#056 - From Reputation to Revenue: Creating People and Culture ROI (with Ken Schmidt)

[00:00:02] Employee engagement, performance and turnover are among the top pain points for leaders. Yet most companies are failing miserably to improve in these areas.

[00:00:11] Now if you're interested in being a better leader, connecting with your team on a deeper level and creating an unforgettable and high performance work environment, you won't want to miss this conversation.

[00:00:22] Welcome to The Working Well Podcast, I'm Tim Borys and today I'm excited to be joined by Ken Schmidt.

[00:00:27] As a young executive, Ken was instrumental in leading Harley-Davidson's incredible turnaround from near collapse to global dominance in the 1990s.

[00:00:36] His unconventional approach took Harley from a product first mindset to building powerful connections that redefined what it means to be a loyal, engaged customer.

[00:00:46] These days he's a sought after executive advisor, speaker and author.

[00:00:50] And in this episode, we're going to explore how those same principles that Ken used to ignite Harley's market dominance can help companies shift their internal culture and improve leadership while boosting employee engagement and performance.

[00:01:08] Welcome to the show.

[00:01:10] So great to have you here.

[00:01:12] Tim, thanks for having me, man.

[00:01:13] I'm looking forward to doing this.

[00:01:14] Excellent.

[00:01:15] Well, we're going to dive into lots of different topics, but particularly around how the experience you had at Harley and how you were able to do this amazing turnaround.

[00:01:25] Relates to companies today and internal leadership and corporate culture.

[00:01:30] So if you could give me a little bit of a background for those who might not be familiar with your background at Harley and the amazing things you accomplished.

[00:01:38] I was very, very fortunate, Tim, to be part of an exceptionally, spectacularly successful turnaround at Harley-Davidson Motor Company starting in the mid 80s through the late 90s when I left the company.

[00:01:55] We essentially took a bankrupt business that was world famous and kind of nearly killed itself with self-inflicted wounds, you know, the worst kind.

[00:02:05] And a lot of stumbling and bumbling initially in terms of goals, processes and ideas to get the business turned around, all of which were not working.

[00:02:15] And then we're able to do some very, very unconventional stuff.

[00:02:21] Certainly unconventional in the way that most businesses operate and how they think and struck gold.

[00:02:26] And this is stuff that any business can do.

[00:02:28] It's stuff any person can do to make themselves a lot more competitive, more attractive, build their reputation, instill loyalty, make the people that are important to them, advocates for them.

[00:02:38] And there's so many positive things that come out of this.

[00:02:41] Excellent.

[00:02:42] So you mentioned unconventional.

[00:02:44] Tell me a bit about what was most unconventional about that.

[00:02:48] Sure.

[00:02:49] What most I'll take it initially from the standpoint, Tim, of a product company and we're, you know, a manufacturer of product.

[00:02:56] Product just happened to be really cool motorcycles.

[00:02:59] And the mindset of that business is the mindset that I see at just about every business I go to today.

[00:03:06] And that is that we live and die by our product.

[00:03:09] And if we make a great product and sell a great product and provide service for a great product and just promote the bejesus out of that product.

[00:03:19] Well, we're going to be competitive and we're, and we're going to, and we're going to do well.

[00:03:24] And what businesses find is if you live by your product, you eventually die by it.

[00:03:32] And it's pretty simple.

[00:03:33] Why?

[00:03:34] It's because unless you have a cure for infectious diseases that absolutely nobody else has, there's nothing that you're doing as a business that somebody else isn't already doing to making something that looks similar or exactly the same or selling something or providing a service that others do.

[00:03:49] And what we found is that when competition gets tough and it's tough everywhere, if all you're known for is what you do, what you make, what you serve, you know, what to manufacture, what you ship, what you sell, you put yourself at a distinct competitive disadvantage because that's counter to how this human species of ours reacts to things.

[00:04:13] And what made everything that we did so unconventional and I'll be honest, came out of a lot of failure was the fact that instead of glorifying our product and promoting to the world what we do, we decided to start tripping basic drivers of human behavior.

[00:04:33] Filling basic human needs and doing that as a business in ways that people didn't expect in ways that delighted them.

[00:04:39] And what we found then was that we weren't competing with what we do.

[00:04:44] We were competing with who we are.

[00:04:47] And from a human behavioral standpoint, we can talk about this all you want.

[00:04:51] I'll talk about it all day.

[00:04:52] That's infinitely more attractive and more memorable to people because we're human and humanizes the business.

[00:05:00] And when we, and when the things that we think about and associate with a business have human qualities attached to them, personality, passion, energy, enthusiasm, depth, empathy, that's got nothing to do with product.

[00:05:13] That's got everything to do with the culture of the business and the people who work there, the people that are making all of that happen.

[00:05:20] So when we can harness that kind of energy that takes you miles further than marketing, you know, advertising and promoting ever could.

[00:05:30] Absolutely.

[00:05:31] And it seems so simple yet.

[00:05:35] So few companies actually do it.

[00:05:39] To that point, I'll stop you right there.

[00:05:42] Anytime I go all over the planet when I'm talking to business people about this is I,

[00:05:49] there's this moment of trepidation usually inside the brain of the CEO or the bean counter types that say,

[00:05:57] this is a, this is a little too simple.

[00:06:02] How do we attach data to this?

[00:06:06] Right.

[00:06:06] How do we make this measurable?

[00:06:09] You know, because we promote, we market and we do all this stuff.

[00:06:12] And like, that's the traditional mindset of business.

[00:06:17] And if you can't humanize a business, if all you're doing is making it about the nuts and bolts and the hardware and the processes and the efficiencies and all that other kind of stuff.

[00:06:27] This is when we humanize a business.

[00:06:29] If you need more, if you need proof, look at what Harley Harley did and how well it works and what people say about the business and how they describe it to others and how fanatically loyal they are.

[00:06:39] All this came as a result of intentionally tripping human behavioral triggers.

[00:06:44] Yeah.

[00:06:45] And it absolutely works.

[00:06:47] I love to hear you say that because for me, that's, I believe one of the biggest things missing in business today is, you know, people come businesses talk about the market and employee performance, but they, they don't.

[00:07:02] Connect the dots of what it takes for people to perform at a high level sustainably.

[00:07:08] Like, yeah.

[00:07:08] People.

[00:07:09] Companies will drive them into the ground for a quarter or a year to meet a deadline, but then it's like people burn out and they just hire more people.

[00:07:19] What, what business leaders do to that point, and it is so detrimental to the culture of a business, to the attitudes of the people that work there is they make everything about improvement.

[00:07:31] And you say, well, what's wrong with that?

[00:07:33] And well, nothing is wrong with that, but stay with me here.

[00:07:36] When all we're doing is focused on being more efficient, doing what we do faster, better, cheaper.

[00:07:43] And you look in every meeting room and on the walls and on the bulletin boards is nothing but charts and graphs and data showing how we're doing it, improving efficiency.

[00:07:51] It's just employees in those businesses get a very clear message that what we're here to do, what we're here to do is sell stuff and do it better this year than we did last year.

[00:08:03] And the problem with that, it's completely demeaning to people.

[00:08:08] It does, it does not view or allow people to look at the business way an outsider would, a customer, a potential buyer, customer or buyer doesn't care.

[00:08:18] Never has and never will about your internal knitting, how you make what it is you make and how efficient you are and how you're able to do things faster to have a better profit margin.

[00:08:28] I mean, big deal.

[00:08:29] They only care about the benefit that they're getting, that they're seeing.

[00:08:32] And they typically don't see one because what you're doing, no matter how good it is, it's pretty much on par with what your competitors are doing.

[00:08:40] Employees get disgruntled.

[00:08:42] They see a business that's always seeming to struggle and never really getting ahead or never really crushing and dominating competitors.

[00:08:51] So they say, hey, you know what?

[00:08:54] Not happy here.

[00:08:54] I can go find more success somewhere else or I can be part of a team that's more energetic and more passionate, more driven by their doing what they're doing somewhere else.

[00:09:04] And then they go to another company and they kind of run into the exact same thing because they leaders don't understand the importance of culture.

[00:09:12] They say they do.

[00:09:13] But trust me, they don't put their actions behind the words.

[00:09:16] Absolutely.

[00:09:17] Yeah.

[00:09:17] And one thing that stuck out when I was looking through your website and different materials and the three simple questions you've come up with that absolutely apply to the marketing world and customer engagement.

[00:09:33] But flipping that around internally from the employee standpoint, it is so applicable to the challenges that leaders and companies are facing employee engagement in corporate culture.

[00:09:46] If you can walk us through those questions, I think they're brilliant.

[00:09:50] On my very first day of work at Harley-Davidson, September, I think it was the 5th, 1985.

[00:09:57] It was a very, very dark time there.

[00:09:59] The week before, 40% of the workforce had been furloughed.

[00:10:04] The company had lost its lead lenders, had no access to capital.

[00:10:07] I mean, so the business was essentially on paper doomed.

[00:10:12] So I was kind of sitting down thinking, all right, what can I get people focused on here in terms of taking what we're doing successfully and doing it better, but also, you know, kind of breaking the habit of doing things that don't work.

[00:10:25] And I posted and I sat behind my typewriter, actually a typewriter back then and I banged out three questions.

[00:10:33] The questions I think are the absolute drivers of business process or should be in the three questions are, what are people saying?

[00:10:43] What do we want them to say?

[00:10:45] And what are we doing to get them to say it?

[00:10:47] Another we're saying, let's look at where we are right now and the way customers view us.

[00:10:50] What would we like them to say about us when they're talking about us?

[00:10:54] In other words, what would we like our reputation to be out in the marketplace?

[00:11:00] And what are we doing to make that happen?

[00:11:04] Because, and if you ask anybody that's running a business or in leadership at any business, and you said, well, what would you want people to say about your business?

[00:11:11] And the first words out of their mouth are always is the death knell.

[00:11:15] Well, I guess I'd like to hear people say, and I, you guess, like you don't know what you want.

[00:11:23] You would ideally like your reputation, but you don't know how you'd like to be remembered and talked about specifically.

[00:11:30] Well, there's a problem there.

[00:11:31] And then they will say, well, you know, I'd really like them to talk about, you know, the quality of our products, the quality of our service and the quality of our people.

[00:11:41] And I go, so they wouldn't say that about any of your competitors.

[00:11:45] They would only say that about you.

[00:11:47] And I say, see, these are problems that are right in front of us every day.

[00:11:52] And we look right at them, but we ignore them.

[00:11:54] Again, we're so focused on our internal knitting that we don't look at it, look at the business or think of it the way an outsider would.

[00:12:01] I mean, the most valuable asset of a business and your number one weapon in your competitive arsenal is your reputation.

[00:12:09] Well, damn it.

[00:12:10] We got to focus on that.

[00:12:11] We got to build that.

[00:12:12] We got to get people talking about us the way we want to be talked about that differentiates us from our competition.

[00:12:18] It drives people to our door because if we're not doing that, it doesn't matter how efficient we are or how good the product is.

[00:12:27] People aren't going to find us.

[00:12:28] They'll find somebody else that's selling really good stuff for less money.

[00:12:31] Yeah.

[00:12:32] Well, and these days, a lot of companies think about that.

[00:12:38] What strikes me is the third question.

[00:12:42] What are you doing to get them to say it?

[00:12:45] Yeah.

[00:12:45] It's this, hey, we had a strategy session.

[00:12:47] We went to an offsite.

[00:12:48] We came up with this differentiator or where's our market position?

[00:12:53] And then everyone gets back to the office and they go back to the normal routine.

[00:13:00] And the leaders, especially the executive leaders, aren't making those day-to-day behavioral changes, day-to-day actions that are delivering on what it is we want them to say.

[00:13:14] Okay.

[00:13:15] So what they will do is they'll say, oh, you were absolutely right.

[00:13:22] We need to focus on our reputation.

[00:13:24] So we've got our marketing people on this.

[00:13:26] And they say, no, this is not the job of marketing.

[00:13:29] The same way they'll say, well, corporate wellness is the responsibility of our HR people.

[00:13:34] No, it's not.

[00:13:36] None of these things are the responsibility of any, if it has any impact on the culture, that's number one job of leadership.

[00:13:46] The culture is everything.

[00:13:47] That's how we see you.

[00:13:48] It's everything we think of.

[00:13:50] When we think about or talk about a business, it's a reflection of their culture.

[00:13:54] And a business's culture is a mere reflection of the attitudes and behavior of the people running the business.

[00:14:01] It's always been that way.

[00:14:03] And that'll never change.

[00:14:04] And you can't divest that responsibility, you know, to a department within the business.

[00:14:11] I mean, the employees at any business since businesses started model the behavior and the language and the attitudes of the people running the business.

[00:14:23] That's what humans do.

[00:14:24] We can't not do that.

[00:14:26] So leaders who aren't very actively, very visibly, very enthusiastically modeling behavior that they want their employees to model using language that they want their employees to use are putting themselves at a competitive disadvantage because you can't ask people to say and do things that you're not doing yourself, which of course everybody knows.

[00:14:50] But at the same time, you're not making it a priority of the business.

[00:14:54] It has to be a priority.

[00:14:56] So with your experience at Harley and some of the clients you worked with, what's the, I guess, called the transmission that gets that idea creating traction, the link between those?

[00:15:10] The responsibilities and the media and product specifications and all that stuff that swims in our head.

[00:15:17] Let's take all that away for a second and just look at how the world really works.

[00:15:22] Right.

[00:15:23] Right.

[00:15:24] Because there are drivers of behavior, drivers of humanity that are common to every single person who's ever lived.

[00:15:32] And if we as a business learn how to recognize and tap into these things, we then can learn very, very quickly and easily how to exhibit behavior that human beings naturally find attractive.

[00:15:45] That put a human face on our business and in what we do that position us in the marketplace as more likable.

[00:15:56] And likability drives preference, which drives pricing, which drives everything.

[00:16:01] If I prefer you, it's for the human qualities of your business, not for the product.

[00:16:06] Or if I do like you for the product, somebody else will steal your product and make it, you know, make it cheaper.

[00:16:13] All of these things have to happen.

[00:16:15] And I always offer examples to people.

[00:16:19] And the examples I like to use come out of the Harley world because they, they, they resonate with people.

[00:16:26] And I always ask folks, I'll say, well, when you see somebody on a Harley Davidson at a stop sign or at a red light, what are they doing?

[00:16:35] And the answer is they're revving their engine.

[00:16:38] We all do it.

[00:16:39] We can't not do it.

[00:16:42] And the question is why?

[00:16:44] Well, why would you choose to do that?

[00:16:46] And I always initially thought, especially when I was coming up in my years riding Hondas, that Harley riders just did that to show that they were sort of part of this Harley thing.

[00:16:58] And that's what Harley people do.

[00:17:00] But what I came to discover is that Harley people are doing this because it's tapping into a basic human need.

[00:17:07] And what they're doing by cranking on the throttle and wasting really expensive premium fuel and wearing their, their parts down to not move is what they're doing is, you know, look at me.

[00:17:20] And if people don't look, they crack it open louder.

[00:17:23] Look at me.

[00:17:25] Somebody's going to look, right?

[00:17:27] It's a guy in the car next to you.

[00:17:28] It's a person on the bus.

[00:17:30] It's a guy sitting on the sidewalk.

[00:17:33] And when we on that bike, see somebody look at us for a hundredth of a second, dopamine is released in our brain.

[00:17:41] The pleasure drug has just been released because one of life's most inherently basic, but mostly unmet human needs has just been met.

[00:17:49] Somebody is looking at, noticing and reacting to me.

[00:17:53] I like the way that feels just for a split second.

[00:17:56] I just have this tiny little shot of delight, this little reward that I get.

[00:18:02] So I'm going to go up to the next stop sign and I'm going to do that again.

[00:18:05] And I'm going to do it again and again and again and again and again for as long as I'm alive and as long as I own this motorcycle.

[00:18:12] And what I'm proving is, is that humans, that's all of us, will seek out and faithfully return to anything that delights us until it fails to delight us.

[00:18:23] And that's what loyalty is, right?

[00:18:26] We're not here.

[00:18:27] So let's think about that from a business perspective.

[00:18:30] If we understand that loyalty is ourselves feel good about something or being made to feel good about something.

[00:18:40] I mean, anything that makes us feel good, we keep doing.

[00:18:43] It doesn't matter what it is and where you're at in your life.

[00:18:46] But if something pleases you, you remember it and go back for more of it because we're a joy seeking species.

[00:18:53] So think of that from the perspective of a, you know, a boardroom somewhere.

[00:18:58] And if I'm in a business meeting with people saying, what are you here to do?

[00:19:01] And so we're here to serve people.

[00:19:04] That's what we said.

[00:19:05] We serve people really well at Harley up until we were bankrupt.

[00:19:11] Anybody can serve this the lowest rung of expectation that you're doing what you said you would do.

[00:19:18] Well, big deal.

[00:19:18] What makes me is from the, we hear a lot about belonging these days.

[00:19:24] Harley was a company that tapped into externally and from the sounds of it internally into a culture of belonging.

[00:19:33] We belong to something special, something greater than us.

[00:19:36] And we're working hard towards.

[00:19:42] And what drives that, Tim, is delight.

[00:19:45] When people are coming back for more, we said, hey, look, what are we here to do?

[00:19:48] We're not here to serve.

[00:19:49] We're here to be a source of delight.

[00:19:51] And if we can make that our mindset, right, the driving purpose of the business is to make people feel good about themselves.

[00:20:00] Make them feel, be a source of delight for people.

[00:20:03] They keep coming back.

[00:20:04] And then we say, well, why don't we, you know, weaponize this and build camaraderie around this and socialization around this sport of motorcycling around this thing that we have.

[00:20:16] And if we've got two people with us on a Saturday and they're enjoying what they're doing, you know what?

[00:20:20] There's going to be three or four next weekend because everybody goes and tells their friends about this.

[00:20:25] Like when something pleases you, you tend to tell other people.

[00:20:29] And suddenly more and more people were showing up.

[00:20:32] And that begins to, you know, that lights a fire on their people.

[00:20:36] We got to keep doing this.

[00:20:37] We got to make this part of our go-to-market process.

[00:20:41] How many companies have their customers tattooing their logo on their body, right?

[00:20:48] It's crazy.

[00:20:50] It's, and yeah, Harley just has such a clear subculture and atmosphere around it.

[00:21:01] And that is when we see that in leaders today in organizations, they're complaining, well, why aren't my employees loyal?

[00:21:11] Why is turnover high?

[00:21:13] Why are they disengaged?

[00:21:14] Why are they disengaged?

[00:21:15] What are you doing to create an environment where they feel excited to show up to work and they feel like they belong and they feel respected and valued?

[00:21:24] It's so amazing, Tim, that the same human drivers that will provoke and inspire customer loyalty and customer advocacy, right?

[00:21:35] You know, people making recommendations to their friends.

[00:21:38] You got to, you got to get her, you got to be part of this.

[00:21:41] It's so much fun.

[00:21:42] They do such a great job of providing fun stuff for us to do.

[00:21:47] All of those drivers work for attracting and retaining employees.

[00:21:55] Our employees aren't loyal.

[00:21:56] Well, what are you doing to instill?

[00:21:59] All human, we can't not do this.

[00:22:01] We're a joy-seeking species.

[00:22:03] If you are doing things that delight us by showing an active interest in us as people, not just some, you know, corporate campaign where you're putting posters up on the wall that, you know, it's wellness month.

[00:22:15] We care about you.

[00:22:16] And that's not what I'm talking about.

[00:22:17] I'm about actively showing, showing an interest in people.

[00:22:20] But only this month because the other 11 months of the year, we don't care.

[00:22:24] We couldn't care less.

[00:22:25] Smoke them if you got them.

[00:22:26] Yeah, it's crazy.

[00:22:28] When we do that for people, they come back.

[00:22:32] And you talk to all these groups and surveys where they're asking people why they've left their jobs.

[00:22:39] And, you know, a lot of times it's because somebody else offered more money.

[00:22:42] But when you really talk to them about it, it's nobody knew my name here.

[00:22:46] I felt like I was never considered for things like promotion.

[00:22:49] You know, I work my butt off here and nobody seemed to appreciate it.

[00:22:52] And then I say, it's because nobody knows who you are.

[00:22:55] They expect you to do a good job, right?

[00:22:58] That's the paycheck.

[00:23:00] They're thinking that that's their side of the obligation is you work and we pay you.

[00:23:04] And then six months later when you've left, they wonder, well, gee, what did we do wrong here?

[00:23:09] And it's like you forgot to hit the human element here.

[00:23:11] If you want the people to keep coming back, they've got to feel welcome and wanted and awesome and spectacular and beautiful and powerful and brilliant.

[00:23:20] And, you know, all these human qualities, you know, that we all aspire to.

[00:23:26] Well, if I get the feeling that the people above me are recognizing that and working to pull that out of me and I'm seeing the same thing coming from them, I'm going to stick around.

[00:23:36] I want to see how the movie ends.

[00:23:37] Yeah.

[00:23:38] But then going back to question number three, that what are we doing to get them to say it?

[00:23:43] In my executive coaching work, I hear a lot of leaders talking about these challenges we're facing.

[00:23:51] And I'll say, well, like, do your employees know this?

[00:23:55] Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[00:23:57] And I'll say, well, when was the last time you sat down and talked to them about it?

[00:24:00] And you just hear this, like, silence and then you're like, oh, I'm not sure.

[00:24:04] And then, like, if you ask them right now, what do you think they would say?

[00:24:08] And a lot of them say, oh, they would say this and this are the things that that leader thinks they would say.

[00:24:14] Of course.

[00:24:15] Next week, after you've had your one-on-one with them, you are having one-on-ones, right?

[00:24:21] And when they come back, they're like, yeah, like, they had no idea.

[00:24:24] They couldn't.

[00:24:25] I didn't know because I never asked.

[00:24:31] The HR all-hands employee surveys.

[00:24:35] You know, please rate us on a scale of one to five.

[00:24:37] And at no point in there is the actual human voice.

[00:24:41] And very rarely in those things is humanity even reflected.

[00:24:46] Everything is kind of data-driven, data-based.

[00:24:50] And you know what?

[00:24:51] That's not the way our brains work.

[00:24:52] It's not the way our personalities work.

[00:24:54] It's not what we want from life to have everything measured by a number.

[00:24:58] Least of all, our own behavior and performance.

[00:25:01] Hey, I just got rated a three.

[00:25:03] Half the people here don't know my name, but they know that I'm a three out of five or I'm a four out of five or I need improvement.

[00:25:10] Well, those are terrible things.

[00:25:12] What does that mean?

[00:25:14] And can I explain it?

[00:25:15] And that's not happening in so many companies.

[00:25:19] It's so amazing, too, Tim, that for most people who work for a living, the only opportunity they ever have over the course of a working year to talk with their, you know, quote-unquote superior about themselves is during their performance review.

[00:25:34] This is the only time I'm actually having a personal conversation with my boss or my leader and it's done, you know, under a cloud of fear and discus.

[00:25:46] It's a performance review.

[00:25:48] Those aren't fun.

[00:25:49] I say, you know, so I say to leaders all the time, I say, instead of believing that you're getting your best input, your best input, your best information from employees during the once or twice a year performance review,

[00:26:05] why can't you just engage them in conversations about the thing in their life that's the most important to them, which is themselves?

[00:26:11] Why can't you just sit across from somebody and say, you know, what's going on in your life?

[00:26:15] They're going to tell you because they only got somebody showing an interest in me.

[00:26:22] Or if instead of saying, here's what I need to see you improve, here's what we'd like to see you do better.

[00:26:28] It's just spinning the question around.

[00:26:30] Like, where would you like to go with your life?

[00:26:33] Who do you want to be?

[00:26:34] How can we help you?

[00:26:35] How can I help you get there?

[00:26:36] Well, now this person or somebody is taking me seriously.

[00:26:40] I like that.

[00:26:41] Yeah, that's it.

[00:26:42] It still amazes me how few leaders have consistent and more importantly, effective one-on-ones with their team.

[00:26:53] I've met a lot of leaders that have one-on-ones, but it turns into tactical business work.

[00:27:01] Let me tell you more about me.

[00:27:03] Yeah, well, no, that's not what the employee wants.

[00:27:08] I was in Lithuania of all places, and a guy said something to me.

[00:27:12] It just instantly burned itself into my skull because we were talking about this, about how you make people feel important.

[00:27:20] You know, and a lot of times in really big companies is you don't have a lot of opportunities to sit down and talk with each of your 10,000 employees or even 1,000.

[00:27:29] And he said the rule of thumb when you're talking with people, especially individually, is to be interested and not interesting.

[00:27:41] And I kind of thought about it for a second.

[00:27:42] He said, oh, my God, I never heard anything expressed that way because when you're showing an interest in someone, they're going to tell you everything you could ever want to know about them.

[00:27:51] They're not, as far as, you know, you're the boss, they're the employee or they're below you.

[00:27:57] So, you know, they naturally inherently, you know, respect the position and the authority.

[00:28:03] But when you were showing, you know, that's their interest level.

[00:28:05] But when you were showing an interest in them and making them feel like, hey, you know, the more important person in this conversation right now is you.

[00:28:11] We come back for more.

[00:28:13] First, it totally humanizes you as a boss or a leader.

[00:28:17] This person likes me.

[00:28:18] This person is showing an interest in me.

[00:28:21] I'm not used to that.

[00:28:22] I like that.

[00:28:24] I will come back for more.

[00:28:25] I'll be sure to say hi and, you know, give this guy a pat on the back every time, you know, I pass him or her in the hallway.

[00:28:32] I see them differently now.

[00:28:33] That's a very underestimated value in business when people can feel that connection and feel like they are respected.

[00:28:42] See, there's no leader more dangerous than one who won't allow himself or herself to accept the soft side of their brain.

[00:28:52] The side, you know what?

[00:28:54] You are the leader and you're super smart.

[00:28:56] You did a lot of great things to get to where you are.

[00:28:59] But if you want to be truly successful and keep people and build a new generation of leaders, build respect for the business in the marketplace, have the kind of culture that everybody admires and respects.

[00:29:13] You got to plug into the human side of life of putting more human face on the business, being more approachable, being more visibly passionate, enthusiastic around the people that are working with you and for you because they're going to model that behavior.

[00:29:27] Switching gears a little bit, throughout this process at Harley, I'm sure you've faced some serious challenges along the way.

[00:29:37] What were some of the biggest challenges you faced?

[00:29:40] Oh, gee, easily.

[00:29:41] That's not the way we do things.

[00:29:44] We've done it this way forever.

[00:29:47] We've built really great stuff forever.

[00:29:50] And at that point, the company had been in business for over 80 years.

[00:29:54] So you're saying that now, you know, making great products isn't the most important thing.

[00:30:01] And I say, well, basically, yeah, that's what we are saying.

[00:30:06] It will never not be important.

[00:30:08] I mean, obviously, we need to do what we do extraordinarily well because who would shoot for anything less than that?

[00:30:15] But if that's all people know us for, all they know us for is for our product.

[00:30:21] What we're essentially doing is encouraging them to compare us to somebody else's products.

[00:30:27] And that's the last thing we want.

[00:30:28] Ours costs more, a lot more.

[00:30:31] We don't want to lose a math battle.

[00:30:34] We want them to prefer us.

[00:30:36] And the kind of the pivot point there, the thing that helps people shift their perspective is, you know, in the Harley world, everyone would always talk about the tattoos.

[00:30:47] You know, people love our stuff so much they tattoo it on their bodies.

[00:30:50] And we'd have to tell them, yeah, but we have to understand what that loyalty means.

[00:30:56] Human beings cannot be loyal to inanimate objects.

[00:31:01] It's impossible.

[00:31:02] We're not loyal to our motorcycles.

[00:31:03] We're loyal to the people who made it.

[00:31:05] See, there's a difference already.

[00:31:07] We're humans.

[00:31:09] We humanize everything.

[00:31:10] If I'm talking about a company, I always use the pronoun they.

[00:31:15] Anybody just define a company and not use the pronoun they.

[00:31:18] We don't talk about what the business does.

[00:31:20] We talk about who they are.

[00:31:21] They suck.

[00:31:23] Or they rock.

[00:31:24] They're the coolest.

[00:31:24] I love these guys.

[00:31:25] I love these people.

[00:31:26] Pow.

[00:31:28] That's human.

[00:31:29] And it's what we do.

[00:31:31] But sometimes people need a little push to get them to allow their mind to open to the point that, hey, you know what?

[00:31:39] The way I view the world is the exact same way our customers view the world.

[00:31:44] Because if I'm looking at businesses and deciding who to do business with, I'm looking for people that I like.

[00:31:50] Period.

[00:31:50] Well, why should our customers be any different?

[00:31:53] Right?

[00:31:53] Right?

[00:31:55] And because, you know, that's not really taught in school and it's typically not talked about in a business environment, people just don't think that way.

[00:32:01] And they're always hesitant to it.

[00:32:04] But when they see examples of how it works, they go, oh, yeah, shit.

[00:32:08] I get it now.

[00:32:10] So, yeah.

[00:32:12] Doing something that is new, overcoming the status quo is definitely a major challenge.

[00:32:18] On the tactical level of leadership, how did you make that transition work?

[00:32:23] I will tell you exactly how that is.

[00:32:27] Nothing happens.

[00:32:29] And the change isn't really possible in a business, especially within a business culture, unless or until the people that are running the business are enthusiastic consistently and never endingly driving the process.

[00:32:43] So, it's not effective.

[00:32:46] So, it's not effective.

[00:32:46] Now, we're going to be improving our reputation.

[00:32:50] Okay, marketing, here's what you're going to do.

[00:32:52] HR, here's what you're going to do.

[00:32:53] And the world just flat out doesn't work that way.

[00:32:56] Okay, we do what the people running the business does.

[00:32:59] Or we do what they do.

[00:33:01] We say what they do.

[00:33:03] So, until the leadership within a business is actively exhibiting and consistently exhibiting the behavior and using the language that we want people to use when they're describing our business, our people can't do that.

[00:33:16] They don't know what they're supposed to be doing.

[00:33:18] They don't even know why they're here.

[00:33:20] If five people running a business can't describe the goals of the business the same way, and very few businesses, does that ever happen?

[00:33:29] Then you wonder why your culture is confused.

[00:33:31] You wonder why you don't have a unified culture because if you guys, the people running the business, don't know consistently, hey, what do we want people saying about us?

[00:33:39] Right?

[00:33:40] What specifically do we want to be known for?

[00:33:42] Or how the heck does the person answering the phone or pushing the broom or putting the product in the box know what to say when they're asked about the business?

[00:33:51] And all of that finds its way out into the marketplace.

[00:33:54] And confusion just breeds, you know, commoditization and pricing and, you know, all the things that businesses hate.

[00:34:02] And those wounds are self-inflicted.

[00:34:04] So hindsight's always 20-20.

[00:34:09] Looking back, what gaps do you see?

[00:34:12] What would you do differently this time?

[00:34:16] Oh, geez, with the benefit of hindsight, I would not support or get behind any efforts to be promoting the what we do side of a business.

[00:34:27] It's the hardest thing.

[00:34:29] And it was the, it took a lot to reach the point where, you know, light bulbs started going off.

[00:34:37] Having a great product isn't enough.

[00:34:39] Ours is the most expensive.

[00:34:41] People expect it to be great.

[00:34:43] So the natural question that a person would ask that was considering buying a Harley or a BMW or something else is, yeah, your product is great.

[00:34:51] It should be.

[00:34:52] It's expensive.

[00:34:53] So what else have you got?

[00:34:54] Like convince me.

[00:34:55] And it's, we didn't have answers for that.

[00:34:58] I would have had answers for that right away.

[00:35:00] This would have jumped straight past the, geez, let's try to compete with, let's just try to take what we already know how to do and do it better.

[00:35:08] And say, no, we, I would have worked very, very hard to upset the apple cart sooner.

[00:35:15] Let's, let's jump right past the stuff that we know we're going to make mistakes on and get into the, the, the human side.

[00:35:21] Because that's what, that's what moves markets.

[00:35:23] And that's what drives revenue and income.

[00:35:27] Really hard to convince financial people of that until they see results.

[00:35:30] And then they go, Oh, geez, this crap's work and keep doing it.

[00:35:33] Exactly.

[00:35:34] Well, that was my next question.

[00:35:35] As I imagined there wasn't complete, uh, alignment with all the executive leaders.

[00:35:42] So how did you overcome that?

[00:35:43] Yeah.

[00:35:44] And I'll say, and that's the, the problem.

[00:35:47] Cause remember what we said up front is the, the business leaders are just so hell bent on, on data and graphs and charts and measurement, you know, all of which is important.

[00:35:59] And when I said, okay, well, how can you measure a change in attitude?

[00:36:05] How can you tell me how much more product will sell by being a more human focused business than product?

[00:36:14] There is, there's no data for that.

[00:36:16] And thank God there's no data for that because somebody figure out a way to ruin it.

[00:36:21] But they tend to, let's put the business that's already doing kind of well.

[00:36:26] It takes them a while to come around.

[00:36:28] It takes a major hiccup in the business to kind of make the discovery like, Oh, our competitors have gotten wise to what we're doing.

[00:36:36] Everybody's doing the same thing.

[00:36:37] We need to be doing things differently.

[00:36:41] Maybe we should start plugging into some of the stuff that, that Harley did or that, you know, that Ken told us that we needed to be focused on.

[00:36:49] So a lot of times it takes either failure or trouble to say, Hey, you know what?

[00:36:52] Maybe we should try, you know, skin in the cat a different way.

[00:36:56] And then everything doesn't have to be data driven.

[00:36:59] And if the senior people get the numbers people in line, then things go smoothly.

[00:37:05] I like that you brought up the existential threats to the business or the people.

[00:37:12] I've seen that that's sometimes what it takes in my previous life as a fitness and health coach.

[00:37:19] I saw clients that literally were on death's bed before they made a decision.

[00:37:26] And you're like, despite years of being told to stop smoking, then have the heart attack.

[00:37:33] And it's like, Oh, geez, I'm going to do the trick too.

[00:37:36] Yeah.

[00:37:37] And some people never change.

[00:37:38] And now from an organizational standpoint, what are, what examples did you see of that where someone just wasn't making the change in the head to?

[00:37:47] This is what we're going to do.

[00:37:49] We're going to keep going down this route of building socialization around our, our sport and our activity of getting people involved to being out in front of people of being a source of delight.

[00:37:58] Of asking them questions about how we can do what we do better in order to delight them.

[00:38:05] This isn't the desired behavior that we're after here.

[00:38:09] This is the expected behavior here.

[00:38:10] This is what we are going to do.

[00:38:13] And if you're not going to do it, you're not going to fit in here.

[00:38:17] And there were people who were hesitant or pushed back or that, you know, I'm a third generation metal bender and nobody's going to tell me how to do stuff.

[00:38:26] So it becomes obvious very, very quickly pockets within a business that aren't embracing this very, very quickly because they're the, the naysayers, the people who aren't volunteering to get involved with things.

[00:38:40] And they're also the departments where everyone's trying to get out and posting for job, applying for jobs in other areas of the company where they do see the positive change coming and want to be a part of it.

[00:38:50] And then that, and that's when this area sit downs with those, you know, area managers or functional leaders were with the CEO is you're, you're going to embrace this or you're going to embrace another job somewhere else.

[00:39:03] And that's, we can't tolerate, you know, any weakness in the chain.

[00:39:08] No, there were pain, you know, there was a little pain in there, but there was also buy-in because the things like passion and enthusiasm are very, very contagious.

[00:39:18] And when things start to click and you begin hearing very positive things coming back from the marketplace and the sales numbers are going up and, you know, we're moving toward profitability way faster than we ever had before.

[00:39:30] Magical things are happening.

[00:39:31] Well, that just lights the fire even hotter.

[00:39:33] Okay.

[00:39:34] This stuff is working.

[00:39:34] We got to keep doing it.

[00:39:35] And the people that aren't doing it are upset because they feel like they're being left behind and they're being left behind because they're, they're leaders within their function or within their department or within their teams aren't embracing it.

[00:39:47] And they want it.

[00:39:48] We all, we, we all want to work for people who, and be around people who look like they're part of something successful versus the naysayers that are dragging their feet and saying bad stuff.

[00:39:59] I think we see that quite a bit.

[00:40:01] I think we see that quite a bit today in the sense that there's still this, I guess, cohort within a lot of businesses that are the numbers driven.

[00:40:08] And someone in the organization can be putting up great numbers, but culturally they're horrible fit.

[00:40:18] But yet they stay around and they often get promoted because they are producing results for the business, but they're destroying the culture and the process, at least within their team or their department.

[00:40:31] Culture tips should not be seen as a soft word or as a dirty word or as a problematic word.

[00:40:39] Oh boy, they want us to talk about culture again.

[00:40:42] And we've never, we've never had a problem with that here.

[00:40:46] Or in our people, our voice has been very good at what they do.

[00:40:48] And that's not what culture is and never has been the way people say your business is a reflection of the culture of your business.

[00:40:56] And if they see you as a thriving, successful, awesome, kick-ass, fun, amazing business, that's your people that they're talking about.

[00:41:06] Right?

[00:41:06] And when you can get that light bulb to turn on and people's heads, again, just anyone who doubts it, say, well, let's talk about a business that you like or that you respect.

[00:41:22] Why do you like, you know, this brand of flat screen TV or why do you like this particular car?

[00:41:27] You'll, they'll start throwing out the pronoun.

[00:41:29] They, oh, they do such a good job.

[00:41:31] And you're, this is what we're talking about.

[00:41:33] So you do it.

[00:41:34] We all do it.

[00:41:36] As you're putting a human face on that, on a business that you like, you attach human qualities to it.

[00:41:42] If customers that you serve or want to serve can't do that here, they're going to go, we'll find it somewhere else.

[00:41:48] So over the past 25 years or so, a lot, a lot has changed since you left Harley and you're still working with clients now to implement some of these changes.

[00:42:01] If we do a compare and contrast what's changed and where are the gaps that still need to be closed up?

[00:42:10] Well, from a, from a business in general standpoint, that what has changed is the, is really unfortunate.

[00:42:18] And that is that this data is God thing that is just happening everywhere.

[00:42:25] And we want to roll out these new programs, but we have to continue to slice the data first.

[00:42:31] And I said, well, how many times do you have to slice the data to get to the, until you hear the answer that you want to hear?

[00:42:38] So I forgot.

[00:42:39] At some point you got to trust your instinct.

[00:42:41] You got to trust yourself and you got to trust your people, right?

[00:42:44] It just can't always be about numbers.

[00:42:46] And they always, and use the numbers as excuses.

[00:42:49] That, that I think is way more prevalent than it used to be as is acquiescence.

[00:42:55] This belief that, uh, Hey, we're in a, we're in a tough market.

[00:43:00] We're just going to keep doing what we're doing.

[00:43:02] And eventually, you know, hearts, minds, and dollars are going to come our way.

[00:43:07] And I don't, you know, where that comes from is really pretty hard to say other than we're doing well enough that my job's not in jeopardy.

[00:43:17] So I'm going to just keep on keeping on.

[00:43:21] We're going to just keep doing it the way we always have.

[00:43:22] And I'm going to lay in bed every night and wonder why we spend so much money training new people because we can't keep employees.

[00:43:30] But that's not my fault.

[00:43:31] That's because we have crappy HR people or our plant managers aren't any good.

[00:43:36] You know, I need to replace something.

[00:43:37] I say, man, man, look at where the problems are coming.

[00:43:41] Look where the solutions to the problems are right.

[00:43:44] Instead of ignoring them.

[00:43:45] And I would also say the belief that things like virtual meetings, technology, and we've got all these tools and we need to use more of them because they lower our costs.

[00:43:57] So you're, that's using them for the wrong reasons.

[00:44:00] And it's also a lot of times it's replacing human interaction and the things that people want and taking visibility away from people and not allowing them to see examples of what real enthusiasm and passion and humanity look like because they don't work in offices anymore.

[00:44:21] And none of that comes across in virtual meetings because too many businesses make it a point to not have that.

[00:44:28] Well, we have to have this meeting.

[00:44:29] So let's open the meeting right now.

[00:44:31] How about we open the meeting each week or each day at the meeting?

[00:44:35] Somebody who never talks is going to open the meeting.

[00:44:39] We're going to let, you know, Fred, you're opening the meeting tomorrow.

[00:44:41] So you're opening on Wednesday.

[00:44:43] Come up with a fun, creative way to do that.

[00:44:44] They'll do it.

[00:44:46] Here's my chance to show off.

[00:44:49] Let's show people who I, who I am outside of, you know, just the job that I do and be known for something.

[00:44:56] Right.

[00:44:56] At least shows that, you know, we're, we're putting a little emphasis on, you know, being people instead of just being cogs in a, you know, cogs in a wheel.

[00:45:04] You bring up a great point too, is that technology is the tool, how we use that tool is, is extremely important.

[00:45:11] And, and a lot of companies, I see this with the return to office mandates.

[00:45:16] Oh, we're so much better in person.

[00:45:18] And I'm like, well, over the past four years or since COVID and maybe even before people have been using these online meetings, but not using them.

[00:45:28] Well, they're just a tool to keep the current corporate culture ingrained and they're not building new tools for knowing that, Hey, humans need this interaction.

[00:45:42] And we're not in the same building.

[00:45:45] How do we create this virtual interaction?

[00:45:49] Because I've been in meetings that are amazingly productive and I connect with people, strangers that I've never met before.

[00:45:57] It's phenomenal.

[00:45:59] If you have the right environment, if you're curating that, that culture.

[00:46:03] Such a, that's such a great observation because people say, look, we're letting our employees work from home because that's what they like.

[00:46:09] And they've told us and we're allowing them to do that.

[00:46:12] And so we're kind of giving them responsibility for their jobs and it's great and it's wonderful.

[00:46:17] So if everything's so great and so wonderful, why'd you just tell me like two minutes ago that you're having trouble attracting and keeping people?

[00:46:23] So which one is it?

[00:46:25] There are ways and you just use an excellent point or excellent example that even though we can't be in the shared space, we can still treat each other as individuals and be people and give people opportunities to have visibility and to make, you know, real, you know, live connections with people.

[00:46:42] Or we can choose to tolerate people just putting up an avatar and not participating in meetings.

[00:46:49] As soon as the avatar comes up or the mute button goes, they're not there anymore.

[00:46:52] They're in another room making coffee or playing with the dog.

[00:46:55] And even if they're not, that's the impression that they're leaving.

[00:46:59] And when week after day after day, week after week of seeing this, people just naturally get quiet because they're not encouraged to actively participate.

[00:47:09] They're not called out.

[00:47:10] Well, what would you do, Tim, if you were in my shoes and I'm the boss and you're so you're the boss?

[00:47:14] What would you what's the first thing you'd fix?

[00:47:16] Well, you know what?

[00:47:16] You're going to have an answer and other people are going to like hearing you say that answer.

[00:47:19] And they might even, you know, God forbid, laugh or something, you know.

[00:47:23] And so now we're just being people instead of, you know, talking heads.

[00:47:28] Well, and it goes back to what are leaders doing on a day to day basis to model what they want?

[00:47:37] I've.

[00:47:38] Oh, we're going to be relationship builders.

[00:47:40] I hear that all the time.

[00:47:42] And I'll be visiting some corporate headquarters somewhere or a manufacturing plant and I'll see the head person walk, just walk right past.

[00:47:50] Employees and not acknowledge their presence.

[00:47:53] I say, dude, you got to light up each time somebody.

[00:47:56] Hey, Jim, good to see you, man.

[00:47:57] What's going on?

[00:47:58] Hey, how about them Packers?

[00:48:00] Whatever it is, is it takes you two seconds.

[00:48:03] They don't forget that you do that, but they absolutely notice that you ignore them.

[00:48:06] Yeah.

[00:48:09] Or they're not there at all.

[00:48:11] No, exactly.

[00:48:12] Exactly.

[00:48:13] Don't count.

[00:48:14] My boss doesn't know me.

[00:48:15] You better believe he doesn't know you or she doesn't know you.

[00:48:17] Yeah.

[00:48:18] So I could talk about this forever, but to start the wrap up process, what do you see as the future, the evolution of the principles you've been promoting?

[00:48:29] Well, I do think that everything is one way or another kind of coming to a head in that things have become so commoditized now because things have become so simple for buyers, buyers of anything.

[00:48:43] You can go online, you can find any service, any product, anything, and know with a very high level of confidence that no matter who you're buying from, the thing is going to show up the next day.

[00:48:59] You're going to get what you paid for.

[00:49:00] You're going to get what you expected because business can't exist if we can't at least deliver on that.

[00:49:08] And as businesses come to struggle because other people might have more people or better manufacturing techniques or better servicing techniques or may be able to get their prices lower than yours, eventually a bottom gets hit.

[00:49:22] And once that bottom gets it, we can't suck any more money out of this and still make a profit.

[00:49:28] We have to change the way we do stuff.

[00:49:30] That's when people hit that rock bottom.

[00:49:33] And they say, well, how did you get people so motivated and hardly?

[00:49:35] I say, kind of easy.

[00:49:36] The business failed.

[00:49:40] We're all going to be out of work.

[00:49:42] We're going to lose jobs.

[00:49:42] That's a pretty strong motivator.

[00:49:44] But absent doubt, I mean, that's a job of leadership.

[00:49:48] We never want to hit that point.

[00:49:50] We know that's where our competitors are heading.

[00:49:53] They're all commodities just like we are.

[00:49:55] Let's be the different one.

[00:49:56] Let's be the one that gets out in front of everybody.

[00:49:58] So practically, how do you do that if the business, if you don't have that existential threat, but leadership says, hey, we want to go in this direction.

[00:50:05] What's the traction there?

[00:50:08] How do you create that?

[00:50:08] Well, as simple as it sounds, absolutely nothing happens until the people running the business make it the priority.

[00:50:17] The reputation of the business, the humanization of a business, again, that cannot be delegated to other people.

[00:50:25] That's the responsibility of leadership.

[00:50:27] That's job one of building the business that we want this to be and that we want the world to see.

[00:50:35] And getting them to move past this notion or at least have their eyes and their hearts open to the idea that ultimately we're known and respected or not known and not respected for who we are and not for what we do.

[00:50:48] And there's not a business on the planet that can't readily put a human face on their business.

[00:50:56] You call a business, you call a business, you go, please hold, you know, everything you need to know about that business in half a second.

[00:51:02] They're not staffed.

[00:51:04] They're not focused on being a source of delight for people.

[00:51:09] Thanks for calling.

[00:51:11] Your call is important.

[00:51:12] You know, all these things that we all hear every day.

[00:51:14] If you talk to the leaders of those businesses, they'll tell you how great they are.

[00:51:19] We're focused on all of our improvement here.

[00:51:23] But from the outside looking in, you're doing a pretty shitty job because all I remember it is nothing.

[00:51:30] And if I remember nothing about your business, it doesn't move forward.

[00:51:34] Or I hung up because I didn't want to talk to anybody because I heard what I needed to hear.

[00:51:39] Any business can make itself more likable.

[00:51:41] Yeah.

[00:51:42] Yeah.

[00:51:43] And one thing that I've seen a lot is this, people have this zero-sum approach is that, oh, if we do all this human stuff, it's going to be, it's going to cost us a lot of money.

[00:51:57] And it's going to be a drain on our revenue.

[00:52:01] But it's an and, yes, and.

[00:52:04] If we do this, we're going to get even better results.

[00:52:06] And what's interesting is from a go-to-market standpoint, which is something that all business leaders understand, they have their cost to go.

[00:52:16] They know what it costs to bring stuff to market.

[00:52:19] As we were at Harley, and there's a number of other companies that have done this and done it extraordinarily well, has greatly lowered their cost of goods.

[00:52:30] So, of what it takes to bring something to market because marketing costs come down when customers are finding you, where you're not paying, you know, having to advertise and lower prices to attract people.

[00:52:40] When the people you're already doing business with are telling other people that they should come and do business with you, selling costs go down, profit goes up.

[00:52:49] Why wouldn't we want this?

[00:52:51] Awesome.

[00:52:51] Well, Ken, it has been awesome to chat.

[00:52:54] And I look forward to continuing our conversation.

[00:52:58] Sure.

[00:52:59] Where can people find you?

[00:53:01] Easiest place to find me, my website is Ken, or excuse me, KenSpeaks.com, or you can send me an email at Ken at KenSpeaks.com.

[00:53:11] You can find me on LinkedIn.

[00:53:12] You can find me at the Tailgating with Geniuses podcast that I do.

[00:53:15] So, I'm out and about, but I will also say to them that there's no question that anybody can ask me through any form that I don't answer.

[00:53:22] Awesome.

[00:53:23] Well, I will make sure all those links go in the show notes and look forward to reconnecting again soon.

[00:53:28] And thank you so much for your insight and wisdom.

[00:53:31] Well, thank you.

[00:53:32] Thanks for having me, man.

[00:53:34] That wraps up another episode of the Working Well podcast.

[00:53:37] If you enjoyed the show, please rate, review, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:53:52] Thanks for tuning in.

[00:53:53] I'm Tim Boras for Fresh Wellness Group, and I look forward to seeing you on the next episode.

[00:53:59] Thank you.

[00:54:00] Bye.

[00:54:00] Bye.

[00:54:01] Bye.

[00:54:01] Bye.