Totally Rewarding Chats | Ep. 26: The EU Directive from a Swiss Perspective

[00:00:08] Alright, we have another totally rewarding chat session about to get started. We have Rachel Gibbs from Meritees Consulting. How are you? Rachel Gibbs, Great to meet you and thank you for this opportunity to talk about pay transparency. See, you know you love the stuff when you're like it's an opportunity to talk about pay transparency. Yeah, just a bit. Where are you dialing in from as we'll call it today? I'm in the center of Europe in Switzerland between Zurich and Lucerne.

[00:00:38] I like how you, because you could tell I'm American, you had to tell me where Switzerland was. That's probably not unfair. That's probably not unfair. It is one of my favorite places but I like how you took that preemptive strike for us. Just so I don't, you know, kind of have to go back through your background and get it the right way, wrong way, can you go back and give us your elevator pitch on where you're at now and how you got there and however many floors you need to do that?

[00:01:09] I run Meritees Consultancy. We specialize in pay transparency and pay equity, getting clients ready principally for the European Pay Transparency Directive. That's a big piece of legislation coming through in the next 18 months now. And it's a topic I'm really passionate about. I started my career a long time ago doing tax, moved across Intercomp and Ben and really found my niche here in pay transparency

[00:01:34] and ensuring that there's pay equity across all areas within corporate employers. So, yeah, really passionate about it. That's awesome. I did not know you were from tax. So congratulations for escaping. So the one thing I usually ask, you know, some hobbies, you know, hobbies prove to us you're a human outside of doing pay transparency and equity work.

[00:02:03] I think this is the real reason I'm in Switzerland is is the I love hiking. I love swimming in the lakes in the summer, cycling and snowshoeing in the winter. And I'm from the UK and it's less easy to do those from your doorstep in the UK. So that's what keeps me here. It's fantastic scenery and ability to do so much outdoors. That's really my point. We'll have to get early next year. I want to do a panel of people who get outside and talk about work life balance.

[00:02:32] And basically, I'm a child who plays outside all the time, too, basically. So I'm totally with you. And it is Switzerland is such a it's basically an outdoor playground. Yeah, which is the hardest part about living there is deciding what you're going to go do outside. That's true. But the weather determines most of that and and the snow conditions. That makes a big difference. As I learned, having come from the UK, where snow is a hobby and everything stops, schools, transport. And here, everything carries on. But you just have to be careful.

[00:03:03] And it's quite different. Yeah, I'm sure I know. Yeah, I know in the UK, the world stops with an interest note. So the way I've started with everybody who's in pay equity and transparency is in your own words, can you kind of define the difference between pay equity and pay transparency or what each one is in your mind? However, you want to tackle that. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:03:28] Transparency is about a level of open discussion around how pay decisions are made. It doesn't necessarily mean that everyone has the same level of information. I don't necessarily need to know what my my peers or my boss are earning, but I certainly know enough to understand how those decisions have been made to determine their pay in my own. And so that's pay transparency.

[00:03:54] Pay equity is about being paid according to the work I do, work of equal value across across the organization and go back to pay transparency, understanding how that's come at. So, again, it's not about a communist system where everyone's paid the same. It's about recognizing fundamental differences, qualifications, skills, experience, which are gender neutral. But but they're not.

[00:04:22] That's the point is that they're based around gender neutral work related factors rather than personal factors, which I can't change. So I might actually steal that somewhere. I think the recognized differences in a gender neutral fashion is what I might steal. I don't know. I don't know if it came out exactly that way, but that's what what in my mind I just took from that is, you know, there are differences. And that that's not what we're trying to get to.

[00:04:51] We're not trying to get to every role pays exactly the same for the job, but recognize the differences. So you mentioned that EU. So one of the reasons I talked to you, it is, you know, less than two years away. It is coming soon and depending where you are between one and four comp cycles away, depending how you phrase that as well. So if if a company gives you a call now and says we want to start looking at this because we're scared the calendar is coming quick.

[00:05:21] Where do you typically start with companies and trying to get this done the best way possible? It's dangerous to one. And we've touched on it already. One is about a job leveling process to make sure that you understand where your jobs are similar. And then there's a question of doing pay equity to look internally and make sure that you're you're paying fairly across across the job functions and the the job levels.

[00:05:49] And and then the big worry is is the communication piece, particularly at the moment where you're you're heading to a particular deadline and you have to kind of get the factors in place in time. And that's quite a big piece of work, getting line managers ready, getting employees ready so they understand the background and the theories. And and within the directive, there's also a role for a workers representative.

[00:06:18] This is someone who's an intermediary between the employer and the employee to manage these conversations. And there's a big communication piece for that group because they're slightly niche and they're going to have more access or better, more detailed access to more confidential information. So getting that group ready. So it's it's it's not insignificant. So it sounds like a lot of work.

[00:06:43] And before we start to the work for those Americans there, can you summarize what the penalty phase or the downside or the ramifications might look for? Because there's the obvious there's the obvious we need to pay people the right way for doing the same jobs because we're just good humans. Right. But assuming you don't don't play along or don't meet the deadlines, if you can quickly summarize what that looks like. Yeah, there are a couple of reporting elements.

[00:07:09] One is around I can request to know where I sit in the job in the salary band and I can get that for averages by male and female also in the same salary bands as me. And if I don't meet those deadlines, then there's penalties and fines for missing that deadline. There's also gender pay gap reporting and many companies have come across this already in Europe.

[00:07:36] And this will be across the levels again and also through the whole organization. And if you don't have if you have more than a five percent difference within those job level gender pay gaps by levels, then you potentially have to go to joint pay assessment. If I mean, the worst case on the reporting element is fines and penalties. It's really where an employee raises a claim. And then and then two things are important there.

[00:08:06] One is that the the onus, the onus is on the company now to prove it's paid fairly. And my experience certainly here and in the UK is it's the other way around. The employee has to prove they've been discriminated against and the fines are unlimited. They include interest, loss of loss of income, loss of opportunities. And yeah, so it gets it can get very expensive.

[00:08:36] And to put it in context, there have been cases in the UK and there's one ongoing at the moment around fair pay with the retailer called Next. Next, and that covers three and a half thousand people. And it's thirty one million pounds is the cost of the companies incurring. Another one is a council in the UK, similar issue, equal pay. And that's one point five billion.

[00:09:03] And these numbers become eye watering after a while, particularly if you've got a large headcount. Yeah, which is why I think that was more for, to be honest, the American than non-Europeans, because I think the numbers that are already out there are already staggering. The one piece will just since you mentioned it, I don't know how we'll get instead of looping back and trusting myself to remember the five percent pay gap. So in some locations, that's raw, raw pay gap.

[00:09:29] And in some place that's adjusted pay gap via regression. Right. Where do you think that's going to end up? And I'll let you kind of wax on that. My my my thinking is we're going to end up a regression everywhere because the numbers are so massive. So next, for example, that number might become smaller via regression or the five percent. You know, they might get inside the five thresholds with that and there's going to be legal precedent. But right now it's not.

[00:09:57] So I don't know what your thoughts are around that. Exactly. You said that there's no precedent. And we're still waiting for almost all the legislation to come out. Brussels, one area in Belgium, Brussels and the surrounding area have adopted the directive. And we've had legislation come through in Sweden. But these these points actually aren't in there in that level of detail, which is a pity because it is the sort of stuff that people are waiting for.

[00:10:26] Or I mean, your worst case scenario is unregressed. And and but then realistically, you can't run a business without some some factors in there to give you some flexibility. Yeah. And that's why I think the legal is going to catch up. I mean, the one I use, for example, in the US a lot is, you know, it's 250 employees or more. But where are those employees? Is it by country?

[00:10:52] Is it by and so it's, you know, even to your to your point, the legislation hasn't caught up. You just know within a couple of years, you know, you need to be prepared as you go. So the baseline, which we've talked about a lot on here. So the job leveling piece. And so your organization helps helps companies tackle that. And how long does it usually take them to go through that process, knowing that they have to create this probably a little more in depth to create cohorts or et cetera?

[00:11:20] It's got to be a little more correct, I guess. In a weekend with a very small organization, the longest I've taken is about 18 months. It's realistically that's undesirable in the current environment. And it really depends. And also you can you can simplify it by taking a number of spot spot positions, key positions within the organization. Obviously, you have the CEO, his or her direct reports.

[00:11:48] And then underneath that, some critical positions for this purpose. And then you you sort of match around it. So you can do it a lot more quickly than 18 months for sure. But that's I think that was the most detailed one I ever came across. Oh, and are you seeing more companies use third parties to do this? Because I've kind of joked that the Comfort or Rewards teams usually aren't underworked anywhere I've talked to.

[00:12:16] So are you seeing them now lean into third parties to deal with the job leveling because it just takes time that they don't have? Yeah. The other thing I've seen, which is that companies have done this work 18 months, two, three years ago, and then they've done nothing with it. So they've kind of got to pick it back up the shelf. And one thing they're missing is the opportunity to embed this in the organization and getting governance right around pay transparency so that.

[00:12:45] Two years, three years after the directive comes in, the companies are managing this on a on an easy basis, but it's not all falling apart around the pay equity elements is really critical. And I don't think so many companies are focusing on this kind of blinkered view of getting the directive in and done and then very little thought given to to what's happening beyond that. And your take, do you suggest companies hire? I mean, obviously, you're a third party, but and I have a view, which I know folks have heard.

[00:13:15] But do you suggest this as people go through this first process in Europe in particular, because maybe it changes for the US, that they use a third party, especially on the legal front? I would say that, yes. I think if you're a small organization and you have access to good processes through, I'm thinking, say, of a nonprofit and within that nonprofit environment,

[00:13:40] there are access to robust systems to support you, then there's no reason why you should involve a third party. You could do it. If you've got 30, 40 employees, you could probably do it yourself. You have the confidence. Once you get above a thousand employees, it gets much harder. And particularly if you've got multi-jurisdictional locations as well, I think it's much harder. So, yes, I think it is necessary to get extra support. Yeah, I mean, that's kind of my opinion.

[00:14:07] I think the confidentiality of having, and this might be an American view, of having legal counsel as you go through and find things out for the first time, that's really important because you don't want that to be public or someone to go out and make it public because you have some time to fix it. And so the problem that you first have, you know, could be not good. And you want to keep that kind of, you know, under wraps until you start working the problem.

[00:14:34] So from the time that you start leveling and going through and you run, you know, the process, you know, you put them in cohorts and then you run, you know, your regression, et cetera. How long does that usually take you to give the company an answer around kind of, hey, here's where you are and here's where your problems are?

[00:14:52] Not on the question, but very roughly, it would take a couple of months, but not necessarily, definitely not daily activities, but just being on the sides and supporting,

[00:15:06] getting the process set up at the beginning well and then supporting through the job leveling, through the pay equity pieces and then supporting with comms and then pay governance after that. So, yeah, it can be done relatively quickly. It depends on your employee numbers and the jurisdictions you're in. So let's talk about, though, the one step that I would consider in between.

[00:15:31] So we've got our job levels, we've gone through and, you know, high nerd factor on what type of regression modeling we want to use, you know, done all that work, done our results and got those out. The remediation piece. So what are some keys when you're talking about organizations and how they remediate over what period of time? Do they do it with or without their current comp planning cycle, you know, as separate and intermixed the two?

[00:15:58] Like, what have you seen there around remediation? Yeah, I've seen a couple. Well, there's a very public one where they actually reduced male salaries to get the funds to uplift the female salaries. And that's the BBC in the UK. And that caused a lot of upset for obvious reasons. But they did. They did do it.

[00:16:21] I actually am going to have to change my entire sphere when I'm out speaking to associations that I have never heard of anyone reducing pay. So now there's one. Yeah. Yeah. I can't find my book now. Yeah. It went down badly. It went down really badly. I'll send you the links. It's a carry. That's, I can't, well, to be fair, I guess that's how I would have expected it to go.

[00:16:50] That's why I've seen someone's done it. Like, I can't imagine it went well. So, okay. Okay. I'll send you the link afterwards. Because I have got a memory. The others I've seen are struggling with budgets. I know of one case with a Swiss-based company where line managers said we haven't got the money to do a salary round and do pay remediation. So they had a separate budget for that.

[00:17:18] But that's not that often. Most are just struggling with the budgets they've got. And from a timing standpoint, I know it's a little bit of it depends. But the reality with the EU, with the directive coming, do you suggest they tackle it soon or do you try to remediate over two, three, four pay cycles? Remediate now.

[00:17:48] And you do one lump sum. To those people who've been underpaid, it sends a very clear signal that something was wrong. And I do know of someone who got 100% uplift when the gender pay gap was introduced in the UK. Gender pay gap reporting was introduced in the UK. And she happily took it. But she did have question marks about it. So in an ideal world, you smooth that through and do exceptional increases on a regular basis, you know, as the pay review goes through.

[00:18:17] But reality is, I think we may find that some companies struggle for time. I'm a little biased on that front from the standpoint. And we can talk about where else you see tech, because I think tech has a lot of places in here. But it also has a lot of not places or places where you can't just lean 100% into tech. But the ability to set up your merit matrix based on performance and position and range and basically tackle the first cycle or two.

[00:18:46] So one of the things I've talked about is moving from an annual cycle to two or three or four cycles, because you can kind of hide that money to your point of it doesn't look as bad as one lump sum if it comes in little pieces. It's small pieces of excitement versus one large question mark. But the other piece is if I do adverse position and range, if by default women were lower in the range for that same performance, you'll continue to throw money at them before you get to a point at which you'll have to do it.

[00:19:15] You know, you're going to get towards the finish line and have to cover that at some point. But you can basically create a wide spread and still give men something pretty close to red circling, but not. But that's one place I think tech can really help because it's not tenable to do that for every person in a thousand, a five thousand, ten thousand person shop without tech. Are there other areas where you've seen technology really be helpful, specifically in pay equity where, you know, that might not have been used before?

[00:19:47] And you'll be closer to this than me. It's kind of bringing it all together. So kind of having that whole overview from job levelling or starting with job descriptions, job levelling, benchmark data where needed and then internal equities as well. And all that piece across across the whole tech piece is really for some companies is probably too simplistic because you're you're kind of streamlining the whole thing and you're dependent on only one provider, for instance.

[00:20:16] But but sometimes it gives you a good overview and a simple overview sometimes. Have you seen companies struggle to pull the data in? Because I think that's the other piece. Right. So with this unknown aspects, specifically in Europe, in my mind, you know, you can have companies of not a huge size, you know, a thousand employees or less in 10, 12 countries.

[00:20:41] And have you how have you seen them trying to tackle that issue of just getting all my roles and getting all my data in one place, including pay? Yeah. Yeah. I did a close study with Nova Nordisk and they taken a good while to get all their base pay together and then to then move on and collect their what the European Union called complementary, which you and I know as benefits.

[00:21:06] Collecting that data was the next element. And also then the variable, which hopefully should be easier because it's share plans and incentives. But when you start to add in commissions, it starts to get a bit messy. But yes, that's that whole area is is taking a lot. They're a big organization, but but others are in similar situations. Is the current the current is it one year total cash for the current mandate or is it the directive? Is it one year total cash or is it just base pay?

[00:21:37] Base pay. Yeah. But basic pay, which you then which is then country by country. Yeah. Based on the local legislation and then variable and then complementary. And do you see I mean, this is the other place where I think legal precedence is going to catch up. Right. So those who want to be biased will be biased and do bad things.

[00:22:02] And so if I get the base pay set, but you and I are equal performers and I decide that since I'm an old older white male, that I'm going to get more shares than you or I'm going to get a larger bonus because there's manager discretion involved. You know, do you see legislation catching that up over time? I think so. And unless unless it's an organization, you know, we have we have a robust system and your performance is outstripping mine.

[00:22:30] And, you know, there is a good, solid reason why you've got more share awards than me. If those are in place, then there's no argument. It's having that robustness and clarity of decisions rather than just I quite like you more than I like the other person. Yeah. Well, the unexplained pay gap. Right. I mean, unexplained politically correct term. But, you know, it's the unexplained pay gap, which is, you know, bias effect.

[00:22:58] I also think there's you know, I do think some of the pay equity and the pay equity work is going to help managers as well. With things like the recency effect where, you know, Sean hasn't done a good job for 10 months, but the last two months I finally did a good job. And so in my mind, he did a good job. But, you know, get rid of some of that because Rachel might be a good performer throughout the year and we shouldn't actually have the same performance rating if we have some solid tools, et cetera.

[00:23:27] And so it all comes kind of come back to, I think, with this all measuring, well, what is the same work, you know, the same performance? Yeah. Yeah. There's still some fundamental issues there. And just like just like the merit process, managers aren't dumb. And, you know, I think we're going to have to keep try to keep up with them as they try to gain the system that are on performance or around OKRs or whatever it is. Well, that's the other thing that's that will be an impact.

[00:23:55] Like there's a lot of evidence from academia that I come to you, you tell me what the range is and I say, oh, yeah, but how about you give me this on the side and this and this little goodies to kind of attract me? And you want you want the candidate because they're really going to make a difference. And it's hard to say no, but this is going to it's going to be a tension. And that's why I'm saying trying to provide some governance up front will help manage that longer term.

[00:24:20] Yeah, I think even even some common practices where, you know, if I'm at 100 percent range penetration, right, I'm at the I'm at the top of the range. I don't give a I don't give a merit increase. I give a bonus that year. Right. Until until my ranges change. That's really my salary for that year is just not the change. And that's not going to be tracked in here. And so, you know, the ability to kind of do that still is going to have issues until we can track all that. So I think there's going to be I think it's great.

[00:24:47] I think it's just going to be you're going to have gaming the system on one side and you're just going to have the fundamental. How do I track all this and actually do the math correctly? And I think the last thing I'd be curious, not the last thing for you, but the other piece of this that I'd be curious about is how are you educating HR teams and total rewards teams around the regression process and what it means? Because it's not basic math. You know, it's not overly complex, but are you seeing them struggle with a little bit of a black box going, you know, data going in and data coming out?

[00:25:18] Absolutely. And I think I think there's also a distrust because you kind of like this is the data I saw and this is the data you've got now. And how have you got there? And until you start to kind of personalize that data process, it's it takes it takes quite a leap of imagination or statistical comfort to really do it sometimes.

[00:25:41] So, yeah, sometimes trying to personalize it and take an individual and show them how they were impacted by regression is a real key way of getting that done. Yeah. Yeah. And it struck me the last couple of weeks where it sounds like the worst conversation ever for probably some people. But, you know, talking to someone about, you know, law of linear versus like blender, Oaxaca and the differences. And then you realize that's two statistical nerds, you know, working through this and the complexities of it.

[00:26:06] And if I'm a person that's running comp for, you know, 750 person shop somewhere like. They want to feel comfortable that it's defensible because of them going to make paid decisions based on this. And so how do they get their head around that? So moving to the last piece, which I think is going to be what are the big communication items you you're really getting companies to get their heads around? And how do you see that best tackling that? Because this is I'm old enough to remember, at least in the US, where you couldn't talk about pay.

[00:26:36] Like as an employee, you just couldn't. And so it's very interesting now where companies and compensation professionals who didn't have to deal with this are now in charge of communication. What are you seeing is the, you know, two or three, four key critical items? Yes. One of the key items is this desire to ask people what they're currently earning an interview. And that's no longer going to be possible to record people's salary history.

[00:27:08] And Novartis, a Swiss based company, it took them three years to get to get that out of the recruitment process. And that's one company that really concentrated on it. And I think moving that mindset is going to be very hard because I think it is your starting point for any negotiation. It won't be. It shouldn't be. But that's the reality is people are used to practices like that. So that would be one one way.

[00:27:32] I think as well. When when you start to have line manager discussions, the first thing for me is to remember that line managers are employees first. And, you know, the first question they'll ask themselves is, OK, so what? How does this affect me? And if you can't answer that question before you start trying to train them, you lose them.

[00:27:55] And it's a waste of everybody's time. So that kind of doing the employee first bit before you do the line manager response and then giving them tools to empower them. Because I don't know about you, but my experience of the worst answer is HR told me to tell you this. And it doesn't help anyone. It's, you know, keeping that cabinet responsibility within the within the line manager group so that they understand and can have coherent discussions.

[00:28:24] So those are some of the things I've come across where, yeah, try and try and get the best for employees and for everyone concerned. I think for me, like hearing you say that, I guess, and it's probably a better set than I've said it is their employees first, because I usually say they weren't hired for that reason. Right. So actually, they're an employee for something else. I don't think most employees enjoy or want to have a pay discussion in their entire life.

[00:28:51] So I think the communication is a huge opportunity, actually, to to help managers or in the past there was a 20 page PowerPoint given many weeks away and then given a blank slate to give out merit. And I think doing it very formulaically and communicating the strategy inside of the tools that they have and not not just saying HR said so. But if HR communicates out to all employees that this is our pay philosophy and it's when they talk and say, you know what, Rachel, you're in your this is your performance.

[00:29:21] This is where you were in the range, which is now all fair. Right. Now you can actually tell people that because it used to be a no. And here's your increase because of that. And here's your your bonus, which is calculated this way. I think it takes some of that pressure off of them while still throwing comp under the bus at some level because they came up with a strategy. Right. Right. And so I think I think that's actually going to be really good.

[00:29:45] The other thing I'd be curious if you've suggested or talked to is I've suggested to a lot of companies, they go to their marketing department. One reason being serious and one joking. The joking reason being if marketing can understand what you're saying, everyone can, you know, because they're not in comp and, you know, they're all the people out there in the marketing. But the other thing is they're very well versed in writing and communicating something in a very short amount of time because that's their goal.

[00:30:13] And so if you get them on board to help you, they're literally inside your company and that's their job to do that. And so, you know, starting to leverage that at least as a run buyer to clean things up. Yeah. And I'm sure, as you say, and also just what you've touched on, having that feedback and conversations with people, because I know from my own experience, I've done this a couple of times.

[00:30:37] You make assumptions, you make, you know, and we've talked about regression analysis, you know, we're in our own little world and we think these things everyone understands. And then you start to talk to people and they're like, what is she on about? And having, you know, the more you talk to people, the more you realize how little you understand that they need to know and kind of moving that forward. So, yeah, it's a really great tip. Well, you know, I think it's if you're in Switzerland, you might be multilingual.

[00:31:03] Right. So, you know, you have to be multilingual between comp and normal human being, I think, is what's going to end up happening here. Because the pay equity piece is actually pretty complex when you start talking about how many standard deviations and and the regression models and all that. And you have to translate that down to somebody who really wants to tackle this once or twice a year. A lot of managers are new. So I like, though, that I might steal that one as well. The you know, they're an employee first, actually, for something else.

[00:31:32] So I guess, you know, two two quick last questions. So the first, I guess, one would just be, you know, any any quick advice out there is when to get started or how to get started. Words of advice for anybody pondering this? They get started as soon as you possibly can. I wouldn't I wouldn't wait till till the deadlines, you know, in the calendar for the get going now and make it a smoother process as you can,

[00:32:02] because teams are already overstretched and they're not sitting around on a bank waiting for for work to come in. And I think. Yeah, that would be that would be my big tip. Just get going. OK. And then the last thing I ask everybody doesn't have to be pay equity or pay transparency. If you could automagically fix one thing in H.R., what would you tackle first? You wave a wand, I guess.

[00:32:28] Yeah, I don't think H.R. gets the respect it deserves. And one of the reasons it doesn't get that respect is because it doesn't understand the cost of people and the dynamics that that has on the business. And for that to happen, I think H.R. needs to be more business orientated, understand some of the accounting principles.

[00:32:49] I'm not talking about, you know, details, tax law, for instance, but just understanding profit and loss, balance sheet, cash flow. And and I think if if for me, if H.R. could do some of that, I think it can take itself to the table as which is always the expression. But if you don't, you haven't really got much to participate and say, apart from how you think employees are going to react. So that's my magic wand item for H.R.

[00:33:18] I'm not sure if it's. I actually think that's one of the ways by understanding the business fundamentals and who's important in their business, they'll be able to stretch merit much further. So if I'm an engineering firm, then the accountants are less valuable. Sorry to the tax people, you know, than the engineers. And so that's where I'm going to spend and create because, again, with tech technology, I can segment that out and give engineers more money.

[00:33:43] But actually, if you go and it's an accounting firm, you know, a tax firm, then accountants should be making the most and have the most increase. And that's the most important asset that you have for humans. And so I need to I need to split that out. And so those business fundamentals, I think, you know, are really important in understanding what really drives and who drives the business. Yeah, this is great. So I appreciate it. As we post this out, we will we'll make sure Rachel's contact information is out there.

[00:34:13] We'll tag this obviously out on LinkedIn and she should be easy to get. And, you know, do you give skiing lessons to when when people show up? Yeah, we do snowshoeing. OK, we do snowshoes, snowshoe tours as we go out. This has been great. I really appreciate your time. It gives us another unique perspective. Somebody from, you know, actually out in Western Europe. A lot of our folks have been from the U.S., obviously. So this has been great. I really appreciate it. I really enjoyed it. Thank you.