Up Next @ Work, Episode 12 with Caitlin MacGregor, CEO of Plum

[00:00:12] Welcome to today's episode of Up Next Work. I'm Katie Kelly from the Devon Group, and today I am joined by Caitlin MacGregor of Plum. Hello, Caitlin.

[00:00:22] Hi, thank you so much for having me.

[00:00:24] Yeah, thank you for joining us. So today we're going to tackle a specific topic that Caitlin kind of introduced to me a while back, and that is the gap closers.

[00:00:33] So Caitlin, can you tell us how, you know, what is a gap closer and how did you sort of recognize this person, personality type or person?

[00:00:44] Gap closers are really those that see an opportunity to make things better. So something may not exist, and so they go out and create it.

[00:00:53] They may see a problem and they are naturally motivated to go and solve it.

[00:01:00] They're not just content with the status quo. If they see an opportunity for something to improve, to grow, to be better, they feel compelled.

[00:01:10] Like they're antsy in that they want to go out and they want to actually address it and fix it and make it better.

[00:01:15] They're not okay with it just staying kind of lesser, and they want to make it better.

[00:01:23] And that really is recognizing that there is a gap, and they feel compelled to go out and close that gap.

[00:01:29] And it really doesn't matter what the gap is. There's this constant drive to go and really close that gap.

[00:01:39] So do you see gap closers? Is it like an innate, something innate, something that's inherent?

[00:01:45] Or do you think gap closer, being a gap closer, something that can develop?

[00:01:49] I think that there is something that definitely is innate. It doesn't mean that you can't strengthen it.

[00:01:58] It doesn't mean that if it's something that's really draining for somebody that they can't create compensatory strategies.

[00:02:04] But I think that the ones that truly get out in front and have that internal motivation that, you know, they're going to work on weekends.

[00:02:12] They're going to work late. They're going to advocate to reallocate their time during the 9 to 5 to work on these things.

[00:02:19] Like, they can't let it go. They feel compelled to do something.

[00:02:25] That ultimately is that they feel rewarded by it.

[00:02:29] That by solving something, they get a sense of self-accomplishment.

[00:02:34] And people can feel accomplishment from a whole bunch of different reasons.

[00:02:37] It's just these people specifically feel that sense of fulfillment by closing the gap.

[00:02:43] And so there is that innate drive where they're seeking those opportunities.

[00:02:49] And it could be, you know, it doesn't even necessarily exist in work.

[00:02:53] Like, it could be in their community outside of work.

[00:02:55] It could be what drives them to volunteer.

[00:02:58] It can be like, it shows up in so many different places.

[00:03:01] But the reason that somebody does it is not because somebody told them to.

[00:03:05] It's not because it's in their job description.

[00:03:07] It's because they look at it and they can't help themselves.

[00:03:10] That's what they want to do.

[00:03:12] And when they're done, there is that euphoric, oh, okay, finally, it's better.

[00:03:17] I've been able to solve for it.

[00:03:18] I can be able to prove it.

[00:03:20] Now I can let it go and move on to something else.

[00:03:22] So there is that internal motivation that is there.

[00:03:26] Doesn't mean that it can't be strengthened or improved upon, but it definitely is innate.

[00:03:31] So obviously, Plum, you guys are experts in sort of talent assessments.

[00:03:36] Are there specific skills that you think gap closers have or that you observed?

[00:03:41] Definitely.

[00:03:43] So when I look at myself as a gap closer, if I look at others within my organization that

[00:03:51] have that, just they have to, they have to go out and figure it out.

[00:03:56] There tends to be two trends that I see consistently.

[00:04:00] Now, it doesn't mean that these people are identical in terms of how it shows up, but they

[00:04:06] are something again, that they have elements that really drive them and give them that sense

[00:04:11] of self-worth and give them energy.

[00:04:12] And the first one is innovation, where they look at something and see a better way of doing

[00:04:20] it, which is really that underlying piece of innovation is how can something be more efficient

[00:04:26] or how can it be different?

[00:04:28] It's that thinking outside the box of a different way than how it manifests in the current state.

[00:04:34] So innovation definitely is a talent, a durable skill that we see as being very strong in

[00:04:44] that they just can't look at something and be satisfied if they know it can be better.

[00:04:50] And that's where the innovation really is that just in terms of how they see things as

[00:04:54] definitely a strong talent.

[00:04:57] For me, innovation is not my top three talents.

[00:05:00] It's my fourth.

[00:05:01] So it doesn't have to be the very top.

[00:05:05] But if I look at the competencies and the behaviors within innovation, there's overwhelming behaviors

[00:05:11] that are very, very, very strong within that talent for me.

[00:05:15] And I see in a lot of the gap closers within my organization that innovation's definitely

[00:05:21] in the top motivators for them.

[00:05:25] And it really is about how you prioritize time.

[00:05:27] And it's really about, like, at the end of the day, what's giving you that sense of energy

[00:05:32] and fulfillment versus what's draining.

[00:05:34] And people that are really drained by innovation, that's not going to be the thing that they gravitate

[00:05:40] towards naturally.

[00:05:42] The second one is execution.

[00:05:45] Now, execution has multiple elements to it.

[00:05:49] Execution involves really great problem solving.

[00:05:53] Execution is really great kind of ambition.

[00:05:56] It's like you're compelled to complete as many items on the to-do list as possible.

[00:06:02] But it's also organization and being able to come up with systems.

[00:06:06] And I've seen combinations of these in different elements.

[00:06:10] For example, I'm not great at organization.

[00:06:13] I am great at it.

[00:06:15] It just takes me a long time and I have to prioritize it.

[00:06:18] And it's very draining.

[00:06:19] So I have created compensatory strategies.

[00:06:22] But naturally, if I only have an hour, that's not normally where I'm going to gravitate my time.

[00:06:30] So you can be strong in these things, but it may not show up as the top top.

[00:06:35] So, for example, especially as I've moved in my career, my executing in the weeds activities

[00:06:43] are less important for my job.

[00:06:46] And I've worked really, really hard at deprioritizing that in my own kind of list of priorities.

[00:06:54] But there is elements like that problem solving and that checking off the to-do list that just,

[00:06:59] you know, if I'm in my default state, I get a sense of self-worth from those things.

[00:07:03] And so it's, I think, part of the motivation of wanting to do more, wanting to go above and beyond,

[00:07:10] wanting to find those opportunities to do more.

[00:07:14] They're definitely there.

[00:07:16] They don't fully show up as, again, execution isn't my top three talents, but it is there.

[00:07:21] And I find that people that, especially that aren't managing others, like people that get

[00:07:29] to be an individual contributor or get to spend a lot of their time solving problems versus

[00:07:34] managing other people, they typically have that execution.

[00:07:37] And so they have the bandwidth to just go and solve problems in innovative ways and execute.

[00:07:44] And they tend to be fantastic gap closers because they can get in the weeds.

[00:07:49] They can roll up their sleeves and they can just figure it out until they solve it in a new way,

[00:07:55] a better way.

[00:07:57] So how can, how can like HR and talent acquisition leaders start to spot gap closers?

[00:08:05] Obviously for talent acquisition, it's a little, well, probably more challenging because you're

[00:08:09] meeting someone early in the relationship versus HR who may come in later once someone's already

[00:08:16] an employee.

[00:08:16] But what, what can we be doing to spot gap closers?

[00:08:20] Yeah.

[00:08:21] I think the very first thing we need to do is change our mindset.

[00:08:25] And I can't stress this enough because with generative AI, we have an opportunity to do things

[00:08:34] differently in how we hire and retain people.

[00:08:37] And unfortunately, what I keep seeing is people gravitating towards just automating existing

[00:08:44] systems.

[00:08:44] We're not actually taking the opportunity to do things differently.

[00:08:47] We're just trying to do them faster.

[00:08:49] And unfortunately, faster isn't helping us improve the quality of hire.

[00:08:55] Faster isn't helping us improve retention.

[00:08:57] And so I think it's really evaluating how are we looking at the quality of who we're hiring

[00:09:06] and how are we looking at the best ways to support and retain people once they're in?

[00:09:13] And is the technology that we're using focusing on the most important elements?

[00:09:20] Everything that I've been talking about with a gap closer, none of it has to do with past

[00:09:25] experience.

[00:09:26] None of it has to do with have they done this job previously at a similar size company at a

[00:09:33] competitor?

[00:09:34] When we look at any type of hiring and promotion, typically companies are trying to de-risk their

[00:09:42] decision making.

[00:09:43] As humans, they don't want to be blamed if they make a mistake.

[00:09:46] And so typically what they do is say, hey, I'm going to bet on somebody that has already

[00:09:51] done this before because the chances of them doing it again are higher.

[00:09:57] And therefore, if they've done this role somewhere else, I'm not making a bad decision by bringing

[00:10:03] them in.

[00:10:04] And unfortunately, jobs are changing so quickly that somebody could have done that job that

[00:10:11] you're hiring them for at a competing company.

[00:10:14] But by the time they get into your company, 70% of that job may be totally new.

[00:10:20] So maybe you're getting 30%, maybe.

[00:10:23] In six months from now, maybe that 30% is now 15% value.

[00:10:27] And a year from now, maybe that prior experience is 5% of value.

[00:10:30] Like, we really need to recognize that the opportunity to put this into action is recognizing

[00:10:36] that the science is really clear on this.

[00:10:39] Behavior and aligning somebody's innate behavior to the behaviors that you need for the job,

[00:10:46] that's where you end up getting increase in performance and productivity.

[00:10:50] That's where you get fulfillment from the individual in the role so that they are retained longer in

[00:10:55] the role.

[00:10:56] So how do we focus on looking at the innate behaviors first?

[00:11:03] And so when you're looking at, do I need a gap closer in this role?

[00:11:07] Am I looking for somebody who is naturally driven to think outside the box?

[00:11:14] Am I naturally motivated to go above and beyond and to execute and to keep working at it until

[00:11:21] they find the best solution moving forward?

[00:11:23] And there's often some examples in their past, but they're unconventional.

[00:11:30] So somebody that has had a job in a different industry or a different job title that's excited

[00:11:38] about this new opportunity actually is a good indicator that they're looking for a new experience.

[00:11:43] They're looking to continue to grow.

[00:11:45] Somebody that may have experience that they don't even put on the resume.

[00:11:49] So if we go into my history, I was constantly throughout high school and through university

[00:11:57] finding opportunities to solve problems.

[00:12:00] But they were in my extracurricular activities, which by the time I had had a couple of job

[00:12:06] experiences, they weren't even on my resume anymore.

[00:12:09] I didn't even see them as valuable.

[00:12:12] We often look at people that have entrepreneurial experience where they've created a business and

[00:12:18] they put that on their resume and we're like, oh, well, that's a sign of being entrepreneurial.

[00:12:23] That's a sign of being innovative.

[00:12:24] But there's so many examples of people being entrepreneurs, doing that kind of solving problems

[00:12:30] and starting new initiatives within their own organizations that often it's not visible.

[00:12:35] So it's really important to be able to measure the behaviors and see if they align to the behavioral

[00:12:44] needs of the role.

[00:12:46] And that's, you know, technology can now allow us to do that with a positive employee experience

[00:12:51] and it can allow us to do that at scale now.

[00:12:54] And so really, you know, looking at solutions that aren't just automating keyword matching

[00:13:00] and keyword inference, but looking at measuring those behaviors and then using that data to support

[00:13:07] them and align them to roles that those behaviors are being utilized.

[00:13:11] And not everybody's a gap closer, but there are other behaviors that are really critical.

[00:13:16] I was on a panel last week talking about generative AI and companies investing in AI talent, but

[00:13:22] their internal surveys show that actually the biggest problem right now is that people in

[00:13:27] the organization don't understand this AI strategy.

[00:13:30] So they don't have a lack of AI talent or a lack of AI initiatives.

[00:13:35] What they have is a lack of communication and can, you know, a lack of transparency in

[00:13:40] terms of communicating the why of that strategy.

[00:13:42] So there are people in the organization that are going to be excellent communicators that

[00:13:46] they're not leveraging.

[00:13:47] Maybe they're not gap closers that the company needs.

[00:13:50] They're really strong communicators in having a more effective communication strategy.

[00:13:55] So it's also recognizing that you don't only need gap closers.

[00:13:59] You need to have a mixture of different strengths, but are you aligning those strengths to the

[00:14:04] behavioral needs of the role?

[00:14:06] And most companies aren't actioning on that.

[00:14:08] And it's a real miss and it's more important than ever.

[00:14:13] So we've got, so it sounds like, you know, what you're saying is we've got the technologies

[00:14:17] to improve, you know, hiring and spotting the gap closers and the other potential, you know,

[00:14:24] contributors, but we're still stuck on our traditional strategies.

[00:14:29] And so we need to somehow, I guess, for lack of a better term, close that gap between the

[00:14:35] strategy and the solution to get to a place where we can start recognizing people for,

[00:14:40] you know, some of these innate drivers that they possess, whether that's being a gap closer

[00:14:45] or something else.

[00:14:47] So before we move on, I need to let you know about my friend, Mark Pfeffer and his show

[00:14:53] People Tech.

[00:14:54] If you're looking for the latest on product development, marketing, funding, big deals

[00:15:00] happening in talent acquisition, HR, HCM, that's the show you need to listen to.

[00:15:07] Go to the Work Defined Network, search up People Tech, Mark Pfeffer.

[00:15:11] You can find them anywhere.

[00:15:15] Have you ever been to a webinar where the topic was great, but there wasn't enough time to

[00:15:19] ask questions or have a dialogue to learn more?

[00:15:21] Well, welcome to HR and Payroll 2.0, the podcast where those post-webinar questions become episodes.

[00:15:27] We feature HR practitioners, leaders, and founders of HR, payroll, and workplace innovation and

[00:15:32] transformation sharing their insights and lessons learned from the trenches.

[00:15:35] We dig in to share the knowledge and tips that can help modern HR and payroll leaders navigate

[00:15:40] the challenges and opportunities ahead.

[00:15:42] So join us for highly authentic, unscripted conversations, and let's learn together.

[00:15:47] Where do we start?

[00:15:49] Is it at TA that we start by changing hiring strategies, or is it a conversation between

[00:15:54] HR and TA?

[00:15:57] I mean, I think it starts with data.

[00:15:59] In all honesty, I think it's recognizing that we don't have this data currently in the existing

[00:16:05] processes.

[00:16:06] If you're using Workday, if you're using SAP, no matter what you're using, most companies

[00:16:13] don't have the data.

[00:16:14] And what they thought the data they were missing was a whole bunch of hard skills data, which

[00:16:20] we call perishable skills.

[00:16:23] Let's be honest, six years ago, everybody wanted a Ruby on Rails software developer, and now

[00:16:28] nobody cares.

[00:16:29] So having employees and candidates go in and fill in a whole bunch of keywords around that

[00:16:35] past experience, that's not the data I'm talking about.

[00:16:38] That's the data that people are investing in right now.

[00:16:40] That's the data that's being marketed as, hey, you need more data points on people.

[00:16:44] Let's get a whole bunch of those keywords scraped from LinkedIn or from their resume, or let

[00:16:49] people just add in a whole bunch of keywords.

[00:16:51] And it ends up being a game of bingo.

[00:16:54] But it doesn't really drive down to those innate skills that are really going to be the drivers

[00:17:01] for that performance and that retention.

[00:17:02] So to me, I think it's a data that's missing.

[00:17:06] And it's about allowing individuals to start to get the data for themselves, first and foremost.

[00:17:13] I mean, that's why I created Plum, because I wanted every individual to be able to have

[00:17:20] this data that I've been talking about on themselves.

[00:17:24] I wanted people to be able to go, just like you have a LinkedIn profile.

[00:17:27] Well, LinkedIn talks about what you've done historically, and that's fantastic.

[00:17:31] But I wanted a profile where people could talk about what they could do if just given the

[00:17:36] opportunity.

[00:17:37] And by completing a Plum profile, you get the opportunity to say, what are the things that

[00:17:43] make me exceptional?

[00:17:44] Most people aren't self-aware.

[00:17:46] This is kind of the misconception.

[00:17:48] Even people later in their career, 40s and 50s, you would think that they would understand

[00:17:52] what are their superpowers.

[00:17:54] But the reality is, is it doesn't matter if you're early in your career or if you're mid-career

[00:17:58] or late career, the things that come easily to us, we often take for granted.

[00:18:03] We think, oh, it's easy.

[00:18:05] So why would I talk about it?

[00:18:07] Because it's easy.

[00:18:08] It's not hard.

[00:18:09] But we don't recognize that those things that are easy for us as individuals are exactly

[00:18:15] what makes us exceptional.

[00:18:16] Because we can do those easy things sometimes 10 times faster than our colleague that finds

[00:18:22] that specific thing hard for them.

[00:18:24] And we know that there are things that are hard or draining for us.

[00:18:29] And when we're in a job where we go home at the end of the day and we're exhausted all the

[00:18:36] time and we experience burnout, a lot of the times it's because we're doing those things

[00:18:42] that take us far more energy and time than others.

[00:18:45] And there's a real opportunity to say, hey, this takes me 10 times longer than my colleague.

[00:18:52] I'm going to pass this responsibility on to my colleague.

[00:18:55] And that thing that's really hard for them, super easy for me.

[00:18:58] Let them pass that to me.

[00:18:59] If we were spending 80% of our jobs on the things that are easy, we'd actually be able

[00:19:06] to accomplish a lot more.

[00:19:08] And we wouldn't be burnt out.

[00:19:10] And we'd enjoy our jobs a lot more.

[00:19:12] So as an individual, they can get that data on themselves and start to build that self-awareness

[00:19:20] and really become the CEO of their own career journey by starting with that self-awareness.

[00:19:26] And that same data can be shared with employers.

[00:19:29] It can be shared in the hiring process.

[00:19:32] It can be shared in the talent management process.

[00:19:35] But to me, it's a data problem in that we need this data at the very core of our talent

[00:19:42] decisions.

[00:19:42] And for me, it's getting that data as early as possible.

[00:19:47] You know, I think about the number of people that have spent ridiculous amounts of money,

[00:19:52] you know, going to university and college for the wrong program and getting into the workforce

[00:19:58] and going, oh, wait, I don't like it.

[00:20:01] I don't want to do this.

[00:20:02] Yeah.

[00:20:03] Yeah.

[00:20:03] And, you know, and then they, you know, jump around several different jobs until finally

[00:20:08] they're like, oh, this, this is now the right fit.

[00:20:12] Well, we could have saved so much time if that person had more self-awareness of what are

[00:20:17] the behaviors that actually drive and drain them early on.

[00:20:20] Same thing when we're thinking about mid-career transition, there are so many upskilling opportunities,

[00:20:26] but are we upskilling on the type of opportunities that are going to give us that competitive

[00:20:33] advantage where we're going to outperform our peers and stay longer in the role?

[00:20:38] I love working with the government of Barbados because they realized that so many of their

[00:20:45] people were impacted by COVID because most of the GDP comes from hospitality.

[00:20:49] But they also recognize there's 3.5 million unfilled cybersecurity roles internationally.

[00:20:54] So they said, what happens if we just upskill our population in cybersecurity?

[00:20:59] And that's a big gap they closed.

[00:21:01] That's a big gap.

[00:21:03] That's a big gap that the world's going to benefit from.

[00:21:06] Their economy's going to benefit from.

[00:21:07] Their people don't have to move overseas anymore.

[00:21:09] Their jobs are more stable.

[00:21:10] They can be paid more in cybersecurity.

[00:21:13] And so what happened is that 60% of the people that were upskilled in cybersecurity had no

[00:21:18] IT, no background whatsoever in cybersecurity.

[00:21:23] But Plum was able to identify if they would be successful post-upskilling in cybersecurity,

[00:21:29] if it was going to be a good fit.

[00:21:31] So there's so much advantage by starting with this data.

[00:21:34] And unfortunately, this industry of personality and cognitive data,

[00:21:39] the legacy of it was that it was used at the end.

[00:21:42] It was used at the very, very end to kind of give a go, no-go decision.

[00:21:47] And that's the wrong place to use it.

[00:21:49] We want to use this data as early as possible to help

[00:21:52] select who we should actually have conversations with, shortlist who should be moving to the next step.

[00:21:58] When you get bombarded with thousands of applicants that are using generative AI

[00:22:02] to apply to 5,000 jobs in their sleep, you know, and you're overwhelmed with candidates,

[00:22:07] we should be stack ranking them based on behaviors first,

[00:22:11] and then look at, you know, how long would it take for them to hit the ground running?

[00:22:17] You know, most people now, especially with the time to learn being so shortened with generative AI,

[00:22:24] you know, you can get somebody up to speed in just four months in a brand new job.

[00:22:28] And by the one-year mark, they're outperforming people with several years of more experience than them.

[00:22:34] So it really, we are at this perfect timing where we can close a gap.

[00:22:40] We have new problems emerging and new opportunities emerging with generative AI impacting the workforce.

[00:22:46] We have an opportunity to think about things differently and be gap closers ourselves in realizing that durable skills,

[00:22:54] which are all these behaviors we're talking about,

[00:22:57] are going to keep allowing people to solve problems in new ways,

[00:23:02] to have their behaviors adapt to the new demands.

[00:23:08] Whereas the hard skills, the perishable skills, those are going to constantly be changing and being irrelevant on such a short timeline.

[00:23:17] So there's an opportunity to emphasize durable skills first and to stop emphasizing those perishable skills.

[00:23:25] And look at the technology.

[00:23:26] Is the technology measuring and stack ranking and prioritizing and recommending people based on perishable skills?

[00:23:32] If they are, that's not going to be a solution that is successful for the next three to five years.

[00:23:39] If it is measuring and prioritizing and making recommendations to the individual in the company based on durable skills,

[00:23:47] then you're on the right track.

[00:23:48] And so there is a gap that needs to be closed.

[00:23:51] And the action is close this gap with durable skills.

[00:23:56] And innovation and execution are going to be the behaviors that you need

[00:24:00] if you're hiring your own gap closers internally.

[00:24:03] And, but recognize there's other behaviors that contribute to an organization beyond just gap closers.

[00:24:09] And those have value too.

[00:24:10] It's all about the alignment of what are, instead of KPIs,

[00:24:15] the, you know, key performance indicators that we've all been educated are so important.

[00:24:21] What are the KBIs for the job?

[00:24:24] The key behavioral indicators.

[00:24:25] And when you are meeting with your hiring team,

[00:24:27] or you're talking about internal mobility opportunities,

[00:24:30] sit down with the people that are part of that interview panel and talk about what are the behaviors you actually need?

[00:24:36] Do you need somebody to be a gap closer?

[00:24:38] Or do you need somebody to be really good at working on a team,

[00:24:42] you know, and, and figuring things out two heads are better than one.

[00:24:45] Or are you looking for somebody that's really good at resolving conflict or making fast decisions?

[00:24:52] Like what are the behaviors that you need for the role and match based on that?

[00:24:57] And it's, it's really is a different way of thinking about it.

[00:25:00] We have not been thinking about it this way enough,

[00:25:04] even though when you ask people, you know,

[00:25:06] how did you get to the job that you have today?

[00:25:08] Most people will say, oh, somebody saw potential in me.

[00:25:11] It gave me a, gave me an opportunity.

[00:25:13] Yeah.

[00:25:13] Some manager, some leader.

[00:25:15] Yeah.

[00:25:16] It's always some, some random person,

[00:25:17] but no, I think,

[00:25:19] I think what you're saying too,

[00:25:19] that's important is this is really important for managers and leaders to recognize though,

[00:25:23] because, you know,

[00:25:24] from what you were just saying about like building teams where you have this spread,

[00:25:29] because, you know, gap closers we've already established are great,

[00:25:32] but do you want your entire team to be gap closers?

[00:25:36] Probably not.

[00:25:36] You still need somebody who, you know,

[00:25:39] their, their superpower might be that they're the worker bee,

[00:25:42] who's just going to get all the projects done so that, you know,

[00:25:46] they can show their boss,

[00:25:47] hey, we're up 10% in terms of productivity.

[00:25:49] You know, depending on the culture and the organization,

[00:25:51] but, you know,

[00:25:52] this idea that we build teams around behaviors also and departments,

[00:25:57] you know,

[00:25:58] I think that's something that we really need to,

[00:26:01] to focus on,

[00:26:01] especially, you know,

[00:26:02] I guess for TA,

[00:26:04] maybe that's a conversation to have with their hiring managers as part of the

[00:26:07] intake process to really start to drive this home.

[00:26:10] So I'm trying to think of small ways we can start to shift.

[00:26:14] Yeah.

[00:26:14] Away from the traditional hiring and,

[00:26:17] you know,

[00:26:17] I mean,

[00:26:19] I'll embrace this.

[00:26:20] This isn't a little shift.

[00:26:22] This is a big shift,

[00:26:23] but I,

[00:26:23] I really think that every company needs to reevaluate their education requirements.

[00:26:30] If there is a certification that from a compliance standpoint is regulatory and you need to have it,

[00:26:37] obviously you have to leave that.

[00:26:39] But if there is no regulatory body saying they must have like a driver's license,

[00:26:45] if you're a driver,

[00:26:45] you have to have a driver's license.

[00:26:47] That's a non-negotiable,

[00:26:48] right?

[00:26:49] But if somebody is not driving,

[00:26:52] then you don't need a driver's license.

[00:26:55] You'd never put a driver's license on there as a way of just saying,

[00:26:58] well,

[00:26:59] you know,

[00:26:59] we only want people to drive because,

[00:27:01] you know,

[00:27:01] that says something about them.

[00:27:03] So we're putting that,

[00:27:04] you wouldn't do that.

[00:27:05] You don't have it in there because it's not job relevant.

[00:27:06] A lot of people have requirements in their job descriptions that are actually not job relevant.

[00:27:13] And it really,

[00:27:15] really it's the,

[00:27:16] they do it because they're like,

[00:27:18] oh,

[00:27:18] I'm getting 5,550 people applying for a job.

[00:27:22] I need a quick way of at least reducing that number.

[00:27:25] So I'm going to put in all of these things so that I'm only looking at the most qualified.

[00:27:28] It's total BS.

[00:27:30] So most companies that are at the forefront of becoming a skills-based organization

[00:27:36] and thinking about behavior first type of hiring and retention,

[00:27:40] they've recognized that eliminating a college and university degree is a first step.

[00:27:47] There is no reason,

[00:27:49] unless it's a regulatory requirement,

[00:27:51] to have a college or a university degree on the job post.

[00:27:55] Full stop.

[00:27:56] And I love Scotiabank for this because they started with us on campus recruiting.

[00:28:01] You know,

[00:28:02] they only used to hire from finance and business schools,

[00:28:05] and then they completely dropped that and they opened it up.

[00:28:09] And that's amazing.

[00:28:10] But we also saw that the head of TA didn't have a college or university degree.

[00:28:14] And he was one of the first in the bank to not have that college or university degree.

[00:28:20] And then eventually they dropped it for the entire bank,

[00:28:22] that it was no longer a requirement.

[00:28:24] And I, you know, if a big national, you know, international bank can drop college and university

[00:28:31] degrees as a, as a minimum requirement, I don't understand why other organizations can't take

[00:28:37] that leap.

[00:28:38] So I think that's a first step of signaling because how many, when you talk about those

[00:28:42] hiring managers, you know, you talk about HR and the recruiters talking to hiring managers,

[00:28:46] how many hiring managers have said to their recruiter,

[00:28:49] I want somebody from this university, or I want somebody with this degree.

[00:28:54] Like first words out of their mouth, or they get a staff rank of candidates and they

[00:28:58] automatically gravitate towards the ones that came from the higher, you know, well-known schools.

[00:29:05] Like that, there's no need for it anymore.

[00:29:08] That is an easy step that every company can be taking.

[00:29:12] And what it does is it forces companies to then say, okay, well, if it's not

[00:29:16] the university degree or the college degree, if it's not this, this college that they went to,

[00:29:21] then what is it?

[00:29:23] And then you get into those KBIs.

[00:29:25] What are those key behavioral indicators that you want to see?

[00:29:29] We're 12 months down the road after you've hired somebody or promoted somebody,

[00:29:32] what is going to make them exceptional in the role?

[00:29:36] That's the conversation that needs to be happening.

[00:29:38] And if you look at any best practices, that's a conversation that should have been

[00:29:41] happening for the last 10 years.

[00:29:43] It just wasn't.

[00:29:44] Now is the time to say, okay, we have an opportunity to do things differently.

[00:29:48] Frankly, we have to do things differently.

[00:29:51] You know, the way that the world's been in the last five, 10 years, that's not the way

[00:29:55] it's going to be for the next three to five years.

[00:29:57] We have to do things differently.

[00:29:59] This is the time to change the approach and perspective.

[00:30:01] And this is a very easy way to start actioning things.

[00:30:05] Well, it sounds like we need some gap closers who are willing to fix this,

[00:30:10] to step into maybe some of these recruiting and TA and HR roles to start the mindset shift

[00:30:16] within their organizations.

[00:30:18] Obviously, it's a very big ask, but I would love to see people feel empowered to do so.

[00:30:25] It's the empowerment, right?

[00:30:26] Like part of what happens often is, especially when you get into a corporate kind of work

[00:30:34] environment, there tends to be some fear of screwing up, fear of making a mistake, fear

[00:30:41] that if I do something that's never been done before, I may mess it up and I may get in trouble.

[00:30:47] And so part of a gap closers kind of innate drive is that the negativity of the status quo and seeing

[00:30:58] that mistake day in, day out and seeing that gap day in, day out, that that drive to want to fix it

[00:31:06] is bigger than the fear of screwing something up, the fear of failure.

[00:31:11] There is a confidence that progress and improvement is going to outweigh any kind of downside that the

[00:31:21] disruption may take.

[00:31:22] And there is that risk reward that they are driven to take the risk of doing things differently because

[00:31:29] they know the reward is so much better than just allowing this kind of bad thing to continue as is.

[00:31:37] And there's a lot of people in HR that haven't been empowered to take that risk, that haven't been

[00:31:44] empowered to say it's okay if you try something and it doesn't work.

[00:31:49] You know, and if we think about recruiters, they report to hiring managers.

[00:31:53] If hiring managers are like, this is what I want, it's really hard to go up against them.

[00:31:58] They typically get paid more money.

[00:31:59] The hiring managers typically have more authority.

[00:32:01] So to go against what the hiring manager is saying and say, actually, there's a better way, that's hard.

[00:32:08] We have created this hierarchy where they don't have the power to say to the hiring manager, actually,

[00:32:14] you're doing it wrong.

[00:32:16] I am going to get you better people that are going to stay longer and you need to trust me and you need to

[00:32:21] try this out.

[00:32:22] And I know it's going to feel uncomfortable because you don't want to waste your time with a bad hire.

[00:32:26] You don't want to waste your time with somebody that's not going to work out.

[00:32:29] I get it, but like, this is going to be better.

[00:32:32] So often the companies that are really successful at this, they have mandated to the hiring managers,

[00:32:39] you're going to do things differently.

[00:32:41] And I have mandated and said, I am telling you that if you don't start doing things differently,

[00:32:46] you're going to be in trouble hiring manager.

[00:32:47] And we have this amazing recruiter that's going to work with you and help hold your hand in doing

[00:32:53] things differently.

[00:32:54] But you can't just have a recruiter on their own, go and tell a hiring manager, we're going to do

[00:32:58] things differently.

[00:32:59] The company has to mandate it and empower the recruiter to do things differently.

[00:33:04] And unfortunately, like that means that somebody at the top has to be willing to piss off a bunch

[00:33:11] of hiring managers to, you know, go through the uncomfortableness of change and has to be willing

[00:33:17] to stick their neck out there.

[00:33:19] And again, you know, it's hard.

[00:33:22] People are the most expensive resource at the entire company.

[00:33:26] So the cost of failing is so high, but this is why it's the right moment.

[00:33:33] Because if we keep doing things the way that we've been doing them for the last five, 10 years,

[00:33:37] there's failure no matter what.

[00:33:39] Like failure is inevitable at this point.

[00:33:41] So the question is, do you want to be the person that avoided the failure, that closed the gap

[00:33:47] and did things better?

[00:33:49] Or do you want to keep playing it safe?

[00:33:51] And so gap closers are sick and tired of playing it safe.

[00:33:55] They want to do things differently and they're willing to own the risk because they know the reward

[00:34:00] is worth it.

[00:34:02] Well, that sounds like a big strategic advantage to me.

[00:34:06] Thank you, Caitlin, for coming on to talk to us about gap closers today.

[00:34:10] Super interesting.

[00:34:12] Can you tell folks where to find you?

[00:34:15] Plum.io and everyone can go and complete their own free Plum profile and they can share

[00:34:21] it with their colleagues.

[00:34:22] It's a way of really starting this journey as an individual and seeing what it is to have

[00:34:27] this data on yourself.

[00:34:29] And once you see it, you can start to imagine what would it be like to see it for candidates

[00:34:32] and for employees and make decisions around this data.

[00:34:35] So Plum.io and go complete your own free Plum profile.

[00:34:39] Awesome.

[00:34:40] And if you end up closing any gaps in your organization, please reach out and let us know.

[00:34:44] And we will see you soon on the next episode of Up Next at Work.

[00:34:47] Thank you.