] Yeah, I was thinking like...

[00:02:31] I'm afraid.

[00:02:32] Yeah.

[00:02:33] That's an awesome introduction.

[00:02:34] Can you tell me what mine is?

[00:02:37] I could reflect back to you some traits that I experienced of you, but ultimately

[00:02:42] only you can answer that question, right?

[00:02:45] Everybody has an experience of you.

[00:02:46] We rarely know what it is unless we ask somebody to do it.

[00:02:50] And that's often a part of the process, right?

[00:02:53] Ask three people.

[00:02:54] If you could name three or four traits that you associate with me, what would those

[00:02:59] be?

[00:03:00] And that would be a place for you to start.

[00:03:02] That is so awesome.

[00:03:04] I'm not sure I want to start there though.

[00:03:07] Yeah, no.

[00:03:08] You might find this as a gender thing, Janet, or not, but it might be just Ryan and

[00:03:15] I, but I'm terrified.

[00:03:18] I will tell you, most people start there and then they are moved by extraordinary

[00:03:24] reflections that come back.

[00:03:26] People in your life love you and they really actually appreciate being given the

[00:03:31] opportunity to reflect back who you've been in their lives.

[00:03:35] That's insane.

[00:03:36] That's insane.

[00:03:38] But I know what you're talking about because I usually see it a little bit dark, but

[00:03:44] I usually see it at funerals.

[00:03:46] Yeah, that's right.

[00:03:47] And boy, isn't that just sad that we store our entire adult life and not know how

[00:03:53] much you meant to somebody or not know that there were other people like when

[00:03:57] my father passed in 21, there were people that showed up.

[00:04:01] And this was during COVID-ish.

[00:04:04] There were people that showed up to his funeral that I would have never, ever

[00:04:07] expected.

[00:04:08] And I mean it was during COVID.

[00:04:10] So you had the chairs.

[00:04:11] I had to be all spaced out and kind of it was an inconvenience quote unquote.

[00:04:15] And so, but it was a trip to just kind of, I mean, I met everybody that came and it

[00:04:22] was just interesting.

[00:04:23] Like some people, yeah, yeah, check.

[00:04:26] I knew that they'd be there, et cetera, but like there was a ton of people in

[00:04:30] the room that were like he must have impacted them in some way because

[00:04:33] you were.

[00:04:34] It's impact.

[00:04:36] You know, I suspect you have many people in your audience who have never told

[00:04:41] you how important and valuable having the cadence of a regular program from

[00:04:46] you with useful content is their lives.

[00:04:50] And I had somebody enroll in one of our programs two days ago who said,

[00:04:56] I have been following you since 2015.

[00:04:59] I've watched every YouTube.

[00:05:01] I've watched your TEDx.

[00:05:02] I've read both your books.

[00:05:04] I anytime you are anywhere in the world on a webinar, I am listening and I knew

[00:05:08] someday I'd be in your course room.

[00:05:11] Wow.

[00:05:13] That's humbling.

[00:05:15] Oh my gosh, I was a little overwhelming, right?

[00:05:18] Right.

[00:05:19] Here's Ryan.

[00:05:20] Nice to difference between the two is Ryan said that's humbling and I was

[00:05:22] thinking can I ask, can I borrow between bucks?

[00:05:24] I wouldn't obviously, but you're right.

[00:05:30] You're right.

[00:05:31] Like I'm thinking back to time spent 100 years ago when I was real young

[00:05:36] in Midland, Texas.

[00:05:38] And I didn't grow up.

[00:05:40] I grew up with two older brothers.

[00:05:41] So I didn't grow up.

[00:05:42] I didn't know how to iron.

[00:05:43] And I had to go to this thing where you had to have a, I had, I had a

[00:05:47] button shirts and stuff like that, but I didn't know how to iron my,

[00:05:51] my rendition of ironing was throw the shirt in a dryer with like a wet

[00:05:57] wash rag and then take it out really quickly and it was wired.

[00:06:01] That's pretty good.

[00:06:02] It works.

[00:06:03] It works.

[00:06:04] But my best friend that I, that I met in Midland, he taught me how to

[00:06:10] iron.

[00:06:11] But now we drink a lot of gin and so there was, I'm not sure if it was

[00:06:18] just the irony, but one night we had an irony, irony.

[00:06:22] I had gotten so good because we're competitive.

[00:06:25] I got so good that I challenged him to an iron off.

[00:06:28] Yeah.

[00:06:29] And so we drank a bottle of gin and we, we ironed shirts.

[00:06:33] You're not gaining any cool points here, you know, no, no.

[00:06:38] He's redefining cool Ryan.

[00:06:40] Come on.

[00:06:41] That was an 80 or 88.

[00:06:46] I can still iron to this day.

[00:06:48] You give me a shirt.

[00:06:49] I can iron it.

[00:06:50] I can iron it.

[00:06:51] I can iron it so well.

[00:06:53] Yeah.

[00:06:54] What are you doing with your can of starch?

[00:06:56] You're not gaining any cool points here.

[00:06:58] No, no.

[00:06:59] Well, he's redefining cool Ryan.

[00:07:01] Come on.

[00:07:02] Yeah.

[00:07:03] Yeah.

[00:07:04] And I can iron it when I get to the can of starch.

[00:07:07] There might be three or four kids that starts involved, but I

[00:07:10] can make a stand up.

[00:07:11] Anyhow, we have a wonderful topic to discuss with you and

[00:07:15] it starts with tension at work.

[00:07:18] So in your travels and in your studies, et cetera.

[00:07:22] What have you seen with tension at work?

[00:07:24] So I always think it's important to know what a speaker's

[00:07:28] bias is.

[00:07:29] there, which is, you know, obviously I have a birthmark on my face. So I've had that experience

[00:07:35] from very young, conflict and tension and discomfort and different all those things.

[00:07:44] I'm also quite fortunate to have had a great education and I'm smart. That also creates

[00:07:50] conflict and tension and discomfort. And I'll never forget a wonderful

[00:07:57] boss I had by the name of Beth Sowie. I went into her one day and I said,

[00:08:01] I'm so tired of people saying they're intimidated by me. They don't even bother to get to know me.

[00:08:06] Like if my heart is like a mushball, what is this? Sometimes I wish I could just be stupid.

[00:08:13] Look at me right across the desk and said, don't you ever say that again?

[00:08:17] Yeah. No, there's, well, stupid people, stupid people technically don't know they're stupid.

[00:08:22] Beyond that. That's a different issue for a different day.

[00:08:26] Yeah, and a good one. I will take you up on that. Okay. What I learned from what she said to me was

[00:08:32] that I can only be responsible for myself. When I'm sensitive and paying attention to the

[00:08:40] influence and the impact I'm having on other people, I can accept responsibility to behave

[00:08:45] differently. We all have the ability to flex and to adjust and to adapt because the relationship's

[00:08:52] important to us or it's not. Right. In which case we don't have a right to step on someone else's dignity

[00:08:57] or be disrespectful, right? We make a decision to walk away from it. Have you ever,

[00:09:04] Janet started in a row? That's okay. But have you ever played down your starts?

[00:09:09] No. Never? Wow. I don't know what to do.

[00:09:13] That is awesome. That is great. It's unusual. Now, why I've asked the question is there's a lot of

[00:09:20] people that I've seen, I don't know, different tactics, but they basically play it down. They

[00:09:27] don't play it up, but they don't insert themselves in the way that they could when you have them

[00:09:32] in a different conversation. Yeah. And all of a sudden you're one-on-one with them and

[00:09:36] they're just like lights out smart. It's like we were just in a group meeting and you

[00:09:41] Yeah, you were quiet. What's up? Yeah, you were quiet. Well, why was that? And so I'm curious about

[00:09:47] I was just curious about that. Well, so not too much of a tangent really, this notion of

[00:09:53] we want a psychologically safe environment and I love Amy Evans's work and Dr. Tim Clark,

[00:09:59] but it's rear of your mirror. They're trying to diagnose something symptomatically and apply

[00:10:06] a solution to it. And so my bias is conflict is not a bad thing. When we remember that the reason

[00:10:13] conflict surfaces is because something in the current environment no longer satisfies. Now,

[00:10:21] I've said that rather generically, but think for a moment. You didn't like the date you had at

[00:10:28] the prom. You don't ask her out again. Again, you don't like your boss. You go to them and

[00:10:34] say, I want something different to happen. Or you complain to your colleague and you ultimately leave

[00:10:41] because there's a values conflict going on. And it's all invisible because it's an inside job.

[00:10:48] We then built a whole industry around conflict management.

[00:10:52] We're keeping all of the attention on the conflict. We're not paying attention to actually what

[00:10:57] stimulated the conflict in the first place, which and here's the great punchline,

[00:11:02] the seed of innovation, the exact creativity and ingenuity we want in the organization comes

[00:11:08] out of the conflict. I've said this for years around the where the reason you want the

[00:11:17] isn't the reason that you think you want the so all the all the stuff that surface like

[00:11:23] that's kind of a cotton candy-esque type of stuff like okay, we want racial gender and

[00:11:29] this and the other. And that's all great. And you can stay there if you'd like, but what

[00:11:34] that diversity actually creates is conflict and conflict creates innovation. Innovation

[00:11:40] creates market share, profit, etc., etc., etc. So this is as a capitalist. I don't understand

[00:11:46] how other capitalists don't understand the fundamentals like it has nothing to do with

[00:11:50] race and it can. Right. Yes, we can in civility for sure. But that's an advanced state

[00:11:58] of the conflict, right? Yes. If we had a different relationship to it, which is why I use the word

[00:12:03] tension instead of conflict because yes, tension is a sensory experience without all the overlay.

[00:12:10] Right. And if we can learn to pay attention that our attention has been moved to something

[00:12:17] and then ask the question before we react, what's the reason is catching my attention?

[00:12:23] And what am I believing about that? What's the evidence about that? Does it support or is it

[00:12:31] my old story? Do I have a habit or a preference or an assumption or a bias that has me caught in

[00:12:37] seeing this situation at something other than what it is. And if I can't see it,

[00:12:44] who is in this sphere of influence in this system that I could ask and find out,

[00:12:50] are you experiencing it like this? Is this what's going on? Because most of the time the answer is no.

[00:12:56] And then we know it's our work to resolve. It's an internal history that has us caught in something

[00:13:02] and conflict where no conflict exists. Right. And if a conflict does exist, now I can be clear.

[00:13:08] I can sit down with somebody and say, I'm realizing that I've been having this reaction.

[00:13:13] I don't really know where it's coming from. I want to know your point of view that has

[00:13:17] us at odds with each other. The act of asking the question activates imagination

[00:13:23] and it builds relationship. Now we have collaboration. So this is a really important

[00:13:29] stance for leaders to adopt and to get comfortable that they're not going to know today's world is

[00:13:35] way too complex, too much uncertainty and chaos to void themselves of the relationship

[00:13:42] that can help them learn. How does somebody else see it? What's beyond my habit and preference

[00:13:47] that's more suited to what's actually occurring in the environment?

[00:13:52] Janet, do you see trust as a driver to conflict between employees and leadership?

[00:14:01] And I ask that because we recently have had some conversations around trust.

[00:14:06] And as I think back to when I was in the corporate setting, there was a lot of distrust

[00:14:15] and it just drove me away. And this might be a flaw of mine. I didn't have the energy

[00:14:23] to really deal with it. And I just said, this is for me. And I moved on. And so my

[00:14:30] want for not having conflict caused me to leave. And I left for good and then went back

[00:14:39] to any corporate job. That was it. I was just done. And I kind of broke up with it,

[00:14:43] divorced it and moved on. But I just wonder, do you see that as a foundation for a lot of

[00:14:50] the conflict that doesn't happen or does happen? It may depend on how you and I are

[00:14:56] articulating what we mean by trust. And I think this is an often studied space.

[00:15:04] And we hide behind trust. Like word without asking each other.

[00:15:09] What does that mean?

[00:15:10] But behaviorally, how would we be being with each other if we were trustworthy in our

[00:15:15] relationship? Things like reliability, consistency, right, congruence between word and deed.

[00:15:24] These are much more meaningful to create a relationship that will sustain.

[00:15:29] And I'm going to tell you the most important one. If it is not acceptable to you that I say no,

[00:15:35] when I say yes, it has no integrity. Say that again. Let me make sure I get it.

[00:15:41] If it is not acceptable for me to say no to a request you make of me,

[00:15:47] my yes has no integrity.

[00:15:50] Oh, that's great.

[00:15:52] And what happens in the workplace is we defer to stature, power, influence.

[00:16:00] And we think to ourselves, we can't say no. That there would be a career limiting move or I

[00:16:07] might get fired or I won't get the next plummet assignment. Whatever it is, we tell ourselves

[00:16:11] inside our head. But the problem is if we say yes and we don't stay in the conversation to find

[00:16:16] out what are the conditions of success or satisfaction, I'm going to start down a road

[00:16:21] and I'm just made a formula for failure.

[00:16:24] Right. And how much of that is in my head as opposed to being in reality?

[00:16:29] Exactly.

[00:16:30] Right.

[00:16:31] Relationship that allows for compassionate honesty and some directness and recognizing

[00:16:38] that you're you, I'm me. We have a shared purpose.

[00:16:42] Right.

[00:16:43] Let's focus there first and then say to each other what is our highest and best contribution to

[00:16:48] this shared purpose? And we might decide ultimately as you did, Ryan.

[00:16:53] Nope. I have a values conflict here. You have a point of view I cannot subscribe to

[00:16:57] and we walk away from it. But all too often people walk away under the guise of mistrust

[00:17:03] and they just repeat the pattern when they go to the next company.

[00:17:06] As he has here.

[00:17:07] Right.

[00:17:08] Yeah.

[00:17:11] I love you too.

[00:17:11] I believe it stimulates that.

[00:17:12] Sorry.

[00:17:16] Well, good thing you can play mediator today. Let's talk.

[00:17:21] How do you teach leaders?

[00:17:23] Because Ryan said at the pre-show what we've been taught,

[00:17:27] you know, for generations at least is conflict or tension as we're talking about.

[00:17:34] Top it's bad. That's not that's not something you want your marriage.

[00:17:38] That's not something you want in relationships. It's not something you want to work.

[00:17:41] It's like what can we do to avoid it at all costs, etc. So how do we go back and rewire

[00:17:48] corporate America and especially leadership to then say actually

[00:17:54] How do we breathe conflict?

[00:17:56] Yeah. You've been taught incorrectly. You actually should want a certain level of tension

[00:18:03] and so how do we teach them to be better at tension?

[00:18:08] Yeah.

[00:18:09] I'm not so sure it's a teach. It might be helping them learn to notice

[00:18:15] to listen interiorly to the meaning they're making of it.

[00:18:19] This is often where I'm going to start with someone and, you know,

[00:18:23] we had a lot of debate about the title of the book that just released from tension to

[00:18:28] transformation and you'll probably won't surprise you in the book.

[00:18:32] I talk about transformation is kind of an off to use word and really misunderstood that

[00:18:38] I want to break it down really simple and say transform meaning we have a form and we're going

[00:18:45] to transit from that form to a new form. It's as simple as that. That's all we're doing.

[00:18:51] So when are we intellectually at least, when are we not transforming?

[00:18:57] We're always transforming.

[00:18:59] Okay.

[00:19:00] Practically, pragmatically.

[00:19:01] That's just something drives me crazy when people talk about change management and

[00:19:05] transformation. I'm like, do you mean that there's a static state that I'm not aware of?

[00:19:11] Because I'd like to be in that state sometimes and just be planted there because I believe,

[00:19:15] I mean it's fluid. It's mercury.

[00:19:17] And we're always seeking, you know, some of our neurobiology is struck this way

[00:19:25] to keep us safe that if we can get something that's familiar and comfortable, we want more of that.

[00:19:30] So we filter our experience in order to stay in that status quo.

[00:19:35] Only the environment is non-static.

[00:19:36] So to your point, everything around me is changing.

[00:19:40] If I'm not adapting, I'm going to be left behind and ultimately be in discomfort.

[00:19:44] The dinosaurs will get you.

[00:19:47] And this is how most people change.

[00:19:48] They have an accident.

[00:19:49] They have a tragedy.

[00:19:50] They have a crisis.

[00:19:52] Their organization has a crisis.

[00:19:54] And that gives them a moment to pause and reflect and say, what matters to me?

[00:19:58] One can say the pandemic has done this.

[00:20:01] Yes, I was about to ask you.

[00:20:02] Or leadership.

[00:20:04] And some leadership responded to the pandemic with,

[00:20:08] let's get back to normal as quick as we can.

[00:20:12] As I wrote in my first book, which I released in 2020, I said the year of no return.

[00:20:16] We fundamentally had a moment when the world hit pause.

[00:20:21] All 8 billion on us.

[00:20:22] We all hit pause at the same time and said, do I really need to spend 4 hours commuting every day?

[00:20:30] Is this really the work that fills my heart, that has me express my purpose in the world?

[00:20:36] Am I really getting the time with my family that I want?

[00:20:39] And we've been reconfiguring our way of being in a livelihood ever since.

[00:20:45] It's not done yet.

[00:20:46] The latest data on CEO turnover, we've dropped from average of 12 years to 3.8.

[00:20:52] 4 years.

[00:20:54] Average 10 year I was CEO.

[00:20:55] Wow.

[00:20:56] Right?

[00:20:57] So there's a lot of...

[00:20:58] Did it reach 3.4?

[00:20:59] Yeah, that's the average.

[00:21:02] There's a lot of fundamentals that are shifting right now.

[00:21:05] And I think that I would enter trust, Ryan, first from the self-trust point of view.

[00:21:13] So many of us in our professional lives were highly rewarded for figuring out what somebody

[00:21:18] wanted from us and delivering on it.

[00:21:21] Deliver, deliver, produce, produce, do it on time, do it faster, do it quicker.

[00:21:25] Less resources, all of those wonderful mantras.

[00:21:28] Some of that's a mixture of Pavlovian but also being...

[00:21:33] Being seeking other people's approval.

[00:21:35] Yes, exactly.

[00:21:36] So my identity and my self-worth is coming from the external.

[00:21:42] Until you have one of those sandpaper moments in life and realize,

[00:21:47] I'm so not happy.

[00:21:48] That's right.

[00:21:49] That's right.

[00:21:50] And we start to come back home to ourselves.

[00:21:52] So if we can help leaders start to inventory, where are you living out of the top of your

[00:21:59] license?

[00:22:00] Out of your best self?

[00:22:01] Out of the part of view that is effortless?

[00:22:04] It can be genuine and present at any place, anywhere, anytime.

[00:22:09] Oh, I couldn't possibly do that.

[00:22:10] All right.

[00:22:11] Well, that's the place you're starting.

[00:22:12] Not right.

[00:22:13] Not wrong.

[00:22:14] It's just where you're starting.

[00:22:16] Imagine if in this situation, you could bring your sense of humor or take the example you gave.

[00:22:24] Imagine, colleague, if in that meeting, you even spoke of one time to share your brilliance,

[00:22:31] what might be different and the opportunities you have.

[00:22:35] Yeah.

[00:22:35] So we start where it's practical and pragmatic and relevant to the role

[00:22:40] that the way you're operating no longer produces the results you want.

[00:22:44] Am I right?

[00:22:46] Yeah, that's right.

[00:22:47] I'm not happy with the result.

[00:22:49] What actions are creating that result?

[00:22:51] How did you decide those actions?

[00:22:53] What was the principle or the foundational value?

[00:22:56] What was the basis of deciding that?

[00:22:58] What had you believing that that was the right basis for the situation?

[00:23:04] And the last step in reflection is what's the data or relationship that you dismissed,

[00:23:10] deferred, or in some way said wasn't relevant?

[00:23:15] And had you paid attention to it, would have set in motion a completely different motivation

[00:23:20] and a completely different basis?

[00:23:23] Now I don't stop there.

[00:23:25] I do one more round of deeper reflection to help them start to see where do you have

[00:23:30] a habit of going to these two people and you leave the other four members of your team out?

[00:23:35] Where do you have a preference to partner with that colleague?

[00:23:39] And as a result, you run into roadblocks and resistance because other people in the

[00:23:43] organization don't know what the heck you're up to.

[00:23:46] Where do you make assumptions?

[00:23:47] Now what people are capable of or whether they'll endorse what you want to do?

[00:23:52] Where do you have a bias that's out of date with what's actually going on?

[00:23:56] So what am I doing?

[00:23:57] I'm having them pull back and open the camera lens a little bit and look

[00:24:01] systemically, not just vertically in their own function or in their own sense of identity.

[00:24:06] And then and only then do they go, all right, now that I'm aware,

[00:24:11] this would be the belief that would be a lot more useful.

[00:24:15] These would be the reasons we would probably would pursue that.

[00:24:17] And boy, does that open up the options of what actions we can take.

[00:24:22] We can't predict what new result will happen, but it certainly will be different

[00:24:26] than the last one that had come out of an unconscious habit and visually operating

[00:24:31] because that's what we've always done.

[00:24:33] So if we attack people for staying in the status quo, they hold on tighter.

[00:24:39] If we can help them to start to describe what are you experiencing in that thought process,

[00:24:47] how satisfying is it? It's not. We've started the change process even in that simple question.

[00:24:53] So that's why I say I don't think it's so much training as it is reflection

[00:24:57] and claim and declare. What is it that you want to have shift?

[00:25:02] Which begs the question are all

[00:25:07] I'll say all humans, but I'm really talking about leaders or all leaders.

[00:25:10] Do they have the capacity to be reflective?

[00:25:13] Yes, it's a human trait.

[00:25:15] So we have the capacity.

[00:25:17] You have the capacity. Yep.

[00:25:18] Okay, but it's like a muscle that you might or might not use.

[00:25:21] Yeah, that's right. That's exactly right.

[00:25:23] I think actually it's reflection is the process,

[00:25:27] but the feel for the 21st century is discernment.

[00:25:31] Right.

[00:25:32] Right.

[00:25:32] And you might know that I did a TEDx on the subject of judgment.

[00:25:37] And the reason I did that is, if you look at the promise of DEI,

[00:25:41] it's all coming out of stopping judgmental.

[00:25:45] Hang on a second.

[00:25:47] If we conflate judgmental and judgment, we are making the discernment of what's

[00:25:53] actually happening here and what is it that's activating me to have a reaction here.

[00:25:59] We're short circuiting all of that.

[00:26:02] And it's no wonder we can't make it work because we're all about the breakdown.

[00:26:05] Instead of what you said a few minutes ago, which is innovation and creativity,

[00:26:10] and therefore the thriving opportunity in your business is going to come out of the

[00:26:14] diversity, not the similarity.

[00:26:17] Right.

[00:26:18] Right.

[00:26:19] Right.

[00:26:19] You got something?

[00:26:20] So much to unpack there.

[00:26:22] That is a ridiculous amount of information.

[00:26:25] So a couple things come to mind and I don't want to go backwards,

[00:26:29] but shortly ago you said they need to take notice.

[00:26:34] Use the word notice and I jotted that down real quick.

[00:26:39] I want to go deeper there.

[00:26:41] Talk about that a little bit because I'm not sure that I got it at first,

[00:26:45] but when you said it, I felt it.

[00:26:47] I felt like, oh, notice.

[00:26:49] Like just notice, but I want to understand what you mean by that.

[00:26:53] Absolutely.

[00:26:54] So do you like to go to the beach?

[00:26:57] I do know.

[00:26:59] I like going down there.

[00:27:01] I don't like sitting on the beach.

[00:27:03] A bad day at the beach is better than a good day somewhere else.

[00:27:05] Yeah.

[00:27:06] Yes.

[00:27:06] Yeah.

[00:27:07] Right.

[00:27:08] So let's say that Ryan's walking the beach and William's standing with you.

[00:27:12] He's getting in a beach.

[00:27:13] I love the beach for this situation.

[00:27:15] Both worlds are fine.

[00:27:16] So if you can, take your attention interiorly for a moment and put

[00:27:23] yourself on a beach.

[00:27:24] Some recent experience.

[00:27:26] Notice probably the first sensory experience you have is the sound of the wave coming in and out.

[00:27:33] It's a rhythm.

[00:27:34] Right?

[00:27:34] You can hear the water rise up on the beach and you can hear it go back out.

[00:27:39] You probably next hear seagulls or pelicans depending on where you are on the planet.

[00:27:47] You probably then recognize that there's a salt.

[00:27:53] There's a salt.

[00:27:55] There's a sodium smell to that water and that's gotten activated.

[00:28:01] If you walk into the water, you now feel the tide come up against your body, cold,

[00:28:08] and it goes back out.

[00:28:10] And now you feel the wind and the wind against the wet leg as opposed to the wind

[00:28:15] against the part of you that is dry.

[00:28:17] You might even feel some of the sand losing its place underneath your feet as the tide has gone back out.

[00:28:26] I just took you through a sensory experience.

[00:28:28] That's right.

[00:28:29] You just went through all the senses.

[00:28:30] All of that is noticing.

[00:28:32] We are noticing or not attention to it.

[00:28:36] We don't give it credence.

[00:28:38] This is what meditation is all about in the opposite way.

[00:28:42] So we're noticing meaning we're archiving those things as they're happening,

[00:28:48] but what we're not either activating is whether or not those things are happening.

[00:28:53] Yes, that's exactly right.

[00:28:55] Okay, that tracks for me.

[00:28:58] And so now you're in a meeting.

[00:29:01] I'm a leader and I've got my team around the table

[00:29:04] and I'm paying attention to the presentation I'm giving.

[00:29:09] And I completely miss that two of my team members are on their phones.

[00:29:16] Somebody else is rolling their eyes and making loud noises like they're completely bored.

[00:29:23] Somebody else is leaning forward being good students.

[00:29:26] Sure.

[00:29:26] That's seen in one of the Indiana Jones movies where she blinks her eyelashes.

[00:29:31] I love it.

[00:29:32] Oh yeah, signaling.

[00:29:35] As a leader, I'm so wrapped up in me presenting that I have no kind of...

[00:29:40] I'm not even paying attention to that.

[00:29:41] Right?

[00:29:42] I don't notice it.

[00:29:43] Now this is an egregious example I'm giving you.

[00:29:46] It's often in the daily life of work.

[00:29:49] Much more nuanced.

[00:29:50] Much more nuanced.

[00:29:51] And we can be, we can have an active incivility and not know it because people will not speak about it.

[00:29:59] We haven't created the conditions.

[00:30:02] And this is a leader's job to create the conditions for people to feel welcome,

[00:30:06] to speak their mind, to be themselves.

[00:30:10] Right.

[00:30:10] We don't train this.

[00:30:12] This is a place where I think training is important.

[00:30:15] We're not building this skill set.

[00:30:16] And it is to elevate discerning the emotional experience that someone is having

[00:30:24] with the transactional excellence that they got their job for in the first place.

[00:30:29] These need to be on a level playing field and right now...

[00:30:32] You're like this.

[00:30:33] I brought you in here to be the person that during the interview process we fell in love with

[00:30:39] and your experience and also your outspokenness, your opinions, your ideas, your creativity.

[00:30:46] You're in a meeting and you're zippered up and you're not giving me any of that.

[00:30:50] So actually we're not winning because of that.

[00:30:55] You got me thinking about getting your take on the movement and

[00:31:02] the way people talk about bringing your whole self to work.

[00:31:06] Now what's your...

[00:31:07] Because I have a take but I don't want to put my bias first.

[00:31:12] I'll definitely put it in but I don't want to put it first.

[00:31:15] What's your take on that?

[00:31:16] When you hear that from people, what do you think?

[00:31:19] Well, you can't not bring your whole self to work.

[00:31:23] The question is do you let anybody else see it?

[00:31:27] Yes.

[00:31:31] People are bringing that whole self but they're then deciding I can only really activate 60% of

[00:31:37] this or show people 60% of this or whatever that is.

[00:31:42] Now multi-generational workplaces have a real dickens of a time here because...

[00:31:48] My parents' generation put a very brick wall between personal and professional.

[00:31:56] My generation said, let's go fast.

[00:32:00] We brought a little more of our personal in.

[00:32:02] We had boundaries but we need to allow for a lighter sense of humor and letting people have a

[00:32:08] little more uniqueness.

[00:32:10] The next generation said, well this is crazy.

[00:32:14] My personal life matters more and I'm going to negotiate for what I want to be able to have

[00:32:19] what I want in my personal life even if it means that I might have to push a check on my

[00:32:23] professional career.

[00:32:25] Then there are some who said, no, no, no, my professional career is everything.

[00:32:29] And then they are burnout and they're in the revolving door of I'll find the next company

[00:32:34] to help me.

[00:32:36] Now they're out another generation and they're like, I'm not coming to work for you.

[00:32:40] Yes.

[00:32:42] And they are fueling the gig economy and Alpha is like, you guys have all lost your minds.

[00:32:50] The planet is burning and you're worried about a job?

[00:32:55] Right now we're obviously whitewashing and that's not a good thing to do but

[00:33:00] for example's purpose is not a singular answer to this question about wholeness at work.

[00:33:06] Wouldn't we all be better off if we knew what each other was thinking, what we believed

[00:33:11] of?

[00:33:12] That's where you got me Janet.

[00:33:18] I am such a dark person so if when someone asks me what I'm thinking I then clarify are you sure?

[00:33:31] I'm going to give you an out right here.

[00:33:32] You got a car, you play it.

[00:33:36] Because I might be thinking about how to dispose of a body.

[00:33:40] You sure you want to know?

[00:33:43] So but I don't think everyone's that way.

[00:33:46] I think more people are more attuned to what you're saying.

[00:33:49] It's like first of all you have to activate that and create safety and say, hey I care

[00:33:55] enough to ask you about what you're thinking.

[00:33:57] You have the freedom it's just us going to silence.

[00:34:01] Tell me what you're thinking.

[00:34:02] It would be helpful for me to know even if we disagree.

[00:34:06] And the cone of silence is an interesting insidious thing as well.

[00:34:10] I'm only going to tell you if you're going to keep it confidential.

[00:34:18] You're going to tell me all those great great stuff but we can't act on it?

[00:34:24] I think this usually, I think the way I've heard it used isn't about things that are

[00:34:29] positive. It's more the cone of silence around things.

[00:34:32] Exactly.

[00:34:33] All the more reasons you're saying that.

[00:34:34] I know, I know.

[00:34:35] I know.

[00:34:35] I know.

[00:34:35] I know.

[00:34:35] I know.

[00:34:35] The parents and we can address it.

[00:34:38] You're not wrong.

[00:34:38] You're not wrong.

[00:34:39] You're not wrong.

[00:34:40] Of course you're not wrong.

[00:34:41] I think that's a safety thing.

[00:34:43] Yeah back in the early days of coaching.

[00:34:46] And many people still subscribe to this so I'm sure you'll have some people in

[00:34:50] the audience who will go, she's crazy about this.

[00:34:53] But I have been a volunteer leader on the global level for ICF for very,

[00:34:59] very long time and I absolutely believe in the code of ethics and ethical conduct is important.

[00:35:04] Potentiality is a piece of that but we have to ask ourselves in service to what?

[00:35:09] My first responsibility is to the organization.

[00:35:12] What does the organization want to accomplish?

[00:35:15] How does this person or this team who is getting coaching contribute to what the

[00:35:20] organization wants and finds a thriving going concern which keeps that person and

[00:35:26] that team employed?

[00:35:28] My first obligation is to that.

[00:35:30] So if I have someone who tells me something confidential, my response to that is going

[00:35:35] to be what's the conversation to be having with your boss or with your colleague or

[00:35:40] with that person over there, whatever it might be because this is not going to

[00:35:44] resolve by having a conversation with me.

[00:35:47] Right.

[00:35:47] You've got to know how to have that conversation.

[00:35:49] I understand it's trapped.

[00:35:51] It's that knowledge or that what could make us better is trapped.

[00:35:55] And it's sealed up, right?

[00:35:58] Then it can't go over and be used to be helpful.

[00:36:01] And again, people think of the negative.

[00:36:03] It's like, well, let's take it to an extreme sexual harassment or something like that.

[00:36:09] You know, like, okay, so someone tells you something in confidence.

[00:36:14] Okay.

[00:36:15] All right.

[00:36:15] You can hear that but if you can't take action on it, how does that get better?

[00:36:19] Right.

[00:36:21] Right.

[00:36:21] Exactly right.

[00:36:22] It doesn't unless you break their trust and move all the way.

[00:36:27] Well, I think it's probably having conversation.

[00:36:29] I mean, Janet will be the expert here but I think it's more like coaching them

[00:36:34] and talking to them and being with them to then make sure the appropriate people know.

[00:36:38] Exactly.

[00:36:39] I'm not the person to resolve this for you person.

[00:36:42] Right.

[00:36:42] Right.

[00:36:43] Yeah.

[00:36:43] You know, I would have been as an ombudsman.

[00:36:45] We have an assistant program, right?

[00:36:47] Right.

[00:36:48] We have mechanisms to help people get the courage and strength necessary.

[00:36:52] I'll go with you.

[00:36:53] I'll go with you.

[00:36:54] Yeah.

[00:36:54] Like I can, I'll help.

[00:36:56] I'll walk down the, if we're not virtual, I'll walk down the hallway.

[00:37:00] We'll do it together.

[00:37:02] Silence.

[00:37:02] Right.

[00:37:02] You know, Janet, I would imagine that you get a lot in coaching people that want to

[00:37:10] kind of have those conversations with you, right?

[00:37:12] They just have an, they feel comfortable with you.

[00:37:14] Oh.

[00:37:14] They get comfortable.

[00:37:15] You know, you're like, then they start to talk and you're like,

[00:37:18] how do you, I'm always interested in this from a coaching perspective.

[00:37:23] How do you maintain being the coach but also have that trust factor, that feeling of trust

[00:37:34] from the employee back to you where they feel open enough?

[00:37:37] Because I would assume the fact that they're open enough or comfortable enough to feel

[00:37:42] that they can bring this to you is part of your goal to open those barriers.

[00:37:48] That's table stakes.

[00:37:52] So I think the openness.

[00:37:53] Table stakes is a great way to say it, but I think you're, you might be stepping over.

[00:37:57] There's a lot that goes into a coaching partnership working with somebody over time.

[00:38:04] There's a chemistry meeting during which both the coach and the person who's thinking about

[00:38:11] engaging a coach have a time to get to know each other.

[00:38:14] And you can feel energetically, if there's resonance, like this person

[00:38:18] finishes my sentences, we have an easy time laughing.

[00:38:22] We cast out saying some things that might be a little risky.

[00:38:25] How was it received?

[00:38:28] And then there is a usually a pretty lengthy discovery session that happens

[00:38:34] and during which you deepen how you get to know each other.

[00:38:37] There might be an assessment that's used.

[00:38:39] There might be some reflection questions.

[00:38:42] There might be some exercises.

[00:38:44] There's a development plan.

[00:38:46] What are we focusing on?

[00:38:47] What's your aspiration three to five years from now?

[00:38:50] What's keeping you from living that today?

[00:38:52] How do you see your strengths?

[00:38:54] What are the areas you want to strengthen?

[00:38:56] What do you want from your boss to support you in this process?

[00:38:59] What's the behavior that's the highest, like the acupuncture point to get you

[00:39:03] into exponential flow?

[00:39:05] Where do you want to focus your attention in our coaching?

[00:39:08] Is it with your team?

[00:39:09] Is it with your peers?

[00:39:10] So that what can happen?

[00:39:12] So this whole line of inquiry is designed to give the person time to claim and declare

[00:39:19] what's important to them.

[00:39:20] What are we addressing or resolving through the coaching partnership so that

[00:39:25] you can be better?

[00:39:26] It's the ownership that we authorize for them of the entire experience of coaching.

[00:39:34] And then they get to accept responsibility for how fast,

[00:39:36] how far, how deep, how often that occurs.

[00:39:40] That's a partnership that's constructed.

[00:39:42] Now I will tell you, not all coaching works the way I just described it.

[00:39:45] No, no, 100% sure.

[00:39:46] But that's the real promise of coaching comes when the individual is in the driver's seat.

[00:39:52] So you've been asked this probably a million times, but the line between therapy and coaching

[00:39:58] is what?

[00:40:00] Who has responsibility for the outcomes?

[00:40:04] Coaching is the individual therapy is the therapist.

[00:40:07] The clinician.

[00:40:09] And that's true on the other side.

[00:40:10] So if I put myself in the middle of a line, I'm coach.

[00:40:15] On the left hand side are all the clinical practices,

[00:40:19] social science based, counseling based, therapeutic based,

[00:40:24] psychiatrically based.

[00:40:25] Right?

[00:40:26] They have liability for diagnosis.

[00:40:30] And then responsibility for outcomes that occur.

[00:40:33] And they have liability insurance to go along with it.

[00:40:37] On this side, we have skills training, mentoring,

[00:40:43] pretty traditional supervision functions, consulting.

[00:40:48] All of these are people who have expert advice that they are transferring to that person.

[00:40:54] It's a superior subordinate relationship.

[00:40:56] They have accountability for the quality of the advice that they're giving.

[00:41:02] That's not what happens in coaching.

[00:41:04] That's right.

[00:41:04] Two adult peers coming together.

[00:41:07] The coach is responsible for a process and creating an environment that's conducive to a

[00:41:12] person doing learning, learning growth and change.

[00:41:15] And the client is responsible for how they engage with it and what they do with it after.

[00:41:20] I get a half an hour with them once a week.

[00:41:23] They got six days and 23 and a half hours to live their life.

[00:41:29] I can only influence in that 30 minutes that they might have a learning insight about

[00:41:34] themselves and make a commitment to themselves to choose differently.

[00:41:38] You know what I thought Ryan was going originally with this question was

[00:41:42] people that you interact with and your team interacts with,

[00:41:46] they say all the right things.

[00:41:48] They shake their head.

[00:41:50] They're agreeing with you, but they have either a problem or some type of conflict

[00:41:55] or any inability to then action it.

[00:41:59] So what do you, when you've...

[00:42:02] I actually, I love it.

[00:42:03] You know what you don't want to talk about, right?

[00:42:06] I know exactly what you're talking about.

[00:42:07] And you know, as we were talking about a little bit earlier,

[00:42:11] everybody starts from a different position.

[00:42:15] We all have different circumstances that bring us to a moment when we say,

[00:42:19] I want a thought partner.

[00:42:20] I want to sound bored.

[00:42:22] I want to coach whatever I might be.

[00:42:26] Wherever you start is where you start period.

[00:42:28] There's no right.

[00:42:29] There's no wrong.

[00:42:30] This is not a binary process.

[00:42:32] And the most value that a client gets is when they start to see,

[00:42:38] oh, I made a commitment last week in our session that I would do XYZ.

[00:42:44] And I realize I never thought about XYZ all week long

[00:42:49] to which I'm going to say, great.

[00:42:51] You noticed you didn't pay attention to it.

[00:42:54] What does that tell you about how you make commitments?

[00:42:57] What is it that you were evidencing when you made that commitment to yourself at the end of the session?

[00:43:05] And clients always say, well, you talked me into it.

[00:43:08] I said, really?

[00:43:10] That's interesting.

[00:43:11] How did you know that happened?

[00:43:13] At what point in the session did you let me talk you into something?

[00:43:16] Yeah.

[00:43:17] I said, you know, that's an easy out though.

[00:43:19] Yeah, realizing.

[00:43:19] I mean, that's an easy out to say you talk me into this when they really are saying

[00:43:24] you open my eyes, I then figured it out.

[00:43:28] And then yeah, I got that.

[00:43:30] And not doing it?

[00:43:32] Okay.

[00:43:33] You know what I really could have committed to because I thought I actually did last week

[00:43:38] was this, this and this.

[00:43:40] Okay, what's the difference between the two?

[00:43:42] How are you calibrating your rubric for making a decision about what choices you want to make?

[00:43:47] That's the value.

[00:43:49] That's the source of the change that's sustainable for them.

[00:43:53] Right.

[00:43:53] So much of this is marriage, marriage counseling.

[00:43:56] Are you getting, are you feeling like you can be a better husband now?

[00:44:00] I feel like I'm getting stared at.

[00:44:02] I'm going to go talk to my wife after this.

[00:44:10] First of all, I've made a lot of mistakes.

[00:44:11] I just want to.

[00:44:13] Why are you so happy you're coaching me?

[00:44:16] Oh, 100%.

[00:44:17] Well, you know, you've heard, I mean, this isn't new.

[00:44:19] You've heard this before.

[00:44:21] But what is, so why do you, why do you have leaders that say, you know, no, or they somehow don't get it?

[00:44:30] Like I'm thinking of the, in the sales process we call fear and certainty and doubt.

[00:44:33] Right.

[00:44:34] So at some point there's people say no to this.

[00:44:40] Right.

[00:44:40] And they'll, they'll say it.

[00:44:42] They don't have the budget or, you know, they'll use other kind of tactics.

[00:44:45] Right.

[00:44:45] But worry what they're saying is they don't want to be this vulnerable.

[00:44:48] They don't want to be this open.

[00:44:50] They don't want to, they don't want to be this reflective.

[00:44:52] They want to focus on other things, et cetera.

[00:44:54] So what do you do with those people?

[00:44:57] First of all, or do you just avoid them and just kind of move on to people that kind of get it?

[00:45:01] No, they're actually my favorite people to stay in conversation with because they're not actually

[00:45:06] rejecting the thing that they really want.

[00:45:09] Right.

[00:45:10] What they're saying is I haven't quite seen the value formula here.

[00:45:16] What will be different in my life when I make a commitment to make this change?

[00:45:21] Right.

[00:45:21] And until they can get to the aspirational vision that's bigger and more important than them,

[00:45:28] then the current safety of the identity they're operating out of, we're not moving.

[00:45:33] Right.

[00:45:33] And I'm not going to be successful coaching this person until they do that.

[00:45:36] Right.

[00:45:37] Yeah.

[00:45:37] So they're no good for you at this point anyhow.

[00:45:40] Exactly.

[00:45:40] As well.

[00:45:41] Well, Ryan goes to the gym a lot and so we joke, we made, we're not joking.

[00:45:45] We talk a lot about that and it's like until you're willing to make a change,

[00:45:50] you're not going to break a change.

[00:45:52] Yeah.

[00:45:53] I mean, I was probably in my mid 30s when I realized that giving advice to people

[00:45:58] that don't have an ask for my advice is a waste of my time.

[00:46:02] But it took me into my mid 30s.

[00:46:04] You can start again, Swet, yeah.

[00:46:06] It is.

[00:46:07] It is.

[00:46:07] Oh no.

[00:46:09] It is.

[00:46:10] It is.

[00:46:10] Oh no, 100%.

[00:46:11] I realized that I was in my swimming pool with my brother and I was giving him advice

[00:46:16] and then I realized he didn't ask me for my advice.

[00:46:21] And so I reoriented myself around I'm not going to give people unsolicited advice.

[00:46:27] Right.

[00:46:28] I'm going to wait until they say, William, what do you think?

[00:46:31] In the moment they say, William, what do you think?

[00:46:34] Now I got a chance.

[00:46:35] Thank you.

[00:46:36] Now I have a, now I've got an end.

[00:46:38] That doesn't mean anything will change.

[00:46:40] Well, so stay with that for a second because what you're,

[00:46:44] what you could do to morph that skill when they ask you what do you think is to say,

[00:46:49] what's bringing this to your attention right now?

[00:46:53] Nice.

[00:46:53] Stay in the learner stance.

[00:46:55] Right.

[00:46:56] Let them speak about what they're experiencing that's even asking,

[00:47:01] they're abandoning their own inner authority and asking you to live their life for them.

[00:47:06] Oh, that's great.

[00:47:07] I'm stealing, stealing now.

[00:47:08] That's fine now.

[00:47:09] If you ask me these questions, I know where it came from.

[00:47:12] I know it's not sincere so you can't do this to me.

[00:47:17] Oh no.

[00:47:19] I'm not mediating that.

[00:47:20] No, no, no, no, no, no.

[00:47:21] We're marking this at the 48 minute mark.

[00:47:26] I won't use it on you but it is such a great tool because you're absolutely right.

[00:47:32] It's instead of just jumping right in because I would normally and naturally just jump right into

[00:47:39] the advice.

[00:47:40] So instead of doing that, just hit pause and go, okay, why are we here?

[00:47:45] Why are you thinking this?

[00:47:46] Why are you asking me?

[00:47:47] What's driving that?

[00:47:48] How you become generative.

[00:47:51] This is what organizations need now because there's no way a leader can ever know

[00:47:55] everything there is to know about their before or what they're up to.

[00:47:58] It's not just now.

[00:47:59] That's never been like, I mean, it's never been the case.

[00:48:01] I'm more acute today because of the complexity.

[00:48:05] Right.

[00:48:07] Wow. Janet, this has been so fantastic.

[00:48:09] Thank you so much.

[00:48:10] Ryan, do you have anything else you'd like to say?

[00:48:12] I do not.

[00:48:12] I think this is a fantastic way to end.

[00:48:15] We may need a part two.

[00:48:17] Yeah, this is a part two.

[00:48:18] That would be my honor.

[00:48:18] I'd be delighted to come back.

[00:48:20] You both have been a joy to check with.

[00:48:23] Vice versa.

[00:48:23] Thank you so much for coming on the show and thanks everybody for listening.

[00:48:26] Ryan, you have the thing that you like to do at the end of the shows.

[00:48:29] Yeah, if you're still listening, subscribe.

[00:48:31] Like us everywhere.

[00:48:32] If you see us out in public, say hello.