Totally Rewarding Chats | Ep. 23: Tackling Total Rewards in Small and Mid Sized Orgs

[00:00:08] Alright, it is another totally rewarding chat. I have Lori Glaude from Aurora Business Solutions with us today. How's it going? Great! How are you? Good! I am, you know, and where are you today? Are you in South Carolina? Today I'm in South Carolina and it's a little chilly today. I don't even want to hear it because I'm sure it's not as chilly as New England. And you also, for those who don't know Lori,

[00:00:35] she's telling us it's chilly and she has relocated to South Carolina from New Hampshire. So does that mean you're acclimated to the weather? Yes, because they try to avoid going back to New England when it's down in the single digits. Okay. Do you miss shoveling snow? Some interesting questions. Do you miss shoveling snow? No. No. Okay. I haven't met anyone who misses that. Anything about that. No.

[00:01:00] No. No. So, to start with, just so I don't ruin it and make mistakes, give us your background. And I know you're the CEO, founder of Aurora Business Solutions, but tell us kind of what you guys do and also, you know, kind of how you got there. Sure. Well, the long version of the story is I got into HR due to a conflict of interest.

[00:01:26] And so the company I was working for said, we're going to stick her in personnel. That's how I found HR about 35 years ago. And I love it. And so for the last 35 years, I have built my career dealing with complex people issues. If it's tethered to your employee, I address it. And so I started Aurora back in 2011. And I work with clients on all things human.

[00:01:53] So whether that's unwinding a benefits package or creating a benefits package to recruiting, to developing people, which is my favorite part of what I do for a living, to solving problems. And my specialty is working with small and mid-sized organizations with a particular set of skills for retail. Okay. Which is really being compressed right now.

[00:02:20] And so I'll help clients, whether it's building a handbook to building a team. So I will start with, I know you're a fellow AARP carrying person when you started in personnel. When you started personnel, there's a line of age that I don't know what the official, every time I say this, I want to Google, but I want to go back and Google when the term personnel stopped. But you know, people have been around the industry a long time when they're like, well, I was in personnel.

[00:02:50] Which is actually interesting because if a client calls and they want services and they use the word personnel, I pause and say, I'm not really sure I'm the right one for you. But not only is personnel gone by the wayside, human resources is changing its image too. So we're seeing titles come up like people and culture or people leaders. And it's, it's really evolved since when I stepped into this role. Yeah. We won't ask what year.

[00:03:19] It was a few years ago. Yeah. But you were four, you know. Yeah, I was four. Yeah. We'll go with that. I was a really, really early learner. So I always ask people for what they do for fun outside of work, kind of like the human capture piece of it. So what do you do for fun or a hobby outside of work? So I have lots of hobbies, one of which is I study wine and not just consuming it, but really formal education.

[00:03:48] When I had a major milestone birthday, I said, I need to add something to my bucket list, which is to keep learning, but not what I do for a living. Yeah. And so for the last several years, almost eight years now, I have been in wine classes, learning about regions, how to make wine, where it comes from. So that's my fun, filled a bucket of learning. And then the other hobbies that I love to do, I love to fish.

[00:04:18] I love to dive. I'm a certified diver. That was a recent accomplishment. And being soft, that makes more sense, you know, for diving. The weather is in the eighties when you're down 60 feet underwater and fishing and boating and all things outdoors. Well, that I can get my head around. That is a fact. Yeah. So the way we get you warmed up before we jump into kind of the main stuff will be a speed round.

[00:04:47] So this is a little new, but you ready? So just to get your brain going, are you a coffee or tea person? Coffee. All right. That's good. Not that I don't like tea people, but. So number of merit cycles you think is ideal per year for a company? Four. Okay. Are you a camping or spa person? Camping. Okay. Do you prefer the term comp ratio or range penetration?

[00:05:17] Range penetration. And the last one and the most important poll question, because I take this around the country, crunchy or creamy peanut butter? Crunchy. This is so divisive. Like, really? You said that? Like, so I will say the average. The other choice. I see. This is so, this is so funny. Nationally. Um, everywhere I've done this year, creamy is probably two thirds, three quarters. Right. But when I was in Denver, I don't know a while ago.

[00:05:45] Um, it was like three quarters crunchy. And I'm like, wait, what? Um, like it was such an anomaly, but, um, there are very few people. I pointed out one guy in a, in a presentation who he's like, I don't know. I'm like, that's so weird. Cause most people, you know, it's an easy choice. They're, they're not like, ah, whatever. Yeah. No. Okay. Almond butter because it's a little crunchier. Okay. So you like the crunch. It's all about the crunch, the crunch.

[00:06:14] So the reason I wanted to catch up with you is we have, we talked to people who have work at, you know, for big companies, small companies, consultant, both, but you predominantly work in the small mid co, um, space and from a total reward standpoint. So anything encompassing total rewards, because I know you do everything. In fact, I know you're part of the, is it coastal Carolina coastal organization of human resources. I just recently joined the board there, which is the SHRM affiliate here down in South.

[00:06:44] Well, when I had the opportunity to present down there, I remember sitting there thinking, you know, total rewards is cool and comps really cool. We're going to talk about comp and they were talking about the next three or four months, um, that they had to deal with. And it was, it was like benefits enrollment, legal ramifications. And active shooter. And I'm thought, I'm such a loser getting up here to talk about comp planning. Oh, and it was one of the reasons I wanted to have you on because in small companies,

[00:07:11] it just got my head around like, it's amazing. The stuff they have to be involved in. So how do you, what are the best practices or wherever you want to go with this? How do you see companies that size setting up and managing total rewards? Because they have so much else going on. So what I'm finding is very few are making that a priority, which it's a big miss because

[00:07:36] that space is competing for talent still at an all time high. I have clients that I have had open requisitions for over a year trying to find talent. And so that is your main lever for hiring and retaining talent. And so what I tell clients is first thing, look at the market, do a market analysis, make sure you're in the market.

[00:08:03] Many of them don't have a strong command on what the market is bearing. And so they go over the market. And now that's a situation that's starting to unwind with the inflation factors and where we are in our economy, that they're making cuts because they've overpaid in the market. And then look at what other total rewards can you bring into your organization that are not guaranteed salary.

[00:08:32] So I'm talking with clients more about variable pay models, spot bonuses, structured bonuses, gain sharing, things like that, just to get talent. I often refer to it as today's market is much like the real estate market. Supply and demand. And I've got clients that have overpaid in the last since COVID that are now saying, now what do I do?

[00:09:01] I'm going to have to lay off. And I'm like, well, you don't want to be doing that. So let's find some other ways to cut your expenses down. It's interesting on the overpaid because in the market analysis, one of the things I've seen with small companies, I think is a mistake. Is they get really wound up around benchmarking themselves against companies of similar size. And theoretically, you know, statistically, it's true. And of course, every company and industry is different. So someone can message me that how wrong I am.

[00:09:31] But, you know, typically, you know, the pay goes up with the company size, maybe not a lot, depending on the role, whatever. But and so I've seen more companies underpaying or trying to work the wrong problem when they're small. So they benchmark themselves for an accountant or, you know, whatever roles against other companies under 100. And they keep losing people and they don't tackle the comp problem or total rewards problem because like we're paying at 70 percentile. And you're like, well, you're paying at 40 percentile to the entire market.

[00:10:01] And so they start working the problem of, well, it's not pay. So I've seen that. And I don't know if you've seen any of that. And I guess, you know, any advice you have as they market price as a small company versus a large company. So I do think it is relative, but it's also very specific.

[00:10:19] So, for example, an accountant in a CPA firm carries more weight from a compensation standpoint than accountant for an engineering firm that specializes their revenue comes from engineering. So when you have a limited pool of money, how are you going to divide up that compensation? You need to lean into what's bringing you what's your product. So CPA, that is the product.

[00:10:46] And an engineering firm, it's your engineering capabilities that's the. Is your product. So that's part of the equation. But the other part of the equation that I've started to see a trend with is there's a lot more movement from companies that are unfairly paying. And what I mean by that is and I tell clients you cannot do this. It's it's unfair to your employees and it's causing the cycle.

[00:11:14] So the ones that have underpaid for a long period of time, those are the folks that are starting to reenter the market. Because that same companies, many of them, when they have an opening, they're going after that top person and they're they're paying new hires more than their existing hires. Yeah, the compression issue is real. I think if they haven't. It really is.

[00:11:37] And so what I advise them to do is fix your inequities within your own four walls first before you start hiring people in, because then you your talent that you've developed, that you've underpaid is going to walk away and it's just going to make your problem worse. So when I'm working with clients around the market, I'm hyper aware of what is where you are, what your plan is. Some organizations in the tech space, we're going to lead the market.

[00:12:07] Some like the market and some match the market. So from a total compensation, let's look at everything. If you're going to lead the market, are you going to lead the market in benefits? You're going to lead the market in your flexible work options. How are you going to lead the market in the other areas? And can you afford to do that? That's part A, but know what your plan is. Where do you want to be? Everybody's in is different.

[00:12:36] And then the other big shift and you probably see this is demographics. The rates in the Northeast are significantly higher than the rates down here in the South. And the rates on the West Coast are higher than they are in the mid-Atlantic. I don't know if you're seeing that, but I certainly see that. So relocation for people to come here is being challenged. Is it challenged or are they actually looking to relocate? Because that's a whole other topic around, do I pay COLA?

[00:13:06] How do I pay remote workers? Do I pay them based on their regional, you know, salary expectation? Or do I pay them on corporate or HQ? Do I use a COLA on top of that? And each business looks at it differently. I mean, prior to working with small businesses, I worked for a very large national organization. And we looked at each market and built a comp model in each market. So it was where the person lived for remote workers.

[00:13:36] So where do you start building a comp model for a small company? So a large company, maybe it's the same. I actually, to be honest, most of my career has been software to large companies or at consulting firms that focus on large companies. When you start building that comp model out, you've got companies that are small. And so a job architecture is a little sometimes tricky because you've got one or two people in a role.

[00:13:57] Or how do you start tackling that problem of setting up, setting themselves up or evaluating where they actually are so that you can do a professional job of setting up their compensation structure? So in all cases where my clients have asked that request, I started in the same place. Let's look at your organization structure first. Let's look at the functions that you have people doing.

[00:14:25] You can't benchmark something based on a title. It doesn't work that way. I mean, well, let me rephrase that. You can. I just don't advise it. You know, let's look at how you're functioning. Let's look at how revenue comes in. Revenue goes out. What what functions drive your business? Let's start with that. And then what I look at is what their current compensation is.

[00:14:48] And quite frankly, with small or midsize companies, particularly small, there's no rhyme or reason why they're why they have disparities. And I've actually worked with clients who say, I just pay whatever they ask for. Yeah, that's my strategy, which creates this undercurrent of animosity when you then create inequities within your own workforce.

[00:15:14] So start looking at the structure, build that out, build out what those functions are, then go to the market and do a market based compensation. Something very simple. You take the market, you take the midpoint of the market and you build out yours and you pick where you want to be. Do you want to lead the market, match the market, like the market? What is your strategy?

[00:15:38] And then I take that midpoint, watch that closely and then go back and build out every job function, giving, reducing compression. I mean, one of the problems I see in small businesses that large businesses can get away with is layering. So you'll have 40 people and seven layers. Yeah. So that last person is so compressed, you don't, you're out of the market.

[00:16:08] So those are the types of conversations I have with clients that want to start building that out. Like I said, large, thousands of people working there. It's a very different model. Each one of those little policies exist in every market that we do business in. Do you see small companies struggle with the job title, inflation and then evaluation? Like, is that because I'm always curious, right?

[00:16:33] The vice president of development, a small company will try to argue that they're the same as the vice president at Red Hat for development. And actually, they might be paid more because they do more with less. You know, they'll start to get on that train. So do you see that with small companies? Because that, you know, you're like, hey, I'm a vice president. You're like, well, actually, in the market, you're a director. Exactly. And that's why we go by to go right to the functions.

[00:17:00] People are that's becoming more and more of a conversation. But I say, but because if you're looking at it before you have that conversation and communicating what your policy is and being very transparent about it, that takes that off the table. But I'm saying unrealistic, even unrealistic expectations.

[00:17:25] Look, I just graduated from college and I want to make $90,000 a year because people with my knowledge can do that. And it's no, you need that experience, too. So you look at experience, you look at functions. And then I always have that conversation back to, well, you only have this much of a percentage of your sales that you can allocate to wages.

[00:17:51] I mean, at the end of the day, every organization has to be profitable. Even nonprofits have to pay their bill. That's just a tax state status. You still have to be able to do that. Well, if you're Microsoft and you're a 25 employee based startup software company, you don't have the same resources. You also don't have the same responsibilities and scope.

[00:18:19] And I know when I look at designing a compensation, the levers that I look at is how much people leadership do they have? Leading people gives you more equity in your job, your technical knowledge, but your financial impact. What are you what are you responsible for the business?

[00:18:38] A senior vice president of Microsoft, I'm just using Microsoft, has far more financial impacts and probably more direct reports than somebody who's in a startup 25 company.

[00:18:52] And so when you have those candid conversations and you say it's not just what you see out on salary dot com or you see and I know you you address this beautifully in our session back in April is they you've got these these ranges.

[00:19:10] So somebody will post a job 100,000 to 300,000 that you can't have, you know, and so people see that and think that's what I'm worth because I saw it on LinkedIn. But they only read one half of that. Right. That's a human nature. Yeah. Yeah. But so they're seeing that and they're thinking that's the reality. So my style has always been let's talk about all the pieces that go to making that decision, what your employer can afford to pay.

[00:19:42] So we're aligning it to the business. We're kind of getting these structures in place or marketing to the price and then we're determining our strategy. I guess I always use the term that's rainbows, unicorns, blue skies or the particle at the end kind of consultancy stuff. What do you see the biggest hurdles or where do you see consistent challenges for companies from? OK, I see what you want to do, but we can't get from point A to point B because of these things. What are those? Talent shortage is number one.

[00:20:12] Number one still is on the in my entire book of business is still the number one challenge. Profitability compression. Profitability compression is number two. And so it's comes down to we've got to fit these. So what in a smaller under 100 and 200 employees, you've got to make some tough decisions.

[00:20:36] You still have to have that structure of what you're willing to pay and what are you willing to let go of? So that maybe look at how rich your benefits are. Can you still be rich in benefits and rich in salary? You can't do both in a lot of cases. And then start looking at those the reasons people like to work here.

[00:21:01] So I'm focusing more on retaining people than hiring more and what that cost is and bringing that to the table and talking about if you lose these people, this is what it's going to cost you. And this is what's going to cost you to replace them. So tackling that from a very pragmatic approach that you got to think about all of these little steps if you want that. Have you seen some cool?

[00:21:31] Have you seen some companies? I mean, the thing with small companies that can be creative. Have you seen some kind of cool? I'll call them total rewards. So maybe not comp, not Ben. Have you seen some cool total rewards items for people to ponder that aren't in the normal suites that small companies are leveraging? So some big things that I'm seeing, I say big, last few years is how you get, first of all, remote work arrangements is the number one new carrot. That's everywhere.

[00:22:01] That doesn't work for a lot of organizations. You're starting to see people getting back into the office, but unlimited PTO is a new one. And I would like to see where that comes out on the other end, but I'm starting to see unlimited PTO, creative benefits in a one-stop shop. So if I go to work, I know I have an opportunity for student debt consolidation.

[00:22:30] That's new, up and coming. I can get all of my ancillary care, the things that I would normally buy, my auto insurance, my life insurance, all of that consolidated. I'm starting to see more options in healthcare, a lot more options in how people can pick their health plans right down to telehealth being now introduced as an employee benefit.

[00:22:56] You know, instead of going to your PCP, you use a telehealth for the things that you can and get prescriptions that way. I'm seeing, obviously, remote working arrangements. Hybrid arrangements is another one. But it's an attitude to making the workplace a destination that I want to be at. And I consider this rewards and it's been very successful in retention is looking at your culture.

[00:23:24] Is it when I go to work, if it's hard work and there's no fun, that's hard work. If I go to work and it's hard work and it's fun, it's play. And people want to play. So what are you doing inside? Because I think one of the things that one of the things small companies have a better potential to handle and influence is culture. Oh, yeah. No doubt. Because large companies, you can influence it. And I know people are going to tell me, you know, you can't, but it gets harder and harder. It just becomes more corporate by default.

[00:23:54] And you can still have a better corporate culture than another corporate culture. But I do think that culture, creating a, you know, family-type atmosphere and we're all in it together thing. Small companies have a huge advantage over that. And when you think about total rewards, I think how you put a value on that and find people to fit that is really, you know, important and something to sell. Because I think, you know, I've told people out in the space, they're like, oh, I want to go somewhere with a better culture.

[00:24:23] I'm like, well, how much is it worth to you? And then I'm like, well, no, I think it would be worth something. I don't know, literally how much. Like actually go have a talk with yourself. It can be out loud or private. And talk to yourself and say, actually, I would take $10,000, $15,000, $50,000 less in total rewards to have a cool place to work. What's your number? Because it's, you're going to compare two jobs. And if, you know, if you're not prepared for that, it's the same thing. Same thing for companies.

[00:24:52] If you're not going to invest in the culture, are you willing to pay 10% more across the board to get new talent in? Because you're going to have to pay cash or culture. Exactly. I love that cash or culture. I'm going to have to borrow that. I really like that cash or culture. You're a hundred percent spot on. That's the one thing that a small business can control better. And so let's go back to that senior vice president conversation, right?

[00:25:20] In a culture that is a desired culture where you're treated like you're a big fish in a very small pond. I know that's cliche, but where you're part of the family, you're not traveling away from home. You're not gone on a plane somewhere in another country. That's the differences. You might have the same title, but what's your real functions that you do and what are you willing to give up?

[00:25:47] I came from a very, very, very large company. And, you know, that paycheck was fantastic. But it came with price. Yeah. No, I couldn't agree more. I think it's, you know, companies just need to figure that out. And of course, then you have to be consistent. You know, I'm joking. No company says they have really shitty culture. No one does that. So do your homework and then how do you communicate that?

[00:26:14] How do you communicate that to current employees that they actually are in a good culture? And how do you communicate it to potential employees? But you also have to kind of walk the walk once you get going. Because I do think it could be. Yeah. And then I think it's the worst. I think it's the, you know, the worst option is to say we have a great culture and then people get there because you've set the bar of expectation. And then you create some more churn. It's only true.

[00:26:37] The last thing I'm kind of curious about just as a development nerd and obviously, you know, in the HR tech space is how do you see companies, you know, large companies by default have to leverage tech in a lot of places. How are you seeing small companies think about and use technology? And I'll throw Excel in there. You know, they're the number one player in technology for most small companies, I think, in total awards. How do you see companies leveraging tech or looking at new technologies?

[00:27:07] Because they've got a different perspective because the cost and price point is different. So I think for a small and mid-sized company, a lot of them are unaware of what technology can do. And they immediately associate that with a cost. So it becomes an expense on their P&O. We can do without it. What I do with them is, and I'm doing that right now with a group.

[00:27:35] Let's unwind it because the functions have to be done. And you can do them manually and there's a cost to that or you can invite technology. It seems like yesterday applicant tracking was like the number one thing. Do you know how many small companies don't even do that? And so they're spending human capital doing what technology can do.

[00:27:59] The other thing that I think small businesses need to focus on is this workforce shortage problem. Another avenue is inviting technology, whether it's AI, whether it's systems, the compensation conversation that we had not so long ago. The work that I do outside and using a tool that they're going to do is all manual.

[00:28:28] And so you're, you are paying for it. You're just paying for it in a different way. And so really helping mid-sized companies see that ROI. Everybody always wants to look at it as a cost. They look at consultants as a cost. So if you can demonstrate or they can see, you know, this saves me money in the end. But then as we evolve and it becomes more and more digital.

[00:28:55] Is that a dated word digital? If it becomes more in the digital space, like recruiting. There's a lot of digital recruiting happening now. And Microsoft and large companies have resources to do that. Medium sized companies still struggle with getting there. And they need to. Yeah, I think from what I've seen, I think there's a couple of things that I know you've heard me get on this soapbox. But, you know, what do you what do you actually want to do? You know, what do you what are you trying to do?

[00:29:25] And don't think about the process that you're doing. So, you know, we can use recruiting, you know, as an example, like what type of people do you not the steps you're going through now, but actually, how do you want to get them in? How many a year? How do you want them in? Where are they going to turn over? How long do you want them to stay? Like, think about those things and then think about your current process as well as what tech can do, because there are going to be times at a company of 100 people where Excel or doing it with a human is fine.

[00:29:53] And then there's going to be times where you're going to look at a process and be like, we could do this so much better with technology. And that's the place where you look at ROI. I do think the other thing companies don't do at that size because they have a million things to do is but they have a cool opportunity is to start thinking analytically. Because if you've got 100 people, you can evaluate turnover in a spreadsheet.

[00:30:16] And not that I'm, you know, a huge proponent of spreadsheets for life, but you can start to get a handle on what analytics matter to you so that when you start to look at technology, because I just think all tools should have some analytics. I mean, you want to measure, am I doing better or worse? I mean, just pick whatever you do. Like that's really what analytics are telling you. I had a theory. Maybe you don't want to know if your theory was good. Maybe that's why they're not using it sometimes. But, you know, I had a theory of what's going to work and what I wanted to do.

[00:30:42] I put something into practice and I want to measure it again and see. And with 100, 200 people, you can take a manual process and say, you know, do it in a spreadsheet, do some simple math and be like, okay, these analytics are good. And then as you expand, you can keep using those measurements. Everything should be measured. And that's what I tell my clients. Everything. It's so tied together now, like your turnover is tied to, you know, talent acquisition.

[00:31:09] I used to help me use my soapbox on this one is, you know, they're usually measured on time to fill and number of recs. And so don't you really want to measure them on success of candidates, how long they stayed, their impact on the business, et cetera? Because actually they might do less recs over a period of five years if they're actually making better hires that are more impactful to the business, should that not be it. And we have the ability to tie all those things together now across, you know, the human resource analytics.

[00:31:38] Before, I think it was just too hard. And especially for small companies, pulling data out of multiple systems was while they had day jobs, you know, was ridiculous. And I have a lot of conversations people don't know. There's two pieces they don't know. They don't know what their turnover rate is. And you can, I create, and I have a self spreadsheet that I help them get, at least get started with of all the pieces that go in there.

[00:32:03] So talent acquisition, from a talent acquisition perspective, just give me people, give me people. I can give you $1.4 million, $4 million, 4 million reasons why that's not a good idea. And when I worked in the mid Atlantic for a large group, one of the things we said we were going to do is solve this turnover problem.

[00:32:25] So we use data to tell us that. When you turn them over, why you're turning them over, how much did you spend, what's your breaking point for your ROI? So if somebody comes and works for you for three months and leaves, you've just fully funded all of that cost with no ROI. Or six months or a year, depending on the job. And then why? And this is where data is our friend.

[00:32:55] I was just having this conversation two days ago with a good size company. They're a retailer and they said, how many people did you lose in the last year? A thousand. That's $3.8 million that walked out the door. Well, when did you lose them? And then we narrowed it down to that first 30 days. And this is where analytics and people leadership marry up.

[00:33:22] If you lose people within 30 days, it's not about money. Yeah. Because they came to you and they said, I'll work for you for this. I know all my benefits. We have already had that conversation. I've been through my interviews. I get here and it's not as rosy as it goes back to that culture comment that you made that I don't have a sense of belonging. So now I'm talking to the competitors.

[00:33:52] So when I look at that, I say, when did they make the decision to leave? And they're like, oh, when, when Walmart or so-and-so offered them more money. I said, no, when they agreed to look. Which is somewhere within 48 hours of them starting to work for you. So data and analytics is such a big part of validating what we do in HR that if I could get every HR person that I know to grasp that idea.

[00:34:21] Yeah, I'm always curious. Do they not do it? It's a little pessimistic because they aren't capable to pull it together and don't know where to start because it is. It can be a little, you know, if you say, hey, I want to look at all this stuff and tie it together, it can be a little overwhelming to say I have to pull all this in and concatenate five spreadsheets and three data dumps and whatever. And you're like, I got a day job. Or at some level, do they not want to know? Like the ostrich method actually, you know, is actually pretty good because if I highlight problems, I'm gonna have to fix them and that's just more work.

[00:34:51] So it's super interesting. The last thing I always ask, and especially for you, because you cover like the entire gamut of HR almost, if you could automagically, you know, wave a wand and fix one thing in HR, what would you fix? For the profession or for my clients? For the profession. Oh, I've never had anyone come back with that. Okay, let's go with both.

[00:35:19] Okay, so for the profession, what I would do is I would change the mindset of many HR people, what HR really is. And it's understand how business operates. The business isn't there to serve HR, HR is there to grow the business. And so the biggest skill gap I see in our profession is people don't understand that.

[00:35:46] I can't tell you how many HR professionals that I speak with who do not know what a P&L is. Oh, okay. That's actually really good advice. Yeah, to figure out what's driving the business. And to your point, it does have practical applications beyond, I think, the altruistic piece of like, you know, the simple example of an accountant and an accounting firm is worth more than an accountant and an engineering, you know, or a widget factory. That's really good advice. That's really good advice. All right. And for the company?

[00:36:13] And for my companies and my clients is changing their mindset. That, I mean, that a lot of my clients are been around for a while and haven't grasped flexibility in your workplace is the key for your sustainability. You got to look at things wide angle and stop looking at things the way things have always been done.

[00:36:38] If you've owned your business for 30 years and you think it's back in the early nineties and you can run it that way, you're not going to be sustainable. And every client that I have to date is out of balance with generational diversity.

[00:36:59] And so I wrote an article for Business New Hampshire magazine in 2011, and the article read this, will you have qualified workers in 2020? And now clients who've read that said, how did you have such insight? And I said, one, it was math. So that goes back to the first skill I just said, you know, you can forecast what your shortage is if you do math and you look at data.

[00:37:24] The second piece though, is coming to terms that I can't run my business the way I have for the last 30 years for the next 30. So I have to think about succession planning. I have to think of who that is. I have to incorporate diversity. I have to incorporate flexibility and I have to incorporate technology. Do you realize I, a lot of my clients still have a no, no, no social media policy. I'm like, are you serious?

[00:37:53] You can have that, but you're not going to get, you're not going to be sustainable. So that's what I've fixed is mindset. So two mindsets. Well, that's awesome. That's a great answer. So I appreciate coming on. It's such an interesting perspective. And like I said, it dawned on me, you know, just when I was down there speaking, because I think, I don't know if you remember, I had people raise their hands in a size company where, and it's kind of, in theory, I married a lawyer. So I should know better.

[00:38:18] You never asked a question you don't know the answer to, but it was like, I couldn't believe how many small companies, you know, between 50 and 150 people there were. And, you know, on the fly, I was trying to figure out like, how do you make this relevant? Because obviously, you know, hey, you don't put your employees in a thousand person buckets, you know, or something, but they have 150 employees. So that's all super advice for people that are listening, watching, whatever it is. You'll be able to link over to Lori.

[00:38:46] She's super easy to get a hold of and easy to chat with. So just reach out if you have questions or want to follow up. I really appreciate it. Thanks. Well, thank you for having me. It was great to catch up.