Beyond the AI Smokescreen

[00:00:00] Two of our favorite podcasts are crossing over every two weeks. Kate Achille of Up Next at Work and George LaRock of WorkTech look at the tech, business, and people that impact our HR and work tech industry. It's a cross-talk with a unique strategic lens on what's happening in our world. Enjoy! Hey, Kate. Welcome back. Hey, George. How have you been? I've been good. I've been good. It's been a minute since we did this. We've been busy.

[00:00:29] busy and off traveling and all over the place. Yeah. Where have you been? Where have I been? Well, I went to Spain earlier this month. My daughter is studying. She's got us this semester, so she'll be there for a few more weeks. And we took the spring break as a chance to bring the family over. And we did Madrid and Barcelona and a lot of tapas. I ate a lot of patatas bravas.

[00:00:53] That was like, it kind of became a joke every meal. It was like we started with patatas bravas, which I was then jokingly calling buffalo potatoes, but that's really not. Anyhow, we did that. Saw a lot of gouty, a lot of art, a lot of culture as you do when you're on the continent. And it was a lot of fun. The weather was good.

[00:01:17] And before that, I was out at Transform in Vegas, which went really well. It was well attended. Everybody was smiling. The attendees were smiling. The exhibitors were smiling.

[00:01:31] I hope that the vibe and the experience there is a sign for things to come. And because we kind of go into a lull right now where there are a lot of smaller events, a lot of vendor events here. Well, we had HR Tech Europe. I wasn't there. But now we kind of we kind of wait for the big events in the fall. Anyhow, that went really well. I was impressed with how Transform has come along. What about you? Where have you been?

[00:01:59] I've pretty much been in New Jersey since you left me. Did make it into New York City earlier this week, though. I did attend the second ever HR Brew Talent 2030 collective event. I didn't get to stay for the entire day, but it was really cool.

[00:02:16] I thought it was very interesting the way that HR Brew set that up. Their whole editorial team was there moderating the various sessions. A number of vendors were there. A number of practitioners were there from a lot of really big companies.

[00:02:30] You know, they had like the, you know, the CHROs and chief people officers of companies like Sirius XM, Shark Ninja. I think EY was there. I like their somebody from their inclusion team. I saw Equifax was there. Greenhouse, Qualtrics, some of those folks.

[00:02:49] Okay. You know, I was joking with you earlier that, you know, North Korea kept coming up because of the candidate fraud topic, which was scaring in the audience a bit. I could see like visible cringing every time that North Korea was said. I counted five times in the span of like two hours.

[00:03:10] But obviously, you know, a lot of deep fakes are happening quite frequently for folks. So that was a very real topic. And, you know, Daniel Chait was talking about the AI doom loop, which also really I saw a visible reaction from the crowd when that happened. But, you know, it was really cool space. It was right by Rockefeller Center where they hosted it. And, you know, there's probably about 200 people in the room, standing room only. Oh, cool.

[00:03:35] And they, yeah, it was just really nice to get out and see something different, different format. It was also live streamed. So, you know, that's always nice for the folks who are not in the general New York City area like we are. I like HR Brew. You know, it's there. There are a lot of brews, right? There's like marketing brew, all sorts of this is one of the properties. But I like their coverage. You know, it's just it's easy. It's consumable. It's good.

[00:04:04] And I think you had said when we were talking before this that it's it's sort of a more progressive sort of younger crowd of HR people. And so that that's good that they're getting out and and supporting it. Yeah, they translated that to the event to the sessions were only about like 20 minutes long. So, you know, they kind of kind of took the same same approach to the event where, you know, they were quick conversations. So it was very interesting. And didn't you have like a competition or something or are you is that still coming up?

[00:04:33] Coming up, coming up next month. So I will keep everybody keep everybody posted on that one. But OK, yeah. I've got some breaking news here, Kate. Breaking. It just came in. So we didn't talk about this one, but I don't know if you're familiar with the PR news. Are you familiar with that? I am. I am familiar with PR news. They have named 2026's top women in PR and communications.

[00:05:02] And I was looking at the list and I recognized someone on the list. That's you. Congrats. Thank you. Thank you. Yes. My team was gracious enough to nominate me for that one. And that was that was quite nice. There are some very notable notable folks on that list, other colleagues of mine. So it was nice to be recognized for my efforts. I've been waiting the whole conversation. That was good you got me there. I was like, what happened?

[00:05:32] Because you never know in today's crazy world. So touche on that one. Well, congrats. Thank you. Thank you. Well deserved. Yes, I appreciate that. Which is not not quite as shipper and cheerful these days. Yeah. So there's been a lot going on. Obviously, in the last, you know, since we last spoke, we can't cover all of that. But I think the, you know, the big the big headline these days.

[00:06:01] And, you know, we're approaching the end of April as we're recording this is all the layoffs that are happening. And this week, those the top two, I think, were the announcements from Meta and Microsoft. Meta cutting 8000 positions and closing 6000 openings. Yeah. So that's about 10% of their workforce. And then Microsoft. That one's interesting because it's the first time they're ever doing this.

[00:06:28] But they're offering buyouts to 7% of their U.S. workforce. And I guess it's aimed at their longest serving employees. So those at the senior director level and those also whose age and years of service add up to 70 or more is my understanding. They're not the only two, but those are sort of the biggest that I've seen. Obviously, throughout the month, we've seen a number of other layoffs happen. You know, it's still April. So Oracle was still this month.

[00:06:56] Nike also had a layoff this month. That was their second of this year. They laid off 1400 on their tech team. G let almost 1000 people go. That's right. That's right. I think that was mostly sales ops and IT that was impacted there. So a lot happening on the layoff space. But I guess going back to Meta and Microsoft, those are those are kind of the two that I think we were going to focus on. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:07:21] And it's an interesting contrast because Microsoft being, you know, one of the original big tech companies buying these people out, at least they're offering a buyout. And I think by theoretically, I don't I mean, I haven't looked at their data or anything and I won't have access to it. But if you've got longer tenure, that buyouts probably pretty meaningful by focusing at the top.

[00:07:49] I'm not saying it's easy for these people or that it's a good thing. I'm just saying that it's it's a diff it's approach. It's an approach that says they put a little thought into how can they do this? And it's more human. It feels like. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:08:05] It's much better from a PR perspective, whereas Meta is the folks that are left are picking anyone that that remains is now going to be helping train their AI model.

[00:08:20] So the article that I sent you is the A.V. Club, who's very, very, you know, just snarky about this, that those employees that will retain are quietly having quotes, AI training dummies added to their list of duties. So it's it's you know, I think that that kind of speaks to employer brand internal, you know, you know, you're still here, but now you're going to have, you know, training a replacement.

[00:08:48] Exactly. Exactly. There you go. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Let's just cut to the chase. And I don't think Mark Zuckerberg has ever been known for his empathetic approach to leadership. I mean, obviously, this wasn't his you know, he wasn't the only one making this decision. He does get to take the fall for it, though, I think by virtue of the fact that he has been leading the company since its inception. But yeah, you know, the fact that they're also closing all of those open roles. Yeah. Tells you that they're they're not intending to grow either at this point.

[00:09:18] And this they did a sizable layoff last year, I think, too. Yeah, I feel like all of the big tech companies have been they've been laying off because of AI for about like 18 months now. And yeah, I think it's a it's a smokescreen. A lot of them and it's not just big tech. A lot of companies overhired after coming out of covid. And at this moment in time, it's say they still have the ability to blame AI.

[00:09:47] And I'm not saying there is an impact because of AI. I'm just saying all of these tens, hundreds of thousands of people, based on what we're seeing for adoption and the impact that AI is having and not having in organizations. It's it's really hard for me to to take that. And I don't think the market is going to accept that answer a year from now. So I think they're they're cutting while the cutting is good for them, if you will. It's not a good state of affairs.

[00:10:16] It's not. And I'm still waiting. You know, earlier in the conversation, there was this tale that I was going to create jobs and that narrative has completely disappeared. Like we don't hear that anymore, that I is helping support job creation. I don't hear that ever anymore because where are those jobs? Like, where are all these people who are being laid off going? Right. Right. I've only seen like individual, you know, a thought leader here or there have a perspective.

[00:10:44] And the challenge is that is based on we need to be optimistic at some level, like in order to keep our sanity. But it's based on, you know, looking at all of the changes that have happened before, the fact that this change is happening so fast and thinking, you know, we're going to evolve, you know, like like we did when we went to the steam engine or the printing press or what have you. But the only thing tangible that we have are these layoffs. So, yeah.

[00:11:14] And and and the fear is palpable in the workforce for sure. So I definitely. Yeah. I don't. And I don't see in other climates you would expect some kind of tone to be set by government or the regulatory bodies. But that's really not happening. We're not in that world at this time.

[00:11:38] So, you know, I I think there's going to be a big shift to skilled trades and places where you have to have a human. Mm hmm. For the time being, in order to do the work and they'll be augmented by A.I., you know, like understanding how to better approach a job or a project. I could see a phone based co-pilot helping with that or finding materials or schematics or what have you.

[00:12:06] But but yeah, I think it's we're in this like unknown. And I think we're going to see a lot more of this before we start to see the growth. Yeah, I did see an article and I don't have it in front of me right now at some point, you know, since we since we last spoke. And I want to say, you know, it was talking about how, you know, obviously there's a big trend right now with like Wagovi and Ozempic and all of that.

[00:12:31] And it was talking about how people there's a great need to have your clothes altered right now for people that are losing weight rapidly because you can't necessarily afford to buy a whole new wardrobe. And there's something there. I think there's only like 17,000 tailors left in the entire United States. Oh, wow. So that is like potentially a field that people can enter into because that's not a job that I can take over. Yeah.

[00:12:58] You know, tailoring is something that needs to be done by hand. And actually, anecdotally, there's a someone just opened a like custom tailoring shop near my house where they're making suits and they're making, you know, they're doing that sort of work. And I thought that was kind of kind of cool because, again, if if you're someone who, you know, has gone through that sort of a transformation and, you know, really likes the clothes they already owned. Why would you go out and replace all of it? But, you know, you would need to find somebody to fix it for you.

[00:13:26] That's not a skill most of us have. You know, I can sew a button, but I certainly can't do anything beyond anything beyond that. Well, I am the offspring of a union electrician and too much to his, you know, he's he's no longer with us, but he tried to get me into the trade. And no, no way. I would just wanted nothing. I just it was it was more about me not wanting to do what he did. And my mother was a seamstress.

[00:13:56] She made bridal gowns. She ended up having her own bridal shop like she, you know, and so I had access to both of the skill, like skilled, you know, trades and the skill that you're talking about. Nope. Here I am, you know, battling AI. Two of the most in demand trades right now. And you're out here talking about AI. I cannot sew a button. I cannot sew a button. Well, that's pretty funny. Well, you know, you mentioned regulatory. Yes.

[00:14:26] The regulatory need potentially. And that actually brings us to a major shift that took place here in the current administration this week. And that's the changeover at the Department of Labor. Sure. And I bring that up because I think, you know, the current acting secretary of labor is a name that's very familiar to a lot of people in our space. And that's Keith Sonderling. Yeah. Yeah. So he has stepped in and is, I guess, you know, we don't know how long he's going to be acting. Acting. Yeah.

[00:14:54] You know, from the coverage that I've read and, you know, I read a couple of articles. No one was named by the White House as a source. But the anonymous source from the White House basically said it's unclear if he is going to get the actual nomination. I think Mr. Sonderling is, I know he's fairly young. I think he's only like, you know, early 40s. But he is apparently been doing a lot of the work himself since he was reappointed in the second Trump administration.

[00:15:23] Because he served in the first administration. His term expired under Biden. And then he stepped back in. But I did learn something very interesting in that he is not just the acting secretary of the Department of Labor. He is also the acting head of the Institute of Museum and Library Services. That's I wonder if that's just because they needed one or because because he has some special, you know, proficiency or expertise there. I have no idea.

[00:15:49] But I bring this up because, you know, I know that Keith has spoken a lot about artificial intelligence over the last few years at some industry events. Yeah, I that's how I met him. It's so weird. Like, it's weird for me to see someone in the news like that in that position. And I've had a call with him. Right. So it's it's funny for me, but really nice guy seemed, you know, and I met him at maybe two HR techs ago.

[00:16:18] He was really active. That was the way it was presented. He was personally making an effort to get out and meet the tech vendors that were driving some of these changes. You know, he served under, you know, a couple of administrations now. I know I talked to somebody that grew up with them and speaks so highly of him. And, you know, I he seems like a really level headed, you know, earnest. I guess he's not a politician, but. Yeah. Lawyer by training. Lawyer.

[00:16:48] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I guess they the anonymous source that was quoted here says he may lack the cachet, I guess, that the administration typically looks for in like a cabinet level position. But he is believed to be the steadiest option. So to the point you just made, you know, a very earnest person. And obviously he has been doing this now for about 10 years. Yeah.

[00:17:13] And I mean, based on what I what I can't begin to project what that administration should or shouldn't do or predict. But it seems like steady would be a good thing. It seems like that would be like. Steady would be a good thing. Yeah. Headlines that just came out of the Department of Labor. And he was not he was distanced from all of that. His name. I was always curious. His name never came up. Not that he would be involved in any of the seedy stuff that was going on or or allegedly going on.

[00:17:42] But but he was distanced from it. Yeah. Apparently, he's been the one doing the actual work. Yeah, that's that's that's what the all the articles I've read say. But yeah, I mean, given the fact that he has made a conscious effort to learn about artificial intelligence and how it's being built and how it's being applied. Hello, I'm Ruth Thomas, host of Comp and Coffee, where we break down what's next in the world of compensation management. From pay transparency to performance alignment.

[00:18:12] We explore how businesses are rethinking compensation to drive impact, equity and growth. So if you're shaping the future of pay at your organization, grab a cup and tune in. Listen on the Work Defined podcast network. From a tech perspective. And now he has an opportunity maybe to shape policy in a meaningful way.

[00:18:33] I would I'll be curious to see what happens here, because we could we could use some regulatory guidance at a federal level, I think, at this juncture, given what's what's happening from a workforce perspective. And what may or may not be coming to our world from these A.I. Frontier players. I'm trying to segue to the next topic. Yeah, no, no, you're doing a great job. You're doing a fantastic job on that. So, yeah, I guess let's let's get into that one. So stay with me on this.

[00:19:03] So CNBC put out an article with a it's very provocative headline, as good headlines these days will be. It's perspective. A.I. demand is inflated and only anthropic is being realistic. So what that what the article you can go find the article and read it for yourselves. But we've been living in this world of massive A.I. consumption.

[00:19:28] And when you think about it, you're either using it for free or you're paying 20 bucks a month or as an enterprise. You know, you've got a different model, but it's that kind of value. The value sort of extends the way I've described it before is these big A.I. shops are basically subsidizing their growth. Right. So that the cost of delivering the A.I.

[00:19:52] to any given user, whether you measure that with energy, you know, the power, compute power that's required. Think about these massive warehouses, these data centers, the cooling that needs to go on, the power that's needed to run them. Nobody's we're not paying them at that rate. Now, Anthropic announced that for the enterprise tier, they're going to start charging differently and it's going to be a more U.S.

[00:20:21] based just a headline hit for U.S. a more usage or consumption based model. So that's I feel like this may be the first sign of things to come. If you if you don't believe that that's the sign of things to come, then you believe that we'll solve the energy problems. We'll solve the compute power problems. We'll put data centers in space. The costs will go down and the economy will turn around. Go, go, go.

[00:20:49] And this is just a lot, you know, much ado about nothing. And I think it's maybe it's somewhere in the middle, but leaning toward the sign of things to come, in my opinion. Yeah, I mean, I do wonder because I know there's a lot of pressure on these larger AI companies as they're building data centers from local communities to offset the costs. So I'm wondering if that's where some of this is coming from, because there is the pushback is growing at a local level.

[00:21:18] I mean, Anthropa being as big as they are. I mean, I can't imagine that's the only reason. But, you know, we are seeing more grassroots pushback. You know, a friend of mine is currently fighting the data center that they're trying to build in Ypsilanti. And there is a massive group that has been put together that is like actively fighting that one. And that because that's supposed to be like completely and just it's going to totally change the landscape of that area.

[00:21:47] And so, you know, I am wondering if that's why they're starting this movement a little bit. And they know at the enterprise level, that's where they're going to be able to make the change. But Anthropic, you know, they keep trying to say that they're the good one. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes. But then they. It's good PR. It's good PR. It's good. Yeah. Yeah. They are. They they're they're trying to stick with that. So relatively speaking, they do look like the good ones. Yeah.

[00:22:14] But they I think I've seen people write about, you know, sort of what they have data centers to. They they're they're not better for the environment or, you know, that's that they're not their AI isn't protecting jobs more so than any other AI. So park that story in your mind for a moment.

[00:22:35] And now the other story that I had seen this week or in the last few days or something, Business Insider put out an article about the title Office AI leaderboards are here. Tell us if you think they're fun or fraught. And what this is, is basically, you know, white collar workers being ranked on an ongoing basis. You know, it's for it's called token maxing.

[00:23:00] So the number of tokens that you're using by just using AI in general or writing apps or. Gamify your AI usage. Right. Right. Like you used to want, like, to get the points, like get enough steps and maybe you'll. Your Fitbit. Yeah. Right. How many laps can you do around the office? Now you need to be at your desk and consume tokens. Consume, consume, consume.

[00:23:28] And JP Morgan and Disney and others are tracking usage and ranking their employers on leaderboards. Of course, it's JP Morgan also. Number one with a star. Yeah. Yeah. And it's Claude that they reported a Disney AI adoption dashboard shows one employee invoking four hundred sixty thousand. Claude. I'm sorry.

[00:23:54] Invoking Claude four hundred sixty thousand times in nine days. Likely with the help of agents. Yeah. I was going to say, like, they definitely. Whatever that is, is either a North Korean deepfake or. Yeah. Has developed some insane number of agents to be supporting that initiative. At Meta, engineers can earn titles like Token Legend for their use of tokens. Like it doesn't.

[00:24:23] Like I'm the token legend. Like that just doesn't sound right. That just. Like going back to like the we're looking to hire a ninja rock star for our. Why are humans so gross sometimes? This is the future. And it the article comes with a poll. They're looking to get input from the market. So if anybody finds this interesting or as silly as I do, scary as I do, share with business and go go share your opinion with business.

[00:24:52] And so I'm laughing because it's absolutely horrifying. Yeah. It's one of those like I have to laugh. Otherwise I'm going to cry moments because, yeah, I'm weeping for humanity. Considering we've entered an era of global water bankruptcy. Yeah. Meanwhile, employers are. And I mean, again, like what do you get other than a cool title? You know, like do I. I guess. I mean, there's probably like a trip for some people to go skiing at the end of the year. But. And, you know.

[00:25:20] Get a better work life balance because it doesn't sound like it. And I didn't think of this when we were talking before the show, but the founder of the CEO of Workable. And I can't remember his name. Put a LinkedIn post up today that I had caught. It just it just jarred my memory here. So for the last few months, they've been using the Claude workplace tool. All the employees are using it. And he had some interesting observations. One was that personal productivity increasing.

[00:25:50] Everybody's personal productivity went up, but that did not necessarily relate directly to any productivity for the business going up. So you might be replying to emails faster or writing better emails or whatever you're doing, whatever you're automating. But the key to business productivity and his I think he's right is alignment, communication, being on the same page, leadership.

[00:26:14] And the AI doesn't do anything across departments or a crop from human to human for that. It also he gave an example that when classic McKinsey 50 page brief is not necessarily that valuable. But because of the way AI works, he's seen a lot of 50 page briefs in this few months. It's not helpful.

[00:26:39] He and he said that the AI also exposes competence or lack thereof greatly. So if you really know what you're doing and you're leveraging AI, the output, what you're able to create with it looks one way. And if you don't, if you're not, you know, you don't have that expertise, you end up creating a lot of slop, a lot of AI slop.

[00:27:01] And it exposes that because those 50 page briefs are probably, you know, some 50 page briefs may be really insightful and others may be just a lot of. Sfiller. Yeah. Yeah. So. Well, that's fun. Yeah. Well, you kind of just brought us to. Yeah. Oh, gosh. Yeah. Well, that brings us. You brought us to the industry, though, and what's happening there. And there's there's a lot happening in the industry these days. You know, obviously, you just put out your report on the first quarter of 2026.

[00:27:31] I did. I did. And on the VC side saw in Q1, we saw one point nine billion dollars in capital come in across 58 deals. But a huge percentage of that 68 percent of all the Q1 capital came from five mega deals. So it skews toward, you know, big deals. However, a lot of the remaining 33 of the 58 deals were actually seed or pre-seed.

[00:27:59] So you can everybody can go look at the report. And I but I had written a piece earlier this year about how the middle is getting squeezed. And this is it's I'd use an hourglass to show, you know, you've got your sort of big in this case, big VC deals in the incumbent incumbents. It's like, you know, on the M&A side, a lot of platforms acquiring a lot of early stage A.I. That's the top of the hourglass, the bottom of the hourglass.

[00:28:26] A lot of new entrants getting funding to build A.I. Native agentic new models to how we do things. Everybody in the middle. If you came to market 2019 to today and you didn't get serious traction and make it to the top of the hourglass, you're feeling the squeeze right now. And that is that's a tough place to be because you were on the SAS bandwagon. And it's OK to be SAS if you've got traction, data and so forth.

[00:28:55] But it's to build on and maybe move quickly to on A.I. But if you didn't have that, you're you're kind of stuck because it's hard to raise more money and it's hard to get customers right now without that. So that's that's the it's not bad news. It's just is what it is on the front. We did our first ever focused M&A report. Forty, 40 transactions, 41 acquisitions because one company acquired two properties from another firm.

[00:29:25] So and it speaks to the same. It speaks to platforms buying capabilities, not buying revenue. They're not buying market share. They're buying A.I. that they can bring into their platform faster than if they developed it themselves. That's a lot of transactions like that. A lot of tuck ins, a lot of smaller deals. And there are some bigger deals. And key for we had a ton of several really big notable deals by Workday and SAP.

[00:29:55] But but that's that's sort of the story, along with the fact that on the funding front, it looks just like it always does. U.S. commands 84, 85 percent of all the funding. But on the M&A front, we're sort of toe to toe with Europe. So Europe had like almost half of the transactions and companies like SD Works and Multiverse and others in Europe were serial acquirers. They acquired at least two shops in Q1.

[00:30:25] So I found that interesting. Europe's definitely consolidating at the same rate or I guess relative to the U.S. market, maybe even faster than the U.S. Yeah. So very interesting. Well, and now here we are. Gosh, we're, you know, Q2. Yep. We are in Q2. We're in it. And there's there's a lot happening, though, in the space again with with raises and some we're seeing some stuff moving here. I know Humanly just did another raise.

[00:30:52] Well, I think they did some acquisitions last year, but I think they raised 25 million this time that we saw. I think the headline I saw from GeekWire was that they're putting AI to work for job seekers, not just the companies hiring them. Yeah. So sounds positive. Yeah. We'll see. Yeah. It's nothing to seize at. Yeah. No, that was probably the.

[00:31:18] So, I mean, Q1's just we just got started a couple of months left. And so that's the the biggest funding deal. I'm just looking at my list of M&A in Q2 and Paylosophy acquired Grayscale. Yes. Ty Abernathy, who was out of Take the Interview years ago and Take the Interview is over. They're part of Intello now, I think. Right. Because I can go way back.

[00:31:46] No, I represented Take the Interview a million years ago. So that's where I know Ty from. Yeah. And Daniel Weinblatt. And yeah, that's that's all. But that, yeah. Grayscale got snatched up. I forgot about that one. Yep. And Remote acquired a French payroll company. No, I'm sorry. Remote is the payroll, the EOR company. They acquired an identity verification company called Braavis in France. Ah, yes. Yes. Yeah.

[00:32:11] So a lot of in Q1, a lot of those platform deals were around EOR extending, you know, payroll companies extending capabilities. So, yeah, we're off and running in Q2. I, it's not, I always say like one quarter does not, you know, we look at things quarterly because it's, that's the way we're, you know, sort of accustomed to doing it. But I really think it's, you know, when you look at, you know, last year versus this year,

[00:32:41] at the end of the year, we'll see how it really plays out. Q1 this year was very similar to Q1 last year. Same number of deals. Oh, wow. So in, from a VC perspective, so, but that doesn't, you know, we'll see, you know, we'll see where we go. I'll have a better take next, at the end of next quarter. Well, and I know, I know there's some announcements coming this week when we're dropping this. So, you know, when we're recording this, they're not live yet, but they should be live by the time this drops.

[00:33:09] So we'll just, we'll leave that there. Okay. For the sake of. I think that's a good idea. For the sake of protecting the, uh, the innocent and my credibility as a PR person. But yeah. So that's, I mean, again, it'll be exciting to see, see where this quarter takes us. It has obviously been a very wacky year so far in this market, but I think, I think, you know, to your point about transform, I heard nothing but positive things too, just to bring this back around.

[00:33:36] So hopefully we do see some good vibes, um, and you know, some, some changes on the horizon here. Yeah. Yeah. I'm excited for HR tech this year. I mean, it's for anybody listening, it feel, oh gosh, it's six months away, but I'm in full like execution mode. Oh yeah. It's. Yeah. You know, they've really on the investor experience and pitch fest front, they've really empowered me there. And I feel like, you know, I'm feeling good.

[00:34:06] Uh, and you know. Again, I got details I can't share yet, but there's stuff coming. Same. Same. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot, a lot happening there. So, yeah, I mean, and you know, to your point about, you know, we're in this smaller event season, but I mean, there was still a ton happening this month. There was Sherm talent. There was a world at work, total rewards. Uh, I think work day is innovation summit and you know, next month, I think it's mostly user conferences and stuff like that, but then there's Sherm annual and you know, there's still lots happening.

[00:34:34] You know, this, this is a space that really never stops because people never stop. That's right. So that's the good news. So that brings us, that brings us to the end for today, which, uh, George, Rose and Thorne. So my rose was going to be Spain, but I already talked about that. Um, and, but you know what, uh, Kate being back at it with up next at work tech, there's my, there's my rose. It's, it's good to be back and it's good to be, you know, good to be at it.

[00:35:04] And I'm, and I get to do this with one of the top women in the PR industry, which I already knew that inherently, but it's been, it's like, we can put that on the graphics now for the show. So, um, do I do both? And then you do both. Okay. You can do both. My thorn also has to do with Spain, but it really has more to do with the U S. So it was. No, no, no.

[00:35:30] Uh, so it was really sad to see anti U S graffiti all over Madrid and Barcelona. I, we went to a big football match, which for the, those in the U S we went to a soccer match and it was, it was 80,000. I'm not exaggerating 80,000 people. And as we came out, there's this little old Spaniard. It's just standing by himself. So sort of like as if a salmon was going upstream.

[00:35:59] So the crowd had to part to get around him and he was holding, he was short, like maybe all of five feet, nothing. Right. And he had a big pole and on the top of the pole that was probably eight feet tall, a little tiny sign that said embargo Trump. And the graffiti wasn't as kind. The graffiti we saw. And it wasn't just about him. It was about the U S and things that was sad. Um, and it really brought home the impact and how connected we really all are.

[00:36:28] And the only other time I've had that feeling is when I was in Sweden at the time of the very first, that very first, um, Iraq, the bombs were dropping in Iraq and I got in a taxi and the taxi driver said, Oh, where are you from? And I saw the U S I said, where are you from? And he said, Iraq. And I went, Ooh. And he was someone who had been displaced from, from that country. So he was all at that point. It was early.

[00:36:56] We hadn't gone through all the learning, what we ended up learning. So he was go, go, go. But that feeling of like, like this is I'm half, I'm, you know, almost halfway around the world and you know, the impact anyhow. So it's icky. Yeah. We, someone, I was in Iceland a number of years ago during, I think it was the first Trump administration. And I was talking to someone who I think was actually Norwegian or something like that.

[00:37:24] And, you know, they said to me, and I thought this was really profound. You know, Americans don't realize that the rest of the world watches us like a reality TV show. Everything we do, they're watching. Like we don't know what's happening in other countries most of the time. You know, like little things that happen in other countries, like small hurricane, you know, storms and things like that. We don't know when legislation is passed, small things. They know everything that happens here.

[00:37:53] And, you know, we, we don't have an understanding of how much impact we have. We are TV, we are, and, you know, we have unfortunately become a bad sitcom essentially for the rest of the world. And so I under, I understand that. It's, it's, it's a strange feeling to have seen our, our ratings essentially drop. It's a good way to put it. Yeah. You know, we went from being a show that people look forward to seeing to one that people are not enjoying watching anymore.

[00:38:22] My Rose and Thorn, and you, you actually kind of mentioned this earlier in the episode, and it's not about being a top woman. It's, at this point, a few weeks out from competing at nationals. And so that is both my Rose and my Thorn, because I'm, I'm really in it at this point with training. So that's, it's a lot of pressure, you know, to, you have to balance. And I also have to go to Corpus Christi to compete, which I mentioned to William Tincup the other day, who, you know, lives in Texas.

[00:38:49] And he said to me, why are you going to, like, he was like, Texans don't go to Corpus Christi. And I was like, I don't have a choice. That's where the competition is. But of course he's coming to New Jersey this week. So he wasn't really looking forward to that. So, you know, we kind of took our shots at each other. But yeah, so that's both my Rose and my Thorn is that I will be competing towards the end of May. And so. I don't know if, first off, good luck.

[00:39:14] And I know you were like on the national team and so, you know, I can't wait to hear how this goes. Yeah. And, you know, I, I'm so impressed by the whole thing. Like just the fact that you do that and then you're a leader in that, that's awesome. Second, you and William took shots at each other. I have no idea what was said, but you win. You won. You won. Yeah. I mean, I, I'll always prefer New Jersey over to, uh, over Texas.

[00:39:43] And also, uh, just for anybody who is currently watching the show, big mistakes on Netflix. Yeah. Cause I know that's very popular right now. That was filmed in 40 different locations in the state of New Jersey. So one of them was including one by me too. So ha ha jokes on you. And I will just mic drop that right there. And you know, our secret, I know you've, I'm sure you feel the same way. It's like, I'm happy for everyone to get their impression of New Jersey in the like few mile radius around Newark airport.

[00:40:12] Like keep that as what you think this all is. Yeah. Because we're, we're already the most densely populated state. We don't need it anymore. Yeah. There's a guy on Instagram right now who's British. We moved to New Jersey and he refers to us, you know, Ollie. Yeah. The great, the greatest country. Yeah. Greatest country. Yeah. Yeah. He's great. So I, uh, I enjoy him immensely, but yeah. So we'll just, we'll just continue to pat ourselves on the back and I guess we'll return again in like a couple of weeks. Yes. Yes. All right.

[00:40:41] Will you be finished with the event by then or? No, you and I will probably talk one more time. Okay. All right. Okay. All right. All right. Well, I'll wish you good luck again then. Thank you. All right. Okay. Thanks, Kate. Thanks everyone. Thank you. Bye-bye. Bye. Thanks for listening to or watching Up Next at WorkTech. Brought to you by the Work Defined Podcast Network, The Devon Group, and WorkTech. Thanks for listening.